I would be great if we could get a post without a great amount of errors.

So does this mean that Nixon called off the talks and Thelen is now using The Recorder to advertise partner books of business in hopes of getting some headhunter calls?

Suck it #2, I am #6.

Love,

Filthy Juice

They should just add Heller to the mix and make it a three way merger

Two things will happen from here: either Thelen will contract and become a SF construction firm, possibly with a DC branch office, or the construction group will leave in its entirety and the firm will dissolve.

Despite Elie's poor writing ability, at least Elie is able to make a good point every so often: Thelen should just come clean and remove the cloud of uncertainty hanging over everyone's head.

MysTTTal writing about TTThelen.

This is the blog we have won for ourselves.

2 - "I would be great if we could get a post without a great amount of errors."

O.K. I admit it. I can't tell whether this is tongue in cheek or you just don't know the difference between number and amount. If you are a lawyer then most likely it is the former, and if a law student, the latter, but since you don't use the acronym TTT I can't be sure of your status either. Clear it up.

what would likely happen to the NY office if SF and DC spin off?

Suck it, Mystall!

Go back to reading Teen Beat Magazine and shopping at the mall for new sun dresses.

ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I voted for Marin!

The departing partners were significant business generators. This is a heavy blow, especially as it shows that partners are beginning to depart the DC office, which had been something of a bright spot for the firm. You have to wonder whether any firm will want Thelen as a merger partner when its best partners are running for the exits. A merger with Thelen now means taking nothing but the dregs. Absent an increasingly unlikely merger, Thelen offices outside of SF will fall apart soon. Thelen NY is dying right now.

i voted for the girl in the catsuit

TAKE OFF THE AUDIO ADS "YOUVE BEEN SELECTED TO RECEIVE A FREE IPOD TOUCH".

Lat would have ended his entry after quoting Hiesse's email. But Mystal has to go on with punditry and insert the mid-level associate "hypothetical" email. If Mystal goes on like this, lawyers will stop responding to ATL's inquiries. (Lat has worked hard in making ATL a place important enough to have law firms respond to inquiries - that's a sign of success. Mystal is going to RUIN it.)

It's payday!!

I agree with 16 that the hypothetical e-mail is simply bizarre. Besides, if Heisse is staying with Thelen, why would he offer up his supporting associates to headhunters? His (real) comments should be reassuring to associates who are sticking (or are stuck) with the firm. Mystal's idea makes no sense.

I agree with 16 that the hypothetical e-mail is simply bizarre. Besides, if Heisse is staying with Thelen, why would he offer up his supporting associates to headhunters? His (real) comments should be reassuring to associates who are sticking (or are stuck) with the firm. Mystal's idea makes no sense.

I hope the response you've gotten since taking over this blog has been instructive to you Elie. I knew as soon as they posted your picture how this situation would evolve, but you seemed seriously clueless about the population you are dealing with. You better wake up.

Let's just be thankful that we finally got an Elie post that is about legal gossip, rather than a cut-and-paste from DailyKos.

I'm a Thelen associate and we were told last night about the Recorder article. The message the firm sent to us was "don't believe everything you read". Since the bulk of the article was factual information about partners and their billings, the only things I can see as being subject to the "don't believe everything you read" caution are the Heisse and Hallerud quotes.

Who hates the fatty? *I hate the fatty*
Who hates the fatty? *I hate the fatty*

22: Good for you on still holding out hope

Shouldn't it be "who's a 6th year" and not "whose a 6th year"?

Elie, if a headhunter calls you, please take the call. You would not be missed here.

News Flash: Word Processing and Maintenance have now taken over Thelen. Associates must clean toilets.

20, you knew this would be the situation "as soon as they posted [his] picture"? The population he's dealing with? What does that even mean? What does posting his picture have to do with anything?

22: why would you doubt the Heisse and Hallerud quotes?

ELIE,

REMEMBER WHAT DALE CARNEGIE SAID:

“ANY FOOL CAN CRITICIZE, CONDEMN, AND COMPLAIN – AND MOST FOOLS DO.”

SO DON’T MIND THE FEW ANONYMOUS AND COWARDLY FOOLS WHO HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO DO THAN MOCK YOUR WORK. IF ANY OF THEM COULD DO BETTER, THEY WERE WELCOME TO APPLY FOR THE JOB YOU RIGHTFULLY AND DESERVEDLY WON.

This article was only "new" news to the blogs and reporters trying to stir things up.

Valenstein officially left days ago and his pending departure has been known to the Firm for some time.

So, #22, I would not believe that Valenstein is leaving since he has already left. Also, other than the quotes the bulk of the article was SPECULATIVE information regarding the worth of various partner's books of business.

Elie, when posting in the comments (see #30) please layoff the all caps. Most people consider that to be screaming.

22, you obviously don't know Heisse or Hallerud at all if you have any doubt whatsoever about those quotes.

30: We're welcome to apply for Elie's job? Where do I send my application?

22 here. 33, Weitzel was also a partner who was allegedly just as much a Thelen guy as Heisse and Hallerud. Go walk by Weitzel's office if you want to see how much loyalty counts these days.

I think the "don't believe everything you hear" was a preemptive statement before Thelen knew what the article would actually say. I highly doubt Livingston was trying to warn associates and staff not to believe Heisse and Hallerud when they say they have plans to stay. Weitzel may have been around for a while, but he never showed the same loyalty, so can't be compared on the same level.

I've previously told Elie that his lack of proofreading makes the Baby Jesus cry. He didn't listen. I find the typos annoying, but I think we are stuck with Elie. I think the only constructive thing we can do is make suggestions for better content. The harping on grammar is pointless.

1) Like the Adler, Semerdjian and Steiner group departures, Valenstein announced a while ago, and his departure was known to Nixon - so this shouldn't impact the discussions much.

2) As a Thelen associate who's been turning down recruiter calls, its nice to see partners with big books of business doing the same.

3) "Associates need lifeboats too. Sometimes just knowing that you have one can help you weather the storm." This is very true. One of the reasons I've been able to turn down those recruiting calls is that I know I have my lifeboat if it comes to that. I assume whoever the associates who've been working with Heisse are, they know that as well.

4) The really interesting thing is that while the actual departure dates have been staggered, the news of Steiner (well, everyone knew it was only a matter of when, with him), Valenstein, and Adler broke internally at roughly the same time (about a month ago). There hasn't been much scuttlebutt about partner defections since then - so I'd guess that there won't be too many more until the merger either happens or fails.

3 - no mention of O'Neal in the article makes me doubt this is a Thelen PR piece.

38 -

Do you see any lifeboats for incoming first years?

36, thanks for outing the memo's author. And dude, seriously, try to be less of a shill. Weitzel started at Thelen as a summer associate. He was about as long term as they come, rising up through the associate ranks to make partner and then become one of the prime rainmakers at the firm. Neither Heisse nor Hallerud can claim the same, so your point has no basis.

38: Since the Adler, Semerdjian, Steiner and Valenstein "group departures" actually occurred, its obvious that many partners with big books of business have not been turning down recruiter calls. Associates without any business would be wise to follow their lead. Nothing good has been heard about Thelen in months (years?). The last good news was the Brown Raysman merger, and we all saw how that turned out. Thelen is a firm about to go bust. Get out now or prepare to get fired like so many other associates already have been. Only a fool stays at a failing shop, singing about the virtues of loyalty as the place collapses.

The only lucky people were next year's summer associates to-be, who won't now have to face the prospect of being no-offerred as there will be no summer class. The only bright spot of the many partner departures is that there will be far fewer client conflicts to clear if Thelen can ever find a merger partner willing to take on a weak firm.

how loyal can I guy that left really be?

They're all loyal until they leave.

Partners have no loyalty to associates - they'll take you if and only if it's convenient and costs them basically nothing. My practice group (in a v20 firm) has suffered several partner departures over the last few years, and not one took a single associate with them. Be warned.

42 - you don't understand 38. 38's point is that the rumors (and internal knowledge) of departures start well before they are announced. Since there are no new rumors post Adler, Valenstein, et. al., it seems likely that most Thelen partners are going to hang around, at least long enough to see if the pending merger is going to happen. If the merger gets aborted, then things could change. (See, Heller...)

46: You're right, "most Thelen partners" are going to stick around to see if a merger comes about. But that's because they don't have enough business to get hired elsewhere. In this market, you need a good book to move because firms today aren't taking chances on any partner without good business. The fact that loads of partners with little or no business are "choosing" to stick around Thelen because they can't go anywhere else means nothing. This is why no merger will happen, unless Nixon wants to be charitable.

Sounds almost identical to the Heller collapse. I wonder who is next?

47: The point of the Recorder article is that there ARE partners at Thelen who are sticking around and who have a good book of business. This refutes your position that the only folks left at Thelen are those who have no choice but to stay. Doesn't anyone believe in loyalty anymore?

The article's clearly a PR piece by Thelen's construction group to position itself to leave together. There's really not much left at the firm at this point--China and some construction in DC; energy in NY; IP and construction in CA. Valenstein's departure is of a far greater magnitude than Weitzel's.

Once again, a bunch of ATL amateurs who don't know anything about Thelen...yawn.

50, you're such a cynic...just because Thelen's national manager of PR sent out an all firm memo in advance of a Recorder article that reads like an auction of practice groups you think that it's a PR piece?

52: Cynicism, realism . . . it's really not clear. There is no question Thelen put this out there to counter any negative press from the DC departures. It is a really bad sign when a member of the partnership council is abandoning ship. Read between the lines; he probably knows inside information on the firm's direction and either didn't agree with the plan(s) or saw impending doom. We can all pray for the former, but I'm betting on the latter. What Thelen needs to do is put out truly good news, not just confirmations that major construction partners are staying. Some evidence that the firm is healthy and not on life support. Here are some suggestions:

"A merger is imminent."
"We will survive in totality absent a merger."
"We are way ahead of projections for 2008."
"All incoming associates will be starting on January 5."

53, are you trying to tell us that firm management hasn't said any of those things? According to some comments on ATL Thelen's management has been keeping everyone informed of what has happened and what the firm is doing.

Why don't Thelen and Heller save one another? Theller has a nice ring to it ...

"There is no question Thelen put this out there to counter any negative press from the DC departures."

Yeah, right. Because the Recorder is always at the ready to write good things about Thelen. Good one.

22/35, I hear what you're saying about Weitzel, and that's a big part of why his departure was such a shock and felt like such a betrayal. I get that. But from what I've seen since, his departure has only galvanized the remaining former west coast TMJB partners into sticking around and fighting for the life of this firm. They care very much about this place and, yes, the people who work here.

Actually the article was thrown out for the benefit of headhunters. Headhunters are trying to continue and continue to stir the pot to get more departures, and thus make more money.

The thing is, can people please stop all the Thelen bashing? This is getting old and boring. They are talking deeply with Nixon, and also talking with at least one other firm. It's too early to expect a merger to be announced by the end of this month, but middle of October is reasonable.

If any deals fall through, we'll know asap just like when other possible mergers fell through.

Until then, please STFU. Geez.

"talking deeply"? You write like Elie.

"Thelen offices outside of SF will fall apart soon."

Not Thelen SV. Thelen SV is Thelen's most stable and productive office, and the "jewel in the crown" to a merger. They have big IP and commercial lit business (headlined by Hynix and ITC patent lit cases) and busy attorneys from top to bottom.

Can people who know jacksh*t about Thelen stop posting obviously false statements like "Thelen offices outside of SF will fall apart soon."

Thelen offices outside of SF will fall apart soon.

Can someon PLEASE tell me, what is a "Thelen"? Thanks.

20 - spot on. Elie, you got a number of dead beat racists on this site. That said, please proof read.

40 - no, which is why I've been trying to help my summer associate mentee find another firm, even though she did get an offer from us, and even though she's a person I'd love to have as a colleague. If you aren't already in here, you'd have to be nuts to buy in now, and if you don't already have strong connections to particular partners or major deals/litigations (as the incoming first years wouldn't) it would be pretty hard to arrange for lifeboats.

42, you're completely missing the point., None of the departures was a secret, none of them (since Weitzel) was a real shock (i.e. no rumors, out of the blue, can't believe he left). Associates knew and were talking about them before they were announced officially. Most of us have people in the know who we're close to - one of the good things about working somewhere with good partner-associate relationships; if an associate isn't close with a partner who will keep them up to date, they're close with an associate who is - so most of us have pretty decent access to information. And the rumor mill is not churning with news of future partner defections coming down the pike. If the merger doesn't happen, then - like Heller - that will probably follow. But since the partner defections that we're talking about were known long before now, they don't alter the likelihood of a merger one bit, in either direction.

As for partner loyalty to associates, it may be that you're working at a place where partners will happily screw over associates for a little more cash. Or it may simply be that you aren't valued enough to have engendered that loyalty. I do know that within my department, the partners are working hard to make sure that some of the associates who might be "on the bubble" in a merger are staffed onto and become indespensible parts of large, highly profitable projects, so that they can be protected. That bespeaks a certain concern for associate well-being that, I guess, you aren't used to seeing where you work. All of which is why a whole bunch of us with superficially better options (for superficial people who look only at the relative dollars, or prestige) are willing to ride it out. I suspect we all have our backup plans - you'd need to be crazy not to. But they're backup plans, not immediate moves, because what we have at Thelen is worth fighting for - or, in our case, waiting it out for.

47 - if "no merger will happen" then Nixon would have pulled out of the discussions a long time ago. And as the article points out, there are plenty of partners with big books still at Thelen - including folks not mentioned in the article. At this point, the merger will probably sink or swim on conflicts or compensation - not on whether Nixon wants Thelen.

63, posts by the PR department are bad enough; at least keep them brief.

63 - thank you. As a fellow Thelen associate, I think you captured my thinking exactly. Why would I leave here right now to go to some "better firm" when I'm busy here with actual good work (i.e. not the hours of document review most of the Thelen-haters are getting right now at their firms)

50, I don't think the Recorder or Daily Journal are interested in writing PR pieces when law firms are on the brink of imploding. I sure as hell don't think that Thelen is volunteering anything at this point. If you read the quotes, they don't reveal much and Heisse's was sent via email. It doesn't sound like he had a sitdown with the reporter. Read the article, with the exception of the people in DC leaving, which broke earlier in the week, it's a re hash. The info is from recruiters who remain anonymous. Chaos is good for recruiters, it brings them more business and they are not accountable for their statements. It reads like a rundown of which partners are valuable, but the info was gathered from outside sources (recruiters), not those within the firm, particularly Heisse. The article doesn't benefit Thelen in any way, which rules out PR. I doubt Livingston, or anyone else in the firm assisted, they have other things to worry about, like finding a new job. The piece reads like a treasure map for headhunters (the source of the article), nothing more.

50, I don't think the Recorder or Daily Journal are interested in writing PR pieces when law firms are on the brink of imploding. I sure as hell don't think that Thelen is volunteering anything at this point. If you read the quotes, they don't reveal much and Heisse's was sent via email. It doesn't sound like he had a sitdown with the reporter. Read the article, with the exception of the people in DC leaving, which broke earlier in the week, it's a re hash. The info is from recruiters who remain anonymous. Chaos is good for recruiters, it brings them more business and they are not accountable for their statements. It reads like a rundown of which partners are valuable, but the info was gathered from outside sources (recruiters), not those within the firm, particularly Heisse. The article doesn't benefit Thelen in any way, which rules out PR. I doubt Livingston, or anyone else in the firm assisted, they have other things to worry about, like finding a new job. The piece reads like a treasure map for headhunters (the source of the article), nothing more.

Right on 62.

I only disagree with 63's post to this extent: I *do* think the firm will try to bring along the incoming first years in any merger, if it can. These people already proved themselves to be very capable SAs, and firms need people at the most junior level and at junior assoc billing rates. Of course, I'm just spitballin' here, and that's not much solace to those first years.

But 63 is spot on about associate-partner relations and the reciprocal loyalty that is felt here. The partners in that article, and more like them, would and could have made a hell of a lot more $ elsehwere if that's all they wanted out of law practice. They've chosen to stay here because they like it here, notwithstanding the allure of more money and "prestige" at other places. And, despite having the same offered to me, I'm choosing to stay with them.

It should be pointed out that when the Weitzel crew (Weitzel and three other partners) left, they brought with them almost all of the associates who spent a significant portion of their time on Weitzel matters. I believe only one associate and one junior partner weren't brought over and even they were extended offers (but chose to not accept).

So to those who have said that Thelen (and ex-Thelen) partners won't take care of associates, that's not supported by recent events. It is true that firm management has done a horrible job of keeping Thelen folks updated on what is going on and haven't done a thing to reassure anyone, but if the Weitzel crew is any measure, Thelen partners are above average in taking care of associates.

Two of the V81 - 100 are merging.

71 - well nixon is 74. care to give any other clues?

69 - 63 here. I didn't mean that the first years wouldn't be brought along in a merger. I meant that if there's no merger, then they are probably screwed, unfortunately.

70 - How many people went over to Orrick with Weitzel?

anyone have advice for incoming first-years??

74: There was Weitzel, Glascock, Spielberg and Sherman as partners and then they brought with them eight associates, including two first years, and one paralegal. A junior partner was also offered a position but there was something about the offer he didn't like so he declined. It's unclear whether one of the midlevel associates who didn't go was offered a position at Orrick, but he's leaving for another firm anyway.

75 - if you're asking, I assume you've already done the only really viable thing (look for other offers) and haven't had much success. Call your associate and partner mentors from the summer, tell them you appreciate that they aren't in a position to give you much information, and ask them for advice. If they know anyone who's hiring, they'll probably point you in that direction. I can tell you that every SA mentor that I've spoken to (and I was one) is sick about the crap hand you guys have been dealt, so as long as you present it as a call to ask for advice (actually, e-mail first and ask if it would be ok to call) people will probably be happy to do what they can for you.

Other options include signing on as a contract attorney and using that as a way to get your foot in the door at a firm you get placed at (in fact, I've heard that a couple of first-years to be are already working at Thelen as contract attorneys brought in on various doc review or other projects, but don't quote me on that), and looking for an in with firms that are trying to expand in the location you're interested in. Get in touch with your law school recruiting offices and ask if they know of any.

In NY, I've heard Thompson Hine is looking to increase the size of its office, but I couldn't begin to guess what that means in terms of incoming first years.

And if you want to talk to me on the phone, just give me a call. Not going to throw the digits up there for all the world to see, but if you were in the NY office, you probably heard me talking about Fantasy Football, since I run the firm league.

One further clue - I was Seth Mastin's associate mentor.

77/78:

do you see the firm collapsing / incoming SA offers being rescinded if this Nixon merger doesn't work out?

I'm not 77/78, but if you want my take, here it is:

I know there's at least one other firm that Thelen is negotiating with in parallel to Nixon, though I'd guess they're a little behind Nixon at the moment. If Nixon falls through, then it'll probably be a race against time to get the 2d firm looking solid enough that partners can afford to wait that one out as well.

If both fall through, or the second one doesn't get firmed up quickly enough, I'd bet on a second waive of partner departures. I don't think the firm would completely collapse (depending on who left, and from where), but I can see the firm paring down to, say, SF, SV and a small NY presence to service clients - with SF and NY looking radically different then they do right now and SV being the least changed from a personnel perspective (again this all depends on who goes and when.) If that doomsday scenario becomes a reality, I'd guess that almost all SA offers would be rescinded.

I'm an associate, I have no idea what is actually happening, but if I had to guess, this is how I think it would play out. Hopefully it doesn't come to that

80, if you were an incoming associate, what would you be doing right now?

77/78: Why if you're so afraid to use your own name would you refer to someone else? What if Seth Mastin doesn't want his name mentioned here?

81, I am an associate in the SF office. I think that if the Nixon merger falls apart you can assume that there will be no merger with any other firm. See, e.g., what happened to Heller.

If Nixon passes, they will be doing it because they realize that they can pick the cherries without having to take all the deadwood. Any other firm that may be in merger negotiations with Thelen will do the same and then they'll have a bidding war for only those partners that they think will be accretive to their respective firm.

The only way I see an other firm playing into the mix is if the other firm says yes before Nixon responds definitively (yes or no).

If there's no merger, you can assume that by year end Thelen as a firm will no longer exist. Just my guess, of course, but there is already tremendous pressure within the valuable practice areas to jump ship and if something doesn't happen soon the folks in those groups are going to start moving on their own.

So if I were an incoming first year, I'd pray for a merger where the acquiring firm will accept the incoming Thelen first years but I'd be devoting a significant amount of time right now to finding another firm to work for.

By the way, 81, I'm 83 and I'm not 80.

83, do you have advice on how to pursue job hunting? hiring seems so slow / dead right now

85, you should talk to your career services people at school and then reach out to partners that you worked with as a summer to let them know you're concerned and willing to talk about options. If the partners have moved to another firm, don't be shy about asking them to help you get an interview at their new firm.

77: Thompson Hine recently brought over 2 Thelen partners in NY.

Career services offices are next to useless. They just keep saying Thelen told them they will not rescind offers. Very comforting to hear right now.

Even if a merger goes through, is it likely the acquiring firm would take on extra first years?

I second your concern, 88. It seems like whether there's a merger or not, incoming 1st-years are screwed?

I think that it is unlikely that the acquiring firm will take on all of Thelen's first years, but there may be a need for some. I can assure you of this-those who are negotiating a merger on Thelen's behalf are not going to have incoming first years as a primary concern.

87 - I know. I was one of the associates asked to join them (which is how I "heard" they were expanding in NY. That sound you hear is me saying a tearful goodbye to the last shreds of my anonymity). Hardest decision of my life, since the people who went to Thompson were two of my favorite people, and I really enjoyed the work I did with them. Thompson is tremendously lucky to have them.

82, I'm not "afraid" to mention my name (if there's a Thelen person in NY who doesn't know who I am by now, I'll be shocked). I just don't feel like putting my name and contact information out to anyone external, since I can't see what good would come of it. As for Seth - if it upset him, I'd be sorry about it. But given that all I've said about him was "he was a Thelen summer associate" and he no doubt has it on his resume, I can't imagine why it would have (which is why I felt comfortable doing it in the first place).

88, I can tell you that when Thelen and Brown Raysman merged, all incoming first year offers were honored, and the ensuing associate shakeout happened about a year down the road, after the combined firm had a chance to see what the "combined firm" actually was and needed. My guess - and its only a guess - is that the same process would be played out if Thelen merges: first year offers honored, some layoffs down the road. Hopefully, not too many of you guys are still counting on the offer (I've been told a number have landed at other firms), which would make that even more likely.

Doodz, I heard about massive numbers of GULCers getting no-offered in Philly. True or False?

91, don't you think that thelen is now in a MUCH weaker position than in it was before the thelen-brown raysman merger? making the likelihood that anybody is gonna look out for the thelen first-years pretty low?

87 = http://thelen.com/index.cfm?section=attorney&function=Read&contactID=1543&search_practice_id=0

now is it fun being outed?

94-

Holy crap, it's Malvin from Wargames!

http://www.verysimple.com/personal/deezen/pictures.html

95's post brought it to the point of being funny. Definitely not a candidate for a hot lawyers contest.

93 - I honestly don't know. Again, my guess is that first year offers would be honored - but that's all it is, a guess.

94 - I don't particularly care one way or the other. You seem to have some beef, so if I offended you somehow, I'm sorry - perplexed, but sorry, since it wasn't my intent. And if you want to give me a call to discuss, you obviously know my number.

95 - nice reference. Usually I just get Joe Torres from channel 7 news. http://www.cshgreenwich.org/ewebeditpro4/upload/Joe-Torres-02.07.08.jpg

Do you ever have judges scream "Mr. Potatohead, MR. POTATOHEAD, interrogatories are not secrets!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNiiBrEHBWA

Any updates? The suspense of who will merge with Thelen is killing me!

Hahhaha I like this!.