Second!

Does this mean that Bristol did not birth the Mongoloid, as the fringe lefty bloggers had previously insisted?

I'm a solid democratic party voter, and I don't understand why this is an issue?

I'm the father.

who's the baby daddy?

Not that it's an issue or anything, but this is great stuff for the party that hypocritically beats everyone over the head with its morals and is repeatedly embarrassed by sex scandals

The vetting wasn't screwed up. McCain knew about this. This is the Times demonstrating that they can't be taken seriously anymore.

If only the media was as interested in Rezko, Ayers, Wright, etc. as they are in a 17 year old. This coverage smacks of sexism and desperation.

8 - would you like some cheese with that whine?

This doesn't mean that Bristol Palin did not have the downs syndrome baby. This just suggests that she's more promiscuous than anybody could have imagined.

Or if that's not true, then it means she was sneaking sex in the house while she was supposed to be bed ridden with mono, and it means that her Sarah Palin is stupid enough to give a speech, get on a plane, layover in Seattle, and then drive 45 minutes to a small town hospital after her water broke. She's a 44 year old woman giving birth to special needs child 1 month early! What a retard.

Ladies and gentlemen, abstinence-only education!

"The vetting wasn't screwed up. McCain knew about this."

LOL. It looks like we have a McCain insider commenting.

"If only the media was as interested in Rezko, Ayers, Wright, etc."

2xLOL. Because those are the real issues...

Abstinence only education rocks.

Just think of all of the abortions we could prevent with a little birth control for everyone.

Josh Marshall:

A lot of attention is being given to Gov. Palin's daughter's situation. The much bigger deal is the expanding trooper-gate investigation, the fact that Palin lied in her Friday speech about her purported opposition to the Bridge to Nowhere, her apparent former membership in the secessionist Alaska Independence Party, and more. Individually, you can come to your own judgment about how consequential these stories are. What they show pretty clearly now -- in addition to the news that the McCain campaign is only now sending in a vetting team -- is that John McCain didn't do any serious vetting of Palin before he invited her to join his ticket and, he hopes, become Vice President of the United States.

Fundamentally, of course, this is about John McCain. And the real issue here is what this slapdash decision says about his judgment.

8:

Resko - comprehensively covered
Ayers - comprehensively covered
Wright - comprenhensively covered

Let's see if the hastily chosen, unvetted Harriet Miers can survive any scrutiny. Maybe a day or two of press? Is that fair?

totally sad and predictable how the left wing media is furiously trying to tear Palin apart by every means possible, including going after her children. They are embarrassed that they were caught flat-flooted by this nomination and are desperate to define this woman in any negative light that will stick, all while insisting that her historic nomination is not really historic because she does not toe the line on left wing orthodoxy.

Even if the Governor isn't covering for her daughter's pregnancy, she's likely covering up someone's--there is no way she was actually pregnant in those pics, especially seeing how big she was when she was pregnant with her other kids. Maybe her older son knocked up his girlfriend, and that's why he joined the Army.

I would hope that after this, Palin would change her stance on abstinence-only education. In fact, after going through the experience of having a baby with Down's Syndrome and watching a teenager have a baby, she MIGHT come to an understanding of why abortion should be an available option to others, especially considering that many don't have the same resources as she does.

But of course, that would mean admitting that she doesn't know what's best for every other person in the country based on her personal relationship with jesus.

This site didn't take too long to go up:

http://www.vpilf.com/

10 - good point.

I think it's safe to criticize and second-guess decisions like what to do when pregnent when no competent expert in the field would advise the person to do it in the first place.

This is also someone who was flying routinely in pressurized aircraft while (supposedly) pregnent.

17 - Actually, her "historic nomination" is not historic because its not historic. It happened before in 1984. 24 years ago.

If McCain/Palin win, that will be historic. But the nomination itself, not so much.

Palin & family = White trash

White trash to VP!

Sartorial question: Hair plugs or toupee? I really want to project that sophisticated New Jersey used-car salesman look.

"'If only the media was as interested in Rezko, Ayers, Wright, etc.'

2xLOL. Because those are the real issues..."

Uh...they are as much of a real issue as the pregnancy of the daughter of the VP candidate.

17 - are you auditioning for FOX "News" with that post?

17: i think we all agree that the nomination is pretty historic... historically disastrous!

*rimshot*

17, are you kidding me? this is the same media that spent days discussing obama's patriotism in light of whether he was wearing a flag pin on his suit.

what do you think the response would be if obama had been a member of a secessionist group? if the obamas had a teenager who was pregnant? it would be getting a hell of a lot more coverage than palin is receiving.

Can anyone tell me why Stroock is so maligned on these forums? An acquaintance of mine interviewed with them and said they seemed friendly and helpful.

Obama fathered two black children! That is the real news here, people. Palin believes in Jesus; case closed, no scrutiny required.

17: Yes, the same media that harassed John Kerry for ordering Swiss Cheese instead of Cheez Whiz on his Philly steak sandwich.

this is 17. the nomination is historic because she is the first woman on a GOP ticket. also, ferraro is a man so she doesn't count.

obama is running for president; palin's children are not. even obama himself said candidate's children should be off limits.

Obama will win this election. In contrast to other elections, when the GOP successfully sold their candidate's character and maligned the opposition's choice, their PR has suffered in this one. Without this moral superiority, they will lose. Period. Their policies are, and always have been, awful. They needed to rely on character -- Dole's war experience, Bush's straightforward blue-collar cowboy spin, Reagan's charisma -- and they can't do that this time.

24 - agreed.

So the party of "family values" now tells us that Bristol Palin's two out of wedlock babies, redneck babydaddy, drunken father, and McCain's thieving, junkie wife are "private matters."

Better come up with better talking points then that . . .

17:

The MSM is not "attacking" Palin, you moron. It's newsworthy for a number of angles, the least of which is that her daughter is pregnant. It's newsworthy because it's evidence of how hasty this pick was. If McCain had considered this at all, they would have dropped this story to a friendly reporter months ago (she is 5 months pregnant). It would have been old news by the time she got the pick. As it stands now, this is damage control after the fact. Complete incompetance. And if you don't think your bible banging friends won't judge this poor girl, you are delusional. This hurts McCain because he represents the party of intolerance. Don't make this into something it's not - it is not an attack on this poor child. (Not to mention the fact that her mother should have considered the effect of this late coming revelation before she accepted the nomination. Family first, indeed.)

So the party of "family values" now tells us that Bristol Palin's two out of wedlock babies, redneck babydaddy, drunken father, and McCain's thieving, junkie wife are "private matters."

Better come up with better talking points then that . . .

If you really think that "family values" means your family never makes a mistake, then you are truly ignorant. Family values is about how you and your family address situations. In this case, a 17 year old made a mistake (whether you consider it was having sex or doing so without contraception) and now the Palins' family values are kicking in and they are supporting their daughter, she's having the baby (valuing life), and not demonizing the daughter or the boyfriend.

For all of democrats' talk about loving people, they sure like to kick people when they are down...even if the person is a 17 year old girl not running for office, while at the same time wanting to throw up any smokescreen when the actual candidate or leader (e.g. Bill Clinton) has an affair. When Republicans find a candidate (as opposed to family member) acting improperly, they deal with it.

17 again. I don't really see how anyone can argue that this coverage isn't a direct attack on Palin's daughter and on Palin as a mother. The message of the coverage is clear: the daughter is a ho; the mother is a mother of a ho (so is she really a good mother?)---> she is unfit to be the VP nominee. Honestly, I would think all of you who are so so highly educated would see this for what it is: highly misogynistic. I can assure you that if this pile-on continues for too long, it will backfire and play to McCain/Palin's benefit (people will start to feel sorry for her as they did for Hillary)

"Uh...they are as much of a real issue as the pregnancy of the daughter of the VP candidate."

Exactly. None of them matter.

One thing that is truly offensive is the demonizing of a woman who chose to have and raise a baby with downs syndrome.

39: Please. You and I both know that raising a daughter who doesn't use contraception and engages in unsafe sexual activity at 17 is a failing, and possibly even a moral one. There is not a single sane adult that will argue that her future baby is getting a good deal: no 17-year-old is mentally prepared for the rigors of parenting, and, quite frankly, I think that the child should be put up for adoption.

Palin's abstinence-only policies have failed her own daughter. What's more telling than that? Family first, indeed.

The reason the pregnancy is interesting is because it's so unexpected. VP picks are usually people who have been extremely well vetted, almost to the point of boring. Whatever you feel about the pregnancy or the candidates, this just seems a little odd. That's what's fueling the interest.

To clarify, it is truly offensive to demonize a woman because she chose to have and raise a baby knowing the baby has downs syndrome.

Wow, is all I can say. Let me see if I have this correct.
The party that HATES gays send Larry Craig and his 'wide stance' to congress year in and year out.
Family values party is putting up a candidate at the top of the ticket who was an adulterer, horrible father (proven by the fact that his son's despise him and would probably run him over in a tractor if they could get away with it); at the bottom of the ticket they put up an abstinence only education first term governor of Eastern Russia (according to Cindy) with a pregnant teenage daughter. I thought the Republicans were the organized ones. This pick lacks good judgment.

43: Are you then arguing that a moral parent necessarily has children who don't make moral mistakes? That's absurd. And, why should the baby be put up for adoption if (possibly both sets) grandparents are willing to help?

Questions.

1. We know what Palin's family values are. But what about her daughter? What are her family values?

2. Does Palin's daughter want to marry this guy, or does she feel pressured to marry this guy because her mother is the vice presidential nominee?

I ask these questions only because I don't think we know, as 39 writes, that "the Palins' family values are kicking in." As far as I know, Bristol Palin could be pressured--from her family, from the media, from the situation--to have the child and to marry her soon-to-be-baby's father.

The whole issue Bristol Palin being pregnant is incredibly irrelevant to her mother's candidacy.

My concern is that her anti-choice mother might be forcing her to keep the child to placate the neocon voter base.

47: I never said anything about general morality. I said that this was a large failing on her part -- both in terms of policy and family.

If you raise a child who, at 17, becomes pregnant and has kids, then you are partially at fault. That suggests a parental failure. When I was 17, I knew that I could impregnate a woman by engaging in unsafe sex, and I knew that I wasn't qualified to be a parent. Period. My parents instilled those strong values and ideas in me.

I think that, ultimately, this will hurt the kid. Even with grandparents, there will always be a psychologically troubling aspect to his relationship with his parents, both of whom are too young to be good parents.

Memo

To: Sarah Palin
From: American Citizen

You have to start controlling your kids before you can start telling the Navy what to do.

43-- If you actually have any children, I expect that you understand that they are individuals, who make individual decisions (and sometimes mistakes). They are not robots whose every move is programmed by their parents, and oftentimes even the best parents have children who do things that disappoint them. It really is a shame that so many people apparently think this girl is fair game as a political pawn.

43, you know The Obama's mother was 18 when she had him, right? It seems to have worked out okay that he was born, even though she was a teenager and his dad ditched them.

I think Homer Simpson said it best:
D'Oh.

This is really great. Just when I thought Obama screwed himself out of winning by picking Biden as a running mate, McCain goes and flushes his campaign down the toilet by picking a virtually no-experience running mate who turns out to have a pregnant teen daughter and a penchant for abusing her power re state troopers.

McCain could have won if he picked Romney. Now, Obama would have to be caught smoking crack or abusing his children to lose!! Whew Hoo!!!!!!

48: those are interesting questions. But, then it presents another interesting question related to this "parental failure" argument people are making. If Sarah Palin and her husband are supposed to be instilling family values, why shouldn't they further try to instill them now--they value life, not abortion, and taking responsibility and raising a child you conceived. Call it pressure or not, as long as the parents don't abandon their daughter and grandchild, that seems to be a fair approach to parenting: we told you about sex, that you shouldn't have it, but you've done that and these are the consequences that we will help you to deal with as best we can, in a way that lines up with our values.

The "moral" failures of the children of parents who preach "morals" sell papers. Can't be helped.

52: this is not "a mistake." Engaging in what was probably brief, unsatisfying sex without the use of contraception is a HUGE mistake, and one that's directly tied to Palin's policies. What if the president of MADD's child was caught drunk driving? It shows a considerable failing.

what i find ironic is that the campaign spins this as Bristol "deciding" to keep the baby, when her own mother would take the ability to make that decision away from others.

also, Creationists to VP!

This concept that Palin has abused her power re a state trooper has no basis in the factual record. It is one guy, who was fired for failing to do his job, making these accusations. In fact, Palin has welcomed any questions on that issue and has addressed them, without any factual retort from the other side. The guy who lost his (political) appointment has a record that speaks for itself and either confirms or denies Palin's objective reasons for giving that appointment to someone else. No one has pointed out anything controverting Palin's reasons for finding someone new for that post (note: the guy fired was not Palin's ex-brother-in-law, but a guy who claims Palin wanted him to fire the ex-brother-in-law).

60 - interesting. Why, then, is the legislature investigating the claims? Many times, where there is smoke, there is also fire. We'll see what the investigation turns up.

60: keep reading. First she didn't put any pressure on him at all, then she admitted (after a taped phone call was released) that some of her aids may have done some things that gave the impression of pressure (of course these aides would have acted without any direction from her). We'll see what happens in her deposition, which will occur sometime during her vice-presidential campaign. Story or not, this is a collossal mess that McCain voluntarily walked into. You can't control media, but you can control who you pick for VP. Epic failure.

this is 17 again.

like I said, grasping at straws for anything, anything, anything that will stick. the state trooper scandal is bogus. the experience attack only heightens awareness of Obama's weakness. the "mother of a ho" angle WILL backfire since it is a child we are talking about and Americans are not as cynical and brutal as the average journalist from NYC or D.C.

I want to hear from the father to be. Is he truly on board with this, or does he bolt after the election and before the baby is born?

61, 62: we will see what the investigation turns up, but it is still an investigation that, to my knowledge and from what you have posted, has revealed no wrongdoing on anyone's part so far.

Is Kent really going to try to hear cases while under indictment? That's ridiculous. Can the circuit court or the chief judge or someone suspend him pending his trial?

It would be a mess if he tried to stay active. Who would be happy with their case being assigned to him? And can he really hear a case tried by the AUSA's in the office that just indicted him?

17/63... I don't know if you've noticed this, but you are the ONLY person on this thread that has called the girl a "ho." (Repeatedly, I might add.) Everyone else is looking at the actual relevant story, which is that a VP nominee who preaches abstinence-only education and anti-choice politics turns up with, whoops! a pregnant teenage child. YOUR'E the one trying to turn it into a smear against the girl. So please stop.

53, I'm an Obama supporter and I agree with your argument.

That said, care to defend/explain this (see link below). It's an issue that speaks to Palin's JUDGMENT, and is therefore fair game. If this how she actually thinks or makes decisions in a recent (only five months ago) stressful situation, is she really who we want as our Vice President, especially given John McCain's age....?

http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/4628/sarahpalinla4.png

I'm not sure how Palin's pro-life policies are somehow lessened in all of this. (Anti-choice? really? then, are you anti-life?). Certainly, this board isn't filled with people who believe Palin's daughter should just abort this baby. Someone has mentioned adoption, which is a great choice if that's what the family wants to do.

68: can you describe the picture? I'm wary of opening links for obvious reasons.

I'm sorry, is there something wrong with society letting 17 year old girls know that they should not be getting pregnant? As far as I'm concerned, she should feel ashamed, as should her parents for not raising her to be smart about her sexual health.

Yes, teenagers make mistakes, but getting pregnant is probably THE most avoidable. I have no sympathy for anyone here. Keep it in your pants till you're an adult.

I'm curious to hear the Pubs defend Palin's revolving door stance on the Bridge to Nowhere (and of course she kept money given to her even as she flip-flopped on the issue).

Did McCain really do this poor of a job vetting his VP pick? I'm far more concerned about his judgment than Palin's daughter.

17 - put down the kool-aid and face facts. McCain done screwed up, and in the middle of his own convention, too.

71: Agreed. And I think that this would have been avoided without Palin's draconian and dogmatic abstinence-only policy. Kids have healthy sexual desires and there are unhealthy and healthy ways to express them. Palin's policy encouraged the former, because it created information asymmetries about contraception, birth control, and the implications of coitus.

There is no one as morally judgmental as a leftist who thinks he smells hypocracy. By the way, 49, I'd think someone posting on this blog would at least know what "neocon" means, rather than just using it in the general lefty style of referring to strawmen Republicans in general.

69: i think abortion is a horrible thing and would never advise someone to have one. i also don't think i have the right to make that decision for anyone but myself.

which am i...pro-choice? pro-life?

69: i think abortion is a horrible thing and would never advise someone to have one. i also don't think people should be allowed to have abortions.

which am i...pro-choice? pro-life?

They did their vetting just fine. They actually thought this was a good idea.

My cynical side tells me it was just a ploy to somehow make the criminalized-abortion agenda look less hypocritical by picking a woman whose life seems to be a shining, self-righteous example about how to live your life without abortion OR birth control (both of which are terrible sins).

59 -- Good point.

67-- As the highly educated, politically correct person you no doubt are, I cannot believe you don't see the underlining insinuation of the coverage (i.e., the "ho" angle-- maybe you need to brush up on your Derrida). That is the hook and the subtext-- not dry and boring "abstinence only" or "choice."

The girl's actions do nothing to undermine Palin's policies. First, it was the girl who made her own choice, as teenage girls are known to do. What the daughter does does not make the mother a hypocrite. Second, the daughter's actions for many people may reinforce the benefit of abstinence (I know this may be hard to understand). Third, the family is supporting the daughter despite what happened and despite the political cost (wouldn't it be easier for them to force her to get a secret abortion outside of the country?). Fourth, the daughter is showing IMMENSE courage in going through this hugely difficult period in the national spotlight. It is hard enough to be pregnant as a teenage girl without millions of people impugning your mother for it.

76: read Freakonomics. One of the consequences of abortion and pro-choice policies is a better crime rate.

76: You sound pro-choice to me.

71 - I could not agree less. I'm likely voting for Obama, but even I think it is commendable that Palin raised a daughter who is NOT a c*ck tease.

I also have an image of the boyfriend finding out that he is getting married while in front of the television.

80: How does this reinforce the benefits of abstinence? Sexual desire is sexual desire. You cannot sublimate it, you cannot subsume it. Palin's policy FAILED. FAILED. FAILED. She told them to avoid sexual intercourse and they didn't do it. Instead, she could have referred them to effective contraception and prevented this pregnancy.

75 is right. Palin's base is the Alaskan secessionist constituency.

In case anyone missed the cue, 76 is pro-choice and 78 is pro-life.

"There is no one as morally judgmental as a leftist who thinks he smells hypocracy."

__________________________________________

What about a leftist who smells an inability to spell simple words?

80, what it does is show that, abstinence-only education aside, teenagers--even those from so-called "good" families--are still going to have sex. it's going to happen, no matter how many times you tell them not to.

given that, it is incredibly stupid to not educate them about sex and the tools available to decrease the risk of the activity. the abstinence-only crowd thinks that if you continually tell kids not to have sex, they won't have sex, and the problem of teenage pregnancy will disappear. this shows that despite the best efforts of the abstinence-only crowd, such expectations are foolish.

80: Wrong. The situation clearly shows Palins bad parenting and poor decision making (e.g. abstenence only policy).

When children make mistakes and screw up, the parents are just as culpable as the children, if not more culpable. If you raise your children properly, they will not make a huge mistake like this.

HTH.

70: Not a problem. It's a flow chart of Sarah Palin's decisions from the time her water broke with her most recent baby to the time she gave birth.

In a nutshell:

She knows in advance that her baby has Down Syndrome, yet, when her water breaks while down in Dallas, Texas for an energy summit, instead of rushing to the nearest hospital, she proceeds to give a 30 minute speech at the forum. Then, instead of going to the hospital which she presumably should have done from the get go, she boards A PLANE, on Alaska Airlines, going from Dallas to Anchorage. Only, Alaska Airlines doesn't have a direct flight on the return, which would have at least kept the flying time down to a approximate minimum of 6 hours and 55 minutes. There is a lay-over in Seattle. In labor and having experienced contractions as early as the energy summit, does Mrs. Palin at the very least THEN check herself into the nearest Seattle hospital. No. She continues on to Anchorage. Next, instead of going to the nearest and top state hospitals, she and her husband (who was with her all along) travel approximately 30 miles to a regional hospital to give birth. I must confess, I'm a young male so, other than what I've seen on TV, I wasn't sure what the standard protocol was once your water breaks. After my mom (who is completely non-partisan) told me you're supposed to go immediately to the hospital, I've seriously begun to question this woman's judgment. Nonetheless, I still welcome other's opinions. Does anyone else think these were wise decisions. **If you think these aspects of the story are so unbelievable that you need sources, let me know. I will gladly provide the WSJ and local Alaskan paper articles that cite them**

Actually, 59, one can decide to keep a baby or put it up for adoption. You see, killing it isn't the only other option. It's a bit scary you think that way.

This election will be remembered, rather ironically in light of Obama's rhetoric, as the election in which Democrats finally learned how to make character attacks a central part of their campaign.

82, winner. certainly not "anti-life," right, 69?

88: you're being ridiculous. You don't think that the daughter and her beau were aware of contraception? It wasn't a policy matter so much as a "being 17 and silly" matter. They probably thought they could prevent pregnancy by pulling out in time, or any number of other absurd prophylactic ideas conjured by the teenage mind.

76/78: You are like most people, you are pro-choice and anti-abortion. The issue is so extreme that people try to label you one or the other, but they failt to recognize that you are the majority opinion.

Guys at my high school . . .

Oh, wait.

94: If they had a proper education instead of the absteneince only b.s., maybe they would know better.

97: They weren't already aware of contraception? I doubt it. Kids are well aware of alternatives these days with the ubiquity of the internet, Sex and the City, and general R&B/Rap music; it's not the 1920s.

94: you just proved the argument you moron. They probably had silly notions of "pulling out" because they didn't receive a proper sexual education and free (confidential) birth control. If you're seriously about reducing abortion because it's murder, you've got to get serious about how to do it. Abortion could remain legal and we could theoretically reduce the number of abortions in America to the failure rate of birth control - 0.1%. That would be an effective abortion policy. Needless to say, outlawing it would not get you 0.0%.

Palin and her spawn don't matter. This election was going to be close one way or another. The Base was going to find a reason to come out for McCain, whether it was Romney as VP, or possible judge appointments, or just voting against Obama. VPs almost never make the difference, and Palin is not LBJ in 1960. She's not swinging any states. In the end, it comes down to Obama v. McCain, and McCain knows he can't win that fight. That's why he threw this political hail mary. While it might get caught, it won't be in the end zone. It'll make the game a little closer, but won't make the difference.

53, I'm an Obama supporter and I agree with your argument.

That said, care to defend/explain this (see link below). It's an issue that speaks to Palin's JUDGMENT, and is therefore fair game. If this is how she actually thinks or makes decisions in a recent (only five months ago) stressful situation, is she really who we want as our Vice President, especially given John McCain's age....?

http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/4628/sarahpalinla4.png

It's a flow chart of Sarah Palin's decisions from the time her water broke with her most recent baby to the time she gave birth.

In a nutshell (for those wary of opening up random links):

Sarah Palin knows in advance that her baby has Down Syndrome, yet, when her water breaks while down in Dallas, Texas for an energy summit, instead of rushing to the nearest hospital, she proceeds to give a 30 minute speech at the forum. Then, instead of going to the hospital which she presumably should have done from the get go, she boards A PLANE, on Alaska Airlines, going from Dallas to Anchorage. Only, Alaska Airlines doesn't have a direct flight on the return, which would have at least kept the flying time down to an approximate minimum of 6 hours and 55 minutes. There is a lay-over in Seattle. In labor and having experienced contractions as early as the energy summit, does Mrs. Palin at the very least THEN check herself into the nearest Seattle hospital. No. She continues on to Anchorage. Next, instead of going to the nearest and top state hospitals, she and her husband (who was with her all along) travel approximately 30 miles to a regional hospital to give birth. I must confess, I'm a young male so, other than what I've seen on TV, I wasn't sure what the standard protocol was once your water breaks. After my mom (who is completely non-partisan) told me you're supposed to go immediately to the hospital, I've seriously begun to question this woman's judgment. Nonetheless, I still welcome other's opinions. Does anyone else think these were wise decisions. **If you think the accounts I've provided are not true or are so unbelievable that you'd like sources, let me know. I will gladly provide the WSJ and local Alaskan paper articles that cite them**

In Bratislava the daughters of vice presidential candidates have babies out of wedlock at age 17 all the time . . . it's no big deal.

94, the "logic" behind abstinence-only is that sex education (including education about birth control) encourages kids to have sex by making them think it's safe and OK. by teaching only abstinence, kids get the message that sex is not safe or OK, and they will stop having it.

now, what sounds ridiculous?

-88

81: read Dianetics by L. Ron Hubbard.

104 = Tom Cruise.

103: kids have sex. They are going to have sex. You cannot tell them not to by scaring them. They will always find a partner who makes them feel "safe." Because they are hardwired to have sex. After puberty. And they will. So make sure the girls are on the pill and the boys have condoms. This is not rocket science. Mommies and daddies who think sex is evil can still tell their kids that sex is evil. But they should know about the science of it. Taking the pill while not having sex can't be a sin, right?

I guess they'll have to change the spelling of the Alaskan capital to "Juno"

Nobody's attacking the 17 year old girl. This is the issue:

Palin couldn't implement her abstinence-only policies in her own home, how is she supposed to do it in a country of 300 million people?

A secondary issue is the BS that is their family first agenda. Forcing a 17 year old girl to marry a self-proclaimed "redneck" guy whom she will probably get divorced from in 3 years after he runs out on the family are not what the majority of this country believes are wholesome family values.

What would happen if she were poor and unable to feed and clothe the kid? Put the child in foster care?

101 here: Why is no one addressing 101's points?

107-Brilliant!!!!

101/109: it's because you led off with "I'm an Obama supporter," and everyone realized there was no point in continuing to talk to an irrational person.

To 80 ("the daughter is showing IMMENSE courage").

We don't know what the daughter is showing. The only thing that we know is that, according to news sources, she's going to have the baby and she's going to marry Levi, the baby's father. I raised the questions earlier (I'm # 48), but it seems to me that it's just as likely that Bristol and Levi are getting married because they feel pressured into doing so.

111, LOL. You can't be that partisan, can you? Seriously now, address my point in post 101. Thanks.

111, LOL. You can't be that partisan, can you? Seriously now, address my point in post 101. Thanks.

101/109: It seems like bad judgment. She may have known, however, that she has lengthy labors and she wanted to be with her family when it happened. Not a great decision, but not a completely wreckless one (if she knew she has contractions for a long time). Probably risky. Which is why she is perfect for McCain. Shoot from the hip, rush to judgment, blah blah. I fear this.

101--Was she in contact with her obstetrician during this time frame? If you answer is Yes or I don't know, then your point holds no water. (pun intended)

Okay, 101, how's this. Trig is Palin's 5th child. Women who have had multiple children know how their bodies act during labor. It's very possible that she knew she had a long time between water breaking and delivery and wanted to be at her own hospital with her own doctor. And...it worked out just fine. Down Syndrome is a chromosomal abnormality, not a delivery defect. There wasn't anything likely to be special or traumatic about the birth itself.

Why are people so hellbent on second guessing this? Why are *dudes* so hellbent on second guessing this? Because of your immense experience and understanding with a laboring uterus?

103: that's not bad logic. The question is whether it works. Empirically speaking, it doesn't. Any decent sociologist will tell you that there are more teenage pregnancies under the tutelage of abstinence-only than under sex ed.

HOWEVER, abstinence-only programs tend to be taught in more rural communities where the pregnancy rate is already higher, so it complicates things.

How do I feel? As a libertarian, I think that government programs should be mandated to teach both if they so choose, and that the federal government should stay out of it. People forget that abstinence-only programs aren't a federal issue. Which is why Palin's daughter is irrelevant to the campaign and her mom's platform.

What's galling is this: When the subject is a pregnancy to an unwed, minority teenage mother growing up in some (presumably Democratic) urban area, that pregnancy becomes fodder for lectures from conservatives about bad parenting, the perils of welfare spending and so on. But when the subject is a pregnancy to an unwed, white teenager from some small town in a Republican state, that pregnancy is...a celebration of the wonders of God's magnificence--and choosing life!

-Thomas Schaller

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/

This is a repulsive family. The husband does not have a college degree. Every effort needs to be made to keep these people as far away from the White House as possible.

What this whole episode shows is that: (1) John McCain did not properly vet his VP choice; or (2) chose to thrust a pregnant 17 year old girl into the national spotlight for political gain.

96 -- subtle, yet brilliant!

119: the hypocrisy of the Republican party is undeniable, but let's ask a few questions:

Which is more common -- the Republican version of teen pregnancy or the Democratic urban one?

How does public policy affect either? Do Democratic-instituted welfare programs promote teenage pregnancy?

Could Palin have avoided her daughter's pregnancy by teaching her about contraception?

I think the answer to all three questions is "no."

123: If Palin put her daughter on birth control, I think we can assume that this would not have happened.

HTH.

117 -- Trig was also apparently born premature. A premature Down's baby needs immediate neonatal care. If he had been born on the plane, he might not have lived. I was inclined to believe the story that she was covering for Bristol because that's giving Sarah the benefit of the doubt.

And far from being an indcitment of the rumor mill, it's John McCain's fault for not being upfront about basic biographical information, and cynically trying to bury the news on the day of a Hurricaine (which Tucker Eskew, his new aide -- the very aide who smeared him in 2000 -- admitted.) Also, the weakest link on the Trig-is-Bristol's-baby story was the fact that there was only hearsay evidence that Bristol was pregnant, but that part turned out to be true!

Anyway -- 50 million or so Americans don't have health insurance or inadequate health care. The Christian right wants to, for the first time in their history, defend a teenage mother, so can they now defend health care for all? If Palin weren't the Governor of the state, that whole family would be twice as messed up than it already is.

94,

Of course they were aware of contraception.

But they had been taught it was morally wrong.

Epic parenting failure resulting in TTT life-changing decision.

124: Of course this wouldn't have happened! We wouldn't be able to experience the magic of birth, a child wouldn't have been able to experience this wonderful life, this testament to God's greatness!

"A child said, What is the grass? fetching it to me with full hands;
How could I answer the child?. . . .I do not know what it
is any more than he.

I guess it must be the flag of my disposition, out of hopeful green stuff woven.

Or I guess it is the handkerchief of the Lord,
A scented gift and remembrancer designedly dropped,
Bearing the owner's name someway in the corners, that we may see and remark, and say Whose?"
-- Walt Whitman

This is what Palin stands for. Magic. Grass. That every child is a miracle.

Who is less prepared? Bristol Palin, to be a mother? Or Sarah Palin, to be a heartbeat away from the presidency?

129 - The answer is clearly (c) Obama to be president.

No need for serious discussion anymore; Obama could dump Biden and pick up Al Franken as his running mate at this point.

And still win.

Hurry to the parking lot!

131: have you looked at the polls? McCain is still easily within reach of Obama.

I think that Obama will win by a wide margin, but it's not assured by any stretch.

I just got an image in my mind of the Palin family driving to the White House Clampett-family style after a McCain/Palin win this year. Picture a Suburban festooned with suitcases and family furniture, suitcases, a bale of hay and plastered with NRA, anti-abortion and jesus fish bumper stickers!! YEEEEE HAWWWWW!!!

and a snowmobile in tow on a trailer.

131,

My gut is frequently wrong, but it's currently telling me that McCain just alienated the last bastion of truly undecided voters who were both unsure of McCain and at least somewhat likely to vote for Obama.

Instead this has merely appeased people who were unsure of McCain but wouldn't vote for Obama 'til Hell froze over.

Reminder: Friends, for five and a half years when I was a PRISONER OF WAR, sexually active 17 year olds didn't cause my campaign any problems at all.

Country first,
John McCain

It's reckless no matter what the doc said and no matter what her previous experiences were. Airplanes are by no means hospitals and are not the place to risk having to give birth. It unnecessarily put the baby's life in danger and no rationale woman would subject themselves to being in labor without a physician for, at the very least, 8 hours and 30 minutes. Again, this is so regardless of what the obstetrician may or may not have said.

135 - good on ya' for pointing out that McCain brings up his POW experience every time he is confronted with a difficult question or unflattering publicity.

132 -- The national polls don't really mean much. Got to look at state by state polls. If Obama wins the same states as Kerry, plus one, he wins. Right now he leads in Colorado, Iowa, Nevada, New Mexico, and Ohio, none of which Kerry won four years ago. Will Palin swing any of these to McCain? Maybe, but I doubt it.

Before McCain = noun, verb, POW

Now, McCain = noun, verb, and [I paraphrase] "stop pointing out that, seeing as I own so many houses that I wasn't able to remember just how many I own, I was a hypocrite (and full of bs) when my suggates were saying Obama was an elitist. Instead, just keep thinking P...O...W.

See it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WeOXGAXqoU

Before McCain = noun, verb, POW

Now, McCain = noun, verb, and [I paraphrase] "stop pointing out that, seeing as I own so many houses that I wasn't able to remember just how many I own, I was a hypocrite (and full of bs) when my surrogates were saying Obama was an elitist. Instead, just keep thinking P...O...W.

See it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WeOXGAXqoU

Republicans lambast single mothers and unwed teenage pregnancies, but it's okay that our potential VP's unmarried teenager is pregnant? How is that not hypocrisy? Like many other issues for the Republicans (cheating/family values, supporting gay family members, etc.), it's not okay for everyone else - and should be legislated by the federal government - but it is okay for them/their family.

Yes, McCain, we get it. You're a POW and we greatly honor your service to this great nation. But what does it have to do with the fact that you were hypocritically claiming Obama is an elitist when you have so many freakin homes and when you didn't actually pay for them.

McCain's POW POW POW speech on Jay Leno:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q37O08IJstQ&NR=1

Barack HUSSEIN Obama. Enough said.

The fact is, regardless of what you will hear over the next few days, Bristol's pregnancy is not a legitimate political issue. Sarah Palin is a longterm member of a group called Feminists for Life, which is not opposed to birth control. So you probably can't tag her for consigning young people to unwanted pregnancies.
(via Drudge)
Morons

144 - Way to oversimplify the issue. Moron.

Does the Palin family live in a trailer park? Seriously.

I woke to the sound of stem cells crying, and prayed for the souls of science folk.

145- Do i need to point out just how many commenters have tried to make this an issue by pointing to Palin's supposedly dogmatic position of abstinence only? Moron.

148: link to her actual position? I'm fairly sure that she's steadfast about abstinence-only programs as the solution.

148 - Maybe try seeing the forest for the trees. Oh wait, I forgot, you're a lawyer, you're not capable of that. Moron.

Y'all liberal lawyers just like Obama/Biden because they're "smart." Big deal. Palin hates abortion and loves Jesus. She's got a good heart. I'd like to sit and have a beer with her. Nuff said.

--Every red state

150: Did you just insult yourself? And if you're not a lawyer, then what are you doing here?

148 - Palin's policy has been and is abstinence only. If she cannot make this work within her family, how can she possibly hope to make it work on a national level?

Anyone who advocates public funding for creationism but not abstinence-only sex education is DOUBLY an idiot.

In for a dime, in for a dollar.

152 -- I didn't really mean it . I was just trying to come up with an excuse to call 144/148 a moron again. Can't help myself.

149: From the far-left source of "Think Progress"

http://thinkprogress.org/wonkroom/2008/08/30/palin-contraception/

Don't worry, it still argues that because Palin doesn't support women in killing their own children (I mean fetuses- doesn't that sound better?) she isn't the right pick.

I trust you will accept this source as trustworthy and each and every poster who tried to make an issue of this will shut up. Morons

Nobody's trying to make an issue of it. There is no issue. Your TTT candidate already lost on Friday.

We're just trying to amuse ourselves, really.

It's sad, really.

The GOP could do well to base its platform on Christian morals, instead of Christian moralizing.

112, "it seems to me that it's just as likely that Bristol and Levi are getting married because they feel pressured into doing so."

Obviously. In this case, both dad AND mom have a number of big hunting rifles and know how to use them. Shotgun wedding indeed!

The babydaddy describes himself as an "f---in' redneck" and he has hockey hair:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/republican_race/2008/09/01/2008-09-01_bristol_palins_pregnancy_was_an_open_sec.html

Has the other shoe dropped???

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/02/palins-church-may-have-sh_n_123205.html

# 138: "If Obama wins the same states as Kerry, plus one, he wins."

Better do the math again.

106: try re-reading that exchange.

118: it's not logical, given what we know about teenages, to expect that plan to work.

and like it or not, abstinence-only sex ed is a federal issue, to the tune of over $176 million/year in funding to public schools that agree to teach it. the fact that a lot of states have decided to forego that money (despite the never-ending budget crises) is an indication of its ineffectiveness.

-88/103

# 120: "The husband does not have a college degree. Every effort needs to be made to keep these people as far away from the White House as possible. "

Amazing that a party thinks it can win working class votes when so many of its supporters hold such voters in contempt. Just another way to lose elections.

"I think God's will has to be done in unifying people and companies to get that gas line built, so pray for that,"

--Palin

Right there is a perfect crystallization of what is wrong with the GOP. Conmingling mysticism with reason. Convincing people to embrace their prejudices rather than wean from them. Vindicating the eternally idiotic idea of divine right.

This woman has horns.

You have to feel sorry for the daughter. To be publicly shamed for getting pregnant must be rough on anyone, let alone a 17 year old.

You have to question the character of Palin for putting her daugher through the public shaming and the countless photos of her blasted all over the internet.

It's great that Palin took the gas pipeline building contract away from american companies like Exxon and ConocoPhillips and gave the 27 BILLION dollar contract to a Canadian Company. Very patriotic...

It looks like McCain's team botched the vetting process. The vetting "team" arrived in Alaska last Thursday, one day before the announcement.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26501863/page/2/

164,

120 was a straw man placed by one of your compatriots.

However, as important as the working class is to the fabric of the nation, nobody without a college degree should ever be anywhere near the Presidency.

That the comment was made regarding Palin's husband and not Palin herself, is noted. However, while it was off topic and intended to sound insulting by painting Dem voters as excessively elitist, nevertheless it's still in the ballpark of a perfectly reasonable discussion.

This Lefty has to agree with 164 - i don't understand why democrats continue to make these kinds of statements. They're not helpful.

However, I think 165 hit it on the head. Whatever happend to separation of church and state?

166: nail meet head.

This is an untouched part of the story as of yet. Why did Palin accept this role in the middle of a family crisis and during an investigation, which could jeopardize her party or subject her to perjury charges (certainly the spotlight is not helping this go away)? I think her acceptance indicates she is either ruthlessly self-interested or completely naive. After eight years, I'm tired of both.

169: what do you learn in college that you can't learn somewhere else? How does "Intro to Statistics" affect your competency as a president?

166/171: Not to mention she just gave birth to a special needs child. Who is going to take care of her newborn, her daughter, and he soon to be granddaugher?

PALIN BELONGED (UNTIL BECOMING GOVERNOR LIKE YESTERDAY) TO A RADICAL CHURCH! Sorry for the caps but you can't make this shit up. This is believable. What's good for the goose..... Drip, drip, drip, drip..

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/02/palins-church-may-have-sh_n_123205.html

You did one heck of a job vetting your candidate there McCanie!

171: what "family crisis"? You and the liberal media manufactured this family crisis. There was no crisis. The daughter is pregnant and her family, as well as the expected groom, are happy for her and cooperative.

# 166: "You have to question the character of Palin for putting her daugher through the public shaming and the countless photos of her blasted all over the internet."

How does anyone know that the daughter doesn't prefer that her mother run for VP? Might not want to hinder a once in a lifetime opportunity. The daughter's pregnancy is irrelevant to the mother's candidacy despite partisan efforts to suggest othewise. Kids that have sex ed in schools get pregnant, too. For all anyone knows, the daughter and boyfriend may have been advised about contraceptives but didn't take the advice or the method failed. I dont think it's much of an electoral issue and it seems likely the backlash will have more of an impact, especially after all the crazy talk that Bristol was the mother of Palin's most recent child. Enough! Didn't you hear what Obama said - he'd fire anyone raising the issue.

169,

Not to sound too arrogrant, but I think it's fairly well settled that

college > college of life

Education and higher education are both indispensable to the role of CINC.

126- Last week we heard how great Obama's grandparents were (and they are great people). But they let their daughter get pregnant as an 18 year old!! To a BLACK guy!! OMG they are horrible.
The people smearing Palin and her daughter are the lowest of the low and should leave it alone. Not a single person who supports abstinence only education believes that it will stop every teenager from having sex. Kids make mistakes, no matter how good their parents are.

161 - wow, but I have to say I'm not surprised that Palin is associated with such a freaky cult. Let's just hope McCain and her don't get elected, because if she ended up with her finger on the nuclear button, it would be just as scary as Ahmadinejad having his finger on the button.

VP to religious fanatic!!

Higher education helps you to think about the world in a more systematic and academic way, and turns you into a better person. America has always been one of the world's greatest nations because of its advanced educational system and human capital resources. By allowing someone like Palin to accede to the presidency, we make a mockery of the Enlightenment ideals that this country represents.

175: Teen pregnancy is not a family crisis? No big deal? New puppy? Get serious. This girl needs her mother right now even if she thinks her mother running for president is awesome. And her mother should have enough protective instinct to shield her daughter from what will be a ruthless public airing of the details. America watches the Hills and reads US Weekly. "VP Candidate's Daugher Pregnant!" Is not a partisan story. It's American journalism right down the middle. For better or worse. She should have declined the role. Her family is going to suffer.

181: You're awfully judgmental, you know that? When and if you become a parent and someone offers you the VP slot, I'll see what you decide.

Palin = token woman. No substance.

Were are all of you AA haters? Why not jump on this one?

I now understand that when it came down to the running mate decision, McCain again thought with the little head instead of the big head.

178, "Not a single person who supports abstinence only education believes that it will stop every teenager from having sex."???

I have to assume that they do. Otherwise, why it is abstinence-ONLY? If we were going to be rational people and accept that some teenagers will have sex, as you say, then why NOT teach birth control as back up? And yet, abstinence-ONLY pushers do not want to do that. Is it because they think the very kids who make mistakes and have sex should be the ones raising babies as teenage parents? Do you see how illogical this is?

The arc of the moral universe is long,
But it bends toward justice.
-- Theodore Parker

185 = the smartest guy in the room.

Charllote, NC has a larger population than Alaska. Mayor McCrory for VP!

185- Or maybe they think that teaching kids not to have sex will cause more of the kids not to have sex than teaching kids how to have sex will. And since when does anyone pay attention to sex ed in school anyway. Do you really think any teenager in America doesnt know what a condom is? That is illogical.

McCain is a hot head. He couldn't get Lieberman or Ridge, so he probably figured go with ultra conservative from Alaska--Can't go wrong with that choice[ha ha ha!]

189: not the brightest guy. There's more to learn about birth control, contraception, and sexual activity than you think. Any information asymmetry can result in an unwanted pregnancy.

In this day and age, that's precisely the problem. They KNOW WHAT IT IS. Teenagers are pelted by dozens of TV shows and programs that say, "Hey, sex is all right. It's even what single women in New York City do all the time, without consequences." Turning a blind eye to it is stupid.

In the 1890s and Biblical days, people weren't frivolously having casual sex because they didn't know what to do with themselves. Maybe abstinence-only programs were more appropriate then.

189 - I think sex ed was responsible for my extreme fear of STD's and resulting insistence on using a condom, even when the girl told me she tested negative for everything.

Charllote, NC has a larger population than Alaska. Mayor McCrory for VP!

189, please do some research on what students who receive abstinence-only education believe about condoms. The information is there. Read it.

13--good point. People who have non-abstinence-only sex ed. never have unwanted pregnancies. Actually, the city I live in, New York, is proof of that.

192: ugh . . . that's a fairly rational fear, especially in a state school college setting, or even at a prestigious T10 law school.

It's always better to wear protection. What incentive does the girl have to tell you the truth? How does she know?

37--good point. You sound very tolerant. Conservatives and "bible-thumpers" aren't opposed to people who make mistakes. Palin will not suffer with the right wing because of her daughter's indiscretion.

76--i think slavery is a horrible thing and would never advise someone to have one. i also don't think i have the right to make that decision for anyone but myself.

which am i...pro-choice? abolitionist?

17/33: candidates' children should be off limits, not candidates and their obviously unsound policies.

198, seriously? You don't think you have the right to make that decision for anyone but yourself? What about making that decision on behalf of your owner?

That's a silly play on words, whereas 76/78 was making a substantive play on words to make a point. Namely, he was subtly highlighting the true centrist position on abortion, which can be succinctly described as "it's a necessary evil".

Here's the problem: 76/78's verbal trick only worked because each of the positions articulated sounds inherently reasonable on its face to someone who accepts the premise that abortion is terrible but is ambivalent on its legal status.

But... "I think slavery is horrible... and don't think I have the right to make that decision for anyone but myself" is, shall we say, a little LESS reasonable on its face.

In fact, I challenge you to slam a 12-pack of Busch Light (right now; leave the office if necessary) and attempt to devise a reasonable-sounding platform in support of that statement. To do likewise in defense of the statement articulated in 76 would be relatively straightforward.

The only Napa resort fitting this description is Silverado CC (where I spent my childhood and teen years).

The summers in question do not pass the stupid test.

They should have "borrowed" a golf cart, a half dozen of which are reposed at any given time just around the mansion building from the valet stand, opposite the pro shop.

(When I was a teenager I took many a "sure ting" dinner date on a golf cart joy-ride without repercussion.)

Barring that, a $5.00 tip to an eager valet would have secured a rapid golf cart ride to their rooms.

Of course I was unencumbered with a top 14 legal education, and therefore the inability to think outside the box of simply waiting for the single MoFo provided shuttle or stealing a car.

# 180: "By allowing someone like Palin to accede to the presidency, we make a mockery of the Enlightenment ideals that this country represents."

You ever look at Joe Biden's academic record, the real one not the one he makes up?

125--I am so sick of leftists' attacks on conservative Christians. They are some of the most generous and giving people in the world. The issue is not whether they are generous; it is the philosophical question of who should do the giving and how. Religious people have run and continue to run many of the most effective social and charitable programs. They happen to believe it is their calling to do so. They just don't think that government is the best means to effecting the desired end. Quit setting up straw men. You only make yourself look like an idiot. And if you want to talk about programs, it's clear to me that the social welfare system we've put in place has clearly helped those in the inner cities and rural America. Get over yourself.

Re: Alberto Gonzales

As a great trial lawyer I once knew was fond of saying, never attribute to guile that which can be explained by incompetence.

additionally, 76/78 was pointing out that the "pro-choice/pro-life" dichotomy is a fallacy. one can be pro-life and pro-choice. "pro-choice" is not "anti-life" or "pro-abortion."

objectively, the two sides are pro-choice and anti-choice. that's the fundamental question: whether a woman has the right to choose to terminate a pregnancy. the first group says yes. the second says no.

however, b/c of the obviously negative connotation of "anti-", the second group (reasonably) wants a positive-sounding nickname as well.

Palin pick = total disaster

Any conservative who disagrees is just drinking the kool aid. This pick was a disaster from the moment that McCain announced it, and since then we have heard a truckload of criticisms and smears - and it's only been one weekend!

This is ironic, since this pick was one that was supposed to win the hearts of Americans and get lots of votes. Let's not even pretend that he picked her because he thinks that she'd be a good vice president.

Bottom line is that - regardless of whether or not you think that Palin's daughter, troopergate, the AIP, the way she gave birth to her most recent baby, or her husband's DWI is relevant - this pick is a monumental disaster and McCain is going to lose badly because of it.

Here's this morning's Rasmussen tracking poll: Obama 51%, McCain 45%, outside of the ±2% margin of error. Obama was up 49%-46% yesterday, suggesting that Palin's scandals may have helped him to double his lead in just one day of sampling.

And the new Hotline/Diageo poll has Obama up 48%-39%, compared to a 44%-40% lead from just one week ago.

Late Update: Three more polls all show Obama leading by a substantial margin. The daily Gallup tracking poll has Obama up 50%-42% -- the first time ever that he's reached the 50% threshold in their poll. The USA Today/Gallup poll has Obama up 50%-43%, and ARG has Obama up 49%-43%.

There is also yesterday's CBS poll, which gave Obama a 48%-40% lead.

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/09/two_more_polls_show_obamas_lea.php

204, so are saying that the religious right supports universal health care? Or are you saying that the religious right doesn't support Bristol Palin? Because I can't see how your comment is a logical response to 125's. 125 didn't say anything about conservative Christians' generosity or giving or anything about small government.

153--by that logic, no one who has had a family member convicted of murder should vehemently support murder laws, and the examples could keep coming.

You can't make this stuff up (from TPM):

Todd Palin, husband of Sarah, was a member of the secessionist Alaska Independence Party from 1995 through 2002. That's the information we just got from the Alaska Division of elections.

Probably not coincidentally, 2002 was the first time Sarah Palin ran for statewide office in Alaska.

119 is 100% on point!

166, you raise a valid point. On the other hand, and apparently something you didn't consider, can you imagine that 17 year old being burdened the rest of her life with the knowledge that it was her recklessness that cost her mother an historic opportunity? As you libs like to say, it's more "nuanced" than it appears.

147 - gold!

211: according to the AIP, both Palins were members.

They wanted to break off from America. They didn't want to be a part of America. They thought it would be better to not be American. This should be game-over. Absolutel game-over. Obama gets dragged through the mud for going to a fundraiser held by a 60s radical who has paid his debt to society. The Palins wanted to seceed from the Union.

201--who says that slavery is less reasonable than abortion? you? who made you god? the point is, if one believes that a fetus is a human life entitled to rights, then it is equally reprehensible. your belief about whether abortion should be legal is based on your presupposition (unprovable, might I add) that life begins or does not begin at a certain point. since I believe life begins at conception (also unprovable, might I add), I equate the barbaric procedure with slavery.

216: They will fare well with the Confederate States in the South.

217 - you think the rights of a small glob of cells in a uterus should trump the rights of a fully developed human?

ALASKA SECESSIONIST MOVEMENT.

How is this not front page news?

129- Obama's mother was 17 or 18 when she conceived. She too was totally unprepared to be a mother because she was so young, right? Her bastard is running for president. Too bad Obama's mother wasn't castigated and shamed in the media by judgmental elitist pricks! Will someone please bring back the scarlet letter and put it on Obama's mother's gravestone??

You know what's reckless? A seventeen year old having sex with an African bigamist who has 4 wives and 15 children. Some of them live in shacks on $1 a day while Obama lives in a mansion. check it out dudes.

Obama would abort his own grandchildren. what a jerk

217, the point isn't how you subjectively feel about abortion, and whether you place it onmmorally-equivalent ground with slavery.

the point is that with regard to the zygote, its status as a human is at least debateable, and reasonable people can differ. that's why your analogy fails. i'm hoping you didn't see that b/c of that 12er of Busch light.

221, Obama's grandmother didn't run for vice president with the knowledge that her young daughter was pregnant. And, as far as we know, Obama's grandmother was not a politician with outspoken pro-life and abstinence-only views.

222, "African bigamist"? What does "African" have to do with anything?

Was Obama's mother prepared to be a mother or a total free lovin' slut? discuss

226- He's African. I was just using a descriptive adjective. Obama's father was an African bigamist with 4 "wives" and 15 children, some of whom live in shacks on $1 a day while Obama lives in a mansion. Can we call any of this "black trash"?

New term "biracial trash" - can we apply this to Obama's family of origin or not? In his family there are bastards, single moms, 18 year old moms, people who don't have a college degree, etc. Very trashy.

Please please tell me that you all realize how big of a mistake the Palin pick was. I know you're being good soldiers, but you are all intelligent people. This is the biggest gaff in presidential politics that I've ever seen. Every minute we get hit with a new weird/sad/awkward story. This is worse than Harriet Miers. The McCain camp is going to be defending Palin for the rest of September while Obama champaigns unscathed. Huge, huge, gigantic blunder. I have never been more excited to watch cable news.

219--no, I didn't say trump. Babies in utero are not more valuable than an adult. they are just as valuable. i know this nuance is confusing for you libs.

219--no, I didn't say trump. Babies in utero are not more valuable than an adult. they are just as valuable. i know this nuance is confusing for you libs.

229: Palin's family is still more trashy.

224--the issue of slavery was debatable for thousands of years too. that is irrelevant to whether it's right or wrong.

219,

You lack standing to advocate for fetal rights.

Er, make that 232/33

People who would abort their own grandchildren suck

231, calling four cells a "baby" stretches not only the imagination, but also the definition of the word "baby." Those cells might have the potential to become a "baby," but they're not a "baby" yet.

Hey ah Lat, why don't you put up another one of your buddy's bs tax posts like you did those other three times. Maybe he can provide some sort of an update, some commentary if you will, on how our tax rate wont mean a damn thing if we don't have income to apply his made up rate to. Which, it just so happens, would likely occur if old genius McCain is elected POTUS. If McCain can't vet his VP candidate properly than there's a hell of a good chance what he CAN do is run this country (and the economy, and our jobs, and our salaries) into the ground!!

238--who says? you? 500 years ago, calling an adult African a person stretched the imagination. The problem with liberals is they have no objective standard by which to measure right and wrong, which makes arguments like this laughable.

Objective standard... like Scripture?

Pray tell.

sure, or natural law. ultimately, everyone's beliefs are based on unprovable maxims. Religious people just admit that. People like you pretend that you've got some special revelation that the rest of us are missing out on, while you hypocritically attempt to impose your unprovable view on the rest of us.

240: how's this?

pre-birth: potential person, no rights
post-birth: actual person, rights attach.

objective enough for you?

that's certainly one philosophy. as long as you admit that you are basing that on your presuppositions about when life begins (as pro-lifers also do), then you're at least consistent and i can respect that.

244: Are you a lawyer? 243 is stating the law, with limited exceptions.

Lifetime Republican here. Voting for Bob Barr this election. I will not vote McCain/Palin into the White House under any circumstances.

that still doesn't get you out of the "slavery" analogy you tried to draw (assuming this is the same poster).

while reasonable people can disagree on when a collection of cells becomes a "human," they cannot disagree on the right of a human to not be owned as property or killed.

i understand that. but the law is based on our perceived views of what is moral and not moral (generally). my point is just that liberals are not on any more solid footing than conservatives on issues like abortion. also, the law can change. what is morally correct is unchangin.

247--yes they can, and they did. and you're basing your argument on the word "reasonable". "Reasonableness" changes, as evidenced by 350+ years of slavery in the "New World".
Your problem is that you don't see the presupposition in each of your words. I am willing to accept that we disagree. I just ask for the common courtesy of accepting that your view is based on an unprovable assertion, which is born out by the way the term "reasonable" has changed over the years.

fair enough, with the caveat that liberals are not on any less solid ground than conservatives on the issue, and that i'm not objectively defining "when life begins," but rather "when a collection of cells (which are unquestionably 'alive') becomes a human, with the rights inherent in that status." very different things. this is really a tanget, however.

the original 76/78 posts suggested that the term "pro-life" is a misnomer b/c one could be both pro-life and pro-choice (and in reality, many people are). the two are not mutually exclusive. the availability of the "choice", not the morality or desirability of abortion or life, is the key issue.

my point is that you can't be pro-choice and pro-life anymore than you can be anti-abolition and pro-slave (in the positive context--i.e. supportive of slaves). making a judgment call about choice entails a moral judgment as to the value of the life aborted.

244,

243 didn't "when life begins", a nightmarishly subjective terminology. Doesn't it bother you that your objective stance is hopelessly ambiguous?

I mean, how can you say that "life begins" at ANY point? Is it the likely beginning of consciousness, insofar as science may be able to determine this? Is it some level of development of the fetal brain? Development into a fetus? Into an embryo? Attachment of zygote to uterine wall? Fertilization of the egg? Coitus?

Then, doesn't life actually begin with your eggs or your testicles (sperm producing organs)? Those cells exist within you for the sole purpose of creating your children. Aren't you carrying life inside you from the very beginning?

Isn't masturbation immoral for men, then? Don't women have a duty to reproduce as quickly as possible due to the limitations imposed upon them by nature? Don't we literally have a duty to populate the earth as quickly as we can? Shouldn't we shun birth control, recreational sex, and even long periods of non-childrearing activity?

What objective basis can we have to declare that there is an intangible person with human rights which precede its development into a physical creature capable of possessing thoughts and feelings? More accurately, how can we possible distinguish among the competing explanations for when this is supposed to be?

In fairness, public policy is difficult to render objectively because there is always a human component. But the strictest effort must be made to separate religious and spiritual beliefs from demonstrable fact and a secular humanist interpretation of human rights. This is a central fact of modern government, if we wish to have one, whose truth the US has traditionally demonstrated to the world in our efforts to separate religious influence from our government. In seeking to tie religious belief directly into a life-or-death issue, anti-abortion advocates directly frustrate the development of sound public policy. This is un-American and should cease ASAP.

or, said differently, your position about when rights attach to a fetus/baby/whatever is based on your unprovable presupposition about when life begins (as contemplated by documents such as the Declaration of Independence and Constitution). Christians admit that they are acting on faith. Secularists, if they were consistent, would do the same.

Biden on education:

"There’s less than one percent of the population of Iowa that is African American. There is probably less than four of five percent that are minorities. What is in Washington? So look, it goes back to what you start off with, what you’re dealing with."

Everyone stop arguing with 244. You cannot convince a feeble minded evangelical/radical person.

HTH.

Biden on immigration:

"You cannot go to a 7-Eleven or a Dunkin' Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent. I'm not joking."

253: I don't get your line of argument. Do you want me to admit I don't know when life begins? I will. Done. Now, since none of us know, let's make a comprimise. In the first trimester, we'll give women unfettered rights to abort. In the second, we'll apply more restrictions. And in the third, there can a lot of restrictions - maybe no abortion except to save the life of the mother... or not.

How does that sound, since none of us know?

243: Take a live baby, cover it in a cloth so you can't see it, then chop its limbs off or suck it's brains out with the normal abortion procedures... makes about as much sense. Same stage of development, the only difference is whether you can see it or not. You sound like an idiot (if I can't see the baby, it must not be a person yet).

257: Are you an idiot? That is the law today.

saying that life begins at conception is the safest position to take. If you are wrong, then you're complicit in the murder of millions of babies. If I'm wrong, at most we would inconvenience certain women. convenience is trumped by life.

the arguments about masturbation, etc. are non-sequiturs and need not even be addressed, because clearly an unfertilized egg is not and can never be a human.

and you miss the point. your "secular humanist interpretation" is not secular. it is based on your philosophical, unprovable, axiomatic assumptions. i have no problem with you trying to impose them on me. I just ask for honesty in the discussion.

259: you are exactly correct (you're a sharp one)

257

It looks bad for Palin now, but if she can squeeze out a few tears and play the victimized female card the way Hillary did, things will turn quickly. People who see 2-day blips as irreversible trends are painfully naive. Things can still turn 3 or 4 times before the election.

I think there should be a one-week period where a newborn can be killed and it would still be legal. We can call it a "very late term abortion."

240, I consulted a dictionary. Under no definition in that dictionary could four cells be described as a "baby."

-238

262: Everyone in the country aleady feels sorry for Palin. It won't affect the underlying reality: McCain made a mistake and this woman is unqualified. That's what people will think until November. If they hate Obama or love McCain it won't matter. But if they were on the fence, they will be heading towards Obama.

I say life begins when the kid can wipe its own ass.

264--I wonder if there's a dictionary definition defining millions of cells as a human. Probably not.

265: We'll see. Obama himself is unqualified. If he thinks he can win by campaigning against McCain's VP pick, I think he is in for a shock.

255: By the way, this "evangelical radical" is at HLS. Assuming that all evangelicals are stupid is a mindset I would expect from someone at a TTT law school.

269: not being allowed to masturbate without opprobrium probably focused your energy quite well.

I heard a rumor floating around that Obama's 10 year old daughter Malia may be pregnant. Any truth to this?

270: And by your language, you also assume I'm a male?

272: of course you only think that men can masturbate. Of course.

Palin has been a registered Republican since 1982, when she was 18 by my calculation. The Alaska Independence Party is more of a state pride thing in some quarters and it's secessionist platform is not taken seriously, except for a few hard core members. Former GOP Governor Wally Hickel was elected Governor in 1990 on the AIP ballot line although he didn't endorse its separatist agenda. Even if her husband flirted with the AIP, there is no issue here. This kitchen sink attack is just making its proponents look silly.

No, just the typical language men tend to use with each other... having a child and raising it while in law school channelled my energies sufficiently thank you.

269: You would not have the requisite LSAT score to get into HLS as demonstrated by your lack of logic in breaking down my statement:

The statement:

"You cannot convince a feeble minded evangelical/radical person"

Does not state or imply that all evangelical/radical persons are indeed feeble minded, only that one cannot convince a evangelical/radical that is feeble minded.

I'm sure this statement is giving you a migraine. To further confuse your inferior mind:

However in actuality, all evangelical/radical persons are in fact feeble minded.

Hope this helps.

-255

275: I wish you well. Nobody likes to be judged. We're all trying to get by and do mostly what we think is right.

258: i was simply providing the objective definition of "human" that was apparently so critical. it happens to differ from the "2-cell" objective definition of "human" previously provided. nowhere did i state that it is the view to which i subscribe; it is simply an objective, clear-cut point. so settle down there, tiger.

269- busting out the "me = Harvard, you = TTT school" schtick isn't really helping your argument at all.

251-

i absolutely CAN be pro-life (in my own life) and pro-choice (in my attitudes toward others). you haven't really explained otherwise, other than to suggest a definition of "pro-life" that requires me to expect others to subscribe to my moral code. i don't accept that definition, and you haven't put forth any argument that would persuade me to do so.

FWIW, my (now) fiancee and I have gone through an abortion, and it was absolutely a horrible experience--one i think about pretty much every day. i don't necessarily regret it, as at the time neither of us was capable of raising a child as it should be raised, but that doesn't make me feel any better. so while i know of what i speak, i still strongly believe it's not my decision to make for others.

i hate to just basically echo everything that's been said, but this whole situation sings volumes about McCain. i don't buy for 1 second that he actually knew about this pregnancy.

also, i think it's shame the timing of making this pregnancy public. mostly, to dispell rumors regarding Palin's own pregnancy of her youngest...with a truth of a current pregnancy.

it's like a bad joke. i'm voting obama.

Disenchanted fiscal republican. The party is headed in the wrong direction, and will not stop until they lose an election. I'm voting Bob Barr.