Nationwide No Offer Watch: Foley Didn't Get the Memo.
43% Offer Rate? Tastes Like Burning.
Foley & Lardner. You've heard the rumors. We've heard the rumors. Foley & Lardner have heard the rumors and chosen not to respond. But the smoke screen cannot obscure the summer structure fire.
Multiple tipsters coalesced around these numbers: 9 of 21 Foley Chicago summers received offers. But six of those offers went to IP attorneys, leaving non-IP summers with a stunning 3 of 15 success rate.
I'm no mathlete, but that doesn't look like the 90% offer rate like we've been hearing from other firms.
And as we've seen with other firms, going to a top school was no summer offer safety net. Again, thus far the firm isn't talking so we can't know for sure, but it appears that HYS summers went 0 for 4 at Foley Chicago.
Read what people are saying below the fold.
The tepid offer rate to '08 summers has not gone unnoticed by full time associates at Foley.
[W]e are all pissed about this (and, frankly, wondering what it means about the financial health of the firm). Management has refused to respond to our concerns or even offer a credible explanation for what the hell happened. They need an immediate wake-up call.
Hope this helps.
If this caught the regular associates by surprise, imagine how the summers felt. According to one tipster:
Foley & Lardner's Chicago office just seriously screwed over a ridiculous percentage of their non-IP 2Ls. ... they no offered about 80% of the class with very little warning (a vague meeting that left summers reassured instead of freaking out).
Not that freaking out would have helped the non-IP summers, but fair warning is fair play.
Other tipsters have suggested that Foley is still "reviewing" candidates, ostensibly keeping some summers in the dark about their future just as OCI gets going in earnest.
One ray of light: if we know about what happened at Foley, and you do, then it is a pretty fair bet that hiring partners do as well. At least Foley isn't making the case that 80% of its non-IP summers "underperformed."
The no offered summers coming out of Foley didn't get rejected, in a strange way they got laid-off, and that shouldn't be a black mark on anybody's resume.
Update: Foley & Lardner CEO Ralf Boer emailed firm lawyers on Monday, September 8th to tell them that Foley extended offers to 84% of their 2008 summer class. Read additional coverage here.
Earlier: Prior ATL coverage of no offers
(264) Comments
FIRST BABY FIRST. DONT HATE BABY IM FIRST
Wow, what a bloodbath....
No surprise. Foley has been a truck stop toilet for years.
"Good! Good. More for you and me."
Any information on the offer rates in other Foley offices?
ATL thanks for looking into this. The 3 non-IP SAs were probably returning summers.
At least for 2Ls this gives them enough warning to avoid Foley.
Foley wins for being the worst firm to summer.
The term is diluted through overuse, but with a sub-50% offer rate, it is deserved.
Foley = TTT
not getting an official no-offer still sucks. if this was a good hiring year most of us could still get jobs at other firms but now we're screwed.
To which school(s) do the three who got offers go?
The reason we're seeing "top school" candidates no offered at an equal or higher rate than other candidates is quality, or lack thereof. Candidates from so-called top schools often come in with inferior practical, people, and legal/analytical skills. In recent years, they've shown themselves to also be inferior in writing ability. Couple these deficits with the sense of entitlement many of the students walk around with and you can see why firms like mine are increasingly disenchanted.
It has taken some time, but I and others have managed to convince the hiring committee as a whole to look deeper down the US News rankings for better candidates. The results thus far have been largely positive.
(And lest anyone think this is just a sub-elite new breed favoring its own, I point out that among the three summers we did not extend offers to last summer, two were from my Ivy league alma matter).
Foley Milwaukee no-offered something like 20%. Look into it.
If you're going to do this, don't even bother having a summer program.
Just hire laterals, maybe some law clerks (if you can get them).
Numbers are not correct.
10 of 20 have received offers. 7 of those to IP. Non-IP summers were 3 of 12. 3 were not returners.
Not saying this makes much of a difference in the big picture, but those are the numbers.
foley will really have to dig deeper to find someone to work for them next summer. who would be stupid enough to accept an offer from them this year?
I'm warning my class
14 - You should email ATL. They trust emails from identifiable sources more than anonymous postings in the comments. You could just be pulling those numbers out of your ass.
The fact that Foley declined comment when contacted by ATL is revealing.
10:26 - So that means their offer rate was 80 percent in Milwaukee? That is significantly better (but not great).
Any advice for someone no-offered as a 1L? How much of a black mark is it? No embarrassing stories or awful work product or what not, just lack of fit - can get recs from people at no-offering firm. Any thoughts though on how to move forward? Is it as serious as being a no-offered 3L back on the job market?
BIGCHEESELAW
IP lawyers rock!
Everyone else is stupid wasted overhead.
So, haters...Elie makes a great reference to one of the best Simpsons episodes and no 'props'?
ATL may be okay.
18 - you're screwed if the person interviewing you doesn't know the extent of it.
For the past few years firms, especially firms like Foley, gave offers to 100% of people (and anyone with a pulse from HYSCCN). It took some serious doing to get no-offered. You had to punch a partner in the face while jerking off on his wife and miss a deadline or two. It's obviously changed a bit this year, but no-offered always carries the air of wtf did this kid do to be no-offered because even now most firms offer 90-100% of kids.
11, how was your TTT experience?
I'm with 21. This Elie character is starting to get it.
Can someone please look into the situation at Jenner Chicago? There are a lot of rumors and no information ...
19: its not that big a deal. doesn't hold a candle to getting no-offered as a 2l.
what a dreadful market. so many dead bodies lying around.
18: having just gone through 20 2L OCRs, i was asked if I had an offer from my 1L firm roughly half of the time. Everyone asked me if I liked the firm, so I'm not sure if the no-offer is information they're expecting you to volunteer, but I wouldn't. On the one hand, its not as bad as doing 3L recruiting just because you have so many more options as a 2L and are part of the massive recruiting process. On the other, depending on the firm, it seems even harder NOT to get an offer to return as a 1L - the stakes are just that much lower for the firm. I would have a good story ready in case it comes up.
Worked there for a year after they took over my old firm (Hopkins & Sutter)...very glad to be long gone. They may be big-time in Milwaukee, but not in Chicago.....
In response to 18, do firms interviewing 2Ls ask them about offers from 1L summer firms? Seems like it's not that important. I'm assuming they probably do, but I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't a big deal either way because most people usually go to the firm they summer with after 2L.
11 - That's some bulletproof reasoning. Shows the brilliance behind Foley's actions.
Did you convince the hiring committee to no-offer all those summers as well? Those results are going to be largely positive also, no doubt.
Congratulations to DLA Piper!! You are officially no longer "America's Most No-offeringest Firm."
Co-sign on 21.
Since when is getting a summer position (as part of an extended interview process, remember?) supposed to guarantee a permanent offer? Most SA's are whiny undermotivated brats anyway. I applaud a firm that gives offers to only the best candidates from their summer class, in line with their hiring needs. More firms should follow this model--it will make for better long-term hiring results and 'rightsizing' (I hate that term!). All the big firms are too afraid to be the first to no-offer many SA's who don't deserve offers. (Bad rep! Friction with the OCI organizers!) I see this as a good thing for the profession. Change the paradigm and make law school students *earn* their job offers. Professional Darwinism, pure and simple.
18, I would think you'd be a lot better off getting no-offered as a 1L as opposed to getting no-offered as a 2L. You still have a chance to land a good 2L job that should lead to a permanent offer. Non-offered 2L's don't even have that chance, they're stuck scrambling for a permanent offer from firms that know nothing about them.
Lots of people who think they are Abe Fromans at Foley
Okay, let me get this straight. HYS are stellar law schools because they are selective. Foley is TTT because it is selective?
Dear Elie,
Please stop trying to be witty. It's your biggest flaw.
Firms interviewing no-offered 2Ls (at least from Foley and any other firms behaving this shoddily) will have to adjust their perception of what "no offer" means. This is horrendous.
Isn't there some value in junior litigation associates learning how to review documents or manage document reviews if they are going to be managing discovery and eventually trials? They won't get this experience if it's outsourced.
34=11
19,
Tell the interviewer that you are related to the name partner of your 1L firm. Although you could work there as a 1L, there is a no nepotism policy for 2Ls. Worked for me.
ELIE SAID: "[I]t appears that HYS summers went 0 for 4 at Foley Chicago."
That sounds about right to me.
Any HYS student who summers below V50 is obviously a DEAD MAN WALKING, a HUMAN VEGETABLE, UGPA and LSAT scores notwithstanding.
I predict that firms not allowing splits are going to be effed in recruiting top 2Ls this summer. Or that BS "prefer first half" crap that all firms do...
11 = Touro Law Center '08, Order of the Coif
36: Hahahahaha! Abe Froman. The law school kids have no frame of reference for that quote. Excellent work.
38: Shut up, douche. Go to the WSJ legal blog.
Students from top schools who summer at lesser firms as second years (as opposed to first years who are just taking the money and running) usually have something seriously wrong with them. The firm rolls the dice on these weirdos because of their pedigree, hoping that they will "come around" during the summer and that someone will be able to work with them. When that doesn't happen, even the top school can't save them.
FIRST!!!! Oh. . . nevermind.
Foley Associates:
35 years old,
6-figures in debt,
thrice divorced, AND
litigating out of a van down by the river.
34, bitter much?
36 here - thanks 46.
JUST BECAUSE YOU WENT TO HYS DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE MORE WORTHY OF A JOB!!! GET OVER THE HYS THING, ELIE, YOU ELITIST SOB.
Elie,
Great post. Informative, relevant, and witty. Congrats. ATL may be ok again. Well, as long as Hope is gone. Congrats again!
Elie,
Great post. Informative, relevant, and witty. Congrats. ATL may be ok again. Well, as long as Hope is gone. Congrats again!
34 = Foley troll(y)
I am so tired of hearing about "HYS." NYU kids are entitled to jobs too!
No offense, but Yale students suck at real work. Yale really needs to work on this. Every year I am floored that they are still ranked in the top. They have no clue how to write or do any type of substantive work. I'd take a bottom ranked school summer over a Yale summer 90% of the time. Sorry Yalies, but you really need to work on real lawyering skills.
I know a Touro guy who is an AUSA in the SDNY and another who was just hired as an AUSA in EDNY. Methinks that many people who would push their Grandma into traffic for those jobs.
58, Way to prove your illiteracy!
elie is showing promise. this post is both readable and in-scope. nicely done.
I thought the Sausage King of Chicago works at Skadden?
Yikes, this is going to go over well at OCI.
Does anyone know about the offer rate in Foley's Florida offices?
i work at foley and had an opportunity to work with all but two of the no offered folks. although you law students will surely flame away, i can say that none of the individuals i worked with were worthy of an offer. simply, they were incompetent and incapable.
for example, i asked one of the summmers if she would give me a back rub. she refused under the auspices that it would be "inappropriate." please. the truth is that she didn't know how to give a back rub. another 2L turned down my offer to have a drink at my place at 2am on a Tuesday. again, the excuse given was "that's not proper." reality was that the dummy didn't know how to tell the taxi driver to get to my phatty loft in bucktown.
Wow, that's the lowest offer rate ever! Thank God I'm an IP lawyer. :) A summer blood bath of this magnitude at multiple firms seems to suggest Cadwalader-esk bloodbaths in the near future at many firms.
Oh, and IP rocks! Suck it non IP lawyers!
36 and 46--Agreed on the excellent reference!
Isn't it about time for bonus news to start trickling in?
67, You're not getting one. That's the news.
(1) Love the Ralph Wiggum quote.
(2) Elie, please, please, please stop it with the "X% of YHS students got no-offered." Seriously. There's no rational basis for acting like these summers, rather than other summers, were somehow more deserving just on the basis of their school.
18, does your 1L firm have a policy of no returning summers? Mine did and it was well known in my market. 2L OCI firms were impressed that as a 1L I was offered a summer at such a prestigious firm. I also got several recommendations from the senior partners I worked for and they offered to be personal references if needed. None of my 2L interview firms requested the recs or the references.
I accepted an offer from my firm of choice for my 2L summer and accepted a permament offer in August to return next fall.
By summering in your 1L year you will a leg up on most people in your 2L summer class. Happy Hunting, Whoo Rah!!
I'd take top 5% at a TTT school summer anyday over top 30% at YHS. I believe most lawyers agree.
Those kids usually have huge scholarships and the top 5% is just as competitive, if not more competitive than YHS. Also, they know they have to do well because they don't have the options YHS students have.
The lawschool rankings and prestige no longer mean shit.
This hurting Foley at OCI (beyond normal terror factor) implies that people will have choice at OCI.
OCI is frankly shaping up to be pretty dreadful compared to the last several years. I would expect summer classes at least 1/3 smaller than 2007 across the board, and 50% or less at firms that are either going through financial pain or dramatically overhired.
Me thinks the system is changing.
Does anybody know the offer rate at Foley's Bratislava office?
In this economy, firms don't have much options if there are not enough work: (1) offer all summers but fire some associates; (2) keep all associates but no-offer some summers; or (3) keep all associates and offer all summers, and let partners take pay-cut.
Most firms will chose a combination of 1 and 2, but Cadwalader relied on 1 exclusively, and Foley relied on 2.
72,
I agree. Buck up 2L's. You're in for a cage match.
This hurting Foley at OCI implies that Foley will actually be at OCI next year.
I don't think hurting OCI is relevant at all at the moment. Let's think about it. So maybe you don't get many summers for the next 2-3 years. So what?
With the market the way it is, there are tons of 3Ls and graduating law students currently seeking jobs. Summers just waste money and time. If the firm is in trouble, screw over your OCI and wait. There are tons of no offered 3Ls looking for jobs and kids who took a clerkship for a year because they couldn't secure a job. You can pick them up in a year. That way, you're not overextended. Further, you still get the first year associates you need.
Maybe the time for summer classes is coming to an end? I thinks me sees a new trend in lawyer hiring and recruiting in the future.
Sucks to be a law student at the moment.
Ouch. I hope the market turns around soon; many of these former SA's have tons of loans to pay off.
Everyone knows summer programs are a waste of money. But as long as the elite firms do it, and as long as every firm believes they can be an elite firm too, they will continue to have summer programs even if they are wasteful and unneccessary. Of course V30-200 firms can get 3Ls or laterals or law clerks to fill their ranks without resorting to having a summer program. But since they all want to be like the top 30 firms, they will continue to engage in a process that is pointless.
Correcting some numbers:
IP are 7 for 8, the only person no-offered was determined to join another firm before even coming to Foley.
Non-IP are 3 for 12.
HYS are 0 for 3.
Why wouldn't they just cold offer?!?! Sure, there's the risk that a number will still take it, but I'm sure most would not, or at least would try their darndest to go somewhere else. It's really very easy: "We are extending an offer to join [worst practice group at firm], but we really think it would be best if you sought employment elsewhere."
Rumor is that GULC no offered ever one of its students.
Without painting too broad a brush here, Partners resent every last one of you for the amount of money they pay you.
The sooner you figure it out and do everything in your power to take what is yours the happier you will be.
- newly minted partner
EIGHTY-SECOND!
WOOHOO!!! I FINALLY MADE IT!!! EIGHTY-SECONDIES!
Eighty McSecondies
It does suck to be a law student right now, especially with fat and lazy career services who got used to the hiring market taking care of itself.
I know someone who is Top 25% at a T25 with secondary journal. He is freaking out right now because he went through the "good" weeks of OCI and still hasn't heard back from anyone. This guy is not incapable of interviewing (or what passes for law firm interviewing) by any stretch of the imagination.
Last year, this kid would have a half-dozen callbacks by now, at least. It's depressing, and apparently depressing for the career services staff.
Heard last week in the bookstore:
"I just got a call back from Freshfields in Dubai."
Awesome.
Why are people still under the delusion that someone can accept a cold offer?
HOLY ENTITLEMENT BATMAN!! Punk-ass brats!
There are judicial clerks that are having a hard time finding jobs and they are worth 100x more than any 1L or 2L.
The truth is that partying like a rock star all summer while being overpaid for what is often lackluster work product doesn't get you an offer. I guess it is easier to blame the firms.
HOLY ENTITLEMENT BATMAN!! Punk-ass brats!
There are judicial clerks that are having a hard time finding jobs and they are worth 100x more than any 1L or 2L.
The truth is that partying like a rock star all summer while being overpaid for what is often lackluster work product doesn't get you an offer. I guess it is easier to blame the firms.
11 is right. I recently returned from OCI at my law school (chilling in the hospitality sweet soaking up the envy) and the interviewing partner (who is also on the hiring committee) from my v10 NY firm expressly told me he prefers students who are "hungry" from the TTT's of the world (my law school was not in the top 25). He said he was turned off by the overblown sense of entitlement he saw from students at HYS over the last two summers.
He also said his view was shared by other partners on the hiring committee.
It doesn't really matter though, as HYS students will be highly represented in our summer class next year and all summers receive offers (100% again this year). But it's nice to know the partners at my firm respect those of us who appreciate haveing made it to a v10 firm and want to prove we belong by our effort and positive attitude. FYI -- the firm gave 7 call backs to students from my school.
You are all bitches being led to the slaughter. Its miserable work. You will learn to collate copies, staple documents, research esoteric legal points and carry(literally) the bags of other lawyers. An Ivy law degree means nothing anymore. Sure, its better than a degree from Touro or New York Law but it will not help you survive in this crumbling profession.
What law school you went to and what firm you summered at is like what cabin you had on the titanic.
Its not to late for you to find another line of work.
Endofesq.com
90--hospitality sweet? Are you serious?
91 -- grow up. The corporate world means shit work. No one ever promised you a rosegarden. The only thing that matters is that you get paid enough to do the work.
To 85:
T25? What is that? Why not T32? Or T16 1/3?
The sooner you dope students take the following hierarchy to heart, the better life will be for all of you:
* YHS (or HYS, as Elie so humbly insists)
* T10
* T14 (but see infra)
* Schools respected in the region wherein a job-applicant is seeking employment
* GULC
* The Rest
85 here--
GULC.
what does gulc mean?
Georgetown University Law Center.
Commonly also abbreviated as "TTT."
97--So angry!
Foley is the next Testa!!!!! For you kids out there, TTesTa is the original TTT.
gulc is a derogatory term used to refer to an Asian person. please refrain from saying that awful term outside of this blog.
i second 88's comment. judicial clerks are getting "we don't even have room to interview you" letters left & right... even from firms who send out invitations for clerks to apply.
HYS is your only God.
--the United States Government.
"GULC" is lakota for "obnoxious sense of entitlement."
Elie, please stop with the 0% of HYS students got no offered. No one cares about H/S. Lump them in with the rest of the TTT14 like GULC, UVA, Cornell.
94, you forgot the
CCN tier between HYS and T10.
Qu
91 - outstanding!!!!
90 = skaddenite
Foley does need to worry about its reputation. The people they really want will prefer to go to other law firms, even less prestigious ones, instead of a firm that screws over more than half their class.
Foley and Larder completely screwed its summers.
bunch of law students who don't know anything about actual practice and how miserable and horrible it has become. I graduated top of my class from Top 10 -- the money isn't worth it. I'd rather flip pies at Gino's down the street than do this.
HYS is BS, top of class of HYS get V10, so do columbia/nyu, mediocre of class of HYS get V50, so do columbia nyu, bottom of HYS get foley lardner etc, so do columbia/nyu. top tier is HYSCN
Since you just keep coming back 11 (most recently as 90 - congratulating yourself), I suppose I should tell you that Hotel Management at Cornell is not Ivy. People were trying to be nice, but no, you wouldn't let them. A tin ear and an exaggerated sense of envy must be genetic since, from what I've been told, your parents weren't Ivy either.
64 = Foley = TTT = Bucktown
GULC is a derogatory term for a law student who gets shit on by everyone they come across.
Yep, good to be in IP.
While my copporate peers had no work to do, I was able to get 4 lateral offers in T30 firms (one T10) with minimal effort last winter.
Damn, I just learned I'm GULC. :(
114: Which firms hotshot?
I hate when I see GULCers getting shit on all the time. Especially when it happens in an elevator and it stinks.
maybe their summers just sucked really bad
Figgity-first to say:
Faux-ly!
116 - Kirkland, but I passed for a place a few notches lower where I liked the people better.
Nothing to do with my being a hotshot really, its just good to be in IP right now. Im at a place that didn't even give me screening interviews in law school a few years ago. I didn't get any smarter since then, its just a big help having a sci/engineering undergrad degree + patent law seems to be less cyclical than some other areas.
IPGEEKNYC
My impression is that they are still deciding case-by-case on 2L offers. Foley is a good firm to work for, especially if you are in IP.
Foley is TTT is any other city besides Milwaukee.
116 - Correction to 120 above.
I see now Kirkland is #11 but whatever. Point is, being in IP let me "trade up" during a recession.
121 - lot of good going "CBC" at this point does 3L's who are having to (a) decide if they are going to try to get a very difficult-to-get 3L interview and (b) explain whether or not they have an offer.
Hint: "I haven't heard yet" sounds an awful lot like "I was no/cold offered and I'm hoping I won't get found out on it."
I was drunk all summer and still got an offer. suck it
125 = GULC janitor.
Milwaukee to 190!!!
121- Please don't be naive, what could they possibly be considering? They had 12 weeks and one additional month to make a decision.
So does this make Foley the worst no-offer firm of the year?
This makes Foley the worst no-offer firm of the year. Maybe they can still redeem themselves maybe they really are "considering" summers.
CCN?
Let me guess... you go to NYU?
101 and 88 are correct, unfortunately - just got a "no room for an interview" letter the other day. :-(
I can't believe foley would do this. after all of the momentum they've been building over the past few years and the general happiness of everyone in the firm. This seals it. I cannot accept my offer there and I will encourage all of my classmates to run as far as possible from this place.
133- I hope you're being sarcastic. If you give up your offer you're an idiot.
Foley was building a reputation for being a pretty good and nice firm to work for. Now they just suck.
133- I hope you're being sarcastic. If you give up your offer you're an idiot.
Foley was building a reputation for being a pretty good and nice firm to work for. Now they just suck.
Don't be a retard 133!! The market is tough right now. You should be happy to have an offer from a firm that has exercised some real thought and discretion in the selection process.
If everyone was extended an offer you would be complaining about that! Never satisfied. 88 and 101 hit the nail on the head.
It's the economy stupid!!