Nationwide No Offer Watch: Rocky Balboa Division
Blank Rome and Pepper Hamilton
Our continuing coverage of no offers suggests that a 90% offer rate is actually outstanding. Today we have news from two more firms that fell short of 90% but still made offers to the majority of their 2008 summer associates.
Our tipsters were right on the money with the information that Blank Rome no offered 4 summer associates out of a class size in the mid-20s. According to Blank Rome spokesperson Topper Ray:
Our 2008 summer associate class was comprised of 28 summer associates -24 2L’s and 4 1L’s. 20 out of 24 2L’s received offers.
Ray also confirmed that the 4 1Ls received invitations to summer with the firm next year.
In this market an 83% offer rate isn’t terrible, even though Blank Rome was able to extend offers to all of their 2007 summer associates.
The news was a little worse at another Philadelphia powerhouse, Pepper Hamilton. According to Pepper Hamilton spokesperson Polly Coxe:
In 2008, Pepper Hamilton extended offers to 20 of 27 summer associates in Philadelphia (two students withdrew from consideration before we made offer decisions). Firm-wide, we made offers to 30 of 38 summer associates. This is approximately the same number of offers we extended the past two years.
More from the streets of Philadelphia after the jump.
Coxe is exactly right that the overall number of offers extended match last year’s total. In 2007 Pepper Hamilton made 19 summer associate offers in their Philadelphia office. But according to NALP that number was out of a 21 person summer class. 90% of 2007 summers received offers, this year only 74% of the Philadelphia summers were so lucky.
Again, we are left to wonder what exactly the no offered summers did, if anything, to get left off the gravy train.
The summer of 2008 is certainly proving that summer programs are just extended interviews. However, we still don’t know what exactly the firms are looking for.
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I'm FIRSTY!!
I SECOND your being FIRSTY!
thirdsty?
1, 2, 3 = TTT
"Again, we are left to wonder what exactly the no offered summers did, if anything, to get left off the gravy train."
i'm friends with one of the pepper no-offers (non-philly). they're an A+ quality law review editor, a real straight shooter. they told me they had no warning and hadn't received any adverse criticism up until the no-offer.
classy, eh?
bang!
Awful
Guess no Philly cheese steaks (the real kind with Cheez Whiz) is in order for the no offered associates.
BTW, isn't it Blank Raum?
what about edwards angel - they no offered a lot of people in certain offices
what about edwards angel - they no offered a lot of people in certain offices
Who F'ing cares? It's Philly. The no offer folks are way better off than those poor saps working in that hole of a city.
what about Sonnenschein (Chicago)? a few 1Ls at my school liked it there last summer, but I haven't heard great things financially. should I even go on the callback?
12 - NO
I'm not sure how to pronounce these- do they rhyme with "TTT"?
Can someone please shed light on the Kirkland bonus structure? Thanks.
I thought PepperHamilton closed down years ago. They still exist?
Do they think they're pulling one over on us?
(1) "two students withdrew from consideration before we made offer decisions"
Do they think we don't know that that means, "we told two students to withdraw themselves from consideration, because that's how we do cold offers around here."
(2) "This is approximately the same number of offers we extended the past two years."
Same number of offers, but many more rejections. If you gave offers to 30/30 summers one year, and then 30/40 the next year, that's not the same thing.
Pepper Hamilton is consistently involved in some of Philly's most complex cross border transactions and bet the firm litigation.
Says Topper Ray of Blank Rome: "Our 2008 summer associate class was comprised of 28 summer associates."
OK, that is BULLSHIT. Either a large whole *comprised* several smaller entities, or the large whole _was_composed_of_ several smaller entities. Get it fucking right, you stupid spokesperson.
I hate stupid people who say stupid things and then hug their wife.
I lived in Philly for two years. If you have any other options, go somewhere else.
Anyone want to apologize to Foley now? Looks like its mid-80s offer percentage is market rate.
I'm sorry Foley.
Sincerely,
Rodgin Cohen's Sphincter
Philly is a great place to live if you are a fan of EXCELLENT college basketball.
meh, Philly's a great place to live if you want a 1300 sf place in center city (w/ a yard and a parking spot), a car, a fully-funded 401(k), and put $3500/mo in the bank as a second-year. otherwise, don't bother.
To be specific, Pepper Hamilton spent the entire summer boasting about their amazing expansion rate and their ability to give offers to their entire summer associate class. Not once did anyone at Pepper indicate anything other than "there are no surprises when it comes to offers." However, when Pepper decided to notify their summer associates in late August, weeks after every other legitimate "big firm," summer associates were notified that Pepper was unable to give offers to all of their summer associates and that they were extremely sorry for the situation. While it is impossible to speak for all of the summer associates who did not receive offers, at least a few of them went through the entire summer without a negative review and without incident.
Not nearly enough attention has been paid to the poor, dishonest treatment that Pepper Hamilton displayed this summer. If you are choosing a firm in Philadelphia, please consider an honest, sincere firm that will be truthful about its intentions and policies from the beginning...rather than a boastful firm that devotes more energy to portraying a positive image instead of actually spending time speaking to its associates and summer associates about internal matters.
25 knows what's going on.
All of the haters here live in NY or DC and their 160k goes half as far as the 145k goes in Philly. I suppose I would be frustrated too if I thought I was more qualified, and I worked more hours, yet I had less at the end of the day.
Philly is the GULC of American cities. It imagines itself to be in the same league as NY and DC, but, despite all the rationalizations, knows it never will be.
I moved from NY to Philly and have no regrets. My standard of living has improved greatly. Hours are reasonable, and I now have a very spacious apartment in center city with a private courtyard. I even have my very own washer and dryer, all for less than $2k per month.
But lawyers hoping to cash in on a lower cost of living should think twice before leaving a higher paying market. While an associate making $145k in Philly is able to bank significantly more cash than an associate making $160k in New York, the financial advantage ends there.
Bonuses in Philly are significantly smaller and top out at about $15k at most big firms. Most importantly, pay is rarely lock-step with associate year as it is in New York, and mid-level associates do not make much more than first years. Even 7th year associates in Philly will typically make less than $200k.
Also, there are only a handful of big firms here in Philly, so a sub-par associate is not able to lateral multiple times from big firm to big firm to the same extent they are able to in larger markets. After one lateral, you will be hard pressed to make a move anywhere but down.
I will be the first to say that Philly does not deserve its terrible reputation, but please look beyond first year starting salaries when assessing the financial impact of working in Philly.
29: I agree with your post, except that bonuses - at least at my firm- topped off at $60K last year.
E-A-G-L-E-S! E-A-G-L-E-S! E-A-G-L-E-S! GO EAGLES!!!
Philly's also proud to be home of the original campus of Penn law. I don't know why anyone would go to their State College or Harrisburg campuses instead of coming here. Has anyone heard of any other ivy league schools having three law school campuses?
5 and 26 are right on. The whole summer Pepper told its summers - "no surprises" and "we have room for everyone." The no offered summers that I know of had great reviews, no warning, were top of the class at local schools and T14 also... so, 2L's beware because they just might misrepresent the program to you... just maybe...
If I was a 2L I would stay clear of Pepper Hamilton--they think they are much bigger and much better than they really are--
Elie, why did you leave Reed Smith out of the Philly no-offer roundup? Do some more digging!
32: Penn's third campus is in Carlisle, Pa., not Harrisburg. It took over Dickinson College's school of law there several years ago.
36: Penn State has far more than three campuses. There are Philly, State College, and Carlisle, but also several smaller campuses in places like Altoona. You are correct that the law school campuses are in Philly and Carlisle.
I'm not surprised by Pepper's actions here...
12 - Why did you even screen with Sonnenschein?
38: why not surprised?
38 - why not surprised?
Pepper doesn't surprise me. Remember this anyone? http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2008/01/31/law-blog-law-job-seeker-of-the-day-pietro-devolpi/
the link in 42 doesnt work, but the kid summered at pepper both summers and got effed
the link in 42 doesnt work, but the kid summered at pepper both summers and got effed
That kid also seems like a giant tool. Nice move Pepper. Firms need to take the EAPD route if they're not going to match the previous year's numbers so summers are put on notice for fall recruiting.
Why would anyone work in Philly for improved standard of living? If that's what is important to you there are better options. Chicago has better firms, more pay, more to do and comparable cost of living. If not NY and you're looking for low cost of living in a big city, Chicago can't be beat.
Rumor has it Duane Morris also no offered summers - any truth??
46: Chicago - bad weather, terrible pizza, and the Midwest. Not better than Philly.
A plus for Pepper, Stephen Starr is doing their cafeteria.
48 = bitter GULCer
No 37 -- There's some confusion here. Penn is an ivy league school with campuses in Philadelphia, Carlisle and State College. Those other "campuses" are independent Pennsylvania state schools. I guess the confusion comes from people's shorthand reference to Penn's State College campus as "Penn-State."
There's major confusion. Penn STATE is a totally different school than Penn. Univ. of Pennsylvania (the ivy league one) has one campus, in Philly. Penn State University (the state school one, think Joe-Pa) has a ton of campuses, but only two for its law school - carlisle and state college.
No 51 and 52 - you are the ones that are confused. You obviously have not been reading this blog long enough.
52 is a newbie. Stay off the comments until you understand the significance of Frat Stud, LOLCAT, GULCer, Hope Winters, University of Penn State, pretzels that make people firsty, and of course TTT.
Actually, 52 is probably a oneL at GULC.
52 may be a newbie, but he also has his facts wrong (as does 51). Isn't there a Penn campus in Wharton too?
The kid at 42 was not a summer associate, he was a law clerk.
Yeah, you should look into Reed Smith.
This is nothing compared to Reed Smith. Class of 17 summers (including 1 in Wilmington) and only 7 2Ls were given offers. 2 were waitlisted. The rest were thrown to the curb. All summer, the firm talked about its rapid growth and how its immune to the economic downturn (Greg Jordan said RS will increase total profits this year) and yet turns around and pull this. If you need help digging, ask the law school career offices in Philadelphia -- I'm sure they can verify these "rumors."
Any word about the Pittsburgh Pepper Hamilton in particular?
This was a "Rocky Balboa division" story about Philadelphia. Whay all the comments about Pittsburgh-based firms like Pepper Hamilton?
Because Pepper has a small satellite office in Philly.
Hey 30,
I was referring to first years when I said bonuses topped out around $15k. Do you mean senior associates at your firm get $60k? Either way, please tell me what firm you are at, and I will submit my application immediately.
Thanks,
29
62 - I'm not 30, but I do know a third year who received a $55K bonus at Blank last year.
52 is correct. The University of Pennsylvania is in Philadelphia. The Law School is on 34th and Chestnut.
Penn State University is a land-grant state school, with its main campus in University Park (State College), Pa, in Centre County. Penn State University took over Dickinson School of Law many years ago, and it is based in Carlisle, Pa, west of Harrisburg. They recently opened up a branch of the law school on the main campus.
Penn and Penn State are completely different entities.
I don't understand why 52 is being called a newbie (unless the m.o. on here is to post deliberately incorrect information).
55 - The Wharton School of Business is part of the University of Pennsylvania, and it is located on 38th and (I believe) Walnut in Philadelphia. It is not a law school.
Penn State University has many branch campuses around the state - Harrisburg, Reading, Great Valley, Hazelton, and like 20 others. This is almost entirely undergraduate, I believe.
63--
how many hours did the 3rd year at blank have to bill to get a 55k bonus??
i heard one of the no offers was a complete douche who showed up at 10am everyday
19, you are wrong about "comprise" vs. "compose":
com⋅prise
/kəmˈpraɪz/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kuhm-prahyz] Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object), -prised, -pris⋅ing.
1. to include or contain: The Soviet Union comprised several socialist republics.
2. to consist of; be composed of: The advisory board comprises six members.
3. to form or constitute: Seminars and lectures comprised the day's activities.
—Idiom
4. be comprised of, to consist of; be composed of: The sales network is comprised of independent outlets and chain stores.
12 - Sonnenschein Chicago does not need any more associates. Beware!
the Blank Rome numbers are a flat out lie! at the Philly office alone 3 people were no-offered....and 4 people were told that they may or may not receive an offer sometime between now and January 2011. how that means 20 out of 24 received offers blows my mind!