Spoiler alert: Soylent Green is people. It's people.

bang!

I live in the city and love having the police around.

"the identify politics"? Seriously?

pabst brewing association? wtf is pba?

patrolmen's benevolent association.

quite quiet.

"if you live in a big city most of your interaction with the police involves them hassling you, your friends, and your rights"

Really? Most of my interaction with the police involves watching them not giving a sh*t, since my friends and I are just drunk and stupid, not committing crimes.

I disagree with your comment that "if you live in a big city most of your interaction with the police involves them hassling you, your friends, and your rights."

I lived in midwest suburbs all my life until moving the NYC 3 years ago. When I lived in the suburbs, my only interaction with police was on the roads. Every time I saw an cop I started worrying: was I under the speed limit? Are my tail lights working? Are my tags current? Every interaction involved getting a ticket or the threat of getting a ticket for inadvertently violating some BS traffic ordinance.
In NYC, however, (assuming you aren't driving) the cops wont bother you unless you're actually doing something wrong. I no longer cringe and worry about getting a ticket every time I see an officer.

"A tourist breathes a sigh of relief when they are walking down a dark alley and a patrol car rolls by. A city dweller avoids the stupid alley altogether, unless they are doing something that requires the privacy of dark, dank urban escapes."

I would breath a sigh of relief if you managed to write post without obvious grammar defects.

guys in my suburban high school didn't like the police when they were committing crimes either. it was neither a big deal nor an urban/suburban thing.

The police in DC don't even stop for pedestrians at crosswalks. But to be fair, you can also blatantly jaywalk in front of a squad car and they don't even bat an eye.

Mystal, I'm not sure you've earned pontification-status. This is still a courtship with Lat's readership, with everyone hoping merely that you'll find worthwhile stories. Prove to us that you can find consistently entertaining and interesting stuff (a la Lat about a year or two ago when he benefitted from---and exploited---the salary craze), and then maybe you can test the hey-here's-a-three-hundred-word-diatribe-on-my-experiences waters. Until then, more posts, fewer insights.

No driver in DC stops for pedestrian in crosswalks. I've been nearly killed many times for merely asserting my right of way when I have the signal. DC is a horrible pedestrian city.

Elie I think you are trying to take an extremely complicated topic and make it, excuse my pun, black and white.

the Police-Public relationship is a complicated one as some cultures fear the police and some see them as a friend. For example it has been shown that Chinese immigrants distrusted the American police because Chinese police were corrupt when they grew up there.

The only general assumption that can be made is, if your jury has committed crimes, chances are they will have distrust for police and wont like them and be easier on you.

Need to feel safe ? Shall-issue CCW, baby.

This is, like, an editorial.

I kinda like it, but it isn't standard ATL fare.

18th!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

8, congrats to you. and if you've never been harassed, then it must be true that the police have never harassed anyone. never. excellent logic.

Its a self reinforcing cycle, in suburbia, people are nice to the police (and have more control over them at small town elections), police therefor are respectful of the people, everyone wins.

In an urban area, there are alot more bad apples, they are the ones the police almost exclusively deal with, the police become jaded, and treat everyone like they are a bad apple. People therefor hate the cops and treat them accordingly. Also, the chain of acountability between a cop and a citizen is much longer...

12 -- accidentally, DC Police WILL give you a ticket for jaywalking. My husband (boring white guy lobbyist) got one near Capitol Hill last year.

And "Apparently, urban juries don't trust the police, while suburban juries do. " Is this REALLY news? This is not exactly an earth-shattering revelation.

Sophist, where the hell is the post about Hurricane Ike. We need to make sure our Houston attorneys are safe. Geez!!!

THIS POST SUCKS.

21 -- those aren't District (DC) Police that gave your husband a ticket -- those are federal Capitol Police. Capitol police will give you a jaywalking ticket -- that's well known in the District.

I agree with some of the above posts. This issue is a very complex and serious one. It is not really fit for the ATL format because of the depth needed to really get at the issue.

19, don't be retarded.

8 never says nobody has ever been harassed. The original story asserts that for most people in big cities, police interaction generally involves harassment. 8 says that he lives in a big city and has generally not been harassed by police. This is a counterexample which provides evidence against the general claim from the story. This is not tough logic to follow.

Agree with 9. In the burbs, my most common reaction to police is fear that they are gonna give me a ticket. In the city, I knew they had better things to do, and weren't going to bother me about some minor infraction. I feel like suburban cops are out to raise revenue by writing tickets while city cops are really there to protect me. Of course, intellectually I know that both serve the same purpose, but that's my gut. I also fell like city cops are "real" cops in a way suburban cops aren't. Again - gut feeling.

Elie - you might have a different reaction to the police pre- and post- Guilliani. NYC is one of the safest cities in the world now, thanks to Rudy. In the Dinkins era, you might have been much happier to see a cop car roll by when you were walking past the hookers and pimps in Times Square.

Great point by 25, more blogs about layoffs, summer programs and bonus anticipation/dread, less pseudo-philosophical bad grammar ramblings.

I didn't think "duh" was spelled "d'uh." I thought "D'oh" had the apostrophe but "duh" didn't. Thoughts?

all of you posters stating that you've never had nasty encounters with urban 5-0 are probably pale males. If you are black and live in an urban area, you've most likely had an encounter with the police that left a bad taste in your mouth.

However, the reasons black and hispanic peoples are the only ones who get into it with urban police is a topic for a whole separate thread. It's the chicken and egg question - do police hassle minorities disproportionately because minorities are the vast majority of criminals, or are minorities the vast majority or criminals because the police hassle them?

29th

Nice post Prof. Mystal. I'll make sure to sit near the front in your seminar next semester.

When deciding where to take vacations I generally try to pick a city with many back alleys to walk through at night. But then again I'm a common prostitute and like the trips to pay for themselves.

This s the best post I have seen in a while. Thoughtful, concise and informed though very opinionated. Felt like I could have written this, grammer mistakes and all.

Suburban (whites)people love the cops; they keep us minorities out of their neighborhoods.

Police are like any other people in any other occupation. Some are great, some aren't so great.

I also try to cut them some slack b/c they have one of the toughest jobs everyday. Think about it, NO ONE is ever happy to see a cop. Even if you're a victim, you're still not thrilled b/c you/your property has been violated in some way. And everyone gives them aggravation.

That's why, when I see any urban police officer, I give them nothing but respect.

28, crime was on the way down before Rudy got here (but of course that doesn't stop him from taking credit).

This s the best post I have seen in a while. Thoughtful, concise and informed though very opinionated. Felt like I could have written this, grammer mistakes and all.

Suburban (whites)people love the cops; they keep us minorities out of their neighborhoods.

Police are like any other people in any other occupation. Some are great, some aren't so great.

I also try to cut them some slack b/c they have one of the toughest jobs everyday. Think about it, NO ONE is ever happy to see a cop. Even if you're a victim, you're still not thrilled b/c you/your property has been violated in some way. And everyone gives them aggravation.

That's why, when I see any urban police officer, I give them nothing but respect.

Whites have plenty of negative encounters with police. Not having a negative attitude about the police doesn't imply never having had a negative experience with them.

Aside, I'm wondering how anybody thinks it's acceptable to refer to white guys as "pale males".

You are an AWFUL, AWFUL writer. Every post is awful. Quit now. What is this?

One can argue that splitting jury pools in this way is "code" for making a black-white distinction, but once the jurisdiction is picked it becomes harder to voir dire yourself into a conviction/acquittal.

26 - Thank you.

-8

I sincerely hope the odds are higher than that and that statement becomes reality.

Nonsense.

Suburban cops harass people cause they've got nothing better to do. Urban cops don't fuck with you cause they're busy.

Both think they're god on wheels. Urban cops are more prone to brutality. Suburban cops are more prone to graft. Both are just barely better than those from whom they protect us.

Poor writing? Check.

Poor explanation of the underlying issues? Check.

Rambling pontification with next to zero insight? Check.

ATL reverting to the blogosphere mean? Check.

At least this post had content and had thought behind it -- I liked it. Keep 'em coming, Elie.

I'm a white female, and every interaction I've ever had with police has been negative. I've lived in rural areas, the suburbs, NYC, and Chicago. Everywhere I've been, I've felt that police were just there to hassle me, ticket me, and generally prove that they have power over me. I feel a twinge of fear every time I see one.

Have you ever lived in the suburbs? The cops do nothing BUT harass people for no reason.

I think this is interesting...I'm surprised to see this on ATL though...this seems like a Volokh kinda topic. Nevertheless...I think the connection seems kinda obvious. I lived for 7years in a suburb of San Francisco called Moraga that was part of a community of three suburbs. This place has median home prices of 800k and median incomes over 100k. There are far wealthier places in the area (Blackhawk, Danville, Alamo, etc) but Moraga is a pretty well off place.

I knew the police personally-I met them at various community funtions, the local coffee house, sandwich shop, grocery store and so on. When there were questions from some students of color about racial profiling I called the chief, at home, set up lunch and we talked for hours about how his officers are trained, where the training could be strengthened, and how to help students identify strategies for responding to suspected profiling. I was once driving my friends parents car, got pulled over for speeding (70 in a 35), explained what the situation was and realized I knew the officer...he'd been at my wedding. We laughed about the fancy new tech in the car and then I drove off-no ticket, ni citation, no question. If I was on a jury for a crime in moraga and the cops said that the defendant did it I probably would believe them.

Now I live in Oakland (for five years or so)...I have never met a cop and I only see them when they are arresting a young Black or Latino man in my neighborhood. We had some break-ins near my home and the police response was, at best, tepid. My neighbor (a minster) and his wife (also a minster) were pulled over, taken out of their cars, on a "fit the description" sort of thing. The crazy thing was that they were coming home with a car full of groceries and the timestamped receipt was in the bag. The Po, Po refused to look and only when a witness said, it wasn't them, did they let them go. In Moraga this probably wouldn't have happened.

So if I was on a jury about a case with OPD I might be a bit more doubtful of the veracity of the claim of the police.

47 - translation: cops are assholes unless you know them personally.

Moral of the story, it's primarily a racial and socioeconomic issue. These factors tie in to differences between suburban and urban communities, certainly. But many other seemingly trivial issues come into play, such as prevailing modes of transportation as mentioned by #9. It's just not as simple and clear cut as the story implies.

this site has become a black entertainment post.

Elie,

This is Above the Law. Why don't you find out what precautions the big firms in Houston are taking in preparation for Hurricane Ike. See? That story is both timely and relevant to the readership of the site. Would have thought they would teach people how to write for their audience at Harvard. Maybe you missed that class because you were distracted by a ball of string with some catnip hidden in it.

Or, alternatively, just stay in your safety zone. Looking forward to the 1000 word diatribe on how much you love wiping your butt with recycled toilet paper coming up after lunch.

thank you 51

-22

this blog is being run into the toilet, bring back Lat full time NOW!

34 - "Suburban (whites)people love the cops; they keep us minorities out of their neighborhoods."

Actually, keeping you out is becoming a lot harder these days. Anyone can live anywhere. The ballgame is in ensuring that you don't bring your ghetto values with you.

34 - "Suburban (whites)people love the cops; they keep us minorities out of their neighborhoods."

Actually, keeping you out is becoming a lot harder these days. Anyone can live anywhere. The ballgame is in ensuring that you don't bring your ghetto values with you.

Elie -- I feel cheated and defrauded by your conduct during the ATL Idol competition. During the competition, you wrote stories infused with humorous facts. Now you are using ATL as your personal soapbox to promote agenda. If you had given any indication of this intention during the competition, you would've been out the first round. You would've received more hate comments than that guy who quit before the first vote was cast. I never would've voted for you, and I'm sure many others would not have either.

I hoped it wouldn't come to this, but you've forced me to bring back the shame pole. Elie, shame on you for ruining ATL and turning it into your personal soapbox.

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I hope this public rididule hurts.

i shit on you post

"if you live in a big city most of your interaction with the police involves them hassling you, your friends, and your rights"
---W.T.F. Are you serious? I've lived in New York for 10 years; the only time the police have ever "hasseled" me was when I was drunkenly arguing with someone late at night on the street--in other words, gearing up for a potential fight. So the cop was DOING HIS JOB CORRECTLY.
Mystal, the police aren't hasselling you and your friends and whatever "rights'" you made up this week; you're just acting like a jackass, and your friends are doing it to. Perhaps you shouldn't think that its your right to go cavorting down the street wasted or stoned at 3am and kicking over trash cans and peeing on parked cars or, alternatively, committing vandalism and throwing rocks at windows during your "peaceful" protest.

get a clue, you drunk hippie.

cue the paranoid, self-absorbed black guys talking about "DWB" when they were doing 55 in a 35 with their radios blaring at 3am in suburbia in 3....2....1

Agree with the majority here.

Elie, just because you find a minor legal angle in a story doesn't mean we want to hear your political rants. This is a legal gossip board, not DailyKos. Bring us stories of raises, layoffs, judges in jail, summer associate hook-ups, law firm mergers, and law school rankings.

There are hundreds of sites that do political commentary. If we want that, we know where to go. If we want legal gossip, this is (supposed to be) the place.

elie doesn't care. He has a law degree from an Ivy and spens his days serving up this black bullshit and liberal agenda to all that will listen. That's why there is always some political undertone.

Go work for the Obama campaign if that's what you want to do.

Thanks for the link and for adding these thoughts. I do have to say that the Baltimore study I was writing about offers many possible factors that may affect the differences between urban and suburban verdicts, not just attitudes toward police.

Anne Reed, Deliberations

comment of support here. The suburb/urban difference just correlates with the white/minority difference.

comment of support here. The suburb/urban difference just correlates with the white/minority difference.