It helps immensely to be first or SECOND in your class.

Turd

Offers your insights everyday in class. Don't worry if they are not at all related to the topic at hand. This is especially true if you are an older student with "real life experience."

1. Quit

2. If you fail #1, make sure you know right people

3. If you fail #1 and #2, cheat

Law is a joke. In three years time you could earn $100k and you know, be on your way to a career as opposed to starting a job you will leave in less time it took you to spend $150k to get the degree in the first place. And don't start in with the "I want to help people and make a difference". Anyone can help people and make a difference and a law degree from any school will allow you to represent those people who truly need it.

Having a JD gives you a better chance of scoring a date with Kash, who thinks she knows something about the law because she was billed out at $250/hr as a paralegal doing cite checks and making photocopies, but only made about $10/hr for said work.

6: Kash rocks.

4: hey, i take that personally. i was an older student, and my real life experience taught me to "shut the hell up when you don't know what you're talking about, and most of the time even when you do."

now, if you had said "especially true if you are an llm student and can enlighten us all on a daily basis how things are done 'in your country'." . . .

Find a picture of Kash and study it like your life depends on it. It'll open doors to biglaw and prestigious clerkships.

p.s.
Love ya Kash.

Commercial outlines are your friend. And read those books about how to IRAC.

Don't get GULCed. It will scar you for like and it stings a little.

QUIT Immediately. You've chosen an oversaturated industry filled with freaks. #5 offers the best advice.

Get Glannon's on Civil Procedure.

Regarding 4 and 8,

My experience was that the most obnoxious people in the class were those that had been out of school long enough to acquire a bit of confidence, but not long enough to acquire the wisdom to keep their mouth shut.

Geezer

Skip class and just show up at final. You will get same grades.

go find a more rewarding career, it is what you are going to looking for about 2 years out of lawschool anyway, so why not save yourself the debt.

Don't be that tool that reads one assignment ahead before every class, and brings up startling questions and insights from that next assignment to the class discussion at hand to show how smart you are. Everyone knows what you are doing, and we laugh at you behind your back.

If you won't take #5 and #12's advice, always remember to go to your professor after an exam and bitch about your grades. I know someone who did this and received higher grades as a result. She may have been the biggest bitch at my school, and everyone hated her for it, but she's at a big NYC firm now, and only from a T50 school.

My advice is don't listen to the terrible advice people give you.

My advice is to find 19 and beat him or her

If your professor wrote his own book/case packet for the course, don't use a commerical outline.

Sleep with a 3L, and have him or her get you outlines for your classes.

If your professor wrote his own book/case packet for the course, drop the course

Strive to be perceived as a "gunner." It is a surefire way to get good grades.

Drop out now unless you're on scholarship or going to a top school and come from a top undergrad.

Drugs. Hard drugs.

Truckers usually have the best stuff around so make sure you know where the local truck stop is. Dress pretty when you go there.

Yeah 24 is right.

The more you talk in class, the more your classmates will respect you and the higher class rank you will get.

Also: get the Civ Pro Examples and Explinations. It is The bible.

Yeah 26 is right.

Sniffles are a small price to pay for banging out 10+ pages of brilliant A work in a single sitting.

Never pay for your own lunch. There is always free pizza to be had at lunch time if you look hard enough.

Your real-life experience will be more informative to your classmates if you pick out one point about your life and relate every concept to it. For instance, if you spent a year in Germany, make sure the first words out of your mouth each time you are called upon are "In Germany . . ."

You will be SBA president in no time.

29 = FACT

Don't join a study group. They are time wasters.

Also, despite all the talk about how law school is supposed to teach you to "think like a lawyer", succeeding in exams is 90% based on how well you memorized the class.

Oh, and don't reinvent the wheel. Just get old outlines from others who took the class with that professor.

Guys -

Identify the smartest girl in the class and endeavor to make her fall in love with you by 3L year (flowers, lifetime network marathons, pearl diving..whatever it takes). When she secures an offer from a "prestigous" firm after 2L year, lay it on thick. Upon graduation, take some of your loan money and buy her a rock. When it is time to study for the bar exam, change your mind about the practice of law and tell her you want to raise the kids. And just like that - you've made law school worth it.

Peace, Dandy Gadfly, III

Study groups will suffer from the free-rider problem. What's more, first semester of 1L year, no one knows who is smart and who is dumb. Most of the gunners will actually wind up being dumb.

Don't bother with study groups for actual learning.

I agree with the Listless Lawyer that "your only goal should be good grades."

Get good grades, especially If you don't go to a top school. Grades in law school matter, big time.

Your 1L year is one really long vocab lesson. Treat it as such and you'll be fine.

Grades. Grades. Grades. Grades. If you want Biglaw, clerkships, or top-shelf government work, GRADES.

Grades are less important if you go to a T10 school, but not very as they still rank you for the absolute cream jobs.

Outside of that, grades are paramount.

If it's not a strength of yours, don't do your own outlines. I got scared by people saying that you're doomed if you use somebody else's outline - absolutely untrue. If you have a great outline from the class from a previous year done by somebody who did well, just follow along in class and insert anything that's changed. I found physically outlining classes a huge waste of time, but I know people who thought it was essential to their revisiting the information. Different strokes.

V Monky say fuck first-fuck HARD!

drink, heavily.

Quit now.

Check grade distributions. Take the profs who gave the best grades.

@43 is great advice if you actually do well, but take the profs that give everyone the grade at the curve if you want to do no work and get the same grade as everyone who does

Take seminar courses as early and often as possible - then tend to have higher curves and will help your GPA. Save all the Bar courses for 3L year. Their only purpose if to help you pass the Bar...your only goal is to pass the Bar and get as high a GPA as possible

1. Law school is largely a game of hide the ball, wherein you are expected to derive “the law” from reading cases. BS. Get the Nutshell series or Examples and Explanations for each 1L class (I prefer the E&E, but go with what works for you), and read the relevant section before reading the corresponding assignment for class. Instead of reading and rereading a case and going WTF, you will have context, and therefore comprehension, on the first read through. This will save you hours of studying and much frustration.
2. Commercial outlines are a waste of time. Write your own outlines, and rework your outlines every few weeks. The learning comes from the assembling and condensing of your own outlines, not from having an encyclopedic outline given to you.
3. Class is a waste of time, but attend enough to monitor how things are going, glean the individual professor’s personal predilections, and not be perceived by the proff and classmates as irresponsible.
4. Relax. Seriously. If you take the above advice and are reasonably intelligent, law school can be a relaxing three years. Smoke some pot, meet your neighbors, get a dog, go to the beach. Life is too short to stress all the time, and you won’t ever get these three years back.
5. Constant efforts to reveal your brilliance in class reveal, rather than conceal, your insecurities.
6. Wear the patch for exams and the week or two before, even if you don’t smoke. Nicotine helps long and short term potentiation (memory), and reduces the deleterious effects of stress on recall.
7. The law is a human endeavor, directed at regulating human conflict and most other human endeavors, so try being a human being and not an a**hole.

34 is kind of right in that you don't know who is the smartest and who isn't. Answering all the profs questions isn't what makes you do well. However, working with other people and teaching them what you know can be helpful for you to improve your understanding. Also, after a class finishes a major section of the course you should write a small essay one what you learned. This is helpful to build a writing style and really put your thoughts into words, which is essential for writing exams answers quickly. All of your work should be geared toward getting ready to write exams, and follow IRAC.

Amend your application now

I agree with a lot of these posts - quit before the tuition grace period ends and go do something you really love with your life.

If you decide to stick with it, whatever you do - DO NOT take any classes where the exam is multiple choice. Everyone in the class will have all the questions and answers from past exams and if you miss just one question, you are almost guaranteed a B.

Don't fuck someone in your same little section. It can get ackward.

Don't fuck someone thats is in the same little section you are in. It can get ackward.

"From the Listless Lawyer, 'your only goal should be good grades.'"

Ugh. Figure out what makes you happy first, then go all out. Don't listen to what someone else says is the ideal life.

And yeah, you should probably quit.

First year grades matter because that's what potential employers will look at during interviews for the 2L summer. Exams matter - if your professors make old exams available, it wouldn't hurt to do a couple of practice exams before your first real exam. (I found that a lot more useful than revising my outlines.) As others have said, what happens in class generally doesn't matter at all

DO NOT focus on reading the actual cases. People get bogged down in b.s. like Pennoyer vs. Neff before they realize, halfway through the semester, that it was overruled. Find good briefs and avoid reading the case over more than once.

Rules, rules, rules. A few facts. The general concept of, for instance, promissory estoppel. That's it. There's nothing more in those fifty dense pages for you. DON'T READ THEM.

Spend the first two weeks of class looking at exams. Read Getting to Maybe. Fixate on what you'll have to learn in order to do well on these exams, which is often very little. Do you understand proximate cause? Good. Now take 50 practice exams on which you have to analyze it and ignore all those obscurantist Cardozo-penned opinions and cases.

Ignore everyone else. They have no idea what they're doing. They're still reading Pennoyer. Guess what, genuises? It was overturned in International Shoe with minumum contacts. Enjoy the bottom of the curve.

Take practice exams. Talk to your professors about them. Take more. Practice exams. Practice exams.

Don't ignore your professor's bloviating too much. NEVER FORGET THAT YOU CLASS IS GEARED TOWARD UNDERSTANDING HIS VERSION OF TORT'S, NOT YOURS. You will only need to know what he covers. Ignore everything else. Didn't get to strict liability in Torts? Who cares? Leave it to the partner to teach you that. You don't need to know it for the final.

And have fun! If you're at a T10, don't sweat it. Places like Cravath may look good on a resume, but you can learn just as much at your regional firm back in Idaho, and they'll respect your degree from Columbia much more.

Best,

Mr. Practice Exams.

After 1L year, grades don't matter. But they matter a hell of a lot the first year. So study a lot initially and then forget about it.

Wear an adult diaper to exams so you don't have to waste precious time getting up to go to the bathroom.

RESIST the urge to change the way you speak to others...Please do not adopt the phrase, "I would argue" like all 1Ls do. Gawd I was sick of people prefacing every statement with that f'ing phrase.

Con Law - Chemerinsky
Contracts - Chirelstein
CivPro - Glannon
Legal Writing - Volokh

No one listens to the 'quit now' message, stop wasting your breath.

I was told to either a.) do something else or b.) quit during first year (pre- massive debt load) and do something positive with my life. So were you.

Law students are all the same. If they were truly smart and listened well, they would not be enrolled in law school.

Also eliminate the phrase "It seems to me..."

We don't give a sh*t.

the people you have sex with in law school will be, on average, smarter than the people you had sex with in college. a mixed blessing.

When discussing Roe v. Wade, do not say:

"When my aunt died, she left me her cat. Now, I hate cats, but when I couldn't find anyone to take it from me, I had to have it put down. When I think about how hard it was to put that cat down, I cannot imagine what it would be like to have an abortion." -- Girl who will forever be known as "CatKiller"

57 - I'm of the opinion that it seems as if you should stop prefacing your comments with "I would argue." It could be argued, rather, that you should simply say, "I think."

61 - you must've gone to a TTT college AND a TTT law school.

don't use a rolly-bag. those kids were obnoxious.

54 is right, except that the facts are damn important. if you don't know why the rule came out a certain way, you're clueless once the facts change. law school exams are all about analogies.

45 is also right, but forgot to mention that the only "bar course" worth taking is Evidence. don't bother with the rest; you can learn what you need to learn in bar/bri. i took fed tax "for the bar," and regretted it b/c: A) fed tax sucks, esp 3L year; and B) the tax part f the bar is ridiclously easy.

I second #62. For Con Law in general, be sure to contribute your viewpoints on all issues. It's really more than a law school class -- it's a forum for the brightest 20-somethings of our generation to really come to grips with the most important issues of our day. Tips:

-- if you have an interesting perspective on an issue, be sure to preface your comment with "As a [blank], I feel..." so the room knows to pay attention.

-- try to include at least one wrenching personal anecdote a week.

-- remember, it really doesn't matter if you read the assignment or not, just as long as you have something to say! You're there to learn AND share!

Prepare for a terrible three years. Followed by many more of drudgery and toil.

"You can't all be real military men; we don't need that many and most of the volunteers aren't number-one soldier material anyhow...[W]e've had to think up a whole list of dirty, nasty, dangerous jobs that will...at the very least make them remember for the rest of their lives that their citizenship is valuable to them because they've paid a high price for it."

- Fleet Sgt. Ho, attempting to dissuade Johnny Rico from enrolling.

Because Kash is awsome I will overlook the fact that 1L's don't pick classes.

Seriuosly though, get teh Glannon guide and some good outlines, thats about it.

Extracurriculars are really important. Law firms love seeing them on your resume and it will definitely help you get a job. Some good extracurriculars to get involved with are P.A.D. (Pi Alpha Delta), Student Government Association, Barristers Ball Planning Committee, local Bar Association, and the law school newspaper.

Quit now!

66 - The Restatements have annotations that deal with different facts. You could probably ace the exam if you mastered their discussions of different facts and mimicked the courts' reasoning.

NEVER forget that the case method is inefficient b.s. that doesn't have anything to do with your law school exams. Stay as far away from the casebook as possible.

The key is on the first day either kick someone's ass, or become someone's bitch...

OUTLINES ARE USELESS. There. I said it. Totally useless. You either understand the concepts and cases and can do some improvised analysis of what happens when a computer manufacturer sends a lemon to a customer or you can't.

Law school exams are a lot like rapping. Having a rhyme dictionary is not helpful. You just gotta know how to bust a rhyme.

If you are at a school not in the T14, or at least a school that hires well in your region (and you want to stay in your region), be prepared for a shit job when you graduate unless you are willing to put in the time it takes finish in the top 5-10% of your class. Maybe $120K in law school debt does not sound so bad when you are making $160K/year, but the vast majority of students at non-T14 schools are not making close to $160K straight out of law school.

Eat right and take advantage of the athletic facilities. The gym and yoga classes will never be this cheap again in your life.

Do you know a lawyer? It's not what you know, it's who you know...

Sit in the back row in class. Don't join a study group. Write down every word the prof. says, verbatim, and make that your first study guide.

i disagree with 70, extracurricular activities are pretty worthless- what matters is top grades and a journal or moot court.

46 -- You simultaneously suggest that 1Ls relax, smoke pot AND wear nicotine patches for four weeks every semester -- Following your advice virtually guarantees erratic behavior and twitchy, nail biting, sweaty students.

You are one hard-core, Type-A, psychopath -- Well played.

75 - way to state the obvious. and stop the GULC trolling. anything beneath NYU, Chicago, and Columbia doesn't place that well besides the top half of the class.

70 = someone who had shitty grades and couldn't get on Law Review so filled his/her resume with garbage activities. Trust me, they don't mean shit to employers - all that matters are Grades and Law Review!

By the way, don't participate in class unless you are called on. You will find, without a shadow of a doubt, that those who know it the least know it the loudest.

1-Don't make direct eye contact with the prof.

2-Keep your hand down. No one really wants to hear what you have to say about the true meaning of footnote 3. As a former appellate clerk, I can tell you that most appellate judges don't possess a motiviation to insert hidden messages or meanings in their opinions.

3-When called upon, turn the situation around and use leading questions with the prof to establish the point you want to make. He or she has likely never actually practiced law and will be uncomfortable with your technique. That should keep them at bay from calling upon you later in the semester. It also entertains your fellow classmates - and that's what's most important.

4-Don't use student loan money to make investments in the securities markets with the thinking that you can get a better rate of return than the interest on the loan that you will one day repay.

5-Go home when class is over. Don't be that guy who lives in the lobby or library. No one is really that impressed with your dedication to spending every waking moment at school.

6-Keep your shoes on in the library. Can't stand people who wallk around there like it's their living room.

7-Don't be a name dropper. No one cares you worked for Congressman so-and-so as a legislative aide.

8-Keep your politics and religion to yourself, especially in class. Don't be the ideological fanatic.

9-Keep in mind that law school is a trade school, not graduate school. In the real world, there are few esoteric conversations among lawyers. Your thoughtful insights about World Wide Volkwagen and the true extent of personal jurisdiction are a waste of everyone's time, including yours.

10. Lay off the Starbuck's. You're going to wish you had all those $4 back when you're repaying your loans.

11. Don't get engaged during your IL year. Don't plan on getting married then either - or the week after spring exams. Also, try not to impregnate anyone, which would result in the birth of a child during spring semester. All of these things have a way of wrecking concentration/grades.

12. Participate in the writing competition for the journals.

Hey I had a rolly-bag. You mean it wasn't cool.

All I can say is carrying 50 pounds off one's shoulder may look cool, but having one hand that hangs down to your knee and another that reaches your waist looks f-cking weird.

79, 70 here.

I disagree. Holding an officer position in P.A.D. is way more important than being on a journal. P.A.D. is a national fraternal organization of law students. What better way to make some important life long contacts and gain real life experience than by joining P.A.D.? Extracurriculars are the golden ticket.

85 -- you and all other members of P.A.D. are f-cking tools, unfit to wipe my ass.

I pray you are being sarcastic for the sake of all the 1Ls who may be reading this.

Hey No. 88, take your own advice about name dropping (Your rule #7). No one care you were a "former appellate clerk" (Your rule #2). And be honest with the blog, you were a FILE clerk for a former appellate clerk ...

DON'T WORRY ABOUT BEING a D-BAG. Stop listening to those who want to ostracize you from the social groups because you have a rolly-bag, listen to Outkast at maximum volume in the library, and flirt with all the girls.

STOP thinking about what other people think. They're wrong. This is your life. This is your stint in professional school, not theirs. You can listen to thousands of smart people talk about how they made Law Review, but that's the extent of it. People are jerks in LS because they're stressed; their opinions means jack.

Law school is great--you can go to a TTT, plagiarize stuff there, graduate at the bottom of your class, and go on Meet the Press and say this:

"I’ll tell you why I criticized the Supreme Court. They upheld the ban, and then they engaged in what we lawyers call dicta that is frightening. You had an intellectually dishonest rationale for an honest justification for upholding the ban, and that was this: They went further, and then they, in the language associated with the decision said, by the way, they blurred whether there is the first trimester and third trimester in how much—I know this is going to sound arcane to the listeners—but whether or not they blurred the distinction between the government’s role in being involved in the first day and the ninth month. They blurred the role in terms of whether or not there is—they became paternalistic, talking about the court could consider the impact on the mother and keeping her from making a mistake. This is all code for saying, “Here we come to undo Roe v. Wade.” And it went on to say, by the way, that the life of the mother was, in fact, permissible exception, and it went on to say that even—that any woman could challenge, even if her health is at risk, could come back to the court to challenge that. So the bottom line here is, what they did is not so much the decision, the actual outcome of the decision, it’s what attended the decision that portends for a real hard move on the court to undo the right of privacy. That’s what I’m criticizing about the court’s decision."

and still have people thinking you have gravitas.

lol @ maxi-P.A.D. DTP 4 Lyfe.

Don't pay attention to all the d-bag gunners who pretend to know everything and constantly discuss their monster outlines. They're usually filling out the bottom half after the first year. Find what works for you and stick to that. I've actually found class to be quite helpful as it seems most my professors tested pretty much exactly what they covered in class (which often ruled out a lot of the crap you read in the first place).

Hey No. 83, take your own advice about name dropping (Your rule #7). No one care you were a "former appellate clerk" (Your rule #2). And be honest with the blog, you were a FILE clerk for a former appellate clerk ...

lol @ maxi-P.A.D. DTP 4 Lyfe.

Drop out. Go to MBA school.

85, no I'm being completely serious. I got cut by all the frats in college and then only got into a T4 school, so I was feeling pretty down about my life. But P.A.D. changed all that. Now I'm a member of the greek system! I wear my P.A.D. t-shirt and go back to my undergrad campus all the time. It's awesome to be greek now. Also, remember to wear your P.A.D. pin on interviews. It's a great conversation starter and way to bond with your interviewer who was probably in P.A.D. too.

All the student associations are unimportant. Get on a Journal, even a secondary one and if you feel passionate about some other student organization join it.
Speak in class only if what you have to say is relevant. it may be an interesting tidbit to you but the rest of the class does not care. Also do not discuss your study abroad experience, noone cares.
If invited to any firm sponsored event, attend, mingle, don't say anything stupid.

All the student associations are unimportant. Get on a Journal, even a secondary one and if you feel passionate about some other student organization join it.
Speak in class only if what you have to say is relevant. it may be an interesting tidbit to you but the rest of the class does not care. Also do not discuss your study abroad experience, noone cares.
If invited to any firm sponsored event, attend, mingle, don't say anything stupid.

All the student associations are unimportant. Get on a Journal, even a secondary one and if you feel passionate about some other student organization join it.
Speak in class only if what you have to say is relevant. it may be an interesting tidbit to you but the rest of the class does not care. Also do not discuss your study abroad experience, noone cares.
If invited to any firm sponsored event, attend, mingle, don't say anything stupid.

All the student associations are unimportant. Get on a Journal, even a secondary one and if you feel passionate about some other student organization join it.
Speak in class only if what you have to say is relevant. it may be an interesting tidbit to you but the rest of the class does not care. Also do not discuss your study abroad experience, noone cares.
If invited to any firm sponsored event, attend, mingle, don't say anything stupid.

Why are comments being deleted or removed...?

Censorship on a law blog. For shame.

Honestly, if you don't go to a Top 20 law school, you should drop out.

I went to Loyola Law School, Los Angeles and graduated in the top 20% of my class. Worthless. Literally worthless. And don't listen to the people who tell you that Loyola provides a "practical education." That's code for, "this school is not respected by larger law firms and, therefore, those firms will not offer you employment."

1. Read all of the assigned reading. You may have to read cases more than once. Briefing your cases is good, but taking notes heavily in the margins is often sufficient.

2. Go to all of your classes.

3. Take notes by hand. Many (not all, but many) students screw around too much on the Internet. It's best to think about what your professor is talking about, and take notes on what's important.

4. Don't worry about outlines--commercial or otherwise. Make your own.

I did steps one through four. I graduated at the top of my class. I was on Law Review. I earned a federal district-court clerkship.

There's no substitute for hard work.

102 - Reading cases is worthless. You spent hours learning how to extract rules and understand legal reasoning in a way that could have been explained in a few days.

82,

Yes, you are correct. You also forgot to add "attends a Tier 4 school and had graduated in the bottom half".

But at least I understand sarcasm and you can never take that away from me.

Now leave me alone because I have to go find a date for barristers ball. The organizer of the ball cannot show up unescorted.

101 is right.

<Top 20 = insurance defense out of law school, starting pay $55,000.00 a year. Actually, you will learn a lot, but about state civil procedure and bullshit arguments about the state rules of evidence. You will also become close and familiar with the underbelly of society.

Drop out now and go volunteer at a homeless shelter for two years. You will have a better sense of satisfaction, not all of the debt, and will be motivated to make something of your life.

73 is right. Also, don't ever drop the soap in the shower.

If you're going to a top-tier school, don't worry about extracurriculars. Don't worry all that much about grades.

If you're not going to a top-tier school, worry about both.

But please, if you have a question about the material, ask in class. Don't be among the suck-ups who rush the professor at the podium at the end of class so they can be the only ones to benefit from knowledge. It may make you feel weird to ask a question in class, but it looks even worse to be a kiss-ass than a gunner.

Try to get into the joint JD/MBA program. Worth the extra money and time. A JD by itself leads nowhere but to being a lawyer. You'll be incredibly frustrated on the other side if you went to law school for any other reason than that.

"I may go to a shitty school, but I'll be in the top 10% because I KILLED IT in college!!!!"

For all those that have thought the foregoing, there is a 98% chance you will not be in the top 10%. The math works. Trust me.

Get out now.

81 -- OK, point taken, doesn't everyone graduate in the top 50% of their class?

102 is absolutely right.

"I may go to a shitty school, but I know the V5 firm I want to work for hired someone from my school, so it could happen to me too. Right? Anyone? School rank isn't that important? I mean, there are Tier 4 grads at top firms. Anyone?????........

Everyone suggesting Glannon and Chemerinsky is exactly right - huge helps first year.

If you don't make Law Review, do another journal or moot court as a 2L and be sure to have some "other activity" you enjoy outside of class as a go to answer during OCIs. If you don't make Law Review you should have a good reason or be a really interesting person.

It's easy to procrastinate by doing too much homework. Don't read all the notes after cases. Put down your notes once in awhile and just think. It can help the readings make more sense as a whole if you stop to think about them.

73--great reference

Especially refrain from sleeping with people in law school if you are not well endowed. Girls WILL tell everyone. And then forever your future work colleagues will know you as pencil dick.

112, you're right, tier 4 grads do get into top firms. However, the odds are stacked against you. To land a V5 job after attending a tier 4 you would essentially have to be number 1 in your class from a law school in one of the cities that firm practices in. Even if you are number 1 you still won't get wachtel or cravath to pay attention.

Seriously, if you are planning on going to a tier 4 school you should truly ask yourself what you want out of law school. If you find the only compelling answer to be "work for biglaw" you might be in for a long and hard road before you reach your goal.

I'll do what I can to help y'all. But, the game's out there, and it's play or get played. That simple.

Take as many practice exams as you can.

Also, don't be afraid to drink during finals while studying. It's a great stress reliever and will help prepare you to get in a few extra billable hours after happy hour. Plus, when you summer at a firm you'll be able to go round for round with the partners (most lawyers are alcoholics) but will avoid stupid decisions like making out with someone of the same sex or stealing a car.

Some of this repeats previous comments, but it is my two cents...

1. Do not be a gunner - everyone will hate you, including the professors.

2. Avoid gunners like the plague - everyone will hate you by association, including the professors.

3. Fall 1L grades are the most critical of your law school career, as others have noted above. Those are the grades used for Spring 1L OCI that get you the summer job that can turn into a good career. If you tank Fall 1L, you are fighting an uphill battle.

4. Write on to journal if you are not asked to join. All other extracurriculars are 100% irrelevant in the eyes of employers.

5. If you do not get onto journal, take moot court, rock the class, and get on the national team. It is an inadequate substitute for journal, but better than nothing.

6. Do not get a backpack with wheels and arrive late to class and sit anywhere but the end of the row - everyone will hate you, including the professors.

7. Do not ask stupid questions. A question is stupid if it is not 100% on point or asked with less than five minutes before class ends. If you ask stupid questions - everyone will hate you, including the professors.

8. Learn the subject as it will be tested. Study old tests and maybe old outlines from that professor and subject. Talk to the professor outside of class if necessary. You will learn the REAL law and how to pass the bar in a one month nightmare known as BARBRI after you graudate.

9. The best outline is the one you write yourself. By writing it, the exercise helps you commit it to memory. Feel free to compare it to other outlines, but use your own.

10. Go out, drink, have some fun or you will get an ulcer.

11. Don't talk about class rank. No one wants to know where you are and very few want to divulge where they are.

12. Come to grips with the fact that, as a 1L, or even as a 3L, you don't know sh*t about the law. Don't try to act or talk like a lawyer because you are not a lawyer and you will appear absurd and stupid. Plus, everyone will hate you, including the professors.

13. Don't listen to the PAD or DTP guy telling you about the career connections - he is a liar. Join because you want to go to some parties and happy hours, which is all those legal fraternities are good for.

14. Begin networking in the legal and business community immediately. Connections get jobs where grades cannot.

15. If you can sit for it, take and pass the patent bar early, but don't let it adversely impact your grades.

if someone makes a semi-political point in class or is wrong about something, don't be a bitch and loudly sigh or hiss or nudge the guy next to you and whisper your contempt. Raise your hand and make the counterpoint. Everyone will thank you. Especially the fellow who otherwise would have been nudged.

DO NOT attend Con Law the day something controversial is being discussed, especially abortion. The zealots on both sides of the argument have been chomping at the bit to talk about it. Class will be a miserable experience, and you will cringe and writhe in your seat the whole time. Go bowling and have a beer and come back when the next class starts later that day.

If your prof asks for your thoughts about a particular footnote in an opinion being reviewed in class, respond that you don't read footnotes to opinions as a rule and then try to control yourself while the prof spends the next 10 minutes explaining the importance of reading all parts of a judicial opinion and attacking you for having a fundamental misunderstaning of how to interpret the law.

On the first day, find the biggest, scariest guy there and beat the shit out of him. That way no one will fuck with you.

Unless you get on THE Law review, dont bother with a secondary journal unless it focuses on exactly the thing you want to do for the rest of your life.

Better to put that time into getting lots of A's 2nd and 3rd year, which is WAY easier than doing it first year.

A's 1L year are the best obviously, but A's from other years really, really help you also.

102: i would recommend what i did. use your laptop to take notes, but DO NOT connect to the internet during class. are schools wireless now? back in my day, you just didn't plug that cord in. easy.

121: second and add the same re: rape in crim law class. (although, it is useful knowledge to know what guy is going to pipe up and say "but here, they were married, so . . ." shudder. further tip: do NOT be That Guy.)

122 - I do litigation and we quote footnotes all the time. Some of the best stuff is in there, and on Lexis it really just looks like a regular part ofthe opinion.

124: I don't agree. You get on to a journal in time for OCI 2L year. And firms looooove seeing that you're on a journal.

If you are not going to a Top 20 law school the chances of you making top salary in any given market upon graduation are really, really, really, really, really remote. Like winning the lottery remote.

67% of the class will not be in the top third, and 90% won't be in the top 10%. And the thing you really need to understand is that even if you study 24/7 and do meticulous outlines and read the extra material and take hundreds of practice exams and ask questions during and after class and get to know the professors participate in study groups and cut off your left arm and sacrifice it to the law school gods, enough other people are to be doing the same thing that you still probably won't make it into the top 10%, and that means you still won't be making top salary when you graduate.

You also need to understand that if you don't make it into the elite biglaw-eligible class of law school graduates, you are likely never going to be able to join them somewhere down the road. The chances of that are even smaller than the chances of you getting into the top 10%. You can prove yourself to be a litigation prodigy or a transactional genius and those firms will still judge you by your law school transcript. Period. You can beat those firms in litigation or steal their clients by your work and they will still not hire you because of your law school grades. It's a fraternity you only get one chance to join, and realistically that chance is your first semester of law school. Miss that opportunity and it's pretty much over.

So what I'm saying is that if you're going to law school to make big money your chances are slim, the window is small, and it's not altogether in your control as to the outcome. Don't base your ideal of law school or career success on that one goal because chances are overwhelming that you're going to be disappointed.

127 - Eh, gotta disagree. I knew several people who were on "other" hournals who really regretted it and were convinced firms didn't care at all.

I, on the other hand, used 2L year to pull myself up by like 20-25% in the class ranking, which helps enormously.

Everything 128 said is 100% accurate.

-not 128 (I promise)

i have the tests going back to 1971, while i plan reading them all what should i aim for in taking them?

also when should I start? taking one now would be a waste of time but what about 2 week of Oct?

/not gunner
//school w/o class rank
///not yale or cal
///just want to make the most of my time here on my parents money.

1) Get good grades; or alternatively

2) Get decent grades and be very attractive (and preferably female)

Do not waste your time briefing cases. They tell you it's a must - they lie. I did it the first semester and nearly died of sleep-deprivation. And although my grades were not horrible, my life was. In fact, my grades went up after I stopped briefing and focused more on the "big picture."

And there are certain areas of the law you can learn most efficiently from Nutshells and other supplements - contracts, torts, property. Anything that hasn't changed in the last 200 years is much more easily learned from something other than your casebook.

Con law is different - you have to read the cases, muse about who's on the court, why they were on which side in that case v. this case. Some people love that. I find it kind of annoying.

I am attending UPEN State in Wilmington. Any hope to work S&C?

I went to a Tier 4 school and am currently working in Biglaw (not NYC). Here how it breaks down roughly every year for biglaw jobs from my school.

1. You only get an interview if you are in the top 5% of the class.
2. Then you have to interview exceptionally well.
3. In order to get such a job you must be willing to interview everywhere and shotgun resumes to all the firms that don't recruit at your school (in and out of the area), there will be many.

I only recieved 45 rejections and 4 acceptances out of 52 interviews ( the other three firms have yet to respond).

The top 5% was a total of 13 students, and 4 of us got jobs. Like I said earlier this is about average for our school.

Just letting you Tier 4 students know there is still hope.

I think 128's comment was a bit harsh but on point. The reality is that even at TTT schools there are people like myself who got waitlisted at top schools and ended up taking the money at a TTT (which was a mistake). In my opinion at a TTT 75% of the student body are intellectually out-gunned from the beginning and have no real shot to make the top 10%.

Honestly though, if you are reading ATL as a 1L and have read this far down in the comments there's a pretty good chance you have the smarts and drive to make it. The advice in this thread has been pretty solid and there are certainly people who come to my TTT with low LSAT scores and make it into Big Law. As 128 said, the odds are against you, but fuck the odds.

If you're at U of Iowa for law school, drop out now.

1. Study like mad your 1L year. Study like mad the first semester of 2L year. Your grades do not matter after that.

2. Don't take on any demanding extracurriculars your 1L year, or the first semester of 2L year. Something to put on a resume, sure, but nothing too terribly intense or it will wreck your grades.

3. Engage in some kind of stress-relieving activity on a regular basis.

4. Make your own outline, even if you have someone else's outline. The process of making it is what's important.

5. Do not surf the Internet in class. Don't miss class. Take very detailed notes. This is what will be on the exam.

138 = the whole truth. All of it.

And if you are a 1L reading this comment, pay attention to number 3 of 138's comments.

masturbate whenever you feel the urge to do so

Listless comments are shit. If you find yourself agreeing with them, realize that you are going to be one of the legion of lawyers who either: a. hates his job, or, b. has a mid-life crisis and runs of to Swaziland to make rugs.

The list pretty much embodies the mindset that besets far too many people in legal education - a mindset that translates into shitty quality of life surveys and dissatisfaction.

Look, if you are a student and your idea of a 'successful' year is:

- figuring out how to avoid being called on by skipping class
- making test performance the lodestar of your legal education
- 'getting by' in class prep without reading the actual case
- 'gaming' your registration to associate with 'easy' classes and professors

then just drop out of the fucking law school. If you're going to take that much time to avoid the experience, then you are probably in the wrong fucking profession. No amount of money - no, not even $200k per year as a 20-something - is going to drown out that deep down dissatisfaction.

Besides which, we have too many fucking lawyers as it is. So if you find yourself nodding your head as you read through listless, just leave. Cancel the check, sell the books you already purchased, and just leave. 10 years from now, you'll be thankful you did.

138 - why do the grades from your first semester 2L year matter?

High grades in fall 2L allow for more normal grades in spring without endangering offer.

Really atrocious grades in fall 2L can cost you summer associate position if the firm finds out (rare, but it can happen), and they will cost you a shot at a permanent offer if your GPA falls through the floor, as it were and you are no longer the same candidate they interviewed.

Having three semesters of high grades makes significant degredation from spring of 2L virtually impossible so long as you show up. Spring 2L grades also won't generally be posted until you are well into your summer associate position.

C's or worse because you spent the fall getting wrecked on callback trips can cause problems.

138 - The problem is that "studying like mad" isn't equivalent to studying well. Often, the mad studiers are clueless flailers for legal lifeboats, and their GPA reflects that, while the "9-5" law students do their work effectively, reach maximum productivity, and go home.

Treat law school like a full-time job and you'll do fine. There's no reason to treat it like preparation for a match a la Rocky.

If there's a journal at your school that focuses on the type of law you want to practice (e.g. banking, corporate, IP, etc), do that journal. Save yourself the hell that is Law Review, yet still have the benefits of saying your writing for a journal in your interest area.

Those saying you must do Law Review are the same idiots that did it themselves and suffered. They must justify to themselves why they made their life hell. Don't buy it. A less demanding journal will get the job done.

Our we calling tiers in 25 school increments or 50 school increments? Are their 8 tiers or 4?

Is Cardozo a tier three toilet or a tier two toilet?Enquiring minds want to know.

Remember kiddies, if you want biglaw, everything you do will be in preparation for making your resume more attractive, and your interviews more interesting.

So, given that, make sure you are near the top of your class, on a journal, and being on moot court doesn't hurt either.

There are multiple ways to achieve all this, obviously, but here is one way: Go to all of your classes, sit in the front and write down what your professor tells you, don't use commercial outlines, make your own outlines, do all of the practice exams your professor makes available, take the journal writing competition very seriously, take legal writing classes seriously, get on moot court, do extracurriculars so that you have something more to talk about when people want to know who you are.

If you don't have corporate experience, fall in love with your Contracts class (and take Corporations ASAP). Bankruptcy is hot, too, so sign up for that Fall 2L as well. This will give you a "this is why I want to work at your firm" talking point.

Oh, and once you make your journal, pick a topic that you can talk about without putting people to sleep.

And somewhere in there, find time to actually make friends and have some drinks. Interviewers want to find people who fit in. If you aren't a natural socializer, start practicing now.

3L here (with a job secured in my desired market--so don't take these comments as a bitter rant).

If you are the type person who likes to talk, read, debate, and not do much else, then the law is for you. Forget about "I want to change the world," or "I want to fuck with the POlice," or "I want to make the big bucks." Talking-reader-debaters-and-not-much-elsers: these are the only people who will find satisfaction as lawyers.

If you (this is me) are the kind of person craves action--e.g., sports, working with your hands, traveling, creating something--then you will not be satisfied in the legal profession. Furthermore, your classmates will bore you to tears. The reality is you will only practice law for about as long as you spent in law school.

Those of you in this group, you have two options: quit now (recommended). Or, if you decide to stick it out, yes get good grades and yes try and land a job during you second summer, but mostly use your three years to develop your interests outside of law. I've used my 2+ years to work on my golf and tennis game, learn Japanese, build furniture, run marathons, and learn how to develop websites.

Good luck 1L class. Sucks to be you!

146 -The tiers look like this:

HYS
Schools where students interview firms
Schools with large OCI's wher firms interview students (T25)
Your state school
Everything else

wake up early. you'll see more daylight and have time for your friends and family during the hours most people socialize.

Also - spend some time on finding a paying job for your 1L summer. That extra $20-30k makes a substantial difference in your lifestyle while in school and your debt load afterwards.

Based on my impression of this recruiting season so far, I wouldn't put a great deal of effort into finding a big firm 1L summer job (the only place where you are going to make anywhere near $20-$30K).

Solid credential 2L's, 3L's who will have licenses and judicial clerks are having a hard time finding work. I really doubt that firms are going to go out of their way to throw cash at 1L's in Summer 2009.

Unless you are talking about joining the ranks of Wachtell or Cravath, legal skill and business origination dictates who gets to enter the Biglaw fraternity after you are out of school for awhile. Make no mistake, this is a business, and the almighty dollar rules at the end of the day.

Do the best you can 1L fall. On Christmas break, do some very serious career planning. Pick a practice area, and gear your job search toward that area. Do unpaid work 1L summer in that area if you can't find a paying gig. Do well spring semester as well. Take the writing classes very seriously.

115, it sounds like you are talking from experience

Don't listen to anyone who says you can't get to biglaw outside of the top 20 law schools, even if you're not top 10% (or even 20%) of your class. If you lose the OCI sweepstakes, talk to recruiters and ask what specializations biglaw is currently in dire need of (IP, hedge fund/PE work, and bankruptcy are 3 off the top of my head), then gain specialization in a unique area of the law that you can market to big law in a year or so. So long as you don't wait more than 2 years to jump, there will always be open doors if you have a needed skill set, particularly when the economy starts its uptick and biglaw is understaffed.

Simple tips for 1Ls:

1. Learn the law and important facts of the cases you read. Do NOT try to memorize cases and do not worry about learning all the facts of the cases. So many people in my 1L class made that mistake: they could tell you the year that case was decided where the two hunters each shot the guy (y'all know the one I'm talking about) but they sucked at articulating the law.

2. If someone asks you for an outline or wants to ask you a question, help them. You learn by teaching, and the guy whose ass you save with an outline today may be the guy who consents to you getting out of default 10 years later. Lawyers have long memories; I remember every single person who helped me and every single person who refused or was otherwise an asshole.

3. If you are not the dumbest or the almost dumbest person in your study group, it's probably not doing you a lot of good. Consider going solo. But honor any pre-made outline commitments.

4. Don't have sex with classmates until your second year.

5. Exercise a lot. It will help you deal with stress and it will keep you from feeling depressed when something goes wrong (which it inevitably will).

6. The Examples and Explanations series is great for exam preparation. Gilberts are great for packing law into your head.

7. Know the LAW. Professors will tell you that knowing hornbook law isn't all that important. They are lying. Know every little rule there is and try to apply as many of them as you can to the facts of the exam.

8. Presume that every single fact in an exam question matters. Presume that every single fact in an exam question has some legal significance. Mention every single fact in your analysis.

9. Everybody graduates and everybody gets a job, so chill.

10. If you don't make biglaw, don't worry. You now have little chance of committing suicide, getting divorced, having major depression, and exposing yourself to women on the street after a breakdown.

I have worked at 3 Big Law firms and been a partner at 2. I was Editor in Chief of my review and in the top 15% of my class in a top 20 school. I have run associate and lateral recruiting efforts. This is what I have seen:

It is true that grades are key. Some people get good ones first semester. They are fortunate. Others figure out the game second semester. They too are fortunate. If you are not in this camp, give serious thought to whether you want to continue spending money to get an education that is not apt to land you a job that will allow you to pay your loans in a reasonable period of time.

Grades matter even for government jobs. If you want to be a Manhattan DA or work for Justice, you need Big Law grades, especially if you don't have political connections.

Some people go from the middle of the 1L class to honors in 2 and 3L years. If you love the law and know it is for you but had bad 1L grades for whatever reason, you need to double commit to grades. I had a friend that was at about the 50% mark in my class that ended up in the top 10% and then got a job with Covington and then Wilmer before going in house. You can still get a big law job, but the path is much harder.

Don't delude yourself about your abilities. If you hate law school or really struggle with the course load, you might be happier and better off financially if you face this reality and cut your losses.

If you do great in your 1L year you have a leg up, but don't let your grades drop as a 2L because you won't know until AFTER that year if you will need to look for work because you had a bad 2L summer associate experience. So your 2L grades could matter. Hedge your bets. This can be hard first semester 2L because of interviewing, but as soon as you have a summer job lined up, focus on salvaging your first semester and do great second semester.

Many firms look at grades for all three years when you lateral. For example, Gibson Dunn has a GPA requirement even for partners. Sure, it is not a deal breaker if you have a good book, but bad grades can still hurt you. Other firms want you to be in at least the top half/third of your class and will focus on C and Ds on any transcript no matter the year. I interviewed a great transactional candidate from a graet firm. He had mostly As, but 2 Cs as a 1L and a D and C during his 3L year. Several people could not get over these grades, he did not explain them very well and he did not get an offer. Is this fair or rationale? Maybe not. But you want to avoid giving firms a reason to take a pass on you so work for As and Bs.

You have to find a means for success that works for you. Some people need to make their own outlines to learn, others can memorize other people's materials. You will be tempted to read/buy every hornbook, commercial outline, flashcard and other tools on the market. But I found that that created information overload for me. I started to panic because I could not get thru it all. So if something is not working for you, don't think that that means you are doomed. Just try something else.

You will be shocked at who does well. Every class has their Scalia -- the briliant person who just gets it. If that is not you, just admire that person because they are rare. Other people will act all smart and confident. You will be certain that they will be at the top. But many of these people are blowhards and will be near the bottom. Be entertained by them and don't let them get you down. In my class, the people that generally did well were the people who were sure and steady in their efforts. They stayed true to who they were and played to their strengths without getting rattled by their weaknesses.

1L year is like first year Spanish. You need to learn the lingo. Look up words you don't understand.

What worked for me was treating law school like a job. I got there at 8:00 a.m., went to class, went to the library to study, left around 6 for dinner, did some light review and relaxed in the evening. I got a good night sleep most nights, went to the gym a few days a week and saw at least one movie a week at a theater. As finals neared, I pushed more, but not that much more because I was preparing everyday. I needed to do it this way because I could not cram. This method also worked for me because I was not all that interest in socializing late at night and then needing to sleep late in the morning. I would cut loose a bit on Friday nights, but I still was in bed by midnight and at the library by 9:30 on Saturday. Saturday night and Sunday, I relaxed. This was enough to keep me balanced and sane.

Law school is about hard work. If you invest, you will likely be fine. It can be hell, but it is only for a few months at a time. Push through and make sacrafices so that you have few regrets at the end.

I loved law school. It was a great experience and I am really glad I did it.

156,

Haha, I love the whole "If you aren't doing great you should cut your losses."

Bullshit. I haven't found that the people in the top of my class are any happier or better off than the people at the bottom.

This thread is so depressing. :(

I never thought that if I didn't do well as a 1L, my legal career would be over.

It makes me want to crawl into bed and ignore everything the professor ever said about Palsgref. No matter how hard you study, and how smart you are, you're being arbitrarily graded by some old dude who doesn't understand the brutal job market.

Can anyone say something nice and cheer me up?

157, if you read what I said, I was careful to say that you need to evaluate for yourself if it is worth the investment. I have no idea where you went to school or where you work, but my experience suggests that you increase the odds of being better off the better you do. This is not to say you will be happy. If you are at the top of your class and hate it, then that person might want to stop too. My sole point is that the lower you are in your class, the more obsticles you face.

Case in point, none of my firms have looked at candidates with grades under the top third. All had a hard cut no matter the school. So sure, you can be at the bottom, but there is a risk to doing so like having a smaller job pool. If money is not a problem for you, then maybe you can afford the debt. If you already have $150000 from undergrad, go right ahead and run up another $100000 if you want. But that might be throwing money away.

156 here. You can take or leave whatever I say. I love my job, have time for friends, family and community, have a house and beach house, make a really comfortable living, spead more time at Four Seasons than Four Points hotels, and enjoy my hobbies like golf and sailing. Who knows if my point of view is right, but it worked for me.

Think long and hard about what you want out of the law. If it is primarily money, drop out, work for a while and start a business. You'll work just as hard, maybe harder, but you'll have something tangible if you are successful. It is very difficult to sell a law practice at a profit. You can't take it public either. So the exit strategies suck. The only thing Biglaw does is provide steady (but heavily taxed) cash compensation. And in this day in age, even that's no sure thing anymore (see e.g. all threads detailing layoffs)

Biglaw pays fairly well (relatively speaking), but its a grueling life to which you get handcuffed, first with the debt load and then by the gold. Minimum of 60-70 hours a week regularly. More when a deal/case ramps up. It may not sound like much starting out, but try doing that with a young family. Even if you like your work and clients, it sucks to be missing your kids grow up. Caveat emptor.

161's point is Money is like the sirens. It can really throw you off couse.

158--that the legal profession is collapsing cannot be denied anymore even by the graduates of Ivy law schools who give up their twenties and thirties for "biglaw".

But cheer up--you are now aware of how bad it is and can begin to plan your exit. You are a very smart person and will do well in a profession or business that protects its members and is not looked on in utter disdain by society.

Don't let jackasses tell you it matters what school you got your JD from or what grades you got. The only thing that will determine your success in the law is your book of business. Mechanics are a dime a dozen.

The number of lawyers making partner at the seatshops based on legal perfornance is about 10%. Partners and compensation is based on portable books of business.

Get out while you can.

Endofesq.com

158 -- Don't be depressed. Just do the best you can to play the game.

158,

Here's something that should make you feel better. You misspelled Palsgraf.

158 -

All of the talk about "drop out if no biglaw" is referring to the massive student loans people normally run up in law school - law school tuition + time commitment + ABA prohibition on job + cost of living = $150K required.

Make no mistake; it is about as pleasant as you think to have a non-collateralized, undischargable mortgage hanging over your head if you don't make enough to justify carrying that sort of mortgage in the first place. If you have a salary of $50K, would you consider taking out a $200K mortgage on a house right away? I hope not.

If money isn't a concern for you, then starting salary does not matter. If you are good and network, and avoid total dead-end untouchable work like no-fault insurance defense, your salary will go up. It's also possible to get starting salaries in the high-five/low-six figure range, but you have to network for these because most of them are not announced, nor will Career Services know how to find them.

If the only reason you want to be a lawyer is the perceived financial power of it, and you don't get good grades (or, like a lot of kids this year, you get good grades but the economy stinks and no one wants summer associates or associates), and you do have debt issues, you should re-evaluate.

It's foolish not to. This is a very big financial headache.

166,

Honestly, I am surprised to see the debt that people claim to have after undergrad and law school.

If you were not intelligent enough to get through undergrad with little debt (i.e. you were too dumb to get scholarships) you really shouldn't be going to law school anyway.

167, There are plenty of people (asians and caucasions) that don't qualify for special scholarships and who come from middle class families that make too much for their kid to get aid and too little to pay tuition for them. Maybe they get money from schools like Marquette but they also get in with little/no free money at Princeton. What would you choose?

Undergrad debt is not (generally) a problem, although people who go to the most prestigous private school they can over the ones where they got scholorships or their state university are kidding themselves.

What matters is your GPA and LSAT. If you are really high-end law material, your GPA should be great wherever you go. Ivy over latin honors at State U is not a wise financial decision.

Law school, otoh, is going to cost serious money. It's much harder to get a scholorship (at least to a good school), it costs more, and it is such a time sink that working (as much as you can) to defray costs isn't really an option as a full-time student. It's also rare for families to have saved up money for the kid to go to graduate school on top of college. Usually it's just college.

The only way you are getting out of law school with little debt is (a) state school and biglaw summer job(s); (b) full ride; (c) significant ride + biglaw summer job; (d) wealthy family/trust fund, law school paid for in cash.

168,

I'm as white as Obama's good half, came from a family with plenty of money, and had no problems getting a full scholarship to undergrad.

169,

I agree with your four options to avoiding debt. I certainly fit into one of those categories. People who don't should be working at Wal-Mart.

156 is right. Grades matter. Immensely. Yes, there are a lot of "law school is a mistake" comments out there. And it's true, the law is not for everyone. Indeed, law school is a pretty ugly place if you are a 3L without a job, or a recent grad who is struggling to pay off $150K in loans with a $50K paycheck. Whatever, you're a 1L now, so that means you already made the decision to come to law school. So who cares what others think of their experience? The important part is to make the most of your own. And whether you want to go into biglaw, government, or public interest, you should know that these markets are extremely competitive, with the best jobs going to those with the best grades.

As far as law school success is concerned, getting good grades really means getting into the top of your class. Now, with a few minor exceptions (you'll figure out who these people are soon enough), the admissions policies at your school pretty much guarantee that you and your classmates are on equal footing (you all got roughly the same LSAT score). So don't worry about not being smart enough to get in the top 10%, 20% or whatever it is you are shooting for. Other commentators hit it on the nail: one of the great ironies of law school is that those students who always seem to have the right answer in the classroom never seem to deliver it around exam time. So don't worry about keeping up with them. These gunners just don't grasp the concept of blind-grading, and are shocked when grades come out.

In the meantime, you need to figure out how to get the best grades. You got into law school, so you already know how to study. Just recognize your strengths and weaknesses in this area and be efficient about it. You know it's easy to waste time even when a book is open in front of you. So turn off your iPod, your email, and Facebook. And don't be one of those students who spends more time planning her study schedule than actually studying.

The most important tip I got first semester of 1L year was to learn how to take a law school exam. That's right, learn how to take the exam. It's not enough to know the law--most people will walk into exams with roughly the same amount substantive knowledge. Rather, you need to know how to write an A exam answer. So you need to find out how exams are written (issue spotter, policy, etc.) and how they are graded (checklist method, staircase method, etc.).

Start by getting old exams on file. Then invest in an exam writing book or program. There are a number of different exam taking strategies out there--all of them are some sort of variation of the traditional IRAC method. Some people use LEEWS, some use Getting to Maybe, some use other systems. I'm not saying one is better than the other, just that you should find one that works. And don't put it off. You'll need time to learn how to write an exam and get comfortable with it before exams begin. With the exception of the two or three bona fide legal geniuses in my class, all of us who made Law Review did so courtesy of some sort of exam writing method.

That said, I don't recommend blowing off reading assignments. I learned best by briefing every case. It's true, you won't be quizzed on names and dates come exam time, but briefing ensures that you won't be passive in your reading. And it forces you to understand difficult and frustrating concepts. Just don't let yourself move on to the next case until you actually understand what the heck was going on in the previous case.

Despite what some believe, the law is not simply a long list of black letter rules to be memorized. It is as much a method of thinking and writing as it is a system of rules. So dig into the cases, brief them, and see how it all works. Some may disagree with me on this point, but I say try it for the semester. You can always stop briefing later. But, in my opinion, 1L year is not the time to be looking for short cuts in your studying.

Speaking of short cuts, be wary of getting advice, outlines, etc., from students who haven't achieved what you want (you wouldn't take job advice from the unemployed, so don't get too excited when a 3L hands you an outline for a class in which they got a B). You'll figure out who the smart ones are soon enough. When you do, seek them out. Until then, tread cautiously.

Finally, about a month or so before exams begin, start making your own outlines. Some say start earlier, but I really think it helps to have some sort of understanding of how all the different topics fit together before you begin outlining. But whenever you start, it will occupy a good portion of your study time. This means you'll probably start spending less time on class prep, and more on exam prep. That's okay. Keep up with the read/briefing, and don't worry so much about giving the "right" answer to your prof. when you get called on in class.

That's my two cents. It worked for me, but I don't promise it's for everyone. One final bit of advice: although you want to get the best grades possible, don't be a competitive DB about it. There are way too many of them out there and none of them are very happy with themselves. So if a friend misses class, email her your notes. Take Saturday night off and go out and have fun. And if the night before an open notes torts exam you find someone freaking out in the library because he never got around to learning negligence, just hand him a copy of your outline. Trust me, it won't hurt you a bit. And, these days, good karma is priceless.

I think I may have fallen in love with 171.

I threw away a good chunk of my 20s in law school. I wish I had not. Give serious thought to whether you should really be there.

It may make sense to wait a bit, and work in other fields, before coming to law school. I did that (worked as an engineer before going to law school), and I think it helped me quite a lot in improving my resume, instilling good work habits, acquiring good IP-related experience, and realizing that no matter how grueling law firm work is reputed to be, it can't possibly be as bad as engineering, and it pays significantly better.

As a 2nd year at a v10 who went to a law school that was not inthe top 50, I can say that 171 is spot on and I wish somebody had given me that advice when I started school.

Make sure to find the finest chicks (it will be slim pickens, trust me) and hang with them. They do law school right.

Get an engineering degree, instead.

176,

False. The hottest girls in my class all pretty much ended up middle of the class. The only hot girl who made law review was married.

Hang with the hotties for fun, but don't let them influence your studying or preparation. Hot girls are usually genetically incapable of much intelligence.

Go to an all black law school and be top of your class. It worked for me.

Best advice=be married coming into school. You'll have 3x the sex of your desperate classmates who never sleep, be twice as focused, and your odds of making law review and being top 10% will be so much higher, it's unfair. I would guess that around half of the top ten percent of my class is married, engaged, or in a long- term relationship, while it's probably closer to a quarter for the class as a whole. The percentages on law review are even higher.

Oh, and don't expect the career office to help you find a job your 1L summer. They spend all their time helping 2L's. The firms probably won't want you either. Take your job search in your 1L year seriously, don't be too picky, and ask all your relatives and friends to help you. I have a great resume, great grades, attend a T14 school, and got a wonderful job my 2L summer. My 1L summer, however, no one wanted me. I did manage to find a job - a judge owed my parents a favor - but without that family connection, I would have spent my summer unemployed.

You will be well served not to count on the career office to help you with anything. Use their services, but rely on your own initiative to find work.

If you have prior work experience, you can get paid federal jobs. It is rare, but not impossible.

Moorehead State University on an inverse affirmative action scholarship worked for me just fine. I was a god amongst men.

Hamline JD/MBA

...nuff said.

If you have time, go to a court with a jury trial; otherwise, just find a video. Look around. Try to figure out what everyone is getting paid to be there. You can ignore the spectators and defendant. Match your money ambitions. Did you pick a juror? $15/day plus parking? Good, you get to waste three years on answers (or, if you prefer, the truth) and land in the middle half of your class. Who did it? Who's right? Who's wrong?

You don't need a law degree to do that. Real lawyers do questions. They frame questions. They work hard on eliciting facts that answer those questions or facts that cast doubt on those answers.

When you get to the series of slip and fall banana peel cases in torts, you will eventually cry out in unison "What color was the banana?!!!" if that doesn't translate for you into contracts, property, etc., hang it up and go home because you are still hung up on answers.

If you have time, go to a court with a jury trial; otherwise, just find a video. Look around. Try to figure out what everyone is getting paid to be there. You can ignore the spectators and defendant. Match your money ambitions. Did you pick a juror? $15/day plus parking? Good, you get to waste three years on answers (or, if you prefer, the truth) and land in the middle half of your class. Who did it? Who's right? Who's wrong?

You don't need a law degree to do that. Real lawyers do questions. They frame questions. They work hard on eliciting facts that answer those questions or facts that cast doubt on those answers.

When you get to the series of slip and fall banana peel cases in torts, you will eventually cry out in unison "What color was the banana?!!!" if that doesn't translate for you into contracts, property, etc., hang it up and go home because you are still hung up on answers.

If you have time, go to a court with a jury trial; otherwise, just find a video. Look around. Try to figure out what everyone is getting paid to be there. You can ignore the spectators and defendant. Match your money ambitions. Did you pick a juror? $15/day plus parking? Good, you get to waste three years on answers (or, if you prefer, the truth) and land in the middle half of your class. Who did it? Who's right? Who's wrong?

You don't need a law degree to do that. Real lawyers do questions. They frame questions. They work hard on eliciting facts that answer those questions or facts that cast doubt on those answers.

When you get to the series of slip and fall banana peel cases in torts, you will eventually cry out in unison "What color was the banana?!!!" if that doesn't translate for you into contracts, property, etc., hang it up and go home because you are still hung up on answers.

I went to a top 40 law school, made top 20%, secondary journal and moot court and I work at big law. It can be done.

The job process is brutal, but not without hope. I went to a Top 30-40 Law School. I did not crack the top 50% after my 1L year, mainly due to an f*ck up on one exam (in a subject that had no relation to my ultimate practice area). All other grades were solid, but one bad one screws you permanently.

Finding a job 1L summer was impossible (ended up as unpaid clerk for a judge). As someone with four years of work experience, however, I had some experience to sell. I ended up with a job starting out at $145k (which ain't bad for Charlotte/Atlanta). You just need to have persistence in your search and stay flexible on your city. Also, as other stated, you must buckle down 2L/3L years. I ended up graduating with honors, but one bad grade 1L year will haunt you.

So learn how to take a law school exam. Preferably, prior to the first one. Just remember, you don't have to know everything. If you don't know something, say what you do and move on. Not finishing an exam is the worst possible outcome.

Agreeing with 188:

I was at a T30 school, only moved into the top 1/4 2L year, and did NOT do a journal or moot court, and I got into Big Law.

By NOT doing a journal or crap like that and taking things I am good at, I was able to get like a 3.75 2L year. 1L matters the most, but ignore the bozos who say it is ALL that matters. You CAN pull yourself up and salvage things with a little luck.

But I did all that networking crap Career Services tells you to do. Its annoying, but sometimes it actually works.

Letter to a Young Law Student
Don't go to law school: But if you must, take my advice.
By Dahlia Lithwick
Posted Thursday, Aug. 15, 2002, at 4:54 PM ET
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I started law school 10 years ago this week. While you may be aware that I consider the law to be mostly very funny, I take law school pretty seriously. When I started law school I had no idea what I was in for: maybe some hybrid of debate camp and LA Law. In actual fact, for me, law school was a cross between boot camp and a cave.

Some small fraction of every incoming One-L class is comprised of people destined to take the legal world by storm. These are the people who intend to get straight A's, outline every case, make law review, clerk for a Reagan appointee, and spend the rest of their days in a leviathan corporate law firm where they will do whatever it is that's done in such places. These are the people law school was built for: people who think in zero-sum terms about everything—grades, jobs, and salaries. I wish them the very best of luck for the next three years. This advice is not for them.

This advice for the rest of you—who applied to law school simply because you took the LSATs, and who took the LSATs simply because the MCATs were too hard. This advice is for the people who graduated college with the generalized sense that they ought to be doing good works on this planet but were uncertain how to go about it. In short, this advice is for those of you who, like me, went to law school hoping that the experience would be stimulating and/or mind-expanding; a liberal-arts grad school for political people. Because you are doubtless trying to memorize the "blue book" this week, this advice is pre-outlined for your convenience.

A. Know Why You Are Going

As noted, the majority of people who get swept up into the law schools of North America are there as a result of inertia, career confusion, or some combination of both, and not a searing passion for drafting complex discovery motions. But that same inertia that swept you into law school may just sweep you into a corporate career in which you never had any interest. If you're at law school because you burn to work at a big firm, or because teaching torts cranks you beyond all imagining, have at it. But if you're there because your dad dressed you in Michigan Law footie-pajamas, or you love writing, or you vaguely hope to do something about the rainforest, you'll want to work hard to avoid being sucked into the screaming centripetal force that is the corporate law firm.

So, write yourself a letter. Quick, while you still can write. Write it, seal it, and then open it at graduation. Tell your post-law-school self what you'd hoped to do with that J.D. Acknowledge that you'll leave law school with huge loans, but you knew that going in. Tell yourself that if you take a job you hate in three years to pay off loans that don't exist until now, you'll emerge in 10 years in the same place you are today. Only balding.
B. Know Why You Are Not Going

If there is one law of law-school thinking it's this: "If everyone else wants something, I must want it, too." Not since the days of the Tonka backhoe and Malibu Skipper will you have so lunged for stuff in which you have no real interest, just because everyone else is lunging. Law school manages to impose odd new values on virtually everyone. And each step of the way, law students make choices—to interview with certain firms, take certain classes, apply for certain clerkships—based on an impoverished sense of other options and the fear that other people will get all the good stuff if you don't grab it. This is hard advice to give and harder, I expect, to take. Fear and conformity dig some pretty deep paths at law school. Don't just follow because they are there.

Ignore your grades. I mean it. Recognize that you will take some class pass/fail, study from the Nutshell the night before the test, and get an A, whereas you will outline some other class to within an inch of your life, teach a clinic on it, create an outline used by students for the next 70 years, and still get a C+ on the final. Why are all laws of intellectual physics so utterly upended at law school? Hell if I know. Something to do with forests and trees. But my advice is to just ignore the grades. Send 'em home and have your parents call you if you failed something. You will get a job. They don't matter. (Warning: If you don't look at your grades for two years, do not go back after graduation and ask that your con law professor change that C+ to an A. She will laugh very hard and tell you it's a "badge of honor.")
C. Have a Life

Someone in my One-L class rendered me semi-autistic in the first semester of law school by suggesting that I'd probably flunk out because I used an orange highlighter. The only person stupider than the moron who said that was me—I changed highlighters. No matter what your original values and habits would dictate, within a matter of weeks you'll be convinced that outlining every case, sucking up to every professor, and spending every non-class hour in the library are the only ways to survive, and that suffering is somehow rewarding and character-building. Mmm. Maybe if you're a pilgrim.

I had, for the first six months of law school, only one vector. I traveled from the dorms to the law school. After breakfast in the dorms I went to class in the law library, and from there I went to dinner in the dorms, which led inexorably to an evening in the law library. Another trench—leading from my bed to the law buildings—from which I was too freaked out to climb out. Somehow one night I ended up in some courtyard in the pouring rain, and then there was a Rodin sculpture and after that, the moon, and I went home and read some Shelley. The next day I felt like I'd gone on a three-week crack bender. Or like I'd had the best conjugal visit ever. Get out. Go to movies. Volunteer someplace. Make friends with the people at Starbucks. Get drunk but kiss someone when you're actually sober. Do anything to remind yourself that there is a life out there, and that missing one night of reading will not turn you into someone who lives in a garment box under the freeway.
All this advice is probably extreme and excessive. Your parents will probably set my house on fire for providing it. But read it anyhow. And think about it. Life is short. Misery is overrated. If law school is what you really want, then do it as yourself and not as if you were in a movie about Harvard men in the 1920s. Learn, question, make a precious lifelong friend, ignore the guy in the bow tie, and smile at the people hunger-striking for the ninth consecutive cause. Use an orange highlighter. Dig your own path. You may pop out in the moonlight. You'll probably be a better lawyer for it.

Dahlia Lithwick is a Slate senior editor.

Do very well as a 1L then transfer to Harvard

Look at the yellow pages, the Red Lawyer's Diary Book that comes out every year that list evey lawyer in your state, the ads on back of shopping carts and pennysaver weeklies and ask yourself if you really think you can make any money providing information to people in an information age, because that's basically what you will be doing for 40 years.

Don't listen to your parents or the fancy boys from big firm law who are big shots for 5 years then go out into legal retail and get beat up by guys from third rate schools who know how to do real things.

Watch out for those provisionally approved schools listed on endofesq--that's like doubling down on a lame horse.

191: WTF was that? She went to Stanford. Her own advice doesn't even apply to her. Based solely on her school, BigLaw was a given and a good clerkship wasn't far from grasp.

Best Advice:

Only read the first half of any assignment and then "volunteer" in the beginning of class when the professor asks a question. Once they see you volunteer or you answer a question -- game over --most professors will skip over you in favor of calling on others.

Best Advice:

Only read the first half of any assignment and then "volunteer" in the beginning of class when the professor asks a question. Once they see you volunteer or you answer a question -- game over --most professors will skip over you in favor of calling on others.

Best Advice:

Only read the first half of any assignment and then "volunteer" in the beginning of class when the professor asks a question. Once they see you volunteer or you answer a question -- game over --most professors will skip over you in favor of calling on others.

Don't go - http://www.slate.com/?id=2069512

73, 106 and 123--All good advice. Also:

1) hang with your own kind in the yard.

2) when you ass-stash your shank, remember to tape the blade.

Can someone elaborate further on this?

3-When called upon, turn the situation around and use leading questions with the prof to establish the point you want to make. He or she has likely never actually practiced law and will be uncomfortable with your technique. That should keep them at bay from calling upon you later in the semester. It also entertains your fellow classmates - and that's what's most important.

Yawn.

Biggest tip: don't be scared. It's a lot less bad than you think it is. They try to break you down in the first couple of weeks through fear and overwork; all of it pointless.

1) I know this has been said before by several people above, but the most important part about learning to succeed in law school is being able to determine what the professor wants to see on his or her exams. Past exams (with answers) in the library help you determine how to write an 'A' answer. Some profs are lazy and actually recycle exams from past years, too. If a prof has no exams in the library, hunt out 2Ls and 3Ls who did well during their 1L to get the dirt on what a prof likes (and what a prof doesn't like) to see on an exam. Don't think that your 1L class rank will be at all predicted by your LSAT score percentile as compared to the rest of the incoming class.

2) Attending class can be useful as some professors will base exam questions on classroom discussions which aren't in the textbooks. Your notes should be as verbatim as possible. Learn to type really fast.

3) Reading is also useful since some professors will base questions on cases in the book which they do not discuss or they will give you extra "points" for bringing up unassigned cases in the "footnotes" on your exam (my torts prof was fond of this).

4) Study groups are a waste of time, just find one or two people in your section that you tolerate and study with them. One of your study partners should be dumber than you (learn by teaching) and one should be smarter than you.

5) Briefing cases, using multicolored highlighters and other gimmicks are like training wheels. They're useful to help you learn how to read cases when you just begin, but you shouldn't need them after the first six weeks.

6) Law school's more like Legally Blonde than The Paper Chase. You'll have a few scary professors and rather stressful/busy periods, but you'll also have some fun house parties, salacious gossip, and actually attractive people.

7) Get your hands on some prescription sleep aids or certain pain relievers. I attribute some of my As to percocet because I slept soundly the night before the exam after taking a half-tablet before going to bed.

8) Only hook up with one person in your section, especially if you're a girl.

9) If you have nothing to wear to the annual Halloween party, don't just show up in a matching bra and panties with a pair of wings bought at the local supermarket pretending to be a Victoria's Secret angel. You can only get away with this if you're a flaming homosexual or the hottest girl in the school.

10) One way to avoid being called on in class when you don't know the answer is to "volunteer" when you do know the answer.