Accept Your Offers: A Brief Follow Up
After our post on the importance of accepting your offers, we figured that most students sitting on offers would do the right thing — for themselves and their colleagues — and make a decision.
But maybe some students are just a little more indecisive than others. Last night, Northwestern students received this email:
Dear Second-Year Students Holding Offers,As you know, we are in very tough economy. In tough economies, firms, not unexpectedly, tend to take a much closer look at the bottom line.
Please accept your offers as soon as possible. We have heard, both by communication with our colleagues at UPenn and from one of our own students, that offers may be withdrawn once a firm considers that its summer class is full, whether or not the 45-day period has expired.
In addition to assisting other students who may then receive an offer that you turn down, it is also in your own best interest to accept quickly.
If you have any questions or concerns, please speak with your Career Advisor.
Good luck with your decisions,
Your Career Advisors
We expect that quite a few Northwestern law students have offers in the Chicago market. Have you guys been paying attention to what is happening in the Chicago market?
More laggards after the jump.
Brooklyn Law School also has students that are simply not paying attention:
This is a somewhat urgent message regarding OCI offers. We have heard that some firms have rescinded offers of employment (at other schools) before the expiration of the offer period because they have experienced higher than usual acceptances and reached the limit on the size of the class earlier than expected. Other firms are honoring the surplus offers but advise that they cannot guarantee a post-graduate offer following the summer. Accordingly, we urge you not to wait until the last minute to accept an offer, and we also advise that you not seek an extension for an outstanding offer. Waiting for another offer to materialize does not qualify as a legitimate reason for an extension, nor is simple indecision.Please seek your career counselor’s advice if you are uncertain about how to proceed in a particular situation.
Joan A. King, Esq.
Director of the Career Center
Are there really people waiting for an offer to materialize?
As many commenters pointed out, now is not the time to be messing around with this decision. Offers are being rescinded for people who take too long, and it is good to show your future employer that you are “excited” to be working for them.
Puff, puff, pass!
Earlier: Accept Your Offers: Stop Screwin’ Around You Kids Screw Around Too Much
Nationwide Layoff Watch: Jenner & Block Cuts … Partners
(234) Comments
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first
first to no job!
Accept your offers, you little shits!
Nice post.
Rofl at the idea of people at BLS really having multiple offers.
Can we get a list of firms doing this instead of a list of schools saying firms are doing this?
Puff, puff, pass? About as funny as an ironic hipster moustache.
I'm sitting on my offers... suck it.
8 = MANGINA
NINTH
5 - ROFL at your ignorance. A lot of 2Ls at BLS have multiple offers.
i am still deciding between 3 firms - V10, V20 and a V50 firm. I have a few friends with a similar issue - do you go with prestige or do you go with quality of life?
snap
10 - i was ninth. suck it (#9)
Rofl at 11 who is soon to have 0 offers
"Waiting for another offer to materialize does not qualify as a legitimate reason for an extension, nor is simple indecision." The A. in Joan A. King must stand for "A disciple of Mystal's."
Do we expect ANY 1Ls to get summer offers this year?
"Are there really people waiting for an offer to materialize?"
Isn't that the most common reason for asking for an extension? Not having heard back from firm B by the time firm A's offer expires.
11 - If that is your equation, go with prestige, because quality of life at V10, V20 and V50 are all the same - poor. However, I would counsel you to consider training, opportunity, and in this market, stability/security above "quality of life."
11 - what are your plans for 7-8 years from now (if that long) when you haven't made partner at any of those firms and they tell you that you won't have a job in 3 months?
I chose quality of life (V40), as if there is any at any Biglaw firm, over prestige (V10). Same cash, cooler people, hopefully a little less demanding.
If I don't have ridiculous aspirations and am looking at law as a lucrative job, not a passion, is this the right move?
So basically, the NALP guidelines no longer apply when the economy is bad? On the flip side, should we, as law students, take that as free license to violate them (and sit on 10, or 20, offers) when economic times are good and the offers are flowing like candy in Willy Wonka's factory?
19, it's all about the people. shitty people - bad job. tolerable people - good job. unfortunately, the situation you end up with is usually decided by chance. it doesn't help that most annoying law students (like the grammarians featured in the comments of this blog) inevitably end up at law firms...with you.
good luck.
Its nice of the career development offices at U Penn State to do this. But I wonder if this is as much a problem at the Philadelphia campus as it is on their other campuses.
This is a serious question:
Can firms really rescind offers before the NALP 45 day requirement has elapsed? Even if there is no official sanction for doing so, isn't the risk of reputational [sic] harm a consideration?
I recently received a phone call from a V50 firm I have an offer from informing me that they expect to be over-subscribed. I was explicitly told my offer would not be rescinded, but the firm certainly seemed to be trying to dissuade me from accepting, or at the very least wasn't as enthusiastic about me accepting.
Note: I may be holding on to multiple offers, but have barely crossed the 20 day mark for most of them, some even fewer.
-Getting more stressed by these posts....
Yes, would the 2 BLS students with offers finally tell the public defender's office that they accept!!!!
I'm at a T20 school and have friends looking all over the country; I'd say about half have accepted an offer. I don't know of anyone who has had an offer rescinded. I'm not convinced that a huge epidemic of rescinded offers exists-- yet. To the extent that offers are being rescinded, my guess is that it's at firms that are weak anyway.
11: obviously prestige is not important to you sine you are at BLS
11- I would go with Skadden DC, I hear they are doing just fine plus you get to be in DC which is also fine. Everything is fine.
Captain Lithium
Who do these dipshit law students think they are holding onto numerous offers -- accept an f-ing offer and be happy you have one. I've even heard of students going back to firms after receiving offers to "follow up." What the f is up with that?
i'm a bls 2L and irregardless of what you ignerant posters say, may classmates are just as intellegant as graduates from big name law schools like fordham.
-- BLS 2L
This is a serious question:
Can firms really rescind offers before the NALP 45 day requirement has elapsed? Even if there is no official sanction for doing so, isn't the risk of reputational [sic] harm a consideration?
I recently received a phone call from a V50 firm I have an offer from informing me that they expect to be over-subscribed. I was explicitly told my offer would not be rescinded, but the firm certainly seemed to be trying to dissuade me from accepting, or at the very least wasn't as enthusiastic about me accepting.
Note: I may be holding on to multiple offers, but have barely crossed the 20 day mark for most of them, some even fewer.
-Getting more stressed by these posts....
28- follow ups are fine when you're trying to choose between a couple of firms.
proper etiquette in declining an offer: email or phone call?
Wow 5 of the 10 students with offers at BLS have not yet accepted. Incredible.
Look what the cat just dragged in. It's Joan "cook the books" King.
24- believe it or not it's pretty hard to even get a job with the public defender no matter where you're from, especially in NYC. I guess you could go to New Orleans though.
Can someone explain the "Skadden DC" trolls? Did I miss something?
Elie, Good job on the story. You have truly earned ur late-night taco bell.
For the rest of you V100-V5 BigLaw pussies--if ur firm hasn't done any bloodletting yet, start hoardin ur work, cuz it's comin harder than cytherea on a sybian.
Kisses:)
32: for the love of god, man, pick up the phone. Have you no decency?
email cuz they don't want to talk to you either
THIS IS JUST A SCARE TACTIC BY CAREER SVCS TO HELP THOSE WHO GET NO OFFERS. nice try, any firm in the v-50 would not rescind. 45 days is 45 days.
i'm sure some firms resicinded -- eg, the law firm of TTT & TTT in Orlando, FL. Now Career Svcs uses it as "evidence" of a widespread thing.
11 -
ROFL!!!!!
Calling your bluff. You have an offer from McDonald's, Wendy's and BK.
As for your "quality of life" dilemma - wherever you'll be promoted from the fryer the fastest. It'll make your clothes smell worse than that crap degree you're getting.
23/30 -- what is NALP going to do? And what reputational harm do you think they will incur?
if law firms' classes are close to being filled, they should have the courtesy of notifying their outstanding offerees that time is running up; it's not the offerees' fault that the law firms were lackadaisical in handing out an inordinate number of offers. what's the point of the 45-day rule if offers will "expire" before then? the firms should at least tell people to hurry up before they start handing out offers they can't honor.
i think that law school career offices should punish those law firms for acting like this by barring them from coming to future OCIs. Unfortunately, given the economy, firms will probably get away with what they're doing. which is a travesty.
Most firms will not rescind offers, but when their classes are too big next summer, rest assured it won't be 100% offer years.
Should I sit on an offer from Heller?
Should I sit on an offer from Heller?
26 - good one ;-)
But I like my free ride and nice subsidized apartment from BLS. I admit it is not prestigious but I still ended up with the same opportunity as most T14 students with very little debt and a pretty good time in NYC.
BLS < dump < TTT
crickets..........Skadden DC.. ......... even more crickets ... ........ .........
40- Greenberg Traurig rescinded some offers.
23/30: If you're an at will employee, then it doesn't matter if they can revoke the offer; they could just fire you the first day. The question is whether them saying the program is 10 weeks or whatever counts as an agreement to hire you for that long.
I think it's pretty classy for them to encourage you to take other offers or to let you know that there won't be enough offers for all the SAs. Much better than leaving you in the dark about the firm's financial situation.
Can we possibly get a list o' shame going for firms rescinding offers?
I've got an offer for you... in my PANTS.
47 -
Get off the glue. There's a reason they're giving it away for free.
How many legal blogs do you guys rip off on a daily basis? I count 6 so far.
Mystal sits on all of his offers until they suffocate under his obnoxious heft.
suck it, Mystal, one more time
I'm a bls 2L and irregardless of what you ignerant posters say, may classmates are just as intellegant as graduates from big name law schools like fordham.
-- BLS 2L
Wow 29! I hope that was a joke, because the irony of the fact that you used a word that doesn't actually exist ("irregardless"), the word "may" instead of "my", and misspelled the words "intelligent" and "ignorant" while trying to prove your point is fucking hilarious. Idiot.
I remember when BLS offered me a full ride....
-Sarah Palin
Be happy you have a job and stop sitting on offers. Next year's 2ls wont give a shit what firms do this year.
50, Greenberg is a horrid TTT - I am not surprised.
SKAAAAAAAAAADEN oh ...... ........ ...... SKAAAAAAAAAAADEN.......recession is a comin ..... SKAAADEN.
GULC of XMAS Future 2.0
56,
Your troll detector is completely GULC'ed.
56 = BLS summa
56 -- I hope you're not serious.
What's with all the Skadden DC comments recently?
How about a follow up on Foley? I know people that did Foley call-backs in Chicago and DC that have not even heard back, either "yes" or "no" from the firm. That firm is not in good shape.
geeze 56, look its' not like intranet explorer comes with a spell checker. dont be such a jerk.
--BLS 2L
It's bad enough when actual practicing lawyers put "Esq." after their own name, but for a Director of the Career Center to do it is truly pathetic.
23/30, do you really think firms give a crap about NALP guidelines when they are in survival mode due to the economy? BigLaw is a business, just like anything else. When actual lawyers are getting laid off left and right, it's pretty petty to be whining about NALP guidelines. Ultimately, the firms rescinding offers are doing law students a favor -- it allows students to find a firm that will actually have room for them, and not be stuck in a situation where they get no-offered at the end of the summer.
Elie Missed it All
67: I bet her signature has a fancy color and font too.
3 sums it up...
BLS magna >>> Hofstra summa
Discuss
An offer is revocable prior to acceptance. What happened to 1L common law, guys?
23/30
why don't you just accept an offer. man, it's mid october already.
and DON'T pick the one that all but told you that you won't get an offer next year. a firm was kind enough to tell me the same thing when i was a 2L, and i chose a different firm. pretty glad now being that that firm did NOT give full offers at the end of the summer...
An offer is revocable prior to acceptance. What happened to 1L common law, guys?
There was no consideration received by the firm which would make them keep the offer open.
56 = bls 2l
73 - Not for option contracts...must be a bls 2l
Fired Frank rescinded my friend's offer! They were nice enough to call before he accepted though.
73/75: In some states no consideration is needed when there is a written promise not to rescind the offer. I'm pretty sure New York is one of those states.
That's what happened to 1L common law.
77 = fordham 2L
73, 75, 77
ummm... it has nothing to do with 1L contracts class, so put away the emmanuels.
it's about NALP guidelines...
Cahill is one of the guilty firms. I guess the high yield debt market implosion was too much.
Should I sit on my offer from Heller or accept
offers are not being sat on for the hell of it. we are considering which firms are less likely to tank and are trying to hedge against disaster while waiting to hear back from firms - some of which are taking 3+ weeks to respond, for both dings and offers (seriously, offers are coming in after 3+ weeks). we know to not just hoard offers, but some of us are still trying to decide which firm we want to start our careers at when we have not yet heard back from our #1 choice. All of you had the liberty to wait until thanksgiving or some absurd date like that ... so let us make our decision the best we can and as quickly as possible.
and for the love of god people, post which firms are pulling these shenanigans!
-V14 2L
82 - how do you know Cahill is guilty? I haven't heard anything from them.
82 - how do you know Cahill is guilty? I haven't heard anything from them.
22-
Congrats on being the only 22 year-old AutoAdmit remnant on this thread. Someone had to be the idiot. congrats.
Free Ciolli
definitely sit on your offer from Heller. they might offer you more money if you play it coy. hth
Gentlemen at the legal preparatory academy with which I was once affilated, in times and places where such gentlemen were presented with a burgeoning economy, both with respect to legal enterprises and otherwise, frequently assembled offers of summer employment from numerous limited liability partnerships and other such creatures of statutory genesis and enablement, and toyed with the makers of such offers, as if they were mere bagatelles, before finally accepting those offers which the gentlemen found most pleasing to their own selves. In times of economic woe and anxiety, during which various leading indicators pointed in a most negative direction, the gentlemen found themselves in a more uncertain climate, yet continued to toy with the affections of those who sought to employ the gentlemen, merely because they were permitted to do so pursuant to the rules of the National Association of Legal Career Professionals. Such gentlemen did eventually accept the burdens and benefits of one of the offers placed before them, thereby allowing the declined offers to be restributed among other legal gentlemen of lesser kind and quality, otherwise known as the trolletariat. Although there were fewer such declined offers in the aforementioned times of economic distress, the gentlemen thought little of it.
84 -- get a fucking clue. It doesnt matter where you go, you are not going to make partner.
82 - how do you know Cahill is guilty? I haven't heard anything from them...
It is positively relaxing watching you all get paranoid about rescinded offers.
If I were you (and I most definitely am not you), I wouldn't count on having a job in the legal field seven years from now. Judging from the quality of the postings -- number 56 I'm looking hard at you -- you have sterling careers ahead as ditchdiggers in the new WPA that's coming up.
~In House Counsel
Cooley Boston is guilty.
23/30 here.
I didn't mean to come off as whining. I'm very appreciative to even have offers with everything going on right now. It's just that the firms I'm choosing between are quite different, from geography to practice. Also, I know it's mid-October, but I didn't get one of my offers till a week ago.
91 - who said anything about making partner?
- 84
23/30 here.
I didn't mean to come off as whining. I'm very appreciative to even have offers with everything going on right now. It's just that the firms I'm choosing between are quite different, from geography to practice. Also, I know it's mid-October, but I didn't get one of my offers till a week ago.
85/86 - Relax.
A lot of posters on ATL are just posting random nonsensical stuff... Some are just bitter about their rejection (see the Skadden DC posts - probably from the same person).
ATL is really turning into autoadmit and that is a terrible thing. There is nothing helpful in the comments anymore. Everyone is just posting idiotic comments and slamming decent firms and decent schools to feed their insecure ego.
90,
Who said anything (at all) about making partner?
- 84
84/95 -- you are a d-bag. You will never get laid no matter which firm you go to (is that better?).
89 = Legal Lothario = Good Troll
92 = In-House Counsel = Bad Troll
98 Same goes for you.
-99
definitely sit on your offer from Heller. they might offer you more money if you play it coy. hth
99,
lol. why are you trying to be an ass? I'm a chick and i have a fine sex life. promise. but thanks for your concern. you have zero clue what you are talking about. Deep apologies for the number mixup earlier, perhaps that is the reason for your misplaced rage? sorry about all your dings..
97,
You misrepresent me. I rip on crappy firms and law schools to make up for my abnormally small penis.
Get your facts straight.
"There is nothing helpful in the comments anymore. Everyone is just posting idiotic comments and slamming decent firms and decent schools to feed their insecure ego."
Slamming decent schools? BLS is an awful school. I graduated in the upper quarter of my class and I have been unemployed for months. How am I ever going to be able to start a family 160K in the hole with no job?
Is it enough that I called and accepted? Do I need to send a letter to accept too?
96, I was in a similar situation. The problem with looking for a job in different geographic areas is that some are on a much later schedule than others; I had completed interviews and had offers and dings in hand in one of the markets I focused on before I had my first callback in the other.
That said, everyone in the first city at least claimed to be sensitive to my plight and urged me to take my time figuring things out.
103 -- I dont doubt that you'll let just about any guy with a job at a big law firm get in your pants. And I have no clue what I'm talking about? You are a fucking law student with an overinflated ego who will clearly not make it very far in this business (blowjobs may get you in the door, but they'll only get you so far).
-99
Firms rarely rescind offers when offerees profess love of PEANUTS and CHEESE!
105,
No offense, but did you do your research BEFORE law school? I can't believe that a reasonably prudent person would prance into a POOR law school and expect to get a top-notch job without finishing summa.
Admittedly, my school is merely T25, but if I could only get into a T35 school or worse, I would have either retaken the LSAT or gone to grad school.
What's better, the firm rescinding now or just no-offering you? A firm knows if it's going to wind up with too many people it's going to have to cut, why not do it now and give you a chance to find employment with another firm?
99,
I am someone trying to make an extremely important decision, and your advice that I will not make partner or have a sexually satisfying life because I need some time to think about the choice is not constructive or logical. Calm yourself and get a grip.
103/84
112,
Don't hide your chronic indecisiveness behind a cloak of prudence. Make a decision. It doesn't take 6 weeks.
This can't be that hard to figure out which firms are doing well and which aren't. The legal field is full of gossip about what firms are busy, which ones restructured to "take advantage" of transactional work and consequently are slow now. Try to find out what's going on in the city where you have an offer (probably in or near the city where you are in school) and then choose the best firm that is diversified enough to survive.
What's better, the firm rescinding now or just no-offering you? A firm knows if it's going to wind up with too many people it's going to have to cut, why not do it now and give you a chance to find employment with another firm?
I ended up really liking the very last firm I went to. It was last Friday and I got an offer today. How soon is too soon to accept? The hiring partner told me that I was pretty much the last person to whom they were giving an offer. Was that a hint to accept soon? I don't want to look desperate by accepting so soon, but I'm scared that the class will fill up or something. Advice?
- Nervous top 10 2L
112- it's not that hard of a decision. Get over yourself. If you can't make a decision, you won't make a good lawyer.
110 -
Sorry, but even at T25, you are not very educated in how TTT's market services to potential students.
Expense is offset by how strong TTT performs in the region, how they compare to V14 regional school, how well they place graduates in regional job markets.
All lies. You and I know that. People believe in what they want to believe, even when logic reveals the fallacy of the decision.
Oh, don't think educated folks do the same? Go talk to the educated Wall Street folks.
116: nobody thinks about your "desperation." They made an offer, you want it, so accept now. You could have accepted when they called. There's no negotiation involved in this, so you don't gain any bargaining power by making it seem as if you have many offers outstanding that you'd like to take.
Any "reputational harm" caused by rescinding an offer that a 2L has held for three weeks (because the summer class is full) will be far less than that caused by having an oversubscribed summer class and only giving offers to 80% of them...
perhaps i didn't make it clear? we have not been sitting on all our offers for 6 weeks ... firms are taking very long to get back to us, and even after a period of 3+ weeks it can still be an offer. Thus, it is not 6 weeks with all the firms on the table and not being able to decide; it is 6 weeks with NOT all the firms on the table, and and making a decision based on that. I'm not waiting forever ... I'm giving my #1 a bit more time to come through (days not weeks). again, calm down.
84/103/112
What's BLS?
116- you make me vomit. Accept the damn offer, they'll be glad you're excited.
-T20 2L, top grades, no offers.
119, you also appear to have a GULC'ed up troll detector
116- you make me vomit. Accept the damn offer, they'll be glad you're excited.
-T20 2L, top grades, no offers.
my advice, and granted this is somewhat shady, accept an offer now and keep on interviewing. if you get an offer at another firm that you would rather take, just accept it and tell the earlier firm you will no longer be coming to the firm. the short of it, these firms will treat you like shit and you owe nothing to them. if your school has a problem with it, fuck'em. they're role is to teach you and take your money...not mess with your career path.
as rodney said, you need to look out for number one...without stepping in number two.
I'm glad firms are rescinding now rather than no-offering after the summer. We all should be. This is certainly the lesser of two evils.
121 -- shit or get off the pot. Nobody feels bad for you, nor will they if your #1 falls through and the others rescind. These firms dont give a shit about you, they just want a specific number of warm bodies filling their offices this summer and once they get that may acceptances, you're fucked.
124: you may be right...I may have. But, are you sure you're not overestimating the ability of a law student to think rationally? I'm just going by the comments I see on this board generally.
122: Bureau of Labor Statistics. Awful law school.
NALP has guidelines, but it's not the Word of Jesus Christ. And there is no REPUTATIONAL HARM if there is no list of shame. So far there are maybe two or three buried in the comments.
It's simple. Because of the bad economy firms are seeing offer / acceptance yields increase this year (less positions available elsewhere) above their historical patterns. Thus, they have handed out too many offers, not because of poor planning, but because of unforseen circumstances and changes in the legal market. The choice is either to rescind offers now or be forced to no-offer after the summer. Be glad that some places are giving you the chance to find permanent employment elsewhere. If you can't understand the business decisions behind this then you probably are not going to be very helpful to your potential business clients later on anyway. Get it through your heads, this is not a market where summers are the limited commodity, this year it is the jobs that are limited.
Do they pay bonuses to summer associates?
Serious question.
~T10 2L law school student
It's simple. Because of the bad economy firms are seeing offer / acceptance yields increase this year (less positions available elsewhere) above their historical patterns. Thus, they have handed out too many offers, not because of poor planning, but because of unforseen circumstances and changes in the legal market. The choice is either to rescind offers now or be forced to no-offer after the summer. Be glad that some places are giving you the chance to find permanent employment elsewhere. If you can't understand the business decisions behind this then you probably are not going to be very helpful to your potential business clients later on anyway. Get it through your heads, this is not a market where summers are the limited commodity, this year it is the jobs that are limited.
133 - yes as to ny firms. you will get a bonus based on the average of the second and third quarter bonuses doled out to associates. some firms however, will only use the third quarter number (it's usually lower due to the fact that billings are lower for that period - everyone is in the hamptons).
List of firms rescinding so far...
Ropes and Gray
Thelen
Kaye Scholer
Squire Sanders
Mintz Levin
If you already accepted at these I'd be deucing my pants right now worrying about next summer
132 -
I would hardly say that these circumstances are "unforeseen." You're telling me these firms couldn't have expected higher acceptance rate when they knew that they, and other firms, would be giving out less offers? Less offers to go around + same amount (or more) applicants = higher acceptance rates.
Buncha clowns running these firms. Lawyers obvi aren't math people.
I dont understand why the people with offers (who presumably got top grades and thus are very smart) come to this cesspool of hatred and anger, to get advice.
The overwhelming majority of people who comment write stupid crap. There is nothing good about this comment section. Stop trying to solicit advice.
23/30 and 40
Please do not be so naive. BigLaw firms even rescinded first year offers for '08 graduates as late as this summer. NALP guidelines mean nothing, and firms certainly can and will rescind Summer Associate offers if they see fit given the current state of the economy.
Which firms are rescinding offers?
What is NALP? Is it like SelsonBlue?
There should be no reputational harm to the firms that are doing this.
Less summers = fewer no-offers
The 2003-2007 rules no longer apply kids. This is a seller's market.
132, I have to disagree with you. Firms could have seen the writing on the wall and drastically reduced the number of offers they gave (a firm that gave me an offer told me they had done this). Instead, they chose to ignore the signs. Don't make the firms out to be the victim here...
What's BLS?
142 -- Fewer summers. How did you get it right with "fewer no offers" but then write "less summers"? Are you just guessing?
43- law schools should PUNISH firms that rescind offers by barring them from OCI? You can't be serious. For any school that's not in the top 10 or so, these firms are doing the school and their students a FAVOR by participating in OCI.
No, I didn't graduate Summa, but I figured that if I graduated in the top quarter of the class, I would get some kind of job, any kind of job. I feel like I was just swindled out of 160K. Joan King said just last November that she didn't have any indication that law firms were going to pull back in hiring. Also, the numbers that BLS and other schools put out are downright bogus.
82 -
Cahill allowed me to accept my offer less than a week ago, so if they're rescinding offers it must be very recent.
What reputational harm? In two years summers from top tier schools will still accept offers from CWT, Clifford Chance, Sonnenschein, Ropes, etc. Silly summers, you're not profitable to anyone and you don't make it rain so no one cares.
King & Spalding
Squire Sanders
Drinker Biddle Chicago
SkaddenDC
No one making plans in early August could have known how bad things would be by October. Firms are not victims, they are businesses. Some are trying to help people out now rather than screw them later. Stop whining and hoarding offers. Deal with the economy just like everyone else. If you haven't heard from a firm in a few weeks then you are in a holding pattern, not getting an offer unless some space opens up. Deal with it.
too many law students and law schools in this world. I tell all college students to go to med school or become engineers!
145 - since when are summers individuals and not just an amorphous group?
- 142
151, I go to a school with early (i.e. mid-August) OCI. Multiple firms told me at that time that they intended to shrink their summer classes this year. Clearly, some understood that things would be worse (if not downright bad).
127: you say: "I'm glad firms are rescinding now rather than no-offering after the summer. We all should be. This is certainly the lesser of two evils."
Are you living under a rock? Why do you think these two possibilities are mutually exclusive? The economy is spiralling down the shitter, who knows how much worse things will be 9 months from now? A firm that rescinds a few offers now may still very will have to ding summers later
Sidley Chicago rescinding offers
Law students also knew things would be bad, they can't expect the same negotiating power they have in good years.
2ls who are sitting on offers = retards
126 - isn't that a little unethical?
126 -- that's the easiest way to fuck yourself. If the second firm hears about it, they will rescind their offer.
What reputational harm? In two years summers from top tier schools will still accept offers from CWT, Clifford Chance, Sonnenschein, Ropes, etc. Silly summers, you're not profitable to anyone and you don't make it rain so no one cares.
Whats up with Skadden DC?
126 -- someone will find out and tell the second firm. You would just be shooting yourself in the foot.
Just remember kids... your offer at DLA Piper is worthless anyway.
who are you kidding...second firm ain't gonna hear shit if you play it right (i will agree that this is decidely easier to pull off if you're playing firms from two different cities).
165 -- sure they will. The first firm will call the school, who will tell them where the student went, and the firm and/or the school will call the second firm. Not a good idea.
151, not true. Firms knew even around the fall of last year that this year would be different. Maybe not this bad, but they knew there would be a belt tightening and harsher reviews bc less associates would be leaving.
164- please explain re: DLA Piper
It is in your own best interest to accept your offer ASAP. Not just because it might get withdrawn but because it shows you are eager. In this economy no one is guaranteed a post-summer offer. I had all of my prospects ranked as soon as I finished my callbacks. I accepted the day after I got the offer at my top choice and everyone was really positive about it. I think showing that you are excited about a firm by accepting quickly can only benefit you. You should have all of your callbacks ranked anyway so you know what you are going to accept before the offers even come in.
149 - subtle anti-Ropes trolling. Highly uncalled for.
*hopes they're taking your offers away to give them to a nervous T-10 1L*
-nervous T-10 1L
I'm a jackass.
-nervous T-10 1L
Someone list the firms that are doing this. This thread makes it sound like there is some sort of epidemic of rescinding offers. Seriously, how many are there? How often has this supposedly happend?
My firm made significantly fewer offers for this summer because it wants a signficantly smaller summer class. Everyone was taken aback by how quickly and badly the economy went south recently, but it has been slowly for a while. Surely more firms recognized the way things were going and adjusted their hiring needs.
166 - you don't tell original firm or school you're taking a different offer. call original firm and come up with some bullshit (my mom is dying and i need to spend the summer with her).
People keep seeing that it's better to get the offer revoked now than to be no-offered at the end of the summer. Who's to say, though, that the people whose offers are revoked (because they waited too long) are the same people who would get no-offered? Fortunately, I am not in this position, but candidates and firms are probably both being hurt by this because small summer classes are being filled based on who accepted early rather than based on who's the best candidate. If no-offering didn't carry more of a stigma than revoking an offer, I imagine firms would prefer the former (unless they can't justify the costs of paying the extra summers). The only way to change that is to make this information public and create an uproar about it.
Someone list the firms that are doing this. This thread makes it sound like there is some sort of epidemic of rescinding offers. Seriously, how many are there? How often has this supposedly happend?
My firm made significantly fewer offers for this summer because it wants a signficantly smaller summer class. Everyone was taken aback by how quickly and badly the economy went south recently, but it has been slowly for a while. Surely more firms recognized the way things were going and adjusted their hiring needs.
170 - there is also non-subtle anti-Ropes trolling going on (see 136). I haven't heard anything about Ropes rescinding, so I am going to assume this is not true until something more believable comes up.
*saying* - 175
For those of us lucky enough to have received offers (and accepted), how important are 2L grades?
170 - there is also non-subtle anti-Ropes trolling going on (see 136). I haven't heard anything about Ropes rescinding, so I am going to assume this is not true until something more believable comes up.
sidley chicago...
Akin Gump Dallas to pay their summers $3,333
Any rumors about Cravath? I'm debating between them and Wachtell and don't want to get the rug pulled out from under me. The only thing I didn't like was the sort of sexist vibe I felt at CSM.
THESE PRETZELS -- THEY'RE MAKING ME ONE EIGHTY THIRDSTY!>!>!>>!>!>!
My understanding is that Squire Sanders has not rescinded any offers this year, and is actually doing quite well. But what the hell do I know?
148
what school are you at? I'm prob. accepting too.
82
175, firms aren't really being hurt by not getting the "best" candidate. Summer associates (and junior associates) are generally interchangeable; only law students and summers with their over-inflated sense of importance think they aren't. So instead of waiting for a Columbia grad who has sat on the offer for a month to say yes they wind up with NYU grad or Michigan grad who said yes first instead. No biggie. Most of you won't make it more than 3 years at the firm anyway.
Whine, whine, whine, whine. If you want to be at that firm, accept the offer. You are not ENTITLED to an offer. Firms are businesses and have to make business decisions. Grow up and join the real world.
absolutely no confirmed rumors re: ropes ... 136 called out?
the new 45 day rule is definitely putting a damper on things for some firms. a firm that I have been waiting to hear back for weeks has said that they are waiting for the first "batch" of offers to expire before releasing the second
Possible Future Posts Ellie:
1. 2L post-acceptance grade importance
2. Law firm Sexcapades - Are summers getting any?
190- in full agreement, at least with number 1.
Rather than directly reneging your acceptance, do this: get yourself fired before the summer begins. Call the managing partner and leave a long voicemail daily, schedule a meeting with HR to do an office tour to select your office with a view , and finally, attemp to negotiate an increased summer salary. In the meantime, accept the other offer.
These pretzels are making my 192-sties!!!
nutter mclellan
nutter mclellan
mayer Chicago
And let me tell you, I couldn't agree with him more...I couldn't disagree with you...I coulnd't agree with you that you're the most patriotic...god-loving...patriotic people in the country.
I have offers from S&C, Cleary, Cravath, DPW, Debevoise, Willkie, Shearman, and Heller- what should I do? I don't really feel like declining any offer because having these offers makes me feel good about myself and I like the fact that I am ruining other people's lives.
FIRST!!!
I posted the 200th comment.
Last!
202!!!!
203!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ropes is semi credited for nyc at least. No rescinding yet but they called a couple of offerees to let them know that the class was oversubscribed and that competition for offers will be fierce next summer.
To all the haters out there I'd like to say that:
Brooklyn Law ROCKS!!!
I'm working in Wildman Harrold's Brownstone department next summer thanks to BLS connections.
Guys at my high school used to sit on lots of offers all the time. It was no big deal.
FRAT STUD
186 - You're probably right. But my underlying point, I think, still remains. If someone is told (directly or indirectly) that the class is oversubscribed, it may still be rational for that person to go to that firm. If she distinguishes herself (or maybe if she's just lucky), a summer can still get an offer, even in an over-subscribed summer class. If the firm in question is the best option by a significant margin, then it may be worth taking that risk. If the firm revokes the offer, then the student never gets the chance to make that decision.
186 - I wrote 207. - 175
193= FAIL
Ropes is oversubscribed, and has been for a while. Too many summers, not enough work down the line. Huge classes should make anyone hesitate.
Ropes has too many people accepting their offers, and is therefore not handing any more out. However, they have several 2Ls on the hook waiting weeks and weeks (over a month) for an offer that will probably never come. I know several people who received an email weeks after their callback saying they "needed more time" because the firm is "somewhat behind schedule." Basically...not giving out any more offers until the 45 days expire for those they have already given.
It seems silly to not jump on offers you DO have in the hopes that Ropes will give you an offer. If you don't have one yet -- it ain't happenin'. Just send a ding letter already!!
Some facts on Ropes - 170 summers nationwide last year, 170 offers. So far, 1 person out of the 170 has declined. Nonetheless, the firm is growing enough to hire 3Ls for next year and pre-clerks. Next year's summer class is expected to be larger. This is because the firm has enough work and anticipates having enough work (due to its growing litigation and bankruptcy practices, and extremely steady investment management and health care practices). Ropes also did not lay anyone off in 2001 or in any other downturn (including the Great Panic of 1873, as the firm's chairman has pointed out), and just announced 12 new associates making partner (up from 10 last year). Hiring more now and not laying off in downturns may affect short-term profits per partner, but the firm is making a bet on the long-term. I, for one, am happy to be at a place growing and focused on the future. We don't have a bunch of people on this site defending the firm and trashing others because I for one don't want to be whistling past the graveyard while others are faltering, but facts are facts.
not so subtle ropes trolling defense starting in 3....2.....1....
In response to 169's "eager" comment,
If in your situation you have all or enough relevant information important to make the decision (prestige, pay, location, practice, people, etc.), then yes, accepting immediately a viable and smart option.
However, your advice is not universally applicable. Some people (let's say those at top schools with good grades and multiple offers) have the luxury of time on their side. The firms with higher prestige ranking, for better or worse, are so worried about maintaining prestige that they're less likely to revoke. So that candidate should take as much time as he/she feels is appropriate. Not everyone can see a Vault ranking and meet 5-10 people from a potentially 200-300 lawyer office and decide "this is the place for me." Granted, further visits and cajoling may not make a lick of difference, but lawyers should be deliberate and cautious. So is our nature (if we are worth a dime), so in making a decision, whether it is only for 3 years with the firm or not, should take reasonable diligence. You have aced the LSAT, gone to a top school, paid the $60K+ a year, finished with good grades all to get you in this position. You also know you have time to choose, and you will probably get an offer. At the top 20 Vault firms, I think offer rates are over 95% at all of them. So let's be rational here: you will almost positively get an offer where you go. So take your time and make a choice you are comfortable, instead of getting scared off. Many of the people who summered and then took jobs at these firms took multiple weeks to decide (even in down times). Hell, before the NALP change, people took 60 days or however many they could, and you know what? They got an offer! That's right! No one kept a stat sheet of who took the longest to accept the offer when deciding whether or not to make a full time offer! They looked to see whether you got along with co-workers and had a minimum capability of handling the job! No way! Maybe because that is what really matters, and lawyers (who most recruiters were at some point) get all the facts and then make a reasoned decision! Which is why this process gives you 45 days to accept!
Sorry for the rant. Again, this may not apply if you are not a top candidate or have offers from struggling firms. But for those at a top 10 school with offers from Vault 30 firms (which many of you are), you're going to be OK. Make the decision that is right for you when you are ready. You have earned at least that much at this point, regardless of how "unimportant" and interchangeable you eventually become as an associate.
I for one would rather my firm at which I am summer revoke offers from those still sitting on them. This does not worry for two reasons. The firm is making a conscious decision to keep the class small due to the lagging economy and two because it means that there will be less competition during the summer. I do not say this becuase I am a slacker. I am at a T10 school and going to a V20 firm. Despite going to a T10 school I do not feel entitled too anything and still work very hard. It's just I would prefer to have an intellectually rigoruous summer while at the same time an enjoyable one and the fact that the firm is making sure that the summer class is capped at a certain number largely assures that.
I for one would rather the firm at which I will be summering revoke offers from those still sitting on them. This does not worry me for two reasons. The firm is making a conscious decision to keep the class small due to the lagging economy and two because it means that there will be less competition during the summer. I do not say this becuase I am a slacker. I am at a T10 school and going to a V20 firm. Despite going to a T10 school I do not feel entitled to anything and still work very hard. It's just I would prefer to have an intellectually rigoruous summer while at the same time an enjoyable one and the fact that the firm is making sure that the summer class is capped at a certain number largely assures that.
--Edited for mistakes attributable to a long day
216: Even with the edits, you're still an atrocious writer. Now I understand why anyone with a brain and social skills at my T20 school is competitive with students like you for top firm jobs.
Akin Gump NY is pulling offers.
Any news on Bratislava offices?
216: I just called your mom and accepted her offer.
211: I received the same letter from Ropes & Gray NY (interviewed with them over a month ago). However, I'm not holding my breath.
Akin LA is pulling as well.
Akin NY is rescinding before the 45 day deadline. Ropes & Gray is not.
Ropes takes on many, many summers and first years. They are very bottom heavy. They don't "lay off" people, but push them out. Voluntary, I guess. Ha.
This has no effect on me personally because I have already accepted an offer for next summer and politely declined other. I just think that sitting on multiple offers at this point in the hiring season is the height of douchebaggery. Make up your mind and stop bitching. For the love of God, it really isn't that difficult. This is what we do as lawyers, we make decisions, sitting around pissing and moaning is not accomplishing anything. I'm just sick of hearing it.
If you have an offer at Cooley Boston, pray to God that it gets revoked. That place is a hell hole.
216, I suggest taking a high school grammar class before the summer...and focus on learning what a "comma" is....
216, I suggest taking a high school grammar class before the summer...and focus on learning what a "comma" is....
A Ropes partner told me in 5 years, they want their nyc officer the same size as their boston office, so i'd imagine they're aggressively hiring in nyc at least.
229- I've heard people say this about other firms; it is realistic for ANY firm to be "growing" their New York office right now?
227/228 - I suggest hitting "post comment" only once.
I would think a banking/investment banking practice in NY would be in trouble, but practices in industries with a heavy regulatory overlay (especially with the Dems about to be in power, in Congress at a minimum), as well as bankruptcy and litigation (especially IP) should be fine in NY. I think the Lathams, K&E's and Ropes of the world could very well be growing in NY, among others.
I am considering 3 firms. 2 of them have told me (after I asked) that they think they will be a bit oversubscribed (and thus cannot guarantee offers for all the summers), whereas the 3rd firm says it is on track in terms of class # and even if they go over a little, will make it work in terms of having enough offers for the summers. Basically, the first 2 firms sound like they're freaking out about how they may have too many summers, and the 3rd firm is acting like they gave less offers anyway and are not too worried about that situation. Would it be wise to go with the 3rd firm for this reason? Prestige, location, etc being equal. I liked the people at the first 2 firms more, but I'm wondering if likelihood of securing an offer should be my top criteria.
233 - the first two firms are telling you the truth. There is no way to know whether the third firm is being candid. Wake up and smell the latte. No firm knows what the heck the situation will be next summer and the assurance you receive now is charming and perhaps well intended but completely worthless.