crickets

Part the Fourth? What the fuck does that mean?

Dickstein DC is calling and practically rescinding an offers. They are warning their outstanding offers that they could not guarantee post-summer employment if they accepted the offer.

last.

i wondered about those commentators last week if they were in fact just egging other on. if they had not, in fact, already accepted their OWN offers, but were pretending not to have by way of egging others on to crash and burn.

b/c it is so clearly cataclysmically stupid to sit on your offers in this environment. what, did you make some kind of bet not to accept until the DOW gets down to 7000?

Elie:
What the hell are you talking about? Are you honestly saying that firms are going to 1. Keep track of how long it took every offeree to respond; and 2. Use that length of time to determine who should get permanent offers?
One might think that those who are waiting to decide would be the MOST desirable candidates, since if they have multiple offers it is likely they have a strong record.

"Would you expect people to accept an offer from Harvard Law over Columbia so the Columbia waitlisted people can get into CLS?" No, moron, that's not the reason. You accept an offer from Harvard because if you get into Harvard, you don't need to go to Columbia.

a firm's promise to give 100% offers at the end of the summer: credible in this climate?

Part the Fourth? Is that a reference to your belly rolls?

a firm's promise to give 100% offers at the end of the summer: credible in this climate?

Part the Fourth? What the fuck does that mean?

Elie,

There seems to be a lot of chatter on the boards with interest about V&E. Is there anyway you can follow up with that firm to see what the situation is over there? The general gist of the comments are that a lot of students think they might be getting oversubscribed due to the fact that Baker Botts no offered so many summer associates last year and students don't want to go there.

Anyways, I think this is a tip worth following up on.

Has anyone heard about Morgan Lewis (PA) announcing no associate bonuses for '08? I was going to accept an offer in NYC, but it sounds like ML is in bad shape.

I agree with this advice. From the point of view of an attorney at a law firm that is still trying to sell some candidates while letting others go cold -- accept now before you lose your spot. Also, if the firm isn't calling you and is, instead, waiting for you to call them to accept/decline -- that should be a head's up that they are secretly hoping that you decline and you are behind the ball game. Waiting any longer in that scenario is a bad move all around.

I don't think any promises are credible right now. Who knows what happens between now and Summer 2009. It is unrealistic for BigLaw firms to make any such promises.

Has anyone heard about Morgan Lewis - Philadelphia announcing no associate bonuses for '08? I was going to accept an offer in NYC, but it sounds like ML is in bad shape.

a) sa offers aren't firm offers. Sitting on them isn't a "right." The can be REVOKED (not rescinded) at any time.

b) the quickness with which an offer is accepted probably means nothing 10 months from now when it's decision time about which SAs get a full-time offer. That's likely more dependent on performance and firm need than anything else...at least at a firm I would like to work at. A firm that makes full-time hiring decisions based on the relative quickness of offer acceptance ought to go down with the rest of the economy.

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1202425529692

Keep sitting on your offer!

I agree with this advice. From the point of view of an attorney at a law firm that is still trying to sell some candidates while letting others go cold -- accept now before you lose your spot. Also, if the firm isn't calling you and is, instead, waiting for you to call them to accept/decline -- that should be a head's up that they are secretly hoping that you decline and you are behind the ball game. Waiting any longer in that scenario is a bad move all around.

7 is shitting his pants right now cause of what an arrogant dumbass he knows he's been.

Guys at my high school used to Part the Fourth all the time. It was no big deal.

When a firm no-offers you at the end of the summer, do you still get your PEANUTS and CHEESE?

17--I don't see why anybody would want to work in Philadelphia over NYC.

how good of a firm do you have to be at in order to not worry about chunks of the class getting no-offered next summer? V-10? V-5?

24 -- Philies. WHY CAN'T US?

21:

It has nothing to do with arrogance. It has to do with a firm I particularly want (in a different market) taking FOREVER to respond.
But agreed, I am shitting my pants. Once I hear back from this firm either way, I will be promptly accepting an offer.

14/17: i'm not at MLB, but your repeated posting is the first i've heard of such a thing. i doubt that Morgan would just skip bonuses.

19--Great link!

Elie--the link that 19 provided needs its own thread. Think you can handle that?

Law students never cease to amaze me ... always remember this, you are never as good as you think you are.

What does it mean to sit on an offer?

As in the letter?

-nervous t-10 1L

COULD SOMEONE PLEASE ANSWER 23? GOOD GOD!

how good of a firm do you have to be at in order to not worry about chunks of the class getting no-offered next summer? V-10? V-5?

"Sitting on offers is your right. You earned them; others didn't. End of story. You worked hard on the LSAT, in class, and on tests, and you proved to multiple firms that you're capable of doing good work."

What a dumbass. You couldn't create a social system out of people like that. You'd have all parasites and no hosts. I wish I could be there when he discovers in life that the tests aren't machine graded.

25 -- vault has nothing to do with that. in fact, firms like cravath/s&c -- with their bloated hiring lately -- are more likely to no-ffer SAs than, say, williams * connolly or munger.

17 - Morgan Lewis will always give crappy bonuses, but they will still give them. Friends in Philly said the firm had a good year.

Law students never cease to amaze me ... always remember this, you are never as good as you think you are.

"The people who have already accepted, are already part of the "team," they have a leg up on the 2009 summer competition. Those kids have already shown their firms that they are excited to be there."

The only people who know who has accepted their offers are recruiters or the people on the recruiting team. They are not necessarily the ones making the decisions about whether extend an offer to these candidates after their summer, that job belongs to the partners who give them work.

What does it mean to sit on an offer?

As in the letter?

-nervous t-10 1L

I'm nervous about something.

-nervous t-10 1L

I'm nervous about something.

-nervous t-10 1L

17: agreed. stay in NYC. don't come to Philly; it's terrible here. absolutely awful...atrocious, really.

There are repeated comments that Baker Botts no-offered a large portion of their summer class in 2008. I haven't seen any real numbers. Does anyone have these numbers - especially in Dallas?

NYC to 190?

NYC to 190?

I'm nervous about SkaddenDC trimming costs.

-nervous t-10 1L

18, let's put aside what the law is for a moment and ask a more basic question... when a firm sends out a letter that says "We WILL hold your offer open until Friday, October 24, which is 45 days from the date of this letter," (emphasis added) isn't there a fundamental fairness issue at work?

The problem here is that as more and more people accept before you, the more likely that the firm will revoke your offer. Revocation of an offer is completely legitimate until it is accepted unless it is an option contract. I don't think anyone here gave any consideration to keep their offer open.

7 and 38: Sitting on an offer does *not* say "I have so many offers b/c I am awesome and need time to make a careful, thoughtful decision." It says "i'm really really hoping for a better offer but i do not have one so i'm keeping you on the hook and desperately hoping i don't have to accept."

this is going to be a year with oversubscribed classes as the economy tanks and firms are hoping to have their smaller class sizes UNDER-subscribed as is. do you really think that the hiring partners aren't monitoring carefully how full the class is???

i don't think anybody could be that pigheaded and naive. i think you're deliberately trying to spread bad advice in an attempt to make yourselves look good in contrast to those that take the bad advice.

morgan lewis is a hell hole.

V&E??????????????????????????????????

what? sitting on offers right now is obviously stupid behaviour. but RESCINDING offers is extremely shady, unprofessional behaviour. don't yell at 2Ls for being stupid, yell at these law firms for being shady and unprofessional.

3, 10, and 11 - Some books - Tess of the d'Urbervilles is one example - are divided into "Chapter the First", "Chapter the Second" usw instead of Chapter 1, Chapter 2 usw.

V&E??????????????????????????????????

There have been NO announcements about MLB bonuses. In fact, all the partners are at the annual meeting so there in no one in Philly to make any announcements. That said, MLB typically screws associates with bonuses, especially when they don't think the associates have anywhere to go (e.g. this market).

-MLB Assoc.

Why does ATLs comment program suck balls? Seriously, it must be the worst commenting platform on the entire planet. Even in the beginning of the internet, there weren't these kinds of problems in simply posting a Goddamn comment. I used to like to read comments, but now I sift through a thread of 50 comments, 40 of which are repeat posts of previous comments because the program sucks and people hit "post" multiple times.

And, I'm done. Too annoying anymore, so good luck ATL, though I doubt you'll even exist 6 months from now.

I'm nervous.

-nervous t-10 1L

MLB to 500k league minimum!

bonuses? be happy if there isn't a 20% across the board pay cut

Just got a call withdrawing my offer to work as an operator at 1-800-LAWYERS.

-Alberto Gonzales

47 - Life isn't fair. Law firms are businesses and they have to make business decisions. I'm not saying I like it, but unfortunately, that is the way it is. As law students we are expendable cogs in the great BigLaw machine. Taking a cavalier attitude about your offers (and this comment is not directed at you 47, but at people who are bragging about sitting on 5 offers) will likely end up biting you in the ass.

"I will still offers to fall back on" - Elie's bad grammar is is contagious...

V&E has been shedding associates for several weeks. Locke Lord Bissell Dallas and Houston are hemorrhaging pretty bad too.

56 -- YES!!! why can't atl figure out what a billion other websites figure out everyday? Is it so hard to develop a workable comments function?

Biglaw to unemployment!

PEANUTS?????????????????? CHEESE?????????????????????

2Ls who are sitting on offers because you are waiting to hear back from your "first" choice - come on people. Try to be a little more realistic. You already would have an offer from that firm if they really wanted you. Make your decision based on the offers you have and then be thankful that you (probably) have a job come May 2009.

MLB only screws associates in Philly, because they can. MLB NY always follows the market leaders.

Even I wouldn't accept an offer from Morgan Lewis.

-nervous t-10 1L

"I will still offers to fall back on" - Elie's bad grammar is is contagious...

27 - Shitbrains, the firm taking FOREVER to respond is probably waiting on a bunch of students that are better than you to get back to them. If these people accept they probably won't need your services. By that point things might get even worse with the economy and the offers you are sitting on right now might also be pulled. Stop shitting your pants and accept an offer.

61, 47 here.

I agree completely that taking a cavalier attitude on offers will bite students in the ass (I've accepted an offer). All that I'm saying is that this is a symptom of a bigger problem with honesty and transparency in law firms.

Some firms saw the shit beginning to hit the fan in August... more should have.

I think that at some point during his childhood Elie Mystal was probably raped by an angry gang of lettuce and carrots thus making him very uneasy around vegetables as an adult.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/gallery/101508_lawyers/

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/gallery/101508_lawyers/

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/gallery/101508_lawyers/

Thank you 53. I think I would be less annoyed with the grammar and spelling nazis if a) their corrections were actually correct a majority of the time or b) they didn't constantly expose a laughable inability to identify e.g. idioms/literary references. Do they realize how dumb they sound. This is a blog. I agree the typos are distracting, but when I see people wagging their fingers at the *correct* usage of words and phrases like "dread" and "part the fourth" I think "ha ha funny/clever, Elie" and "this commenter d-bag hasn't, you know, read _a_ book." Just my take.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/gallery/101508_lawyers/

68 - Really? I heard Philly controls bonuses for the entire firm and are really cheap. Otherwise, I've heard great things about MLB NYC.

-14/17

Stop your bitching about deserving a better job. Be happy you have anything.

-Unemployed iBanker

I don't know who controls bonii, but MLB NYC matches market, and MLB had a great year. And what you've heard about MLB NYC is true.

Come on Elie, lets get with it and do a report on everything we are hearing about V&E

I'm nervous about MLB.

-nervous T-10 1L

Just got a call withdrawing my offer to work as an operator at 1-800-LAWYERS.

-Alberto Gonzales

My suggestion is for 2Ls with multiple offers to ACCEPT EVERY OFFER YOU HAVE.

If you're waiting for your first pick to answer, accept the offers you have, and if that other firm takes you, withdraw your acceptance to the other firms. Or, if you're worried about the legal climate 8 months from now, wait to cancel until right before the summer starts, so you know that the summer program (and the firm itself) are still there.

Fair is fair. What's NALP going to do to you?

What about the non-TX offices of V&E??

V&E has been shedding associates for several weeks. Locke Lord Bissell Dallas and Houston are hemorrhaging pretty bad too.

Shady and unprofessional wouldn't be the words I would use to describe withdrawing offers but I can see the point of those who would. I'd use, in many cases, "economically necessary." We may be heading for a recession of recessions here; a, if you believe Alan Greenspan, once-in-a-century event. If the implosion of Heller doesn't scare you, it darn well should. "Professionalism" is a luxury that these businesses cannot, or choose not to, afford right now.

I was in the market for quite some time and I agree with the advice that holding out for the best offer is lunacy in this unique climate. If you think you are the best of the best, then you should have gotten the best of the offers right away. If you didn't get those offers, you are simply rolling the dice. The old rules do not apply any more and the new rules have yet to be written.

Finally, to anyone who thinks that only the recruiters know when offers are accepted, wake up! The recruiters are being called frequently by the partners for whom they work for updates. At the very least, the junior partners in the practice groups who still have room for summers are keeping track and you can bet that they will remember the timing of things come the end of next summer.

38 - accepting early does give you a "leg up" on the summer competition. I accepted early and am already attending firm social functions with partners and associates who will be making the hiring decisions next year. The recruiting folks aren't the only ones who know when you've accepted. I got several emails right after I accepted from associates and a partner at the firm in the practice area I'm interested in and I have actively been corresponding with them. I would say I definitely have an advantage over people still sitting on offers.

Jesus H. Mystal, haven't we had enough posts about this stupid fucking issue?

V&E has been shedding associates for several weeks. Locke Lord Bissell Dallas and Houston are hemorrhaging pretty bad too.

"I will still offers to fall back on" - Elie's bad grammar is is contagious...

Baker Botts H-town no-offered something like 10%

89 - I would definitely say you have no idea what you're talking about.

Major League Baseball is taking a hit for lower ratings in the World Series this year but is doing fine and will be paying bonuses.

IF anyone is sitting on offers from Sheppard Mullin, it'd be appreciated if you could decline it

I'm nervous about being nervous.

-nervous T-10 1L

I'm nervous about PEANUTS and CHEESE.

-- Nervous T-10 1L

85: maybe the most dangerous advice ever, nice work.

90: given that the 99% of the readers of this site are students (whether or not they pose as BIGLAW associates), and this is their primary concern right now, no.

Thank god I just accepted my offer at WILDMAN

Am I the only associate on this board who is actually glad that there may not be a 100% acceptance rate so that these whiny, entitled, arrogant summers may actually try to work hard, remember to spell check and bluebook, and impress people?

I'm nervous about Skadden DC.

-nervous T-10 1L

99: Dangerous? Unfair? Sleezey? Sure. But it's an economic necessity in these tough times. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

-85

Thank god I just accepted my offer at WILDMAN

"It's Friday. If you're still sitting on multiple offers by Monday you are simply crazy."

I agree 100%

The NALP will SCALP you right quick. Fear them.

Am I the only associate on this board who is actually glad that there may not be a 100% acceptance rate so that these whiny, entitled, arrogant summers may actually try to work hard, remember to spell check and bluebook, and impress people?

94 - I would definitely say that you are a moron.

lol @ non-IP.

101/107 - Amen.

I second 85. If you are sitting on multiple offers then it would be a good idea to ACCEPT EVERY SINGLE ONE. That way you can wait until the last possible minute to decide where you want to work.

If law firms can break NALP rules then why can't you?

107: If they're entitled then they should get the offer. I think what you meant to say is that they feel entitled, but are not.

101/107 - Amen.

Can someone PLEASE explain to me what is funny about (1) Wildman Harold and (2) peanuts and cheese?

NALP SCALPS being handed out in DC.

85. There's a character and fitness part of the bar. If you plan to pass it, I would recommend not doing something that stupd.

114 - Nothing. Some of the commenters on this site take "beating a dead horse" to a new and agonizing level. It's unfortunate, but apparently a side effect of anonymous posting.

85. There is a character and fitness part of the bar. If you want to pass it, I highly recommend not doing that.

I'm nervous about Skadden DC and "cost cutting" measures

-nervous T-10 1L

I just want to throw this out there as someone who has already accepted an offer, but who did so only about a week ago after stressing pretty hard over the decision.

Everyone who is getting on other people's backs - saying things like "stop sitting on offers," "accept your offer already," "I'm trying to help you," "don't wait for the firm you really want, be happy you have an offer at all" - SHUT THE FUCK UP!

I'm not saying law students deserve or are entitled to or have proven anything. All I'm saying is many students have worked incredibly hard for years to achieve what they have so far, and it's not your place to tell them how to handle their business. If my dream firm is X, and I've worked my ass off for years to get an offer from X, but X hasn't gotten back to me yet, and I have another 2 weeks to accept offers from A, B, and C, then I'm waiting to hear from X, and I don't give a shit what some internet tough guys (including Elie) say I should do.

I'll live my life and suffer the consequences of my decisions. You live yours and mind your own fucking business.

Seriously, WILDMAN HARROLD please eat peanuts and die.

*nervous*

-nervous T-10 1L

89: Trust me --- we don't give a shit who you are.

Fucking students need to get a clue.

120 - TITCR. Good job.

*realizing i am the most annoying person ever*

-nervous T-10 1L

120 - I understand your point. I think that sitting on offers is not a wise decision, but it is your decision. The point of this thread is to give advice and to express opinions on the issue. If you don't want to hear people giving advice about whether or not to accept offers then you shouldn't read the thread. If you are willing to accept the consequences of sitting on your offers go right ahead. Keeping stupid people out of summer classes is probably best for everyone.

"many students have worked incredibly hard for years to achieve what they have so far..." - wah wah, that just smacks of the sense of entitlement that stinks about you summers. I once was a law student too and worked hard to get where I am, and now, as an associate, I work even harder not to get fired (and to ignore you arrogant whiners).

If I accepted my offer for a summer associate position via mail on Tuesday, and they telephoned me today to revoke my offer (having not yet received my letter of acceptance), do I have a claim against the firm for breach of contract?

I'm nervous about everyone starting to hate me.

-nervous T-10 1L

117 is mad becuase he doesn't get the jokes

120- you're a complete idiot. You obviously have your head up your ass to the extent that you don't realize the catastrophic shitstorm that has is imperiling your nascent career.

I can't wait for "Accept Your Offers: Part 10" to come out. It will blow parts 1-9 out of the water with brilliant, original insights. Hopefully it will be out within 2 weeks.

wow, I can't wait to graduate law school and become an associate! apparently, I will immediately cease to be stupid, and undeserving! i guess the downside is i will become an angry, arrogant, hypocritical asshat who forgets how stressed out he was when he was a law student a few years ago.

I agree with 120. If you have multiple offers, it is highly unlikely you are going to have all revoked. It is really stupid just to accept an offer because you are scared they will be revoked. Do your homework so you don't end up at a firm that is going to offer only half of its SAs.

I'm nervous about Venable.

-nervous T-10 1L

128 - moral of the story, always accept your offers over the phone as soon as you make the decision

128-
didn't you take first year contracts? Remember the "mailbox rule"?

I'm nervous about WGWAG

-nervous T-10 1L

I'm nervous about everyone starting to hate me.

-nervous T-10 1L

18--what's the difference between revoke and rescind?

126 - Before you start calling me stupid, work on your reading comprehension. I already accepted an offer.

Perhaps the point of the first "Accept Your Offers" thread was to give advice, but by "Part the Fourth" (and probably as early as part 2) the point has become to threaten, or at least scare, offerees into accepting their offers, and the comments have gotten more and more aggressive, and further and further away from advice.

I stand firmly by my original message.

120

wow, I can't wait to graduate law school and become an associate! apparently, I will immediately cease to be stupid, and undeserving! i guess the downside is i will become an angry, arrogant, hypocritical asshat who forgets how stressed out he was when he was a law student a few years ago.

142: What?

I'm nervous about the mail box rule.

-nervous T-10 1L

120/141
The great thing about this thread is not that it offers sound advice to anyone, but that it reveals who the true asshats and shitbirds are. I hope you're not at my firm.

Is it true that your palms become hairy from blogging too much?

I liked "Accept Your Offers" (Part One) the best. The sequels are never as good as the original. Just my humble opinion.

120 - I stand firm in calling you stupid. I read correctly that you accepted your offer, I also read that you sat on your offer for at least some time. I was also using "you" in the universal form, jackass.

-126

I work for a major New York law firm that will NOT be rescinding any offers given to summer associates. However, the rumor around the office is that we will be reducing the salary of entire class in proportion to the number of summer associates which accept over the original quota.

Skadden DC stealth layoffs? wtf

rumor is you a bitch

143: in reference to the associates on the board talking about how stupid law students are, their false sense of entitlement, and that they should be grateful for ANY job.
i doubt associates felt that way when they were still in school.
(ex. 30, 101, 127)

The Hunting of the Snark. Fit the Fourth.

I am completely making this up but I also heard that SAs who accept cold offers will be locking in their office and burned alive.

rumor is you a bitch

I'm nervous about all of these rumors.

-nervous T-10 1L

From the NALP Interpretations Page:

8. Exploding Offers
Q. May an employer make an offer under the condition that the offer remains open only until the target number of acceptances is reached, at which point the offer is withdrawn (explodes)?

A. No. NALP members are expected to adhere to the provisions of the NALP Principles & Standards specifying that offers shall remain open at least until the applicable response deadlines. NALP understands that employers affected by economic pressures or uncertainties cannot accommodate a higher than targeted number of acceptances. In the same spirit, it remains essential that students seeking employment have adequate opportunity to investigate their options and should not be pressured to make decisions in advance of the prescribed dates. Employers can manage the offer process to increase the predictability and flow of information consistent with the Principles & Standards. Candidates are expected to accept or release offers or negotiate an extension of the response date by the applicable deadline. Offers which are not accepted or renegotiated by the offer deadline expire.

http://www.nalp.org/content/index.php?pid=24#limit

Hmmm...isn't that essentially what these firms are doing?

126 - When you were going through the OCI process, did you take the first offer you received? Immediately? Has anyone ever in OCI not "sat on [their] offer for at least some time[?]" Maybe some people, but are you honestly suggesting that everyone this year should have accepted on the spot the first offer they received?

120

I am a caricature of my former self.

-nervous T-10 1L

120 - yes

-126

145- what's your firm?

120

157 -- thanks! there you go. now shut the hell up about rushing me to "accept" -- rescinding clearly violates the nalp guidelines, and law schools should punsh any firm that does.

145 -

161 was not me, but I am curious of the answer to that question as well. The reason being, if you don't think that I should have accepted an offer only after carefully considering my options, then I wouldn't want to work with you, either.

120

Today on my way to lunch I passed a homeless guy with a sign that read”Vote Obama, I need the money.” I laughed. Once in the restaurant my server had on an “Obama 08″ tie, again I laughed as he had given away his political preference — just imagine the coincidence. When the bill came I decided to do a little experiment. I would NOT tip the server. Instead I explained to him that I was following the Obama”spreading the wealth” concept.” He stood there in disbelief while I told him that I was going to”redistribute his tip” to someone who I deemed more in need–the homeless guy outside. The server angrily stormed from my sight. I went outside, gave the homeless guy $5 and told him to thank the server inside as I’ve decided he could use the money more. The homeless guy was grateful. At the end of my rather unscientific redistribution experiment I realized the homeless guy was grateful for the money he did not earn, but the waiter was pretty angry that I gave away the money he did earn even though the actual recipient needed money more. My initial conclusion is that redistribution of wealth is only a good thing when it’s someone ELSE’S money being redistributed to YOU!

126 had no options.

161 and 163 (120?):
Of course I would counsel you to weigh your options - I have never advocated here, or elsewhere, that anybody rush into an ill-conceived decision.
I was just commenting that 120 sounds like an asshole.

164 - kudos. That is the best thing I have read all day, even if it isn't exactly on topic.

Just received a call from a DC firm that while my offer isn't being rescinded, I should weigh heavily my other options, because the class is oversubscribed. I was wondering if anyone else received this phone call.

I know I will be harassed for "sitting on offers," but I am still talking with current employees and past summers, and I am trying to make the best decision possible. Doesn't anyone think this decision is kind of a big deal?

*nervous about being a nervous T-10 1L*

-nervous T-10 1L

133, it's not that we don't remember the stress, it's that we realize how much of it is BS. So you worry all night long for weeks about finding the "right fit" and the "best people" to work with etc. It turns out it doesn't matter because as an associate, at the end of the day, you're doing what other associates are doing, holed up in your shared office, working long hours, eating at your desk, chained to your blackberry, and doing work that could be done by smart college grads. Maybe you find a person or two to have lunch with that isn't completely socially retarded. Three years later you leave. The agonizing seems silly in retrospect.

168 - there have been other phone calls like this floating around that people have been talking about. I would take their advice to heart. Your chance of getting a post-summer offer looks pretty bad after getting a phone call like this.

145/166 -

Eh, I'm okay with that. As long as you agree with my point, I can deal with the ad hominem attack.

All my love,
120

A large national law firm is oversubscribed and is revoking ACCEPTED OFFERS in reverse order of acceptance. You heard it here firs.

Just received a call from a DC firm that while my offer isn't being rescinded, I should weigh heavily my other options, because the class is oversubscribed. I was wondering if anyone else received this phone call.

I know I will be harassed for "sitting on offers," but I am still talking with current employees and past summers, and I am trying to make the best decision possible. Doesn't anyone think this decision is kind of a big deal?

164 to EIC!

120, Amen.

172 (120)-
I'm actually warming up to you. I apologize. No reason to spread ill will. No hard feelings?
145/156

145/166/177 -

None whatsoever.

120

Which rumor is most likely to be false?

Cutting SA pay based on # oversubscribed.

Revoking accepted offers .

A school refusing a spot at OCI for not following NALP guidelines.

173, your post means nothing if you don't say the name.

179

I really don't see a firm revoking accepted offers, that would be beyond unprofessional. I also don't see SA pay being cut, though that is better than the alternative.

IMO the only truth there is a school possibly revoking an OCI opportunity for screwing their students.

Mystal is an example that AA does not work

I summered at Baker Botts Dallas and In talking to others who summered there, I've heard of 6 of the 43 getting no offers. There may be 1 or 2 that I don't know about, but I don't think it's more than that. All of the IP summer associates (except the 1 who hated it there and let everyone know it) received offers, and that will probably continue to happen in the future.

Regrettably, Baker Botts (at least in the Dallas office) has also done away with their signing bonus of 5K.

182 - That is wildly offensive and you should be ashamed of yourself. Call him fat, make fun of his writing, etc. But don't stoop to that level because you can do so anonymously.

157 - right on

174 - no, it's not a big deal you fucktard. chances are, you will leave the firm you go work for within three years.

164 = *180* !!!!!

183- Funny how BB - Dallas didn't let any of the SA know that they were doing away with their 5K signing bonus. The first I heard was when the offer letter came. I wasn't too impressed with the fact they toted this signing bonus in OCI just to later decide to not offer it.

I seems that in today's market law firms don't really care who they piss off and don't feel like they have to follow the guidelines/rules they agreed to.

182 - what's wrong with being an alcoholic you fucking moron? get a life...have a drink.

to everyone asking about V&E: there haven't any been reports at UT of any V&E offices rescinding offers. (because so many UT students go to V&E I feel like the school would have heard)

120 -- i don't disagree with your sentiment really, but "dream firm?" that's just sad.

164 - i like you.

182=Prig Talin

Just got a call from a firm I had an offer with to tell me that they were oversubscribed. They didn't rescind my offer, but told me that they were targeting 25, and look like they'll have 33-34 instead. He said it was done just "as a heads up", but it sounds weird nonetheless.

That sounds to me like the equivalent of being cold offered. I immediately called another firm and accepted their offer in response. Maybe paranoid of me, but better safe than sorry.

Does anyone honestly think NALP guildeline compliance is at the top of most firms' lists right now? It is not. Smart firms are trying to manage costs in the face of grave economic uncertainty. No one knows what is going to happen in 2009. I'm talking about major clients a) going BK, 2) getting bought and/or 3) sitting on life support in some form or another. Whole legal departments getting disposed of en masse. Have a little perspective and take a look around. You have the "right" to take as much time as you'd like, but the firm is going to do what is best for itself right now. You can rail all you want about unprofessionalism and shadiness, but this is business. Welcome to the show.

194 and others talking about rescinded offers. It would be more helpful if you gave the firm's name.

157 - VERY interesting. If we're expected to follow the NALP rules, shouldn't firms?

This is 194:

I may have been overreacting to that call in fairness. They might have just been telling me since maybe I was expecting a smaller class, and they didn't want me to be disappointed. I don't know if that was really a "please don't accept call or not."

The firm was Hughes Hubbard & Reed.

I just accepted my offer, and it was all thanks to ATL!

These pretzels are making me twohundredthsty!

174 - Who is the DC Firm you speak of?

I'm a 2L. I'm deliberating. If one of the places rescinds the offer, that's fine. That's how life works. I'll make my decision Monday, but until then, I don't see the continuing purpose of a thread on this almost every day. We get the point; we're taking a risk sitting on offers. It's not like we do it for recreation. We do it because A) someone we'd consider strongly still hasn't gotten back to us after 3 weeks, B) we got an offer 3 days ago and still need to make up our minds, or C) both. I'm C. That said, I'm deciding Monday regardless, as I figure a firm that takes 3 weeks doesn't want you that much.

What's really happened here to the 2Ls is a recruiting morass with two causes. First, firms are having to adjust to the new NALP guidelines in terms of managing the number of outstanding offers. I've had recruiting managers openly admit they are more or less making it up as they go along. The second is obviously the economy. When the stock market goes up or down, usually down, by several percent per day, the business of paying unqualified people a lot of money becomes very dicey. It's not a good situation to be going through, but anyone who's in it is presumably intelligent enough to figure it out without constant reminders from a blog.

164- that's a nice little concept and all, but don't forget how tenuously society is held together by people believing they are in it together. If the gold adorning aristocratic pockets shines too brightly, no-longer-selected paul willl eventually reach a point where he steals your gold and chops your head off. You can argue fairness or whatever, but don't push the angry majority too far.

I know it sounds silly, but if you can think of a single hundred-year period where relative wealth changed this much and it didn't ultimately result in a revolution in ANY society, I'll drop the point.

202, there is no "recruiting morass with two causes". It's the economy. Period. NALP changes? Yes, very complex I'm sure. Nothing but a convenient screen.

Your challenge is to: (1) accept an offer before they all disappear (probably easy enough); and (2) accept a meaningful offer, i.e., an offer from a firm with a business profile that makes it very likely they will be in a position to give lots of offers of permanent employment next August (a bit trickier, but still doable).

Congrats to 142 for finally figuring it all out.

201 -- C&B

201- wow. sorry to hear that.

207 here, meant 206 - wow. sorry to hear that.

7 - How are those candidates waiting to decide the MOST desirable candidates? From a firm's viewpoint if you haven't accepted by now, you obviously do not have a strong desire to be at the firm, which will always linger in the back of ppl's minds.

I'm feel bad for missing out on the previous posts. I got some griping to do.

Idiots that sit on multiple offers are greedy a$$holes. Despite all the faux liberalism in law school most lawyers' greed puts Enron greed to shame. Can we say overgrown sense of entitlement. I advocate spreading the wealth around... people that have six figure jobs should payback any scholarship money received while in school in order to help other people. It's the just thing to do.

What's really amusing -- other than the asshattedness in general of law students -- is the pushback when people are only trying to offer advice based on their own experience at law firms. As others have written on this board, the advice is for you to consider and/or reject, but don't kill the messenger. I missed Vols. 1 and 2, but I think 3 and 4 are great.

Skadden DC is cannibalizing itself.

211:
Advice like calling people asshats? Thanks let me write that down!

Maybe talking down to people isn't the best way to give advice?

some of us might be waiting to see whether certain firms go belly up in the current market!

186, angry frat stud???

214, if you're even worried about a firm going belly up anytime soon then maye that isn't the best place to do your SA at.

203: 19 century england.

please drop your point.

Just got the email telling us to hurry up and make a decision over here at CLS.

218 - post text?

*nervously reads this story for the first time today after spending all day studying...furiously goes to officedepot.com to order 24 lb. instead of 20 lb. resume paper, feels better about self*

-nervous T-10 1L

ps nice try imitating me guys but you should know by now that i don't use caps.

Have two V60 (i.e., V50-V60) offers, but waiting (naively, but I'm 15% at a T10) for a V10 where I interviewed a week ago (and a bit for a V30 where I interviewed over a month ago--not waiting too hard for that one). The difference between what I have and what I'm waiting for is huge, the difference between the two offers I have is small, and the chance that both offers explode at the same time is negligible. Tell me again, why is this irrational?

*nervously reads this story for the first time today after spending all day studying...furiously goes to officedepot.com to order 24 lb. instead of 20 lb. resume paper, feels better about self*

-nervous T-10 1L

ps nice try imitating me guys but you should know by now that i don't use caps

221: Because you're an asshat?

174 and 206 - I have a C&B offer and have not received a call like that (yet)....can anyone else confirm?

174 here, and the firm i was referring to is not C&B. I don't know what 206 thinks he/she is doing, but I don't think spreading rumors is helpful. I was referring to Dickstein. I didn't want to mention them by name but they've already been called out by name (i.e. #4)

For 219:

As we are now well into the recruiting season, the Career Services Office
would like to remind you that our counselors are here to support you in
developing job search strategies and in your decision making process.

Given the uncertain economic climate, and the impact that it has had on the
recent recruiting season, we are recommending that students who have
multiple offers take the time to (1) carefully review your options; (2)
research the choices that you have; and (3) make an informed decision as
soon as possible. We make this recommendation, after speaking with
colleagues at our peer schools and discussing the projected economic impact
on 2009 summer programs with national hiring partners. Although this is
not the norm, we have heard of one firm that has rescinded their
outstanding offers to 2L students and a small number of firms that are
seriously oversubscribed for their summer program due to unexpected early
acceptances.

If you need assistance in weighing your options and making a decision,
please make an appointment to speak with a counselor on our staff.

Remember: after accepting an offer, you must immediately contact other
firms that have given you an offer to inform them that you will be
declining their offer.

For students who are still seeking employment, we encourage you to come to
either the Career Services Office or the Center for Public Interest Law to
speak with a counselor about your job search.

If you have any questions or concerns, please contact me.

Ellen Wayne
Dean of Career Services

~218

Please, someone, give me a SA position. :-(

227 - It is over. Try the government.

227,228 - the government is broke, go to dental school.

222 - I'm not sure I like it, but I feel like I can already recognize the real nervous T-10 1L

Thank god I have a rich hubby.

-127

*nervously reads this story for the first time today after spending all day studying...furiously goes to officedepot.com to order 24 lb. instead of 20 lb. resume paper, feels better about self*

-nervous T-10 1L

ps nice try imitating me guys but you should know by now that i don't use caps

127,231 - "God"

225 -- you obviously work at c&b and are covering up. sorry -- cat's out of the bag on c&b. long live atl!

229 has the right idea

If NYU and Columbia are telling students to accept - use some common sense. I know for a fact that the Harvard dean is very concerned. Remember, we are living in a time when the government is deciding who lives (JPM, BAC, GS, MS), who dies (LEH, WM, AIG, FRE, FNM) and who gets a taste just to go away (WB, MER, CFC, BSC). Think that 2Ls are really at the top of anyone's list of concerns? Those who think that if they have multiple offers, they won't all explode at once, you are delusional. Remember that Monday when we woke up and AIG, LEH and MER were all gone? For law firm offers, that will be this Monday. Firms will either flat our rescind or tell you they are oversubscribed and you are on your own if you accept. Best bet is to email the hiring partner at all of your offers this weekend and find out where they stand in terms of acceptances vs. target. Then pick one and accept by email and voicemail before Monday morning. Otherwise, you are leaving your fate to forces much much greater than anything you have seen. It's really ugly out there and firms just don't have the spots, I don't care how impressive you are at this point. Every offeree is more or less interchangeable at this point.

So, um, if you haven't heard back from your 2L firm yet and haven't done 3L interviewing...

So, um, if you haven't heard back from your 2L firm yet and haven't done 3L interviewing...

237 - go to dental school.

-229

The funniest part of all of this are the tards who actually think that NALP is actually going to "punish" firms who violate NALP standards.

Mmmhmmm...just like NALP is gonna punish students who sit on more than 5 offers...fat fucking chance.

Trust me, law firms don't give a shit about Principles & Standards. It's all about the G's. If you don't know that by now...good luck in life.

Although I did not go through the summer associate program, I can understand that deciding which offer to take may be difficult, especially when dealing with multiple offers. But here's the thing -- these are NOT ordinary times. What may have been perfectly acceptable even two months ago is not now. It's pretty ugly out there in the law firm world right now, and, to be honest, recruiting/the upcoming SA class is not on the minds of many attorneys in the firm (more, we're all worried about losing our job). So, while you may be concerned about which law firm you would fit with or the type of work a specific firm does, understand right now that all of that is incredibly meaningless in this economy.

I graduated in 2001 without an offer (not due to grades, just due to pure stupidity on my part in transferring and not realizing that I would miss OCI in my new school) and it was incredibly difficult to find a job because there were none. Not that there were jobs only for graduates of top tier schools -- there truly were no positions available.

My advice would be this -- just accept the offer that is most appealing to you at this point. If you find out during the summer that it's not for you, either do 3L interviewing, or, suck it up and work for your 2L summer firm (assuming you get an offer) and keep your eyes and ears open for lateral opportunities.

I promise, what is going to matter most to you in the fall of 2010 is whether you can pay your bills (and more specifically, your loans).

Um, I am a 2L still sitting on 5 v-20 offers b/c now I WANT TO SEE WHO WILL RESCIND. It clearly says something about the health of the firm, but more specifically about the likelihood that they will be 100% offering the SAs

I am not sure what I want to do (I am not an idiot waiting on some magical dream firm to call) b/c I liked them all a good deal, there are clear drawbacks to most, and I am not yet sure which I think I would like the most.

So at that point sitting on the offers seems like a good idea to me. . .

Um, I am a 2L still sitting on 5 v-20 offers b/c now I WANT TO SEE WHO WILL RESCIND. It clearly says something about the health of the firm, but more specifically about the likelihood that they will be 100% offering the SAs

I am not sure what I want to do (I am not an idiot waiting on some magical dream firm to call) b/c I liked them all a good deal, there are clear drawbacks to most, and I am not yet sure which I think I would like the most.

So at that point sitting on the offers seems like a good idea to me. . .

reading the comments, it seems like everyone except the 2Ls with the offers feels that the 2Ls with the offers need to make a decision in order to avoid screwing themselves. when your career services dep't and the law firms themselves are telling you to decide--maybe a good hint that it's time to reach a decision. It may seem like this big decision, but for pete's sake, it's better than not having a job.

@213:

"So at that point sitting on the offers seems like a good idea to me. . ."

you say this even though career services all over the country are warning students not to? What do you know that they don't?

I wouldn't play the wait and see who rescinds game. That will have no connection to which firms 100% offer SAs -- the offer rate will really depend upon the firm's anticipated needs for the incoming class of 2010. Given that every day lately in the market is unpredicitable, I think it may be difficult for most firms to anticipate their needs right now. What they WILL do, however, is to try and limit their class to give the best opportunity to give offers to as many as possible.

Seriously, just pick one.

sorry, I meant @243.

242 and 243 - in ordinary times, I think you've got it right. You don't want to accept only to find out your firm is Heller and blew up (or in my day, Brobeck). But this is not ordinary times. In fact, the firms pulling offers are more likely to extend 100% offers at end of summer than firms that are just discouraging people now because of oversubscription. The rescinding firms are apparently willing to take a brutal PR hit now in order to look good come August (when next year's season begins). The firms that are too scared to pull offers and send their summers to the 3L recruiting nightmare are going to get killed next year. If you can find a firm that is not oversubscribed - take that. In fact - test it. Most firms have shut down recruiting efforts. Call the recruiting department of your offers and see if you can get a dinner with 4-5 attorneys, including partners. If not, they are probably not hurting for summers and you can take your chances. Everyone out there who is so confident about the stability of their offers should see if their firms are really still interested enough to make an effort. Probably not. If they are, take the offer. If they're not, you'll see how over-confidence kills. Forget associates, right now partners everywhere are not sleeping well. Nobody can get a loan greater than 50 MM right now. How can you do deals in that environment? And with no deals, there are no hours to bill. Former studs are sweating their future. And litigation budgets have been slashed, so don' count on that. Our clients, even blue chips, are just trying to figure out how to survive (see GE), PE has dried up, and even the top hedge funds are dying (see Ospraie, Highland, Old Lane, Peloton, Sowood, Atticus, Gradient, Ritchie, Tontine, AQR). Nobody is doing anything that needs lawyers right now. So no law firm really needs more than the minimum number of summer associates to tie up resources. Those who are sitting on all these offers and feel that NALP gives them the right to do what they want - let us know next week where you accept and what you lost out on.

2Ls, please take this with the utmost concern for your own well-being in this economy.

If you have an offer from a firm that you would be content to spend the summer with, take it. That firm that you interviewed with a few weeks ago that you haven't heard from yet? You're probably not getting an offer. This late in the recruiting season, firms know they need to get their offers out ASAP to their preferred candidates to get them before they accept elsewhere. If they're sitting on your resume, it's because you're a second (or third) tier choice for them, which does not bode well for getting an offer at the end of the summer, no matter how well you do.

Firms definitely let the attorneys know who has accepted their offers, and the speed with which someone makes a decision does matter. If you sit on your offer until the very end of the 45-day period, everyone knows you weren't terribly enthusiastic about the firm, or you would have chosen sooner. It will stick in people's minds. Plus, as someone else pointed out, people who accept sooner have a much better opportunity to establish a rapport with the firm's attorneys earlier, and so those SAs will have an advantage over you from day one of the summer program.

You really need to remember that even in a good economy, law students are pretty fungible. In this economy, you are extremely fungible. Many firms, including top firms, are just trying to keep from becoming the next Heller Ehrman. They don't care what NALP does to them next year, not that there's any significant risk that NALP will do anything to them. Therefore, they are going to do what is in their own best interest in the immediate term, whether it is "fair" to you or not.

I feel for you guys, I really do. You're going through an important part of your career process in one of the shittiest economies we've seen in a long time. It's not fair, but that doesn't really matter right now. If you want to position yourself well for post-law school, you need to appreciate the realities of this economy, and stop treating this year like any other year. You are in very tight competition with your fellow SAs for permanent offers, and the race has already begun. Please don't overestimate your position and shoot yourself in the foot.

@247: Thank you! This a perfect snapshot of law firm life right now.

To all those wondering how it is right now -- if you have friends who are attorneys at big firms (NOT associates at firms that are recruiting you, they'll just feed you the firm line) ask them what the environment is like right now. It's not good at all. You need to know what you're dealing with to understand these are unusual times.

247 and 248 have it right. This is a horrible time to be job hunting right now, I just started as a 1st year corporate associate and I'm already nervous about how stable my situation is. Take the best offer you can and try to protect yourself in case the worst happens.

My BIGLA firm is cutting their recruiting 75%. Summer associates are simply not worth the cost. Big recruiting costs and half the summers are less than impressive. I don't think we would do any worse if we had to hire only 3L's. Probably do better if we hired associates with a year or two of experience.

My BIGLA W firm is cutting their recruiting 75%. Summer associates are simply not worth the cost. Big recruiting costs and half the summers are less than impressive. I don't think we would do any worse if we had to hire only 3L's. Probably do better if we hired associates with a year or two of experience.

250.

How can you "protect yourself in case the worst happens?" Can't exactly accept multiple offers..

248 here, I'm not 250, but if I were a 2L right now, here's what I would be doing:

1) Accepting an offer now, and working to build connections with attorneys I've met at the firm without being a brown-noser.

2) Recognize the risk that you will be no-offered and will be job hunting again this time next year, so work as hard this year as you did last year to keep your grades up.

3) Try to figure out which of your firm's practice areas are likely to be the strongest in this economy, and try to take some classes in that area next summer. Even if it's not what you want to do forever, you'll be in a much better position at the end of the summer if the firm is going to no-offer people, and you have an edge on your fellow SAs in an area that still could use people.

4) Look at what happened to the would-be first years at Heller who don't have jobs at all right now, and then look at your own financial situation. This is not the year to run up more credit card debt and private loans to buy expensive toys and take fancy spring break vacations. Put yourself on more of a budget and try to minimize your debt load upon graduation.

That should be "before next summer" in #3. This place needs an edit function.

here's a random off-topic question -- would anyone recommend to a 1L that they just drop out now, especially if they are at a lower ranked school (I'm talking 50 and below)?

256, it depends on why you're at law school. Is it because you like the law, and would be willing to accept less lucrative positions for a year or two until the economy recovers if that's all that's available? Or could you take or leave the law itself, and realy are in it just for the big firm salary?

That's not snark, it's a serious question to ask yourself right now.

Thanks 254.

256 - I agree with some of 257's comments about the reason as to why you are in it.

But also think long term. You will graduate in 2011. HOPEFULLY, the economy will be turned around by then and firms may be in a pretty active recruiting drive. After a few years of layoffs and slowed hiring, when the economy does gather steam again firms may be looking to bulk up.

Also, what are you other opportunities if you left law school?

Here's a serious question... what is the purpose of NALP? People abide by their 'guidelines' when it's expedient to do so... the organization seems like a big waste of time and money.

Amen, 260.

any other V100 firms looking to go the route of Heller Ehrman?

thanks 248/254. that's some of the most sensible advice on the board!

*nervously reads this story for the first time today after spending all day studying...furiously goes to officedepot.com to order 24 lb. instead of 20 lb. resume paper, feels better about self*

-nervous T-10 1L

ps nice try imitating me guys but you should know by now that i don't use caps

Skadden DC will be having meetings all weekend to discuss the situation given the current climate of blood-shedding inside the beltway.

Thank you, 261.

--260

Thank you, 261.

--260

You're welcome, 260/6/7!!

--261

P.S.: apologies for the double-posting. I am an asshat.

--260/266/267

P.S.: apologies for the double-posting. I am an asshat.

--260/266/267

P.S.: apologies for the double-posting. I am an asshat.

--260/266/267

204: You forgot accepting at a firm that is likely to exist when you graduate a year later. People who summered at Heller have nothing even if they got offers.

I 'm so happy about all of this! I'm a biglaw associate and am so pleased that we'll have a justifiable reason to not give all summers offers. The arrogant ones should be very concerned.

P.S.: apologies for the double-posting. I am an asshat.

--260/266/267

For all of you waiting 2 and 3 weeks to hear, it is because someone else is waiting to decide. You reap what you sow.

We don't need to hire summer associates. It's a complete waste of money. Half of them are incompetent and we could do just as well with 3L's with less recruiting cost. Even better, hire an associate with a couple years of experience. That should be the new model.

can we have a moratorium on the use of the phrase "Asshat"?

276 -- Yes, maybe law firms will move to a new hiring model because of the current downturn.

273 -- I concur. In past years, a lot of bad law students (arrogant, stupid, etc.) were getting offers. This will now change.

Does anyone have any concrete information about Skadden DC?

276 = ASSHAT

I think there is a compromise. I like the summers, there are just too many and I don't like choosing who gets billable work especially when associates are slow. So I support smaller classes and less frills.

This past summer, we had a 2L who waited to accept the offer to be a summer. It was a factor that was considered at the time the firm talked about who to give an offer to be an associate. The people who note the delay are those that helped bring you in. We get reports telling us offer status for the people we interview. So you are on our radar because we cared enough to see you get a summer offer. We watch during the summer and we weigh in at the end. If you are arrogant or show a lack of interest or respect, we know that too because other summers tell us what you say.

If you did not get an offer pretty soon after an interview, that is not a good sign. At my firm, if we get someone who is awesome, we call recruiting and they get offered on the spot. Other offers go out in a week. We do this because excellent candidates stand out and we know that our competition will want them too. If you did not get this treatment, then take that into account when picking your firm.

I personally root for the people that show me they want my firm. Like many situations in life, it is nice when the feeling is mutual and you can tell when it is not.

If you to me I'm an asshat, fine, but remember that I am where you want to be.

So much for asshat moratorium.

282, 281 here. I used it just for that reason. What does it mean.

I just googled it. What a funny term. I mean it. The image is priceless.

I like the energy group at Skadden DC. They have some really great people.

Is there anything wrong with calling to get an update on an application status 2 weeks after an interview? Or should i email/mail only?

Is there anything wrong with calling to get an update on an application status 2 weeks after an interview? Or should i email/mail only?

Is there anything wrong with calling to get an update on an application status 2 weeks after an interview? Or should i email/mail only?

I think it is ok to call. You can show you are interested and you will get a chance to hear the recruiter's tone of voice in response to you. If you call and leave a message and don't hear back, it is generally a bad sign.

I think the energy group is taking less of a hit than other groups in DC. But who knows how this will all shake out.

face it- most of us are simply screwed, because in the end- only a very few of us are special. sadly, for the most part, we are mediocre and will live mediocre lives, and the way the market is going, mediocre is not going to cut it.

on that note, I wish I had gone to med school.

This might be risky, but it would help you get some certainty:

If you have an offer from one firm but really want one from another firm, call the firm you want (Firm Y) and say that you really want to work there, you have another offer and feel bad sitting on it because you might be taking a slot that someone else wants. You are sitting on that offer until you hear from Firm Y and want to know if you should wait.

You might not like the answer you get but at least you will know.

221, it's irrational because you are deciding your career based on the Vault rankings. These aren't like USNWR rankings (and those, too, have plenty of flaws). The Vault rankings are decided based on surveys alone. A T50 firm may well be a better career move than a T10 firm, depending on the firms in question. (As a disclaimer, I work at a T10 firm.) Choose whatever you want, but come up with a better reason than the Vault rankings.

290, we know Comm, IP, is dead. the lit, SEC, enforcement people I know are busy. corporate is dead everywhere so why would DC sweat that. what am I missing.

294 is right. In my experience, Vault tends to be outdated and repeats cliches about firms.

Meant 293

Law students -- You have no idea just how bad it is in the market. Be concerned. Very concerned.

I love watching arrogant sub-par law students freak out. This is going to be great.

297 & 298 = http://www.ntoddblog.org/photos/atriots/asshat.jpg

299 -- You're exactly the type of law student I had in mind, except that you're not even creative.

The "Skadden D.C. is in Trouble" guy needs to get a more formulaic schtick if he expects to compete with Frat Stud and WGWAG. Having a string of comments seconding yourself over and over has no staying power.

299 -- You're exactly the type of law student I had in mind, except that you're not even creative.

299 -- You're exactly the type of law student I had in mind, except that you're not even creative.

299 -- You're exactly the type of law student I had in mind, except that you're not even creative.

I can't wait for "Accept Your Offers: Part 10" to come out. It will blow parts 1-9 out of the water with brilliant, original insights. Hopefully it will be out within 2 weeks.

I can't wait for "Accept Your Offers: Part 10" to come out. It will blow parts 1-9 out of the water with brilliant, original insights. Hopefully it will be out within 2 weeks.

157 - NALP Guidelines also forbid cold offers.

In case you haven't noticed, the magic word here is "Guidelines."

All you students out there who get your offers rescinded should be happy - at least you won't have to be at work at 2 AM on a Friday! I don't know why I even rent an apartment in this city. I should just live under my fucking desk!

schulte is calling people to tell them their class is pretty much full.

Elie-

Instead of just thundering from the pulpit and copying and pasting e-mails, how about you add some value and string together the threads of the narrative in the close to 1,000 comments these 4 posts have gathered.

1) Nothing has gone as planned this recruiting cycle from the recruiters perspectives. Recruiting is always based on projections of past performance. Except the ground rules changed this year, rendering Dec. 1 deadline patterns useless, and the economy tanked, further rendering all past information useless. Maybe talk to some people in recruiting OTR and see if you can get comments in this.

Firms set their hiring goals and expectations back in August when the Dow was 33% higher than it is today. I had my first callbacks and decisions in hand before labor day. Lehman didn't collapse until the second week of September. Firms knew how cycles would play out with a December 1st NALP rule, and probably would have been able to adjust for the sudden shift in the economy a little better. But they had new ground rules this year that haven't been field tested. The unfamiliarity with how the rules would play out was exacerbated by the financial collapse.

2) Why the sudden oversubscription of summer associate classes?

Why the sudden pressure on class sizes? If some firms are suddenly oversubscribed, is it a 'flight to quality,' or does it mean other firms are undersubscribed? Alternatively, has there been a significant contraction in the total number of slots nationwide resulting in this kind of pressure thanks to point 1 above?

The assumption is that it's the latter, but up to this point it's been conclusory or anecdotal. Getting some hard info on this would be great. Do some leg work!

3) The result of the oversubscribed classes? The Akin method (rescinding offers) and The Proskauer method (Asking nicely- We're full, please go somewhere else...)

So the aforementioned recruiting and hiring departments need to get out of this bind. Akin Gump decided to go for the slash and burn approach. Were they in truly dire straights? Why didn't they take the more lawyer-like cold-offer approach like Proskauer has that's technically within NALP guidelines while clearly signalling to the student that unless they're willing to risk a no-offer at the end of the summer, they should look at other options. At the very least, if Proskauer is your only offer, you aren't left in the cold all of a sudden like an Akin offeree in the same situation. Is Proskauer and firms following this road somehow more "honorable"?

4) Pity the 2L?

Comment #120 lays out the basic situation that's been the case for many years. Student gets multiple offers from firms that he/she needs to weigh. Shouldn't they be allowed a moment to consider? The 45 day rule was meant to give students time to weight without hoarding for 3 months. Instead, law firms fucked up for a variety of reasons (staggered OCI schedules for schools (cough Harvard), staggered Callbacks, the economic collapse mid cycle). Change your tone Elie, emphasize, like others here have, that things have CHANGED. Don't wait to see which firms rescind. That's not an indication of firm health or lack thereof, just an indication of other people rapidly accepting. Don't get stuck in the cold.

310.

I think the new NALP rules allowed firms to manage their classes better. How is it better for a firm to find out its class size all at one time in December rather than on a rolling basis?

Also, the flight to quality starting occurring in 2007 (the last recruiting cycle). A lot of the top firms like Cravath, Shearman, and W&L were vastly oversubscribed last year.

Next week is also going to be interesting. Anyone think that any firms will announce no summer program?

1. If you're a law student with target firms like Cadwalader and Akin NYC, it behooves you to accept an offer quickly. These firms are clearly not in great health and don't care much about their long term reputations, so your offers are probably in jeopardy.

2. If you have offers you're not seriously considering, be a decent person and decline soon, for the sake of your fellow law students in tough spots.

3. If you're choosing between a couple offers from elite V10-type firms, who gives a fuck. Those firms have invested a lot in PR at law schools, and aren't about to be the first firm among its peers to reveal a vulnerability.

Former Heller Ehrman associates -- I just received my check for outstanding wages. Others have reported the same.

310 wins thread and should be new associate editor for ATL.

The LEH/MER/AIG week changed everything. I come from a finance background and was talking with partners at a V100 on Tuesday of that week (when it looked like AIG was going to file BK).

The partners were physically frightened.

Everything they did or said had this awful, gnawing background that they were losing hundreds of thousands of dollars at the moment and they knew the firm was going to lose a lot of work as well. They wouldn't say it, but it was obvious, and their reactions to what I was saying in response to questions about the situation spoke volumes.

This is the environment you 2L's are dealing with. This happened during OCI, after the firms had scheduled or conducted first rounds at some early schools, but before there were most callbacks and offers flying around. You better believe this impacted hiring needs.

The oversubscription is a result of smaller needs and a correctly perceived tougher job market that is causing justified panic among many 2L's, who are accepting almost on the spot.

If you are still holding an offer, YOU ARE AN IDIOT 2L. YOU DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING. EVERYTHING YOU HAVE READ ABOUT LAW FIRM RECRUITING IS WRONG BECAUSE THIS [ECONOMIC SITUATION] IS NOVEL AND SERIOUS.

Was that clear enough for you? If everyone who knows anything is telling you to do (a) and you are doing (b), odds are that you are wrong.

Wait.... I have always hated the NALP monopoly and their influence in the recruiting process. If firms are rescinding offers, why can't I rescind an acceptance. If I have 4 offers and am waiting on my first choice, why not just accept the offers and then rescind my acceptance if I get my first-choice firm?

Two major misconceptions I have noticed:

1) Students think that Vault rankings indicate anything about firms' financial health.

Regardless of firm size or reputation, you can still screw up your finances and be able to mask it during the good times, only to have things blow up later on. Just look at Lehman, AIG, etc. Bottom line: size gives some indication of security, but there are no guarantees.

2) Students think that firms who are rescinding offers are the ones in trouble.

While that may be true in some instances, being careful doesn't automatically equate to being in trouble. Firms can be pulling back offers to brace for what's ahead, regardless of how much cash they have in the bank.

Look, you (2Ls and some 3Ls) are all looking for some magic formula that will give you a clear answer. It's similar to the questions I get all the time about "Out of every 10 students you see, how many callbacks do you give?" Or "What percentage of callbacks turn into offers?" The answer, as always, is "it depends." Firms are going to stick to this answer even more strongly given the current state of affairs, and if you're waiting for some definitive indication one way or the other, I am afraid you will come out on the losing end.

If you have worked in office jobs before, I bet at this point you already have some idea as to which work environment you would prefer. Unfortunately, given the law school model, there are also a significant portion of you who have never worked a full-time office job before. If that's the case, you should be picking up the phone and calling up everybody you know to solicit advice / input, so you can quickly move to a decision.

so who else is rescinding?

316 - You are not the first one who has asked that question. Just think for a second -- who is in a better position to withstand burning bridges?

Yes, firms are burning bridges in some ways by rescinding offers, but I guarantee you, two or three years from now, no one is going to say, "Akin and Proskauer rescinded offers when the economy was in the dumps - don't interview with them." Law school institutional memories don't last beyond that timeframe. Heck, remember that whole hoopla a few months ago over Paul Hastings SF when they laid off the lady who had a miscarriage? At the time we even had people calling up their career offices to boycott Paul Hastings this Fall. I bet Paul Hastings is still doing fine in recruiting this year.

Yes, firm may hurt themselves somewhat, but as an individual, you have far less capacity to absorb the consequences of burning bridges than a firm. You gotta stop thinking that you are in an equal power position than an employer, especially in this economy where everything you do will be vetted with a microscope. It doesn't hurt firms much to hire one less person - in fact, they'd rather do that, and backfill on capacity through laterals, or ask associates who are slow on work in one area to work on another area. Their well-being does not depend on you.

One more thing - remember that recruiters talk to one another. We have heard plenty of stories before about summer associates screwing up his relationship with Firm A, and then getting his offer for Firm B rescinded also.

Anyone have any info on Cadwalader? I know their reputation has taken a hit, but are they in dire financial straights right now?

Echo 320-
I ultimately declined my CWT offer, but now I'm having second thoughts; maybe they already made the moves they needed to make to ensure longer-term health, and maybe CWT would have been a safer bet than the firm I chose (which has not, to my knowledge, engaged in mass-layoffs, nor has it rescinded any summer offers)

310 and 311: It is not a "flight to quality" that caused certain firms now to be oversubscribed -- it is because many (indeed, all) firms have reduced their summer class sizes. There are fewer chairs to sit in, and the music is about to stop. If you think that any law firm in this country is going to oversubscribe its summer program and then simply suck it up, you are an idiot. Work on the assumption that if the choice is between reduced partner income or reduced associate salary expense, the partners will choose to protect their families and not yours every time. This means that current associates will lose jobs and fewer replacements will be hired, even if it means no-offering more summer associates than in the past. This is called capitalism, and this is the risk of being in the working class and not the ownership class.

Doesn't NALP actually permit firms in certain circumstances to rescind offers? Why do we assume that firms do not have that right under NALP?

I really don't understand why anyone thinks the firms care so much about NALP. One of my offer letters (from a V50 firm) didn't say anything about the date by which I should respond. I called the recruiting director and asked about it, expecting to hear "45 days from which the offer was made." Instead, he pointedly said, "as soon as you've made a decision."
At my non-T50 law school, I get the sense that OCS has to practically beg some of these firms to come to campus (the OCS people call it "outreach"). Beggars can't be choosers - my law school is not going to start telling firms not participate in OCI because of past NALP Guidelines violations.

322, I assure you that all firms have not reduced their summer sizes. In some cases (particularly firms with heavy exposure to certain practice groups), firms are growing.

Serious question: when I called firms to tell them that I would not be accepting their offers, the recruiter/atty that I was talking to would ask me what firm/office I had decided on. I declined all of the offers very politely/respectfully, but is there a possibility that the rejected firms will try to mess with my standing at the firm I will be summering at?

325-
Tell me more, you tease. Sersiously. I mean, what you're saying is intuitive with respect to firms with well-regarded bankruptcy practices, but what other practice areas?

326 - I think firms just like to keep track of who is "beating" them out for students. I can't imagine them trying to tarnish your reputation at the firm you have chosen.

326 - No self-respecting firm would try to sabotage you, and no self-respecting firm would listen / pay attention to such sabotage. 328 is right - they are just trying to figure out which firm(s) they are competing against.

327, 325 here... IP is another, as is SOME litigation

309-

Has anyone else heard this about Schulte?

You guys are so screwed .

Why does everyone think next Monday or next week will be the time that more firms rescind? I don't get how its any different that last week.

325/330-
what about energy?

327 et al. -

Most firms are already looking ahead to late-2010, when the perennial posters of this blog will actually hit the payroll. Summer class expenses are a long-term investment and relative drop in the bucket. I am told (admittedly second-hand) that several NYC firms deliberately under-subscribed their 2008 summer class in anticipation of lingering lean times late-2009. Unless a firm is perilously near the brink (in which case, look elsewhere), its class size won't fluctuate wildly next summer.

333:
This doesn't exactly address your question, I have a couple of observations. Caveat, I am a 2L.

These ATL threads are, for better or for worse, probably affecting the whole predicament. I'm not suggesting that anything a 2L says here is going to be dispositive to a firm that is trying to make a sound business decision. But I do think there are people who post on this thread who a) actually know what they're talking about b) have input into the hiring process at their firm.

I know for a fact that recruiting staff AND attorneys on hiring committees read these posts. I know this because, when recently trying to decide between my offers, a hiring comittee member mentioned discussions about her firm on ATL.

It also seems to me that these threads have, again, for better or for worse, made an impression on various OCS personnel. Look back at the OCS letters to students posted on this site. I forget which was the first one (Penn?), but if you read them all, you'll notice that they all use essentially the same language referring to vague reports of firms rescinding offers, or "one student" having his offer rescinded. This is ground zero of the rumor mill, and obviously what's happening is that OCS folks are one by one responding to the the concerns reported to them by their own students, but also to concerns posted ON THIS SITE.

So, having observed that 1) people of consequence read these posts and 2) OCS folks have gotten into the game over the past week, this combination of factors could conceivably be exacerbating the lawfirm landscape change that we have been seeing.

334 -Because the offers have rolling explosion dates, which means that at least some offerees at every firm will have to make a decision next week. Combine that with the psychological effect of knowing that firms are rescinding means that more firms will likely see their last remaining seats snapped up.

317- Your point #2 is excellent and deserves discussion in Elie's next post.

322- You're dead on about the musical chairs. But right now the "reduction in summer class size" is based reading between the lines, ATL comments, and old news about places like Dorsey & Whitney canceling it's summer program in NYC. I want to see a follow up on this with some larger players. If Skadden cuts it class size in NY from 150 to 120, or White & Case slashing it's program size to make up for last year's oversized class, that's going to be a bigger deal. But Elie and the ATL crew needs to get on the horn and try to squeeze this info out of someone - whether it's anonymous tipsters at the firms on recruiting committees, career services staff who are in the loop, etc. And if no one's talking, report on that.

This is still the best industry news outlet that doesn't toe the line put out by managing partners.

-310

334, 325 here again- Energy is weird practice area because it's tough to figure out how much of the recent boom in energy practices was due to energy prices, which have now abated somewhat. That said, if I ran the zoo (and believe me, I don't), I'd continue expanding my energy practice, as I think the volatility in energy prices is here to stay, and that'll keep demand relatively strong.

The interesting thing with energy is you can roughly divide it into 'corporate' and regulatory/litigation. On the corporate side, I don't think much growth will occur through hiring, since corporate work in general has dried up some, and I don't know how much firms will look to law students for growth in regulatory. Energy regulation is tough to learn, and I think it's an area where experience is really valuable.

How's that for a big "I don't know?"

I would add to 336's observations (3) people who enjoy inciting panic also post here. What fun.

Some of this nonsense is thinly veiled (332) and some is passed off as informed opinion.

Bottom line (for recruiters and candidates alike), take this anonymous "advice" for what it's worth: next to nothing. Talk to your friends and career services folks. They're less likely to lie to your face and enjoy watching you unspool as a result.

337 - White and Case said they were reducing the size of their summer program, as did Shearman.

What effect does this discussion have on URMs?

Even in an economic downturn, if a firm HAS to no-offer candidates but only has 3 URMs in a class of 110 how likely is it that one of their URMs will be one of the ones to go?

Shearman's NYC office has made calls about oversubscribed class and encouraging people with offers to look elsewhere.

339 -- There is reason to panic this time around. The legal market is tanking and you are the first ones to really feel the pain.

334, Would you suggest that firms such as V&E with very strong energy groups will do better in this downturn that other firms? That is the way I am leaning and thinking that might be a better place to accept a summer offer from. Plus I just absolutely love that firm and the people I met.

342 - you serious?

342- Heard it from a classmate of mine who is sitting on an offer from them. Top NYC law school.

344-
I'm really asking the same question you are, but with an eye toward Baker Botts. Which office of V&E, out of curiosity?

343 -

339 here. Yours is among the type of comments I'm talking about. "There is reason to panic this time around." Ok. Everyone, start panicking! 343 says we should and I'm sure it will help.

334:
334/337 again- The reason I ask what office is that I wonder how they staff energy work; I'm guessing most of that work is in Houston.

Everyone just take a handful of Xanex and a Silver Bullet and calm down. The more you panic the worse it gets.

what is a silver bullet?

I don't understand the argument that firms won't be hurt by 'bad behavior' since the economy is bad and people are desperate for jobs.

Market law jobs will always have takers. The problem isn't filling the spots, but rather filling the spots with lawyers who are better/smarter than the ones your competitors got. So sure, people might not remember pregnant Paul Hastings lady 5 years from now and Paul Hastings may be able to fill its class with solid people because law jobs are scarce right now, but that doesn't mean that the firm isn't going to suffer any ill effects from its conduct. Seems to me that Paul Hastings suffers if desirable candidates are choosing its competitors over PH because of lingering questions about the firm's economic health or stealth layoff practices.

351 - coors light

352 - You have a point, and yes they will still be affected for what they've done, but consider the situation where PH's competitors are cutting back on offers. Students will look towards PH if they lack choices, which seems to be the case right now in the market.

347, the Houston office. What BB office are you looking at? My presumption is that Houston is better insulated from this downturn because of the energy sector but I really have no idea.

183 -- Baker Botts offered a $5000 signing bonus to the incoming 2009 associates in the Dallas Office.

355-
New York.
Anyway, you might be on to something. I wish I knew more.

355 - Understood, and I'm sure that given the economy, PH's class is on par or better than in most recent years.

But for the students who don't lack choices (the kids that are at the top of PH's wish list), I'd think that PH would be less attractive relative to its peer firms. Same for OMM v. GDC or Dechert v. MLB. None of those firms is going to struggle to fill its class with good people, the firms with bad pub will have a harder time getting the kids that are actually deciding between the two.

I suppose in this environment though, the firms are probably more concerned with surviving and less concerned about 'beating' their rivals.

Sorry, that last post was in response to 354, not 355.

344/355:
FYI, this from the Texas Lawyer blog:
[after quoting the BB recruiting director suggesting that BB will have a smaller summer class in 2009]
"At other firms, however, managing partners adamantly stress that there will be no downsizing of summer associate programs. 'We are planning for a bit larger program than last year,' says Joseph Dilg, managing partner of Houston’s Vinson & Elkins, which had 110 law students in its summer program in 2008."

360 again, sorry, here's the link (article from Thursday)
http://www.law.com/jsp/tx/PubArticleTX.jsp?id=1202425519195

331 - no.

Foley & Lardner, anyone? Haven't heard much after that 43% offer rate stuff died down.

Choate in Boston made the "we're oversubscribed" calls yesterday

Now that there's a lull in the conversation, can someone please explain to me what the joke about Wildman Harrold is? At first I assumed it was a made-up law firm, but then I found out that they actually exist. So what's the deal? Why's it the butt of all the jokes?

If firms are still sending out swag--I got goodies from two firms last weekend--does that mean they're not going to be pulling offers any time soon?

366 -- no this means that they have too much swag relative to their desired class size. e.g., they planned on swag sufficient for a class of twenty but are hiring only 10, and so they'll have extra swag. your firms are oversubscribed.

yes, 366, you're screwed.

But 367, wouldn't they be better off holding off with the swag so that I think they don't want me and reject them, saving them the trouble of pulling my offer? After all, they can use the swag next year (unless they have to change their name by then, in which case fuck'em).

367's analysis makes zero sense. if firms were planning on 20, and only have 10, how is the firm oversubscribed? if the firm is sending swag to the candidate, it means they value him enough to send him some of the swag that they do have.

Choate Hall in Boston had their offer dinner earlier this week, handed out swag (fleece zip-up jackets), and then the next day began the "we're oversubscribed -- think twice before you accept" routine. Awkward.

333 -- Why next week? Here's my guess -- the end of the month is coming, and next week firms will understand in concrete terms that their financial projections for this year are screwed. When that happens, the doors will be shuttered and costs will be slashed even more.

371, Choate must have the largest swag budget (per recruit) of any firm. They gave (pretty nice) messenger bags to everyone who interviewed with them at might school...

367 - Firms were laying out swag in their decked up hospitality suites only a month ago, now they are rescinding offers. That kind of gesture tells you nothing about the health of the firm. More importantly, it tells you nothing about whether you'll get a permanent offer at the end of next summer.

Sounds obvious - but you'll need to do a bit more homework than what toys they are sending to figure out whether the firm is a safer bet than others.

333 and 372 - Monday is likely to be a big day for several reasons. Several firms had to scramble last week to deal with oversubscriptions. Now, they've had a whole weekend for the firm's bigwigs to talk and decide on the best plan. Remember how the Treasury Department would always announce bank takeovers over a weekend - same principle. And, Harvard had callback week last week. So all firms by now should know their complete rosters of who is getting offers. Harvard was the one thing that held many firms back last week. Look for firms to make Harvard offers and give or pull the offers of others. Finally, many firms probably would have started cold offering people earlier but now that it is public that some big firms are doing it, it has become acceptable. Once acceptable, firms will do it because every firm wants to. Right now I can't think of any firm that is really excited to have a huge summer program.

326, firms won't retaliate if you pick another firm. we just like to know who you picked because it helps us understand with whom we are competing.

Baker Botts work has slowed down, especially DC. They are still a player, but not the one they once were. Also, if you are a woman, I would look elsewhere. Firm has a very low glass ceiling.

If you want to work in the energy area, you need to pick firms that are really invested in the practice. There are firms that have a few attorneys and say they have a practice (PoGo, Covington, MoFo, Chadbourne). You need to find places like Van Ness, Skadden, V&E, Morgan Lewis (nuclear), with large teams if you want a practice that will have enough work to keep you busy.

What happens if you still accept a cold offer?

The firm could just decide to revoke or you could show up and be quickly frozen out. It would be pretty humiliating, but if you have the stones, go for it.

everything everyone said about how vault isn't a good indication of security is bs. there haven't been anything serious written about top 10/15 firms at all

does anyone know anything about paul weiss?

Granted we just finished callback week and haven't been sitting on offers, but here is what Harvard OCS had to say. Doesn't sound completely panicked.

Congratulations on completing your interviews this week. We hope you had a productive fly-out week. You are now at the stage where you will begin to receive offers from employers during the next week or two. This message provides important information to help you navigate this process.

Important Information about Responding to Offers

You may have heard reports that some firms have rescinded offers to students because their summer programs were full. While some firms have rescinded offers, the vast majority of firms have not engaged in that practice and have no intention to do so. Use good judgment and take the time you need to make an informed decision. Keep in mind that some firms' summer programs are filling up more quickly than others. If you have any concerns about whether an offer will be held open or any other issues, we suggest that you call the hiring partner or recruiting director so that you are making decisions based on fact.

If you are able to make your decision before the expiration of the 45-day period, we encourage you to do so. Law firms will appreciate your prompt response and so will your classmates who may be in a position to receive an offer from an employer that you have turned down.

...........skaddendcrickets............

381 - no one is saying that top Vault firms are not secure, or that they are going to collapse. Some top firms have been very diversified in their practices, and they are not going to hurt much if at all.

However, to use Vault rankings as one's only gauge, without checking further into the firms' business profiles and how they make their money, would be ill-advised. If you're looking at firms that make hiring decisions by practice group, you will also need to check whether that practice group is sucking wind or going gangbusters. An aggregate Vault ranking can't tell you that.

Plus, Vault gets stale

If you look at Vault's own description, the law firm results are from winter spring 2008. It is a source, but not one that will tell you all you need to know..

If you go by Vault, you're going to be choosing places like Cadwalader and Dechert over a lot of much much better places to be

anyone have info on TPW?

Totally agree with the comments above -- you should use the amount of swag you've received to guage whether your firm will cancel its summer program or is oversubscribed. Regression analysis recommended.

WTF is TPW?

Law students -- if you want to see how bad it really is out there, see the comments on the recent ATL post on the OMM layoffs.

First to congratulate Penn on an outstanding defensive effort this Saturday evening.

391- I assume it's Thacher Proffitt & Wood

388 is right. My roommate (T5) just accepted as a summer at Hughes Hubbard (ranked in the 80s or 90s, I think) but they're doing extremely well, besides being known for having social, fun attorneys. They kept the summer class size low this past summer, so they aren't worried about this coming year. Actually, he said that now that they got a large chunk of Lehman shit, they're going to hire more first year associates.

394 -- They seem to do a lot of capital markets work. That would suggest that business is probably a bit down this year. Just a bit though.

395 -- did he get the right amount of swag? That's the best way to gauge whether the firm is on solid ground.

The only thing anyone should do is get a job that you will have for 1 year. Then worry about fit and all that other crap once the market recovers.

398, the market is not going to recover in one year.

399, i said get a job that you will have for one year. That means you need a summer job that is apt to land you an associate job that you can take for a year.

399, I just called your mother and accepted her offer.

401, you should concentrate on getting a job. It's going to be a tough ride for you!

402 -- it's going to be tough ride for the whole lot. This is so much deeper than 2000.

356: (from 183)

Baker Botts Dallas 2009 did away with their signing bonus of 5500, but are still offering their graduation bonus of 5000. Thus instead of 10,500, you will be getting 5000. Sorry, my post would have made more sense if I had listed this info earlier.