There won't be any jobs available soon in the First Circuit.

Dear ATL,

How are you? How was jumping the shark? really? good stuff. Okay, take care. Say hi to your mother for me.

-Me

How many Harvard students does it take to screw in a light-bulb?

Zero. Harvard students think it is beneath them to screw in light bulbs.

Elie, do some research on V&E please

There is some logic to HLS's thought process, and it isn't just Hubris.

HLS has entered the process so late that firms simply aren't going to be handing out offers they can't afford to have accepted anymore. Thanks to the 45 day rule, which effectively pushed the 'bloodbath' up from late November to early October, firms will have a better idea of how many offers they can make to late schools.

The real consequence is that H students might find the callback:offer ratio to be a bit steeper than it has been historically. Assuming they get some offers, however, they should be safe since their offers will be the only open ones by that point. Firms won't be waiting to see who else will accept since the hoi polloi have already been forced to make decisions thanks to the new rules.

Of course the reason why it's safe to assume they'll all at least get one offer is because it's Harvard, and not Hastings.

Next time do a little critical analysis, Elie.

Weekend ATL - I love it!

Offers were plentiful when I did OCI in early August. For the first time in my life I'm glad I didn't go to Harvard.

Harvard is a TTT on the decline

Why is ATL so preachy?

Report and critique, but please ease up on the incessant bitching.

6:
FYI, saying "the hoi polloi" is redundant. "Hoi" is the plural of the definite article in Greek. So what you said means "the the masses."

oooh! Greek Grammer lessons. Awesome!

Does anyone realize how bad this is? For firms to actually rescind, do you know how bad it must be on the ground?

There will be massive layoffs in January, and I also expect firms to revoke about 30% of the full time offers made to current 3L's. Yes, 30%. It's just that bad.

They're thinking that you should chill the fuck out and shut the fuck up, Elie.

You don't actually get it do you.

It isn't that HLS hopes that people hold spots open for them. It is that even if a firm only wanted a class of 25, they'd take a class of 27 to get two HLS kids.

Does anyone realize how bad this is? For firms to actually rescind, do you know how bad it must be on the ground?

There will be massive layoffs in January, and I also expect firms to revoke about 30% of the full time offers made to current 3L's. Yes, 30%. It's just that bad.

15 = HLS kid with no offer yet

Elie, stop trying to gain e-cred by dissing your alma mater. Your transparent attempts to appear "neutral" are laughable.

#4: Close, but not quite. Try this:

How many Harvard students does it take to screw in a light-bulb?

Zero. It IS beneath them to screw in light bulbs.

Truth hurts, but it is what it is. Don't hate the playa, hate da game. And so forth.

11 - thanks for the lesson in rhetorical tautology! asshat. I bet that line is a winner with all the girls.

15 - bingo.

-6

15: I wouldn't be so sure about that. Perhaps where the hiring partner or other people of consequence are Harvard alumni, which is probably quite often the case. But generally speaking, there is no difference in anybody's mind between a Harvard student and a Columbia or NYU student.

I don't know why some people seem to be so concerned with V&E. In Houston at least, V&E seems to be in the best position in town, and I have heard nothing about them being oversubscribed. While it is true that BB did no offer a few more people than V&E this year, I doubt that law students are avoiding them in such high numbers that it would make V&E's summer class oversubscribed. V&E is actually looking to increase their summer class this year (last year they were actually very conservative).

If someone is trying to decide between V&E and another firm in Texas, there are many things to consider, but the likelihood of getting an offer at V&E should only be a pro in V&E's column. They have always tried to give offers to every summer who has good work product and doesn't make an ass of themselves, and I expect this year to be no different.

20/6 - It is, for sure; the best of the fairer sex are attracted to educated men. And what's more, law firms were quite taken with me as well.

-11

21: Do you really believe that? Is that what career services at NYU told you?

Stick around your firm long enough and you will see that 15 is correct 90% of the time.

22:
Any thoughts on V&E's other offices?

Elie,

Your analysis wasn't as good as the commenters wanted. And your Greek is weak. You are the worst blogger ever.

-Creed Bratton, Quality Assurance

25: I also know that V&E Dallas is definitely not oversubscribed for the summer class. However, I have heard that the office as a whole might be "oversubscribed," but I think that is probably more indicative of the market than V&E specifically.

24: Yes, I really believe it. I would carve out an exception to my theory with respect to the V5 firms, or maybe even the V10. But I think when all is said and done, it will become clear that the first couple of weeks of September was a watershed period, a sort of great divide. The schools that had early OCI weeks will fare better, proportionally, across the V100 board, than the ones that had later OCI. Maybe a coupe of firms will risk oversubscribing for the sake of holding some spots open for Harvard kids. But I would be shocked if most firms find that a tenable business proposition in this market.

22/27:
Ok, how about non-Texas V&E offices?

Did you hear what I said? Firms will eventually start revoking full-time offers made to 3L's! They will have no choice!

29 - No idea. Sorry.

[insert obligatory Skadden DC troll comment]

31- no prob; I appreciate what insight you did have. I love V&E, hoping it all works out!

Interviewed at V10 in NYC. Said they are cutting their class size from 150 to 100.

28, my experience bears that out. I'm in the top 10% of my class at a T20 school, and I interviewed up and down the east coast for IP litigation. I got an offer from every callback but one in the month of August, and I did not get a single offer from a callback in the month of September. I don't think I changed much on September 1...

Anyone hear anything about how DC firms like C&B or Arnold & Porter are doing?

34 - that's either Cravath or Skadden. Guessing the latter.

23 - do you mean that in the connotative sense, or the denotative sense?

-6

36, from other posts Dickstein is laying off associates.

39 -- EVERY firm is laying off associates! And soon they will be revoking offers from 3L's!

24, at some places, coming from HLS is a strike against you. We all want HLS because of pedigree, but we pick carefully because there are plenty of HLS students who have been duds as summers. Too much is beneath them or they are very smart but social idiots that you know you cannot put in front of a client. In the last two summers, two no offers were HLS for just these reasons.

If I get a great UVA, UCLA, Duke, NYU, Wisc., Vandy candidate (LR, top grades, normal), I frequently will take them over an HLS candidate because they seem to want to prove that picking them was a great decision and they serve as strong ambassadors between the firm and their schools. We love that connection and the continuity it provides between classes over time.

HLS will open doors and get you a look, but we don't always like what we see. This year, the look is less apt to be followed by an offer if we see any glimmer of an idiot or tool.

Phew! Since I graduated from Harvard Law School I should be receiving those big firm offers any day now, right?

- Alberto Gonzales

Nostradamus (13/16/30) -

We heard you and chose to ignore you. Thanks for stopping by.

29, what V&E office imparticular are you looking at?

Based on how this year is playing out, I think next year, NALP should go to 30 day offer expiration. That would allow students at the early schools and firms that interview early (NYC) to get offers and decide in time for the later schools and firms to still have something left. And before the early schools and firms object, the last thing you should want is to have everything start early; it will make for more competition than you might want. You might get a second bite when the first round of offers explode in early October and firms might be more open to considering a late candidate.

i'm just an occasional reader here but have been checking in on this Stop Screwing Around stuff because I'm a 2L with some offers. I really don't buy the hysteria coming from ATL and am wondering why they're trying to hype this so much. Contrary to some commenter above, my experience didn't fizzle out in September. I'm top 10 at a top fifty or so NY law school. Got multiple offers. Nothing's been rescinded and I'm sure it won't. These are Vault top 30 firms. I feel most comfortable about the Vault top 10 firms not rescinding, but I'm really not sweating it. They would look so bad to rescind the offers. I know some people think that taking longer to accept might leave a bad taste in the firm's mouth about my level of commitment that's going to affect my chance at an offer come next August, but I'm not buying that either. If the economy forces them to hand out less permanent offers, I suspect they'll take that decision seriously and try to base it on the sense they got from me over the summer which I'm sure will be a good one.

"If I get a great UVA, UCLA, Duke, NYU, Wisc., Vandy candidate"

Wow. Way to lump significantly different prestige levels and portray them as equal. I'm guessing you graduated from Wisconsin? Because NYU is a lot closer to Harvard than it is to these other schools.

36-
At Covington, we are very busy. We don't have a very large corporate practice, so that probably hurts us during the good economic times. But when the downturn comes, we don't see a slowdown. If anything, I'm busier than I ever have been before.

Insert "nervous t-10 1L" comment....now!

*goes and cries because will NOT BE GETTING A JOB*

YOU ANNOYING DOUCHE -- REVEAL YOURSELF!

44 - "imparticular". Jesus, I hope you aren't coming to/at a V&E office.

29 - Well, are you talking about Wash, NYC or a foreign office? V&E NYC had a view to expand recently. I'm not sure what the plans are post-apocalypse, but I haven't heard anything indicating it's worse off than other NYC satellites.

44 - "imparticular". Jesus, I hope you aren't coming to/at a V&E office.

29 - Well, are you talking about Wash, NYC or a foreign office? V&E NYC had a view to expand recently. I'm not sure what the plans are post-apocalypse, but I haven't heard anything indicating it's worse off than other NYC satellites.

where's nervous at?

The correct version of the Harvard student / lightbulb joke is:

Q: How many Harvard students does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: One -- he holds the bulb and the world revolves around him.

44, 51:
NYC
-29

*sneaks into mom's office to browse ATL*

my mom doesn't give me computer privileges on the weekends... it's family time, she says.

*deletes internet history so mom doesn't find out*

-nervous t-10 1L

just further proof that cls is the best school for biglaw jobs

nervous strikes again! i love this kid. let me know if you're ever down in nyc.

The Harvard feitishism on the parts of firms is wildly idiotic. Yes, it's a very good school, but the difference between top ten schools is usually only a few points on the LSAT or .3 in GPA; the candidate pool isn't very different. They should be eager to recruit from all of them, and, yet, branding holds ultimate sway over merit.

BiTTTer much?

DEAR ATL,

We used to be close. You published articles worth reading and daily I read them. I even commented from time to time. I don know quite how to tell you this, but I’ve found another blog. It doesn’t matter which one. You’ve tried hard to please me and I’ll forever remember the day I first gazed upon your masthead. But those times are gone, lost to your passion for asshat journalism. Please don’t hate me for leaving.

Love,
FORMER ATL READER

29, 54 - I wouldn't worry about it. We have a relatively small summer class. I think if we do have oversubscription, it'll be by one or two-certainly not enough to provoke rescission.
51 has got it right - if there are RIFs at VE NYC, it'll be because things have gotten so bad there are RIFs most everywhere.

First year V30 here. I'm working on this weekend. Our office has fewer than 10 fellow first years. There is more work to do than I have time.

Moral: choose your firm wisely.

Elie -- your head must be in the clouds. Harvard's restrained approach is spot on. After all, Harvard students just completed flyout week on Friday. To suggest that they immediately accept offers which they may have received (or will receive shortly) is short-sighted. As Harvard's message suggested, most firms are not rescinding offers so students should take a reasonable time to make smart decisions so that they are not interviewing again as 3Ls. To create mass hysteria and suggest that students accept offers without any thought or due diligence is inappropriate and irresponsible. Finally to suggest that students are safe just because they accept their offers is very naive. Elie, your analysis is week and does not reflect well on the many talented individuals that graduate from Harvard. Bring back David Lat.

Elie gives Harvard a bad name. Harvard is lucky it doesn't have a T in its name; if it did, you can be we'd all be writing it in triplicate by now.

MysTTTal?

HarvarTTT

Why does everybody always assume that HLS grads have a sense of entitlement? #19 is anomalous and does no service to his alma mater by acting like a prick.

61-
Good to hear. I figured that the vibe at V&E (firmwide), and the attitude among offerees, is a bit more upbeat relative to some other firms - I have been following the various incarnations of this thread (as well as the layoff threads), and haven't read much in the way of V&E; no news is good news.
-29/54

Is it completely unrealistic for me to ask someone to give me a real assessment of SkaddenDC? Obviously a lot of what is said about it on this board is troll-ing, but does anyone know how the office is actually doing?

SkaTTTen DC

Thanks, 70, you've just helped me make my decision.

xoxo

69

58, I couldn't agree with you more.

47, chill out, let the guy make his point without freaking out what schools he mentions as producing good associate candidates. Essentially he was just listing a series of good schools that aren't Harvard. Your statement makes you sound both pathetic and sad. Pathetic because you are bringing up the obvious, that is that NYU is a better school than Wisc. Sad because you had to argue that NYU is closer to Harvard like you somehow derive pleasure knowing that you're close to Harvard (assuming you go to NYU cause if you don’t then you’re being totally silly).

-Not 41

Harvard 2L here: what have you guys heard about Milbank? I have heard good things, but they seemed very slow.

71, since when are UCLA, Wisconsin, and Vandy good?

45-

Are you kidding me? 30 days? That is absolutely ridiculous. Most law students schedule their Fall classes so that they have either one or two days off a week for interviews. If you have, at most, two days off a week then you simply would not be able to get in all of the callbacks within the 30 day period before the initial callback offers expire; it is already hard enough to fit it all within the 45 day period.

A lot goes into these decisions, and most students who are serious about making an informed decision simply don't choose after one office visit. On top of this, there are classes and many other things going on that dominate the hours in the day. 30 days? Eat me.

I got an offer from a good firm (but not my first choice) September 18th... got an offer from my first choice 30+ days later (October 21st).

Had I listened to the incessant "accept your offer" drivel, I would have missed out on the opportunity to work at a better firm in a better location.

The number of firms rescinding offers seems substantially less than those honoring the 45-day rule... kuddos to Harvard for not jumping on the "accept your offers" bandwagon.

I extended my offer at a V10 firm for three consecutive weeks knowing that I was not going to go the firm. Basically, I was doing it just so at least one of my classmates would fewer opportunities to go to a really top firm. I'm in it for the competition, sort of a "who's firm is the biggest" competition. Mine is.

I extended my offer at a V10 firm for three consecutive weeks knowing that I was not going to go the firm. Basically, I was doing it just so at least one of my classmates would have fewer opportunities to go to a really top firm. I'm in it for the competition, sort of a "who's firm is the biggest" competition. Mine is.

77/78 - ASSHAT

Since elie is so afraid to actually break a story, we have to once again go to the Recorder...it's amazing how much Elie defers to firm propaganda.

Thelen Chairman Reportedly in Talks to Join Howrey
Zusha Elinson
10-27-2008
The crisis at Thelen reached a new level Friday as people familiar with the situation revealed that even Thelen Chairman Stephen O'Neal is out looking for a job.

O'Neal and 30 or so lawyers from Thelen's signature construction and mass torts practice are currently in talks with Washington, D.C.'s Howrey, with hopes of closing a deal within the next 10 days, a person familiar with the situation said.

The beleaguered San Francisco firm has lost more than 100 attorneys this year, and an internal memo in July assured staff that the firm was actively pursuing merger partners. Since merger discussions with Nixon Peabody died several weeks ago, Thelen has been looking to other firms to pick up practices or offices, according to a Thelen partner. There has been frequent speculation and rumor that the firm is on the edge of dissolution.

A much anticipated all-partner meeting is being held Tuesday, according to a Thelen partner, although the agenda hasn't been made available to rank-and-file partners. The meeting had been set for last Thursday, but was rescheduled at the last minute.

"It's certainly clear to us as industry observers that Thelen has reached a tipping point," said William Nason, a recruiter with San Diego-based Watanabe Nason Schwartz & Lippman. "It's amazing to us how quickly firms dissolve when they get to that point."

O'Neal referred questions to a Thelen spokesman, who declined to comment. Howrey Northern California Managing Partner Henry Bunsow said, "Howrey has been in talks with attorneys from Thelen, and is open to such talks, but nothing has been finalized yet."

O'Neal, a construction litigator by trade, has led the firm since 2005. He oversaw the 2006 merger with New York's Brown Raysman Millstein Felder & Steiner, which has not been widely viewed as a success. Three name partners -- Peter Brown, Richard Raysman and Jeffrey Steiner -- have left the firm since the merger.

Thelen's construction practice is one of the firm's best-known.

It was not clear Friday which other lawyers are in talks aside from O'Neal. But in the San Francisco office, construction law partners David Buoncristiani and John Heisse are headliners. Buoncristiani is known for representing Bechtel Corp., one of Thelen's biggest clients.

Rumors of O'Neal's talks had been spreading around Thelen Friday, and at least one partner said lawyers were not pleased.

"Most people are kinda pissed off that he's spending more time on his own situation than the firm's situation," said the Thelen partner, who did not want to be named.

Litigation-only firm Howrey has been in expansion mode in Northern California, and new construction and mass tort litigators would only add to that.

Separately, Thelen energy partner Ellen Bastier and some of her colleagues are expected to join Reed Smith. Bastier, one of Thelen's rainmakers, is known for clients such as Vestas Wind Systems. Recruiters and people formerly with Thelen recently estimated her book at various levels above $5 million.

Other suitors for pieces of Thelen include Nixon Peabody and Alston & Bird, several sources have said.

sounds like 77 is going to a big firm to make up for being small in other areas

Gibson DC or Kirkland DC? I apparently need to know by Monday according to these threads.......

Firms rescinding offers are news. Bandwagon e-mails from Career Services so they don't get blamed if and when a student gets rescinded and cries about it are not.

82: Skadden DC

36 - word is that C&B intends to keep the same size summer class as last year in NY and DC. Unsure about A&P, but they were way over-subscribed last summer (83% larger class size than in '07), so I wouldn't be surprised to see them cut down this year, or at least take a very conservative approach with respect to offers/yield.

82, GDC and it isn't close.

Back in my pretigious Catholic High School, only the captain of the football team and the President of the Student Body were accepted into Harvard.

The captain of the football team was a racist jerk and Harvard accepted him, but it was no big deal.

85 (or anyone else for that matter) - Any word on how Hogan DC is fairing in this storm?

Can we guess anything from rankings here? Is it safer to hold a V5 spot for a while than a V50 spot?

Only the V5 will survive this storm.

86, Why so clear?

Dumb question: What is HLS "fly-out week?" Do all HLS callbacks occur in 1 week? That's quite a lot different from how we do things in the midwest...

89 - What do you think? I'm not saying rankings mean too much, but when you're talking about whether a v5 firm is safer than a v50 firm, the answer is obviously yes. Come on.

90 = disgusting Skadden troll

The real difference between this recruitment season and years past is that the bottom 50% at Harvard will find it significantly more difficult to find V100 firm work.

The top 30% at Harvard will get sweet offers. Period. Everyone else will scrapping the barrel, and they'll probably get jobs, but it won't be with their top priority firms.

The shrinking summer classes will affect those at the margins. I have it from a reliable recruitment committee member at a top LA firm that minimum GPA standards are rising for schools across the board. While they might have extended an offer to a 40th or 50th percentile student from Harvard last year, it's only top 30% this year. Top 10-20% everywhere else.

11, actually you're wrong. When a foreign phrase is adopted into the English language, it will lose the native grammar structure (if there is one). The "hoi" article does not translate to "the", and "hoi polloi", while meaning "the masses" literally in Greek, is treated wholly as a noun without an article in English. Thus, in ENGLISH, "the hoi polloi" is proper usage.

Thanks for proving the point that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing when used by trolling internet asshats.

-Not 6, but still someone who knows better than you.

95. Do you really think anyone except the bottom 15 to 20 percent will have trouble finding V100 work? V20 or V50 maybe...but I think anyone at HLS can walk into a V100 firm.

96- Is that why we say "The Rio Grande River"?
- someone who could definitely, positively, kick your nerd ass

For the Texas folks:

I have a friend who is a new first year in the Dallas office of BB. I remember her saying that in her summer, they made offers to summers who were no-offered by other Dallas firms they had split with (V&E, Locke Lord, etc).

Take it for what it's worth...

All the people freaking out and telling people to accept offers are the same people who don't have offers and want to snatch up those offers. Only crappy firms/offices are rescinding offers, and ATL is trying to create panic and lead to more acceptances.
Firms already started adjusting, only firms that cannot do business management will be substantially rescinding.

95 has the right idea but the wrong numbers.

As always, the top 50% at HLS will write their ticket at anything in the V20 if they want it. The rest of the class won't have a problem getting a job that pays $160k if they want it. The only difference is that you will probably have to go down into the bottom half of the V100 if you are in the bottom half of the class.

96- You only know that because you didn't know what "hoi polloi" meant, and so you looked up the Wikipedia article, in which there is a blurb about its standard usage in English, which incorprates "the." Your asshattedness is so transparent sometimes, 96.

Anyone who's actually worked with HLS students (as I did my 1L summer), knows that attending HLS (or any other top law school) has little correlation to the social, professional and common sense skills valued in the work world.

I completely agree with 41. In fact, my Boston firm (V50) doesn't even recruit at Harvard any more because we have had so many duds. Although I have no doubt that there are Harvard students who are smart AND social, I have never interviewed one that impressed me in person. We have taken smart students from BU, BC, and Northeastern (just to name the Boston schools) above HLS students who couldnt carry on a conversation during an interview numerous times.

And to all of you who I suspect will write that my firm must be shit, we have a lot of great attorneys from the schools I mentioned as well as Yale, Columbia, NYU, UVA, Michigan, etc. So fuck you before you even write.

104: defensive much?

92: Yes, we get a week off in October after OCI has ended to do out callbacks. A lot of students do some callbacks before or after that week, but most people do most of their callbacks during the week off.

105: he's probably just an ATL regular.

74,

UCLA/Wisc/Vandy produce very good people. Highly driven LR/Top 10% from one of those is going to be a hell of a lot better than "Harvard with a pulse" and as all of those larger universities are somewhat pleasant socially, they tend to be a little better adjusted.

I don't know why someone compared them to NYU. NYU is more like Harvard than anything else - watch out for the ones who are just the degree and nothing else.

106, thanks for the clarification (and for not being an asshat about it, like so many on here)

-92

Even Hofstra? I'm sick of Hofstra being dumped on. We on the up and up, the real HLS!

-Accepted

MysTTTal

88 - I am going to Hogan D.C. next summer, and I have friends who are still considering offers. I haven't heard any rumblings of an over-subscribed class or "cold offer" phone calls.

Where was the letter from career serves at Columbia posted? I haven't seen it.

Does anybody think that Harvard's late OCI is good for Harvard students? I can see an argument that it's not bad which goes like this:

Harvard is Harvard, so firms will hold open X spots for Harvard students.

But when the economy goes south in the midst of recruiting season, it seems like it's a lot easier to reduce or eliminate those X spots for Harvard students than it is to call up a candidate from another school and rescind the offer.

104 -- why hasn't your firm moved on its callbacks yet? I know several people who interviewed there who've been waiting for more than a month to hear from you, some of whom are about ready to accept elsewhere. Are you guys slow because you're already oversubscribed or what?

Breaking news: Harvard to dissolve ... you heard it here first...

Actually, check that, 104, a quick review of NALP has led me to believe that your firm is V60, not V50, in which case I have a different question--are you guys going to be pulling your offers any time soon?

117- How did you figure out his firm by looking at NALP?

rather than rescind offers to 3Ls firms are considering reducing first year salary by 20-25%, that way everyone can be brought on board without too much damage. raises for associates also on hold.

source, 119?

NALP lets you search by city and by schools at which the firm is recruiting.

--118

117, you clearly have too much time on your hands... who cares if the firm is V50 or V60?

41 here. I did not go to Wisconsin and have no connection to the school.

The schools I mentioned are all over the board in terms of ranking in order to make my point. After being in this game for a long time and with one exception of a guy from NYU in a summer class two years ago, I have consistently gotten great associates from each of the schools I named. So great that I am very open to candidates from those schools and look forward to having them in for interviews. I guess you could say I am favorably biased towards them. For what is is worth, I would add Mich, Wash U in STL, Northwestern, Wash & Lee to my list. Not a dud in the bunch of associates I have met from these schools. Can't say the same about HLS.

No doubt that there are many other attorneys that don't see things my way. But I am one attorney with a vote and my point of view weights into that vote.

There is a lot of misinformation on this board and Elie is playing up people's fears. Probably works great for driving traffic, but it exacerbates the panic of 2Ls that are going through interviewing right now.

Harvard students are not having trouble finding Vault 100 jobs. And, just like every year, those interviewing in New York are going to V20 firms (with sub V-10 typically being for the bottom half of the class). Yes fewer people are getting callbacks at Cravath, DPW, Wachtell, etc., but the hit has not been significant.

The fallout with the bad economy has hit the firms lower down on the Vault rankings a lot harder than the firms that Harvard students typically interview at. So no we are not having massive OCI problems.

~V5 Harvard 3L

i agree with 100. everyone else stinks.

What's a 3L with a V30 offer supposed to do? Wait and see if the firm rescinds? The 2009 class won't start until about a year from now. So, isn't all this just pure speculation?

122, the V50/V60 distinction is only worth making here to make it clear that we're talking about the same firm. Think about it for a second--why would the difference matter? Are there many firms that this difference touches?

Aside from the few firms that have confirmed that they are rescinding (and it's pretty much all anecdotal evidence), everyone is just trying to incite panic and law school careers services departments are covering their asses so that students don't bitch them out later for "not warning them."
Everybody just calm down...the only firms that are so oversubscribed and didn't think that the economy might get worse are firms that are going to be in the toilet in a year anyway...

Best posts on this topic are 63 and 124.

what if no one hires anyone? omg111

127- Just making sure you weren't going further than identifying the firm with the V50/V60 distinction; outside maybe the top 20, I'm not sure how much the V ranking matters at all. Sorry if I came across a bit snide. It's been a long weekend.

-122

Did Chicago-Kent and NYLS send out similar correspondence? Oh, I forgot, they don't have this issue to worry about....

No problem, 122/131. No one on ATL over the weekend is having a good weekend.

41 - Of course the top kids from lower ranked schools are smarter and more capable than the bottom 25% of the class here at HLS (whom I assume you're getting, if you're at a place with significant numbers of kids from the schools you mentioned). How is that a revelation, or somehow a knock against HLS? The admissions game is a bit arbitrary, but not SO arbitrary that kids from lower ranked schools are actually smarter or harder working than kids from the top schools. A bunch of kids here are dumbasses, but so are a bunch of kids from those schools. It's just that the dumbass to not-dumbass ratio is lower here.

If you can't decide which offer to accept, here are some questions to ask:

Does the office stock Coke or Pepsi?
Where is your summer associate retreat?
What is your lunch budget?
Can I bring my puppy to the office?
Yankees or Mets game?
Do you offer subsidized gym membership?
Does the gym offer pilates?
How late do I have to stay to get free diner and a ride home?

On that note, any former V&E summer associates talk about the kind of retreats/activities that got to participate in. Lunches, etc?

133 - I had a super weekend!

135, to add to your list with my list:

Should I go to the city with my girlfriend or the city with my practice area?

Should I wait for the firm where the money, people, and variety of practice areas suits me more or accept a firm that's not quite as good?

Should I wait for a city I like, go to a city I like less, or go to a city I dislike where the work I want to do is?

Should I give a fuck about the international presence of a firm if all the firms I'm considering have been growing lately?

Should I go to the main office of a firm that has just recently become a national player or to a satellite office of an international firm? Does it matter?

Should I go to the firm that had nice associates or the firm that had nice senior partners but didn't show me associates?

Should I let the people I know going to each firm influence me?

134, my firm is large and has offices in a lot of cities, so we recruit in many places, including great regional schools. I am not talking about the bottom of the Harvard class. My firm has a grade cut off for HLS.

I agree that HLS has smart people, but I look at the total package and have routinely liked candidates at the top of their game at the schools I named when compared with some of the duds from HLS.

Argue all you want. It is just my opinion, which I considered when putting my DNO on reviews of certain HLS people that passed through my office last week.

113 - I think Elie is confused, I didn't see a Columbia career services email either.

As for BB Dallas, I don't know much about their offer rate, but I know that there were no summer associates that split between V&E and BB - so there was no way BB Dallas gave offers to people that V&E no-offered. As for V&E Dallas' offer rate, they gave offers to every summer associate but 1, and I know that BB Dallas no-offered more people than that (but BB did have a much bigger class and no 1L's).

As for V&E events, in Houston there is a dinner or an event you can go to almost every night if you want, and they spare little expense. That being said, you are in no way expected to attend every event, but not attending anything might not help your case when they decide to make offers. Also, the attorneys are very enjoyable and social (compared to Baker Botts Houston, which is markedly different). As for offers, while it is important to show your interest and make an effort to get to know the attorneys, the only Houston V&E people who did not receive offers were strictly based on work product (2 people I believe) or very inappropriate behavior at firm functions (1 person).

Sometimes I DNO HLS summers just for the hell of it. SAs are all useless anyway. Hire laterals.

113/140 -

I can confirm Columbia career services sent an email Friday evening. If you're interested, the e-mail can be found in the comments of Friday's Accept Your Offers post.

There was a letter from columbia's career services sent on friday, but he didn't post it (probably because it said the same thing as the other emails).

wow..lots of animosity toward HLS students. I think my classmates are generally nice and while a little awkward, certainly not anti social or particuarly arrogant. Then again, I suppose it is possible I am a huge tool and so I just can't recognize it in others?

do not accept Simpson offers.........Simpson is laying off associates left and right

For all of you who have completed the first summer, go to the firm website and look-up any associates, of counsels, and junior partners that you can remember.

It's a pathetic business cycle and many of the senior associates will be forced out. They will take clients with them further diluting the client base for firms.

141- How about 2L grades for those Texas firms? Are they considered?

A lot of hiring people like Wisconsin for some reason...made the Vault list...take that for what it's worth but it's not blatant trolling or WI PR that someone is talking up the school.

Carry on...

Things suck for non-T14 T1 schools this year, though. Cuts in summer classes are going to come primarily out of their hide. Most people who deserve jobs at T14 aren't going to be bounced - although a few mouth breathers might be, and no great loss.

That said, if this downturn accelerates, all bets are off. The modern hiring structure hasn't seen an 1980-82 or 1970's recession.

Simpson Thacher is a TTT.......they are trying to play with the big boys.....they really think they are peers with Cravath and Wachtell! give me a break!

What's the difference between Elie and a Pig?

Lipstick. And a degree from HLS.

145,

First, ackward can be a bad thing. One HLS summer at my firm was so smart, but we really wrestled with offering him. The entire discussion was about whether we could put him in front of a client. At my firm, this question matters because associates get client contact early. The kid got an offer, but just barely and I think he will be under a lot of scrutiny as an associate.

Second, remember these posts during your summer. They will keep you grounded and you can help prove that the HLS jerk is the exception not the rule.

146 = 150 = 2L waiting for a Simpson offer.

153 = 2L who just accepted a Simpson offer.

The reason there's never any news about skaddendc ... is that there's no news about skaddendc. Business as usual. And lots of it.

148- Of course 2L grades are considered...what type of question is that?

141, thanks for the great post.

155, even if the office is doing great, some group is having problems because there is one disgruntled person posting on this board. Which group is it?

150 is right! Simpson is in a lot of pain hence they are basically representing the government for pennies and they are laying off associates........all associates are scared to get laid off and NO ONE expects a bonus this year

Has any firm send memos about this year's bonuses?

Why is there no mention of YLS, which has the same recruiting schedule as HLS? Talk to any YLS 2L or 3L and you'll find that they're having a much harder time there than last year.

158: It's a disgruntled 2L who didn't get an offer there most likely. Or just some sh-thead having fun.

HLSers are no more awkward than kids at other law schools. Stop the hatin'!

160-

Orrick. See here. Might change? Or will this force firms to keep last year's levels?

http://abovethelaw.com/2008/06/associate_bonus_watch_the_2008.php

This was a poor attempt at "analysis" that really just smacked of cheap op-ed. Emphasis on "cheap." You all are getting paid to write articles about the legal community, and yet there are numerous student blogs that are doing a far better job of assessing this situation. Elie, did you ever think about actually reading the NALP Guidelines? Talking about them and how this (emphasis) SMALL patch of firm cold offering affects NALP's standing and authority in the legal community? Frankly, this blog has turned into a bunch of half-rate pieces of literary shit. You can't even bother to spell check before you post. I used to read this blog every day, but now whenever I check ATL in my downtime, my internet browser is inundated with a bunch of garbage that contains no journalistic insight or analysis. HLS is right: it's been about 3-4 firms out of nearly hundreds offering jobs to students. Try thinking about this situation more deeply, and write a column of nominal worth, instead of this whiny, holier-than-thou bullshit.

My firm is oversubscribed. I doubt we are going to rescind any offers, but we don't have room to give out as many offers to Harvard kids like we used to. We are probably going to cut our offers to them by 50% this year. It is too bad for us (we should have saved more spots for them) but we just don't have room left in the summer class and we can upsize the summer class in this economy. I think Harvard is going to find their late start a real problem this year. Not that the Harvard kids won't have biglaw jobs. But they won't have nearly as many to choose from. And they are going to see rejections from firms that their career counselors would have considered a "safety" firm two years ago.

156-
I asked about 2L grades because it sounded like they hardly no-offered anyone- I was wondering if the implication was that 2L grades are less important than at other firms

Don't hate because you didn't get accepted. The HLS blowback is just from places where people wished they could get that beautiful acceptance packet so they wouldn't have ended up at their TTT.

HLS is one school where you can go all over the world and people look on in awe. Take that, suckers! Vanderbilt who? Duke what?

So i didn't get an offer from a V10 firm and i don't go to HLS or Wisconsin...should i even continue living my life?

nalp rulez anyone?

http://www.uvalawblog.com/2008/10/rescinded-offer-situation-or-pondering.html

bosttton universittty

whoa that's a lot of Ts... coincidence?

Elie, your scarcely veiled obsession with HLS and with the "hubris" of its students and alums is hilarious. Thanks for the laughs, man.

This blog has turned into a constant "Hey, I went to Harvard and the whole world revolves around me now" screech.

I DON'T FUCKING CARE THAT YOU WENT TO FUCKING HARVARD. SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT IT. THERE ARE MORE FUCKING IMPORTANT THINGS. THERE ARE 180 OTHER LAW SCHOOLS IN THE FUCKING COUNTRY.

PUKE PUKE PUKE ON HARVARD LAW SCHOOL.

Wow, bitter. Yes, you obviously "DON'T FUCKING CARE"

How truthful are these statements about Simpson laying off associates? If this was really ongoing wouldn't there be more than just a few comments about it?

Yo --- Do these Simpson comments have any legitimacy to them? Give evidence, please. Am leaning towards going there over a bunch of its peer firms (DPW, Cleary etc.).

I think the same person is posting and responding to the questions about V&E. I just wanted to point that out.

Also, this whole bunch of "accepting offers" posts is lame. Harvard kids will get their jobs, other people will get jobs too. Some 2Ls that would have gotten jobs last year, won't get jobs this year. That's the economy, that's the risk you take going to law school. The level of panic that Elie has engendered here is just plain annoying. It would be neat if everyone who posted had to put their school and their firm down before they were allowed to put triple Ts in the middle of random words.

176,

My guess is that the Simpson comments are coming from STB attorneys who got fired for poor performance. They'd much prefer to believe that their termination was the result of stealth layoffs rather than their own incompetence. I'm a 3L. I had three V5 offers and picked STB over them. I am quite happy with my choice.

171 = BC 2L
Have fun at the Middlesex public defender's office.

148 - I think grades are important, but I doubt that anyone's grades went down so significantly that there was a problem. Perhaps the people with poor work product also had lower grades than expected.

157 - Your welcome.

177 - You're right! I am secretly a recruiter at V&E, but I guess not so secretly anymore.

Sucks to BU

HLSers are worse than YLS, SLS, NYU, CLS etc. because we all know that the admission process at HLS is designed to target awkward kids who couldn't work at a firm.

Just saying . . .

The Simpson comments have absolutely no truth to them. They are probably coming from people at other firms, possibly bitter 2Ls who couldn't get a job at Simpson. I doubt they are actually coming from anyone with a real connection to the firm, because they are quite disconnected from reality.

I can tell you that things are going great at STB and I'm expecting market-leading bonuses again this year.

183 = bullshit

Harvard <<<<<< Touro

Let me just add my own 2 cents about HLS:

I'm a 2L there, and while HLS is far from fun and the other students are, for the most part, not very enjoyable, I don't think that other law schools are just filled to the brim with bright students with excellent social skills. The HLS students are slightly smarter on average that students at almost every school, and probably slightly more awkward than students at other schools, on average. The admissions process is not "designed" to target awkward students, they have way too many applicants to worry about that. The students here are awkward precisely because they have such high numbers. Whether or not that makes for a better lawyer at a large firm is for the large firm to decide. And my guess is that, based on looking at the resumes and educational backgrounds of many associates and partners at top law firms, is that many HLS students do just fine at large law firms.

168, 41 here. There is no doubt that what you just said is absolutely true. An HLS law degree is highly regarded and people who get in should feel lucky. This does not mean they are more desirable as associates.

176--Hard to say re Simpson comments. I have friends who just started there in corporate and they say that they are done every day around 5. This signals a lack of work, but I think overall the firm is still strong.

I would be surprised if they had mass layoffs, but I could see them being a little bit harsher with their performance reviews this year.

183 - Thanks for replying to the post. I accepted my Simpson offer this week and I hope that you are right. It's a little scary when Simpson is the subject of a lot of these comments. The people that I have spoken with at the firm acknowledge that it's slower, but that seems to be the trend at all the firms. I guess I will just have to see how this all plays out.

Would it be in poor form to send letters to every v100 firm now informing them that I accept their offer of 2L summer employment?

-nervous T-10 1L

yes

-extremely nervous HYS 0L

At my callback w/ Simpson they noted that it had been slow recently. I imagine its slower now.

186: I doubt it. I'm at Chicago and most of the people here are both smart and social, especially at Regent's, which is where the "cool" 1Ls live and a few 2Ls/3Ls. Whether this social aspect comes from the class splitters or a few hard-working people who had decent LSATs and social skills, I don't know, but it's certainly interesting to mull over.

I do have an awkward friend at HLS, and two very social friends at UVa. My information is anecdotal, I know, but these reputations don't come from nowhere.

Then again, my most social friend, and former class president at my alma mater, goes to Yale Law, so take my rambling late night comments with a crane of salt.

This site has become much more NYcentric than it was when Lat was running it...

The mid-west is where its at. Out here there is less asshattedness in general, lower cost of living, better quality of life and you can still extend your offer with the "i just need some more time" line.

186 -

I go to a T-10 school, and while it is not "filled to the brim" with outgoing and remarkable students - it is surely an enjoyable place where almost every person I have encountered possesses the ability to interact with others.

I have good friends at HLS and I respect it, but people are simply pointing out one of its weaknesses. That doesn't mean it's not as prestigious as many believe it to be.

196 - The point is that lacking the basic ability to function in social situations is a huge flaw for aspiring lawyers. While HLS may have great advantages, this weakness is really damaging for HLS grads when they attempt to function in the real world. As lawyers we are expected to turn out good work product, but we are also expected to be able to interact with clients in both professional and social settings. This aspect is critical to client acquisition and retention. Your clients need to know not only that you can do good work but that you are someone they can relate to and trust. Social ineptitude is just as damaging as poor writing skills. As an HLS grad it pains me to see these socially backward SAs or first years come in thinking that everything is going to be great just because they graduated from HLS. It pains me every time I have to DNO an HLS summer but lacking basic social skills is unacceptable for someone who wants to work in this profession. Maybe they would be better suited for academia.

197: which is why many of them go into academia . . . what's your point?

Unlike business and medical schools, law schools do an amazingly poor job of screening for social attributes. Of course, the cream rises to the top, and the HLS class is big enough so that, out of 550 people, at least a good number possess the combination of book smarts and social acumen to climb the ranks.

I also think, 197, that you underestimate the variety of lawyers. Appelate litigation is not trial work, much like M&A is not working at a custody clinic or becoming a magistrate who deals with 26(c) orders. Despite their dearth of social skills, many HLS types can still find their niche and milk it.

199 comments and no WILDMAN HARROLD reference? It's the ATL community that's gone downhill; Elie is just symptomatic of a changing readership.

TWO HUNDREDTH

These comments . . . they're making me two hundred firsty!

The thought of Loyola2L being gainfully employed by a firm while median HLS students are out in the cold is pretty astonishing when you really think about it. What a difference a year makes.

All I know is that I accepted at a Firm in the V100, and I will be making as much money as the rest of these douches obsessed with presTTTige.

Lets face it, the majority of the people who do big law will be out of it within three years.

202 - just shows to go you that not even the great port of HLS is safe in this storm.

203 - Not when your firm dissolves.

I'm not sure I really understand the "HLS students are especially socially inept" line. Yes, there are probably plenty of dweebs, but it's a big school. I have a number of friends from college who ended up at HLS, Yale, Stanford, Columbia, NYU, etc. There are dweebs at all those places, let me assure you (some of which are my friends). If they are more numerous at HLS than, say, YLS, I'd imagine it's because the school is simply larger. Law students as a class of human beings are not the world's most socially adept people. Top law schools are not immune, but I find it hard to believe that lower ranked schools are somehow havens of social graces.

Amazing how this post revolves around Harvard law school... I actually hated my time at HLS (being constantly around so many arrogant tools was excruciating.. I dunno if they all had social issues or I did... probably both... individually many people are OK), generally speaking, but the diploma looks good. I've also worked with incompetent HLS grads from time to time, not that most are...

To the Harvard undergrads who call asking for money for the Harvard corporation I say my principal is "debt before donations" so they can call me back in 20 years. It gets them thinking before I hang up...

But this is really kind of a disgusting thread in all honesty. HLS is OK, and I'm appreciative for what they've given me, but I would have gone to Yale if I'd gotten in.

This is gonna be some bad crap with the economy... just no idea how bad, since it's just started. If the I-bankers can't make their millions, it's a lot harder for us to make our 300Ks...

Everyone is waiting and the deals aren't happening... can't justify adding new staff now, though there are likely to be some very bright candidates on the market soon...

LasTTT

203: let me guess. You also collect stamps and your neighbor's 12-year old kid still beats you up once in a while?

offer armageddon is almost upon us ladies and gentlemen.

Face it. If you have nothing better to do but to go on and on about how Harvard is TTTT, I'm guessing . . . you . . . have . . . nothing better to do.

That and you probably still have that HLS rejection letter stored away with your other “valuables.”

211: maybe so, but it goes up the chain too. When I attended HLS in the second half of the 90s, almost everyone on my floor had a Yale rejection letter. (and one guy had it laminated on his wall).

I went to HLS and I had a great time. I am very glad that I graduated when I did though (2005) just as the market was getting its swing, my strange interviewing panic didn't do me in too bad. Yes I panicked. I had never had a job before; working was scary. Still had lots of offers.

I worked at a law firm over the summer in a small market my 1L summer while I took care of my little brother (he was still in grade school in the North West). It was very sad to see all the Harvard hate that exists out there among people who feel that they never got their due. Then I moved to NYC and fit right in.

If you don't have a fun time with the people in law school, you attract bad people, and you were probably a loser in high school. You can find fun/normal/well-adjusted people anywhere, if you are yourself a fun/normal/well-adjusted person. Law school is hard. The very least you can do is surround yourself with people who understand your pain. And who you enjoy hanging out with. If you can't find those people, you probably don't know many of those people period, and you are probably an annoying and unlikeable person. Hey, just telling the truth. There are plenty of those anywhere, so HLS isn't an exception.

And no, I am not some strange deuchbag/awkward perv/or even a buttaface. I am a well-adjusted woman, who has always had a nice group of friends, dated good looking men, and had a good time. Law school has all kinds (at every school). It is sad that the strange and awkward ones are the most memorable.

how is all this going to affect uber-prestigious firms like williams & connolly and munger? everyone says that v5 will be insulated, but my guess is that the NYC-centric firms in the v5 will take a big hit, while firms like w&c will be fine.

You are crazy, 214, everyone is going to take a big hit. Note that we will have two good, non-New York firms, go out of business this year. First Heller and soon Thelen. That is far from insulation.

Its 9:15, do you know where your EIC is?

186 - Here is the deal - the kids that go to HLS are in one of a few situations: (1) they know people there; (2) they happened to do well on the LSAT; (3) they come from a privileged background.

I'll give you that most people in the above situations are smarter than your average person, and therefore smart law students. However, it doesn't mean that the HLS kids are smarter than all other law students. A HLS kid at the bottom 30% of the class could not go head to head with a top 25% student of any other lower ranked school.

And by the way - by giving other examples of people who fall outside of the categories above, you are merely proving the rule with your exception.

Actually, 213, if you "fit right in" in New York, that means you ARE a douchebag, at least by the standards of the rest of the world that lies beyond the Hudson.

Still, pleased to see a woman weighing in. This place is a sausage party most of the time.

207 - not being able to make 300K isn't such a bad thing. Obama is just going to take it away from you anyway. I'd prefer to stay under the 250K mark. Not because I think that his taxes will make someone earning 350K and someone earning 240K bring home the same amount of money. I mostly don't want to earn more than 250K out of pure spite. Hopefully by the time I do make that mark Obama won't be in office anymore. And yes, I am assuming that he will win, sad.

217, you are a moron. All that I got from your post is this: on average, a HLS kid will most likely be smarter than a kid from any other law school (with the exception of Yale and maybe Stanford). Your example of a top 25% kid from a lower ranked school vs. a bottom ranked HLS kid truly proves the rule with your exception.

Btw, I go to a school ranked lower than CLS.

I think the HLS letter is a *bit* too nonchalant, but it probably will bear out for the most part. My firm just finished its HLS callback interviews, and we gave offers to almost all of them. However, I can't imagine that we'd take all of them, if they accepted. Of course, we'd probably rescind the offers of the other students who've sat on their offers for a month, but at a certain point, we will not wildly oversubscribe for the HLS students. And we love the HLS kids - it's actually a bit ridiculous what lengths we go to for them.

Students who aren't from HLS or Yale who are sitting on offers that are 20, 30+ days old are not thinking clearly. No more offers are going to come out - HLS callbacks are done. Cut your losses and go with the best offer you did get.

And for HLS to suggest that a 2L call a hiring partner? Asinine. Yes, they have to be polite, but just call the recruiting department - it's their job to talk to you about the timing of offers, not the hiring partner's. He/she also has to practice law, too, not mollycoddle you.

Wow, what is that 5 (6?) posts on the same topic in as many days? Good job old boy.

-nervous T-10 1L

If a firm gave me an extension to my 45 day deadline should I assume that is a good sign that they will not rescind my offer?

222 - way to come in a couple hundred posts late. That comment was relevant near the first 50 posts. We have moved on to other topics, asshat.

@219: Taxation is graduated, meaning that, once you start making over $250k, you're only taxed the additional amount on all earnings over $250k. So, in no world would you actually want to make less money, since the higher tax rate only applies to the amount made above the cutoff.

And yes, all firms will take a hit, even very prestigious firms and even litigation houses. In the great depression, there was no litigation . . .

215 -- i hope you're not comparing Helen and Thelen to Williams & Connolly!

If a firm gave me an extension to my 45 day deadline should I assume that is a good sign that they will not rescind my offer?

Harvard's number metrics over-select for Aspies, more so than T1 law school does (which is alraedy to a pretty significant degree). When you go for nothing other than the smartest 1/1000 - 1/10,000, you are going to get a vastly disproportional share of high-functioning Aspies.

Yale of course is in a class by itself.

There's nothing wrong with Aspies; they're just different. The ones that are focused enough that they've gotten to top tier law schools have enormous potential, both as hard workers and as partners in arcane areas (tax, finance, IP). The problem is that they simply do not mesh well with the more jockey and superficial parts of business culture. It's inherently difficult for them, and the fact that they've generally been ruthlessly discouraged at it since the time they were 5 does not help; it causes further damage and also breeds hostility.

They can also be, um, blunt. You all know the brilliant partner who flips out and doesn't bother being subtle with his assessment of your work.

You want nothing other than the best nerds, you're getting the ones who simply have different brains.

i'm nervous about helen and thelen.

-nervous T-10 1L

It was the best of times, it was the 231st of times! Stupid monkey!

i'm nervous about helen and thelen.

-nervous T-10 1L

FIRST!!!

Why can't we get Aspies to count as diversity hiring? They're more different than URM's and at least capable of being solid associates.

226 - learn to read. I understand that the tax is graduated. That is why I said that no one can bring home less by earning more. My argument is mostly based in spite, as I stated. In fact I am going to start redistributing my tips from wait staff to homeless people. See comment 164 of part the fourth. Everyone loves income redistribution until it is your income being redistributed. Id. (I know I should be italicizing).

How many _____ law students does it take to change a light bulb?

YALE: One, unless it's in the law journal office. Then it's 140.

HARVARD: One: he holds the bulb up and the world revolves around him.

STANFORD: Seventeen: one to change it, sixteen to demand better standards for the one changing it and ranking all light bulbs on a scale of A to F.

COLUMBIA: Four: Two to change it, two more to reserve their place in Federal Courts.

NYU: Eight: Three to change it, four to insist that it's so much more laid back changing it there than at Columbia, and one to blog about the hottest light bulb changer on his Mac.

BERKELEY: Sixteen, who have a committee on what the new light bulb should be named and decide to call it, "Light Bulb."

CHICAGO: None: there's no fucking time to change a light bulb when there's rigorous briefing to be done.

PENN: Two: one to change the bulb, and one to shoot the neighbor downstairs.

NORTHWESTERN: Four, who each discuss how relevant their prior career paths were that led them to law school.

MICHIGAN: Twelve, who don't actually change the bulb, but talk about how much better the bulb will look after next year's recruiting class comes in, and with a little time, this bulb will be great, it's just a little dark right now.

VIRGINIA: Seventy-four: One to change the bulb, one to assault Bill O'Reilly and blog about it, and seventy-two to apologize for the incident and insist that their school really isn't like that.

CORNELL: Three: one to change the bulb, one to insult the changer and punch him out, and one to complain about how cold it is.

DUKE: Fifteen, who all sit around soberly complaining that without Irwin Chemerinsky, there's really no point in changing light bulbs anymore.

GEORGETOWN: 412, all 1Ls, who each put it on his own resume with the line, "EDITOR, Energy and Environmental Journal" for their first resume drop.

236: well done.

HOFSTRA: none, because they are all in the dark and seem to like it that way.

Am I lasTTT yet

219/235 - correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the magic line of $250K Obama talks about is for married folks, and so for singles it is $125K - meaning only the summer associates and BigLawBirmingham are safe.

236 -
TULANE: none - someone already stole the lamp.

239, it depends. Obama's been all over the map. He wants to repeal the Bush cuts on the top two tax brackets, which, for singles, starts at $164K. I don't know what he means by "$250K," unless that means $164K. Maybe he thinks that the credits he'll give to people in that second-to-top tax bracket will offset their tax increase after $164K.

239: The "magic line" is $250k for couples and $200k for individuals. At those levels the top two tax brackets go to 36% and 39.6%, the capital gains/dividend rate increases to 20%, and main stream media outlets dig through your trash to see if there's any dirt to publish about you.

Anyone know how Paul Weiss is weathering the storm?

209- What is that supposed to mean? I dont see how in any way it makes sense to what i said.

No part 5? Shame. Doesn't appear that the Offer meltdown has come true.

Agree with 245. This was just a ploy to generate page hits and to dupe non-HLS kids into accepting an offer to clear up space for HLS kids. I do not think I am coming back here for a while.

246, whether it was a scare tactic or not, the reality is the non-HLS kids should accept theur offers; if there is one spot left and the HLS kid accepts first, you're SOL. If the HLS kid accepts after you, they'd probably just add another spot for the HLSer and no-offer someone at the end of the summer.

247 assumes the the candidates that are sitting on offers are not waiting for others to come through...that's one hell of an assumption. If you have a bunch of offers open, who cares if one is taken away. In fact in the scenario that 247 described, it would be better to not go to that firm anyways, b/c you are risking being no-offered at the end of the summer. hth.

We're moving away from common sense on this thread.

Should non HLS students accept their offers ASAP? Yes, why not. They're not getting anymore, they need to decide.

Should HLS student accept their offers? Yes, in one-two weeks when all the offers are in, unless they already have an offer from their top choice firm.

Are HLS students more socially awkward than other students? Is the "bottom" of the class better or worse than top of other schools?

I'm an HLS 2L. 186 has a shitty group of friends if they don't like it here. There are 560 people in my class. Some are awkward, of course. I have amazing friends and have had a ton of fun here and met great people. I wouldn't trade this place for any other law school even for full tuition. If people don't like it, it's their own fault and perhaps they have deep underlying issues themselves.

As to the bottom of the class. Obviously the top of many other schools are better, but that being said, the bottom of the class here is the middle of the class at virtually any other law school accept maybe YS. I've had a very famous prof who came from another school after being there for many years and even said as much when asked why he left his old school after so many years to come to HLS.

You are not "kids", people. You are professionals.

248, what offers do the non-HLSers think they're waiting for -- It's the end of October already. It would be asinine to keep sitting on offers at this point in this economy. If you're such "top talent" you can always lateral up later. (And btw I'm a biglaw midlevel, so frankly it doesn't "help.") ~247.

250, then maybe they should act that way. Most of them sound like spoiled kids to me.

225 - are you serious? I spent the weekend banging random broads, not holed up in my studio apartment constantly hitting 'refresh' on a legal gossip blog. Loser.

How many Harvard law students understand what a run-on sentence is? None, based on the writing by the author and commenters on this blog.

Here is my question: why would anyone want to work at a firm that is not strong enough - financially or ethically - to honor something as basic as the NALP Guidelines. I currently have several offers open and will definitely take all the time I need to make an informed decision. If one of these firms rescinds my offers in the meantime, I will know that I have dodged a bullet - no matter how much I thought I liked the firm. Isn't rushing to accept an offer at a firm that does not have the strength to honor its offers like clamoring to board a sinking ship? When I choose a firm, I want to be secure in the knowledge that this firm is above the fray, and is going to come out of this financial crisis relatively unscathed. If a firm is willing to risk the PR disaster that accompanies rescinding offers, they must really be in a dire position. And I want no part of that.

255 - you may be lucky, smart, or just plain ignorant. as a student you truly do not know what's like to work at a firm. and even less to be in the market when the economy is this bad. feel fortunate that you have many offers to choose from. in the coming months, more firms will continue to fall - even if you find out about it or not. nobody is safe.

211,

I did store that Harvard rejection letter in my "valuables" bin. Next to my SA offer letters from every firm in the V10 I interviewed with (6 of them, including V2-4). How many kids are Harvard are saying that right now? Probably a lot, but not all of them. Was it worth it if that was your ultimate endgame and reason for attending Harvard and you didn't achieve it?

-T5-10 Law School 2L

P.S. Before all the scathing responses from Harvard Law students who are hopelessly clinging to prestige of their degree for self comfort and inferiority complex reasons come through, you are not better because you went to Harvard. That's right, you are not. At all. No one cares once you are through the door, and if the degree didn't get you through the door you were hoping, it sure won't make you any better at the door you went through. Suck it.

255 - I agree that it's douche-baggy for the firms to not honor the 45-day timeline, and that it's not good for them to rush people. But the conclusions you draw about the firms who are rescinding are not correct.

First, firms who are rescinding offers are not "sinking ships." In fact, they may be in a much better position come summer 09 to weather a continually poor economy because they made the decision upfront to cap unnecessary employment. Remember, the market tanked after they handed out many offers. Their choice was either to react (look at new operational budget projections and change the number of offers), or not react (stay with their previous projections). Choosing to respond does not mean they are "in a dire position," and does not say anything about firm strength.

I don't care if the firm's Wachtell or whoever -- if any firm is not changing its financial projections at this point, I'd be worried about joining it. When it comes to my job security, and my ability to get an offer after next summer, I'd much rather go with a firm that's being conservatively careful about hiring right now.

Second, rescinding offers would have been a PR disaster in the years before, but not in these economic conditions. Just take a look at all the comments so far - no one is saying, "Proskauer did WHAT?" They're all saying, "Holy shit, people better hurry up." Whether you agree with the advice to hurry up is another question - the point is that nobody's calling for a boycott of those firms who have rescinded. Again, firms are capping their summer classes to make sure they don't spend too much money on people they won't need, and to try to protect their offer percentages after summer 09. Any PR consequence from that will not be as severe as you may think.

253 - by "banging hot broads" do you mean pleasuring yourself and crying into your pillow about the failed state of your legal career?

Also, remember that hiring also goes down when there are fewer permanent associates (juniors and mid-levels) leaving for other jobs. The firm can be just as busy and healthy as before, but they simply can't take on as many people as before when their current employees are not going anywhere. That again tells you nothing about whether a rescinding firm is in trouble or not.

260 - I mainly disagree. If a majority, or even something approaching 20%, of firms were rescinding offers, you might have a point. The fact is, however, that the vast majority of firms have not rescinded offers. So, I don't think it's unreasonable or unwise to draw some conclusions about the relative financial weakness of the few firms that have chosen to do so. While I agree that these firms will not be pilloried the way they would in a stronger market, because everyone understands that market forces beyond the firms control are to blame here, they will still be at a PR disadvantage vis a vis the majority of firms. I don't think that this is unjustifiable. Summer associates, and first year associates, are relatively inexpensive for firms, and so I think it says something if a firm cannot continue to accomodate them.

*Correction: that comment was meant for 255*

261 - I agree that such an inference can be made, but to think that it's an inevitable conclusion, or that rescission is some kind of conclusive proof of a firm in trouble, would be taking it too far.

- 258

261 - And I don't mean to say that *you* were taking the inference too far. 255 had talked about "PR disasters," "sinking ships," and firms in "dire positions." I was responding primarily to that language. I'm not saying 255 doesn't have a point, but just that you can't read too much into rescissions.

- 258

227, I would think that Heller and Thelen each qualified as Big Law. Yes, not as prestigious as Williams & Conn., but in the same league if you define that league generously. They were close enough that a T14 2L back in 2007 might have interviewed at all three firms for their summer associate position during on campus interviews, though they might be more excited about the Williams option (or delusional about their ability to get an offer) than the others. That puts them in something like the same ballpark in my opinion.

And very interesting post about the Aspies, 229. Thanks.

Really 265? W&C, Heller, Thelen???? I had never even heard of the latter two until this recruiting season. Don't delude yourself.

Oh, by the way Elie. It's Monday. I'm sitting on multiple offers. Not only have none been rescinded, I just got offered a return visit and dinner by a V30 firm TODAY.

Guess I'm not crazy. Guess you are full of shit.

MysTTTal

267 - i hope you die a horrible horrible death. I'm not bitter, I already accepted my top choice (V10), I just think you're a douche.

265 -- I think you're correct as to Heller, but maybe not as to Thelan. -- Biglaw associate (class of 05)

269 = asshat

271 = un-American

Apparently Cardozo OCS just sent out an "accept your offers now" e-mail.