"must of seen this coming"

Heller management must _have_ seen this coming....

Ugh.

It should say, "must have," you moran [sic].

new nickname: must have MysTTTall

I must of been third?

*adds name to class action due to dashed hopes of working there 1L summer...i want my 3k/week!*

-nervous T-10 1L

Must HAVE seen this coming. If you didn't know that, you should have gone with "must've."

Does Lat even read this shit anymore?

Also, why don't you just mark up the bottom when you change the typo? Say "edited."

Third. Write better.

I can haz typoz?

I should of been the first to point out the typo.

Elie, if you weren't such a left-wing hack, I wouldn't of pointed out your typo.

I remember the good ol' days, when commenters posted hilarious comments or explained that something wasn't a big deal, because guys in their high school used to do it all the time. Now, comments only critique grammar, which isn't much fun at all.

Is there any chance of ignoring the typos and focusing more on substance?

Question for management: What does it mean when a post that was previously by Elie shows up as having been written by Lat once the typos are corrected?

Thanks, 8.

damnit Nervous T10-1L, I thought we got rid of you.

Go back to GULC where you belong....

You bastard.

-Confident 2L

11 - I'm rolling on the floor.

"Be the change you wish to see in the world. -Gandhi

-8,12

PS - Commentators.

Yeah, seriously. We all get it, the guy doesn't proofread. Can we get on with the other comments and give it a rest with the grammar corrections. The comments section of this site is starting to read like OldEnglishTeacher.blogspot.com

Lat should turn MysTTTal's typo problem into a strip poker like punishment for Kash. Every typo MysTTTal makes, Kash has to post a picture of herself with one fewer piece of clothing. Not that Kash has done anything to deserve the punishment, but it would compensate the readers for MysTTTal's TTTypos.

Failing that, I'd really like to get a sock, a bar of soap and do to a Full Metal Jacket to MysTTTal

guys in my high school used to not proofread all the time. it was no big deal.

13, Georgetown Law is the single greatest institution of higher learning in the history of the universe. If he went to Georgetown, he'd have no reason to be nervous.

18 --- DING!

What a bunch of (cry) babies posting here.

Move along children, move along!

i really could care less about the grammar/typos. the story is the news. obv., it makes it a bit harder to read but move along guys.

feel bad for the heller people. i hope they get paid, or force heller into involuntary bk.

Wow, the lawsuit gets filed yesterday, Callaw has an article on its website last night, it shows up on ATL tonight, and the first 20 comments only point out typos?

How about addressing the substance of the claims? The strategy of filing vs. not filing? Etc.

Why are all the former employees suing non-lawyers?

24: did they sue any non-lawyers? Or do you mean, "why are all the plaintiffs non-lawyers"?

first person to correct 24's comment gets a $50 gift card to sizzler and some hot lovin'.

correctgrammar@gmail.com

CHEESE-y, CHEESE-y, CHEESE-y, CHEESE-y, CHEESE-y, PEANUT-y goodness! Hellz, yeah, bitches!

This is going to get really ugly.

Pardon me Mr. 14, you forgot a quotation mark in your comment. I hate you. You are intellectually challenged. I am quite confident that I am better than you at most, if not all, facets of life. For example, have you ever faced a pitcher that throws a 95 MPH fastball? I have. I hit a double. Then I mixed in two singles. Eat shit.

Does anyone know anything about Nichols Kaster? Are they reputable?

Isn't there a huge chance of bankruptcy with the lawsuit? Does it make sense right now? We all can end up with nothing, shareholders included.

I can only tell you two things about Nichols Kaster:

They miscited the jurisdictional statute they are relying on for federal class action status.

The lawyer who signed the complaint was admitted to the California bar in July 2007.

As for bankruptcy, the lawsuit probably doesn't make that more likely imminently. Long time before the plaintiffs can make meaningful progress with it.

Yes, why file now--unless there is only a certain time frame in which one can file? Wouldn't it make more sense to wait for the banks to be paid off, then see what the employees get rather than jumping right in with a lawsuit and paying (possibly large) fees to Nichols Kaster? The employees are in line after the banks and BEFORE the shareholders, right? Seems silly to make the pot that much smaller by paying lawyers' fees...

Yes, the employees are in line behind the banks, but ahead of the shareholders. Timeline for bankruptcy: The outer limit is the same as the statute of limitations on the underlying claims -- so not for a long time yet.

I do tend to think it would be better to let the AR collection process go forward for a while, see if the banks can be paid out of the way.

If you are a former associate, keep in mind that Nichols Kaster is purporting to represent us too.
Does anybody know if that firm is working on a contingency arrangement?

Revenge is sweet--but getting all the money owed (without a percentage of it lining the pockets of lawyers) is sweeter.

29,

Relax bro, girls at my high school used to hit my fastballs all the time, it was no big deal.

And then I hit a "triple," if you know what I mean.

34, of course the firm is working on a contingency arrangement. You think three former Heller staff (non-attorneys) have Nichols Kaster on retainer?

It seems like it would have been smarter to wait, but it's pretty clear that Nichols Kaster went down the list of Heller employees until it found a couple that would agree to be named members of the class.

I say Elie is brilliant for intentionally dropping typos to get the grammar nazis' panties in knots. I think it's sport at this point.

I seriously doubt that former HE employees give a shit about former HE shareholders. The culture concept that was often talked about was a myth and almost as lame as former HE shareholders -- like Harry Rubin and Stevie Ferruolo -- who could not resist talking smack on their former colleagues, well over a year after they had left the firm.

Reports are that former leaders of the Heller management team - Larrabee, Fiala, Hubbell, Fram, among others -have retained separate counsel.

What do you think they are worried about, hmmmm.?

Oh Noes, my typoz makeing my blogg goez down in flamez

http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Image:OH_NOES_fire.jpg

i don't get the title of the thread. yes, "a time to kill" was a book and movie. no, a pun is not created when you change kill to sue.

SIMPSON IS LAYING OFF ATTORNEYS!

are the incoming associates that got screwed over entitled to WARN claims?

45: no.

i hope we get more post about firm dissolutions, layoffs, and bonus! I am tired of useless articles on this website. we need to go back to the days when ATL went looking for the truth about the rumors.......

i heard that Simpson push up their annual review from February 2009 to December 2008...the talks around the firm are that they are trying to cut associates off before bonus season to reduce cost and/or encourage bad reviews to give less bonus to associates!!!!!!

41, that is almost the best news I've heard in a while. Guess the shoe doesn't fit so well on the other foot - er, feet.

47: you will get your wish.

33,
it pays to be FIRST to the courthouse. As a class rep, the three will take home more than they would had they been second. Sure, in a perfect world everyone would just chill and divy up the pie later, but the statute provides for waiting penalties which increases the pie.

Also, I'm a little hazy on partnership law, but wouldn't the debts owed by the partnership need to be shared by all the partners? Hence, there really is no limit except for the net wealth of all the partners that agreed to the dissolution plan? Plus with all the other big firms head hunting the rainmaking partners after the dissolution plan are the signing bonuses subject to bankruptcy provisions? A little self-dealing at the expense of the debtors?

Also, if there is any possible chance to add the banks as Defendant Does 1-50, who wouldn't want to take a bank to trial for not paying out money that was due to the poor schlubs in the working class. (Notice how none of the named plaintiffs are attorneys).

Finally, of course the attorneys will make out like bandits here for a settlement.

44 - even with that extra 300k in revenue from the bailout work? who'da thunk?

51, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_liability_partnership

ELIE!!! Wake up from your turkey-induced stupor and report on the STB story. ty

New York is an "at-will" employment state (one of the plaintiffs lives and worked in NY). How does this interact with federal WARN law?

Heller has offered a "retention bonus" to the employees that are staying yet if they leave, they are informed that they won't even get their due vacation monies. This HAS to violate at least one other labor law.

To me this would be analogous to forced labor: "Stay and get paid until we say you can go... Or leave now and take your chances that you'll get nothing."
Any labor attorneys want to weigh in on their "vacation announcement" a few weeks ago compounded with their "retention bonus" announced this week?

38: I don't think Nichols Kaster found them. I think Heller Drone went out and found NK. (And maybe didn't shop as carefully as he should have, considering the sloppy complaint.)

40: There was a distinctive firm culture. You have to have been there before people like Ferruolo, though. The culture got considerably watered down in the race from 350 to 700 attorneys, from about 1997 to 2007.

55: At will employment has nothing to do with the WARN act. Everybody, whatever their contractual status is entitled to the WARN act provisions if the employer has enough employees to trigger the coverage.

51, 53: It seems to be a little unclear what the scope of the Heller partners/shareholders is for labor violation claims. It is not a general partnership, so they are not jointly and severally liable. On the other hand, some of the labor violations tag people if they were participants in the management of the entity, which all of the partners might be. I believe this came up in the Brobeck dissolution, but I don't know how it was resolved as a legal matter there.

55: at the end of the day, it doesn't. Most states are "at-will." Nonetheless, that doesn't give employers the right to discriminate in violation of T.VII, e.g. (I know, totally unrelated to this, but it illustrates the point), or to violate the rules of WARN when the employer meets the threshold criteria that makes it subject to the Act. The point of WARN is to give large groups of soon-to-be-displaced workers fair notice that they need to start looking for another job and get their finances in order so they aren't taken by surprise and left without money to pay the mortgage or for groceries. Whether a state is "at-will" has nothing to do with it.

The second-year doofus who miscited the jurisdictional statute also screwed his class big time by filing for the waiting time penalties that #51 mentioned. Boneheaded move. Filing a claim for those stops the accrual, under Labor Code 203. So those folks who were laid off last Friday and didn't get their final paycheck will get ... THREE days of continuing wages instead of thirty that they would have gotten if these Minnesota carpetbaggers knew anything about California law and had waited to file.

It's a shame. I'm a California employment lawyer (employer-side), I've litigated both with and against Heller, they're good people and deserve better representation.

57's right. the heller culture was on life support by 2004. and 59- agreed that these guys seriously jumped the gun on filing this lawsuit. that's what happens in an echo chamber.

ham sandwich

59: Appreciate your expertise (as a member of the prospective class myself). Didn't the doofus also screw up by failing to allege that the damages are greater than $5MM, to satisfy the jurisdictional threshold of 28 USC 1332(d)?

-- 57

Here's some good news for the laid off Heller associates. When the Lord closes a door, he always opens a window.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081021/ap_on_re_us/san_francisco_prostitution

63: STFU

62: 59 here. Looks like he did allege $5MM in controversy, in par. 18, even if he got the US Code title wrong. In any case he may not need CAFA since he's got WARN act claims for jurisdiction.

To answer someone else's question above, I've never heard of this firm before but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. But it's a little surprising that one of the better known N. Cal. plaintiffs firms didn't take this on. Mark Thierman, where are you?

Or Mark Rudy's firm. Or Lawless & Lawless. Etc.

-- 62

Does anyone know what we can do to prevent the stop in accrual of waiting time penalties for ourselves by this absolutely idiotic lawsuit? If we opt out of the class action, does that mean our waiting time penalties should continue accruing, unabated by the lawsuit? And when and how do we opt out? Finally, can we file our own DLSE claims in the meantime. Thanks very much.

57 -- your comments are insightful. Thanks, and please keep posting. More important, please consider posting on the Heller Drone site. As an attorney, you can be helpful there.

I gather that you were a Heller attorney. As was I. It was an excellent place to work. I hope things are going well for you.

68: Thanks. Yes, I was a Heller attorney.
And I have been checking in on the Heller Drone site.

Hope you found a good place to land.

-- 57

57 -- thanks. I am very happy with my new home. I think that each of us is adding a bit of our culture to the places we've ended up. Since most of us went in chunks, we'll make noticable contributions to our new firms. I'm sort of jazzed.

I hope you too have found a good place to land. We still need to find places for some of our former junior associates (including the Class of 2008, which never started, nor yet received their push back stipend) and hopefully be able to make progress on that front.

To the select law students who post inane comments on this site. I'm a biglaw mid-level associate. When we talk about hiring, you're exactly the type of students we want to stay away from. That, of course, assumes you have a resume and personality to even qualify for an interview, which seems unlikely. To the other law students here, this isn't a great market. Please keep your options open and stay focused.

63,

Please read 71.

Thanks,
72

So, if some opt out of the lawsuit ,in time, we should (hopefully) get what is due us? I for one am very confused about what to do.

70: Has there been any recent communication with the never-started first-years? I got the impression, perhaps inaccurate, that they had been left pretty much in the dark, and out in the cold.

-- 57

As far as Thelen goes, there has been no communication with incoming associates since last March.

55: This may have already been answered, but once the WARN Act protections are triggered, it supersedes state law to the contrary (i.e. "at will employment").

Plenty have raised concerns about the bankruptcy case, and it may actually provide an opportunity for the courts to answer a pretty significant question...are WARN Act litigation claims entitled to administrative priority? If they are, then these employees get money over partners, and the revenge will likely be sweet. If they are not, the partners will still probably get nothing if this goes to bankruptcy, but the employees will likely get nothing as well.

It is amusing how the first 15-20 comments in any post focus on grammatical issues, and then the substantive comments and discussion begin. At least it makes it easy to skip over the haters and scroll down to the good stuff.

"In my view, layoffs are when you decide to cut headcount. It's not when you decide to replace people with better people." -- Bart Winokur

62,
Federal Subject Matter Jurisdiction allows a federal court to take supplemental jurisdiction over any and all related state law claims without regard to money.

5 million is a little pricey perhaps?

The Dechert View on "layoffs":

"In my view, layoffs are when you decide to cut headcount. It's not when you decide to replace people with better people." -- Bart Winokur

41: Reports are that former leaders of the Heller management team - Larrabee, Fiala, Hubbell, Fram, among others -have retained separate counsel.

What do you think they are worried about, hmmmm.?

I tell you what they're worried about: First, a suit by employees (associates and staff), and second--perhaps more importantly--a suit by former shareholders. There is a widely held view among shareholders that the executive committee misled the rest of the shareholders about the amount of debt the firm had, when it took that debt on, and whether they were authorized to take on that debt in the first place.

57 -- I know that some former partners and associates are trying to find places for the pushed back first years. As I'm sure you know, this is difficult in the short term because our new firms already have a fresh crop of first year associates. I'm hoping that we generate enough business at our new firms to neccesitate first year hiring. I think all of us need to reach out to the pushed back first years and see if there is anything we can do for them -- 70

57 "Does anyone know what we can do to prevent the stop in accrual of waiting time penalties for ourselves by this absolutely idiotic lawsuit?"

Yes, Plagiarize (after correcting) the complaint and file 30 days after termination. The only person who's penalty rates has stopped accruing thus far are the named plaintiff's.

We need the shareholders in New York to help out the existing first years (well, I guess, second years).

Goddamn class action plaintiffs lawyers. They didn't give a shit about the extra wages the plaintiffs could've accrued had they waited. They just wanted to be the first guys to the courthouse so they could get their damn cut as "lead class counsel." Now the whole thing is gonna be a fucking mess.

Yes, based on the class counsel's decision to file prematurely, I now have about 20,000 reasons to opt out of the class.

76: Bankruptcy cannot elevate pre-petition WARN act claims to administrative priority status. Only post-petition work can get that status. Pre-petition employee claims have priority over the shareholders in all cases as to their return of capital. Employee claims, WARN act and otherwise, have priority over other creditors to a maximum of about $10K (inflation-adjusts every year); the rest of an employee's claim shares parai passu with all creditors.

79: Understood. But the 1332(d) class action with $5MM in controversy is an even solider basis for staying in federal court on all claims.

82: Your second point (exposure for misleading partners, maybe drawing down debt liens without proper authority) is a good one; I suspect you are correct.

84: Consult a good labor attorney first (not my area). I would think just not being in the class (not in until certification; opt out once certification occurs if it does) is enough to preserve one's individual claims. (And you were responding to 67, not 57.)

-- 57 here

57 - - Sorry. Thanks - - 84

What needs to happen is Nichols Kaster needs to communicate to the potential class and provide advice on questions like "I am not a named plaintiff, if I become a class member when does/did my penalty payments stop accruing. At the time filing or when the class was certified?

Nichols Kaster has an extensive web site, with status reports on various cases they are handling. This action against Heller is not yet up on there though.

-- 57

anyone know where Steve Weise is heading?

91 - if it was up your douche, you'd know.

92 - are you that bored?

Anyone with substantive information?

- 91

91 -- I haven't heard.

Are you a former Heller associate? I am. Hope things are going well for you.

Kaster is a complete twat. He has seriously screwed things up for all of us

Yes. The attorney behind this suit should be ashamed of himself and the life he leads. This is just horrible.

Here is the firm:

http://www.nka.com/default.aspx

"At NKA, we look for attorneys that are dedicated to fighting for employee rights. Unlike many big firms, a new associate will play a very active role on cases from day one – for example many of our new associates write dispositive motions, take depositions, attend mediations, hearings and arbitrations, and trials. While new associates are given these responsibilities very early on, they are also closely supervised by the partners and senior associates to ensure they are on the right track. "

Law students, work hard! Or else you'll end up at places like NKK, where you'll drive the ambulance in search of clients with no legal training and whose lives have been thrown asunder.

Should the named plaintiffs have the case dismissed? There is no limitations issue.

It's so much fun to discuss legal strategies, judgments, and options via anonymous comment postings! I'm sure the named plaintiffs will take whatever advice is offered here.

What's going on with health insurance? Anyone know anything?

Heller drone is worried someone will try to contact the plantiffs (from Heller Highwater: "I feel strongly that no one should be trying to contact the lead plaintiffs directly as has been mentioned here and on other blogs")--wonder why?? B/c they may reconsider a lawsuit that is going to help no one but NKA? It's interesting that in the past Heller drone argued against bankruptcy but is now supporting something that could lead to it.

88

In my haste, I completely overlooked the pre-/post-petition distinction. Wow. That is a massive error for which I should be immediately dis-barred. Good thing these posts are anonymous.

Signed, 76

I spoke to Heller's HR department today. Final-day checks (not including accrued vacation) were cut for all employees who were *terminated* on Friday, but not those who had earlier *resigned*. No penalty amounts are included in the checks for the terminated employees. The reason given was that the banks permitted payment to those fired but not to those who resigned.

I have called Citibank, at which I am a private banking client, to express my fury at the actions which Citibank has taken, and to indicate that I am considering moving my business elsewhere (and encouraging others to do the same). I don't know if that will accomplish anything, but it felt good to vent a bit. And maybe it'll get passed up the chain.

I spoke to Heller's HR department today. Final-day checks (not including accrued vacation) were cut for all employees who were *terminated* on Friday, but not those who had earlier *resigned*. No penalty amounts are included in the checks for the terminated employees. The reason given was that the banks permitted payment to those fired but not to those who resigned.

I have called Citibank, at which I am a private banking client, to express my fury at the actions which Citibank has taken, and to indicate that I am considering moving my business elsewhere (and encouraging others to do the same). I don't know if that will accomplish anything, but it felt good to vent a bit. And maybe it'll get passed up the chain.

74 - there has been no communication to the never-started first years. I know a couple may have gone with partners, but everyone else was left hung out to dry. Most responses have been that they feel bad but there is nothing they can do if their new firms aren't hiring (which it seems none are). I.e. they aren't willing to help us look elsewhere.

We are all pretty much screwed since most firms don't even have enough work for the first years that just started.

I'm appalled that there hasn't been at least some formal communication with you. It couldn't have been that hard just to send you all an email saying something, even if it amounted to nothing.

I think you all should be communicating with each other, and sending the firm individual demand letters for whatever stipdends, other contractual monetary claims you have against the firm. In the end, your claims should come ahead of any distribution of capital back to the partners (if it turns out as well as that).

I know (all too well) that the market is horrible right now. I hope things come right for all of you sooner than later.

-- 57 (74)

Hey LAURA WERTH You selfish Lady...Why can't you wait just a little bit longer. How long did you work for Heller who employed you for years and years and had given you a raise year after year. Hope you still have some Heller friends after you this. Don't be a Hero to Zero!

CARL GOODMAN , You greedy bastard, you have no idea of how good Heller to their employees because you haven't been there long enough to know. How long were you at Heller? 3 years... You big baby! Babies have no patience. Did you wear a tie everyday?

ANNA SCARPA, How long have you been with Heller Ehrman, 2 years, hmm, compared to other long time employees that was employed for more than 10 years that are patienly waiting their PTO will actually be paid later. So please stand in front of a mirror and ask yourself, did I do the right thing? then slap your face 2 or 3 times to wake up!

You three are IDIOTS!

HD

109: Thank you for that useless rant.

EDITOR: CAN YOU PLEASE DELETE 109 (and then this post)? NUMBER 109 CROSSES THE LINE.

108 -- I know this is not right., but know those of us that have settled at places are thinking about you. That said, we're not thinking about you enough (and I agree -- the firm has really dropped the ball here). Drop us a line, and let us know you're out there.

109 -- It makes sense to be angry, but it is misguided to single out the named plaintiffs. I was a Heller associate and over the past two months, I have seen acts of kindness, but also misguided ander. At various stages we singled out an observable target for the f*ck up of the day -- the chair at first, the IP partners that left next, then management as whole, certain of the merger suitors, and now the named plaintiffs. I don't think blame needs to be assigned, but to the extent it does,, it is wrong to identify the named plaintiffs. They are like you and me -- our firm thrown up in the air, and with it our lives. In that position, we all make different decisions.

Hellerites, this resonates:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7674730.stm

I hope that the parties will settle this amicably to prevent tedious court litigation.

Thanks 112 - I wish others felt the same!

- 107

109: whats up with the playa hatin'
They are winners in my book. Sure beats sitting on your ass, acting like sheep, and wait for some check in the mail that will never come.
Kudos to Carl Goodman, Laura Werth, Anna Scarpa, we are behind you.

116, if we are behind them, it's only to kick them in their rears.

Pity the fools.

Former Heller Associate here.

So let me get this straight...

We (all employees) got the WARN Act notice at the end of September, giving us 60 days of pay under federal law that would end on November 28, 2008. At that time we owed the Banks somewhere around $40M and had over $100M in A/R still coming in.

About 2 weeks later, the Bank of America and CitiBank squeezed the firm and the firm let most of the support staff go. At that time, we were all still accruing pay under the WARN Act.

About a week after that, we paid the Banks about $7M, but they decide that's not good enough and then the remaining employees, both lawyers and non-lawyers, were all let go, save a handful of people for wind-down purposes. At that time, we were all still accruing pay under the WARN Act and still had over a month left to go until November 28.

Then a few days later, the support staff hired a CA plaintiff firm to IMMEDIATELY file a law suit against Heller, and the filing of that law suit stopped the clock on any further accrual of pay that we were all owed under the WARN Act, despite the fact that we could have all accrued an additional month's worth of pay.

Is that about right?

Correct me if I am wrong, but if this lawsuit forces the firm into bankruptcy wouldn't that slow down dramatically A/R coming in? If clients think that by delaying paying they will only have to pay cents on the dollar (in the case of bankruptcy) why would they continue paying in a timely manner?
So not only will the clock stop on any further accral of pay but the pie will be made even smaller by clients deciding to delay payment (not to mention the cut taken by NKA)...

You're an associate? Not a very good one. Even I know that it only stops accrual on the people that participate in the class action. Simply don't participate. Don't hate.

On a different note, Benvenutti made a serious 1L move. He distributed letters offering vacation pay and a bonus to the people that stay on just a few more weeks.

Petey, how do you propose to maintain that the banks forced you not to pay terminated employees? Answer: You're screwed. You've now displayed willful disregard for state and federal law. Good luck to you avoiding sanction and at the very least getting a new job.

121 - don't flatter yourself. We're well aware of Rule 23 and the ability to opt out of class action law suits. We're merely pointing out the extreme stupidity of any member of the purported class filing a lawsuit right fucking NOW as opposed to after November 28 when you, as a rock-star class member, could have received more money, Genius.

Furthermore, the threat of a lawsuit, as 120 correctly pointed out, makes bankruptcy that much more of a realistic consequence. If this firm goes into involuntary bankruptcy then there won't be anything left to "hate" on.

You should really think before you speak. In fact, just don't speak anymore.

Like I said before. The whole "Heller culture" thing is and was always a big myth. Nothing but a bunch of arrogant whiny lawyers.

123 -- all lawyers are arrogant and whiny. The ones at Heller were also smart and interesting. And were you an associate at the firm?

120/122, contrary to popular belief, there isn't going to be any bankruptcy filing.

Part of the decision to appoint Benvenutti to the committee was to make the lay and less informed THINK that money is a problem. The shareholders are using this all as a means of maximizing asset retention by forcing people to file claims and/or sue. They know that a considerable percentage of people will just roll over and take it. This will net them tens of millions.

This was the REAL dissolution plan. I am in the know. I was IN THE ROOM when these plots were bandied about. I left because I couldn't stomach what they were doing.

1) There will be not bankruptcy filing.
2) The only people that will get their money are the ones who file/sue for it.

Get in line. Just make sure it's the right one.

125--why couldn't this force them into involuntary bankruptcy? And you were in the room? Are you a shareholder?

125--I get that the firm doesn't want to file bankruptcy but could the lawsuit force them into involuntary bankruptcy? I'm not an attorney but what I've read (admittedly on message boards) suggests this could be the case.
If money isn't "a problem" why are they dissolving? Also, there is a difference between filing a wage claim and filing a suit--one involves giving a percentage to lawyers.

Those that filed suit will get pennies on the dollar if for no other reason than giving a percentage to lawyers as you eloquently put it.

Those that filed claims will get all their due money.

Those that sit on their ass will get nothing. The "Heller Elite" has planned this for netting them back millions.

So, better to file a claim and opt out of the lawsuit?

Any news on where Larrabee is headed?

130 - To Hell

131 -- If you're looking to cast blame, there are a number of other targets: the big cases that settled, the policy committee, the Covington partners, the cut and run suitors like Baker, the general slowdown in litigation, the shareholders who voted to give Larrabbee a second term, shareholders not working hard enough for business, the banks, etc.

126 - actually it only takes 3 individuals to file in order to force the firm into involuntary bankruptcy, so it really could happen very easily.

The only thing the early filing of the class action stops is the accrual of penalties for late payment of wages.

Has anyone written to counsel for the named plaintiffs letting them know just how big of a**wipes they are?

IMHO, 125 is an outsider who was never in any room.

Read the Diissolution Plan: The firm will file bankruptcy if it has to, but not otherwise. The Dissolution Committee is already authorized to file a bankruptcy case if they deem it appropriate.

The membership of the Dissolution Committee is not, I believe, a cosmetic change. I think instead it reflects the partners booting Larrabee and the other executive committee members who led the firm (over a period of years) into this fiasco. And in particular, to take the control out of the hands of Larrabee and others who decided the firm should borrow so much money (to grow!). Also my assumption is that Benvenutti was named chairman because (as a bankruptcy specialist) he understands the dissolution/liquidation process, which the general litigation leadership like Larrabee et al. would not.

I don't see any harm in any individual filing a Cal. DLSE claim for what you are owed. I do think that if collections come in as they should that will turn out not to be necessary, but being cautious by filing such a claim can't hurt you. Official info on that process is here: /www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/HowToFileWageClaim.htm Note that you have a minimum of two years from the time you were terminated to file such a wage claim, so there really is no hurry. And a bankruptcy in the meantime would not affect your ability to submit a claim in the bankruptcy case just the same whether or not you have filed a DLSE claim.

An involuntary bankruptcy filing takes only three creditors. BUT their three claims have to amount to a total of at least $10,000.

125's point 2), and 128's last sentence, are just ignorant, and wrong. You must do something only if there is a bankruptcy filing; then you would have to submit a claim or get nothing.

Any individual should so what he or she thinks best. Just don't believe ignorant comments posted here as a basis for deciding what you'll do.

www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/HowToFileWageClaim.htm

IMHO, 136/137 is an idiot that can't read (let alone post a link). There is no waiting period. If you were terminated improperly, you can and should file IMMEDIATELY.

Meetings held by opinion makers were held virtually. Yes, I was IN THE ROOM.

The dissolution plan that you read was leaked, moron. It's called disinformation. Look it up. Petey knows how to dissolve a company, true. There will be NO bankruptcy filing. Class actioners will be settled with their attorneys pulling 25% for very little effort. The shareholders have WAY TOO MUCH to lose by filing for bankruptcy. There are assets UNDISCLOSED in the fake dissolution plan that would come to light and be subject to seizure by such actions.

The only ignorant comments are the ones that tell people not to listen to posts here right after telling them what to do.

138 also believes that Obama is secretly a Muslim terrorist.

I'm no fan of the grotesque mess the partners have made, but --
show us your 'secret' dissolution plan. Show us your 'undisclosed' assets.

136/137/139

You are a fan. Surprise!

I don't have to show you anything. Why would I expose myself like that. Show some patience and you'll see. Others will trumpet what I am saying. Give it time.

Until then, Go to DLSE and file a wage claim. Stop reading these boards since to you they are useless for information.

Obama is no terrorist. McCain however, was programmed like the Manchurian Candidate.

Ha Ha

Of course you don't have to show me anything.

And nobody has to believe what you say either.

140 - the only room you were ever in was padded.

If you have any inside information, why don't you just share it with us instead of acting like an attention-grabbing child?

I like the idea of former shareholders suing Larrabee, et al for fraud (and stupidity). How can other ex-employees get in on such a suit?

143: That's an interesting question. So far, I haven't seen anything that would tell us who might file such a suit, or who their attorneys might be.

I guess we would need to watch new case filings in USDC - Nor. Cal. and S.F. Superior.

Are you in touch with any former shareholders? (I'm not.)

141/142, you can slam me all day. You can tell me what I believe about Obama. You can call me wearing a straight jacket.

At the end of the day, you're sitting on your duffs. You're stratching your heads. You're jobless wondering what happened. You're clueless trying to figure out what to do.

In the mean time, Peter Benvenutti is earning interest on YOUR money. An anonymous (yet benign) source is telling you to catch the MUNI to DLSE and file a claim or give a REAL attorney your money to get your money for you.

Or keep slammin' people that gave you enough information to make the most informed decision you can make. If I showed you minutes from a meeting that the plan was to fuck you (the employee) the first/most, would that THEN justify you trying to get back your money? If you require that, you deserve to be separated from your money.

One last point of edification for the ignorant. The two largest expenses in a business are real estate (leases) and personnel. What is Heller doing to their landlords?

Slam that, moron!

140: I am 141 (and 144), but I am not 142. I am not spending all day slamming you. And in fact I have not called you names. Your believability with me goes down when you indulge in mindless namecalling.

Landlords, I have some idea what they are doing. The are trying to negotiate with some of the landords to give back large chunks of the space, in return for some forgiveness of remaining-term rent obligations. Don't know if that will be successful.

Sue if you want; how you waste your money is your business.

What's going on here? Can we please take a time out, hug, and then tip our glasses to Mr. Ehrman?

Hope all my Heller peeps are all transitioning well.

These are not posts by Heller attorneys.

I am (was) a Heller attorney.

-- 136, 139, 141, 144, 146

145 - your theory is plausible, I guess, but your refusal to provide details is suspect. WTF do you lose by coming clean and disclosing everything to us? Unless you are former shareholder who doesn't want to go back on a pseudo-promise to keep things confidential.

Does anyone know if the last paychecks for those terminated on the 17th were sent out?

Betcha didn't know that Heller owned (and developed) 333 Bush. They don't "officially" own it anymore, but they're still tied up in it somehow.

Those of you railing against Larrabee are missing the point. Larrabee was just carrying out the plans laid by Barry when he was in office. What we have now is the result of Barry's vision, followed through by his protege.

Larrabee was an ineffective leader, but he wasn't the cause of this mess.

Those of you railing against Larrabee are missing the point. Larrabee was just carrying out the plans laid by Barry when he was in office. What we have now is the result of Barry's vision, followed through by his protege.

Larrabee was an ineffective leader, but he wasn't the cause of this mess.

Yes, I knew that Heller used to own part of the 333 Bush building. But during the 'growth' spurt, they sold that interest off, and spent the cash. Heller has been 'just a tenant' in that building for years now.

-- 136

Has Heller's dissolution had any effect on bay area pro bono or community service organizations? I know that Heller used to be really involved with those sorts of organizations.

Arrogant, smug Barry Fucking Levin and his co-hort shark, Phyllis Gardner masterminded this "strategy and vision" about 8 or 9 years ago. They couldn't see or hear anything else, despite advice from many shareholders. Yes, Matt was just Barry's puppet. Fuck them all.

157 -- agreed. Except I would add that they ridiculed and sneered at people who tried to slow the train. They knew better, you see.

This 145 guy is just a joke -- except he isn't funny. "Hidden Assets?" "In the room?" Give me a break.

I'm a shareholder. I've lost nearly $1 million between lost capital and the draws I won't get for the balance of the year. Not one shareholder believes that there will be any return of capital, none of us ever did. The employees are very likely to get everything they are entitled to, and we would have paid every penny to them if the banks would have allowed it. Benvenutti has allowed us all to be completely screwed by the banks, but the idea that the shareholders are trying to screw the employees is wrong, wrong, wrong. I am paying my ex-secretary's mortgage, I know lots of partners helping staff and associates get by. Shame on this guy -- he is a complete jerk.

159, I would be interested in your views about the cause of Heller's failure. I still do not understand how things could have unraveled so quickly, though I confess: I finally took notice that things might not be rosy once Pat Gillette left.

159 - I totally agree with you that 145 isn't very credible and until he/she comes forth with more details, he/she will just be another moron adding fuel to the fire. In the off chance 145 is telling the truth, there will be hell to pay... Like he/she said, time will tell.

Query though - What makes you so sure that "the employees are very likely to get everything they are entitled to"? EVERYTHING would include accrued vacation, WARN payments, etc.

159, thanks for your comments. Even though we won't loose millions, our little thousands might as well be millions. It's one step closer to being homeless. God bless the shareholder that's paying his ex-secretary's mortgage. There are decent Heller lawyers in spite of the effing management team.

162, I would never say that what we lost was more important or more impressive that what you have. You are absolutely right, and I dare say that nearly every shareholder understands the impact on the associates and has tried to help. The shareholders lost a lot, but we had years of high incomes as well -- we understand that.

161, the firm has receivables and WIP well in excess of what the banks are owed. If (IF!) we can maintain an orderly dissolution and are not forced into an insolvency proceeding by stupid class actions, etc., then I truly believe that employees will get the vast majority of what they are owed, including vacation pay, WARN notice pay, etc. When the deals to take entire offices fell apart, the partner's capital hopes went out the window -- we all know this. Anything left will go to the landlords, but our first priority is to pay the employees.

160 -- sometimes I can't believe it either. The initial trigger was the 2007 profits (we were down 10%, the rest of the world was up 15%) . . . that started the departures. We probably could have done a merger and saved everything, but management decided to go exclusive with Baker, which was never going to happen and chased an even larger group of partners away, and wasted what precious time there was. For this Keeshan and Larabee deserve a huge amount of blame. The biggest lesson is never, ever, go to a firm that uses its line of credit, especially not to the tune of tens of millions of dollars. The partners were not kept in the loop about the extent of the borrowings, and that brought the firm down at the end of the day.

Good luck to all of you -- for all the anger and bitterness about what has happened, it was a good group of people, let down by some fairly incompetent management. I think nearly every partner in the firm has a sense of having let you down, and we could not be more upset to see what is happening. I wrote the first post as 145 enraged me, and I hope at least a few people who read this are convinced how wrong he is.

163, thanks for the honesty and truth, it's been a long time overdue. We really appreciate it.

163 - by "orderly dissolution" do you mean paying off the banks and landlords FIRST, then dealing with what is legally owed to the employees? I don't think bankruptcy is a great option either but if that is what you mean by orderly dissolution, the employees should consider all options available to them. I mean, who is looking out for the employees? We're sitting here patiently (stupidly?) waiting for the firm to do right by us. If A/R slows to a trickle or stops, what then?
All I know is BofA, Citi and the landlords do not need the money as much as the staff and associates do.

wouldn't A/R "slow to a trickle or stop" a lot faster if the firm were forced into bankruptcy?

Hmmm..... 145 here. Do I hear violins playing for us? Us pooooor shareholders. We lost EVERYTHING! Boo hoo.

In the mean time, we've earned everything off your backs. We've fled the sinking ship onto more lucrative endeavors. What is a few weeks pay to us and what is it to you employees? Any of us losing our homes over this?

This is why I left. The bullshit floats all the way up to 34.

163: Thanks for the thoughtful comment.

165: Paying the banks off first isn't a choice, it's a necessity. They have lien on all AR and on the cash as it comes in. (Stupid to borrow that much, but everybody knows that now that it's too late. And, apparently, everybody didn't know that leverage had been used to such an extent.) If they can be paid off, the firm can pay the WARN amounts and accrued vacation. We'll just have to see.

One thing is for sure: litigation, and/or a bankruptcy filing, at This stage will Not expedite our chances for getting what is owed to us.

145/167 -- Am really happy to see that you are not defending your previous bullshit. You got out, congratulations, but you have shown yourself for what you are.

As for "violins" -- actually, no. If you read what I wrote (you can read?), you'll see a lot of compassion for the staff and associates. The "lost everything" comment was an acknowlegement, nothing more, addressed to the incendiary comment that there were "tens of millions" hidden away.

Since you got out and lost nothing, why don't you do what a lot of partners are doing and help out an associate or a secretary who can't get a job? There is a fund that some partners have put together. Or perhaps you are just too busy blowing smoke out your ass, making fragile people all the more upset.

165 -- 168 is correct. The banks had security on the A/R and WIP, and everyone told us that the WIP disappears in a bankruptcy. You are not behind the landlords. If (again, if) we can get the banks out of our lives and keep collecting money, the employees stand a very good chance of getting paid. If it goes into bankruptcy, you will get nothing. I know this doesn't help pay the rent or the mortgage at the end of the month, but it is a possibility of getting something.

I call bullshit.... what is this? Helsinki syndrome? we're feeling sorry for shareholders now? where's the evidence they were duped? bullshit. they haven't lost anything yet. just like wallstreet stocks nothing's been lost until realization at the end of the year when losses and gains are *posted* as realized losses and gains. this is just a slow period for them. all the while they are not paying out wages and leases they fucking OWE!!!!! all you muthaphucking shareholder sympathizers can kiss my ass.

WAGES, muthafuckas!
EARNINGS, biotches!

where is my shit? what fund? nobody's helped or offered to help my ass and i'm about to be thrown out my house.

You all are LIARS and sympathizers.

Kiss my azzzzzzzzzzzz!!!!!!!!! I hope Laura sues the phuc out of you until you lose your bitch pants. I'll get the rest.

166 - A/R trickle or not, you tell me if employees are better off if the firm is in bankruptcy. What do you think the best course of action is for employees?

168/170 - If employees are NOT behind the landlords, then why the hell is the dissolution committee negotiating with and paying out the landlords? Could it be that you want the landlords to play nice and not put the firm into bankruptcy? Meanwhile, the employees sit around waiting for good news. The website is down, there is no news update on anyting, and the DC is nowhere to be found. If you were an ex-employee instead of a former shareholder who has banked enough $$$ through the years, what would you do now?

We were told that Heller owed the banks around $45m and WIP and A/R totaled close to $120m. Last we heard, a $7m payment was made to the banks. Now, can you tell us how much is left owed to the banks?

My 171, you are an articulate one! Sounds as if you should have been fired a long, long time ago. I suspect you will be unemployed for a long time if this is the best you are able to do at expressing yourself

172: Employees are better off if the firm is not in bankruptcy: bk adds significant admin expenses, delays payouts, adds to risk of expensive fights between groups. Generally a desperation step unless a troubled company can reorganize through Ch. 11 and come out the other side (not Heller obviously).

My assumption is that Dissolution Committee is still negotiating with and paying out to landords because: (i) The firm is not out of all spaces, and can't get out while it winds up admin, IT, client files necessities. (ii) The firm is trying to get landlords to take back space as it is vacated, in return for writedown of future rents owed under the leases. That wouldl benefit us if it is successful, because it would reduce otherwise very large landlord claims of the same priority as (most) employee claims.

I don't know how much is still owed to the banks. That is of course key info for predicting how well collection/payout will turn out. If anybody does know where the banks' outstanding balances stand, please post.

-- 168

FYI, the HE web site now has an update on the 401(k) plan status. Includes documents we will need to rollover/withdraw our plan accounts. Freeze will be lifted as of Oct. 31 it says.

Haven't read it all yet, but didn't see any word on how much admin expense they are going to hit our accounts with.

my 173, you are an articulate shareholder that owes us money. where's this "fund" that you and a group of benificent shareholders are banding together for our rescue? here's a novel concept... PAY OUR OWED WAGES OUT OF IT

IMHO, I find it arrogant and disturbing that the shareholder (173) would take that stance knowing employees were illegally terminated. Those wrongful terminations place people in an understandbly frustrating position.

As 171 colorfully put it, Heller shareholders don't feel the pain accompanied by these economic times that someone working for wages (vs. profits) would feel.

I'm with you 171. And no Heller shareholder would ever be welcome at my firm. Go Baker!

177: I think it's unfair to say that Heller partners don't feel the pain at all; however, they feel it far less than us associates because they've been out-earning us for so long, often for doing essentially the same work we do (i.e., "service partners"). That said, it's disturbing to see the rate at which service partners were looked out for and brought to new firms, often at the expense of associates (and, in some cases, with service partners taking the compensation that could have brought two associates).

As I said 178, the same pain is not felt since they earn profits and not just wages. You obviously agree by noting that even their employment recovery was much softer than associates.

What Heller partner can honestly say they are SUFFERING from all this. I would imagine someone losing their home is SUFFERING. Suffering vs. not is not equal pain. Therefore they are not feeling it.

So Heller partners can't afford to put racing fuel in their Ferraris. Or they may have to consign their Maibach. This is very different from explaining to your children that you have to move.

what about the staff? 171 has a point be it harsh. The bottom line is that we need a job. There are still quite a lot of staffers searching for jobs and corporate is especially a soft market and about to get worse. Some staffers have been left out in the cold and need support from shareholders and associates to push and help them get into firms once they have landed at other firms. If anything, they owe us that support!

179--what about very junior partners who have seen NO return on their "investment" (and I highly doubt they have Ferraris)...and no, I'm not a junior partner, not a partner, not even an attorney

personally, i find it funny that associates can be so derogatory towards partners when all the associates want to be is partners, right? otherwise why would they be putting in those ludicrous hours and working holidays etc

181, you're way off. The junior partners are in many cases better off. They had very little equity at risk, perhaps less than $10K in most cases. Granted these guys weren't getting their draws the past two months or so, but if they landed elsewhere they likely negotiated a higher income at their new gig given that Heller was flatlining and had for years been underpaying junior partners. So at the end of the day many of the junior partners will make more because of all this mess.

Among attorneys, the people who are worst off are the very senior and very junior associates. The former because partnership prospects are now dimmed, the latter because they had yet to earn partner loyalty and may be out of work now.

183 hit it right on the head.

183 -- good analysis.

For any former Heller attorneys out there: as you know, while almost all 3d year and above associates have found new jobs, the numbers aren't as good for more junior associates, particularly the associates who were supposed to start this year. Please don't forget about them when your firms are hiring junior associates.

It is the employee's right to sue a former employer if they believe something wrong has been done to them. However, it is up to the courts to decide whether they are right or wrong in their allegations.

186: I don't understand the point of your comment.
Heller has acknowledged that it owes us associates WARN pay, accrued vacation pay, etc. Nobody is claiming that we have been treated as properly as is required. But the banks lock on the cash has preempted our getting paid now what we are owed.

No court would declare that Heller does not owe us the items I mentioned; but the most the court would do is give a judgment. That judgment would (still) be junior in right to the banks' liens -- putting us right back where we are now.

- 168

I'm a former staffer for over 10 years. How do I get on the fund list that partners have created? News to me.

More from the geniuses at Nichols Kaster:

They filed a proof of service of their class action complaint, which states that the complaint was served on the firm via personal service on "Peter VenVenutti."

187/168 - let us know what you suggest the employees do then. Hope the A/R comes in to pay off the friggin' banks, landlords and THEN hopefully there is enough left over to pay what is legally owed to employees?

If the firm/DC wants to do right by the employees it sure has a funny way of showing it. Those of us who were terminated on Oct. 17 still do not have an ETA on our last paycheck. I guess "checks are in the mail."

190 (and others who are still waiting on their last paychecks) - I recommend picking up the phone and starting to call and inquire about your money.

After reading a prior commenter's suggestion that the only people who were getting their money were the ones who asked for it, I decided to be proactive and pick up the phone and start calling.

I started with the DC, who directed me to someone else, who directed me to someone else ...

But, in the end, I finally got through to someone and they verified that my final check was sent out. "Conveniently" this final check was cut and sent out the day after I started calling people. Of course this doesn't include vacation pay, but it was my last week and a half of regular wages.

190 (and others who are still waiting on their last paychecks) - I recommend picking up the phone and starting to call and inquire about your money.

After reading a prior commenter's suggestion that the only people who were getting their money were the ones who asked for it, I decided to be proactive and pick up the phone and start calling.

I started with the DC, who directed me to someone else, who directed me to someone else ...

But, in the end, I finally got through to someone and they verified that my final check was sent out. "Conveniently" this final check was cut and sent out the day after I started calling people. Of course this doesn't include vacation pay, but it was my last week and a half of regular wages.

I received my final check a couple of days ago and I had also called last week to ask about the final check. If you do call, remember to be nice to the few fellow employees who are still there under difficult conditions. Also, what is the story about the fund list that partners created and how do I get on it?

I received my final check a couple of days ago and I had also called last week to ask about the final check. If you do call, remember to be nice to the few fellow employees who are still there under difficult conditions. Also, what is the story about the fund list that partners created and how do I get on it?

160 = Pat Gillette or someone she asked to post to the site. And thanks for the laugh regardless. Your premise is almost as hilarious as it is erroneous.

190: OK, some suggestions for you (for those in Calif. offices).

1. Send a demand letter (for the paper trail) to the Diss. Comm., demanding your accrued vacation pay, waiting time penalty under Cal labor law re your final check), and the unpaid portion of the WARN amount to Nov. 28. Probably send it to Benvenutti as chairman, care of his new office at Jones Day. (Don't know now, but when I was last at 333, mail was just piling up in bins on 9.)

2. File a DLSE claim (for the paper trail, and some leverage). Keep in mind though that the DSLE does Not enforce the labor code penalties itself. It will give you an admin order, which you are then entitled to make the basis for a Superior Court suit. Result, you can get a judgment, that will be behind the existing bank liens on assets -- i.e. right back where you are now (minus costs, attorneys fees for the suit). (I don't think most of the people hot to trot on DSLE claims understand what the enforcement end game actually is. Check it out here, if you like: http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/FAQ_WaitingTimePenalty.htm
See FAQ 17)

3. Hope they don't file bankruptcy (because then it will be years before you see some mone), but keep an eye out and file a claim promptly in the bk case if they do go that route.

4. Find somebody who knows how much the banks are still owed, and post that info here. That item would really help us with strategy concerns.

5. If you are so inclined, pray.

-- 168

195 -- this is 160. What was my premise that you found hilarous and erroneous?

Good news.

They are paying vacation now. I just got my check in the mail.

I guess I don't have to sue them after all.

Is that true? Did people get accrued vacation checks in the mail today??

198 - yes, that is great news. Were you terminated on 10/10 or 10/17?

Good news!

I saved 15% on my car insurance by switching to GEICO.

I call BS on 198. And even if they do pay vacation now, if it doesn't include Labor Code waiting time penalties and WARN Act payment, we may still have to sue.

anyone else get vactaion checks?

198, assuming you are real, were you actually terminated, or did you leave prior to the terminations? When did you leave? A little more detail would help us believe that you are not just a troll looking to stir things up.

Are there any *good* labor attorneys out there? My waiting time is almost up (30 days) and I'd like to start a new class action suit.

Here are my terms:
a) You have to have been admitted to the bar before at least 5 years.
b) I will need references (yes this means I want to talk to your other clients).

Yes, of course there are good labor attorneys in SF:

Alan Exelrod or Steven Zieff, of Rudy Exelrod & Zieff
http://www.rezlaw.com

Therese Lawless, of Lawless & Lawless
http://www. lawless-lawless.com

These are good, tough attorneys, who have litigated against Heller attorneys in labor matters; and they would be good sources of further referrals.

Good ones don't seek you out; you seek them out.

Thanks so much 205. I will call them tomorrow.

Give us an idea here (or at hellersurvivors.proboards.com) what you learn from talking with them.

-- 205

197 - try 60% or less realization.

208 -- umm, looks like you were responding to the wrong post. Might want to recheck your numbers.

i have not heard of anyone receiving vacation pay. i was terminated 10/17 and finally received my last two weeks' pay over the weekend.

198 is full of shit. Nobody has been paid for any accrued vacation.

187 - I don't understand the point of your comment as it relates to the ex-employees. By your logic, employees should wait around and hope to God that enough A/R is collected to pay off the banks AND THEN start paying what is owed to the employees (i.e. vacation, WARN, etc.). Does that sound about right? Sure the banks have the lien on assets that give them priority over the employees but what about the other creditors like the landlords, Williams Lea, and any other vendor who retains a lawyer to get them what they are paid? These creditors are represented and will get something from the Dissolution Committee because they carry the "bankruptcy stick" that you advise the employees not to use. Meanwhile we sit around hoping for that our checks are in the mail.

You made the comment that employees won't get a thing if the firm is put into bankruptcy. Why are you so sure about that? At this point, I would think the employees would fare better under a judge/trustee instead of the dolts who control the money now.

greetings bitches (especially 198 if he/she is lying).

i got's my wage claim hearing date set for 12/10. for the bent-over-bitches sitting on their duffs waiting for something honorable to happen by the dissolution committee or the banks, i'll see you on the other side!

212 - how? where are you, NY, CA? What wage claim are you talking about, regular pay, WARN, vacation? Thanks!

how was posted weeks ago on drone's site for CA people. for the rest of you, that's what google's for.

211: I did not say that employees would get nothing in a bankruptcy case. What I did say is that it would take years longer. I stand by that.

Your faith in bankruptcy judges/trustees is touching, but entirely misplaced. Trustees particularly are out for themselves first, and creditors about fourth (after the trustee's lawyers and accountants). There's a reason why 98% of bankruptcy cases are filed by the failed company, not creditors pushing an involuntary: bankruptcy is mostly better for the debtor than creditors. (Credit card companies spent millions lobbying for changes to make it more difficult for people to go into bankruptcy. Think you understand bankruptcy outcomes better than they do?)

-- 187

187, your number is appropriate. you're encouraging people to do nothing and sit idle. there are a bunch of prom dresses resting at ankle height and you want us to sit still with a bunch of perverts (heller attys) in the room and trust they'll do the right thing. how right have they done so far? have they sold or liquidated their artwork or other assets to pay their employees? the rumor mill has them POSSIBLY paying off the banks by the end of the year. here's another one... they paid off over 70% bank debt in the last 30 days! which one is true? the only BS is that the banks are "forcing" them to do whatever. there's no lien, there's only greed.

No bank lien, eh. Prove that.
One thing I do know: banks forcing certain decisions has been absolutely true.

I don't know how much bank debt they've paid off so far. Haven't said that I did know. Not acting on the basis of rumors has been a part of the whole point I want to make.

I'm not encouraging people to do nothing. I am encouraging them to be thoughtful in what they decide to do.

I have repeatedly offered people the info they would need to file a Cal state claim if that's what they want to do. And here it is again:

http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/HowToFileWageClaim.htm

if there is a bank lien preventing from paying wages and vacation, how are the banks able to pick and choose who to pay out vacation to? why have some people received vacation and others havent? how can heller offer some people extra money to stay on vs. not? why would banks offer some employees double salary and bonuses when they can hire consultants (with no vested interest in screwing heller)? ...and at half the cost?

you must not be an attorney 187. i dont have to prove a negative... you have to prove there IS a preventative order from the bank telling heller not to pay wages and vacation as dictated by law. gee, the actual dissolution document leaks... but CERTAINLY not a notarized bank statement from BofA or citi. but dont worry 187, for you, santa claus is coming to town. i think he has a fresh prom dress for you since youve been so good.

215/187 is definitely not an employee. Most likely an ex-shareholder who wants the employees to stand down while the firm collects on the A/R. There is a long list of creditors (banks & landlords at the top) but the employees are at the bottom of such list because nobody is representing their interests. No updates, no information, no comfort... "Orderly Dissolution" means keeping everyone in the dark.

218--who has received vacation? Has anyone other than 198 even claimed to have received accrued vacation?

218 - please be clear. Do you know of anyone who was terminated on 10/10 or 10/17 receiving accrued vacation pay? If the DC is picking and choosing who to pay vacation to, then we have a real problem.

187, 215 here --

I am an attorney, an employee. I am not and have never been a shareholder. I have nothing to gain from shareholders doing better out of the dissolution. Fine with me if they all get nothing. My sympathies are with associates (including me), and more so with long-time staff.

Unlike some here, I do know what I am talking about. For example, I have seen the UCC lien filing by the banks (B of A as agent for the two banks as secured party).

There is a bank blanket lien, and there is bank control of cash. Those saying otherwise are talking through their -- hats.

222/215/187 - great, you are knowledgeable about secured transactions. Nobody is disputing the fact that the banks have a lien on the assets and control of the cash since Heller breached the credit facility. The issue is what the employees can do to protect themselves. Sounds like you advocate the "wait (hope) and see" approach. What do you think will happen once the banks are finally paid off? Do you think the DC will turn its attention to the employees or the other creditors who have retained counsel to recover on their claims?

216 said: "there's no lien, there's only greed" That was incorrect. There have been other similarly incorrect assertions up above. (So, 'nobody is disputing' is incorrect as well.) Such assertions only fuel fear and anger, which tend (beyond a certain useful level) to get in the way of pursuing your real interests in a rational way.

I do know that the banks have counsel on the Heller loan. While I don't know that about landlords, I would also assume that some of them do. I would favor a group of ex-employees getting together and hiring counsel to represent them in discussions with the DC. That would Not be Nichols Kaster(or anybody like them), which -- so far as I am aware -- made no effort whatsover to engage with the DC.

The key issue, which I don't have information on, is the extent of progress toward collecting enough AR's to pay the secured banks off.

I have not suggested that 'wait and see' is the only approach for employees. I have several times posted a link to the Cal labor standards enforcement division for how to file a state admin claim for unpaid wages and accrued vacation. I have no way of telling how many people have taken that route. I would be interested in hearing (here or on one of the two ex-Heller sites) what results people are seeing from filing a DLSE claim.

how is it you've seen the lien from BofA and "...don't have information on... the extent of progress toward colllecting..."

you should at least know the dollar amount of the lien if you've seen it.

i think you haven't seen it... or you're a lying shareholder as we suspect you to be.

most likely both.

225: Don't call people liars when you have no knowledge yourself. The UCC lien is a blanket filing on all personal property, not limited in dollar amount. I have a copy of it. You can have your very own copy if you have access to Lexis.

So basically. STFU when you have nohting useful to say.

you mean as useful as discouraging illegally terminated employees from filing a lawsuit which every OTHER creditor has done to secure what they're owed? THAT useful?

take your own advice... STFU

you are DEFINITELY a shareholder.

from your posts you've proven to be:
duplicitous (a liar)
a person discouraging those that were wronged
a person siding with shareholders

let's run through the qualifications, shall we?

you SAY that you invite/encourage people to file a wage claim by posting a link. however, like john mccain you lurch from position to position (or maybe like a lawyer, go figure) first you said the lien was on A/R, THEN you said it was a blanket lien. you went as far as to argue with someone who said shareholders had hidden assets. why would banks need a blanket lien for a company with no hidden assets and a structured accounting of assets and A/R? answer: you're a liar.

back to "encouragement." your posts CONSISTENTLY discourage class action and mildy discourage wage claim filing by telling us that we'll have to "get in line" behind everyone else anyway. you've also alluded that our proper course of action was to wait it out. i have a question for you as counsel. HEY IDIOT, WHAT ARE WAGE CLAIM FILINGS AND WARN ACT CLASS ACTIONS FOR? WAITING? what happens when the money runs out? with this you are either colosally stupid or you're motivated as a shareholder... pick one.

are you ready to STFU or do you want me to get started?

To all: Take posts like 225 and 227 for what they are worth. Nothing.

to all: never take advice from a troll lawyer that tells you to do nothing about what is rightfully yours.

229 (and all of your other related numbers): just go file your wage claim and be done with it.

I'm still reading this thread hoping to find out that a) people are getting placed and are doing well; b) to find out if anyone has received their vacation pay; and c) to hear about the status of various wage claims across the HE states.

I think you have made your point that you don't trust the advice of 224/226 (and other numbers). we get it, you're hurt, you want your money, etc.

But, don't discourage the posting of information here. These are the comments of ATL for goodness sakes. Take everything with a grain of salt, some it may be true, some of it may not be.

I would like to note though that a lot of comments that seemed absolutely unbelievable in prior threads ended up being true.

In yet another HIGHLY illegal move. An attorney representing Heller called me because they are in receipt of my DLSE claim and upcoming hearing. They asked me (in a suggestive way) if I knew about the "Werth Class Action." I told them I'm "aware" of it and the person hung up.

Pretty stupid hand-tipping move on their part if you ask me.

mrs. officer...
wwwweeeeeeeeee eeeeeeewwwwwweeeeeeee eeeeeeewwwwwweeeeeeee
wwwweeeeeeeeee eeeeeeewwwwwweeeeeeee eeeeeeewwwwwweeeeeeee
wwwweeeeeeeeee eeeeeeewwwwwweeeeeeee eeeeeeewwwwwweeeeeeeet

231: why was it highly illegal for Heller's counsel to contact you? Are you represented by counsel? What inference are you drawing from their inquiry about the class action? Sounds to me like you're seeing things in the shadows.

I am 231. Why does it matter to them whether I am aware of the class action suit?

Really there's only one reason. It's either beneficial for them for me to be a part of the suit, or it's not. Given the mistakes made in that suit (including wait time penalties), I would think that they would WANT me in that suit (especially if they expect to settle). I plan on not settling as I'm entitled to all my money under the law. Barring bankruptcy (which to my knowledge hasn't been filed), I can't see why I want to be a part of the class action.

I wish "thanks uncle heller" could fit on a license plate because I plan on buying a nice vehicle with all that extra WARN and wait-time money when I get it.

Still 231, why was it highly illegal for Heller's counsel to contact you? That's a pretty serious accusation.

I agree that Heller benefits from people being a part of a class action that forecloses 27 days worth of waiting time penalties (which max out at 30 days). If and when I get my vacation pay, waiting penalties, and WARN damages, I plan on restoring the savings I am forced to live off of during this terrible market. But at least Matt Larabee (sp?) found a job.

Maybe highly illegal is a bad term since I'm not an attorney. But I'm pretty sure it breaks some ethical/moral boundary to 1) call me directly knowing I'm not represented by counsel to try to intimidate me. And 2) try to illicit information from me given circumstances detailed in 1.

I'm just a guy and I have two law firms teaming up and calling my cell phone to ask me a stupid question they could find out by talking to NKA (or whatever). I'm pretty sure the information they want (as far as who they are defending themselves against in the class action) is available by calling NKA.

Now that I think about it, they probably garnered more information than I had previously thought. They probably wanted to find out who's representing me before my hearing next month. Maybe I'll get some big wig to walk with me in there and scare the shit out of them.

Although... my case is pretty slam dunk. What they owe me is completely documented. The law is pretty straightforward with no real room for interpretation. Their willful violation of WARN and wait time was documented. I have a personal email from the director of Human Resources SAYING "we're not paying you your vacation" (paraphrasing). When a judge sees it, I seriously doubt there will be any "bank won't let us pay" sympathy.

Sorry that you were out of work so long that you had to dip into savings. I was one of the lucky ones that got a job almost immediately... However, not everything is as rosy for me as it sounds. I took a huge pay cut to get that quick employment. I make up the difference with a second job.

Tough times for everyone.

231/236: sorry for giving you a hard time about the attorney contact issue; I assumed you were an attorney too. I agree that our cases against the firm should be slam dunks. I was amazed at all the material admissions the firm made in writing. I don't think establishing liability will be difficult, but collecting on a judgment may be. We'll see. Good luck to you.

231 here again. I saw a recent email thread from someone still inside that they are almost through paying the banks off (even though it's tougher than ever right now to collect). Collections people are estimating several weeks to closure on that. So it may be a nice stick to carry to force (or threaten to force) bankruptcy on them just when the first lien or whatever is paid off.

So the collection aspect may not be as dire as previously thought.

Here's some new info: A former staff member in SF went to file a wage claim this week and was told "they are no longer accepting wage claims from Heller". Their reason? "Heller doesn't exist anymore". Can you believe that!!!

231/238: Any idea how much the firm owes its employees? Once the banks are paid off, it's basically down to landlords and us. Anyone know how the lease negotiations are going?

239 is lying to you. I don't understand the motive or reason, but I filed a wage claim today. They said it would be a few weeks before I hear back from them on a hearing date.

FYI

The employees are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Even after the banks get paid off, there's no guarantee that the DC/firm will focus on paying the employees. Landlords, Williams Lea, and any other creditor with counsel will be hitting the DC up for payment. The employees who have been sitting thru the "orderly dissolution" will just have to keep the faith and hope that enough A/R is collected so that there's enough to pay them. It would be nice for the DC to provide an update on where the collections are at or, more importantly, when they can begin to pay the employees. Once the banks are paid off, it may be a free for all....Will the DC be looking out for the employees over say some random vendor? Time will tell.

Under what theories of liability can we go after the shareholders individually (assuming they don't voluntarily pass around the collection plate to satisfy their obligations to their former employees - ha!)?

not gonna talk about legal strategy here so that my case can be foiled.

thanks.

239 is, at best, a rumor monger. False rumor at that.
The firm definitely still exists, as a legal entity with its obligations. Even formally dissolved California entities can be sued for obligations incurred prior to dissolution. Firm as a target is not going anywhere (unless it is into bankruptcy, which I still expect is less than likely).

241's info sounds right to me.

239 here, I am very happy to hear that this isn't true! I will have to question the veracity of the person who told me this information - a drama queen, to say the least, but completely confused, for sure.

Sorry, shouldn't have picked on you.
Kind of the standard style here though.

243 - you've presented a very intriguing idea. Hopefully, it won't come to that but if the employees get screwed in this "orderly dissolution", that idea will definitely be explored!

When people talk about the firm collecting enough AR to pay off associates and staff, are you thinking just of the unpaid vacation, or also of the California waiting time penalties (up to 30 days at the daily rate of pay) plus WARN Act severance? Should be the latter, but I suspect the firm is thinking of the former. Thoughts?

Isn't Heller's answer to the class action complaint due soon (or already filed)? Anyone got a copy? Please post if you do.

Heller's answer to the class action and wage claims:

We have asked our outside counsel to advise us with respect to the prioritization of the several categories of claims against the Firm of which we are aware (including claims from persons receiving this memorandum) so that we will be in a position to consider those claims after we have paid off our secured bank creditors. It is not necessary for anyone to file a formal claim against the Firm in order to preserve whatever rights he or she may have as a creditor of the Firm, whether for unpaid salary, unpaid accrued vacation, or any other matter. Should the Dissolution Committee decide in the future to require claims to be presented, all former employees and known creditors will be given ample notice of that requirement and any deadline that is imposed. Please be sure to notify the Firm of any change in your address or contact information so we can provide you with notice of any requirement to file a claim

Translation: if you don't file a claim, we won't pay your wait-time penalties or your WARN Act money.

Are there any attorneys out there that filed a wage claim and did NOT join the class action? Were you told by the DLSE to join the class action?

Isn't it improper/illegal for a state agency to refer you to a specific attorney?

RE: Your claim v. Heller Ehrman, LLP
Dear Claimant
The Division has been informed that a civil action has been initiated on behalf of former
employees of Heller Ehrman. As a result of this action being taken, the Division has
determined that it will not at this time undertake an investigation of Heller Ehrman as we
believe the suit will address the remedies available under Labor Code Section 1400 et seq.
In the event your claim currently filed with the Labor Commissioner's office is not addressed
by the class action lawsuit, the Labor Commissioner may revisit this issue and commence an
investigation pursuant to the California Warn Act. Should you have questions regarding the
class action filed against Heller, you may contact James H. Kaster or Mathew C. Helland of
Nichols Kaster, LLP at (415) 277-7235 for additional information.
Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention.
Sincerely,
Nance S. Steffen
Assistant State Labor Commissioner
Cc: Dave Gurley

Re 254: the department's position seems uninformed. First, that case is at such a premature stage, that one doesn't even know if a class will be certified and, if so, whether one will fall within the class as-certified. Second, speaking of premature, I suspect that most of us will opt out of the class anyway because those knunckleheads filed 3 days into the 30-day waiting-time-penalty period. I haven't received this communication yet from the Dept., so I'm assuming my mid-December conference is still on.

253 here. I got the same letter. Which is why I asked the question. I've never heard of a state agency turning down a claim and essentially saying "hire that lawyer *there* to handle your problem."

Seems to me this is Heller telling the DLSE that they are dealing with the issue through the class action (better for them). Or it may be NKA telling the DLSE (better for them). All means more for these sharks to make money.

I think my next move is to simply file a court case myself. It seems to me, that the case is solid and straight forward without all this "lawyering" going on.

Thanks to those that have posted updates. Please continue to do so. I filed my wage claim 2 weeks ago and haven't heard anything yet.

Seems really odd that the DLSE is throwing up their hands and saying "we can't do anything" based on a single lawsuit filed by 3 employees.

ok, 239 here - this is what I was trying to convey earlier. Anyway, this seems too convenient for both Ca Dept of Labor AND Heller AND Nicholas Kastor. In my opinion, I would think that Dept of Labor would at least process each claim. of course they can't enforce them, but to refuse to do what they are paid to do smells really fishy. I would think that DLSE claims would enhance any future lawsuits, which is where anything would utlimately end up. DLSE doesn't enforce anything, simply document it and give letters of right to sue. I think Nicholas Kastor must have bribed them. Should we contact California Attorney General? This is not right.

matthew helland and laura werth went and fucked it up for everyone else. thanks for that.

no they havent. go file your own case against heller. make sure to include court costs and fees in the suit.

their case doesnt even qualify for class action because they have no one.

Tomorrow, I will attempt to walk down to 450 Golden Gate (16th Floor) and find out what it takes to file a suit against Heller (and possibly the DLSE). I'm sure I won't win anything against the DLSE but it may wake up someone in that office to the stupidity that's going on in the SF Office. I'll post here the results if I make it in.

http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/CAND/FAQ.nsf/60126b66e42d004888256d4e007bce29/14de5a2dfcdaa08c88256ebc0054574f/$FILE/ProSeHandbook-Rev4-06a.pdf

260: yes they have. have you read the letter @ 254?

DLSE position is not unreasonable. True, class action has not been certified yet. But deadline for wage claims doesn't expire for a couple of years after employee termination. DLSE has time to wait and see whether class action flies or not, while conserving their admin costs in the meantime.

Not a result I like, but I can understand it.

Anyone thinking of suing DLSE is wasting time and money; their decision is not a basis for a cause of action.

What you should do is get a better labor attorney, and file an objection to NK as attorneys in the class action -- as bunglers on several grounds. Then dismiss the class action as improvidently filed for the time being, to permit DLSE claims to go forward.

264, are you an attorney? Your advice is the most realistic and practical advice so far on this f*****g crap. Can we hire you?

anyone else interested in hiring 264? i am.

Heller Highwater just reported that a landlord is suing Heller Ehrman for $85 million. Obviously, the dissolution committee has not worked things out with all their landlords, but, more importantly, this means the ex-employees may now be further than ever from receiving any money for accrued vacation, WARN payments, etc. The question now is whether the ex-employees who have been waiting patiently for the "orderly dissolution" to play out, should take legal action lest they lose their place in line! Thoughts?

#
# Taxpayeron 30 Dec 2008 at 10:20 pm

If DLSE did something wrong and violation, please write a complaint letter to The Governor and to your State Lawmakers. If possible also send a copy of your letter to your U.S. Labor Department, Federal Lawmakers and the U.S. President as well to let them know those laws unenforced violators who are unfit to serve the public and needed to be removed out of the DLSE offices. Good Lucks and Happy New Year!!!
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# Tom Walkeron 06 Feb 2009 at 2:50 pm

No dissing the DLSE here, sure they’re backed up - what isn’t. It’s humorous to watch 5 years of gutted budgets for these Calif admin and enforcement agencies, then listen to Calif. taxpayers whine about delays, lack of attention, and lack of resources. Just what did we expect would happen? And, as far as inconsistent outcomes, are guarenteed outcomes available in our local courts? Not the courts I’m going to. As far as my dissing the Commissioners and staff, I’ll wait until their budget increases by 200-500%, then I’ll start making my demands that they improve their game. For right now, I’m glad they’re doing the quality job they are and they have my support.
#
# DLSE Victimon 04 Mar 2009 at 7:06 pm

I can understand and my heart goes out to the DLSE for their backed up case load. They’ve told me there’s only 10 investigators for the entire State of California.

That said, as an employee trying to get a fair hearing, it seems that when the “Investigator” finally gets around to working on one’s case they don’t have much interest in arriving at the truth. They seem to want what is expedient, and they will mold the evidence into it’s exact opposite if they need it to fit. My “investigator” said “I need to get this off my desk” the same day she informed me of her faulty investigation and my inability to rebut a single error she had made in her slipshod investigation.

When a DLSE Deputy informed me she had finally “finished” her investigation (years after it was filed), she told me some very inaccurate information she gathered from another office of the DLSE. Basically, the employer lied to another Deputy about the policy I was fired for complaining about, the DLSE Deputy caught the Employer and reopened the case due to the fraud - and it was mistakenly closed by someone else. This “Investigator” told me to my face it was *never* closed, and took a year to close the original case(!). Even on an Appeal that noted this, the next “investigator” cut-and-pasted the wrong information from the first one, using it to justify her support of the lying Employer. I am in possession of the actual DLSE database that was in place when the “Investigator” visited, and it clearly shows the reopening - without a doubt.

Since the Determinations were (allegedly) reviewed by 2 Deputies, the Labor Commissioner and the Director of Industrial Relations, I can only surmise that either rampant corruption or incompetence is the DLSE’s guiding principle.

I can understand being overwhelmed in your work, but that’s no excuse for not doing a proper job when you finally get around to working on a case. It serves nobody to change or disregard the evidence that does not fit your prejudices.
#
# Eliesa Brownon 21 Mar 2009 at 3:41 pm

This will chill you to the bone , I recieved unemployment, company was audited by EDD for failure to report payroll tax, then the underground economy found they had not covered workers for workers compensation insurance, and threatened thier contractors licience, I recieved workers comp. settlement, Bla Bla Bla, and the DLSE said I was an independant contractor, I went to de novo hearing the judge Scott L. Kays , ruled I was a Independnat contractor, I contracted The Govenor, who requested a investigation, later I recieved a letter from the Commissioner who stated I was not an Independant contractor, and fired the hearing oficer who made that “bias” mistake.it was too late cause I was then at the appellate level, but the Courts in Solano County seen the letters but still kept the same ruling, i was hospitilized after that, but I continue to think what could wedo? well i have 10 years legal exp. and have great conections, and I will be soon writing the president, and anything I can do to stop the crupt activity of the DLSE, and California employees.
dont forget Arnold is for BIG BIZ and he apponted these people and judges and heads of these administrative agencies.

lets put heads together and “CHANGE” the labor laws and proceedures of the DLSE
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# Another DLSE Victimon 25 Mar 2009 at 12:42 am

Elisa Brown and DLSE Victim,
You can also write to Los Angeles Times newspaper and ACLU to look into a class action lawsuit since there are too many victims because of unlawful action of the DLSE.

To 261
DLSE' stupidity is not violating the law. Involving in corruption, bribery, altering, and withholding evidences to unlawful dismiss the claim are violating of the law, especially someone's basic right under State and Federal Constitution has been violated by DLSE. The best way is to contact medias, ACLU, your Lawmakers, US Attorney General-Eric Holder, and President-Obama.

Do I have to be over 50 to think gangbusters is cool?

Please follow the links below:
http://www.ocblog.net/ocblog/2007/06/in_the_wtiness_.html
http://www.ocblog.net/ocblog
to see how the insider and other discussed the truth about DLSE.