Illinois To Follow Michigan's Attempt To Disregard The LSAT
Last month, we told you about the Wolverine scholars program. The program allows students with a 3.8 GPA at Michigan to bypass the LSAT when applying to Michigan Law School.
Apparently those exacting standards were too draconian for Illinois College of Law. They are now offering an Early Admission Program for Illinois college students that also allows them to bypass the LSAT:
The biggest differences between the two programs involve GPA and additional requirements. Applicants to the University of Michigan will require a 3.8 GPA, while applicants to the University of Illinois will need at least a 3.0 GPA.However, the University of Michigan will not have separate additional requirements, while the University of Illinois will require additional essays and interviews.
Instant analysis after the jump.
A 3.0 GPA and no LSAT for admission into a top tier law school? To quote Seth Meyers and Amy Poehler, "really?" I suggested that Michigan's program was a way to game the U.S. News rankings (a charge Sarah Zearfoss, dean of admissions at UM Law, denies). But if anything, admitting students with a 3.0 GPA and no LSAT score would seem to hurt Illinois's rankings.
The median GPA at Illinois College of Law is 3.49, the median LSAT score is 164. Are they honestly saying that college students at Illinois (the 40th ranked University) who can only manage a GPA in the low threes should gain admission to the 27th best law school, without having to score in the mid-160s on the LSAT?
Oh, but there are "additional requirements."
"Not all GPAs are created equally," [Paul Pless, the law school's assistant dean for Admissions] said. "Even at U of I not all GPA is created equal. A 3.4 in electrical engineering is a good GPA. However, in my own major of political science, 3.4 is not towards the high end."
I thought the LSAT was a proxy for smoothing over some of these differences between the strength of one's undergraduate program, but apparently "essays and interviews" can do the trick just as well.
It's the cynicism of these programs that I find disturbing. A 3.0 at Illinois turns the LSAT into a useless metric for gaining admission into Illinois College of Law, but if you have a 3.0 at Northwestern the LSAT is suddenly very important again to Illinois deans.
And both Illinois's program and the Michigan version seem designed to help law schools much more than they help students:
Joe Hinchliffe, attorney and professor of political science, said he was concerned that undergraduates who wanted to pursue a law degree now might think they no longer need to take the LSAT. This would be a serious mistake, he added."If they are strong enough for an early admissions program, then they are probably strong enough for scholarships and other opportunities that they won't know about unless they take the LSAT," Hinchliffe said.
There are real problems with the LSAT as a tool for law school admissions, but I don't see how making up "pretend factors" helps anybody's cause.
UI changes law school admission program [DailyIllini]
Earlier: University Of Michigan Law School: Please Stop The Insanity
(109) Comments
first
this is utterly not interesting to a nervous T-10 1L. i need more information about jobs this summer. i can't wait until my meeting on november 3rd with career services!
-nervous T-10 1L
Guys at my high school used to maintain 3.0 GPAs all the time. It was no big deal.
- Prospective Illinois Law Student
A 3.0 at U of I? They'll have thousands of kids in every class unless they are total interview flops. What a joke. Take the LSAT and pay your dues bitches.
Does any of this change the fact that A Law Degree from Illinois is not worth the money you pay for it?
InsTTTant analysis? Srsly?
Illinois student: Save the Chief!
The rest of the world: You are a racist piece of excrement.
N.B. Illinois 45, Michigan 20
I am still shocked that there has been no widespread use of class action litigation against the T3-T4 diploma mills that knowingly spew forth grads with heavy five- and six figure debt with little or no prospect of employment that has has a chance at allowing the debt to be paid off prior to old age.
Old news... where's the story on connecticut gay marriage?!
7: Michigan T10, Illinois TTT
8- assumption of the risk. I went to a T4, but I didn't have biglaw aspirations and instead pursued a career in government, which does hire from these lower tier schools. I also went to a cheap state school (12k/yr) and wasn't a jackass paying 45k/yr at NYLS for a shit degree. I got my shit degree for cheap and have a decent job with government, which once your in the "system" you can move up into more lucrative jobs after 5 yrs or so, and I will have significantly less debt.
Word to the wise: if you bagged on the LSATs like I did by being hungover in my junior year, not studying, and not retaking it, you get what you bargain for. Therefore, DONT GO TO AN EXPENSIVE T3-T4 because you WILL NOT get a job that will be able to make the payments.
Or do what I should have done and launder your LSAT by busting your ass for a year at a T4, get a 4.0 or close, and then transfer to a T1-T2 (if you live in CT, UConn is a top 50 and freely admits state residents with low LSATs)
CT GAY MARRIAGE STORY PLZ
This actually is BS. It will be even greater BS when everyone admitted through these programs just happens to be a minority and the UMich and Illinois LSAT numbers jump.
what lsat score do i need to guarantee me a spot in WILDMAN HARROLD's stop sign law department? does anyone know who reviews their applications? will it matter if my note on octagon visibility is scheduled for publication in the journal of ocular geomtry? please advise.
Penn state is going to do something similar for its JD/MBA program if students do the MBA fist and get a certain grade at the Warton school. I haven't heard what the grade is though.
They are also gaming the US News system in two ways. First they will get lot more applicants that they will reject. Second if one assumes that they want certain students with a 3.0 GPA from Illinois for affirmative action or legacy reasons, it makes sense that they don't also want those students correspondingly low LSAT scores. Don't think for a second that the average 3.0 student is going to get in without taking the LSAT and doing extremely well.
They are also gaming the US News system in two ways. First they will get lot more applicants that they will reject. Second if one assumes that they want certain students with a 3.0 GPA from Illinois for affirmative action or legacy reasons, it makes sense that they don't also want those students correspondingly low LSAT scores. Don't think for a second that the average 3.0 student is going to get in without taking the LSAT and doing extremely well.
Who is/are the asshole(s) that think(s) these Wildman Harold jokes are funny? Can you maybe enlighten the rest of us as to why you get such a kick out of that partcular firm?
STFU with your provocative headline. You know full well that Michigan's program would only admit 5 people per year max.
Elie,
No one cares about your opinions (they are usually either stating the obvious or aren't particular well thought out or expressed). We care about being entertained. Expressing opinions is thus a means to an end. A frivolous opinion can be funny -- Lat was very good at this. On serious issues, try being more like a reporter (on the one hand . . ., on the other hand . . .). Multiple paragraphs of editorializing without any (well executed) attempts at levity are simply a waste of everyone's time. After all, the time we spend on ATL is generally procrastination time, not time spent trying to develop informed views on the admissions policies of various law schools.
5, considering I'm paying nothing for my Illinois degree and I'm getting paid $160k/year because of it, I'd say you're wrong.
As an Illinois student, I really hope the school raises the GPA minimum for this early application crap. Don't devalue my degree!
5 is a contract attorney. Illinois is probably the cheapest T1 school in the nation and they do pretty well with large firm placement. My firm and many others in Chicago are crawling with Illinois law grads. Say what you want about Chicago or the midwest, but as long as its a major market paying 160, who the hell cares?
I second 21's comment. If you're an Illinois resident, it is hard to top the cheap state tuition and job opportunities that Illinois offers. That's true of most of the Big Ten law schools. Sure, going to Harvard at the cost is always going to be worth it, but there is definitely something to be said for graduating with minimal debt and still having ample BigLaw / judicial clerkship / other desirable job opportunities.
As for this program, I wouldn't be surprised to see all the Big Ten schools follow this path. While I don't personally like it as a Big Ten law grad, I think it makes sense for the Big Ten schools.
I went to Illinois and guess what....I make the same salary as the Harvard kid down the hall. The only difference is that I owe 100K less in loans.
is it possible for people who lack a sense of humor to get a job at WILDMAN HARROLD? i can't tell a hilarious joke from my butt, but my article on NATO's effect on the chili cheese dog trade got rave reviews from bratislava's leading authority on the regulation of flatulence-inducing gastronomy. please advise.
Elie -- you have a small brain. This program is probably not that big of a deal -- just like the Michigan program. They say you need a 3.0 to even be considered for the program. This is just an arbitrary cutoff before all the interviews, essays, etc. This is not equivalent to saying "Hey, you got a 3.0? Great! You can now come to Illinois College of Law!"
Quit trying to create mountains out of mole hills. Go find some real news. Nobody cares to read posts from the Elie Spin Zone.
MysTTal
Will Penn State Philly Campus follow the Big Ten trend here?
UI will NOT admit anyone with a 3.0 - thats simply a way for them to boost the applications that are denied. As an alum, I remember the school despising UI undergrads and preferring out of state students who paid more and performed better. Only UI undergrads with 3.7s were considered.
Elie -- you have a small brain. This program is probably not that big of a deal -- just like the Michigan program. They say you need a 3.0 to even be considered for the program. This is just an arbitrary cutoff before all the interviews, essays, etc. This is not equivalent to saying "Hey, you got a 3.0? Great! You can now come to Illinois College of Law!"
Quit trying to create mountains out of mole hills. Go find some real news. Nobody cares to read posts from the Elie Spin Zone.
MysTTal
another outstanding post, but please tell me - what impact will this have on WILDMAN HARROLD's babysitting law practice area?
UPenn State-Philly is the premier public law school in the nation. If they adopt this, there is a real chance some Ivy law schools will follow.
I'd bypass the LSAT if KASH let me get to know her a little better. I bet she's a beast in the sack. Would love to see more of that rockin' bod.
This is a non-issue. The flexibility is essentially for engineering students, not for the mass population of students at the University. U. of I.'s engineering program is notoriously diffiult and on average takes 5 years to complete. A B+ average, as Mr. Pless stated is on the high end for an engineering student. With a class size of 175, I doubt many will be admitted anyway. Besides, as an alum, I can tell you that they are absolutely trying to game the rankings every way they can and there is no way they will lower the median G.P.A. for this program. They will not act against their self interest and if they do, the market (U.S. News & WR) will penalize them. Also, you might want to, unless you mistook this for an admissions board, focus on the job market.
HTH
U MICH IS A SHIT SCHOOL IN A SHITHOLE OF A STATE SUCK MY MANTITS SARAH C ZEARFOSS!
I'd bypass the LSAT if KASH let me get to know her a little better. I bet she's a beast in the sack. Would love to see more of that rockin' bod.
This is a non-issue. The flexibility is essentially for engineering students, not for the mass population of students at the University. U. of I.'s engineering program is notoriously diffiult and on average takes 5 years to complete. A B+ average, as Mr. Pless stated is on the high end for an engineering student. With a class size of 175, I doubt many will be admitted anyway. Besides, as an alum, I can tell you that they are absolutely trying to game the rankings every way they can and there is no way they will lower the median G.P.A. for this program. They will not act against their self interest and if they do, the market (U.S. News & WR) will penalize them. Also, you might want to, unless you mistook this for an admissions board, focus on the job market.
HTH
Listen, I'm an engineer, and it DOES NOT take much to get over a measly 3.0. Even Illinois scoffs at averages that low in materials relating to graduate programs in Engineering:
http://online.engr.uiuc.edu/degrees/mechanical.htm
Elie, the economy as we know it is spiraling downward. Is this the best you got?
38 did not go to Illinois. All engineers are not created equally.
I can't imagine anyone avoiding the LSAT just for the chance at this, because you have no idea how many students will be admitted under the program, and the only school you could possibly go to would be Illinois. Just take the damn test, fools!
38: How was the engineering program at Indiana State University? Cutting edge stuff, eh?
Yeah, Illinois is so much harder than MIT. Only Einstein can get that 3.0.
41 - My thoughts exactly. Nobody will not take the LSAT to have a remote chance to get into Illinois.
38 - lol @ mechanical. Electrical = 10(Mechanical)
This is not about engineers. This is about boosting the number of applications and sneaking in URM's without reporting their LSAT scores. Love how these TTT Illinois law grads try to pretend like there is nothing underhanded about this.
Anybody looking to rip on Illinois Engineering is just out of their mind. It's a giant state school and it's nearly as good as Cal, MIT, Carnegie, etc. for many engineering disciplines.
U-Penn State Philly Campus early action policy will only apply to students from the University Park campus and not those from the satellite campus.
22 - I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but your Illinois (read: TTT) degree wasn't worth shit before Illinois adopted this new admission policy. Michigan is the only one who stands a chance of devaluing their degree, but because of the stringent requirements of their policy, that won't happen. Simply put, Illinois law is pure trash. Enjoy your horrendous career prospects, cockneck.
-SLS 3L
$160k: UM top 90%; UofI top 10%.
(Yes, yes: Juice >> Threet.)
50: is it really that bad? I'm at another Illinois law school and I get the sense that most U of I types can land BigLaw if they're in the top third. Their firm might not be Kirkland, but the Chicago market is commodious, and most NU/Chicago (mostly the latter) types go elsewhere.
22 - You are a pompous self-important ass. I hope I get to kick your ass some day.
49 (NOT 22) - You are a pompous self-important ass. I hope I get to kick your ass some day.
Juice >>>>>>>>> Threet
Also, 50, I think that you severely underestimate the Illinois alumni network. It's probably stronger than UChicago's and at least as strong as Northwestern's. I'm an Illinois native and it seems like everyone went to Champaign *at some point*: your kid brother, a neighbor, some guy you met at the Jewel while buying produce, et cetera.
That said, I don't go to Illinois, and I don't know how it would fare in this economy. But I think that, as long as you go back to Chicago, it can't be a bad deal, especially with cheap in-state tuition.
51, your sense has no relation to reality.
56 - Have you ever touched a woman? ... Or a man for that matter?
48, I think your confusing two school??
"Illinois's program"
Really??????
another outstanding post, but please tell me - what impact will this have on WILDMAN HARROLD's babysitting law practice area?
tell me about teh wildman harrold meme
Does Wildman Harold recruit at UPenn State-Philly?
I don't understand the Wildman meme, either. One of my friends is actually leaning toward working for them, so perhaps I should suggest otherwise thanks to ATL.
@21: What was your class rank?
Re: Wildman Harrold
It's just some tool who thinks that the law firm's name is hilarious. And he's right.
Ok, I never comment on here but I have noticed a trend that is worth noting:
Every time that Michigan is mentioned in a negative way on this site the comments inevitably contain a string of comments pretending to mistakenly conflate the University of Pennsylvania with Penn State.
Is it possible, just possible, that insecure students are attempting to take the heat off of their own school by making a lame, overused joke about another school?
Ok, I never comment on here but I have noticed a trend that is worth noting:
Every time that Michigan is mentioned in a negative way on this site the comments inevitably contain a string of comments pretending to mistakenly conflate the University of Pennsylvania with Penn State.
Is it possible, just possible, that insecure students are attempting to take the heat off of their own school by making a lame, overused joke about another school?
67, the connection is a lot more obvious than that: both Michigan and Penn are state schools with prominent football programs. That's why they're always mentioned together on this site.
Hey Illinois Grads -- Have fun slaving over your crappy med mal "work."
66 here with one more comment:
Michigan is an excellent school. Anyone who goes there should be proud. I am just saying that the Penn jokes are ridiculous.
7 - Michigan football will be better next year, but Illinois will still suck.
- smug Michigan 1L
7 - Michigan football will be better next year, but Illinois will still suck.
- smug Michigan 1L
71 - Plz watch last week's game. K, thnkz.
73 - It's "k thx," asshole. People messing up kitteh is almost as bad as people messing up FRAT STUD.
- Not 71/72
I have to comment.
Elie, as you seem to be aware of, this policy does not make sense from a US News bumping standpoint. You still conclude, however, that this is like Michigan's attempt to bump their rankings. How could it possibly be an attempt at that? This is not a sinister maneuver, it is an attempt to keep students more students in-state.
Let me explain. Illinois, as a state, makes large investments in its students from K-college. In particular when the state is giving these students cheap college tuition, Illinois wants something back. Most Illinois law students stay and work in Illinois. Illinois, as a state, therefore has an incentive to steer their undergraduate investments into the law school, which is likely to keep them in state, returning on the investment in their previous schooling. Stacking the law school with students from out of state, on the other hand, excludes the in-state investments. Moreover, it brings in students who are more likely to leave after their law school education is complete. Illinois, as a state, would much rather give a law student cheap tuition in exchange for them staying in state after they graduate than collect higher tuition from someone who will leave.
This is not a US News tactic. It has very little in common with Michigan's policy.
This is elementary, Elie. You have the deductive reasoning of a Down Syndrome baby.
All the "TTT"ing and "T14"ing and "T10"ing will not erase the fact that you elitist bitches make the same salary as I do and have to pay a couple thousand a month for the next 20 years. Epic fail.
-Top maybe 40% 2L making 3100/wk next summer.
All the "TTT"ing and "T14"ing and "T10"ing will not erase the fact that you elitist bitches make the same salary as I do and have to pay a couple thousand a month for the next 20 years. Epic fail.
-Top maybe 40% 2L making 3100/wk next summer.
76 = TTT. 40 years from now, you'll be able to say "38 years ago I made as much as Harvard/Michigan/Cornell grads." Congratulations.
All the "TTT"ing and "T14"ing and "T10"ing will not erase the fact that you elitist bitches make the same salary as I do and have to pay a couple thousand a month for the next 20 years. Epic fail.
-Top maybe 40% 2L making 3100/wk next summer.
79 = TTT
What percentage of T14 grads are dbags? Based on my exposure to them on ATL, I would guess at least 70 percent.
ZOOK >>> DICK ROD
81 - You're underestimating.
- T14 grad, part-time online d-bag
Bo > Carr > Zook > Dick Rod > Holtz > Weis
76 - Your TTT ass may be making the same $160,000 as a first year associate, but I'd be willing to bet that you won't be at a V20 firm; instead, you'll be at some joke of a TTT firm in a TTT market. Oh, and I wouldn't be bragging about your ability to make $3,100/week NEXT summer. If you haven't noticed, the market has gone to shit and a TTT student like you has a much greater chance of getting your offer rescinded than a T-14 student. Also, there is a strong likelihood that you will get no-offered by your summer associate firm because your writing skills and general ability is consistent with your TTT status. That is all, you cockneck.
85 - True. Nicely done.
81 FTW
85 = insecure
I think 85 is also 49. Either that, or "cockneck" is a much more common diss than I thought. In any case, dude sucks.
81 -
In all seriousness, people act very differently online than they do in person. I don't think you can read anything into what people post online. Most of the condescension on ATL is shtick.
Of course a T14 grad (i.e. non-fucktard) would know this.
Illinois rules. I got a very nice 2.8 in the engineering program, and now I'm on the IP highway to 160k despite my TTT law school and bottom half grades.
UI Engineers to 190k!
well played, 90
Uh,
The median GPA is actually 3.59 and median LSAT is 166.
http://www.law.uiuc.edu/global/classprofiles.asp
Elie you're supposed to fact check before posting. 1 demerit.
90--
So you're saying T14 grads are not only fucktards, but cowards as well, requiring the anonymity of the internet to express their fucktarditude?
94 -
My thoughts exactly.
Illinois Grads >= T14 Grads
Please, give it up you pathetic Illinois fucks.
35 -- Rejection letters are already going out?
You have to also remember that this is the helicopter generation. These kids are so used to being handed everything and that if their 3.0 GPA in applied jacking isn't enough, Mommy and Daddy will make a phone call and write a check.
The Baby-Boomers always said they wanted to change the world. They have. They have wrecked it financially and raised a generation of children that can't cope with Big-Boy life. I can't wait to get these half-wits in court.
99 - crotchety old Baby Boomer who just got laid off from Wildman Harrold's penis pump products liability department.
100-bitter helicopter child who only got a 3.0 in Applied Jacking due to injury suffered from defective penis pump.
85: Full of shit. Ceteris Paribus, the name on your degree means little in deciding whether or not to offer someone. Your work product and attitude are far more meaningful, and we all know T14ers have no advantage in either of those.
obviously, this is the way to boost minority enrollment
78 = Cornell troll
102 - Reread 85's post you stupid fuck. The central point was that a TTT student has a much greater likelihood of getting his offer rescinded prior to the start of the summer. Work product and attitude are unknown until the TTT cockneck starts work. You sir, are a TTT fuckneck.
What the hell is University of Pennsylvania State Philly?
Wait Wait Wait. People on here brag about their schools? That's how you determine your self worth? That's fuckin hilarious, I love it!
Dean Smith: Shut this program down! If you have ANY desire to preserve our ranking and prestige, please do not allow people who don't know how to work hard in a short period of time, studying for a horribly difficult test, to attend our school. The Bar exam, and even practice require the capacity to force yourself to do extreme amounts of work in a short period of time. If we have people at our school who can't do that, they won't be able to pass the bar exam or get a job. Please, stop this program!
Signed,
An Alumni at a Big Firm
Why all the "TTT"? Illinois is in the first tier (rank 27), not the third tier. Or does the "TTT" label simply apply to any school ranked lower than your own? Does Harvard get to call Yale a TTT?