Lawyers You’ll Swear At, Not Work For
Many people have interviewing horror stories. But few people actually bother to send a letter to the offending firm.
One Georgetown University Law Center student did just that. After her interview with Harris Beach, the student sent a letter to James Spitz, CEO of Harris Beach:
I was looking forward to the interview until Mr. Frederick Fern and Ms. Judi Abbott Curry entered the conference room. This was the worst and most unprofessional interview that I have ever been on. Not only did Mr. Fern insult me by repeatedly stating that “the only reason” I had received the interview was because my “mom or somebody” had “called in a favor,” he then suggested that I was lazy because I did not have a job yet. “What have you been doing since July?” he kept exclaiming.I didn’t even know how to respond. When I finally responded, he proceeded to read a document or tap on the table with his pen while I spoke. It was awful.
Harris Beach’s firm motto is “Lawyers you’ll swear by, not at.” It is worth noting that our own personal experiences with Harris Beach attorneys have been positive and professional. But perhaps these particular attorneys could have used a little more tact when dealing with a student trying to navigate these uncertain employment waters.
The full memo after the jump.
Harris Beach representatives declined to comment for this story. But the student had additional allegations:
Ms. Curry was more professional. However, she still lectured me about my inexperience in interviewing and stated that if I wanted a job in this bad economy, I needed to read up more on pharmaceuticals. She also suggested that I look for jobs with diversity initiatives who take “black females” over white Jewish guys. This surprised me. From my experience in employment law, I know that interviewers are strongly encouraged to not discuss race or gender in interviews.
This student did not receive an offer from Harris Beach.
Because the firm declined to comment, we don’t know if the firm believes the allegations of this student. If they do, we don’t know if the attorneys who participated in this interview have been reprimanded or disciplined in any way.
What we do know is that one student was all kinds of angry after her Harris Beach interview, and tried to alert the proper person at the firm. We hope that her experience was aberrational.
HARRIS BEACH — EMAIL — UNPROFESSIONAL INTERVIEWING
Dear Sir:
As the CEO and the director of diversity at Harris Beach, PLLC, it is my responsibility to inform you of the following unprofessional behavior I received during an interview for a first year associate position at Harris Beach, PLLC. I was looking forward to the interview until Mr. Frederick Fern and Ms. Judi Abbott Curry entered the conference room. This was the worst and most unprofessional interview that I have ever been on. Not only did Mr. Fern insult me by repeatedly stating that “the only reason” I had received the interview was because my “mom or somebody” had “called in a favor,” he then suggested that I was lazy because I did not have a job yet. “What have you been doing since July?” he kept exclaiming. I didn’t even know how to respond. When I finally responded, he proceeded to read a document or tap on the table with his pen while I spoke. It was awful.
Ms. Curry was more professional. However, she still lectured me about my inexperience in interviewing and stated that if I wanted a job in this bad economy, I needed to read up more on pharmaceuticals. She also suggested that I look for jobs with diversity initiatives who take “black females” over white Jewish guys. This surprised me. From my experience in employment law, I know that interviewers are strongly encouraged to not discuss race or gender in interviews.
I did not walk out of the interview and I was polite. … The associate in the room was noticeably shocked with the partners’ behavior. She even apologized to me when we left the room and she walked me out. I just don’t understand. If these partners were so disinterested in me as a candidate, then why did they call me in in the first place? I am working hard to obtain employment, and for Mr. Fern to state that “I should have a job by now” and that I wasn’t working with career services was really insulting.
Needless to say, he did not thank me for coming in, shake my hand, or even stand up as I left.
I hope this information can assist you in enforcing your diversity and hiring policies
(122) Comments
Comments
Figgity first
Um....if that is how she writes (her opening clause "as the CEO..." implies that she is the CEO, not that she is writing TO the CEO), then is it fair to suggest that she needs to work on that?
"As the CEO and the director of diversity at Harris Beach, PLLC, it is my responsibility to inform you of the following unprofessional behavior I received during an interview for a first year associate position at Harris Beach, PLLC."
That sentence implies that the candidate is the CEO of Harris Beech. Poorly written. I bet she's stupid, and I would have treated her the same way in the interview. And then, I would have sucker punched her in the neck.
I was going to bitch about her calling herself the CEO, but #s 2 and 3 beat me to it. And it's October - if she graduated in June, the question is fair enough. There aren't enough facts to say what really went on, but I'm underwhelmed by the applicant.
"As the CEO and the director of diversity at Harris Beach, PLLC, it is my responsibility to inform you of the following unprofessional behavior I received during an interview for a first year associate position at Harris Beach, PLLC."
Most people (I think) would read this sentence and think that the letter comes FROM the CEO/diversity director... but no, it's being sent TO that person.
Given the quality of the letter, I wonder how that person got an interview. Maybe her mom called in a favor.
Seriously, though, the interviewers sounded like d-bags.
Another way we know that GULC is run by Sally Struthers. F'n diploma-mill-profit-center for Georgetown.
Jesus Christ Above the Law must be the most concentrated group of Grammar Nazi's on the Interweb...
Then again that opening sentance is pretty bad.
Agree with 2 & 3!
You got GULCed
7, it's clarity Nazis, not grammar Nazis.
No one's criticizing anyone's use of who/whom.
Elie,
Thanks for the GULCtacular post!
~Fan
Harris Beach is a bunch of backstabbers. I summered there a few years ago and was told I was getting an offer at the end of the summer, but no formal offer came. When the NALP deadline was creeping up, I got in touch with them to find out when the offer was coming. They told me not to worry and that they simply had to run it by the executive committee for final approval. The deadline passed and I finally got word that they were no-offering me and other summer associates as well. It was fine by me because I had already landed a federal appellate clerkship, but with the way they handled my situation I'm not surprised that this happened.
does anyone want to call in any favors and get me an interview? please?
-nervous T-10 1L
6 = disgruntled GW student.
7 - you mean "sentence"?
Grammar aside, 'ol Fred Fern sounds like an a-hole. And if my name was Fred Fern, I'd be probably be one too. At least he found the right line of work.
"From my experience in employment law ..."
Huh? She's in law school. What sort of "experience" is she referring to?
Huh, I thought all interviewers discussed race and gender in interviews!
The third sentence is not much better: "This was the worst and most unprofessional interview that I have ever been on." Although some people now think that it is acceptable to end sentences with prepositions (I still do not like it), I do not think that people go "on" interviews. I also think that this one is horrible: "then why did they call me in in the first place?"
if you accept what she says is true then these attorneys should be seriously reprimanded. these attorneys have NO tact. they could easily dismiss this girl (perhaps because of her poor grammar) without blatantly violating federal law.
Nervous T-10,
If you'd like, give me your name and I'll call in some favors when your recruiting season starts in December.
You can just post it on this site.
Thanks,
V10 Associate
This is the practical result of "diversity committees" forcing interviews with unqualified blacks. I would have given her the same treatment. She is clearly retarded.
AA to 0!!
Get over the grammar. This kind of courage and assertiveness far makes up for a couple of writing problems. This girl rocks.
The partners may have been uninterested in her, but not "disinterested."
Sounds like Mr. Fern might just be abusing the chance to be on the other side of the table.
For someone who took 5 years to finally receive an undergrad degree from "Northeastern University, College of Pharmacy and Allied Health Professionals", and then got his JD from St. Louis University, I can't imagine interviews came fast and furious for him.
19 - you don't go 'on' an interview? What do you do?
Sounds like a GULC night student tbh... anyone from the day program should have a job already. Then again, she might just be a complete mess in interviews - she admitted to not being able to respond to a question, despite repeatedly being asked it. Plus, the other partner pointed out her inexperience at interviewing. How the F can you be inexperienced at interviewing when its already that late in the year?
19 - you don't go 'on' an interview? What do you do?
Also, Fred Fern has two jobs, apparently:
http://www.fredfern.com/
21 - which v10,? i don't want to spend my 1L summer at skadden, i would rather work for free.
-nervous T-10 1L
Would you guys shut the fuck up about grammar? The comments on this site used to be about the substantive contents of the posts, but now they are all about grammar. Give it a rest.
Elie,
Could you do something about the grammar comments? They are bringing down the content of the blog.
I feel bad for her, graduating from GULC and competing for jobs with her 12,000 classmates.
Wow. Do they even teach legal writing at GULC? I was so confused by the letter. I thought the student was the CEO and director of diversity (not to mention the other errors).
These grammar comments are awesome, I am bad at grammars and I can use these comments to improve my writing
TTT firm with TTT attorneys. Are you f' kidding me -- there's a St. Louis Law School?
http://www.harrisbeach.com/attorneys/attorneybio.cfm?aid=57
30, I do not think it is possible to comment "about the substantive contents of" this post without discussing the author's grammar/lack of clarity. If she wants to be taken seriously by the recipient , she will fail given the clear lack of intellect in her letter.
This is a classic example of a person who was afraid of banking interviews in undergrad so they applied to law school instead. Now that they got a "real" interview they are all shook up.
Moreover, you went to GULC. You're lucky they even spoke to you.
A lot of guys from my high school wrote to the CEO. No big deal.
27 - Agreed. No way I would walk into this interview and not already have a canned answer for what I had been doing all summer.
Grammar aside, 'ol Fred Fern sounds like an a-hole. And if my name was Fred Fern, I'd be probably be one too. At least he found the right line of work.
I tried getting an interview with Harris Beach a few years back for employment during my 1L summer. All bsing aside, I have never dealt with more unprofessional people in an employment context in my life.
@ 25
Northeastern is generally a five-year institution because of co-op. And, their pharm program is actually fairly decent. I can't speak to the rest of the school, though, as I am ignorant on those topics. Check US News.
The first sentence is awesome. Maybe after the interview, she thought she was the CEO. She then follows a "not only" with a "then." What happened to "but also" in that sentence?
17, don't be an idiot. You don't know if law is her second career and she could have also been refering to her employment course
From what I've heard, a lot of lawyers at HB got their jobs through connections or "favors." I had a contact with the managing partner who was supposed to get me a 1L summer gig in the New York office. Needless to say, the NY partner I interviewed with had never heard of me, and my experience wasn't that far off from what this girl describes.
And I thought I was an asshole. This Freddy Fern guy...wow...he's just slightly more asshole-ish than me. Which, I guess makes me TTT as far as assholes go.
PR strategy to move from TTT firm with lawyers from schools nobody has ever heard from to Vault "Most Selective" firm?
I can't speak to the accuracy of this account, but it seems awfully tacky (at a minimum) to post the names of the attorneys who supposedly conducted this interview. Has this site been turned over to autoadmit or something?
I can't speak to the accuracy of this account, but it seems awfully tacky (at a minimum) to post the names of the attorneys who supposedly conducted this interview. Has this site been turned over to autoadmit or something?
Nervous,
It's not Skadden. Give me your name and I'll help you out.
21
Nervous T-10 1L,
Liar! You'd work anywhere this summer for a paycheck.
6 and 36 = pathetic GW, GMU or CUA students trolling GULC simply because they couldn't get in. To say it another way, they are true cocknecks.
37 -
Terrible 'Frat Stud' post...numerous ways you could have approached this:
1. Guys at my high school used to compose poorly written letters to HR reps after being humiliated in a job interview all the time. It was no big deal. OR;
2. Guys at my high school used to insult unqualified candidates during job interviews all the time. It was no big deal. OR;
3. Guys at my high school would demonstrate in job interviews why using GULC as an adverb or adjective was appropriate. It was no big deal.
FRAT STUD
Harris Beach = Howard Beach
How could you NOT be a douchebag with a name like Frederick Fern?
52 -- Cut 37 some slack. Guys at my high school used to fail miserably in their ill-conceived, half-baked attempts at frat studdery all the time. 'Twas no big deal.
CEOs at my high school used to write themselves letters all the time. It was no big deal.
Nervous Northwest...I mean T-10, you should have gone to a better school.
-Not Nervous T-5 1L
Wow, FRAT STUD is everywhere? Of course, I can't vouch for the putative studs' authenticity -- after all, guys at my high school used to masquerade as FRAT STUD all the time. Actually, it was no big deal.
57,
It's Michigan.
-Not Nervous T-10 1L
The letter is poorly written as others have pointed out, but hooray for the candidate for saying something. I wish I had the guts to write letters to the firms where interviewers were rude or inappropriate.
GULC is #1 in SOURGRAPESLAW
60 = TTT and just wishes he could get an interview.
O may be wrong but there was a really tacky loudmouth of a clown named "Frederick Fern" who was with one of those crapass insurance defense mills about 10 years back. I'm think Wilson, Elser maybe? Same guy? he's like a bad stereotype of a Long Island loser.
wow - worst firm ever. what a gulc grad doing interviewing there?
I'm with 30. You guys take it too far. Look, we've all developed a ridiculous level of attention to detail. But students aren't there. And you know this when you find a sentence with one space after the period--yes, from applicants who hail from T10 schools. What a shock! Give it a rest. And know that the email/letter was sent by an emotional, offended student. What do you expect? Not everything is checked and triple-checked. Haven't you all seen briefs and papers submitted by brilliant legal thinkers that have a comma splice or omit a comma between independent clauses? I have.
There is no reason to demean students in interviews. And there is certainly no reason to make comments about a student's race. If the story is true, the conduct of the partners during the interview was and is highly offensive.
Why do I feel like many of the ATL readers don't come to the same conclusion?
Eh, I've worked with Rick a few times and he is your typical Jersey d'bag. Then again, so am I (minus the Jersey part) so we fit in pretty well.
Just goes to show all the interviewers out there that getting strings pulled sometimes means getting them pulled around your neck.
I suck balls.
-Nervous T10 1L
As a GULC 3L ... I am embarrassed. I mean, what the hell is a firm like Harris Beach doing at your school? I thought the placement office only allowed Top-20 firms interview here.
I'm with 30. You guys take it too far. Look, we've all developed a ridiculous level of attention to detail. But students aren't there. And you know this when you find a sentence with one space after the period--yes, from applicants who hail from T10 schools. What a shock! Give it a rest. And know that the email/letter was sent by an emotional, offended student. What do you expect? Not everything is checked and triple-checked. Haven't you all seen briefs and papers submitted by brilliant legal thinkers that have a comma splice or omit a comma between independent clauses? I have.
There is no reason to demean students in interviews. And there is certainly no reason to make comments about a student's race. If the story is true, the conduct of the partners during the interview was and is highly offensive.
Why do I feel like many of the ATL readers don't come to the same conclusion?
What the hell is Harris Beach? Isn't that a jewish retirement villa in So Fla?
I firmly believe we should out her so we here at GULC can publically humiliate her in front of McDonough.
all kidding aside, is GULC really that bad.
-new to dc
62, I am 60 and I actually I summered and worked as an associate at a V20 firm, thank you very much.
I had never even heard of this firm and from the website, it looks third-rate, at best.
I applaud this individual for not allowing such behavior to slide. As a 2L, I had an equally as offensive and rude screening interview with a woman at Squires Sanders in DC and I regret not saying anything about it. The racial comments alone are appauling and regardless of whether she is a qualified candidate, the partners should have enough manners and social graces to treat her with respect!
And also, can we PLEASE lay off the grammar patrol and the nasty, irrelevant back and forth? If ATL has gone down the tubes lately, its b/c most of the posters are a**holes who feel the need to project the partner hate they get at work onto others on this site. Being a BIGlaw associate sucks enough as it is, I don't need to deal with more jerk-offs on a site I turn to for some comic relief and solice during the day.
It's not ok to use a race indicator as a noun. Does no one else hear how offensive it is to talk about "the blacks"? Use it as an adjective. Black people. White people. Not "the blacks" or "the whites".
Nervous T10 1L, you got a bad rap in the beginning but you are actually entertaining/hilarious after all. For 1L summer job...replace Elie?
Nervous T10 1L, you got a bad rap in the beginning but you are actually entertaining/hilarious after all. For 1L summer job...replace Elie?
Nervous T10 1L, you got a bad rap in the beginning but you are actually entertaining/hilarious after all. For 1L summer job...replace Elie?
74: What's "solice"?
@74 What's "appauling"?
- Not 79
74:
Your spelling is "appauling"
This chick's writing is pretty bad, as has been noted on this board.
And "disinterested" does not mean "uninterested."
I'd love to hear the other side of this story.
This guy defends drug companies that cause birth defects. What do you expect?
"unprofessional behavior I received"? You don't "receive" behavior. You can witness behavior, or receive treatment.
She should sue these cunts.
26, I go for interviews, not on them.
I didn't realize this was a blog for and about copyeditors.
You guys are losers. This woman faced clear discrimination, and all you can do is criticize her grammar? How TTT.
At least we know both the interviewee and Harris Beach like to end sentences with prepositions.
88 - Yeah, discrimination against stupid people who suck at interviews. Also, how TTT are you for thinking there was "clear" discrimination based on her word alone?
The grammar of her first sentence is horrible. Fail.
When idiots meet idiots. Who the hell cares.
The grammar of the rest of the piece is horrible. Major Fail.
HOWEVER
You can treat people cordially and politely at all times. It is not difficult. It is clear that is what should have happened. Additionally, it MUCH SAFER to BS politely for 15 min. w/ an inadequate interview than to be rude and/or bring up race/gender. But then again what can you expect from a firm named after a crappy Florida town.
87: You obviously aren't a lawyer. Most lawyers are just glorified "copy editors." Especially corporate associates, who spend most of their long hours plugging in boilerplate and triple-checking for typos at $350/hour.
22 - Don't worry, I've been forced to interview a number of unqualified whites, too. "Stupid" isn't limited by race or gender.
86, exactly.
How did this get disclosed to ATL? If someone at the firm leaked it, they should be in big trouble. If the applicant submitted it to ATL, then either her name should be published as well, or all names should have been redacted.
(As for the letter, it's not nitpicking to say that the first sentence is terrible. I had to re-read the post to try to figure out why the head of diversity was writing the "memo," in the first person.)
89 - Its perfectly acceptable to end a sentence with a preposition, and even preferable in some cases. Read Strunk & White.
I had an OCI interview with a mid-size New Jersey firm (and I will say at the outset, thank god I got offers from v100 New York firms). Anyway, the interviewer, recognizing that I am Jewish, asked, "How would you feel about drumming up business in temple? Those people only want lawyers from their community."
Unbelievable.
Guys in my high school used to have bad experiences with Harris Beach attorneys all the time. It was no big deal.
Fred Fern is a bad ass. Perhaps the rest of you didn't notice that he's been in Who's Who in American Lawyers for over 20 years. What a jerk-off, who the fook responds to that rag?
a similar experience happened to me at WILDMANN & HARROLD.
how does this affect associates there?
To paraphrase many people, ending sentences with prepositions is something up with which we should not put.
Good for this woman for standing up for herself. Yes, the first line is confusing but all of us figured out what she was saying. Best of luck to this student.
I do not care what Strunk and White says about ending sentences with prepositions -- I cringe every time I read a sentence ending with a preposition.
66, you get points for admitting you're a dbag, but i think you meant to say "interviewees."
w/r/t the merits of the GULC student's case, i'd say she should report the firm to GULC before she reports it to ATL. and if she does report it to ATL, be ready to have your grammar checked. and triple checked.
105 - You cringe because you're too stupid to know better.
105 - you are a useless cockneck
I really question the wisdom of this girl if she was, in fact, the one who forwarded the e-mail to ATL.
During the interview process with a V5 firm - callback dinner/callback interview - several associates made racist jokes and comments. When I did not receive an offer, my first instinct was to post about the entire experience here, leaving out individuals' names, but mentioning the firm and the office. Upon reflection, I realized two things. First, the attitudes of the associates had nothing to do with my getting dinged (I am white, after all). Second, the legal community is, in the end, fairly small. Were I to have complained, it would have been fairly obvious that I was the one going around the internet whining. Ultimately, I envisioned too many scenarios in which lawyers from this particular firm would let it be known that I run to the internet every time something doesn't go my way. That reputation did not seem like one that would advance my career prospects.
109: Inquiring minds must know, you tease!
yall are a bunch of douche bags
This girl rocks. I had an unprofessional interview with some third rate Los Angeles firm, and I sent them a letter at the end of it also - all I said was that after the interview, I had decided not to accept a summer position at their firm. Rejected them first - lots of fun.
leave curry alone. my guys in the mail room tell me she arguably gives the best head in the office.
-CEO of Cocksmoking at Harris Beach
Who wrote that letter, Sara Palin? Oh wait, she did? Way to go Sarah!
I didn't have anything appalling happen during OCI, but I was surprised by the schlubs some firms sent out. Please, have some pride.
Sounds like a disgruntled, affirmative action-advantaged, black female (you all know what I'm talking about). I don't believe one word she wrote (to extent I could decipher any words).
Sounds like a disgruntled, affirmative action-advantaged, black female (you all know what I'm talking about). I don't believe one word she wrote (to the extent I could decipher any words).
WTF is wrong with most of you!!! Yes, this candidate is a poor writer, but then she just shouldn't get an offer. Nobodoy deserves this kind of treatment in an interview, even if she is an "affirmative action-advantaged, black female" (as 117 so sensitively put it) or because her "'mom or somebody' had 'called in a favor'" (as Mr. D-Bag Fern reportedly said). Unless this story is a complete fabrication (and if it is, Harris Beach is sure to defend themselves), those of you who are blaming her for this and picking apart her e-mail should be ashamed of yourselves. I know I'm ashamed of you.
What the candidate forgot to write is that because of Fred's (or Rick as he likes to be called) lisp and speech impediment, he probably spit all over her as he was insluting her.
the nitpicking of the grammer in the letter is amusing only because most law students/young lawyers seem to understand basic grammer, but can't actually write. While this letter has some grammatical flaws, it has passion, tells a good story, and has logical organization. One out of 25 law students from top schools can accomplish that, in my experience
I feel it is my duty to stick up for Harris, even if this link has been dead for ages:
I interviewed this fall with Harris Beach and had a wonderful experience. In fact, of the many interviews I took both in NY and in DC, it was by far the warmest and most genuine experience I had - so much so that I accepted an offer there over larger, higher paying DC firms.
I hate to impugne the truthfulness of another without knowing them, however as a Rochester native who knows an awful lot about Harris Beach (HQ'd in Roc) and an awful lot of attorneys who work there - this does not sound like them. So, as 118 suggested, perhaps this a fabrication, or at minimum, an exaggeration.
I feel it is my duty to stick up for Harris, even if this link has been dead for ages:
I interviewed this fall with Harris Beach and had a wonderful experience. In fact, of the many interviews I took both in NY and in DC, it was by far the warmest and most genuine experience I had - so much so that I accepted an offer there over larger, higher paying DC firms.
I hate to impugne the truthfulness of another without knowing them, however as a Rochester native who knows an awful lot about Harris Beach (HQ'd in Roc) and an awful lot of attorneys who work there - this does not sound like them. So, as 118 suggested, perhaps this a fabrication, or at minimum, an exaggeration.