"At the time SDFD policy was to make participation in the parade mandatory under anti-discrimination laws. "

What laws would that be? What does firefighting (regardless of sexual orientation) have to do with gay pride?

Were they actually participating in the parade or were they serving a government function in insuring the public's safety?

"It seems like the same standard should apply to a sexual harassment charge in both cases, if at all."

???

Look, I know you don't practice law, but cripes- somebody should get you Westlaw so that you can at least pretend to know what is going on.

Isn't there a different blog you can grind your pink-triangle-shaped axe at? We come here fore legal gossip.

"He said the parade is a city-sanctioned event, just like celebrations of the Fourth of July and Martin Luther King Jr. Day."

Yeah, a big quasi-orgy of gay men coming on to the firefighters is just like the Fourth of July and MLK Jr. parades.

I wouldn't think that voluntary participation would be any worse than voluntary participation of city firefighters at a Christmas parade, but being forced as part of your job to go to an event where you're the highlight of the day's meat market seems to go overboard.

"Aguirre told jurors that the men were assigned to the parade after another crew backed out due to a death in one member's family"

Fear the queer mafia?

Just to keep things in perspective:

Today is the 10th anniversary of the beating and death of gay college student Matthew Shepard.

So, who is supposed to fear whom again?

"But let's flip the gender and orientation for a second. Would it be sexual harassment for a group of guys to shout "you're making me hot" at women marching in a parade? It seems like the same standard should apply to a sexual harassment charge in both cases, if at all. "

Sure, and if the city were liable for catcalls from citizens, that might be relevant.

The issue in the case is whether "assigning" firefighters to march in a gay pride parade is actionable; the catcalls were only relevant to the "damages" "suffered" by the poor, unfortunate, sensitive firefighters who were thrust into that situation.

So, uh . . . flipping the gender and orientation actually changes nothing at all, from a legal standpoint.

(or, in short: FAIL)

http://www.businesssheet.com/2008/10/after-an-exhausting-bailout-aig-execs-needed-a-break-

2 here, I'm still confused after reading the story.

Were they really marching (read: part of the parade)? If that's the case, which I'm not sure is, would they force Jewish firefighters to march in a Christmas parade that was cit-sanctioned?

8: Third parties to the employment relationship can create employer liability under Title VII.

The "nuns" are, of course, the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisters_of_Perpetual_Indulgence

holla!

They were not providing a security function they were marching. The city forced them to partake in a homosexualty celebration presumably against their will.

I'm not sure if its actionable, but i know allot of firefighters that would be royally pissed off (and a silent minority secretly delighted.)

But no matter which firefighters were pleased or displeased by the c*ckf*est, is it ever right to force someone to march in a parade other than one of national pride as civil servants.

HELL'S KITCHEN REPRESENT REPRESENT!

Gay = TTT

If 13 is correct, is there a public/private sector division? That is, could the law firm where I work force me to participate in a gay pride parade that was firm-sponsored.? Could it force me to participate in any type of parade?

Hadn't the firefighters seen "I now pronounce you Chuck & Larry"?

I would gladly march in a gay pride parade if a law firm would hook me up with a high paying sa. Will they?

Nervous T-10 1L

Funny 17- http://justmarvy.blogspot.com/2008/10/in-defense-of-marriage_06.html

"Radical homosexual men?" Obviously these firefighters have never been to Chelsea (or even Hell's Kitchen).

Or AboveTheLaw's offices?

Homosexuals should do their dirty business only in private. Preferably also in pairs, female, and in my bedroom.

We're here !

We're Elie's chins !

Get used to us !

Elie is so fabulous! The rest of you need to get over strong gay black men or strong gay straight men who accept the gay lifestyle or whatever. Elie "Mister E" Mystal is so hot - u go gurl! Honey, don't let dem haturz git u down!

Yee Haw!

"But let's flip the gender and orientation for a second. Would it be sexual harassment for a group of guys to shout "you're making me hot" at women marching in a parade? It seems like the same standard should apply to a sexual harassment charge in both cases, if at all."

If you want to analyze an event in the news, try relying on an account from something more closely resembling a real newspaper:

http://www.latimes.com/business/careers/work/la-me-harass15-2008sep15,0,576141.story

Or failing that, the Onion usually gets these things about right:
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28491

Thank you 22...for the laugh.

Is a Uighur a small black man ?

If we are going to reference "I now pronounce you Chuck & Larry," I feel obligated to mention Jessica Biel, or more specifically, her INSANE body.

Perhaps there is a better and more accurate adjective than insane?

Pleasant thoughts.

It would be sexual harassment for the city to force a bunch of women to march in a parade where men taunted them like that, yes.

Same situation here. People forced to march in a parade they don't feel comfortable at, where they are sexually taunted. Slam dunk except for our bizarre double-standard in harassment cases.

For crying out loud Elie, there's a debate going on, perhaps you'd like to blog something timely. Just because you're out of biglaw doesn't mean you get to stop working at five f'in fifteen.

Trade Elie to Heller's Seattle office, bring back Lat!

OMG STOP THE GAYS!! First it was Will & Grace, then we had to deal with Lance Bass coming out, and then Doogie? This is TOO much, next y'all will tell me Scalia is going to come out of the closet! Sheeet, MCCAIN/PALIN '08 to secure our american (READ: pea-brained, homophobic, pro-rich/oil companies/drilling aficionados, not to mention Palin-drunk rednecks from NYC to Alaska) values!! Woo-hoo!

7, how is that relevant? So forever more, gays are immune from legal liability because of the killing of Matthew Shepard?

32, EXACTLY. Gays will forever be immune from ANY legal liability all across the spectrum because of Shephard AND Sen. Larry Craig, Sen. Mark Foley and lest we forget the ALMIGHTY Rev. Ted Haggard. You betcha!!!

32, EXACTLY. Gays will forever be immune from ANY legal liability all across the spectrum because of Shephard AND Sen. Larry Craig, Sen. Mark Foley and lest we forget the ALMIGHTY Rev. Ted Haggard. You betcha!!! The GOP <3s the gays!

I believe 7 is pointing out that we might want to keep some perspective here, even if we think that the firefighters have a claim. Has nothing to do with "the gays'" liability (though this is a suit against the city) and everything to do with the fact that the vast majority of gay/straight harassment is straight dudes harassing gay boys and men.

I'd also like to point out that these are the same dudes who run into burning buildings for a living, so I find it laughable that they felt uncomfortable because of a bunch of gay dudes dressed as nuns, but I suppose that's besides the point.

35, you find it laughable because you equate being morally uncomfortable with being physical uncomfortable. In the case of firefighters, they endure such physical discomfort and danger in order to save lives. And they are forced to endure moral discomfort because San Diego, like so many of our cities, has bowed down to pressure from homosexuals.

36, perhaps emotionally uncomfortable is a more apt term than morally uncomfortable, to the extent you are implying that moral opposition to homosexuality should excuse you from marching (particularly if the city had express anti-discrimination laws) - this would not be different from opposition to marching in an MLK parade.
However, I do agree that being made to feel emotionally uncomfortable, even if not feeling physically threatened, could be a problem.

Sounds like forced speech to me, to be obliged to march in parade that promotes somthing you do not believe in or are opposed to. The employer, especialy a state employer, needsto leave room for individuals' (subjective) religious beliefs against homosexuality. The point of a parade is what? Showing pride and unity about a particular theme or cause, right? Speech.

I was a band geek in high school ("it was no big deal") and marched a lot of parades. There are always stupid drunks in the crowd yelling obnoxious things. I do not recal being hit on while I was in my uniform... However, without a doubt that each parade's theme constitutes SYMBOLIC SPEECH, not to mention ASSOCIATION by everyone marching in it. Freedom of speech should apply to those who voluntarily participate, whether marching or watching.

Can anyone provide insight why the firefighters did not sue the city because they were forced into promoting speech?

Watch OUT!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1070290/Former-Mr-Gay-UK-slit-boyfriends-throat-marinated-diced-flesh-fresh-herbs.html

"radical homosexual men" as in "the square root of homosexual men"?

If, as part of his/her job, the employer requires an employee to be in a situation where the employer knows that the employee will be subject to sexual harassment by a third party, there could be liability. That would be why the City lost on summary judgment.

I cannot understand how a state could constitutionally force a person to march in a parade of any kind. I don't think employment changes that. I can see forcing police to guard a parade, forcing sanitation to clean up after it, but forcing state employees to be in a parade? If the KKK came to town and asked to parade, would they force city employees to march in that? Indefensible.

I cannot understand how a state could constitutionally force a person to march in a parade of any kind. I don't think employment changes that. I can see forcing police to guard a parade, forcing sanitation to clean up after it, but forcing state employees to be in a parade? If the KKK came to town and asked to parade, would they force city employees to march in that? Indefensible.

Some points:

1. Elie's factual explication is severely lacking. It's not clear if the firefighters were on site for security purposes or forced to march in the parade as participants.

2. Hurley v. Irish American GLB Group of Boston, 515 U.S. 557 (1995), dealing with symbolic speech in the context of parades, is on point for the forced speech issue as well as parades as public speech and the historical silencing of homosexuals.

3. 36 sounds as misguided and foolish as the dissent in Romer v. Evans and Scalia's dissent in Lawrence v. Texas re states' "signing on to the so-called homosexual agenda." The San Diego area--the UCSD campus, the enclave where the San Diego Pride took place--happens to be gay friendly these days and is commendable for such, but this precarious position (see, e.g. the proposed referendum on gay marriage) hardly because the gay minority community exerts such political pressure as to blackmail the government or municipality.

41: You mean like waiting tables, being an administrative assistant, or just walking down the damn street is for women?

I don't know the status of the law on this point, but, the firefighters were marching in the parade as representatives of the city government, not as individuals representing their personal beliefs. So, if they were participating in making a statement, through symbolic speech, they were making that statement on behalf of the local government, not as individuals.
I wonder what would have happened if I were a cuacasian firefighter and I refused to march in the MLK parade b/c of my racial bias that I honestly believe to be based on my religious convictions (remember, some opposition to racial equality was religiously based). Could the city force me to march to demonstrate that the CITY was supporting anti-discrimination laws? If so, how is that any different from the city forcing me to march in the pride parade? They both relate to anti-discrimination LAWS, not personal values.

So, I didn't read the comments beyond number 1 (he was first) but shouldn't one of the criteria a story must meet in order to make the cut here is to actually be about lawyers, a law firm or life in a law office? I mean, I like a big radical gay guy in a nun's habit as much as the next guy, but please. Have a standard or two.

"I wonder what would have happened if I were a cuacasian firefighter and I refused to march in the MLK parade "

Why relevance is a caucasion firefighter marching in an MLK parade?

I haven't been to an MLK parade, but I've been to the Puerto Rico parade in NYC, and I didn't see a lot of white firefighters.

I Now Pronounce You Chuck and Larry -- now that was pretty funny.