First!

first??

fourth

fourth

first
to say we're all screwed

edamame!

5 pwed
- 4

Shit! The job market for lawyers is bad right now???? Oh no.

Even the best law firms are cutting down on their hires at this point. A partner at my firm, an elite white-shoe firm, privately expressed some concern that a prolonged recession could result in less associate attrition due to reduced opportunities at i-banks and other firms. Recent hiring targets were based on a high attrition rate for the first three years. Now it looks like those associates might be around a little longer. Because of that, the firm has made a moderate reduction in hiring in order to protect the pyramid scheme of the modern law firm.

When corporations want to reduce costs, the first they they do is cut the $400/hour outside attorneys whose partners are making 30% profits, not the $80/hour in-house counsel.
How does it feel to be in the out-house?

-In House Counsel

For a solo practitioner or a partner at a smaller firm, now is a great time to get some extra help for the summer. Lots of quality students feeling desperate.

a really useful post would be advice for (new) lawyers about how to weather this slowdown in work. i don't know any first-years who have work to do. what are we supposed to do all day long? everyone says not to worry about it but we have to bill some hours, right?

anyone?

How do they get $73,000 as the average debt coming out of law school?

#13 the answer is simple. be a litigator.. i haven't had both days off in a weekend since the first week i started.

-- 1st year V15 litigator

Guys at my high school used to take minimum wage jobs all the time. It was no big deal.

see, and you guys said i shouldn't be worried.

*emails all the hiring committees of the v50 asking for an 'informational interview'*

-nervous T-10 1L

16 - True, but guys in your high school were in high school.

In House Counsel,

Bitter much? People are losing their jobs, funny funny, ha ha.

No one wants you here. No one likes you. Leave.

11: if you're going to troll, at least manage to play your character. If corporations wanted to cut costs, V100 lawfirms would all have been dumped for the majority of their load a long time ago. There are smaller firms who can do the same work for a fraction of the price.

This is the worst post I have ever read.
The entire thrust of the post is founded on the idea that students should "work hard, keep your head down, and try to ride it out," despite the economic downturn and the rumors that are consequently being spread. But, another portion of the article focuses on providing the readers with more of the rumors that we are supposed to ignore. This inconsistency is ridiculous. If the idea is for us to ignore the rumors, then don't post the article! If the idea is to provide credence to the rumors, then don't pretend that the rumors should be ignored!

17 - I go to a law school at the boTTTom end of the top-100 and got a good summer position after 2L and a job. So if you really go to a T-10 school, shut the hell up and just study more, you should be fine.

15, litigation sucks. but don't worry, i fear i will be doing doc review all fall.

13

This is the worst post I have ever read.
The entire thrust of the post is founded on the idea that students should "work hard, keep your head down, and try to ride it out," despite the economic downturn and the rumors that are consequently being spread. But, another portion of the article focuses on providing the readers with more of the rumors that we are supposed to ignore. This inconsistency is ridiculous. If the idea is for us to ignore the rumors, then don't post the article! If the idea is to provide credence to the rumors, then don't pretend that the rumors should be ignored!

I knew I should have taken that manufacturing job in Ohio or that i-bank position. I mean, it's not like the economy as a whole has slowed.

Great title, Elie.

what is going to happen is associate salary differentiation among the amlaw 100, and certainly 200. translation: not everyone (certainly not 100 firms) can keep up with S&C/STB raises. Some firm out there will drop, and then the floodgates will open. Its either that or close up shop. everyone has accepted the cravath (hire the best lawyers pay them the best provide them the best training etc.) without realizing that not everyone gets cravath's work. If firms don't drop, the next raise in 3 years or whatever will not be matched by more than 50-75 firms.

11,

Feels pretty nice actually. You know: $200k, awesome benefits, smart colleagues and sophisticated clients. As much as you are hoping for capitalism to melt down, it is not going to happen, comrade.

By the way, there is nothing wrong with your job. No need to be so damn bitter.

14: There are lots of people with ways to reduce their debt. State schools, people who worked and saved money before law school, people with working spouses, people with Jewish parents, etc.

Skadden DC - Don't even think it!

I am wondering if this has impacted the hiring of Harvard 2Ls. Many schools have early OCI, and students have already secured summer positions, but I am aware that Harvard has a later OCI than most schools. Have some firms recently decided to hire fewer summers and have therefore already met their needs? Have most firms already accounted for this and so it doesn't really matter? A response from an actual Harvard 2L or someone who knows would be appreciated.

31: ATL mentioned last week how harvard was particualrly hard-hit.

Iceland is in even worse shape. They have to put themselves for sale on E-Bay.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/reutersEdge/idUKLNE49906S20081010

27: you are so right

Because I have a rocket docket in my pocket, I, sir, will never be unemployed.

Balls Deep

How will this impact the market for Subway sandwich artists?

-Nervous Creighton 3L

Is it true that all GULC 6Ls are being let go over the next 3-4 months?

36 - start drawing yourself a grinder.

Will the economic downturn result in there being fewer PEANUTS and CHEESE available in law firm break rooms? Discuss.

Also, I echo # 7. Let’s gets some EDAMAME up in here with those PEANUTS and CHEESE!

Putting aside your trolling racism (29), I don't really believe that there are many students have saved enough to make a real dent in their debt burden. Most are coming right from college. Of the few with careers, how many have $70,000 saved up ready to go to law school expenses? Not nearly enough to cut the true law school debt ($150K+) in half.
Private schools tend to report that same kind of average, between 70K and 80K.
So where does it come from? Are there that many students who are fully paid by their parents?
If so, the average shouldn't include them.

31:http://abovethelaw.com/2008/10/fall_recruiting_follow-up_part.php

I agree with 14: Where does that average debt figure come from? My law school tuition was $37K per year two years ago. That's $111K for tuition alone, assuming zero borrowing for books or cost of living. Are there an abundance of cheap law schools out there (a.k.a. public schools).

MysTTTal

I agree with 14: Where does that average debt figure come from? My law school tuition was $37K per year two years ago. That's $111K for tuition alone, assuming zero borrowing for books or cost of living. Are there an abundance of cheap law schools out there (a.k.a. public schools).

I guess its not a good time to be a GULC6L or Skadden DC associate.

Sigh............

40: A lot of students come right from college, but I wouldn't say most. Isn't the average 1L age around 28? I'm in a midsized NY firm and only 20% of our first years went straight from college to law school.

A couple of the others had saved a ton of money ($50k+) before law school.

-29

I wish I had me some Jewish parents.

Manny Mensch

40 - i had a scholarship in UG and in LS, and i have $60k in debt.

So your post on Dechert may have been wrong?????

Does this mean my V5 firm going to no-offer me this summer?

- nervous T10 2L.

Wisconsin in-state $15K/year--plus living costs...I got out with $85K in debt and lived way too well. Should have gotten out with $65K, so it can be done.

HELLO MY INTERNET FRIENDS HOW ARE YOU TODAY?

29 -

I have Jewish parents who contributed nothing to my education. However, I at all times acted as a proper Jew and will have under average debt at graduation from my T14. Please specify non-immigrant Jewish parents in the future.

Thank you.

It is, of course, possible to graduate from law school with little to no debt. It is nearly impossible to graduate from law school with little to no debt without help from family or a large amount of money saved from previous employment (in which case why the hell are you going to law school - being a lawyer isn't fun and, with a few exceptions, the only reason to become one is the $$$). The vast majority will graduate from law school owing at least 100k.

29 - you are an a**!

GULCers need not apply.

who cares about debt? once everyone starts defaulting, the gov't will bail us out anyway to save the banks. i'm racking up as much debt as possible - it's free money!

29 is a douche.

I just love the quote from the career services assistant dean:

“One of the biggest challenges for career services professionals is dealing with the rumor mill among law students . . .”

No, kind sir, your biggest challenge is to help me find a 2L summer associate position in a tanking economy. Earn your paycheck in the good years and in the bad. Once you’ve found decent employment for students at your school, the rumor mill will take care of itself.

52 is clearly an LLM. Can I get a what-what?

Maybe a lot of students at regional schools have spouses that work so they don't borrow living expenses or live at home?

now that serious discussion is over, and 29 has thrown himself into the fray, can we discuss how to end (largely passive aggressive) anti-semitism on law school campuses?

Gentlemen in my preparatory academy used to avoid the accumulation of a large principle balance of educational debt all the time by requesting draws on their trust funds with surprising frequency. It was not uncommon.

57

The more salient questions are:

When will universities stop opening new law schools?

When will existing law schools cut back on the number of people admitted?

When will the ABA do something to address the fact that the the job market is being flooded with an overabundance of law students every year, and that a good percentage of them will have no viable employment opportunities in the legal job market?

now that serious discussion is over, and 29 has thrown himself into the fray, can we discuss how to end (largely passive aggressive) anti-semitism on law school campuses?

57 and 64 - you misapprehend the point of our government which is to bail out the big guys while the little guys are forced to declare bankruptcy. Hint - you're little guys.

29 - you are an a**!

29 = Triggy Trig Trig Palin

At my T6, there seem to be two types of students: those whose parents are paying for their entire law school price tab, and those taking out loans for the entire amount. I imagine the average debt of the latter is around 140k+.

"I don't really believe that there are many students have saved enough to make a real dent in their debt burden. Most are coming right from college. Of the few with careers, how many have $70,000 saved up ready to go to law school expenses?"

True, but you have to take into account the students who had their way paid by their parents/trusts; they reduce the average debt load of the class as a whole.

73K is peanuts... I went to a private school and came out with about $160K which included tuition, living expenses, bar loan, credit cards, etc. That being said I did travel a bunch and went out to bars 4-5 days a week in law school. Regardless, I think $73K is nothing especially if the bulk of those loans are federal loans which can be consolidated at a lower interest rate. Been out for 4 years now and about half the loans are paid... not touching the federal loans beyond the minimum which were consolicated at a fixed 2% back in the day and have since been reduced for on time payments etc. Point being that overall everyone has loans and they keep you living like a student for many years out. People with no law school loans are pretty damn lucky.

How to end anti-semitism? I think some German guy tried that about half a century ago, and it almost worked. Point: as long as there as Jews (or anyone else slightly different who manages to better themselves) there will always be someone else who hates them.

what-what

GULC 2L Trig Palin has no job? JoePa's UPEnn squad having a great year while the law students on campus can't find jobs? Skadden DC to $0? What is the world coming to?

69: Does Trig Palin like peanuts and cheese?

74 - much appreciated,

60

After all of the comments this weekend about Dechert - shouldn't Elie have something posted by now? It is after noon.

Skadden DC is slammed with work. Lock-Step bonuses "the same or better than last year" are coming! (that is a direct quote from my practice leader). Suck it!

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

Further to 14 and 42, another misleading point is to exclude ungrad loans. Unless I somehow missed the amnesty, my ungrad debt didn't magically disappear upon graduation from law school.

Litigation in chicago is slammed.....im a first year, definitely going to crush the 2000 hours. crush dogs.

73K isn't suprising for average. Even with a lot of TTT's charging T14 prices there are plenty of schools on down the list that can't charge that much. The state school I applied to as a back up (thank god I didn't go) was only like 8K a year for in-state and they offered me a full ride. I could have been out of law school with basically no debt.

Re: anti-Semitism:
"[Jesse] Jackson believes that, although "Zionists who have controlled American policy for decades" remain strong, they'll lose a great deal of their clout when Barack Obama enters the White House.

"We helped him start his career," says Jackson. "And then we were always there to help him move ahead. He is the continuation of our struggle for justice not only for the black people but also for all those who have been wronged." "

http://www.nypost.com/seven/10142008/postopinion/opedcolumnists/the_o_jesse_knows_133450.htm?page=0

Yes We Can

72, what is this living high on debt, particularly credit cards?

I know some people will try to arbitrage their student loans, but living like you are making six figures when it's all borrowed money at interest should, I would hope, be obviously stupid.

Agree with 27. The top firms that have top premium work (DPW, Cleary, Paul Weiss, Skadden, etc.) will pay lockstep (and eventually raise starting salaries), keep hiring lots of associates (although this year and next they may lessen hiring a bit because no one is leaving), and remain busy. But, for the rest of the Amlaw 200, firms will either have to stay with the current payscale, move to a merit based system, or a tiered system where it relies much more on staff or contract associates and law clerks/paralegals and only pays the "partnership-track" associates well. Economic reality may hit at last. It was ridiculous for firms billing junior associates out at $250-300 to pay the same salaries as associates at the top firms billing them out at $400+. Not all clients write blank checks.

scholarship at T-10>>>debt at HYS
no law school debt and a T-14 degree. Obviously the best choice.

I paid off my SL debt by not buying food...don't you idiots know there is delicious cheese and peanuts in the conference room.

Is no one listening? I said CHEESE and PEANUTS for FREE!!

I knew before I even read 29 that he must have made an anti-semitic comment to have generated so much sudden outrage about "racism" on this site. What a joke . . .

MysTTTal

88= DOUCHENOZZLE

I just had a callback with pepper Hamilton. Word on this board is they are rescinding offers as to not oversubscribe. Why are they still giving callbacks if that is the case?

65, the real question is when will college grads who can't get jobs stop applying to TTT law schools, spending tens of thousands and wasting 3 years, and then whine that they can't get a job?

Why in the world would you take out 70k or more to attend a TTT where half the class (the bottom) graduates with 30-40k jobs (if they even get one that's legal)?

I think our generation needs a reality check.

Don't believe the negative hype about Skadden DC. They will be fine? Why isn't anyone else hearing positive things about that office?

31 & 32: HLS 2Ls are doing well, but not so well we're taking anything for granted, which I suspect recent classes may have been able to do. Most folks were offered four or five callbacks (more in Boston and Chicago; DC and SF were the toughest), which is plenty to find a job but not so many that you can be snobby or picky.

Grades seem to matter more this year than in the past -- it turns out we weren't just being paranoid when we suspected that people were drawing lines between HLS students based solely on the difference between B+s and Bs, a distinction the new grading system will, of course, eliminate.

People with good grades, law review, etc are doing as well as any other year.

94- Are you suggesting that someone who earns a B+ at HLS has not, in fact, done better than someone who earns a B?

95 -- Not sure. Common perception -- perpetuated both by students and professors -- is that precise grades don't necessarily capture meaningful differences between students. So while there's a defensible difference between A work and B work, maybe there's not between B+ and B, at least not that can be identified by the average professor's cursory skimming of an exam. Then again, maybe we're just copping out to make students feel better about themselves.

Obviously the professors, as demonstrated by their vote to change the system, don't want to take on the responsibility of the fine distinctions method of grading. Who are we students, after all, to make professors work harder?

anybody know when new NALP data will come out?

96 to Obama's Economic Advisor.

96, 95 here.

I agree that (at least in the current regime), small individual grade differences do have an arbitrary component. If that's so, I wonder whether the problem isn't the system itself but rather the fact that faculty members cannot or will not put in the time necessary to assign meaningful grades.

If I've accurately captured the problem, changing the grading system seems like an evasive solution.

83: criticizing zionism doesn't make you an anti-semite. this country would be better off if we didn't let israel dictate our mid-east foreign policy.

100- get real

So 100, Jesse Jackson is actually a big fan of Jews and he simply wants a more diversified U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East?

And that he calls Jews "Hymies" and New York City "Hymietown" merely out of affection and endearment?

The ABA is telling law students to have a backup plan now! Nice!! http://endofesq.com/?p=371

100: Given the extent to which (rightly or wrongly) large segments of the Jewish community have questioned Obama's support for Israel, who else but an anti-semite would be impolitic enough to support Obama through the lens of anti-Zionism?

Seriously? Is Elie really going to pretend he didn't have his ass handed to him by the commentators in the Dechert thread? Is he going to ignore the Dechert situation and have Kash write all the posts from now on?

Hmm, a career counselor at my school sent out a mass email the other day, saying that recent graduates seeking a job will spend an average of 2-3 extra months searching for a job in this economy.

Can someone post something substantive about these Skadden DC rumors? Elie? Care to confirm or deny?

I noticed Howrey was mentioned in the article, but no one has said anything about them in the comments. Any thoughts on Howrey?

I graduated in 2007 and I'm still unemployed...but at least I'm not in debt.

But none of you question where the tuition is going, Do the math, add up the students and the tuition, the law schools are raking in money on your backs. The entire system needs to be changed.

Students loans are like mortgage brokers, they offer cheap money and so inflate tuition.

Step number one is eliminating all student loans, this would bring tuition under control through the law of supply and demand.

With tuition rates so high, and law school grades apparantly irrelevant, it makes sense to return to the clerk system. The top firms just accept people right from college based on college gpa and lsat scores and then the firms educate them for three years, and have them do document review in their spare time for peanut wages. It would be cheaper for the firms and cheaper for the students.

Everyone's so focused on the short term firings, what about the long term issue that firms are going to realize, especially now with this economy, that they can get the same work done for the same quality, for a lot less, by hiring less "partnership-track," i.e., high-paid associates and more law clerks, paralegals, staff attorneys, contract attorneys, contract associates, or "non-partnership track" associates? It's already been happening in some biglaw firms feeling the salary crunch, and with the economy the way it is, other firms will pick up on the idea, which will lead to less high-paid associate jobs total....

Saying, "There are no jobs ANYWHERE," translates to, "There are no jobs anywhere else," and is a statement provided by UA OCS/OCI to deflect blame for the lack of decent work prospects for UA law grads. At UA, this statement is used independently from the economic downturn and availability of jobs. Enjoy college football season, UA! You might not be able to afford tix in the future without your student discount...