Damnit, so close to first.

third???

Atlanta rumors:
1. hunton
2. smith gambrell
3. A+B

Yet another craptastic TTT firm that will get slaughtered in recruiting once the economy picks up...

Sonnenschein's cutting more, too.

5 = delusional law student.

The economy is going to stay shitty longer than you can stay picky.

7 = disgruntled Katten associate.

Slaughtered in recruiting? Just add an extra $5k to the offer and greedy 3L's will forget all about any layoffs.

Cut from Katten Chicago this morning. Confirmed.

sorry 10. keep your head up.

This won't hurt them in recruiting, not in this economy. Law students will be desperate for jobs as will laterals. Katten still pays market and people just need a job that pays so they'll take it. I would...

"Perhaps the Clifford Chance layoffs were just the beginning."

But for the TPW, CWT, Heller, Greenberg, CC's last years lay-offs and all the other lay-offs that already happened in this economic cycle, the above would be an accurate statement.

Katten is not the only firm cutting attorneys in Chicago.

First to say I'm super happy I don't work in the "Wachovia practice group"

10: how many were cut?

Thanks 11

10,

Apres tu, le deluge?

10 - sorry to hear it. Katten kind of screwed themselves by being such a corporate-relying firm. There are still jobs out there.

10 - I'm very sorry to hear that you were let go. What group are in you, if you don't mind my asking? Are you getting severance?

14, I suspect the same is true of Moore & VanAllen and Charlotte. Presumably, some of the A&B cuts will be (are) in Charlotte (though I understand their IP practice group-- about half of the Charlotte office-- is doing well). I suspect there will be some other firms doing the same. I'd include both national firms (CWT, Sonnenschein) and regional/local firms (Parker Poe is the one that jumps out here) in this assessment.

10: best of luck to you. from what groups were the cuts?

21, I would not necessarily expect that result from the other local/regional firms (Parker Poe or otherwise) who are much more diversified.

Confirmed. I work in the Enron M&A practice group.

Yet another reason to join a halfway decent firm from the start.

-GULC 2L

Any word on staff cuts at Katten? I'm suddenly very very scared.

Agreed, 19. Katten is exposed here because of its client base. The real question is: Is this a dissolution situation in the making? They probably are among the most vulnerable of the Chicago firms, excepting perhaps Sonnenschein.

Nationwide fat guy watch: Is Mystal cutting fat?

...nah, he's just gobble gobble gobbling up some TTTurkey.

Confirmed. I work in the Enron M&A practice group.

Can someone look into stealth layoff at Allen & Overy. I heard they are giving people overly bad performance reviews and telling them they'll be fired in a few months if they don't improve.

Allen & Overy is an awful place to work in -- at least in London.

Allen & Overy is an awful place to work in -- at least in London.

23, 21 here.

MVA is far more exposed to BoA than they are to Wachovia (BoA accounts for ~20% of their business; Wachovia accounts for ~5%). If the layoffs at MVA are in fact related to Wachovia, that doesn't bode well for others in Charlotte-- "diversified" or not.

Of course, MVA does a lot of M&A work (they like to boast that they make more deals than just about anyone in the country), so it may be the economy in general that's hurting them more than Wachovia specifically.

make fun of Mystal all you want, but leave the good name of turkey out of this dammit.

The A&O suspicions are likely true. A&O is looking for a merger partner, and probably ditching associates to make itself more profitable, and thereby attractive to prospective merger partners. This is much like Thelen's recent layoffs that were part of a vain effort to find a merger partner. The effort will probably fail.

Can anyone provide any concrete info about the potential stealth layoffs at Allen & Overy? I just accepted there last week and am curious if I made a poor decision.

Yes, 36, you made a poor decision.

25 = douchebag

Anyone disagree?

any more katten news?

Thanks, 37. That's really informative.

-36

Hey 36 and 40, I think A&O is a much better firm than places like Shearman, despite the fact that part of the firm's name is a part of the female reproductive anatomy (Ovary).

36,

Rest assured that you made a poor decision.

But that's not for me to explain; it's for you to find out.

That said, there is a very good reason why they are urgently seeking associates to lateral in.

41,

A drooling mongoloid with no opposable thumbs wouldn' t make the same mistake you just did.

Overy vs. Ovary.

See the difference? One is part of a named law firm and the other is part of a woman's reproductive system.

21 - how certain are you of your analysis, or should I say, how close to the actual situation are you? I can confirm that *one of the Charlotte offices of one of the firms* you mention above is about to let the ax fall...probably on Friday.

21 - how certain are you of your analysis, or should I say, how close to the actual situation are you? I can confirm that *one of the Charlotte offices of one of the firms* you mention above is about to let the ax fall...probably on Friday.

43,

Phonetically, the words are the same. You clearly missed the humor involved. Don't be pissed at me because you picked up an extra chromosome at HLS.

- Drooling mongoloid WITH thumbs

Which is the better firm, CWT or Katten?

44 (and 45), National firm or local?

Why would a firm lay off associates rather than reduce the number of incoming associates? Doesn't seem to make sense from an economic perspective.

This year has been a bloodbath for UNC 2L's looking to stay in state.

Sorry to hear that 10.

27 and/or 19, what makes Katten so vulnerable? I know they have one of the deeper real estate practices in town. Is it overreliance on those types of clients (many of whom aren't/can't do much of anything right now)?

Why would a firm lay off staff rather than reduce the number of associates? Associates are far more expensive. Doesn't seem to make sense from an economic perspective.

43 before you get your panties in a bunch realize 41's comment was just a stupid funny joke.

Good "catch" there slugger, you will make a fine lawyer one day. The profession needs more diligent folks like you with absolutely no sense of humor. Douche.

45, I'm closer to MVA and to Alston than I am to Parker Poe (MVA shows their client breakdown to most anyone who cares to see; I've heard that they have a nice powerpoint that they show to folks who come on callbacks).

The rumors I've heard about CWT and Sonnenschein are not Charlotte-specific.

45, I'm closer to MVA and to Alston than I am to Parker Poe (MVA shows their client breakdown to most anyone who cares to see; I've heard that they have a nice powerpoint that they show to folks who come on callbacks).

The rumors I've heard about CWT and Sonnenschein are not Charlotte-specific.

Have the rumors of layoffs at STB been confirmed?

49, because incoming associates are more profitable than under-performing 2d and 3d years. Also, I'm pretty sure many of the people being laid off either didn't meet their billables or pissed someone off along the way.

44/45 here (sorry ) - national firm...can't say more b/c "the man" is watching

46: please don't call Hofstra "HLS." It makes me feel less secure in my legal manhood and defames my Harvard degree.

25,

Fuck you! Don't post an asshole comment, then drag Georgetown's name into it.

53,

I am an A&O fourth year associate so of course I'm tired of "humor" from the likes of you and others.

Stop jerking off at the thoughts of the layoffs and start looking out for yourselves.

BTW, it's an old, old, joke. Using it shows that you are creatively impaired.

43 = drooling mongoloid with no sense of humor

50 - That makes it a bloodbath in general for UNC 2L's. Look at the hiring odds for any school outside the T14 to place in biglaw outside of their region.

So, 61, are you confirming A&O layoffs?

52 -- Because attorneys bring in money. Staff don't bill their time. Staff also make attorneys more efficient, but that might actually translate into even more billable hours on the back end.

All the same, it is a shame that they lost their jobs. I hope we can all join together in wishing them a soft landing somewhere along with everyone else who has been hit in this downturn.

Oh, and for all of the jerks who keep calling these firms TTT for cutting people, just remember that you're probably next because everyone hates you.

And you wonder why you're losing jobs?

======================================
Wall Street is plunging again, with the Dow Jones industrials down more than 500 points as investors agonize over the faltering economy. Stocks are down on a combination of disheartening economic data, including a big drop in retail sales and a Federal Reserve report that says tight credit conditions are hurting businesses across the country.

How's the recruiting going at KaTTTen?

25, you will be unsuccessful in most, if not all, facets of life.

Yes, 61, is that a confirmation? I am the one who accepted at A&O last week.

Is it better to be laid off by Allen & Overy rather than Katten?

What looks better on your resume?

The eternal conundrum.

CharloTTTe to 160k!

Does anyone know what to expect in terms of "severance" at A&O and Katten?

Hey, you have to be gentle with 61. He is only a fourth year. Let me try: Its ok, 61, you can tell us about the A&O layoffs. Go ahead, take a breath and let it all out. You'll feel much better.

49 here (not 52),

57 - you're aware that firms lose money on incoming associates right?

Why do you ask 72? Are you getting fired at both firms?

65
Staff does bill time frequently, especially in bankruptcy practice groups. They bill anywhere from 75-295 (as seen in the Lehman Bros. bky. case), with 95 being the average going rate for paraprofessionals.

FIRST!?

74, please do share the source of your reliable information on how firms lose money on incoming associates. Most firms write off about 10-20% of their billable hours, so if an incoming bills 2,000, the firm will collect on between 1,600 and 1,800 hours. Even at $150 an hour that's $240,000 minimum. How exactly is that a loss of money even taking into account benefits, social security, employment taxes, etc.? Oh, and the partners get a deduction for most of those expenses at the end of the year.

Does anyone know what to expect in terms of "severance" at A&O and Katten?

*nervously wrings hands while double checking resume for typos*

-nervous T-10 1L

78 please do shut up and go back to studying for your torts exam.

63 - UNC places fairly well in NoVA/DC and ATL, and good amount of folks have had success in the NE (NYC, Boston). UNC gets a decent amount of respect...top 10% has fighting chance anywhere, and top 25% has solid chance at biglaw in most markets. It's definitely a down year though.

Not a dissalution in the making. Plenty of firms still looking to break into the Chicago market, which has been traditionally tougher to break into than other places, such as, for example, San Francisco.

81, I'm pretty sure I took that exam 6 years ago. But good try.

65 - Concur with 75, staff do bill time to specific client matters. That's why they also get laid off. Or conversely, why clients call up to bitch about their excessive "administrative" fees, i.e., gchat.

Layoffs /= dissolution. Katten is very well managed and will be fine in Chicago (Charlotte on the other hand...).

Katten is also doing fine in NY. They just released the building space and are renovating.

I've been told the standard is in thirds - one third salary, one third expenses/overhead/benefits, one third profit to show if you're making the firm any money. If you're only bringing in 240k there is no way you're not a loss for the firm when you're making 160k plus bonus.

Katten is also doing fine in NY. They just re-leased the building space and are renovating.

63, 50 -- I'm a BigLaw Associate in NYC and know plenty of well respected UNC grads. Keep at it. There's always 3L interviewing.

I'm a UNC 3L with a federal clerkship. We've been placing well all over (CA, NY, Chicago, ATL, etc.), but it is definitely a down year.

What do laid off lawyers do?

Well there's always money laundering.....

http://www.evilesq.com

84, see 88. Also, please review your transcripts to ensure you did, in fact, matriculate into an accredited law school and graduate from same. I'm not convinced.

78: most firms allocate a portion of overall firm overhead (admin staff, share of a secretary and related expenses, utilities, LEXIS, office space, etc.) to each attorney. Those figures are much higher than you might think. My non-coastal firm (AMLAW second hundred) uses an overhead figure north of $150k. An associate who brings in 240k in revenue is certainly a losing proposition where I work.

83,86: Firms "were" looking to get into the Chicago market, they are not looking to get in Chicago now. Katten is a heavy RE firm, and is in danger in this market, like every other RE firm. Dissolution is a possibility here.

87: Katten is doing fine in NY as a product of its Rosenman legacy. Whether that is enough to save the firm is questionable. Leasing space doesn't tell you anything about the firm's health. Just ask the associates in Heller's Seattle office.

i am considering an offer with ropes and gray. will ropes remain stable in this economy and avoid layoffs?

96,

EVERYONE is at risk in the Biglaw environment.

Get used to it. If you get laid off, think of it this way -- it's an opportunity for you to explore new horizons.

~In house Counsel

will brett and ron be ok?

95: Katten has about 35 RE attorneys in Chicago out of a total of about 250. They will not fail simply because their RE group is down.

Firms don't make money off associates. You take a first year making 160k plus 40k+ bonus. Factor in their bar stipend and expenses, if any. Also consider that their first three months will be unproductive since most firms billing years start in January. You also need to add health costs to the firm, payroll taxes, office space, secretaries and support staff costs. I head that once you factor everything in the cost to a firm for one associate is over 350k.

Now do the math. A first year who bills 2000 hours, let's say 15% are written off so that's 1700 hours actually billed to the client. Of those 1700 hours not all will actually result in payment by the client in that fiscal year since some clients take forever to pay. So maybe the firm will actually re-coop 1500 hours worth of time. At a rate of say $300 an hour that's $450,000 the firm might take in.

So at the end of the day a productive associate generates 100k in profit for a large firm. That's nothing. Compare that to what a rainmaker partner brings in, $5 million, and you can see why firms and partners don't really care about associates. We're all replaceable and the difference between a productive associate and a under performing one are negligible financially.

100 - you had me until "re-coop"

If the difference between a productive and underperforming one is negligible, why bother with all the layoffs?

96 -- As a 2L waiting to hear back from Ropes I can confidently tell you that the firm is a sinking ship and you should send in your refusal immediately.

100 - your post demonstrates your lack of law firm economics, and accounting in general. Everyone thinks there are huge write offs, but I very much doubt a decent quality associate is having 15% of their hours written off. Also, 12% non-collections is higher than average. And... just because a bill is not collected in one year does not mean it won't be paid after the new year... accounting periods are important, but cash is king. And don't tell me its all about year end #s to get to bonus and partnership profits... the accounting year will include rollover from prior year, just as current bills will slip into next.

100 -- I don't agree with your math and you obviously don't get the concept of fixed costs. Let's do the math again, considering marginal cost. (1) the firm already has office space, (2) the firm already has copy center, assistants, etc. which are shared b/w 4-5 people anyway. Ok, so if you're a BigLaw 2nd year in NYC getting billed out at $400-plus at even 1500 hours, thats $600,000. Pay maxes out right around $200k, leaving (still) a $400,000 margin to cover health insurance, FICA contributions, etc. and your partners' kids' college tuition several times over. Works for me.

NOW, if you're working for a TTT with 2nd year rates at only about $200 and you're still trying to pay them NYC scale when they're only brining in $300k things get a lot uglier.

Why did regionals ever start paying so high? You've got me...and such is the problem we're all seeing. Alot less of a cushion for falling billables.

IT MAKES THE MOST SENSE, FINANCIALLY AND OTHERWISE, TO AXE UNDERPERFORMING PARTNERS FIRST.

Sorry for the caps, but I think that sentiment warrants it.

Because if you have a bunch of associates sitting around doing absolutely nothing then you are spending 350k a year on them and they are generating no revenue at all so you're actually losing 350k instead of making 100k for each associate. In Clifford case, if you have 20 litigation associates doing nothing then you are losing over $7 million a year. Might as well lay them off.

By unproductive associate I mean someone billing like 1700 hours a year.

This is a sad day for those hit by the layoffs, and for the firm, which is a great place that has always punched above its weight. To have started just over 30 years ago and to have almost 700 lawyers is some achievement.

Please get facts in order. Over 5 main offices in US and London office as well as sat. offices, Katten has just over 120 lawyers in real estate related industries. That is tax, finance, litigation, securities, foreclosure, etc as well as the dirt work. A number of these lawyers are not solely focused on real estate. So only about 80 lawyers in total focus solely on RE. Out of almost 700 lawyers.

This is a big story, but don't start spreading lies about a decent firm trying to do the decent thing by its lawyers, formwer associates, and clients.

108 - for transparency, in the future, please identify yourself as a member of Katten PR. Thanks for your cooperation.

Altheimer & Gray just released a bunch of people in Chicago today, too.

1st years don't make crap for a firm. Its the e.g. 5th years getting billed out at $550/hour billing 2400 hours a year that make a BIGLAW firm money. So what do firms do... continuously dump on said 5th year night, day and weekend and make them miserable until they quit to move to Florida to become a scuba instructor for $30,000/year. The firm then has to go on the market a hire a hit/miss lateral that it has to retrain and incorporate into the culture/group dynamic and hope said later might become valuable within a year but said lateral is probably trying just to squeeze another year of midlevel salary and bonus out of his new firm in order to pay off the last of his loans and then move to Florida to teach scuba diving. BIGLAW firm wastes resources again. Total mismanagement.

Under my law firm economic plan, jerk off 1st years would be paid $100K at most which they will gladly take with their $150k law school debt. Pay the 5th year $400K/year, plus a hefty bonus and make sure you keep them there by monitoring and spreading out their hours and thus limiting attrition. The firm will not have to rely on 2-3 seniors per group and a disproportionate number of 1st years that don't even know how to do a spell check or a global search for a certain term. Then said 5th year will not leave and move to Florida to be a scuba instructor. The firm will continue to make money. This structure will also put annoying ass, cold-calling headhunters with "unique positions at exciting international firm" out of business and the world would be a better place.

For all you grammar geeks who respond that I missed a comma somewhere, I didn't take time to proof so keep your "mark-ups" to yourself.

MVA is a really solid regional firm. Of all the remaining firms like it, I really thought they'd be the last to have to resort to layoffs... staff or otherwise.

Why do people keep calling these "layoffs"? Layoffs typically mean temporary discharges, mostly in the union context where the last person laid off will be the first person called back when business improves. I highly doubt Katten will be calling any of these associates back if and when things pick up. These are terminations, firings, being "let go". Not layoffs.

105: (1) the firm already has office space, (2) the firm already has copy center, assistants, etc. which are shared b/w 4-5 people anyway. -- the firms still have to allocate these costs to attorneys; the rent, staff salaries, lexis bills, newspapers, coffee, etc. still need to get paid for. Those costs, plus benefits, are over 100k per associate and probably much higher in elite NYC offices.

Maybe with the loss of Wachovia MVA will become less of a sweatshop. Their corporate side does not do huge m&a deals (or lots of them), they are primarily finance.

Boston's bleeding today. Hill & Barlow (Deval Patrick's old firm) let go a TON of senior partners. Testa has a 4:30 meeting, and people are on edge.

109, I am former Katten, many happy years, now in house. Been coming here for a long time. Do I need to sign off my comments with references to Herpes, or TTT, or that guys in my old law firm used ot make hard decisions about laying off good people due a shitty environment, and it was a big deal.

Not everyone hates the place they once worked at. Tool.

109, I am former Katten, many happy years, now in house. Been coming here for a long time. Do I need to sign off my comments with references to Herpes, or TTT, or that guys in my old law firm used to make hard decisions about laying off good people due a shitty environment, and it was a big deal. Does that make my point valid?

Not everyone hates the place they once worked at. Tool.

105 - the rent for that office space still needs to be paid.

Hey 111 - what do you have against scuba instructors with JDs? Haven't you read "The Firm?" There's clearly a need.

Hey 111 - what do you have against scuba instructors with JDs? Haven't you read "The Firm?" There's clearly a need.

There is absolutely no indication that A&B will be laying people off in Charlotte, not sure where that rumor came from.

117/118 - please hit the "post comment" button one time. Not two times, one time. Uno. Ein. Seriously, it's not difficult.

17/118 - please hit the "post comment" button one time. Not two times, one time. Uno. Ein. Seriously, it's not difficult.

111: That's a great plan and when you start your own firm you should try it and let us know how it goes. All other firms unfortunately have to live in the world of supply and demand and in times that do not involve a global financial meltdown and recession firms are aggressively competing for the law students that are coming over that three year, hard work, no income, $100,000 barrier to entry known as law school. Combine that with transparent pricing and the market moves to where it has to move. Firms were paying first years $100k at some point but then market forces caused them to decide to pay more because they wanted first years and that was the going price.

Though, I would actually love to see what would happen if firms tried to lower salaries for incoming first years.

Partners at my biglaw firm bill out for less than $550. But they still had to match first year salaries to compete for "top talent."

Ron and Brett are rockstars

Milton, Chadwick & Waters cut 10 IP litigators today.

Cage Fish just gave the whole corporate department notice that they should find other employment within 90 days.

Whitcomb Wiley has a meeting at 5....

100,

There are several flaws in your logic. First, just because certain clients take forever to pay doesn't mean they don't pay. There's no support out there that the delay in payment is anywhere near worth over 10% of a year's worth of billables. Even if the client takes a year to pay the bill, the value of that money goes down by the rate of inflation, which is not anywhere near double digits. Second, delayed payment affects everyone: associates and partners. Associates are not blamed for lack of on-time payment, the client is. Third, "productive associates" generate a lot more profit than $100,000 a year. 88 is right, productive associates usually make the firm three times his/her salary (base plus bonus), gross. Take away the salary and overhead costs, the firm should take a profit equal to what the associate takes home. So a 3rd year associate who makes $250,000 after bonus should generate that amount, at least, in profit for the firm. Your idea of a "productive associate" is just wrong. Fourth, firms value the genuinely productive associates more than just what they secure the firm in profits. Productive associates take off pressure from the partner. Strong and reliable associates generate partner trust and allow the partners to take on more work. Too many times people forget that partners need to rely on their associates.

I don't think 100 is a "productive associate.

117/118 - please hit the "post comment" button one time. Not two times, one time. Uno. Ein. Seriously, it's not difficult.

128,

So Ally McBeal is out of a job?

95. Katten is definitely having some trouble, but they are conservatively managed with little debt and none of the Sonnenschein-esque problems of too many lateral partners with guaranteed payments not generating any revenue. The Rosenman legacy is carrying the New York office, but the fact is, that is a very nice, stable bit of business. If things go even further in the toilet, are they at risk of dissolving? Yes, but so are a lot of other firms, I definitely would not put them anywhere near the Sonnenschein level of riskiness right now.

Katten is only laying off GULCers and Hofstra grads.

126, sorry to inform you that your firm is not biglaw if your partners are billing out for $550.

124/130 - that was funny the first few hundred times. Now it comes across as pathetic. Oh, it doesn't work when there are intervening posts. Toolbox.

For the record, MVA "let-go" of about 40 staff workers today, no associates were let go in this "let-go" phase and all the staffers were not directly involved with Wachovia, although some were.

Any idea how many associates were asked to leave Katten?

This market is just horrendous. Another problem - work is so slow that partners are doing associate level work without hesitation, just so they can at least show each other that they are in fact busy. They do this instead of trying to drum up what little business is out there, so the cycle of no-new-deals goes on. Associates are left reading this crap blog while trying to look busy, and there are no new prospects for work coming in, unless you're lucky en ough to work for some mega-bank that will be gone in 6 months (6 dyas?!) and is scrambling like hell to avoid its own disaster.

138,

Unless you're Jamie Dimon's son in law, you're in deep doo-doo.

Armageddon!

if there are any Katten people out there who could let us know what is going on....

141,

The DOW skidded down more than 600 points today after a crappy retail month. The consumption economy is slowing down drastically and given that it's 70 percent of the national economy, it seems a given that we are in a recession.

What more do you want to know?

More to the point, the economy is going to shit and associates are going to find themselves all fungibled out of a job.

139,

Unless you're Johnny Damon's son-in-law, you're not getting good seats at the new Yankee Stadium

142 -

141 meant at Katten in terms of how many people have been let go, not in the national economy. douche.

144,

Yes, I can see that you're missing the forest for the trees.

Enjoy your parochial perspective; in this day and age, you are a fungible associate.

Enjoy

~In House Counsel

122- The word on the street in Charlotte is that the A&B IP people are safe, while the finance people aren't so safe.

115- MVA does do a lot of deals; the average dollar value of those deals, however, is quite low as compared to large(r) national firms.

Really 142? Lawyers are getting laid off because the economy isn't good... thanks for clarifying.

145, don't think youre' safe b/c your In House Counsel.

I've seen many a in house fired in bad times. Something tells me you just invited karma to bite you right in the ass. Good luck!

Damn, this does not bode well for GULC grads or Mark Wallberg.

hey goat, how's it going?

145,

In-house counsel are considered cost-centers. While often cheaper than the alternative, they are always primo on the list of low-hanging short-term cutbacks. Also, when we buy other companies, we keep their lawyers if they are better and cheaper and dump the ones we have that we no longer want.

Sincerely,

The Original Frat Stud Who Moved into a Higher Compensated Line Position, Who Wants to Know Why our Outside Legal Bills are So High and Why You Don't Scrutinize Them

This board is hilarious. Do people like 105 seriously think NYC second year associates are billed out at $400-plus per hour?

That's more like the billing rate of a seventh year or a junior partner at a V50 firm.

Do some research before spouting off your ignorance:
http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1197281080646
"Among those firms reporting average and median rates both this year and last year, the average of the average firmwide billing rate increased to $348 per hour from $321 in 2006, and the average of the median firmwide billing rate this year was $347, compared to $324 in 2006.
...
At Greenberg Traurig, the range for partners first reported was between $300 and $1,000 an hour, with a partner billing average of $490 and a median of $500. ...
The other law firm reporting a $1,000-an-hour rate was Wilmer Cutler Pickering Hale and Dorr, where the partner billing range ran from $475 to $1,000.
...The Atlanta firm [Sutherland] reported the high end of its associate range at $415, compared with $530 in 2006. "

150 here, sorry. Meant 146, not 145. 145, you are probably safe.

Not so sure about 146 and his very own parochial perspective.

I recently cut back on my exposure to Collateralized Debt Obligations...

I strongly suggest that other associates do the same.

152,

If you can't keep the numbers straight, what good are you as an associate?!

BTW, any one want to buy a house in the Hamptons? I have a wonderful opportunity, thanks to the General Counsel.

There will be opportunities out there for those with cash. If you have student loans, well, you're definitely at a disadvantage -- no job and no prospect of repayment.

~In House Counsel

I cut a lot of attorneys today.

- Sweeney Todd

I know for a fact that MVA has pulled offers and I have heard they are eliminating their summer program nexxt year. Don't know why, just that it sounds bad.

All rumors and speculation over here at Katten. Management is keeping mum, which is pretty disappointing to all of the associates here who feel we should be hearing about lay-off from them, rather than reading about them on a blog. Supposedly, if you haven't heard by today, you are safe.

155,

Now that's funny!

151-

V20 2nd year associate here. Billing rate = $400/hr. Just checked it on the firm's internal accounting website.

All rumors and speculation over here at Katten. Management is keeping mum, which is pretty disappointing to all of the associates here who feel we should be hearing about lay-off from them, rather than reading about them on a blog. Supposedly, if you haven't heard by today, you are safe.

151-I am an eighth year at v50 and I bill out at $650. $400 for a second year doesn't sound that far off.

151 - yes, some 2nd years at biglaw do indeed bill out at 400.

134, really? My firm has over one thousand lawyers, offices abroad, is V100, and I work in a major city. -126

156- MVA does callbacks differently than most firms; they do the vast majority of their callbacks on two Fridays (I think they call them "Flyback Fridays.") I've heard that they gave most of those who came on the first Friday (9/5 or 9/12, not sure which) offers for the summer but dinged everyone who came on 9/26.

151-I am an eighth year at v50 and I bill out at $650. $400 for a second year doesn't sound that far off.

157, wait so Katten hasn't announced anything officially? Are people just getting an e-mail? A partner walking into their office with a cup of coffee and the words, "Umh, whaaat's happening..." Lumburg style? How are these layoffs being communicated?

151-I am an eighth year at v50 and I bill out at $650. $400 for a second year doesn't sound that far off.

151 - I'm also at a V50 firm in NYC and our 2nd years bill out at over $450/hr - closer to $500 than $450.

I'm a fourth year and I bill out at over $550/hr.

163 - stop trying so hard. just because goliath was a giant, still a loser.

163 - stop trying so hard. just because goliath was a giant, still a loser.

163 - stop trying so hard. just because goliath was a giant, still a loser.

161, 165 and 167 here-sorry about the multiple posts. This server sucks.

86 is right. Katten is managed extremely well and these layoffs are not a precursor to dissolution but instead a little bit of trimming necessary to ensure what will definitely be a prosperous year, even in this economy.

Congrats on having a billing rate higher than many biglaw junior partners. Too bad you're not paid like the junior partners.

Individual Katten associates are being asked into a partner's office and given the news. Not sure if you can decline the invitation.

151, I was an associate at a V20 firm and litigation 2nd years billed out at more than $400 an hour.

I would not be surprised if MVA cancelled its summer program. Its a massive waste of money for them since their yield is insanely low (somewhere around 25-33% of summers end up there).

I cut a lot of attorneys today.

- Sweeney Todd

Katten management has not communicated with associates because these 20 layoffs are not the end of the layoffs. More will follow.

Partners that are only billing 400 or 500 an hour are junior partners that are in some cases making less than what V20 senior associates make with bonus and less than counsel at those firms.

173
Are you a Katten partner or a member of the firms PR department? Associates just don't write the way you do in your post, especially on this blog.
Anyone who says next year will be a "prosperous" year is ignoring reality. Perhaps it won't be the economic apocalypse forecast by some, but prosperous? Gimme a fuckin' break.

#179 - How do you know that? Also, can someone tell me what "TTT" means?

MVA's yield on the summer program might be better if they went more than 6 weeks (it begs folks to split and see that there are many greener pastures in Charlotte and elsewhere).

Charlotte and the South suck.

Next.

TTT=Third Tier Toilet

183: MVA changed that this past year (still only allowed short summer to save money, but required first half). The only reason summers chose them was because they offered second half.

So I'm one of 20 lucky Katten associates?

179, know how i know you are full of shit? Coz its not 20 associates affected. You quickly read the top and decided to post. Well it was 20 staff members at MVA. Katten number is different. Localized to Chicago, with the other offices having shed some time ago. Katten will be fine, and all major offices will be intact. Can't say teh same for some of our other Chicago law firm brethren, but those bastards were always a little too cocky.

Serious question -- why aren't associates being proactive and offering to start at a lower salary level. You just might miss being called into the Katten offices and laid off.

If having a job is better than not, it seems to be a normal response to a glut of supply and low demand to compete on price. Just like the housing market. You gotta sell low to move the property.

185 - Thank you. BTW - today really was the scariest day at Katten. I am here and safe, but spent most of the day trying to figure out how to afford my apartment in case the end came. So please don't make fun of the Katten people - because many of us were reading this blog because it was the only way for us to get information (it certainly wasn't coming from anywhere else.) It's unnecessary to make us feel bad about the firm we work for, and are praying isn't about to fire us.

so can anyone from Katten tell us who ron and brett are?

Open letter to Katten’s management/PR people (who are clearly reading this blog): WHERE ARE YOU? Why all the secrecy?

Thank you - well put, 190. Can you tell us what you know?

Open letter to Katten’s management/PR people (who are clearly reading this blog): WHERE ARE YOU? Why all the secrecy?

A&B isn't laying off anyone in any office. Confirmed. Bad information.

Ellie, why haven't you updated this string, you fat fuck?

Elie, why haven't you updated this string, you fat fuck?

195 - how do you know?

Confirmed with A&B partners. No one has been laid off and there are no plans to lay anyone off.

194. I was on here during the Sonneshit story and Paul Hastings, and I would write stuff like you have. Convinced that Partners were reading this. Well today I can tell you that all teh associates have ATL open, and some, like me, are posting. But the partners are acting like nothing is going on, save the odd red eyed associate leaving with a small box (they can come back later for everything).

My point? PR people don't give a shit about this blog.

186,

Interesting- thanks for the info. I understand why MVA went to first half, but I wonder whether it is, on net, a good thing. Surely, some good people who wouldn't otherwise have considered MVA came and had a look, and unless MVA is just a miserable place to be, some of them must have stayed. Is that worth ~$20,000/candidate? That's a tough question...

-183

P.S. 184, don't knock it until you've tried it. A&B is apparently still hiring IP folks at $160,000. That goes a long way in Charlotte...

It's total BS that Katten management does not have the cajones to tell its associates about this up front and is letting Above the Law do its dirty work. Management is a bunch of cowardly liars. The head of the litigation department sat in the dining room 3 weeks ago telling litigation that Katten was prepared for the economic downturn. Apparently he neglected to tell his department that Katten was also prepared to make cuts - and most likely planning them at the time.

But that's typical of Katten. Lie enough to your associates, be as mysterious as possible, and maybe you will be able to kid yourself that things are really just a-ok.

Went to a softball game between law schools KMZR organized a couple of years ago and all the partners I met SUCKED. It seemed like the worst place ever to work with those people.

How much were people getting laid off billing over last 2-3 months? For the year? Are we talking people that have billed 500 the entire year, 1000 hours or 1500 hours since January? Or is all this right out of the blue based on some office politics not tied directly to performance.

What's going on at Jenner?

204 -
Low billables does not equal low performance if your group is slow enough. If there's not enough work to go around, your performace can be top notch and your billables can be piss poor low through no fault of your own.

188 = Katten Partner/PR douche trying a little too hard to write like a bored associate ATL reader.

Word, bitches.

Most of the litigation partners at Katten are awesome and many of them have gone above-and-beyond for me. I will say that the department head laid it on a little thick a few weeks ago when he was talking about Katten's financial health.

209 are you talking about DK?

207 -- What depts? Info on numbers? Class years? How'd it go down? Anything?

I am with 209. I really like all the litigation partners I have worked with at Katten. For what it's worth, I have not yet heard any official confirmation that this is actually happening.

To my knowledge, there have been Chicago layoffs in litigation and real estate.

F/K/A (Former Katten Associate)

Wasnt' talking about DK. The lay-offs are definitely happening. Some of the departments are smart enough to have partners on "rumor patrol" who have confirmed. I have heard they are laying off 21 associates nationwide and if you are one of them you would know by the end of today.

For fucks sake. I know we assume that anyone sticking up for a firm is a partner, but maybe, just maybe, some of us associates are happy where we work, and accept that tough choices have to be made, even though we had hoped that our firm was different.

I am 188 and I am not a partner or PR Douche. I wish we had PR Douches who actually did some internal PR, but all Katten associates know our PR people are useless, and find it hard to get our MoMa event any coverage, let alone handle a real story.

So sorry if I came across as a Katten Partner trying to spin. Instead I am a Katten associate trying to spin. This is a good place that lets people work hard and do well. Partners help each other out, and the office work well enough together, though there is a little NY, CHI thing going on. Katten has held out a long time, and while it has not announced all its layoffs, it has been clear to those fired, those behind and any potential employers that these decisins were economy driven. As an associate that is all you can hope for. If I still need to work on my Bona Fides let me say that you are ttt, I went to a t14 school, that Ellie sucks, bring back Lat, and Kash will you date me even though you don't know me and I only have 2 angled pictures to go by.

208 is right. 188 is in the tank for Katten PR. Note how 188 seems to know the number of FIRED associates while the actual associates seem to be in the dark.

188 -- more details please! Might as well get ahead of it before we make it up for you. The downward spiral of rumors is hard to stop once it starts.

Wasnt' talking about DK. The lay-offs are definitely happening. Some of the departments are smart enough to have partners on "rumor patrol" who have confirmed. I have heard they are laying off 21 associates nationwide and if you are one of them you would know by the end of today.

20 was the number for MVA. Not Katten. I am waiting to hear the offical word, and I honestly believe that someone will be smart enough to respond, seeing as this is now on ATL. HOWEVER, there was no firm wide email the last time, so who knows. Anyway, I hope I have proved my point that not everyone who is positive about Katten and likes the place and says it is a good place to work is Katten PR. I honestly do not think they are smart enough to comment. And I don't think management would allow it.

214 -- how do you know there will be more? Do all associates have that info, or are you special?

No 218, I am talking about layoffs in the past. Not future. I hope not future. Katten Management has not, ever, sent out an email or held a meeting saying that x associates in x office were let go.

http://obamaisscum.blogspot.com/

A few people in Marketing were also laid off as well

A few people in Marketing were also laid off as well

A few people in Marketing were also laid off as well

A few people in Marketing were also laid off as well

Got laid off from Katten corporate dept today. Hours related. Not sure what else there is to tell.

Got laid off from Katten corporate dept today. Hours related. Not sure what else there is to tell.

Got laid off from Katten corporate dept today. Hours related. Not sure what else there is to tell.

Got laid off from Katten corporate dept today. Hours related. Not sure what else there is to tell.

Got laid off from Katten corporate dept today. Hours related. Not sure what else there is to tell.

Got laid off from Katten corporate dept today. Hours related. Not sure what else there is to tell.

Got laid off from Katten corporate dept today. Hours related. Not sure what else there is to tell.

how do those people laid off feel about first year associates that just started? should the firm have just delayed their start dates?

232 --- bigger problems are coming. Eventually there won't be any first year associates. BigLaw will have Indians doing the scut work overseas.

Did anyone get laid off in Katten's LA Office?

Sorry to hear it, Katten folks.

To the rest of you d-bags poking fun at their situation, karma is a son of a bitch. These individuals may be supporting entire families, have no prospects due to the economy, etc. That shit isn't funny.

235 is spot on. It's not something that is Kosher to joke about.

I agree, although i survived, i fear some of my close friends might not be there tomorrow.

Any cuts from the Katten insurance litigation dept?

238 - no.

As far as how the situation panned out, departments handled it differently. Some groups had meetings all together, other groups had partners calling everyone in individually to explain what was going, still others had the head of the particular department making the rounds, explaining what was going down.

So there was some communication. I think it really broke down between the partnership. Some partners in New York really didn't have a clue what was going down - the disconnect was stark as a lot of people were singing about the firm's health right until the last minute. Very much a decision from on high. Except on high was Chicago.

238 - yes. Several. I was one of them.

4, I'm in Atlanta and haven't heard about any layoffs this week. Any more news? I have some friends at Smith Gambrell and they don't know of any, either.

I would be surprised if there were cuts at A+B finance in Charlotte since it is mostly a servicing group and does not focus much on new loan originations.

238 - PULEESE - Do you really think anyone working in insurance litigation with DK will ever be laid off? They sealed their fate when they walked through the door. It's their decision to leave or stay, not the firm's.

238 - PULEESE - Do you really think anyone working in insurance litigation with DK will ever be laid off? They sealed their fate when they walked through the door. It's their decision to leave or stay, not the firm's.

DISSECTION OF LAYOFFS: The layoffs occurred throughout the day. It started with the corporate department in the early afternoon, where they told the first person fired that they were firing two others. Then, the financial services department called people in one by one to say whether they were "safe" or not, and that they were also letting three people go. At that point, people still assumed it would just be the corporate and fsg departments. Then, at about two, there was a real estate meeting where they announced that every single department would be laying off people. That started a major hysteria amongst the associates who had not yet heard anything (i.e. trusts and estates and litigation were just sitting on their asses waiting, and financial services had made it clear it was cutting three folks, but hadn't actually fired all of tthose people yet). Everyone sat around until about 4-4:30pm waiting to get a phone call stating whether they were fired or not. Eventually, litigation and financial services completed their layoffs. Maybe the next time they're laying of 21 folks, they should arrange to start the firings at the same time of day so that people aren't just sitting at their desks waiting. Enough money was lost at Katten yesterday because of unproductive and frightened associates that they could have paid an associate's salary for a year. Oh, and the firm's having a cocktail party today - real nice.

DK doesn't even do insurance litigation. Nice try though.

I work at A&O and I can assure you there have been no layoffs - stealth or otherwise. Although I haven't heard of any specifics, I wouldn't be surprised if 1 or 2 people received bad reviews and were told they should focus their career efforts elsewhere. That is hardly a layoff - I can assure you that every single law firm, bank, private company, etc does that when the economy is good and when the economy is bad. When you have 150+ attorneys, it's not surprising that you have 1 or 2 that are not performing.

I work at A&O and I can assure you there have been no layoffs - stealth or otherwise. Although I haven't heard of any specifics, I wouldn't be surprised if 1 or 2 people received bad reviews and were told they should focus their career efforts elsewhere. That is hardly a layoff - I can assure you that every single law firm, bank, private company, etc does that when the economy is good and when the economy is bad. When you have 150+ attorneys, it's not surprising that you have 1 or 2 that are not performing.

Sorry, Class Actions under the guise of AIG.

Anyone at Katten know what's happening as far as staff? Secretaries are sure feeling vulnerable.

LA is doing well. Most cuts were in Chicago and Charlotte.

How many Katten lay offs were there in Charlotte?

How many Katten lay offs were there in Charlotte?

How many Katten lay offs were there in Charlotte?

MVA doesn't manage to keep many because their pay scale sucks. Sure they start you out at top of the market ($145k), but their raises per year are significantly less than market. Making it difficult to justify doing the same job, in the same city for about $25k less a year in 4 years.

Secretaries are being pulled from their positions to their floating staff, which will be the next BIG lay off.

Secretaries are being pulled from their positions to their floating staff, which will be the next BIG lay off.

How many Katten lay offs were there in Charlotte?

Double post

"Katten is managed extremely well "

How would you know? Management is a black box--they don't even tell all the members of the executive (or wahtever the name is) committee everything. If you aren't part of the inner clique, you don't know anything.

"Katten is managed extremely well "

How would you know? Management is a black box--they don't even tell all the members of the executive (or wahtever the name is) committee everything. If you aren't part of the inner clique, you don't know anything.

Hey -

Does anyone have some insight here? I am a 2L with an offer at Katten Chicago. I really like the firm and the people and I had a strong gut feeling that I would fit in there so I was leaning towards accepting their offer over another. Does this strike everyone as a terrible idea?

251, Secretaries at KMR will be hit the hardest as far as staff is concerned - before the first week of December. Not saying that to scare you, but if you have bad reviews in your past, only work for 1 or 2 attorneys, or are a floater - you are on the chopping block.

No, I think you should accept the offer. They aren't cutting first years. Your billing rate would be low, so that is good for the firm. Katten's cuts are done. It was a big decision to make nationwide cuts. That hasn't happened since the 1980s, and it isn't likely to happen again.

I have not heard anything about Charlotte layoffs. That may not be correct. It seems that the satellite offices are in good shape.

264, you seem to know a lot. All floaters?

267, no, like I said, you should only be worried if you've had a bad review or only work for 1-2 attorneys (not those who work for only 1 or 2 major partners, but those who only work for 1-2 attorneys b/c no other attorney will work with you). Some floaters with good reviews are being kept.

NO ASSOCIATES LET GO IN CLT. Anyone saying otherwise is lying. CLT did have issues earlier but it is doing fine. Here in NY, a lot got let go. Not just re

There were layoffs in LA. More will be revealed.

There were layoffs in LA. More will be revealed.

268 - I don't agree with you at all. I had a heavy assignment (more then 2) and have never had a bad review in my life.

268 - I don't agree with you at all. I had a heavy assignment (more then 2) and have never had a bad review in my life.

268 - I don't agree with you at all. I had a heavy assignment (more then 2) and have never had a bad review in my life.

well then, 274, if you have more than 2 and get good reviews you are the least likely to worry. You don't fall in the criteria so what are you disagreeing with? Secretaries are going to be hit the hardest b/c there are the most there that need to be trimmed - thats no surprise. If you feel you're safe, you probably are.

275: "Secretaries are going to be hit the hardest b/c there are the most there that need to be trimmed"

You have no idea. Some of them are like 250lbs or more.

Posted by guest | Wednesday, October 15, 2008 11:43 PM

Eventually there won't be any first year associates. BigLaw will have Indians doing the scut work overseas.
__________________________________________

That doesn't make sense. First years get the experience they need to actually be of eventual use by doing "scut work"; unless firms plan to eliminate associateship altogether and outsource everything every associate (including midlevels and seniors)does to India (and no longer groom future partners, thus ensuring their own demise), they can't outsource all low-level associate work to India. The fact that they can pay Indian lawyers less in total compensation doesn't mean that won't end up eventually costing more in terms of lost productivity and firm growth opportunities. Ultimately, they are not here, do legal work directly here for clients here--and there is no replacement for that.

Hey, 276 -- go to hell. 'bags like you make the workplace suck.

I thought 275 was funny. And sadly, its true. KMR has some really BIG secretaries. I mean really BIG. I always thought it was an epidemic here.

As a former KMZer, (15+ years) it always seemed to be an yearly reoccurrence to farm out the dead weight whether it was staff and/or attorneys. KMZ is a good firm and will be around a long time. My only feeling about this is some firms hire 20 new 1st years and some only 8. Overhiring is never good for any company. All these major layoffs only hurt the corporation as the morale of the remaining employees hurts production. I left on my own accord and found life after KMZ at a very stable firm that has never had a mass layoff at any level. They hire what they need, not to be the biggest firm in Chicago.

279 - what kind of a moron are you ?

276 & 279 - that was totally uncalled for.

has anyone heard the latest about what is going on at KMR? anyone know anything about staff being let go?

283, who cares about staff, lawyers were let go!!!!!!!!!!!

283 - read 264 above.

284 - read 264 above. Staff cares about staff since lawyers obviously don't.

After reading this crazy blog, I have to say this is completely disgusting. To think that attorneys in KMR would be so cruel to curse off the secretaries and post it on the site is the biggest turn-off. I am horrified and nauseated. As for the 250 pound secretaries, what does that have to do with the quality of their work? Oh, and one more very important thing. Let me just say that the Financial Services Department is not, and I repeat NOT "sitting around and doing nothing." Additionally, no one is "sweating bullets" either.

286, Maybe, just maybe, those aren't Katten attorneys. This blog is full of losers (mainly law students) who post crap about firms they never heard of.

I don't agree with you at all. I had a assignment (more then 2) and have never had a bad review in my life. I now float. Lay-off is coming!!!

I don't agree with you at all. I had a assignment (more then 2) and have never had a bad review in my life. I now float. Lay-off is coming!!!

I don't agree with you at all. I had a assignment (more then 2) and have never had a bad review in my life. I now float. Lay-off is coming!!!

290, not all floaters are going as far as I know. If you are a floater and do go, it does not necessarily mean you are a bad employee - but they are getting rid of the fluff which includes those with bad reviews. a lot of floaters will be let go regardless of reviews - its just cut backs. If you are let go, good luck, I'm sure you'll find something after the new year. Secretaries are always needed at firms. You'll find something.

Katten sucks and upper management is RETARDED

F*ck Katten

I worked for 3 as well and now float . . . it has nothing to do with bad reviews

286 - You must be one of the "big" secretaries. Just eat another cheeseburger.

286 - You must be one of the "big" secretaries. Just eat another cheeseburger.

I see my secretary sleeping at her desk almost daily, she should be on the top of the list to go.

Moore & Van Allen laid off 34 staff October 15 from all departments.

Moore & Van Allen laid off 34 staff October 15 from all departments.

Seriously? This gets two threads, and ATL Publically blesses Dechert!!

Is Elie really going to pretend he didn't have his ass handed to him by the commentators in the Dechert thread? Is he going to ignore the Dechert situation and have Kash write all the posts from now on?

297, you should absolutely let her manager know that. It may save another secretary who doesn't deserve to be let go. Things won't change unless you are vocal about the problems.

The Dechert View on "layoffs":

"In my view, layoffs are when you decide to cut headcount. It's not when you decide to replace people with better people." -- Bart Winokur

I'm sure staff is next to go.

I'm sure staff is next to go.

The head of the partnership review committee there at KMR is a totally condescending and arrogant douchebag

108 - there is nothing "decent" about Katten. From my years wasted there, all the folks with any shred of decency leave as soon as they can. Message to those laid off from this evil place: you are much better off!! I know you can't see it right now, but they just did you a huge favor.

Former 6th year KMR assocaite- I quit in May- 306 has it right- it's a terrible place to work- all the partners are foaming mad dogs.....and many of the associates are back stabbers b/c of the lack of work.

Former 6th year KMR assocaite- I quit in May- 306 has it right- it's a terrible place to work- all the partners are foaming mad dogs.....and many of the associates are back stabbers b/c of the lack of work.

Former 6th year KMR assocaite- I quit in May- 306 has it right- it's a terrible place to work- all the partners are foaming mad dogs.....and many of the associates are back stabbers b/c of the lack of work.

306 -- you are so right. Katten is a TTT -- but I still have a job, for now, so I guess I'm lucky. I hear that staff don't get any severance unless they sign an agreement never to talk about this place. Also, no letters of rec are allowed. Way to treat your staff! I feel sorry for all of them.

Layoffs hit Moore And Van Allen in RTP today...I was one of 5 for right now

Well, I know for a fact that there is a partner at MVA in the RE dept. initials.. bpm. He's a real slime ball. Will screw anything with a virginia. That's why there are so many lay offs there!