For the rest of your lives, your LSAT and nothing else should determine your success.

First to say first but not actually be first

last

does anyone actually fail out of schools like columbia? short of forgetting to come to the final?

Yeah Elie, because you never received any "gifts" in your law school career.

This is going to make it very hard for CoA Judges and V-10 firms (that require good grades, even from good schools) to make their decisions. What is going to be the new criterion? Recommendations? Undergraduate school?

Is NYU still ABA accredited?

will the fact that my school gives grades help me get a 1L sa position over no-grade 1L’s?

*goes back to reading property and dreaming about 3k/week (and the models and bottle which will follow)*

-nervous T-10 1L

Oh, so this blog is about law school now?

Who fu*king cares?!

First (but only under the new grading system).

Seriously, NYU is thinking about grade reform? How about giving students and official GPA and class rank?

More annoying- NYU students whining about grades, or Elie whining about NYU students whining about grades in a poorly written post?

But, Elie, you went to HLS, a school not exactly known for its tough stance on grades over the past decade.

Disclaimer - this post was by a graduate of Harvard, a 'trend setter' of sorts in the grade-inflation milieu.

as a clerk reviewing applications from schools with all these fcked up grading systems, i think this disadvantages applicants. everyone knows these schools are prestigious. but, now they know more than ever that the students are being coddled. i'd rather see someone from a lower school ranked in the top 5 or 10 percent with a transcript of genuine achievement.

everyone's a winner!

If they add the a+, it will balance out, in a distorted kind of way. a+ or bust!

This is just dumb. How would this help anyone if an employer is simply going to discount the higher curve?

see.. this is what happens when we allow kids to grow up in a culture where no one keeps scores at little league games, and everyone gets a "participation trophy". we waiver at the sign of a little competition. this is seriously weak, and it makes me sick.

This grade reform stuff ends with NYU - the truly prestigious University of Chicago will never give up our lovely 155-186 grading scale.

The grading system used the US is totally screwed up and now it’s getting even worse. Take a C average student from an English law school and he will more than likely get an A aggregate at most law schools in the US. This is not because the legal education over there is better- in fact it’s far worse - it’s because most academic institutions in the US hand out distinctions as if they were noddy badges.

what do you expect from the generation that grew up in elementary school where students received "Student of the Month" awards because it was their turn to win it and not because they did anything special.

14 is correct. As a clerk screening applications, I look for substance of course work and achievement. A passing grade in contracts from a HLS student means nothing to me. What does pass mean? It means the same thing as "pass" on the bar exam without any quantification: attaining the MINIMUM THRESHOLD.

Students who attend top 25-50 schools, I have found, work harder, have more substantive resumes, and are more likely to succeed than those who attend schools like HYS and believe they are entitled to positions on the basis of their HYS matriculation.

21 is right on. Note to the kids out there: most of you are NOT special or remarkable in any way. By definition, most of you are average, with a large number of you being BELOW average. Don't let your guidance counselors tell you differently.

The grading system used the US is totally screwed up and now it’s getting even worse. Take a C average student from an English law school and he will more than likely get an A aggregate at most law schools in the US. This is not because the legal education over there is better- in fact it’s far worse - it’s because most academic institutions in the US hand out distinctions as if they were noddy badges.

at

I worked moderately hard during 1L and talked my way into a firm that supposedly is way too selective to offer a slacker like me. I now drink 5 days a week during 2L and have not opened a book this year. Just give me my B's, please. I could not give less of a s*** about our curve.

This is pathetic.

Grade are even more important for the top jobs that the NYU whiners claim they're shut out of, to distinguish between the smart and the unusually gifted.

Employers understand that a grade at a good school indicates that student's performance in relation to others at the school, and they have an understanding of the nature of the student body at a school like NYU.

I know a number of NYU alumni -- they're a solid bunch for the most part, but they ain't all geniuses. Without grades, an employer is simply evaluating the candidate on the same criteria that NYU used to admit the student -- no way to measure his or her law school performance, which is critical.

This would be a big mistake for NYU, especially in its efforts to place students in locations other than NY, DC or CA.

Who the hell wrote this post?! How about some STATISTICS / FACTS before you start inanely insulting students that are just trying to compete on the same curve as their peers? Other schools in the top 10 do in fact have higher curves and give A+s, where NYU does not. So next time, how about some RESEARCH? Ridiculous

2 said it best.

i actually give props to this post. good job, elie.

-- an erstwhile elie detractor

Who the hell wrote this post?! How about some STATISTICS / FACTS before you start inanely insulting students that are just trying to compete on the same curve as their peers? Other schools in the top 10 do in fact have higher curves and give A+s, where NYU does not. So next time, how about some RESEARCH? Ridiculous

Who the hell wrote this post?! How about some STATISTICS / FACTS before you start inanely insulting students that are just trying to compete on the same curve as their peers? Other schools in the top 10 do in fact have higher curves and give A+s, where NYU does not. So next time, how about some RESEARCH? Ridiculous

"Some people have the talent and focus to get good grades, other people have the social skills to get laid..."

Elie, you left out a third category for dumb, ugly people. Odd that you'd forget it, since that category has your name written all over it.

Also, you're missing a comma in the second sentence of your first paragraph.

Damn -- NYU just GULCed itself into law school oblivion.

Senior JubJub

Dear 24,

Listen, Fauntleroy, lose the Anglophilia. I've known middle-of-the-road state school PhDs to go teach your kids at Oxford.

When it comes to eruidition, even the Irish have made you look like uneducated dolts for about the last 100 years. Take it down a notch.

Reading Elie's posts makes me miss Billy Merck.

Yeah, I said it.

How about a story on how the new grading policies hide underperformance by AA beneficiaries?

Reading Elie's posts makes me miss Billy Merck.

Yeah, I said it.

I'm somewhat angry that all these grade changes will be coming out after I'll be graduating. 85% or so of any given class gets a B or B+ now. My transcript is going to blow when its changed.

Yale - P/F
Harvard - P/F
Stanford - P/F
Columbia - changing to P/F
NYU - 3.17 median
Berkeley - P/F
Chicago - whatever
Penn - 3.3 median
Michigan - 3.3 median
Virginia - 3.3 median

LOL at your little puny tiny GPAs from NYU.

NYU has a lower grade curve than its peer schools. If employers and judges don't know about it, which results in sustematically lower-appearing grades for NYU grads. They're merely fixing the glitch and making an A or B from NYU the same as an A or B from Columbia.

Also, everyone knows smart people with bad grades and morons with good grades. Keep your anecdotes to yourself.

Anglophilia sounds like an STTTD.

I'm not excited about this system. But why is it that after writing about Harvard, Stanford, and Columbia doing this, you get to the NYU post and suddenly are willing to say that it's a disaster? You've been reading the comments section too much.

Law school simply costs too much to give out B-minuses. You can easily distinguish your work without relying on a zero-sum grade curve.

Besides, law school may be the last days of freedom you have until retirement. Try to enjoy it.

43

The reason for the switch is that schools like HSL, SLS, and CLS can get away with not having grades, but a TTT like New York Law School cannot.

Thank god i went to UVA. Soon to be top of the heap.

BM

45 - It was with deep regret that I must inform you that you have gone full retard.

I've always heard NYU had an A- curve whereas most other law schools (schools not giving out grades not included) have either a B or B+ curve. Is that true?

At my school (T10) we have a B+ and our transcripts SAY we have a B+ curve so theres no confusion when comparing against other schools. its not that complicated

This is all ridiculous. The ABA should regulate grading policies so that every school is on the same curve.

Does this mean that all of the NYU law kids with scoliosis are now the cool kids or are they still treated like second GULCers?

23 - What a public service announcement. All the third graders who read ATL send a big "fuck you."

This is actually a pretty novel idea. It forces law firms to drop their emphasis on an arbitrary system. If law school taught any of us anything, it is that grades are completely subjective. In law more than virtually any other discipline, professors grade by “feel.” When law firms use grade percentiles as part of their hiring decision, they end up precluding students as the result of a completely subjective system. This results in a number of students who have worked their butts off to get into very good law schools cut off from certain jobs and allows students who were unable to get into good schools, but did well in law school access to those same jobs.

The ranking system needs to be of greater benefit to job seekers. What’s the point of working your butt of to get into a very difficult school, when someone who went to a TTT can get that big firm job as long as they’re in the top 10%? If all the top schools go to pass/fail, it’ll keep people who did well at TTT from getting big firm jobs, and that’s better for everyone in the long run.

Law school is tough enough as it is with professors who don't care about teaching and only one exam at the end of the semester. Why not make law school as easy and unintimidating as possible? Everyone knows the legal profession is cut-throat, only masochists want that same pressure in the academy.

Besides, Elie, the only reason you got into HLS was Affirmative Action!

Law school is tough enough as it is with professors who don't care about teaching and only one exam at the end of the semester. Why not make law school as easy and unintimidating as possible? Everyone knows the legal profession is cut-throat, only masochists want that same pressure in the academy.

Besides, Elie, the only reason you got into HLS was Affirmative Action!

Law school is tough enough as it is with professors who don't care about teaching and only one exam at the end of the semester. Why not make law school as easy and unintimidating as possible? Everyone knows the legal profession is cut-throat, only masochists want that same pressure in the academy.

Besides, Elie, the only reason you got into HLS was Affirmative Action!

Law school is tough enough as it is with professors who don't care about teaching and only one exam at the end of the semester. Why not make law school as easy and unintimidating as possible? Everyone knows the legal profession is cut-throat, only masochists want that same pressure in the academy.

Besides, Elie, the only reason you got into HLS was Affirmative Action!

52 is in favor of communism and, therefore, will be voting for Obama to spread the wealth. People that claim grades are subjective just didn't work as hard. One or two grades in law school may be subjective but over the course of 3 years, your GPA is not subjective.

Everyone is not special.

Does anyone know the only reason that Elie got into HLS?

I applaud all of the schools which choose to move to a P/F or modified P/F system. As a friend and longtime Tier 1 professor told me, "The truth of the matter is that 95 out of 100 student's answers on my exams meet the grade and get the job done, while one or two will be absolutely horrendous and illustrate that a student blew off my class. The remaining one or two may be fantastic, but aren't that fantastic as to penalize the rest. My grades reflect this lack of differentiation."

I often thought of his comments in reviewing associates work and realize that it's quite true. they get the job done and cover what I need covered. I have yet to meet a new associate, whether they are from HLS, NYU, Tulane, or American, who comes out of law school and understand the real practice of law and the nuanced arguments required. I've also noticed that school and class rank have little to do with performance. I'll take an associate from any law school who can read subtleties over good grades any day.

I also think that many of you regard the grading system as a badge of honor as though we survived a socratic hell that all must endure. Just because we survived doesn't mean the system should.

Grading systems should not be designed for job opportunities, but for quality education. Grades are simply one of the best motivators out there. Without them, students simply will not work as hard.

Anyway, it's not as if eliminating grades will simply make the employers create extra jobs. It's a zero-sum game.

I applaud all of the schools which choose to move to a P/F or modified P/F system. As a friend and longtime Tier 1 professor told me, "The truth of the matter is that 95 out of 100 student's answers on my exams meet the grade and get the job done, while one or two will be absolutely horrendous and illustrate that a student blew off my class. The remaining one or two may be fantastic, but aren't that fantastic as to penalize the rest. My grades reflect this lack of differentiation."

I often thought of his comments in reviewing associates work and realize that it's quite true. they get the job done and cover what I need covered. I have yet to meet a new associate, whether they are from HLS, NYU, Tulane, or American, who comes out of law school and understand the real practice of law and the nuanced arguments required. I've also noticed that school and class rank have little to do with performance. I'll take an associate from any law school who can read subtleties over good grades any day.

I also think that many of you regard the grading system as a badge of honor as though we survived a socratic hell that all must endure. Just because we survived doesn't mean the system should.

57 - you proved your own point.

52 -

Very elitist post. But are you right? That's the real quandary...

I applaud all of the schools which choose to move to a P/F or modified P/F system. As a friend and longtime Tier 1 professor told me, "The truth of the matter is that 95 out of 100 student's answers on my exams meet the grade and get the job done, while one or two will be absolutely horrendous and illustrate that a student blew off my class. The remaining one or two may be fantastic, but aren't that fantastic as to penalize the rest. My grades reflect this lack of differentiation."

I often thought of his comments in reviewing associates work and realize that it's quite true. they get the job done and cover what I need covered. I have yet to meet a new associate, whether they are from HLS, NYU, Tulane, or American, who comes out of law school and understand the real practice of law and the nuanced arguments required. I've also noticed that school and class rank have little to do with performance. I'll take an associate from any law school who can read subtleties over good grades any day.

I also think that many of you regard the grading system as a badge of honor as though we survived a socratic hell that all must endure. Just because we survived doesn't mean the system should.

53-56 = The Law Offices of David Duke

Wow. I really hope 52 is joking.

I'm surprised that no one has yet pointed out the obvious flaw with this article. 3-1 is a fastball count, and the gutsier move is to throw a curveball in this situation. Could we please bring back Marc Edelman as a consultant?

RIGHT ON, 18!!
This country is being turned into a cesspool of wusses..

anyone for having these all important ranking systems based on more than 1 test

better for students becuase more accurately portrays abilities

better for employers becuase more accurately can pick tlaent

better for clients becuase more accurately get better lawyers

worse for teachers who get paid 6 figures bacause they have to grade more than one test.

would seem like a no brainer..but you would be wrong i guess. after all any call for a change is deemed whining by people such as those who worte this post-it doesn't matter if your actually on the side of employers and ranking...if you advocate any form of change your a baby.

69 - you're - learn it, know it, live it.

18 and 21 for Congress 2010!

70-

what?

sincerely
69

67 beat me to it, but I don't think any of us are really surprised that Elie screwed up the baseball analogy. A 3-1 count means there are three balls and one strike, and if the pitcher doesn't throw a strike the batter gets a free pass to first. Most pitchers will throw a fastball in that situation, because that is the pitch that is easiest to control. If a hitter knows that a fastball is coming and is ready for it, that is a huge advantage to the hitter, because as the ball begins its flight they don't have to be concerned about a change in directions (i.e. a curveball).

In short, Elie took the baseball analogy and completely screwed it up! I don't think anyone doubts he is a Red Sox fan (Boston ties, apparent lack of understanding of the basics, annoying, etc...) , which is another strike against him.

The grading system used the US is totally screwed up and now it’s getting even worse. Take a C average student from an English law school and he will more than likely get an A aggregate at most law schools in the US. This is not because the legal education over there is better- in fact it’s far worse - it’s because most academic institutions in the US hand out distinctions as if they were noddy badges.

69-

"it doesn't matter if your actually on the side of employers and ranking...if you advocate any form of change your a baby"

two consecutive misuses, in the same sentence, of "your" (should be "you're" which is a contraction of the words "you" and "are")

HTH,
70

70-

got it.

69

Passing grade = Your dad's check didn't bounce.

Passing grade = Your dad's check didn't bounce.

1) This actually makes a lot of sense. The current NYU median for 1L year is around 3.17, whereas its crosstown rival's is 3.33. N and C are essentially equivalent; there's no reason for that kind of disparity in median gpa's. It can only hurt NYU kids.
2) Revesz isn't proposing that NYU do away with grades, merely that it raise its median so that NYU kids can compete on a level playing field with other schools. This is nothing compared to the system Harvard is instituting.

67/70 -- Elie no doubt screwed up the baseball analogy, but he did so not by choosing the wrong answer in a clear scenario (as your posts would suggest), but by choosing an ambiguous scenario in the first place. In some situations, a pitcher would be considered "courageous" for going right after a hitter with his best fastball in a 3-1 count, rather than hoping the hitter will chase a breaking ball out of the zone but conceding the walk if he does not. In other situations, you guys are right on with your assessment -- a curveball INTENDED TO HIT THE STRIKE ZONE would be the gutsier pitch. The actual key here is whether the pitcher intends to throw a strike -- regardless of pitch -- or whether he intends to throw one out of the zone and hope the batter will chase. The former course is the "gutsier" move; however, the metric is pitch PLACEMENT, not pitch SELECTION, and Mystal screwed the pooch on that score.

Btw, Elie, do you care to weigh in on this?

"Vice President Cheney has probably been the most dangerous Vice President we've had in American history. He has the idea...he doesn't realize that Article I of the Constitution defines the role of the Vice President of the United States. That's the executive. He works in the executive branch. He should understand that. Everyone should understand that. "

"Vice President Cheney has probably been the most dangerous Vice President we've had in American history. He has the idea...he doesn't realize that Article I of the Constitution defines the role of the Vice President of the United States. That's the executive. He works in the executive branch. He should understand that. Everyone should understand that. "

NYU = TTT

I didn't know NYU had such a low curve. If I had I would have definitely gone elsewhere. I understand the impact this has on employers. 3.33 from michigan is probably seen as better than 3.17 from nyu.

52 = someone at a top school with TTT grades.

48, NYU curves to a B. Our grade policy can be found here: http://www.law.nyu.edu/students/studentaffairs/publicationsandresources/studenthandbook/gradesacademicstandardsjdllm/index.htm

for those who feel like procrastinating. So it actually is lower than some other top 10 schools. I had hoped employers knew the difference just from doing this for years, but maybe not? Who knows.

52 = pathetic 18 year old troll trying to start an argument.

79 - You're wrong. The medians at C and N are the same, though the distributions may be different.

This is absolutely outrageous. Major League II is a fantastic movie. Using it as a comparison here is incredibly offensive.

As Hiroshi "Kamikaze" Tanaka would say: "May you be mounted by a rabid dog. You're lower than rat excrement."

NYU (and Columbia and whoever thinks they should change their system) need to live with the fact that they aren't HYS.

Personally I think that these grading system changes are stupid. However, they aren't going to hurt people from HYS because the name there is good enough. But if you didn't go to HYS you still need grades to get pretty much any job. If NYU kills grades watch to see what other schools move up in placement because they do have grades.

88 - I'm not wrong. Not only is C's median higher, there are far more people above, say, a 3.5, than there are at N.

funny how people at NYU always make such a big deal about how they are "just as good as" CLS, but you never see CLS kids pointing out how they are "just as good as" NYU.

I wonder why...

91: NYU isn't killing grades--they're just adjusting their curve

This is absolutely outrageous. Major League II is a fantastic movie. Using it as a comparison here is incredibly offensive.

As Hiroshi "Kamikaze" Tanaka would say: "May you be mounted by a rabid dog. You're lower than rat excrement."

89: Agree somewhat. Compared to the execrable Major League: Back to the Minors, Major League II is well worth a weekend rental. However, compared to the original Major League, Major League II is subpar. I would submit the following analogies:

Major League = Lat
Major League II = Kash
Major League: Back to the Minors = Bernold
The retarded character in Gigli, whose lines include "[t]hey make my pe**is sneeze" = Elie

Btw, Mystal, this character assassination will continue until you recognize that pitch placement, and not pitch selection, is the proper metric for a 3-1 count baseball analogy.

Yeah, I was noticing how my friends who went to NYU law school were at such a disadvantage with that vicious curve.

What a load of shit.

Maybe the new grading systems at T-5 schools will more accurately reflect how hard it is to get into these schools in the first place.

Maybe the move to pass/fail indicates that, at T-5 schools where there is a narrow range of intellectual capabilities, the idea of a curve itself is flawed. Rather, a pass/fail system allows students to be measured by standards set by a professor for proficiency in a class and if everyone can meet the standards, so be it.

Also, if Friday's post (http://abovethelaw.com/2008/10/law_school_and_gpa_not_indicat.php) is true and grades don't exactly correlate with really world success, then these law schools are doing employers a favor by requiring the employers to make hiring decisions based on candidate personality and interviewing skills rather than gpa.

67/73/80 -- Okay. First of all, the gutsiest pitch to throw 3-1 is a change-up. Period.

But only 2 pitchers in my lifetime have consistently had the stones to throw it (Maddux & Pedro). NYU =/= Maddux or Pedro.

Now, the bottom line is that a 3-1 curveball "for a strike" is an amazingly bad pitch, regardless of the situation. The batter in that situation is looking for location, if that pitch ends up where the batter is looking, the pitch is not going to make it to the catcher's mitt. There are very, very few pitchers that can throw a 3-1 curve with enough "filth" on it and have it be a strike. Doc could do it, Zito used to be able to, it's a pretty short list.

The vast majority of 3-1 curveballs are "give up" pitches. The pitchers throws it, hoping the batter either makes a dumb mistake and goes fishing, or they walk and the pitcher moves onto the next one. Now, that is not always a bad decision (depending on the situation) but it is not a "gutsy" decision.

A "gut check" is 3-1, you know what is coming, you can't hit it anyway because my fastball is that good.

Now let's go back to the analogy. Is NYU trying to throw a nasty curveball here for a strike? Or are they bouncing one up in there, hoping the batter makes a mistake? I say the latter, and I say the latter lacks guts.

"Forget the curveball Ricky. Give 'em the heater."

-- Elie

96: Everything is relative.

T5 = high-LSAT pussies.

Elie at 98 FTW!

12:03- Michigan's median is 3.19

Grade reform at the T5 schools only hurts the students who are in the top end of their class. The reform just makes them look less distinguished. The motivation to reform grades at the school is to make a greater amount of their student body competitive for certain jobs and clerkships. This is an attempt to flatten the bell curve for grades - a form of academic socialism.

At least NYU's proposed changes aren't as radical as ours... but then again, at least ours aren't as radical as Stanford's.. Or are they? In any event, none of the "reformed" systems are as ridiculous as Yale's.

HLS student

Fuck you, Elie.

As a public law school, NYU is accountable to the taxpayers of the state of New York. why not let it go to a vote?

106 - you have also gone full retard. NYU is not a public school.

Thanks, Elie! I agree with you about the change-up (although I would add Trevor Hoffman, in his prime, to your 3-1 changeup list [n.b. I would never compare Hoffman to Pedro or Maddux on pure merits, given the overrating of closers relative to starting pitchers, but I was just thinking of a dominant modern pitcher whose "go-to" pitch was the change]). However, I'd still contend that placement is the primary metric we should be worried about here, and pitch selection a secondary, albeit material, metric.

-80 (and 95, as you should already know through the magic of IP addresses -- although I'm sure you can differentiate good-natured ribbing from actual malice by this point)

106 - you have also gone full retard. NYU is not a public school.

Elie, you're a shmuck.

All the Dean is saying: the curve at NYU is a little out of line with other schools, and makes it harder for students to get jobs with cut-offs. There's no reason why 5% less of NYU students get B's than CLS or Chicago students.

Adding an A+ would just bump up the number of students who get B's. It's no different than just making the curve a little looser. It's also not as wussy as a pass, high pass, and low pass system, where there is basically no way to discern any difference between students.

Nice try to rake some muck here Elie but you'll haev to try again.

Grades at law school are only important in two instances -- the exams 1st and 2nd semesters of 1L year. Grading on those exams is concededly arbitrary and bears zero relation to the practice of law. We all know this, and it's why those that did well get defensive about grades in the first place. In classes where you had to write a paper or in clinic classes where you actually did work, your talent directly influences the grade. In a huge class with a curved final that covers 3 of the 21 subject areas you covered that semester, the only thing "talent" gets you is a grade higher than a C -- everything else depends on how the professor felt about the deuce s/he was dropping when s/he read your exam.

As for Elie, write your main posts with the same style you use in your replies to the comments and maybe you won't catch so much shit.

The median 1L grade at Columbia is ~3.2. The median 1L grade at NYU is ~3.17 (how they get this accurate, I do not know).

Now the median will be a P.

How is this helpful? All top business schools are some form of "modified P/F" and it makes no difference. At least getting straight A's looks good compared to straight what...???

108 -- Yes. Hoffman. Absolutely. He always would throw that, though, I think he stopped when Mike Piazza tagged him post- 9/11. That ball still hasn't landed.

No way I'm Gigli though. Maybe the terrible Billy Bob version of Bad News Bears. Maybe, maybe, The Rookie with D. Quaid. But Gigli is just insulting.

Everyone criticizing this as a movement towards pass / fail: YOU FAIL. At reading comprehension.

He's proposing matching the curve to NYU's peer schools. NOT ditching grading in favor of the timid and useless SLS, HLS and YLS "grading" systems.

Who cares? NYU is still NYU; HLS is still HLS, etc., etc., etc.

Elie and 108 - being a Padre fan I totally agree on Hoffman, but you are forgetting the best change-up artist of our time -- Johan Santana.

Glad that we could make this thread into something interesting...

- 67

saying NYU "curves to a B" is misleading. the average grade for a 1L is somewhere between B and B+, but is somewhat closer to B+. the median grade in 1L classes can be either B or B+ (in fact it's usually right around the split between those 2), but it is slightly more commonly B+.

the split between B-and-below grades and B+-and-above grades in 1L classes is usually about 50-50. about 80% of the grades in the lower half of the class are B (thus, only about 8% of the class in total gets a B- or worse, and almost no one gets worse than B-). on the other hand, in the upper half of the class, approximately 40% get above a A or A- (thus representing about 20% of the class as a whole).

a very typical 1L distribution is:

B-: 8%
B: 42%
B+: 30%
A-: 14%
A: 6%

if my math is right, the average gpa in this class is roughly 3.23, which means that the B+ grade is far closer to the mean.

as for the median in 1L classes, looking at the distributions from last spring and fall indicates that the median in some 1L classes was B+ (b/c more than 1/2 of the class got B+ or better), while the median in other classes was B. From quickly glancing at it, it seems like the B+ median is slightly more common in 1L classes than the B median, but it's not that skewed one way or the other.

"Vice President Cheney has probably been the most dangerous Vice President we've had in American history. He has the idea...he doesn't realize that Article I of the Constitution defines the role of the Vice President of the United States. That's the executive. He works in the executive branch. He should understand that. Everyone should understand that. "

oh geeze, nervous T-10 1L and/or an lolcat is going to get a job before me. I better increase the girth of my mail merge.

-really nervous T-14 1L

Can someone who understands this better than I explain why NYU is reticent to simply report a class rank? It seems like that would be a far, far easier solution to this 'problem' (if one in fact exists).

It doesn't matter how the law school gives grades, because employers are still going to make fine distinctions and figure out who is at the top, middle, and bottom of the class.

No really.... it doesn't matter.

74 - please drown yourself in the nearest dirty toilet.

first

I'm impressed. Elie knows baseball. Elie, favorite team and favorite current player....go.....

124,

I like the Montreal Expos and my favorite current player is Andre Dawson!

-Elie "I'm fat" Mystal

Former clerk here. I always looked for top 10%. Even for schools that didn't rank, it was obvious that a candidate (or one of their recommenders) would drop a hint that the candidate was top 5%-10%.

For P/F or others who "didn't rank," I looked for high honors UG with a hard science, or exec board on law review. Otherwise, it was tough luck.

Maybe some will just proxy prestige of UG. But really, getting a women's studies major at Dartmouth is far more worthless than graduating summa with a physics degree from a directional state school. It's obvious which one worked harder.

GULC has changed to a modified F+, F, F- system so as to accurately reflect the quality of its student body.

125, you're not funny. at all. better luck on your next post.

The appropriate response to comment #117 is that you're just wrong. Walk up to the 4th floor of Furman Hall and ask them for the grade distributions. Your stats are just wrong.

A very typical 1L distribution at NYU looks more like:

C+: 5%
B-: 35%
B: 30%
B+: 15%
A-: 10%
A: 5%

If NYU wants to stay within the top 5 in recruiting, it has to follow the lead of its peer schools in moving to a Pass/Fail system. Otherwise, NYU will not be able to compete with Harvard, Yale, Stanford or Columbia for the best students. Its financial aid already pales in comparison to HYS unless you are one of the lucky few to win a public interest fellowship.

Quite honestly, when faced with the decision of choosing between HYS (i.e. great schools with great financial aid and no grades) versus a great school with $100K+ of student loans and grades, those students with the top grades, LSAT scores and best resumes are going to make the logical choice. If NYU wants to stay in the top 5 or move to top 3, it has to make the change. Otherwise, even schools like UC Berkeley will surpass it.

NYU=TTT

-nervous T-10 1L

I agree with 74. The US system sucks. We need to adopt a percentile system like all other common law countries do. How can we support a system that awards average studends with a B?

I agree with 74. The US system sucks. We need to adopt a percentile system like all other common law countries do.

I agree with 74. The US system sucks. We need to adopt a percentile system like all other common law countries do.

129, While I appreciate the gumption you show in trying to explain away your transcript full of B-'s, I don't think anyone is seriously going to buy NYU's curve being set a 3.02.

A B- in the US is like a D- anywhere else in the world.

134 - Seriously. Is this kid really outright lying about his curve on ATL?

Prospective employers (to the extent that they read this board) can see right through these pathetic attempts by to artificially lower grade expectations.

"And NYU is caving. They're throwing a curveball in a 3-1 count instead of having the guts to throw a hard strike."

Elie, you eeeeeediot. If you don't understand baseball, don't use it to make analogies. Throwing a curveball in a 3-1 count is almost universally regarded as REFUSING to give in -- the pitcher refuses to give the batter a good pitch to hit even though the curve is harder to get in for a strike. The risk of a walk increases, but that's not giving in. Fool.

Elie is to baseball analogies as _____ is to proofreading.

(hint: the correct answer is Elie)

ha... so many of you are missing the point. it's not about the student body's alleged sense of "entitlement" to good grades. And it's not about whining.

It seems to more about not holding on to a system that many peer schools have abandoned just of the sake of it. A school could hold out on moving towards the pass/fail system. And be proud of that! but to what end? when judges/clerks review grades and see a bunch of Bs and B+ we say, ok, average. When we see a bunch of Ps and Hs, we say, ok, what else? it's more plain vanilla. It's more like, does this P / H type student have other strong qualities?

Soon the trend might shift elsewhere. Ridiculous book awards, or other kinds of accolades to make students seem more attractive or smart. I doubt there is ANY more or less competition b/t the students, regardless of the grading system. It's about packaging and marketing. This is professional school. And there's no real sense of being a hold out school on grade "reform." the audience of the grades is largely NOT the critics on this board.

24- go back to India.

129 - the grade distributions are available online, and you're wrong.

129

NYU does not give grades of C+. C and D are discretionary, and usually professors don't given them (though 1 or 2 Cs in a class is not all that uncommon).

If you really think 70% of ANY (let alone every) 1L class gets B or worse, you are kidding yourself. All you have to do is go online. According to the school's mandatory distribution (which is publicly available in the student handbook), the MINIMUM number of allowable grades above B (i.e., B+, A- and A) in a 1L class is 38%. The maximum is 57%. Most, but not all professors curve to the upward end of the grade ranges.

Get your facts straight; this information is publicly available, and in any case employers aren't idiots.

MysTTTal - Harvard jettisons grades entirely and that's cool. NYU discusses adjusting the curve and suddenly it's the greatest threat to meritocracy since the policy that got you in to Harvard. If you read the memo you would see that the Dean and faculty raised the issue sua sponte - no whining students. In fact, no one even went to the meeting today, because no one here gives a shit. In sum, eat a bag of dicks.

It's simple: Students who get good grades defend them because it allows them to maintain a competitive advantage over students whose performance might be stronger in areas that can't be quantified.

This works well for vocational schools that feed students into TT firms. Where those same students will deride each other endlessly in the hopes of validating their otherwise totally useless lives and making themselves stand out to some partner, the ass of whom they have been trained to kiss well before law school. This attitude as witnessed in these comments every day.

This does little for the integrity of the academic institutions, the practice of law, and according to some studies apparently, does not do much to predict the success rate of students. And now, ironically, a school is going to overturn its grading policy for the purpose of giving its students more competitive advantage. Way to go, NYU.

There is some real concern here. I was ranked number 1 in my class after my first year at a 3rd tier law school and was having clerkship opportunities spoon fed to me. I decided to transfer to a T25 law school where I have ranked more "middle of the pack" and clerkships have basically disappeared as an option.

145

Your situation merely reflects the LACK of sophistication in many clerkship and Biglaw vetting procedures. The idea that the top 10% of any given1L class, within a certain tier, represents the best and the brightest of that tier, is insane. 144 was right on the money, but I'd like to add that regardless of what institution you're attending, 99% of your professors are probably BIglaw refugees, and have a strong vested interest in maintaining the system that got them their clerkship, first job, and subsequent university post.

129,
NYU is not competitive in the top 5 now...