i'm nervous about my cravath callback

-nervous t-10 1L

I just hope SkaddenDC is able to make payroll. This is bad.

NO FAT CHICKS

nervous, I want to call you right back to hell with the business end of a freight train.

This year's bonus in biglaw: you're not fired. Let's hope most of us can get it.

The leader of my firm told the partners "we are not in the business of giving gratuities" when discussing associated bonuses and the standard lock-step raise. I am afraid I may have been in the business of giving gratuities for every hour of time I billed last year over the standard expectation. This year when they joke, "don't spend it all in one place" when distributing bonuses, may actually be a challenge.

i'm nervous about my property outline

-nervous t-10 1L

6 = SkaddenDC associate

If bonuses meet the 2001 level I would be shocked.

Top firms will distinguish themselves by not engaging in layoffs (or out-of-the-ordinary "performance-based terminations" a la Dechert) -- that, in and of itself, should separate these firms from the next tier. I wouldn't count on anyone receiving a "special bonus." I suspect some firms will forgo paying any bonus this year -- the 4th quarter is really going to be rough, and a number of players will be thinking about conserving cash to get through what may be a disastrous 2009.

nervous, just think of it this way. I want to adversely posses a parcel, bury you and your outline in it, and then abandon.

#7 -- billing over the "standard expectation" is hardly a "gratuity" even if you get a small (or zero) bonus. You are a professional. Act that way. And if you want to keep your job, one of the best ways is to show that you are in demand -- i.e., by billing a lot of hours.

Aw, the poor babies, they won't be getting quite as much extra cash this year. What a pity.

At least some of them will be able to draw unemployment.

There is no speculation at Paul Hastings who will wait until FEBRUARY to announce and then pay bonuses in MARCH based on your annual 2008 hours under the false pretense that the fiscal year ends in February. This of course is utter nonsense (otherwise they would measure the billable year by the same period).

The reality is that the firm uses your bonus to limit the draw on the firms line of credit at the beginning of the year.

For incoming classes it means that you will work for 15 months before you see a bonus check while the firm gets to use money you already earned as an interest-free loan for a few months.

To remove any doubt the policy will remain the same:

"We will pay the absolute minimum to the fewest number of people possible to make our ranges look like market. While we are happy to discuss ranges of bonuses and aggregate participation figures we refuse to speak to the actual number of associates who receive market bonuses."

Q4 will be a boom for some top firms, but they will have huge receivables and not necessarily huge receipts.

Bonuses will follow historical numbers with toppers paid to high billers.

- The Great Billdini

#7--I am surprised you don't ask for time and a half for anything over 40 hours per week. Read #13, he hits the nail on the head.

I guarantee the vast majority of V100 firms will pay full bonuses to those associates with 2000 hours. Any firm that does not will loose those associates to the firms that are paying full bonuses.

15 - you don't earn a bonus you entitled d-bag.

i'm nervous about my prospects in the future

-nervous t-10 1L

11 - top firms are (and have been) incredibly busy. There's no reason to think they couldn't afford at least the "regular" bonuses. While I doubt the "special" bonuses of last year will happen, it will likely be because of concern regarding client perception rather than any true monetary hardship. If they don't pay at least the "regular" bonus, total compensation will go *down* for many associates year over year, despite the increase in seniority, which is an excellent way to kill morale.

Bonuses will be $0, dummies. That's the whole point of a profits-based compensation system. They go up when times are good, down when times are bad.

6 is right, be glad you still have a job.

19 -- I've heard that Cravath will replace monetary bonuses with PEANUTS and CHEESE this year? Thoughts?

Weil to 190!

Are there any "old-timers" around who can tell us what bonus season was like in the past downturn with the collapse of the tech companies?

Latham has done some belt tightening, it will be interesting to see if there will be bonuses

Cravath is canceling all complimentary ass wiping services provided to associates by CWT and Skattten. The asses at Cravath will have to wipe themselves.

This is the funniest thread EV-AH! Haven't LOL'd this hard in years. Good job, Elie! 5 stars!!! The part where you oh-so earnestly suggest that bonuses will even exist this year? CLASSIC!!

Fat Boy Ellie has bonus fabric in his fat-man jeans.

*laughs at associates freaking out over bonuses as I stroll into the office at 9:30 and leave at 5:30*

- Government Lawyer

Most firms probably budgeted their bonus pool last year, meaning the money is available without further impacting the bottom line. It will be tempting, at some firms, to move previously allocated money from a bonus pool back to the partners.

But it will be very tough for any firm paying "special bonuses" again in this market to justify that action to their clients. Keep in mind that there will be huge pushbacks from clients for any rate increases for 2009.

25 - DPW announced no bonuses would be paid and then got shamed by its peers and lower level firms (DPW eventually came out and announced that while doing some housecleaning, they found some money to pay bonuses to associates). weil was supposed to be a leader due to enron and global crossing (or was it worldcom), but instead, fell in line with the elite firm's bonus structure.

GDC or C&B DC?

21 -- A decline in total compensation does happen -- it happened earlier this decade, and it will happen again (if not this year, then likely next year). I was around when this happened before -- and, trust me, morale about pay was not an issue. When your law school classmates are being laid off (and your college classmates who went into banking, etc), you'll feel darn good about yourself and your prospects if you still have a job and a future career, regardless of your bonus. Many of the folks who were thrown through the grindstone post dot-com boom have never really gotten their carreers back on track.

22 - the "whole point" of associates in big-law is that it is *not* a profits-based compensation system. That's what our friend who made seven figure bonuses in the corporate world had and why their compensation is headed for the floor. Top law firms have, for quite some time, been exactly the opposite of wall street firms: lockstep salary and bonuses, based on matching market rates rather than any individual firm's performance.

#18---who are they going to loose(sic) them too? I had not idea that the job market was so strong. Please tell me what you are smoking, I would love to try it, deluding myself might be fun.

* laughs at Government Lawyer laughing at me, as I earn three times what he does and still stroll into the office at 10:30 and leave at 6:30*

- Biglaw Associate

I'd love a bonus. I'd love a blowjob from Eliza Dushku. Maybe it will happen, maybe not. For now, I'd like to keep my job, but won't call anyone greedy for speculating. We all like to dream about more money and blowjobs.

33 - Venable, but only if you are man enough.

i'm nervous about wiping wiping my ass

-nervous t-10 1L

21 -- A decline in total compensation does happen -- it happened earlier this decade, and it will happen again (if not this year, then likely next year). I was around when this happened before -- and, trust me, morale about pay was not an issue. When your law school classmates are being laid off (and your college classmates who went into banking, etc), you'll feel darn good about yourself and your prospects if you still have a job and a future career, regardless of your bonus. Many of the folks who were thrown through the grindstone post dot-com boom have never really gotten their carreers back on track.

37 - more money...possible. blowjob from miss Duskhku? Never.

So this is the year that all other firms will match Jones Day's "market bonus." Doughnuts

***in 20 years, laughs as I see government lawyer, his nasty wife, and three under-fed, public school educated children taking pictures with my yacht at Belmont Harbor in the background***

-Kirkland Associate

Elie wants a blow job from a giant hostess cake.

If I recall correctly, bonuses in '01 ranged from 10-30. It was a dramatic reduction from the prior year bonuses which exceeded 100K for senior associates. Does this story sound familiar (for the non-math majors, bonuses for senior associates topped 6 figures last year)?

The content of this blog has really been disappointing since Lat's departure. I don't really feel like it is giving me the scoop. This is not anything I didn't already know. I am looking for a new legal blog to read. Any suggestions?

It is quite exciting to see that all other firms will be matching Jones Day's "market matching bonus" this year. Starbucks and Kriaspy Creams.

It is quite exciting to see that all other firms will be matching Jones Day's "market matching bonus" this year. Starbucks and Kriaspy Creams.

Orrick will pay the announced bonuses.
Paying will keep the stars happy and it won't cost too much firm-wide, since a bunch of groups are so slow that only stars are getting 2000 hours anyway. It'll be $50k+ for some, $0 for others.

No one is even sweating it, since the associates who are slow have known they're going to miss the target since June and have consequently been chilling. The stars have been busy all year and always knew they'd make it to 2000 (or, more realistically, 2400+).

(Someone correct my memory if faulty.)

Back in '00, first-years in NYC were getting $40K, with $5K increments per year, and they announced early--early November.

Then, of course, the bottom fell out.

Taking Cravath as a good example, they gave $20K in '01, with $5K increments per year, but didn't announce until late November.

In '02, they gave $15K to first- and second-years, $20K to third- and fourth-years, and $25K to fifth- and sixth-years. Again, later. Most didn't announce until early December. (A few were up closer to $20K, but I don't think any maxed out beyond $30K.)

In '03, lots of firms waited until late December, again going in the $15K-$17.5K range, mostly maxing out at $30K-$40K.

i'm nervous about billing 2400+

-nervous t-10 1L

At the bigger firms the bonuses will probably be the same as last year without the "special bonus." However, they will be very strict on who gets it. I.e. people that hit 2,000 will probably get the full bonus but that would mean that in some groups only 3-4 associates will get the actual bonus. There will also be performance based layoffs after the year-end reviews. Smaller firms might forrgo bonuses altogether. Six months ago a lot of people were concerned about hitting their hours for a bonus now a lot of people are concerned on not being the ones to be laid off. Sucks but such are the times.

36 -- Whatever he is smoking, it apparently causes hallucinations of managing partners crying over associates leaving. When he comes down off his high he'll realize that the economic turn of the past 6-12 months has left just about every V100 with more associates than they need.

41 - If Turtle can get a HJ from Jaime Lynn, Dushku is NOT out of play.

For the past seven years or so, I've done about 2100-2300 each year at a couple of the Chicago firms, which base their bonuses (in the case of the firms I've worked for) heavily on hours worked. I get excellent reviews, so my 2300 this year should be worth around $75k if past years are any indication. I'd get a hell of a lot more at Kirkland, but then I would have to work at Kirkland. Even though people I went to law school with are now income partners there, I see how different their lives are than mine, and I'm happy with the choice I made. I probably would have just lost that extra $150k I would have made over the better part of the last decade in the stock market anyway.

Everybody's looking at this as though the market is what drives bonuses, but it's not. The ONLY reason for bonuses is recruitment/retention. That's why bonuses are good when lateral opportunities are good, and lousy when then aren't, and that's why the top shops all end up matching. This year? Lateral opportunities are not as good, and law students are nervous as it is, so neither factor is going to push bonuses up. The only factors top firms really have to consider is (1) whether they want to take the opportunity to lead compensation and perhaps have the top 5-10 firms break away from the rest; or (2) how they can avoid the black eye DPW earned during the last round of bubble-bursting. Regardless of which factor a firm is really interested in, they will wait as long as possible before announcing (1 - lets them make a bigger splash/be more of a hero to associates and recruits; 2 - makes it more likely somebody else will announce low first, which lets them avoid the blame)

i'm nervous

-nervous t-10 1L

Law firm managing partner Mike Singletary on bonuses:
Our formula is this- we go out, we hit associates in the mouth. Number one.
Number two, we are not a charity. We cannot GIVE money away. That's number two.
And number three is we execute, from the very start of the year to the very end of the year. That did not happen this year. I do not apologize...you do not want me to go much further.
*********
With regard to commenter 7, I will not tolerate associates that think it's about them when it's about the firm. We cannot make decisions that cost the firm, and then come on ATL and act nonchalant. No. You know what? This is how I believe. I'm from the old school. I believe this: I would rather work with ten associates, and pick up the slack, rather than play with 11 when I know that that associate is not sold out to be a part of this firm. It is more about them than it is about the firm. Cannot conference call with 'em. Cannot draft with 'em. Cannot work with 'em. Cannot do it. I want winners. I want people that wanna win.

30 - Given the current budget crisis affecting both the state and federal governments, you will be lucky to have a job next year. SUCK IT

Winner winner SkaddenDC can't afford dinner.

58 - WOW!

My take is, the bonuses this year will be exactly the same as last year in NY for firms that match and pay the standard, non-hours-based bonuses. No special bonuses. Many firms will probably enforce a good standing or hours minimum to get bonuses, and that may leave a lot of people without much or any bonuses. Firms that pay based on hours will probably keep the same systems they had last year; with lower hours across the board, those programs will be a lit cheaper.

Kirkland probably does the same thing as last year, or maybe slightly less, and leads all players except for Wachtell.

I don't need a bonus...just a job offer!
Visit www.3LforHire.blogspot.com

.....crickets........CRickets.......criCKETS.....

Will the real "nervous t-10 1L" please stand up?

43 - Which number wife (ex-secretary) will be on your yacht with you? Oh yeah, and your kids will hate you, but they will like the boat.

WHO is more annoying? SkaddenDC troll or Nervous T-10 1L????????????????????????

56,

You are absolutely right. bonuses are not driven by the market but retention and keep associates from moving to banks, hedge funds, etc. With those jobs disappearing and not likely to come back in the near term bonuses will be lower.

anyone thinks they are going to be the same as last year except special bonus levels is clueless. also, as for firms budgetting for this year's bonus payout, budgets can easily be cut. Like everyone else, firms are going t hoard cash at this time to whether what looks like a pretty severe recession. (while I don't subscribe to his theory but Roubamni (sp?) has predicted corporate bond defaults at levels above the great depression).

*laughs at all the associates getting defensive about their boring jobs as I do the work of a 5th year associate*

- 1st year Government Lawyer

58 is my hero. I hate the 49ers and would want to work for that guy

just shit my pants.

-nervous t-10 1L

69 - if you are a first year government lawyer, how do you know what work a fifth year attorney in private practice does?

Anyone think Thelen is giving out bonuses this year? Thoughts?

72: Because they're sitting across the table from me, so to speak. Also, I endured a summer at a BIGLAW firm.

-GL

55- What firms have you worked at? What firms would you say have a better lifestyle in Chicago?

*laughs at the first year BigLaw associates as I consider which firms will give me equal credit for my time in the AG's office"

--2nd year government lawyer (soon to be 3rd year associate)

i'm nervous about skadden dc

nervous t-10 1L

Thanks for the laugh #18, you spoiled know-nothing....

These amazing bonuses are a recent phenomenon, created by firms in the boom years in part to somewhat compete with the Wall St type bonuses.
Clearly that isn't an issue any longer.

You are a measly little associate, a worker bee, and by your comment, I will guess a fairly junior one. Even if you are an "A" level associate (top firm and school) who thinks his **** don't stink, you are still just one of many - a dime a dozen, if you will, in the NY market.
Go ahead, jump ship if you want to - I imagine that your firm will carry on just fine without you.

68 -

56 here. I actually think bonuses--at the top shops at least--will be exactly the same as last year, minus the special bonus. They can easily afford it, can tell clients that they cut bonuses and still keep associates (and prospective associates) relatively happy all while (perhaps) distinguishing themselves from the pack.t

I'm going to go out on a limb and speculate that there won't be any "special bonus" this year.

Christians=TTT

The idea that we will just be happy that we aren't laid off is bullshit. If bonuses are not -at least- what they were in 2006 (i.e., 2007 without the special bonus), then there will be a lot of furious associates around here.
-random top firm + top law school NYC associate

A senior partner at my V-20 firm stated to me that it was almost certain bonuses would remain the same, including special if the associate meets 2000. I also know of very few associates at my firm who will not meet that 2000, if they wanted it.

82-
So be furious--see how far that gets you. The economy is not bad it is horrible. You are entitled to be furious, be sure to let the partners in your firm know that you are furious---I doubt you will be around to receive your first pay check in 2009. Suck it up and realize what is going on around you.

*nervously optimistic that i will have friends after law school*

-nervous T-10 1L

83- Same. Except a partner at my firm told me the special bonus was not certain yet.

NYC V-10

A senior partner at my V-20 firm stated to me that it was almost certain bonuses would remain the same, including special if the associate meets 2000. I also know of very few associates at my firm who will not meet that 2000, if they wanted it.

PHJW announcing Oct 30.....but not paying until March.

*nervously optimistic that my good grades from michigan will ensure I make my billable requirement in the future*

-nervous T-10 1L

83. I heard a similar message through the grapevine at my firm. Unlike 84, I understand that although the economy is in the shitter, the world still turns. Recruits follow bonuses, and smart firms that can afford it know it is a bad signal to cut bonuses while others keep them level.

Its f@#king snowing in NYC right now. This blows worse than nervous guy's prospects for the future.

I am with you 6.

The economy isn't really that bad.

There are going to be a lot of people not hitting their hours this year to qualify for a bonus. But for those that do get their hours in, I'd be shocked if most firms didn't reward them with standard bonuses.

First prize is a $10,000 special bonus. Second prize is a set of steak knives. Third prize is you're fired

If firms keep the same bonus structure, they will still be spending *way* less on bonuses this year. That's because so few people will make their hours. Most associates are way down compared to last year, and November and December are only going to be worse in terms of finding work to do. It wouldn't surprise me if many firms will save 50% or more without making any adjustments to the bonus structure. That's what gives me some hope that bonuses will remain the same. Of course, firms would be happy to use the remaining 50% of bonus money on other things. But they won't want to chase away the few associates who are actually competent enough to make their hours.

Now, if I can just find a way to stay busy through November and December. . .

74 - Hahahahahahaha. Seriously. Hahahahahahaha.

82, I think that you and a lot of the other law students here don't realize that even though the economy is shit and some firms are in trouble, a lot are not. At my firm, revenue is moderately up since last year on an increase in billing rates, a slight increase in headcount and a moderate but not devastating decrease in hours.

I would have options if I wanted to go elsewhere. Many areas of law are quite busy, and smart, qualified mid-levels and senior associates can always get good jobs if they look, as long as it's not their specific area that has melted down. Sure, 1-4th years will have trouble moving now, but I've worked hard, developed good contacts with people in my industry and have continued to be busy over the last several years while my billing rate has steadily increased. If I don't get the bonus I am expecting, I will consider leaving. And my firm would have trouble filling my shoes. It wouldn't be impossible, but it would be a hassle and would hurt our client relationships (and probably a few would come with me).

The reason that firms have to pay bonuses is that it's an accepted part of the compensation for associates. The recent increases to $160 in a lot of places reset the compensation floor, but larger firms in big cities still have to pay more to keep the people they need to keep. Law firm partners have made the to use a compensation scheme other than the "bonuses equal to salary or higher" model used in order to reward bank and hedge fund employees in boom years. To now adopt such a model would be opportunistic and sleazy. They have to keep paying their associates the bonuses they pay them even when the economy is bad, or the associates will get the downside of a "profit sharing" model without the upside of it.

I wouldn't stand for that, and if my firm tried to stiff me this year, I would just get on the phone with one of the recruiters I keep in contact with and could probably move within a week. And, until I did, I wouldn't work on anything and I sure as hell wouldn't give two weeks notice. If that happened (which it won't), then my firm's partners could explain to their clients why saving the $$$ i deserve and have worked for is more important to them than keeping around the associates who do this work. The only places that don't have to worry about this happening are the places where there is no work to do anyway. A lot of those places re lockstep, and places like that need to keep paying bonuses, because if you don't pay bonuses when things are slow, no one is going to bust his ass billing 2500 hours when it's not slow.

Cravath to match Craptell bonuses?

Quit yer cryin.' I just got canned last week. My only "bonus" this year is severance and accrued vacation time! Happy Holidays to me!

-Deadly Serious

95,

That's a classic. Baldwin will forever be remembered for that line.

And very appropriate in today's age.

Jones Day is kicking ass right now. More work than we know what to do with, and lateral partners flocking here.

I don't think GULC will be able to weather this storm. The market is saturated in GULCers GULCing each other out of jobs and homes.

Suck it, Mystal.

Lots of the top firms are cranked up to 11 right now because of all of this bailout stuff. If the folks at S&C, who have been pulling 100 hour weeks regularly since the Bear Stearns collapse, don't get at least what they got last year (regular AND special bonuses), they're going to burn the building down.

84 -- the economy may be horrible, but there are definitely firms that are not struggling and will not be engaging in any layoffs. i know the PPP at my firm went up this past year so there will be a lot of pissed off associates if the firm takes advantage of a shitty market by giving bad bonuses.

98 here, I meant to respond to 84 (11:30), not 82. Sorry! Maybe I am not so fucking special after all!

Somebody keeps posting negative one-liners about Skadden DC. The situation there is fine. If anything, Skadden's better off than most firms because of its size and breadth of practice.

I'm guessing the "merry prankster" is a 2L who didn't get a Skadden DC offer.

nervous that mystal is going to steal my lunch

-nervous t-10 1L

Of course, you can always get a signing bonus for a lateral move:

$18,000 - www.firmtofirm.com

$10,000 - www.laterallink.com

Guys at my high school got boners all the time, it was no big deal.

Of course, you can always get a signing bonus for a lateral move:

$18,000 - www.firmtofirm.com

$10,000 - www.laterallink.com

Somebody keeps posting negative one-liners about Skadden DC. The situation there is fine. If anything, Skadden's better off than most firms because of its size and breadth of practice.

I'm guessing the "merry prankster" is a 2L who didn't get a Skadden DC offer.

First prize for the most hours: A Cadillac.
Second price: A set of steak knives.
Third prize is: you're fired.

Any questions?

"Laughs at the BIGLAW 4th year associate who still writes useless memos and can't fathom what substantive work looks like"

"Laughs at washed out BIGLAW partner who got de-equitized and has no savings to speak of due to five ex-wives, three mistresses and a yacht that lost half its value in a year"

Government Lawyer

Somebody keeps posting negative one-liners about Skadden DC. The situation there is fine. If anything, Skadden's better off than most firms because of its size and breadth of practice.

I'm guessing the "merry prankster" is a 2L who didn't get a Skadden DC offer.

98 -- Wonderful attitude. If you were at my firm, we'd happilly endure the hassle of finding a replacement rather than promote someone like you.

15: "the false pretense that the fiscal year ends in February. This of course is utter nonsense "

God, you're a moron. You better hope no one at PaHa figures out who you are, because that is the single stupidest thing ever posted on ATL.

55--I wouldn't feel too bad; I strongly suspect that K&E NSPs are getting the shaft this year on bonuses--they need to pay the associates and the Share Partners (hell, the secretaries, too) first, and that new building is REALLY expensive. I do think that planning on a $75k bonus this year is setting yourself up to be disappointed, tho.

BREAKING: OBAMA SAYS TAX INCREASES WILL HIT THOSE MAKING $200K.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJvkRFKGgGw

BREAKING: BIDEN SAYS TAX INCREASES WILL HIT THOSE MAKING $150K.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAEE1_IUycs

Somebody keeps posting negative one-liners about Skadden DC. The situation there is fine. If anything, Skadden's better off than most firms because of its size and breadth of practice.

I'm guessing the "merry prankster" is a 2L who didn't get a Skadden DC offer.

98 - I think your comment was thoughtful, and I don't mean to disparage you, but I truly fear for you - and hope you see the light soon.

You seem very deluded about your importance in your firm and impact on its clients... I'm sure that finding a replacement for you when you quit in your self-important protest will not be as burdensome as you portray. Anyhow, good luck.

98 or anyone: which practice areas are busy? I want to make sure I'm busy when I get to a firm and not be a summer no-offered because the work dried up.

Skadden DC- How is it?

Skadden doesn't even HAVE a DC office you idiots.

116, I'm not saying that I'm going to sabotage the place. I'm just making the point that the era of professional loyalty from associate to firm is clearly dead as a result of the permanent changes to the practice of law by the partners of the last 10-20 years. Some of the changes have been good and some have been bad, but they definitely haven't maintained the kind of loyalty that existed from firm to associate 20 years ago. You can make all kinds of arguments about whether this is good or bad, and you can talk about all sorts of aspects of these changes. Whatever your opinion on the changes, the new bargain for associates to accept or GTFO is long hours, significant personal sacrifices, sometimes poor treatment for lots and lots of cash. I know that my firm has the money to continue to reward me for my hard work in accordance with my de facto, but not legally enforceable, expected compensation: my salary plus a bonus in the mid-to-high five figures. If they don't do so, I can only conclude that they have altered the bargain, which is their right, and in that case I would also exercise my right to leave the firm and go to other places that want to employ me. You might call that mercenary, but I don't think that you could characterize the harsh actions that many firms are taking to protect themselves to be less offensive.

This post reads like some lame advertisement for those mercenary recruiting firms, which now promise the true mercenary associate some sort of signing bonus in an attempt to lure top candidates. It is not so intended. Those guys might help make the market more efficient, but less in a trusted advisor sort of way and more in a bail bondsman sort of way.

121 - if you can't guess, just ask to work only on structured derivatives or real estate. Those kids are going crazy these days.

123 -- Is that a joke? Ever heard of Robert Bennett?

98 is so busy billing hours that he doesn't have time to write a long, annoying post about how busy he is.

Taking clients with you? You must be some fucking stud.

I hope Jones Day give the same bonus as last year....... ZERO

BE GLAD YOU HAVE A JOB

DON'T EXPECT A BONUS

BILLING OVER THE EXPECTATION IS NOT GRATUITOUS

OK, STAND UP AND PUT YOUR CLOTHES BACK ON

Jones Day is the model BIGLAW firm

58 & 95 tied for the best post!

Why the rip on Jones Day today??

***in 20 years, laughs as I see government lawyer, his nasty wife, and three under-fed, public school educated children taking pictures with my yacht at Belmont Harbor in the background***

-Kirkland Associate

Cravath and S&C are obviously paying full lockstep bonuses. I know people there busy as ever.

Thus, we can only hope for the trickle-down effect.

Anyone know when Firm To Firm's 18K bonuses http://www.firmtofirm.com are paid? Immediately on placement? After some number of months?

I don't see anything on their site about it.

Government Lawyer --

It's okay. We get it. You're doing wonderfully fulfilling work. Nobody in the government is miserable. Nobody in the government works long hours. Nobody in the government has been divorced.

Of course, these statements are far from universally true. What is universally true, you ask? You all get paid much, much, much, much less than we do. We all make tradeoffs in life.

BIGLAW ASS.

All I'm sayin' is that while you're all freaking out over layoffs and bonuses, we government lawyers are sitting pretty. For us, the slow economy just means we have less work and can take our flex fridays.

i pee in empty poland spring bottles.

-nervous t-10 1L

A partner at my v-20 firm had too much to drink the other day at a function, and told all of us sitting at his table that the thinking is they're going to up bonuses this year, including special, for everyone over the minimum hours to reward the practice groups with lots of work and to try to distance the firm. Then he realized he probably shouldn't be talking about this and assured us nothing had been settled yet, and they're waiting a while to see what's happening. Alcohol and socially awkward partners make an interesting combo.

137 - I know several government lawyers - one thing is for sure - none of you are pretty. Oh, none of you has enough money to enjoy your 'flex fridays.' Incidentally, the days of the week should begin with capital letters.

Fascinating story 139. Just fascinating.

GDC NY & DC will be paying market + special.

What's the problem, 141?

I'm nervous about making it as an alternate contender in the Special Olympics.

-nervous t-10 1L

I am nervous about being nervous soon.

-nervous t-10 1L

I am nervous about being nervous soon.

-nervous t-10 1L

It's pretty simple. There is clearly collusion going on in the bonus market. Partners talk to other partners at firms with similar prestige in similar areas. At top firms most partners have lost more than we've ever earned in the market this year, and don't want to pay. They don't want to get scooped either. We're going to have to wait until mid-December, when the top firms will all come out, one after the other, with a bonus structure similar to last year's, because they can afford it, and there will be lots of work coming out of this collapse, but no one wants to push the envelope this year. It may be rational to think that it's a good opportunity to create a splash if you're a top 20, but not top 5 firm. But if you've just taken a 7 figure hit in the market, you're not exactly rational.

I think I might be more nervous than ever about the possibility that my nerves might have a complete nervous breakdown. That only makes me nervouser.

-nervous t-10 1L

The top NY firms, like Cleary, Cravath, Debevoise, Paul Weiss, etc will pay out what they did last year, let's not kid ourselves. It's the non-NY firms and the below V50 firms that will wind up with a lot of whining associates. At the end of the day, every firm isn't, and can't be, Cravath. You want that type of money, go to that type of firm. If you choose not to or can't get in, well that's just life. I myself lateralled down to a below V50 firm and I'm not worrying about bonuses; I'd just be happy to keep my job at this point.

149=blatant Cleary/Devoise trolling

Anyone thinking bonuses will resemble those of recent years is delusional. Most partners are scared shirtless that the next firm that implodes will be theirs. They are also pretty sure that business will be bad next year (and maybe beyond) and the firm should hoard cash since no one knows what credit will be available or how many clients will demand reduced fees and/or be slow to pay.

Some firms may even implement a REVERSE BONUS with associates being docked from $5K - $25K depending on year. It's a pay cut, but firms will pretend that it's only for the next year . . . until they extend it. Those suggesting their firm would never cut back because people would leave, better think again. The lateral market, even for high performers, is dying. Besides, firms want some people to leave even if they were considered an asset until 2 months ago.

151, no partners at Wachtell, Cravath, or S&C are worried. No associates at those firms are slow.

Bonus at top firms will remain at the same rates as last year, special bonus included.

Many of you seem to assume that firm management actually cares about your happiness, and factor that into their decision making process about compensation...

roflmao!!!1

Everyone here says that government lawyers make "much much much much" less than we do. I am a V15 associate. As a third year, I make about 185 base and *maybe* 40 in bonus (if there is a bonus this year). My total comp is about 225.

I have friends at the SEC that dont work nearly as hard as I do or suffer the immense stresses that I do (or deal with the paranoid, anal retentive, slightly psychotic partners I deal with), my same age, that make $125-130k. Is that "much much much much" less that I make? I know 40% less is significant, but is it "much much much" less given the difference lifestyle and the fact that their salary is decent by all US standards? I doubt it . . .

Everyone here says that government lawyers make "much much much much" less than we do. I am a V15 associate. As a third year, I make about 185 base and *maybe* 40 in bonus (if there is a bonus this year). My total comp is about 225.

I have friends at the SEC that dont work nearly as hard as I do or suffer the immense stresses that I do (or deal with the paranoid, anal retentive, slightly psychotic partners I deal with), my same age, that make $125-130k. Is that "much much much much" less that I make? I know 40% less is significant, but is it "much much much" less given the difference lifestyle and the fact that their salary is decent by all US standards? I doubt it . . .

153 - it's not happiness of current associates, smart guy. It's not wanting to damage future recruiting by being a low-baller. It's also not wanting people to leave to find other opportunities. If no one pays a high bonus, everyone stays, recruiting is the same. If one firm low-balls, maybe associates at that firm don't leave immediately, but you can bet it'll seriously hurt recruiting, and people will leave as soon as things get better. Not a good going forward strategy.

I'd be fine with a simple 5-10% CoL adjustment.

I agree completely with #124 , right on

If you dont see that by now, you probably are a law student that has not hit the reality of BigLaw

155 - it depends what you're in it for - me, I'm only here for a couple of years and plan to put away as much as I can in that time. So, yes, an extra $80-90k is much, much, much more.

Anyone can talk to a parnter about what bonuses are going to be but some random partner in a firm doesn't mean squat. However a firm is structured to establish bonus payout - those partners are the ones that matter on the decision.

Further, firms are awash in potential candidates. I doubt they would care if someone left b/c of a lower bonus paid out in a lean year. The law firm model wants people to leave and the bonuses are only there to keep rentention during up times. Where is an associate going to go if they are PO about getting a lower bonus?

Be a regulatory lawyer at a top ten firm . . . a little boring but all the same cash and almost the lifestyle of a government lawyer

Of course firms care about potential candidates. You think everyone followed suit on 160k out of the goodness of their hearts? Or followed Cravath because it was the right thing to do by their associates? C'mon.

The main problem at many (not all) firms right now is too many lawyers. If lower than expected bonuses cause some attrition (which is unlikely), then that's just a bonus for the partners.

163 - maybe in the most short sighted of firms. The better, established firms know that you have to weather the slow periods. Getting rid of a percentage of underperforming associates hurts you much more in boom time than it helps you in down times. They're not going to mortgage their future on the present unless they have to.

ASSOCIATES UNION NOW!

THEY HAVE THE BILLABLES BUT WE HAVE THE POWER!

UNITE!

ASSOCIATES UNION NOW!

THEY HAVE THE BILLABLES BUT WE HAVE THE POWER!

UNITE!

#15-"For incoming classes it means that you will work for 15 months before you see a bonus check while the firm gets to use money you already earned as an interest-free loan for a few months."

First years are unprofitable for firms. Associates become profitable later and become max profitable between 4th and 6th years. After that, they become too expensive to staff on matter.

155-Yes, that is much less. Learn to work. Sorry you can't go home and beat your schlong while watching superbad for the 50th time tonight. Stay and get some fucking work done. The difference also increases dramatically the longer you stay in private (well, not you, but winners) and the longer they stay in public.

150, what does "Cleary/Devoise trolling" even mean? I admitted that I don't work for those firms.

hey 168, 155 here

bite my schlong u prick

there are a couple other pay to place also.

laterallink.com $10k very detailed website

Firmtofirm.com 18K not much info on their website about who works for them, and their current job listings are password protected...

legalrecruitingassociates.com $20k bonus. Pretty detailed.

I think they all pay after you've started work, but not sure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FxAF2Oyhfc

HOW ABOUT LITIGATION BOUTIQUES?

V20 to $190K. You heard it here first.

167 - i don't believe the bs that 1st years are unprofitable for firms. i've seen the invoices and they're billing me out at $350/hr without writing off any of my time. i'm billing 2200 hours this year. so unless they're spending $500k on "training" or spending money on other resources that i don't really benefit from, they are definitely making money off of me.

I work at an unnamed top 4 NYC firm (can't put that Skadden dog in with the rest of us...), so I'm going to assume that a lot of these bullshit comments about "bonuses are going to suck" and "be happy you have a job", and "0% chance of a special bonus", just don't apply to me.
Is that a safe assumption?

167, at least at S&C, where we use value billing, that's simply false. Maybe your firm can't get clients to pay for your time, but some of us actually add value from day one.

Government Lawyer, I'm a first year at a firm and I just opted into an "exchange program" for associates. I get to go work for the county attorney's office for the duration of my second year. So I get to do that whole 9-5 think that you're so keen on and best of all, I get to do it AT MY SALARY! And when I come back the year is credited to I'll be a third year. Suck it.

"Exchange program" = gentle way of laying off unproductive associates.

*enjoys my job security*

- GL

" "Exchange program" = gentle way of laying off unproductive associates."

are you delusional?

176: in a word, yes.

# 176: "Is that a safe assumption?"

Definitely not. Firms will not pay more than they have to or can afford to. When everyone is cutting back, there is no penalty for those going along with the pack.

GL - my firm has had this program for years, and everyone comes back for their 3rd year. They don't lay anyone off, and the program is entirely optional.

-178

People here are hilarious. True, Jones Day has never paid the highest bonuses, no one's going to claim that. But JD just posted the best 6 month revenue in its history. It's literally HIRING top-notch partners from other firms that are bleeding out, and is literally purging clients off its books because it has too much business. JD never claimed to be the best at bonsues, but it's a damn well managed law firm that's not going anywhere anytime soon.

I'm a 1L in the midwest (MN), people here just don't seem to be freaking out as much. Is that an accurate assessment or am I just spending to much time in the library to know what people are talking about?

Drop out and cut your losses, 185.

No, seriously.

186, really? Everyone here seems to be doing fine. 2Ls all seem to be getting summer offers, and 3Ls are all getting full-time offers. I haven't heard any horror stories coming out of my school. Is the Minneapolis market really that bad? I know I won't make 160K but it just doesn't look like everything is falling apart.

-185

Hey, JD cheerleader, you aren't supposed to use the "literally" construction (as in "literally HIRING") unless it's a verb or construct commonly used in hyperbole - as in, "the law student was literally dancing in the library after she learned that she got a job at a better law firm than Jones Day." It doesn't work for "hiring."

183, keep drinking the Kool Aid......maybe the County Attorney's office will offer you a slot as a paralegal after you "transition" out of BIGLAW

189 I'm not transitioning anywhere. There are plenty of associates and partners at my firm who did this program during their 2nd year. You're just pissed because I get to work 9-5 with a real salary.

-178/183

171 - there's also an additional headhunting firm that pays bonuses: prosumes. So the list of firms I know of are:

20K bonus - http://leaglrecruitingauthority.com

18K bonus - http://www.firmtofirm.com

10K bonus - http://www.laterallink.com

5K bonus - http://www.prosumes.com

List of firms that get shat on CONSTANTLY by ATL readers:

--CWT
--Skadden
--Jones Day

98 is completely delusional. I'm an in-house attorney. You know how much we care about associates? Not at all. We hire partners and firms, not associates. If you left, they'd replace you. We certainly would never fire a firm because they let go of an associate.

Second, what makes you think you can find a job? I know people who've been looking for over a year and can't find the right fit.

192 -- because they're TTTs

You douche bags better get down to your accounting departments and kiss your collections department's ass... Doesn't matter how much you frickin' bill if it isn't collected.

Layoffs = planning for a future downturn (i.e. 2009)

Bonuses = based on 2008 hours

While laying off underperformers does send a message to associates to work harder and bill more hours, failing to reward those associates who exceeded their target hours by shafting on bonuses also sends a message: don't bother overperforming.

At my firm, bonus eligibility kicks in at 2000 hours, and beyond the class bonus (i.e., for making your hours) there is additional money at each 100-hour increment thereafter, maxing out at 2400. This year, even if the total dollar amount allocated for bonuses is smaller as a whole, in an hours-based bonus structure, there are fewer associates eligible for a bonus in the first place, particularly in the CDO/securities-backed deals transactional practice groups. As such, shafting associates who bring in 2200, 2300, etc. hours would be a very shortsighted move, especially if the firm's profits are only slightly off-pace from last year (which I know for a fact that they are at my Chicago firm.)

While the pie may be smaller, for those of us who have been crushing the hours, the slices should be bigger. Anything less would be an insult to those whom the firm needs the most.

Guys in my high school used to work at SkaTTTenDC all the time. They used to get paid their bonuses in Black Tar Heroin and Tug Jobs. It was no big deal.

A big bonus this year could increase a firms prestige significantly. For this reason, I would actually expect wealth, non-V50 firms to follow at the top of the market. Prime example: SRZ

173 - A lot of litigation boutiques are thriving. Plus, with their bonus structure, you don't have to worry as much about what you'll be getting. Thinking of BSF specifically, since I don't know how Susman or Keker work.

My coworker seriously spent $10k of her bonus on cheese last year. She smells really bad and seems to be growing a mustache - they should fire her.

I'd take a smaller bonus if i got a hotter secretary

For all you Skadden bashers, including you, 176, I make the following guarantee:

Skadden will not be the first to announce, but will pay the New York market bonus (Cravath/S&C/Simpson), lockstep, to all associates in all domestic offices who reach at least 1600 hours. (Anyone below that level gets 50%). Skadden has done so for at least the past six years, and thus has paid more money in associate bonuses in the aggregate than any other firm in the United States. The firm is very busy and ZERO debt.

So for all of you non-V5 Skadden bashers who will yet again be receiving far less compensation than the Skadden lawyer across the street from you, enjoy worrying about whether you have a job next year at your "more prestigious" firm.

Bonus Wizard, II

To the Government Lawyer,

I grew up dirt poor, and didn't even consider government work as an option. I had significant debt from college and law school. Additionally, I wanted to make sure that I could put some extra money away to help my folks retire in a few years.

So I took a BIGLAW job. For the past two years, I've worked lots of hours. It's been stressful at times, but on the whole it's been good. I like the work I do. I like the people I work with. I own a nice apartment in a nice city. I have some money in the bank. I can help my folks out whenever they need it.

When I reflect on the choice between government work and BIGLAW, I'm reminds of my 2nd year of law school: I was looking for an apartment, and responded to an ad posted on Craigslist. As it turns out, the place was a 2 bedroom; and the guy looking for a roommate was a 32 year old lawyer for the government. I remember the depressing feeling that experience gave me--- a 32 year old man who needed a roommate to help him pay the rent. Not my scene.

So maybe your family has money, so you don't have to worry about those sorts of things. So you're not posting for roommates on Craigslist. If that's the case, congratulations.

But don't think that people working BIGLAW are universally miserable. We're not.

Bonus Wizard, II is right. I'm pretty sure we're going to see a replay of last in terms who pays what to whom, with maybe a surprise or two. Firms that pay lockstep, no minimum hours bonuses will pay out this year I'm guessing somewhere around the regular bonuses. Hours-based shops will say that they match, but given how slow things, I'm betting a majority of associates won't make their hours and get screwed.

That's the problem with firms that require a minimum numbers of hours. They just say that they match the NYC market but then they don't pay out to everyone. Law students don't see through this or they buy the line that everyone at every lockstep firm bills way over 2000 hours (which is simply not true). Skadden takes a little bit of the same angle, but at 1600, its a much easier target to hit.

***********************************************************
The best way for associates to ensure high bonuses is to immediately make hundreds/thousands of negative posts regarding firms who announce they are paying sub-2007 bonuses. This negative publicity may cause other firms to reconsider paying sub-2007 bonuses prior to their bonus announcements.
***********************************************************

I am the Great Billdini. Some of your bonuses will suck, some firms will claim to pay and secretly not pay, some of your bonuses will match market numbers from years past, some will be tied to hours and some high billers will get an extra treat in their stocking.

The Great Billdini has spoken!

Cravath will announce same numbers as last year (regular & "special") Friday afternoon. You heard it here first.

Cravath will announce same numbers as last year (regular & "special") Friday afternoon. You heard it here first.

Cravath will announce same numbers as last year (regular & "special") Friday afternoon. You heard it here first.

Some of us work for the government. Forgive me for not crying over biglaw bonuses.

ELIE

WHY NOT AN OFFICIAL ATL POLL REGARDING WHAT EVERYONE THINKS BONUSES WILL BE. THIS IS THE ONLY WAY TO ESTABLISH SOME SORT OF CONSESUS AND MAY SERVE AS A GOOD PREDICTOR OF 2008 BONUSES

-TBONE

To 202:
You say Skadden is better than the rest of the V5 because you only have to bill 1600 to get the full bonus, and below 1600 you get half bonus.

Reality: At the the V5 firm I'm at, you get FULL bonus even at below 1600. So, if I am in some Corporate department that is slow this year for whatever reason and I bill 800-1100 hours, I'll get twice the bonus as my Skadden counterpart.
So, how exactly is it that I'm "receing far less compensation than the Skadden lawyer across the street from" me? The associates make MORE money when you factor in the associates that bill fewer hours, and all of the partners make more money as well. GG newb?
-176

Uh, 212, you suck at reading comprehension.

202 said "all of you non-V5 Skadden bashers who will yet again be receiving far less compensation than the Skadden lawyer across the street." Seeing as how you claim to be at a V5 firm, you're not included.

i guess that explains the LSAT score

-212

i guess that explains the LSAT score

-212

Is there a limit to Skadden's generous 1600 hour policy? I don't see why a firm would keep on an associate who billed 1650 every year.

Weil will be bonuses that are essentially the same as '07, but no special bonus tacked on like '07.

I heard that Milbank has made provision for a special bonus again this year but are waiting to see what others will do before they announce anything

what

I am a midlevel at a V50-100. I am guessing even though I am only slightly under or about my hours that I will make 0-5k. Stinks to be me. But, then again, I often have evenings and weekends free.