Open Thread: LSAT Eve
For aspiring law students, tomorrow marks a crucial step on the prestige whore journey. The LSAT will go a long way towards defining which school you are supposedly “insecure” about not getting into.
It’s all too easy to say that the LSAT is a terrible way to judge success in law school and beyond. All standardized tests are silly at some level. Some claim that the LSAT is racially biased, and most people agree that people that can afford expensive test-prep courses do better than those that can’t afford those classes.
But, in a blatant attempt to get up in Brian Leiter’s grill, let’s put together an argument that the LSAT is the best measure of law school success that has yet been invented.
The LSAT does capture a couple of key law school skills, the most important of which is the logical reasoning sections. A lot of time is spent in law school playing a game of, “one of these kids is doing his own thing, one of these kids just doesn’t belong.” Spotting weak or incorrect arguments guarantees you a law school B, before you go to class or crack a case book.
And for practicing attorneys, making weak, faulty, or altogether nonsensical arguments is half the ball game. “My client’s gross misstatements about oil are much more like Justice Holmes’s correct statements about water, therefore my client’s statements were actually correct.” Good lawyers know a fallacy when they see it and when they use it.
The reading comprehension section is a bit, meh. But reading is fundamental to everything a lawyer does so at least the section is fair.
The games are a very accurate indicator of issue spotting and fact development. All the games are is a three step process that you’ll see on every law school exam: here are some rules, here are some facts, tell me what happened. And what is fact development other than putting various concerns in their appropriate boxes (or binders as it were)?
Love it or hate it, the LSAT tests some very basic thought processes that law students and lawyers will use everyday. Maybe it’s not an indicator of future success because people can be trained, but it’s a great indicator of whether you “think like a lawyer” or not.
Some tips for LSAT success after the jump.
No list can be inclusive, but here are the best tips I can think of for doing well on the LSAT. Please feel free to add, amend —or ask me to tell you what score I got and then call me a liar— in the comments.
* The Logic Games section is the easiest section on the whole test. Write the rules down, make a different picture for each question, one really can get every single one of those questions correct.
* Don’t think outside the box. Ever. It’s not just that every question can be answered based solely on the plain text reading of the question, it’s also true that there are answers designed to trip you up should you try to add a “common sense” overlay to the question.
* Ever heard the phrase “… to take things to it’s logical conclusion.” Do that. All the time. If you come to a patently ridiculous point that has no real-world applicability, you’ve arrived at the right answer.
* Carb-up.
* But lay off the caffeine. Adrenalin will keep you awake, coffee will make you jittery.
* If you need to use the bathroom, use the bathroom. I took a “number 2” during the (much, much more stressful) bar exam. Everything worked out fine.
Other tips and advice? Share your strategies in the comments.
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Comments
I got a 130 on my LSAT
Signed,
Touro Grad
Some say the LSAT is racially biased?
And some people say that Elvis is still alive and visited them on his space ship.
Don't they have the LSAT like every other month? I hope this is not a recurring feature.
Third to say who gives a shit...
Really? People are still going to law school?
If there is one day in your life where you can escape a life of TTT, here it is.
P.S.
if you get below a 160, you should reconsider your career in law.
I got a 143 and I still graduated summa at Hofstra!
-- Hofstra summa
i'm a 1L and i need a job!!! (i got a 172 on the lsat, will that get me a 1L sa position?)
-nervous T-10 1L
Claiming that the LSAT isn't as bad as other standardized tests and s a halfway decent measure of some attributes that are valuable in law school/practice? OMG! TOTALLY GROUNDBREAKING AND/OR GUTSY!!!!!!
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD ELIE -- LEARN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN "IT'S" AND "ITS." THIS IS OF VITAL IMPORTANCE IN WAYS YOU CANNOT POSSIBLY COMPREHEND.
Bet Palin would ace the LSAT
160
3.8 in T1 law school
V5
Eat it
Not that they would check here but wannabe lawyers - run, run very fast away from this idea.
Joe Biden got a 143, so did his son. That's why they both went to Syracuse Law. Congrats to them on that.
Logical reasoning must have been his strong suit. His comb job involves nothing short of upper level calculus. He toils before a mirror primping, pressing, and prepping that beautiful silver head of hair for his day to come.
I for one think that if you can turn that hair into what he prepared for the debate, he is ready to take over in the event a Ron Paul 08 supporter quickly vaults Biden into the U.S. Presidency, if you know what I mean.
Signed,
Dey toookkkk arrrr jobssssss
Can we please have less stories about Elie pooping? Thanks.
I have a friend who had an offer from Nova this year, but wanted to take some time off and gun for FCU instead. He had a solid 3.0 at Rollins and was President of the football team. Any idea what kind of LSAT score he needs?
Hey 7, I've got a job for you - you can plant tulips for me...two lips right on my fat ass. Moron.
11 - you may have achievd a 3.8 at a T1 school, but people with such low LSAT scores never make partner.
SUCK IT!
"The idea he doesn't realize that Article I of the Constitution defines the role of the vice president of the United States, that's the Executive Branch. He works in the Executive Branch. He should understand that. Everyone should understand that."
are all lawyers as unfunny as 16? i want to work for a firm where people have a sense of humor. i guess i'll take what i can get though for my 1L year.
-nervous T-10 1L
Joe Biden got a 143, so did his son. That's why they both went to Syracuse Law. Congrats to them on that.
Logical reasoning must have been his strong suit.
__________________________________________
Well everyone can't take 6 years and 5 garbage schools to get a garbage B.A. That kind of achivement requires that logical reasoning be your "strong suit" . . .along with script/teleprompter reading . . .
The LSAT may be racially biased, but affirmative action overdoes the gap.
7- It looks like you're still a bama according 16...
The biggest thing the LSAT tests is your ability to handle a big test under immense pressure. This is an incredibly important skill in law school and pretty important to being a lawyer too.
To quote Elie:
"Love it or hate it, the LSAT tests some very basic thought process that law students ..."
Define irony. Harvard law grad speaking about superior intelligence via a standardized test when said grad cannot use proper grammar.
Below the Law Student--A Law School Tabloid
Lawyer looking for stories of interest to practicing attorneys, signing off!
(Lat--I know you're not coming back, but aren't you the Grand Pooba editor, or something? I've tried to hold back my criticism, but this blog isn't going downhill, it's skydiving without a parachute. A shame really.)
To quote Elie:
"Love it or hate it, the LSAT tests some very basic thought process that law students ..."
Define irony. Harvard law grad speaking about superior intelligence via a standardized test when said grad cannot use proper grammar.
Low LSAT score or not, clients simply like me better than they like others. That equals book of business.
20, face facts.
Palin has a bachelor of SCIENCE in communications. But, she was so overqualified for sportscasting (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV-vWrU27Go) that it was obvious she'd be President one day.
Yeah, only those with 170+ LSAT scores have the necessary reading comprehension and logical reasoning skills needed to decipher the average Elie post....
Can we cut that "nervous T10 1L" crap out?? If you really want a SA position, ace your law school exams this first semester - I guarantee that you will land a spot in a firm (although it might not be in a primary market). If you can't get the grades, then it's your own fault and you don't deserve a spot anyways. It's on you.
Now that people are addressing the elephant in the room (nervous T10 1L), let's just face facts. 30 is right. Also, as nervous as you may be, at least to you didn't head to B School in an attempt to become an investment banker. Law is cyclical, but not disappearing.
scored a 120 and got a full ride to GULC
30 - i'm a summer starter at michigan so i already have my first semester grades and they're somewhere between a 3.8-4.0 (so as to not out myself). i'm still nervous IN THIS ECONOMY though.
-nervous T-10 1L
If anyone looking at this thread is thinking about law school- consider this- the people posting here will be your colleagues. Run while you still can and have a chance to be happy, not just rich.
160k cannot buy enough stuff to make the hours you're not sleeping in your office worth it. Trust me. I aced the LSAT. It was a bad life decision.
Kids my high school used to get LSAT scores lower than 170 all the time. They didn't go to law school.
It was cool.
I love practicing law and making a lot of money. Then again, I work in a "non-primary" market.
Kids my high school used to get LSAT scores lower than 170 all the time. They didn't go to law school.
It was cool.
Don't sweat the LSAT.
You can always get into GULC.
Cooley announced the pickup of 15 Heller partners across the country (core VLG) and opening of a Seattle office.
Unfortunately, the LSAT does not indicate success in law school. Willingness to sleep with an assistant Dean does, as proven by one blonde girl in my law school class. I read her legal work later in life: it was terrible. Naturally she is now a judge in Utah. My advice? Do as well as you can to get into the school you really want to get in, then find an attractive faculty member and "sleep away."
Lol, then you are an insecure moron, 33.
13. Joe Biden could not have gotten a 143. The LSAT in the 60s was scored from 200-800.
Kids my high school used to get LSAT scores lower than 170 all the time. They didn't go to law school.
It was cool.
STOP THE NERVOUS 1L CRAP.
ALL 1Ls are nervous...
just sign "annoying 1L" instead
My LSAT? Less than 160, yet my GPA beat the living crap out of all the 170+ kids I met. I think it's because I can read and write? Unlike Elie, you elitist douche...
If you can't get into a T10, don't go to law school right now. Shoot for 168 on the LSAT.
-TTTer who has a market rate CA job. AMLaw 200, bitches! Have fun billing 2400 hours and never making partner while I bill 1900 and have no questions asked!
If you get a shitty score, go to plumbing school. The union will pay for you to go. Odds are you'll net more in the end that way.
recent Big Law hiree
Got a 154, went to a "TTT," and am now a first year making $140,000. Suck one, LSAT.
158 - went to St. John's and doing just fine.
151, Fourth Tier, $160,000 a year.....suck it LSAT and 48
151, Fourth Tier, $160,000 a year.....F the LSAT
But, bust your a$$ and make 162 and the road is a LOT smoother to that salary.
157 - 3.8 GPA offer from vault(5).
lsat is bull
STOP THE NERVOUS 1L CRAP.
ALL 1Ls are nervous...
just sign "annoying 1L" instead
39 -- Hopefully Cooley's Seattle office has fewer douche bags than its Boston office.
LSATs?? Really?? Who the heck gives a crap! Perhaps the next post should be about next week's Spelling Bee at Springfield Elementary. Know your audience...
I don't get the arguement that test prep classes are too expensive. Your about to spend $120,000+. $1,300 to get into a school that helps you get a job that pays $160,000 the first year, or that helps you save tens of thousands on tuition is not a lot of money.
- Robin Singh
Got a 154, went to a "TTT," and am now a first year making $140,000. Suck one, LSAT.
Had a horrible GPA from a very stupid major, got a 170+, went to CCN, below median GPA, v10! *high five*!
no pressure or anything on you guys, good luck!
So "nervous T-10 1L" don't you think you are definitely a bama now...
YOUR grammar is terrible.
50,
I work 50 hours a week, all but guaranteeing that my hourly pay is higher than yours.
Fondly,
48.
My story: Got a 164 in Dec. 2006, got into a T14 and T10 (grades + good essay + hustle), worked hard (but not more than 50 hrs/week or so, pretty managable) at the latter, made into the to 10%, have multiple v10 offers.
Moral: you can still do not stellar on the LSAT and wind up ok.
I like hearing about people who did not so hot on the LSAT who are now rubbing elbows with the elitist losers whose biggest achievement in life was scoring in the 170s
GULC has a higher 25-75 LSAT than the following T14 schools:
Duke
Michigan
UVA
Penn
Berkeley
Cornell
It's tied with Northwestern
I don't get it. Why does the LSAT even mean anything anymore? They no longer average the scores.
If you don't get the score you want, take it again. and again. and again. and again. Don't settle for less than a 170. Who cares how much the test costs? You'll make up the cost of the test when you graduate from the school you wanted to attend. Unless you have 5 kids to feed, put off law school until you get a 170. Go work at a fun place for a while. Do some non-profit work. Just don't apply with anything less than 170.
I think someone said it best in a bar exam thread - you will realize that the LSAT was the most important test you took that had anything to do with law school.
GULC has a higher 25-75 LSAT than the following T14 schools:
Duke
Michigan
UVA
Penn
Berkeley
Cornell
It's tied with Northwestern
GULC has a higher 25-75 LSAT than the following T14 schools:
Duke
Michigan
UVA
Penn
Berkeley
Cornell
It's tied with Northwestern
65- you're joking, right?
GULC has a higher 25-75 LSAT than the following T14 schools:
Duke
Michigan
UVA
Penn
Berkeley
Cornell
It's tied with Northwestern
I worship the ground Robin Singh walks on! He helped me improve my score 13 points. I got a 147, got into Thomas M. Cooley, and my life is on track for big money! Imagine where I would be if I hadn't taken the class!
LSAT. Suck. My. Balls.
174 3.25, who will admit me IN THIS ECONOMY?
174, top 4, top 2%. $160K first year. Screw all of you!
168, so-so grades (barely top third) at T20 law school because I was lazy, now at AmLaw 100 firm anyway... and hating every minute of it!
Er, sorry for the rant. Bottom line: LSAT measures your ability to take the LSAT. Period.
158 got me a scholly at a TTT where I finished cum laude and am now billing my ass off at a V15. The LSAT means something, but you can overcome it if you don't do as as well as you want.
Relax tonight, get some sleep and kick some ass tomorrow. Good luck to all of you.
To any LSAT taker, my advice would be to remember that while the LSAT is important, it isn't everything. A friend of mine got a 178 on the LSAT but didn't get into a single T20 school because his GPA wasn't great. So try to do your best, but don't stress too much. Good luck!
Got a 154, went to a TTT and TRANSFERRED to a T10. V5--market rate.
But, I agree, the road would have been smoother and less expensive with a 170 LSAT.
good story 66, 67 and 69 but no one believes you
75: "Kick some ass tomorrow"? What, in my touch football league or something?
I had a 2.88 ugrad GPA when I applied to law school and a 170 on my LSAT. I'm now in the top 2% of my T1 law school. +1 for the LSAT.
Oh yeah - and I'm going to a V10.
--80
I GULCed my pants while taking the LSATs.
I also GULCed my pants the fourth time I took the bar.
And remember, after your first day of law school, your LSAT counts for exactly dick.
45, what makes you think Elie got 170+ to get into Harvard?
Affirmative action would have effectively given him 12 extra LSAT points, if UMichigan's "diversity" policy in Grutter was at all representative.
The only thing sadder than an elitist is a person trying to pretend to be one.
I hate people like 80. Probably doesn't study at all and loves to drink.
- 50
I think more people should "go number two" during the test.
Nervous 1-L,
Face it, you may not summer at a firm this summer. You may have to do something like, say, work for a judge. It's still experience (and you've got the added benefit of paying to live in Ann Arbor and not paying to live in NYC, which reduces your debt burden).
The number one way to eliminate yourself from the running for a summer associate position at a firm, however: put your LSAT score on your resume.
Got a 154, went to a TTT and TRANSFERRED to a T10. V5--market rate.
But, I agree, the road would have been smoother and less expensive with a 170 LSAT.
86: Already do. I "go number two" (or GULC) in my pants during exams.
Think twice--no, four times--before you cancel your score right after the exam. I could not figure out one whole section of logic games and guessed pretty much that whole section. Felt awful coming out of the exam (probably because that section was right near the end). I left my score alone and was very glad because I did *very* well.
Good thing the was an "open thread". I probably could not have posted otherwise.
got a 161, went to TT, ended in only top 20%...
making $150,000 first year.
f the LSAT
got a 161, went to TT, ended in only top 20%...
making $150,000 first year.
f the LSAT
I got a 163, mediocre undergrad grades, and ended up at a T40. Graduated top 10% class, and clerked for both a federal dist. court and federal appellate court judge. Currently work at a V15.
Bottom line -- LSAT is important but not the end all. Just get a good night sleep at this point. Best of luck to all of you.
logic games are useless. i got a 166 (all the wrong answers were in logic games) but had a 4.0 in college and got into a t13 school (one that actually still gives real grades on a strict curve)...ended up top 5% of my class.
ergo, logic games are only indicative of how much of a geek you are
Some actual advice and no snarking here:
Everyone and their mother tells you not to cancel your score because you'll score just the same the next time. Ignore them.
I took the LSAT once and knew I had screwed it up. I cancelled my score the next day. I'll never know what I got on that test, but I know I didn't do well. I took it again a few months later, knew I had done well, and ended up jumping up and down in the post office when I got my score report with a 170 on it. So if you know you screwed up, cancel.
The second piece of advice for future test takers is not to waste your time on a ridiculous Kaplan course. Just get a book of old tests and do them. All of them.
If you can't break 160 on the LSAT there is something wrong with your brain.
- 175+ scorer
158 LSAT, GULC cum laude, white male transfer (went in the back door, like I did with your sister).
Pete Bondurant
Forgot it was tomorrow-- good luck to anyone taking it.
Couple things.
You will score 5-7 pts lower than your practice average. It's normal. Even if this gives you a 173-75, you SHOULD NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL. But you will, because you don't think rationally and refuse to actually investigate whether it is a good idea. And then you will regret it.
-BigLaw first year
94 - Thank you. I f-ing hate logic games. Logic games are the bane of my existence and after tomorrow if someone ever asks me to order 12 loaves of sliced or unsliced/oatmeal, rye, sourdough and wheat bread being delivered to Mary, Seamus and Xavier, Monday through Thursday during either AM or PM deliveries, but never twice to the same person on the same day and never to Mary on Mondays, I will take my No. 2 pencil and stab it into that person's aorta.
- Already as bitter as you sad, pathetic people, and I haven't even gotten into law school yet.
Scored 163 - Top 2% from Tier 4 school -
Accepted offer for $130K+ 1850 billable req.
SUCK IT
I used to teach LSAT for Princeton Review. Some serious advice:
The LSAT has been getting progressively harder. What you score on old practice tests is not necessarily indicative of how you will score on the real thing.
Test prep courses help, but only so much. The LSAT is "highly speeded," meaning that it is designed so that only the very best will be able to finish it. Prep courses can help you use your time more efficiently, but they can't teach you to think faster.
Test prep instructors will tell you the LSAT is just a test, and not a measure of intelligence or your abilities as a lawyer. We do this to reduce the pressure you might feel during the test. It's bullshit.
The LSAT correlatates with IQ better than any other standardized admissions test. Most high IQ societies (i.e. Mensa) accept LSAT scores for admission to their nerdy ranks for this reason. The LSAT also correlates with first year law school performance better than any other single quantifiable factor. The LSAT is not racist. In fact, LSAT scores tend to overpredict success for minorities. (If it were racist, it would underpredict success.)
If you are doing very poorly on LSAT practice tests, consider another career. Law schools value LSAT more than any other admissions factor (see above), and the quality of law school you attend will have a huge impact on your career options. No one cares where a doctor went to med school, but every employer will care where you went to law school.
There are other rewarding professions, and lawyers tend to be miserable. So don't despair.
103-
A better indicator of who gets into law school than the LSAT:
Race: White
Sex: Male
Check the stats.
lsat means nothing after you get your acceptance letter. anyone who says otherwise is lying. does not predict how you are going to do in law school.
also, if you get in and happen to talk to a person who reveals his/her lsat score, never speak to that person again. this will be the same maniac who discusses grades, gpa, etc. and can't have a conversation about anything other than cases.
The only thing you need a good LSAT score for is to teach losers how to do better on the LSAT. Everyone else gets in by mailing the dean of admissions an eight-ball.
103: Wrong.
Test prep classes make all the difference in the world-- especially for those who make the jump from 150's to 160's. Sure, it's only ten points, but those points make all the difference for T1.
And, for any of you who are taking a later LSAT, take TestMasters. Kaplan and Princeton Review hire instructors with MUCH lower LSAT scores.
Any fool who listens to these "158 LSAT, v5 firm making market, Bitch!" is setting themselves up for major disappointment.
Could it be true? Yeah it could.
Is it likely? Not a chance in hell.
Even if these folks were telling the truth, they are a small, small percentage of people who score the way they claim to.
OLs, my advice, do your best, and remember that BigLaw is but a small percentage of actual law, even if it seems like it's all of it. Christ, my pops was in the 1st class of an unaccredited law school, hung his own shingle, and I didn't need loans to get through private undergrad.
When I took the LSAT, I decided that I would only go to law school if I got a 164 or higher. I got a 168, and things worked out well. But law school isn't for everyone, and there's no shame in admitting you just weren't good enough. To quote Judge Smails, "the world needs ditch diggers too."
Ok two things:
(1) I didn't do so well on my LSAT. Went to a T2, did really well, transferred to a T14, and got a biglaw job. So LSAT can suck it.
(2) Why is Elie the worst poster ever?
Why is this a topic at ATL????? Come on - this is a site for lawyers (and maybe some hanger on law students) - we have already taken the LSAT - who cares???? We are in the middle of the biggest financial crisis of our generation - and you are writing about garbage. LAT HELP!!!!