Thelen Associates:
English M*therF%$#*r Do You Speak It?
If there are Thelen associates that are not actively trying to get another job, if there are "incoming" Thelen first years who are waiting for "concrete answers" from the firm: this is your last warning. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200, just remember that your closest exit might be behind you.
This morning the Recorder sounded the latest alarm bell:
While Thelen is looking for firms willing to pick up various pieces, a core group may choose to stick together, and Thelen partners are meeting on a weekly basis to discuss their options, said the partner, who spoke on condition of anonymity.
The Nixon Peabody merger is off. All the white knights Pollyanna sees on the horizon are actually scavengers looking to pick up useful pieces.
More alarmist rhetoric and mixed metaphors after the jump.
Whether or not Thelen can actually survive should be totally irrelevant to current associates, because at this point doing everything you can to secure another job is clearly the smartest option. If you get another offer, you'll have two options if Thelen is able to get out of this death spin. The one thing that the Heller experience should teach people is that partners survive and move on. Associates are on their own.
You can bury your head in the sand and try to ride it out:
At least some associates have been assured they could move with partners, a lawyer close to the firm and a legal consultant said.
But I can't imagine that the previous statement would actually inspire confidence with any associate. "Assured they could move," what does that even mean?
From what we are hearing, lots of associates are already reading the writing on the wall. We're being told that the market is flooded with Thelen resumes. People are leaving:
When the Brown merger took place, Thelen announced that the combined firm would be home to 630 lawyers. The firm now has 417, according to its Web site. Thelen has lost more than 100 lawyers since March, not including the 26 associates who were laid off that month. About 50 partners have left the firm this year.
But at this point, every associate should be aggressively pursuing other options.
Don't confuse loyalty with denial.
Thelen Looks to Parcel Out Sections, Core Group May Stick Together [Law.com]
Earlier: Prior ATL coverage of Thelen
(209) Comments
poopy post
holy crap i'm probably 2nd
Another place nervous t-10 1L won't get a job.
-Confident 2L
I love this sentence in the article: "Thelen has lost more than 100 lawyers since March, not including the 26 associates who were laid off that month." Either the author is being kind to Thelen ("Only 100 lawyers left since March; the associates don't really count") or is being condescending to the associates ("The associates aren't really lawyers yet, so we don't need to count them.").
Wow, Elie...could you be any more melodramatic?
Get a job, hippie!
What's the core group? Attorneys with no particular specialty?
7
First line: "Dissolution has not been formally discussed."
Murder Death Kill! Murder Death Kill!
A message to the those remaining "loyal" Thelen associates:
Most of you will not be going with a partner to another firm, much like many of the Heller associates who have been recently abandoned by their departing partners did not get the chance to graze on greener pastures. You will be jobless soon. You will discover that the wages of "loyalty" are poverty and unemployment. In this market, you will be out of work for a long time. You will be poor. You will suffer. A lot.
But there is cause for us to celebrate Thelen's failure. You will learn from your foolish mistake. You will learn that you should not be so "loyal" in the future. After a long time has passed, you will eventually find a new job. At this new job, when you see the firm getting into trouble, you will not be so stupid as to stick around. You will get out at the first sign of trouble. You will have learned your lesson. When stupid associates finally learn to think for themselves, we all win.
Get ready for it, Thelen associates, the end is coming soon.
What "other options"? Partners with books will have options but what firms are really hiring associates right now?
... I would imagine {read hope} that everyone at Thelen (partners/associates/staff) are shoring up personal exit plans.
You IDIOTS!!!
I'm the FIRST to say:
F
I
R
S
T
Or, 4, you pointless troll, it is meant to give you a tally of attorneys who fled in pursuit of their own best interests, rather than having been forcibly ejected by management. And it reminds you of those layoffs, as another data point in discussing Thelen's health.
If you're going to stir up pointless shit, correct Elie's grammar some more. That never gets old.
Wow, 11. Somebody spit in your morning coffee? Maybe youtwoke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. What a completely insensitive post. There is certainly no cause to celebrate what's going on at Thelen. I can't believe I'm even taking the time to respond to this.
Taking associates rarely happens and, if it does, happens for a very select few that the partner *needs*. An IP partner may need to take some people with technical backgrounds, or perhaps another partner might need to take an associate that a major client really likes and wants to keep. But, all in all, firms on the whole are either experiencing, or expecting, a slow down. Thus, if a firm picks up a partner, part of the strategy is to use that partner's work to keep current associates busy--not bring on yet more associates and worry about having enough work.
Core group = copy jockeys.
Somebody please feed Ellie some chicken fried turkey before he has another attack.
Where's LAT?? I miss Lat. This blog has now officially hit ground zero.
Elie suxxxxxx
20: ground zero??? ground zero??? Did you honestly just say that???
I lost a brother on 9-11-01 (uptown). Have some respect!
I love how one of the commenters on last nite's Katten post called this story and how Ellie's lazy ass would post this ... it's amusing.
Why would anybody have stayed at Thelen this long? Is the job market that bad that they couldn't find other jobs? If I were hiring an attorney, I would pass on recent Thelen departures because they were dumb to stay so long. They can't be that good as attorneys.
20 here. Sorry, 22. I didn't mean the term in the 9-11 sense, but I apologize. Didn't mean to be insensitive. I'm sorry for your loss and I won't use it again.
24, it's easy to say those things now. I understand your sentiment, but for quite a while many people thought Thelen would find a strong merger partner. Others (with more inside information) believed (and some still do) that Thelen will (despite really bad press coverage) actually pull out of this alive. If they make it to the end of the year, I (despite my ivy league education and v10 status) actually think they'll come out alive too.
TTThelen = MysTTTal
too melodramatic? tell that to last year's thelen summers
What ARE last year's summers to do? Who's hiring new associates right now??
15 Thelen partners to Jones Day
15 Thelen partners to Jones Day
22- Let's Roll you Bald Asshole.
11 is right on. Don't fear the Reaper kiddies. You stayed on the deck too long listening to the band play. Your partners are on a life boat while you wait for the smokestack to hit you ala Fabrizio.
22:
Really? You're going to get worked up over that???
Newsflash:
"Ground Zero" is a term which does not necessarily have anything to do with the WTC/9-11. It's shitty that you lost your brother, and I'm sorry for that, but I lost half my family in the Holocaust, and you don't see me flying off the handle when someone says "Nazi" or "Concentration Camp." 9/11 was 7 YEARS AGO.
Do you want them to change the police emergency number too? I mean come on dude, the WTC does not have a monopoly on "ground zero-ism."
u
stellatto can become the next kerouac
Thank you 32.
-22
34: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!!! THANKS!
-22
20/25/34 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let's_roll
Second to last paragraph.
-32
My balls... let me show you them.
I heard some of the Thelen associates might be joining the prestigious "National" firm Pepper Hamilton due to their national bonus structure. Major upgrade if they do.
Maybe Thelen should merge with Heller so they could get a deal on bankruptcy attorneys fees......
Just a thought.
http://www.evilesq.com
PepperHamilton will be gone by next year too, just like the 6 pies on the window sill of Ellie's neighbor.
Balls Deep
Wow, not a single post by a Thelen associate. They must have just given up. It would be interesting to here some color about the environment in the various offices about now. It must be depressing.
This makes me all wonder how stupid my classmates were 4-5 years ago in law school when they were selecting big law firms. They all choose the biggest, most prestigious places possible and now in this crap economy it just makes you realize that no place in indestructible. People in government jobs have more security than big law firm associates. I know I could be canned at anytime if my firm gets fu-ked by this massive downturn. But f-k me, i don't really even like being a lawyer. I just do it because (1) I love the money and (2) I can't do anything else and still make even half of what I make now. Sad but true. I think this is the same rationale for staying in big law for thousands of associates. F-k us all.
Guys at my high school would...
Oh screw it.
This post is so bad, and the title so randomly annoying, that it just speaks for itself. Not even FRAT STUD can make it amusing.
Pepper Hamilton??? What are you kidding me? That firm hired like 1/2 of their summers last year, I heard they are dumping there satellite offices too, maybe they should join Thelen on the unemployment line
47 = PepperHamilTTTon Troll
If you don't know the difference between "their" and "there" you should hop right on the back of the unemployment line with fat ass MysTTTal and the rest of the GULCers and HofsTTTra grads.
PepperHamilton will be gone by next year too, just like the 6 pies on the window sill of Ellie's neighbor.
Balls Deep
24- here are some reasons why associates likely have stayed at Thelen:
1) they are working for a partner that they like, and that they hope will take them with them if they leave (and other prospects don't look great);
2) they were legitimately hoping the merger would work out, and now that it hasn't and the market is tanking further, they are having trouble finding something new;
3) they have been looking for other possibilities, but those are moving slowly (e.g. some small firms, most government agencies);
4) they have an offer in their back pocket, but are sticking around in case Thelen pulls itself out;
5) inertia and uncertainty and they are still getting paid.
Thanks, 50. Finally a rational and meaningful post.
Have the banks pulled Thelen's credit lines yet?
50: Reason number 5 (inertia) is the only one that I buy. No Thelen associates could have had any reasonable hope that the merger was going to happen after the BRS partner departures. They should have jumped then, at the latest.
That inertia comes at a high price. This failure will hurt Thelen associates. Partners won't be able to take very many associates with them, nobody else is hiring, and if they are hiring, they will wonder why they should hire a Thelen associate that was abandoned by his or her own Thelen partner that he or she used to work with. These people could be looking for a long time.
22: Uptown? WTC was downtown. Did he die from something else?
No way any Thelen associates is sitting on an offer, 50. Not for very long anyway. That's BS. In this market, an offer is a take or leave it affair. There is no "let me think about it" going on for Thelen associates or pretty much anyone else.
GULC's are flooding the in boxes of recruiters everywhere. Hooverville is now renamed GULCITY.
UVA2L
WTF is Pepper Hamilton, is that a firm for kids who ride the short bus?
Maybe Thelen associates can find gainful employment at WILDMAN HARROLD.
Maybe Thelen associates can find gainful employment at WILDMAN HARROLD.
55:
I am. I know at least one other associate who is as well.
NEWSFLASH to 60: What are you waiting for? Thelen is dead. Maybe you and your friend should accept those other offers, pronto.
Since you are an insider, how many layoffs are taking place now? Any staff left? Thelen paralegals must be nearly extinct.
as to point (1) raised by 50, that's not a *good* reason to stick around in this economy. partner might love you and want to take you with him/her, but chances are good that whether they land won't let him/her. my firm just took on a bunch of former heller partners. the idea is that they'll provide work for the associates the firm already has who don't have enough work, not add MORE associates without enough work to the fold. if you've got an offer elsewhere, my opinion is that you're better off taking it even if its not great and working there for, say, a year. a year in which the partner you like so much will hopefully have landed somewhere better, built up enough capital and brought in enough work and the economy will have changed, and so when you call up and ask if s/he can bring you over, the firm will say "yes".
44: What's the point for us Thelen associates to post? We don't have much info and are just playing wait and see. Plus there is no need to respond to any childish comments here, especially any comments that refers to the firm as "TTThelen."
24, the job market's just that bad. Associates from HYS with clerkships may do fine, but a lot of associates who don't have in demand niche practices or top credentials are screwed unless a partner brings them with them to a new firm.
Damn, now Thelen went full retard. Everyone knows you never go full retard (except for maybe GULC).
TTT 2 the Rig Palin
61 is right. The market is teeming with Thelen resumes that are just floating in the toilet of this stagnant economy. Take the offer, move on. To everything, turn, turn, turn.
Damn, 63, is Thelen management still stonewalling the associates? Seems pointless since everybody knows what the score is now. But its a sure sign that management is going to screw the associates like Heller management is. What doesn't the firm just try to help place associates elsewhere?
Agree that there are lot of childish comments.
67: Pretty much. You'd think at this point we'd get weekly meetings every Friday or something with some updates, but nothing. Some partners talk directly to associates, but not office-wide which is a problem. Also there are many partner meetings so we know things are happening, we just aren't kept in the loop. Granted we don't need to be told about everything, but at this point we should have weekly status reports, which we don't.
I am so sorry for you, 68. I was at a firm that broke up (not Heller). Right before the end, firm leaders stopped communicating. Associates were totally in the dark. That is a very, very bad sign. Good luck.
68 here again. Some partners will be able to take groups over as they have big cases that require the same people to be working on it. For those associates, however, I'd worry when those big cases were over (even if it was several years later), because then they could be expendable.
This is especially true for IP lit. Some major patent litigations, you need the same associates because it will take too long to get different associates up to speed on the case and technology.
68 here again. Some partners will be able to take groups over as they have big cases that require the same people to be working on it. For those associates, however, I'd worry when those big cases were over (even if it was several years later), because then they could be expendable.
This is especially true for IP lit. Some major patent litigations, you need the same associates because it will take too long to get different associates up to speed on the case and technology.
68: Wait a minute, why are you complaining about the lack of updates from managment? Didn't Steve O'Neal just send the associates that real nice email telling everyone to have a great weekend? That was informative. What more can you expect? You should be grateful that Steve O cares about your leisure time. You may have more of it soon.
Thelen must be the most incompetently managed firm out there.
72: This is 68. No need to throw out sarcasm. And the Steve O'Neal email was to SF, nobody else. Not in SF so I cannot comment on how things are in SF.
Didn't Lapping and Heisse inform folks at the meeting a few weeks ago that the firm's bank made Thelen draft a plan of dissolution and, in fact, that plan had been drafted? That doesn't square with this quote from the Recorder article:
"Dissolution has not been formally discussed, that source added."
Hi Everyone
This is Steve O'neal yall have a nice weekend!!
62, good point. I imagine many firms with slow associates wouldn't be too excited about a Thelen partner bringing associates with them.
The only reason Thelen associates are still there is because they have nowhere to go. The job market for laterals other than in ppecialities like energy law and regulatory antitrust law is sloooooowwww...
Wow, the quality of this place has really dropped: 1) when it became all corporate; and 2) when Lat stopped being the primary poster. We at Thelen know what's up, and an idiotic post followed by idiotic comments is just the normal amateur crap we expect from ATL these days. It's sad.
"It would be interesting to here some color about the environment in the various offices about now. It must be depressing."
Gee, Captain Obvious--ya think?
And for all those people telling Thelan associates to "get out now"--get out to WHERE? There are no jobs out there for them. Most probably started circulating resumes months ago, and should continue doing so, but it's not like being less "loyal" would have gotten them a job any quicker. Anybody still there is still there because they have no other choice, not out of misguided loyalty.
77: Apparently you at Thelen don't know what is up because managment won't talk to you. See post 68 by one of your colleagues.
61:
Because I have options that I like better, that include people I truly enjoy practicing with, and am secure enough in them that I'm willing to wait for them to shake out.
As for layoffs - none, at the moment (we had our big staff layoffs earlier in the year, which should have been the first sign to anyone without backup plans to start making them). And a lot of the paralegals who survived the cut then left voluntarily (I know that in NY lit, they fired one paralegal because they thought they were overstaffed - then watched as two of the remaining three walked out the door in rapid succession). I wouldn't expect staff layoffs at this point; either the firm will find a suitor for various offices (in which case the acquiring firm will decide which staff to retain), or (unlikely, I know) it will survive somehow, or (most likely, given the reports) staff will be let go as part of a dissolution.
71:
If the big case lasts a few years, by that time those "Thelen associates" will be full fledged "New Firm LLP" associates and (at worst) no more expendable than any other associate there, unless they managed to only work on that one case since joining the new firm (which would be myopic).
WTF is Pepper Hamilton, is that a firm for kids who ride the short bus?
Elie MysTTTal couldn't write to save his life. This is long cliche, but ATL sucks ass now.
Lat: Wake up and FIRE ELIE!
Elie MysTTTal couldn't write to save his life. This is long cliche, but ATL sucks ass now.
Lat: Wake up and FIRE ELIE!
Elie MysTTTal couldn't write to save his life. This is long cliche, but ATL sucks ass now.
Lat: Wake up and FIRE ELIE!
Elie MysTTTal couldn't write to save his life. This is long cliche, but ATL sucks ass now.
Lat: Wake up and FIRE ELIE!
80,
I think it's myopic at best to stick with Thelen at this point.
Get out while you can, with your balls and pride intact.
~In House Counsel
(And, no, we're not hiring.)
Elie MysTTTal couldn't write to save his life. This is long cliche, but ATL sucks ass now.
Lat: Wake up and FIRE ELIE!
Elie MysTTTal couldn't write to save his life. This is long cliche, but ATL sucks ass now.
Lat: Wake up and FIRE ELIE!
Elie MysTTTal couldn't write to save his life. This is long cliche, but ATL sucks ass now.
Lat: Wake up and FIRE ELIE!
68 is an idiot or 68 would know that the "have a good weekend email" didn't just go to SF.
What are incoming associates supposed to do? Seriously.
91, we're screwed. How is that still unclear?
91, we're screwed. How is that still unclear?
91: What the incoming associates supposed to do? The first step involves bending over. You figure it out from there.
Yes, 92/93, obviously we're screwed. That much is exceedingly clear. But what now? Nobody is hiring people in our position. Does anyone have useful advice for us?
95,
Wasn't there a company that specialized in providing staff attorneys that was profiled a while ago? Xerion or Spherion or something like that. Perhaps you could investigate that.
Yeah, you're screwed. The true test is whether you recognize it or not. If you don't, you're not going to lift your finger to investigate temp attorney work.
Here's what some have done:
(1) Find a smaller firm
(2) Work for the government
(3) Enroll in school again
(4) Get hourly work from a partner that has left that needs staffing for a case
I'm not sure there are many other options other than waiting tables or selling tickets at a movie theater.
As one of the associates who was terminated in March, I was given a hefty severance package and then walked directly into a new and better position. I wonder if any of the current associates will be given severance packages? LOL
Talk about sweet vindication!!
96 is right, 91. You are going to have to do a stint of temp atty work for a year or two to ride out this market. That may be unpleasant, but that is your only option, other than staying unemployed.
98, just make sure not to f**k up like you did at Thelen so you don't get fired again. It would suck to lose 2 jobs in 1 year.
98, just make sure you don't f**k up like you did at Thelen. It would suck to be fired from 2 jobs in 1 year.
98,
Being a Walmart greeter is not a "new and better position."
To the readers of this once interesting blog, it might help the Thelen associates who are too stupid to find anything outside the firm if you provided some tips and hints where to look for jobs... as long as it's not that of #98.
I second the sweet vindication!!!
A message to the those remaining "loyal" Thelen associates:
Most of you will not be going with a partner to another firm, much like many of the Heller associates who have been recently abandoned by their departing partners did not get the chance to graze on greener pastures. You will be jobless soon. You will discover that the wages of "loyalty" are poverty and unemployment. In this market, you will be out of work for a long time. You will be poor. You will suffer. A lot.
But there is cause for us to celebrate Thelen's failure. You will learn from your foolish mistake. You will learn that you should not be so "loyal" in the future. After a long time has passed, you will eventually find a new job. At this new job, when you see the firm getting into trouble, you will not be so stupid as to stick around. You will get out at the first sign of trouble. You will have learned your lesson. When stupid associates finally learn to think for themselves, we all win.
Get ready for it, Thelen associates, the end is coming soon.
91 here. This blog is nearly useless. With the exception of a few helpful commenters (which I appreciate) most of you have no sympathy for anyone in my situation. I just worked my ass off to graduate from a top 15 law school. I had offers all over the place and chose to go toThelen. The firm is getting bad press now, but I had an amazing summer there. The reason I chose Thelen was for the people who work there. They're some of the most dynamic and intelligent people I've met. I had a summer full of good people and good work. I'm deeply saddened by this situation and honestly have nowhere to go. My contacts at the firm can't help me now. Some of you have it good, but for those of us who are having a rough time maybe you could try some sympathy and good/useful advice. Thanks.
105, what school?
Since when have Heller partners not taken associates with them? Last I checked, the 14 IP partners turned into 52 attorneys total. I realize the ATL echo chamber believes certain things, but I encourage you all to question the assumptions.
91: You will just have to temp for a little while. Lots of attorneys do it. I realize that you may not have planned on a temp job being your first job out of a top 15 school, but some of your classmates are in the same boat. You wil be ok. I think you should call a temp staffing firm right away.
91: You will just have to temp for a little while. Lots of attorneys do it. I realize that you may not have planned on a temp job being your first job out of a top 15 school, but some of your classmates are in the same boat. You wil be ok. I think you should call a temp staffing firm right away.
100:
You must be one of the many bitter current-but-soon-to-be former Thelen associate suffering from severance envy! I too was one of the March terminations. Obviously I did not "f**k up" - don't you get it, Thelen as a firm was f**ked up (the current facts prove that point) and I stopped caring about the firm, the work and the jackasses for whom I worked after I was f**ked over too many times by management that had no clue (the current facts prove that point as well). I have no worries about being fired from my current job (yes I too am currently gainfully employed LOL) and will continue to gleefully sit on the sidelines watching Thelen go down in flames.
100:
You must be one of the many bitter current-but-soon-to-be former Thelen associate suffering from severance envy! I too was one of the March terminations. Obviously I did not "f**k up" - don't you get it, Thelen as a firm was f**ked up (the current facts prove that point) and I stopped caring about the firm, the work and the jackasses for whom I worked after I was f**ked over too many times by management that had no clue (the current facts prove that point as well). I have no worries about being fired from my current job (yes I too am currently gainfully employed LOL) and will continue to gleefully sit on the sidelines watching Thelen go down in flames.
100:
You must be one of the many bitter current-but-soon-to-be former Thelen associate suffering from severance envy! I too was one of the March terminations. Obviously I did not "f**k up" - don't you get it, Thelen as a firm was f**ked up (the current facts prove that point) and I stopped caring about the firm, the work and the jackasses for whom I worked after I was f**ked over too many times by management that had no clue (the current facts prove that point as well). I have no worries about being fired from my current job (yes I too am currently gainfully employed LOL) and will continue to gleefully sit on the sidelines watching Thelen go down in flames.
110, you should share your name with everyone so we can know who to look to in defining professionalism and maturity. As was said, make sure you don't f**k up again, whatever the "reason" for your attitude.
91/105 here. Sorry, but I'm not comfortable disclosing my school on this forum. Do temp agencies even hire new attorneys?
91/105: If you some of the "most intelligent and dynamic" people you ever met were Thelen attorneys, then you must have led a very sheltered life as a recluse in rural West Virginia before you summered at Thelen. That firm is filled to the gills with idiots. Look at the dredges that can't find new employment, look at the management, for chrissakes, like Steve "have a great weekend" O Neal. What an assh*le. Next time, if there is a next time for you, pick a real firm to work for. Last summer the problems were already plain at Thelen. You have no excuse for picking them.
98 - that's sh*tty. Why delight in the misfortune of former co-workers, the vast majority of whom had nothing to do with the decision to lay you off? If things are so great for you now, why so bitter? Easy to see why you were one of the first to go.
91/105/114,
Temp agencies gladly hire new attorneys fresh out of law school. Use that to earn some money while looking for something better. Use your contacts in law school and perhaps your fellow Thelen associates. Network. You know the drill.
Failing that, you might want to look into jobs in London or Dubai. Being willing to relocate enhances your job prospects.
115, I wish I could list some things about my background on this site without implicating myself, but I can't. That said, I have a varied and long professional background and an ivy league degree. I've met plenty of intelligent and dynamic people in my professional life, and the attorneys I met at Thelen rank high among them. You're clearly bitter about something, but it's sad that you've resorted to dissing people you don't even know on a blog. It's easy for you and others to now say that i should have known better. Hindsight is 20/20.
110 is laughing all the way to the bank and he is justified. It always amazes me that associates continue to believe the partners whom they work for are going to protect them and care for them. Hard lesson to learn, but the last thing you should do when your firm is on its way down, is to sit back and think that one of the partners you work for is going to put food on your table. Maybe 110's work was bad, maybe it wasn't -- but the fact is 110 got a severance package, and has a job on top of it. 110 wins. Game over.
Seems to me the only reason you would say you were at a top 15 law school as opposed to a t-14 is because you are at UCLA!
Ok, I'll narrow it down one time. T-15 on the east coast. Not UCLA. Now I have to get back to my moping. Life sucks.
Ok, I'll narrow it down one time. T-15 on the east coast. Not UCLA. Now I have to get back to my moping. Life sucks.
UCLA's #16.
UCLA's #16.
106, obviously the school ranked 15th.
It's not 15th either!! I'm not telling you any more. I'm too sad and distraught.
He's not from the school ranked #15, that is for sure. I think he'd get his ass kicked there for talking like he does:
"I wish I could list some things about my background on this site without implicating myself, but I can't. That said, I have a varied and long professional background and an ivy league degree. I've met plenty of intelligent and dynamic people in my professional life, and the attorneys I met at Thelen rank high among them. "
119 is complelely correct. Partners will not look out for you. Partners that have insufficient business, like the vast majority of Thelen partners, cannot look out for associates because they cannot afford to bring them along to new firms. However, Partners with limited business will readily lie to associates about bringing associates along to new firms. Why? Because to tell the truth would cause the associates to quit, thereby leaving the partner to do all his or her remaining work, and because telling the associate the truth would reveal to the other partners that he or she has little business. Thus, they will lie to you. Thelen associates should take any assurances with several grains of salt.
119 is complelely correct. Partners will not look out for you. Partners that have insufficient business, like the vast majority of Thelen partners, cannot look out for associates because they cannot afford to bring them along to new firms. However, Partners with limited business will readily lie to associates about bringing associates along to new firms. Why? Because to tell the truth would cause the associates to quit, thereby leaving the partner to do all his or her remaining work, and because telling the associate the truth would reveal to the other partners that he or she has little business. Thus, they will lie to you. Thelen associates should take any assurances with several grains of salt.
119 is complelely correct. Partners will not look out for you. Partners that have insufficient business, like the vast majority of Thelen partners, cannot look out for associates because they cannot afford to bring them along to new firms. However, Partners with limited business will readily lie to associates about bringing associates along to new firms. Why? Because to tell the truth would cause the associates to quit, thereby leaving the partner to do all his or her remaining work, and because telling the associate the truth would reveal to the other partners that he or she has little business. Thus, they will lie to you. Thelen associates should take any assurances with several grains of salt.
Dead meat. It's like the Titanic. The music plays while the ship sinks.
127, I'm not a he. No wonder you never get laid.
The people I know at Thelen are, in fact, amazing. The situation is out of our hands. Now maybe you'll try being nice.
119:
110 is a she and she agrees with you!! I like your use of the phrase "game over." Thelen was exactly that - a big game, in the worst way. And I do like that, in the end, I did win. I may be gloating, but my ego will never be as large as Steve O'Neal's or those selfish partners who myopically left him at the helm of a sinking ship stupidly hoping he'd somehow take Thelen to the "next" level, whatever that means.
And for those of you upset about these types of comments, get over yourself. There is a reason this website bills itself as "A Legal Tabloid." Stop whinning and start looking for a new job, not surfing the web wasting time. The market's getting worse by the minute...
Signed 110
110/133, you made me cry :( I want to die
What happened to Thelen anyway? Poor management? Too much reliance on borrowing to cover payroll? Culture clash? Loss of clients after the merger? Not enough billables? Lack of "top talent"?
If you get fired, you might want to investigate getting a sandestin.
I wish I was above the law.
119/128, what a sad commentary about the people with which you work. Of course, Thelen partners aren't stupid enough to promise anyone a slot anywhere. Of course, every Thelen associate knows that s/he is ultimately responsible for doing what's best for him/herself. And of course, there are some Thelen partners who couldn't give a damn about the ultimate well-being of their associates and/or staff, except to the extent it serves their own practices.
But you're very wrong to suggest that all of the partners are that way. Finding a scenario that will ensure a soft landing for the greatest number of people (partners, associates, and staff) is foremost on the mind of a significant number of people here. The leaders that have emerged in this entire process (not Firm management) are people who care deeply about what will happen their colleagues, and their efforts to minimize what will be inevitable casualties are to be commended, not mocked. And regardless of whether we end up at the same place or if our paths diverge, I will always be proud to have been affiliated with these people and with this firm.
138,
Wow, has your skin turned pink yet from all the Thelen kool aid you've drunk?
It is every man for himself. Anyone pretending (or lying as part of a PR effort) otherwise is doing himself and others a serious disservice.
Get out while you have your dignity, balls, and pride intact.
Methinks 110/133 ended up at TTT and is just bitter.
I'm just guessing that all the "get out while you can" people are probably law students who weren't able to get jobs at OCIP? Amirite?
Answering someone who is functionally illiterate ("Amirite") is generally not a good idea, but I'll take a gander at it ...
Get out while you can.
Know it, study it, learn it.
You'll be happier in the long run.
~In House Counsel
(no, we're not hiring)
135: check check check check check check check
135: check check check check check check check
People, the days of "get out while you can" are long over, at least as far as Thelen associates are concerned. Current Thelen associates just flat out sat on their asses too long and now its just too late. Most Thelen associates and staff will be unemployed soon. The best you can hope for in this market is a temp gig. Get your shine box, Thelen associates.
What happened to Thelen anyway? Poor management? Too much reliance on borrowing to cover payroll? Culture clash? Loss of clients after the merger? Not enough billables? Lack of "top talent"?
140 - you still don't get it. Who cares if 110 ended up at a "TTT"? And in this economy, what is a TTT anyway? She has a job that pays -- which is more than the Thelen kids will be able to say in a few more weeks. 110 also has a severance package to boot. If anyone is bitter, I think its you -- 110 made out perfectly and I tip my hat to her. Bravo 110, enjoy watching the sinking.
138 -- its great you like your co-workers - but, I'd take a few days off and hit the pavement if I was in your shoes -- but what do I know?
119 (Maximus)
Just to clarify, there's no talk of dissolution. Just downsizing. The speculation on this board has gotten out of control. Of course the firm is having problems, but people who aren't in the know are posting here pretending that they do. Anonymity has pros and cons.
Can a "downsized" model work? Isn't every other non top 5 firm trying to get bigger and bigger rather than smaller?
138 is an insider.
139 is not.
138 has it exactly right.
139 does not.
91/105/114 - thanks for the kind words. Wish I had more to offer you, but here's some advice from an insider, in addition to the options listed above:
By now, it's possible that many of the partners or associates you worked with have left Thelen. Google them - all of them - and find out. For any who have left, e-mail them. Remind them who you are, update them on your situation, and ask if they have a minute to talk. If they say yes, call them and ask them for advice. Ask them for an introduction to the firm's recruiting coordinator (not the hiring partner, the recruiting coordinator). Tell the associate/partner and the recruiting coordinator that you'll do whatever it takes to get your foot in the door, even if it means working in a department you don't like, even if it means working as a paralegal, even if it means coming on as a 2009 summer associate, if there's any chance at all that it will lead to full time employment starting in 2009 or 2010. Present it to them as a win-win: they get the services of a bar-passed lawyer who comes highly reccommended by one of their valued new lateral hires, at a discount rate, without any recruitment expense at all, and who - if they do hire you full time - will be starting as a first year with the experience of a second year (at least), and you get a foot in the door.
It probably won't work many places, but its better than cold calling or even asking someplace you have contacts to take you on as an additional (read, unbudgeted) 1st year associate.
135: ... it comes down to Partners doing what they thought was best for themselves and their practices instead of the stability/longevity of Thelen. Sort of like if you went into business with Joe plumber and, after a year or so, decided to take all your big clients and the employees you thought were the best over to Joe Plumber's competitor. Now poor Joe Plumber is trying to pay essentially the same amount of bills with just his small clients.
In this economy the smaller firms seem to be doing better than the large firms. Maybe they're actually on to something.
115 - you are an ass. Problems at Thelen were not obvious (at least on the West Coast) until the Weitzel group left mid-summer. There are still many very good attorneys at Thelen, who are still there for various reasons. Many (I hope all) will find new jobs, many at "real" firms, whatever those are. I agree that firm management has handled things disastrously. But that doesn't mean that everyone at Thelen is an idiot, any more than all Americans are idiots because W is our President. Maybe when you grow up you will come to understand that not everything has a single, simple explanation, as much as you might want it to.
First to ID the Pulp Fiction quote.
(not sure what it has to do with the post, but it sure is fun to shout it out like Samuel L. Jackson)
...What?
154 --- guy eating a burger, SLJ says "Do you think Marcelis is a Bitch" - to which the response was "What?"
Mmm-mmmm. That is a tasty burger.
what aint no country i ever heard of
legal aid and various public defenders' offices are always looking for good lawyers and you'd get morality points too.
good luck to all the Thelen associates. you're in our thoughts and prayers.
It ain't over till it's over.
Do they speak English in What?
91/105/114 - Listen to 150 and to the other constructive advice here. And just know that people here regret the position that last year's summers and the erstwhile incoming first years are in every bit as much as we regret the position the firm is in. We know very well that your summer classes were first-rate. And were I in a position to bring anyone along (and not in the position of hoping someone will bring me along), I'd gladly do so.
158 - Thanks.
161 =
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm2906234112/nm0214430
162: Sorry, but thanks for playing
148, the firm is in default under its credit line due to the loss of partners and the firm has drafted a plan of dissolution at the request of the bank. How can you say that there is no talk of dissolution?
why are people who don't work at Thelen so concerned with what is happening there? Are you current jobs/life really that boring/meaningless that you feel the need to belittle other people?!?
What is up with SF firms? THey keep bustin. Thelen dissed me at OCI - I may have gone there too - it was a great place with a ton of cool people.
Why do we choose the big firms that we choose. 50% prestige 50% you like the people. I ended up at a much more prestigious firm with people I liked a lot. But I remember really loving everyone at Thelen.
You cannot knock some associate for the firm they chose. Unless you got an Irell, Munger or Latham - (here in LA) you generally just went with the firm you liked the most.
This sucks for all involved.
158: SF needs more d.a.s to put the bad guys in jail, not keep 'em. See, e.g., Ramos.
164 - Thelen isn't in default (yet?).
166 - glad you found a place with people you like. In the end, that's what separates those of us who love being attorneys from those of us who hate it. Where do you work?
168-Wrong. Thelen is in default. The bank is working with the firm, but there is absolutely no question that the loss of the Weitzel group and other partner groups triggered a technical default. The partners will admit this if you ask them and Heisse and Lapping even admitted that the bank made the firm draft a dissolution plan as a result.
@ 169 - glad you think you know so much, being an outsider to the situation... currently, there is no dissolution plan. everyone (partners, leadership) is still trying to figure out what they're going to do. although this is similar to a bank run, it has nothing to do with the banks.
170, I'm not an outsider, I'm an associate in the SF office. I was at the meeting a few weeks ago where Heisse and Lapping discussed the China group defection and also admitted to everyone in the room that the firm had been forced to draft a dissolution plan by the bank. Maybe you missed that meeting.
171, or maybe you're one of those people let go in March and someone who was in that "meeting" told someone who told you. It's like that game gossip. I know that's the way you really want it to be, but the fact remains that just isn't the case... yet. Stop bitterly spreading your misleading info like you actually know something and get back to work.
172, if I was let go in March what work would I have to get back to?
Were you at the meeting? I was. I heard Rich say that the firm had been forced to draft a plan of dissolution. If you were at the meeting, tell me what you heard. If you weren't at the meeting, then shut the f up.
Here's my proof of the meeting...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Lapping, Rich
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 1:26 PM
To: SF ATTORNEYS & STAFF
Subject: Brief Meeting
John Heisse and I will conduct a brief meeting this afternoon to update associates and staff on the status of merger discussions.
One meeting at will start at 4 pm and another at 4:30 pm - both in MP-2.
Rich
oh, stop being so bitter 173
Oh, get your head out of the sand, 174. Telling the truth isn't being bitter.
Maybe this is why firms are going under - everyone who should be working or doing something of value seems to be spending hours putting forth their useless opinions on these blogs.
Maybe this is why firms are going under - everyone who should be working or doing something of value seems to be spending hours putting forth their useless opinions on these blogs.
If O'Neal would ever tell us what the hell was going on we wouldn't have to be on these blogs trying to figure it out.
Stop bemoaning O'Neal's lack of communication, 178, and just start talking to the partners you know and work with. From my experience, many partners are being very candid about what's going on. And if you can't find a partner, try talking to a senior associate who might be less reticent about asking questions of partners directly.
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm2906234112/nm0214430
Wrong again, 162/180.
179 - 178 here. I am talking to partners constantly, trying to piece things together, as few of them have the whole picture either. All of them have been candid with me, and I appreciate that. Many of them know surprisingly little (and they complain about that as well). The lack of communication from the top only feeds the uncertainty and fear, accelerating the death spiral. My complaint about O'Neal has little to do with me saving my own ass (I have been working on that for a while now), and more to do with the effect upon the firm.
I see your point, 178/182. That said, any information that would come from O'Neal/Hill at this point would be like GWB's press conferences about the bailout plan: the confidence in the leadership is so far gone that we need to look to other sources of information for the real story, and hope that the emerging leaders have the ability to come up with something that achieves the least bad result for everyone involved.
Sorry for being snippy in my prior response. The uncertainty of how things will ultimately play out is getting to me, too.
-179.
183 -- 178/182 here. I agree - it is too late for management to redeem itself, unless something really, really, surprising happens. I'm in SF - where are you?
I'm not a lawyer, but I worked at Thelen for three long years and Thelen is a firm with a split personality.
The people at Thelen, the folks that do the work, are decent folks you'd be happy to hang around with on the weekend. Firm management, however, and some of the senior partners, are absolute nightmares and this is reflected in Thelen's piss poor management practices. Bad people are "leading" good people, and this is just the way of the world.
That said, the longer you remain at Thelen, the more the stench of failure clings to you. Stay to the end, and it's overpowering.
Please stop using "retard" and "short bus" insults. My son, and he's a lot kinder and probably smarter than some of you, has learning disabilities, and I don't like your attitudes.
I'm an incoming associate and I'd like a firm answer from the firm. At this point, not having an answer is making it difficult to speak with other firms as they do not want to be accused of stealing associates. If we're not starting in January, call and tell us (or be unprofessional and send a letter). If we are starting (which seems highly doubtful), confirm as much.
Incoming associate, I'm sure the Firm hasn't given an official answer because the Firm doesn't have one yet, and any tentative answers may have collateral implications on other lifeboat scenarios/negotiations going on. I also would bet that different incoming associates may end up with different answers, depending upon their office locations, practice groups, the lawyers with whom they worked, and what happens to those people. (For whatever my pure speculation is worth, I'd expect a construction associate to end up better off than a general litigator or a transactional associate.)
You certainly know enough informally to know you should be lining up other plans, but you say that other firms don't want to be accused of stealing associates. If you think this is really hampering your ability to secure another job, or if another firm has actually communicated that to you, then contact the Thelen hiring partner in your office. I have no doubt that you will receive Thelen's full blessing and encouragement to look elsewhere without having to formally withdraw your acceptance (with whatever small chance that may still carry of you actually starting in January).
Your advice is reasonable, but only moderately helpful considering two things. First, Thelen has not assigned practice groups, at least not in some offices. Second, even if Thelen gives its blessing, that does nothing to appease the concerns of other firms as they would not know that Thelen has given its consent.
187/189, have you actually encountered firms or recruiters that are worried that Thelen might take action against them for poaching an incoming associate? Because I find it hard to believe there's a firm anywhere that thinks that Thelen would be anything but relieved at this point to have its "incoming" associates find work elsewhere.
Yes, I have, hence why I said that firms have expressed concerns. I have spoken to two separate firms where this has come up.
What do people think about applying to LLM programs now so that an incoming associate would have that as a kind of backup plan for fall 2009? Better than just doing temp attorney work for more than 8 months...
Wow. Okay. Seems beyond silly for the firms to be taking that position, but okay. In that case, I'd still recommend contacting the hiring partner for your office by e-mail, explaining the situation, and asking for express authorization that you could then pass along to other firms.
Good luck to you.
187/189 - I know of at least two incoming first year associates who have taken positions with other firms. (I am sure there are more, I just know firsthand about those two. And I think everyone understands, and doesn't blame them.) If you can't get an answer from firm management (who is relatively uncommunicative and is dealing with some pretty major stuff right now), try calling the recruiting coordinator in your office, or call the partner that you most looked forward to working with.
You are saying that other firms want some sort of public announcement or express permission to poach associates, rather than just you repeating what someone has told you? That seems weird. I have gotten inquiries from a number of firms, who seem to have no such qualms.
If you can get anyone at Thelen to tell you it is okay to go elsewhere, just give the new firm their name and number. There are plenty of partners and staff who will give it their blessing even if top management doesn't.
192, an LL.M. isn't a bad idea, particularly if you're interested in doing tax. If you can get into one of the top programs (like NYU), the LL.M. will certainly add to your ultimate marketability. But the value-add of lesser programs, depending on where you got your JD, may not be worth the additional year of student loan debt.
192, I agree with 195. I will add that you could add to your options and diversity and make resume more appealing by going overseas. Germany, UK, Italy, Ireland, France and Belgium all have great programs. It will be cheaper than doing LL.M. in US, will make you stand out, and will also open Europe as an option to you to work in.
Dear TTThelanites: You have a license to practice law. Open your own office. Get yourself clients. Represent them and send them a bill. Welcome to the real world. DUH.
Is Heller Thelen still a possibility? I've got an offer from Heller and if they merge with Thelen, I'd be game on. Lots of simpaticoness there (maybe not the right word).
NYU 2L very interested.
Hey 198 - where have you been hiding? Heller went under weeks ago and no one wants Thelen. They're as good as gone as well.
Hey 198 - where have you been hiding? Heller went under weeks ago and no one wants Thelen. They're as good as gone as well.
Hey 198 - where have you been hiding? Heller went under weeks ago and no one wants Thelen. They're as good as gone as well.
Hey 198 - where have you been hiding? Heller went under weeks ago and no one wants Thelen. They're as good as gone as well.
Hey 198 - where have you been hiding? Heller went under weeks ago and no one wants Thelen. They're as good as gone as well.
Hey 198 - where have you been hiding? Heller went under weeks ago and no one wants Thelen. They're as good as gone as well.
Hey 199-204, your "Refresh" button is obviously working, but your irony meter seems to be broken.
I work at Thelen NY. While pondering my fate, I got a peculiar nagging feeling I just cannot shake. I figured I would share it for your amusement. I don't think they are going to close. There was supposed to be a partner meeting on 10/23, rumored to be about dissolution. It was postponed until next Tuesday. If they are closing, why postpone the inevitable? I have no proof at all and no insider information, but I feel that there is a core group of partners that are not going to let it go down in flames. Thelen may downsize, perhaps drastically, but I don't think it's going to close. Of course I am not foolish enough to think that will save my job in particular. Maybe. Maybe not.
As for my office in particular, I know the NY office has been the proverbial redheaded stepchild, mainly because we took on BRS, but NY has/had a lot of very good attorneys, some of them from BRS. We didn't deserve the bad rap.
So, wishful thinking or intuition? Insanity or prophecy?
We will all find out soon.
PS to 206: I am not an associate and I speak english m$^#@.
looks like another big departure...
http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1202425517320
So, no one has anything to say about loyal Steve O'Neal's defection??