sadly first

SF firms are not meant to be national firms.

another one bites the dust...

Contract attorney work isn't THAT bad the first time you actually do it.

"Officially Dissolves"?

Interesting choice of headlines considering the first sentence of the memo says the decision is up for a vote...

Very sad. Hope everyone lands decent jobs elsewhere.

Wow. They have offices near us. What a mess . . .

If you have a 401k at Thelen MOVE IT NOW!. You can move it into a qualified IRA at the same institution, just get it out from under the firm's plan. I'm no expert, but as a former Heller attorney I understand (1) that 401k assets are protected (by ERISA, but (2) the powers that be are almost going to certainly freeze the 401k accounts (you'll still have access to the account, and you can change your distribution in the account, but can't withdraw or transfer assets). Don't wait.

you betcha

Igoe to work every day and pick my toe nails.

You know what killed Heller and Thelen?

They both were located in the same office building in Los Angeles. Must be something in the air there.

In other news - Discount commercial space available in downtown Los Angeles. Chairs included - still warm.

This is what Trig-quality leadership will do to a firm.

Playing Flash games and trolling on Internet blogs while your firm dissolves does not strike me as a particularly fruitful endeavor. For one thing, it doesn't bring in the money that your firm (increasingly) needs.

~In House Counsel

"Does this mean that Ann Margaret isn't coming, sir?"

(Awkward laughter in the background)

who's next? TPW?

2 down, 98 to go...

first!!!

"Most disturbingly, Thelen apparently does not think it is obligated under federal regulations."

Why would it be disturbing that Thelen thinks one of the exceptions to 60-day notice applies? See http://www.lawmemo.com/articles/warn.htm (Failing Company Doctrine.) (Google found me that in 5 seconds.)

Maybe there are no state law exceptions.

Bill "I sit at the feet of David Graybeal" O'Brien

Just counting down the days until Thacher Proffitt dissolves...

6 - STFU. You should concern yourself with your own writing skills before criticizing others. First of all, it is an interest headline choice. And, secondly, the memo does read that the decision is up for a vote. Now, unless I'm deaf, I didn't hear the website say anything.

Firms in my highschool usually to dissolve all the time. It was no big deal.

"Most disturbingly, Thelen apparently does not think it is obligated under federal regulations."

Why would it be disturbing that Thelen thinks one of the exceptions to 60-day notice applies? See http://www.lawmemo.com/articles/warn.htm (Failing Company Doctrine.) (Google found me that in 5 seconds.)

Maybe there are no state law exceptions.

How about some milk and cookies tonight before bed kiddies ?

22 suffers from a bad case of the 'roids which tend to put him in a rotten mood (not to mention an associated rotten stench).

And of course, Thelen to....Zero!

Nice copy/paste, you chunky fat fat.

19 - yes, not under CA law.

Re 9: He's absolutely right. If you are at Thelen (or you still have a 401(k) account from formerly working there), roll your 401(k) into a Rollover IRA (at the same or another institution) NOW. At Heller, 401(k) withdrawals all got frozen about ten days into the dissolution process. Some people really needed that money to pay immediate bills.

As a SA from this past summer with no current job prospects, all I can say is f*ck!

TTThelen Associates have to be hating life. At least, they'll be able to take part in lots of document review projects.

Richard "I went to Hahvard" Green

pretzels make me thirdsty-firsty

All that prime Thelen NY office space will open up, allowing Elie to store his stock of sweet, sweet donuts at pennies on the square foot - one floor for glazed, one floor for powdered, another for jelly, no maybe half for jelly, and the other half for creullers...

May your chins be as numerous as the sands of the seashore, the stars of the sky...

30 - you can suck dick for $40 bucks a cock on the south side of chicago. HTH.

Leo Ullman is laughing.

Does this mean posters will finally stop inquiring about Thelen? ... I wonder which firm will be the next comment punching bag... any guesses?

Did the Shanhai office get the message or are they just getting word of impending doom now.

Chuck Birenbaum is laughing right now.

Not necessary to bracket and capitalize the opening of the block quote where it continues a sentence already begun outside of the quoted text. Just saying.

I'm laughing AT the Thelen associates, not WITH the associates.

You'll have a fun and close look at the intricacies of the bankruptcy process.

Happy holidays, kiddies.

F&L? any news

What about Skadden DC? Please update the Skadden DC story.

What I can't get over is how quickly the downturn has tanked some of these firms...obviously there is a lot of piss poor management going on out there. PPP at nearly a million last year but still can't hold it together during a downturn....

35, I wouldn't want to intrude on your turf...

-30

37,

My best guess is Skadden DC will go down. The only question is whether it's going to be a messy one or not.

There are partners in NY who stayed to the end even though they too could have fled. Reger and Giblin, for example. what are they doing?

Bob "I'm going to personally take responsibility to rebuild the NY corporate department" Reger

my best guess is, skadden dc will continue to frustrate those who try to TTT-ify its name by being comprised of non-T letters

Is it possible that Thelen can freeze or otherwise prevent access, rollover or liquidation of 401k investments? Did this actually happen at Heller?

44: It's probably because they took every last dime out of the firm.

What's the point of laughing at the associates. WTF makes you think you're safe 42?

50- it's the IRS who will freeze access for an accounting, which could take a year

there will be no dissolution...during CHRISTMASTIME

- santa claus

I heard a rumor that Townsend is folding soon too.

Seems odd that the partnership can continue to pay itself draws but stiff employees on their accrued vacation pay? Don't know much about fraudulent conveyance law, but that seems like it would fall in that category.

-30/45 - you wouldn't.. my mouth is too busy kissing my partner's ass (i might upgrade to reaming shortly to ensure the lifestyle i've become accustomed to). HTH

-v10 associate, aka, 35

As an aside, anyone who seeks career advice in the comments section of ATL ought to seriously reconsider such a step, esp former Thelen associates and SAs. It is rather illogical. As a reader of ATL since its inception, the comments have degenerated to a pissing contest between a bunch of 10 year olds masquerading as law students and attorneys. What is sad to me is what the comments section says about the substantive state of our profession.

401k rollover tip -- if you keep it with schwab (the administrator of the Thelen 401k) the $ can stay in the same funds you've already picked. It takes about 5 days to process.
At Brobeck they did freeze 401ks.

This bashing Elie nonsense must stop! The name calling is absurd. There is no way this blog can stay relevant if partners at V50 firms come to the site and read comments from 1L's that mirror something that a 14 year-old would write. I agree his posts need editing, but not even Lat (who had rumors around his sexuality for years) suffered this kind of immature berating.

Law students are douchebags, period. How stupid is a law student right now? How can you continue in your chosen path? Most of the posters on this site are inevitable SA's of the week. Oh, wait a minute, in two years there will be no SA programs excepting a few of the best firms. God knows, the law student douchebags that post here will not land those spots.

I don't want you to grow up. Just go away. I know there is some MTV, or Nickelback, or some other lame popular culture shit you can get involved in, just go do it.

There will be no partner profits distributions. Instead, there will be coal in your stocking. You have been bad, very bad.

- Santa Claus

Is it possible that Thelen can freeze or otherwise prevent access, rollover or liquidation of 401k investments? Did this actually happen at Heller?

MysTTTal

60 = TTT

50: Yes, Believe It; it happened.
On the ground that plan windup expenses would be prorated as a charge across all accounts.
You would still be able to shift investments (e.g, from a stock fund to a Treasuries money market fund), but not withdraw, rollover, or liquidate your account.

fried frank?

I thought Pillsbury was going down the tubes (also another SF firm) based on numbers from earlier this year. But, with the acquisition of many new practice groups from other failing firms, it would appear unlikely. Unless the acquired groups were stupid, they had to have seen something promising as far as long term health of the firm.

[steals hamburgers]

robble robble robble

"I agree his posts need editing, but not even Lat (who had rumors around his sexuality for years) suffered this kind of immature berating."

Are you suggesting that rumors about EM's sexuality would be more appropriate ? Here's one - he was last seen canoodling with a Krispy Kreme in a seedy back alley off Mott Street.

44, way to post the same comment in two different threads. And yes, I am wasting too much time on ATL to know that.

Thelen was staffed with the dregs of law schools everywhere, now they're unemployed. Balance and harmony have been restored.

raz al guhl

Lord Locke will be next. That place is a dump. What is happening in Houston is just the tip of the iceberg.

bakerbottsthunder

69 - i know funny, and that my friend, was pretty fucking funny.

and what is the dealio with the crap at the end of the memo. who gives a f### about thelen's history. it is history. the good partners left and the goons were running the show. no book of business + partner = no money.

35/57

In that case, I have a sound business plan.

Since your mom sucks cock for a quarter a dick, I can outsource her. At the $40 you suggested, that will provide me with a hefty profit. Assuming she's as good as advertised, 50+ dicks per day at $39.75 profit-per-dick comes out to ~$2000/day.

That means I can give her weekends and holidays off, while still earning more than you.

Thanks for the advice!

-30/45

Wouldn't the dissolution be official *after* the partnership votes on the recommendation?

42: They say that it takes a big man to cry. They also say that it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man. I say it only takes a reasonable man to kick the latter man in the balls.

*nervous that I'll have to suck a partners you know what to get a job in this economy*

-nervous T-10 1L

I worked at Thelen. What a terrible firm filled with rude, obnoxious people. Good riddance. I am sorry to those few nice people who have nowhere to go and were treated so poorly by this crappy place.

PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN

Next SF bets to fold: Bingham which has been doing poorly for the last year and Pilsbury which has been doing bad for at least the last two years. Who knows what will happen right. All these firms are so secretive. Just two weeks ago Thelen was claiming it was trying to survive now in the span of a few hours it's toast.

76: when the firm issues a press release announcing that dissolution is in the works, a partnership vote is a mere formality.

i'm nervous about lord locke

-nervous t-10 1L

#9. Schwab (Thelen's 401(k) provider says the following. Any thoughts on how to get around this?

Once we receive formal notification from your employer, we will mail you a Notification of Benefit Eligibility, giving you the choice to either roll your money over to an IRA or another qualified plan, take a lump sum distribution, or defer distribution until a later date. These forms will include the option of opening a Schwab IRA with Charles Schwab & Company, Inc. for completing a rollover. Upon opening a Schwab rollover IRA, you can choose from a wide variety of investment choices, including over 1400 mutual funds. Of those funds, over 1000 are in our Mutual Fund OneSource® service and have no loads or transaction fees. There is no annual fee when you open a Schwab IRA rollover account and transfer the funds from your SchwabPlan account. Other fees may apply based on holding periods or frequency of trading.

There is nothing funny about people losing their jobs. And as a second point, we are supposed to be part of a profession. Professionals hope that everyone in the community that works hard and is honest does well: at our firm and at others, and all partners, associates, and staff. Good luck to all of the employees of Thelen. We wish you well.

NOT MY BUTTONS! NOT MY GUMDROP BUTTONS!

82, would that formality be "official"?

McCarter and English. Going down in flames.

nervous, I am nervous about (1) where I am going to hide the body and (2) escaping.

I'm a newcomer to ATL; and as I have been reading through the many comments posted here each day over the last week or so, I've come to one conclusion:

LAWYERS ARE A BUNCH OF ARROGANT, OBNOXIOUS A-HOLES. You people do nothing but obsess over status and rankings and try to make yourselves seem important at the expense of others. Is there some type of direct causal effect between how much of an A-Hole you are and the higher the rank of the law school you get accepted to? There must be; and everyone posting on this board must have gone to a prestigious, highly ranked law school.

How many times did I send Elie tips that Thelen's had defaulted on its line of credit and how many times did that fat fuck refuse to investigate? Too many.

Elie should be fired for having been scooped on the easiest fucking breaking story he could have ever had.

Next SF bets to fold: Bingham which has been doing poorly for the last year and Pilsbury which has been doing bad for at least the last two years. Who knows what will happen right. All these firms are so secretive. Just two weeks ago Thelen was claiming it was trying to survive now in the span of a few hours it's toast.

To the tune of "Luca":

My name is Elie / I work at Above the Law / I'm a sweet Harvard grad / but nobody wants me here no more.

I'm a newcomer to ATL; and as I have been reading through the many comments posted here each day over the last week or so, I've come to one conclusion:

LAWYERS ARE A BUNCH OF ARROGANT, OBNOXIOUS A-HOLES. You people do nothing but obsess over status and rankings and try to make yourselves seem important at the expense of others. Is there some type of direct causal effect between how much of an A-Hole you are and the higher the rank of the law school you get accepted to? There must be; and everyone posting on this board must have gone to a prestigious, highly ranked law school.

Used to work at Lord Locke in Dallas, and they are definitely doing worse than they are letting on. Agree they might be in trouble too.

Not my BUTTONS. Not my GUM DROP BUTTONS!

90 - Actually I got a Tier 2 toilet. But hey, no one is perfect.

84: Those would be your standard options, and are just fine.

The real threat is that you have those options frozen, where you can't roll over or withdraw your 401(k) account balance.

As I said: It happened at Heller.
And someone above pointed out that it also happened in the Brobeck dissolution.

68, I'm laughing my ass off. How many displaced associates are we talking about here? Do you suppose the internets would tell me?

90 - Actually I got a Tier 2 toilet. But hey, no one is perfect.

Still an asshole though.

75 - wow, you're an adept businessman! thus, pardon me when i say that i'm quite amazed that you made the fucktarded decision to be a lawyer with no firm opportunities. great career move champ. HTH.

i will pass along your offer to my mom.

35/57

90 - Actually I got a Tier 2 toilet. But hey, no one is perfect.

Still an asshole though.

94 - it comes from the immense investment we have made in ourselves. After spending hundreds of thousands of dollars between undergrad and law school we generally consider ourselves to be better than other people. This is because we are. Please go away.

PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN PWN

9, 29, 50, 84:

Yes, they can freeze it. Yes, they have frozen it. Yes, this appears to be allowed so that an accounting of administrative overhead costs can be allocated among plan participants.

To my knowledge you cannot roll over any assets in a 401(k) until you've (1) terminated employment and (2) had the plan provider notified by your employer that you have terminated.

At Heller, it was 2 weeks between when I terminated employment and when Vanguard received the letter - the freeze went into effect during those 2 weeks, and despite the receipt of the letter of termination my 401(k) is still frozen.

So it's probably too late, since even if you quit today the firm will likely freeze the 401(k) before Schwab will be authorized to roll over your account into anything.

To the tune of "Luca":

My name is Elie / I work at Above the Law / I'm a sweet Harvard grad / but nobody wants me here no more.

So what was the whole renaming themselves as just Thelen LLP all about?

Just a gimmick to reduce the word count on upcoming filings?

105 is wrong in one respect:
You can rollover to an IRA before you have terminated. Maybe not every dollar in the account, but most of it.

Until they freeze. Which depends on how they stand with their bank. But I would assume the worst, and move as fast as you can to do the rollover. You have, at the most, days, if a freeze is coming.

94, lighten up, you person, you. These boards are the only good thing about this blog. Lawyers are a bunch of a-holes and that's what I love about them, and about myself, and about this blog. God bless America.

Listen, I rolled my thelen 401k into a Schwab IRA just a couple hours ago, on an in-kind basis (so no sales, just moved fund holdings from 401k to IRA), over the phone. Just set up an IRA rollover account through the Schwab website (as a new user), note the account number, and call Schwab and say please roll over my401K assets to my IRA. If the dissolution hasn't been voted on yet, there is probably no freeze yet. If you're going to do it, do it today/tomorrow first thing.

81, care to elaborate on Bingham and Pilsbury? What makes you say they're doing badly?

110: Good Advice.

-- 108

82: yes, that vote will make it "official" that the firm will dissolve voluntarily, as opposed to involuntarily.

But it will still be dissolved, given that the bank has taken over.

In other words, Elie has it right. Plus, if there was any doubt that the partnership would have voted "no" on dissolution, the firm would not have put out that press release. So, save your word-parsing for someone who is impressed with that sort of thing,

I, unfortunately, was a casualty of Thelen's lay-off back in March. I was in the Los Angeles office. A third floor was completed to accommodate the new staff after the merge with Brown Raysman and Steiner. Unfortunately, those offices and space was never used. I havent been able to land a new job since the layoff in March.

To all those associates in Thelen's wage and hour defense practice, I have a bitch to introduce you to. Her name is karma.

114: Hang in there. Something will come along. Best of luck.

113: Is that an official concession that you were wrong?

115, explain your beef. Were you on the other side of a wage and hour dispute with Thelen? Were you a plaintiff? Do tell.

115: what is wrong with you?

WHAT FIRMS ARE NEXT? IN SF? ELSEWHERE?

Thank you 116, it has been very difficult in the IT field to find jobs. Thank you 116.

Locke Lord Bissell

As usual, partners make sure they're covered first. THEN they let the world know that the firm is folding. Nothing worse than the way they've treated people in the past. Same 'ol, same 'ol.

115, we are all waiting to hear the story behind your comment. Please elaborate asap, some of us need to get back to work.

This is bad. The SF market is really hurting. Which SF firms will survive once the dust settles?

Locke Lord -- Woof!

124, I'm with you. Is 115 a once-defeated plaintiff's attorney who sunk years of his life into a case against Thelen, perhaps? Bah!

where are all the thelen associates? heller was all over ATL when it all went down.

Locke Lord Bissell

128 the Thelen probably have more important things on their minds than posting on a blog. Good luck everyone.

130 here, just add the word "associates" into my post. I miss sleeping.

130 - i'm sure heller people did also. maybe thelen turned off the internet...

I wonder about this a little too. I would have expected Thelen people to be all over here today.

-- ex-Heller

127, that is a possibility but I was hoping that he had worked there and left on bad terms after some scandelous incident in his office involving a bucket of whipped cream, a donkey, a migit and a box of twinkies.

I think 115 is just pointing out the irony of working in a wage practice and then getting screwed out of wages.

Here is my understanding re: the 401k issue. It is easy to set up a Rollover IRA at Schwab online, and then roll your Thelen 401k into the new IRA. Depending on what 401k funds you have invested in, the positions can be rolled over in-kind. That is to say, the positions do not have to be liquidated, but will simply be rolled over to the new IRA and there is really no "trade" at all, just a change in account holder. However, to the extent that 401k funds are invested in a fund that is NOT transferable in kind, then positions in those non-transferable funds will have to be liquidated when you do the rollover. Since mutual funds are traded/priced only once--at the end of each trading day--you need to get your liquidation/transfer order in before 3:45 pm if you want the trade to price on that same trading day; otherwise, the trade will be priced and made as of the close of trading on the next business day. NOTE: The rollover option is all or nothing, ie, you CANNOT pick and choose which funds to roll over. Hope this helps.

Locke Lord Bissell

Well well...the little underpaid Thelen legal secretary who spends her days working on her MySpace page are over.......I wonder how many firms are looking for a good assistant who spends hours a day working on her blog?

122/129/137 - no one cares, shut up.

Bingham is next. I know some partners have left this year. They were openly struggling earlier. Haven't heard much recently. I know they basically have a hiring freeze on laterals.

138 - what?

What about Orrick? And Mofo?

I was with Reid & Priest during the first bicoasstal merger with Thelen.. They sold the idea of having 2 major offices on both coasts. Those were some culturally challenging times in attempts to make it work. I'm shocked that they would continue to merge and not use lessons learned from those first years. It appears that Thelen never really used "lessons learned" in the many mergers (I think 3) that followed... Sad to see my friends lose jobs, good luck.... I was truly shocked when I was treated the way I was treated when I decided to leave the firm, so I guess you have to do right by people...

#141: just saying.....

MoFo has SERIOUS issues right now. Keeping it very quiet.

138- Bitter?

Thanks to anyone posting 401K advice. I keep being told that since I am not terminated from Thelen I can not move it, they even said I can not rollover into an IRA account until they get notice from Thelen that I am terminated.

At least we get our health insurance and dental until 12/31. That's a nice Christmas gift, huh?

So according to the comments we have:

1) Lock Lorde
2) Bingham
3) MoFo; and
4) Pillsbury

Potentially circling the drain?

Quite a bunch.

#146: Not even a little. I think her skills will translate into something viable.....

I was supposed to start at Thelen in January. I've been looking forward to it for a long time because I had a great summer there (yes, really), but lately I've begun to look for other work. Unfortunately most firms aren't in the position right now to accept new attorneys, and I'm screwed. What a sad day :(

Re 401(k): I do not believe that you can't rollover to an IRA until you terminated. Hint: I did it on Sept. 30, 2008.

Go to another institution. Tell them you want to get your 401(k) rolled over to an IRA with them. They should be eager for your business, and they will contact Schwab on your behalf. Worth a try.
Hope Schwab isn't Too cozy with Thelen; that would not be right.

Good luck all.

145 - what do you know about Mofo? And what about Orrick? Anything?

147 - An aggregate list of firms circling the drain according to ATL comments would include >75% of the Vault 100. Don't believe the comments until stories come out regarding layoffs, pushed back start dates, and significant no-offering of summers.

145 - what do you know about Mofo? And what about Orrick? Anything?

At least in SF, there aren't that many bitter feelings. We've watched how hard this has been for the partners trying to broker a merger. Knowing that the worst is realized is actually a relief. Thelen SF is full of amazing people, funny, smart and kind. Most of us like each other. Most of us feel like we've been kept in the loop as much as was possible. Few of us feel taken advantage of. Many of us will move to new firms with practice groups, and those of us who will, will keep in touch with the wonderful people who can't come along, with an eye to sending them every job opportunity we hear of.

This has been a truly wonderful place to work. I will miss it very very much.

Those of you who send good wishes our way, thank you kindly.

Anybody V11-100 is in trouble,

*starts plan to stalk Wachtell Partners

- Nervous HYS 1L

154 said it right.

Pillsbury intrigues me. They picked up the a China group from Thelan and a few high-profile energy partners from Heller. Would these partners have jumped to Pillsbury (even considering the dire condition of their firms) if the financials or other indicators looked scary there? As these groups left well before dissolution, in both cases, I assume they probably had options. What negative news about Pillsbury gets it on the list of firms in trouble? The only thing I remember hearing is that they staggered their incoming first years over several start dates, and paid a bonus to those who were assigned any but the first. I would appreciate it if anyone with information could elaborate.

Orrick just picked up 27 Heller partners. Assuming that wasn't the kiss of death, it seems they have a strong position. (They were much more successful than other Cal. firms in NY, because of their municipal bond work.)

I would have to agree. Orrick likely wouldnt pick up so many former Heller partners unless they could afford to do so.

My guess is the next firm to go is Holland & Knight. They are carrying a ton of debt, have very low PPP (so the profitable groups will leave at the first sign of trouble), and are stuck in long-term high cost leases.

is wachtell next????

http://www.thelawyer.com/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=135402&d=415&h=417&f=416

orrick is fine. i doubt too many more firms will dissolve. many many more firms will simply layoff associates/partners.

162 - How do you know that Orrick is fine?

I put three years in Thelen's SF office before moving on to study law. I greatly appreciate all the associates and partners I met/worked with while there; they are all good hearted and hard working people. I wish the best of luck to all those hit by this dissolution. Talent will always find a way to success.

I have no reason to believe either MoFo or Orrick are in trouble.

People, don't let a few anonymous comments on a blog scare you. Wait until there's something concrete. Neither of those firms has done anything in recent months to indicate problems.

155 -- yeah, williams & connolly and GDC and Paul Weiss aren't gonna make it!

I'd say V50 and below are in trouble.

Orrick and Mofo should merge...

"Anybody V11-100 is in trouble,

*starts plan to stalk Wachtell Partners

- Nervous HYS 1L"

Actually, one of my friends just started his first year at Hughes Hubbard (NYC), and they have tons of work and are actively looking to hire first-years. So for anyone from Heller, Thelen, et al. looking for work, there's your tip of the day. You're welcome.

This is terrible news. Best wishes to all the Thelen folks. As a former incoming Heller first-year, I can certainly sympathize. I hope everyone is able to land new positions soon.

Akin Gump could be next. Hedge fund works has slowed, numerous partners have left over the past year, and there are rumors that more partners are set to leave in the next couple of months.

Pillsbury also picked up a Thelen DC group. They are probably fine as long as they do not try to act like Gibson anymore

170: I hope you're not using the Washingtonian as a legal news source.

All the Skadden DC comments seem to be from the same person who in all likelihood is a GULC 2L now mail merging several "public interest" groups after law firms failed to give him the respect he "deserves" with a 3.2 at a "really good" school.

160: Holland & Knight is shady ... they never reimbursed me for a callback last year.

For Halloween festivities, do GULC students need to go to a haunted house or is their building a scary enough place in this economy?

-GW 1L

175: the pot, etc.

Akin Gump is fine. The departures are related to a restructuring plan to increase PPP, they pushed out those who weren't pulling their weight, a few good people left, but most were dead weight. Their fund group is struggling but they have major political connections and a great litigation and bankruptcy group to keep them busy right now.

Locke Lord is shedding rain makers in Houston and Dallas. I think IP is their only strength. The rest is beat up and bloody.

55, can you elaborate on what you've heard about Townsend?

Has anyone heard anything about McCarter & English, or Thatcher Profitt & Wood lately?

108, 109, 136, 150:

Interesting that you've all managed to roll over your 401(k)'s. Heller's plan with Vanguard specifically had a clause saying that it could only be rolled over in the event of termination, I guess Schwab has a different set up, which sounds much more forgiving.

Any 401(k) provider should be willing to set up a completely free Rollover IRA for you, which can later be rolled back into a 401(k) at a later employer.

Do it today.

What does this mean for my chances of getting a job in Thelen's DC office?

-- Alberto Gonzales

168 - Hughes Hubbard has been very slow since the settlement of Vioxx litigation. I know that few people were silently let go. Not sure where you're getting your information from.

*pissing my pants because i'm extremely nervous*

-extremely nervous HYS 0L

164 how's Malibu treating you.Have you kept in contact with JO, JK, CC et al

171 -- Why would the fact that Pilsbury or some other firm picked up Thelen partners be evidence that a firm is doing fine? I mean, the Thelen partners could not keep their own firm afloat. Probably need to know more about which partners are being picked up -- if it is a bunch of asbestos lawyers or construction lawyers, then not a very profitable bunch. Don't tell me otherwise -- Thelen is folding because those "core" practices cannot sustain a major firm.

whatever happened to leww?

FIRSTY FOR PRETZELLLLLLS!

whatever happened to leww?

I am so happy. This is a great day.

Thelen needed to die. The partners there are idiots who could not bring in business. The associates who stuck around are stupider still. They deserve to be fired. Any idiot who stayed at that firm got what was coming to them. Maybe next time they will know better.

This is a great day.

177 -- you are full of it. Akin Gump is doing poorly and is losing lawyers it wants to keep but can't. Sure, the firm spins it as part of some master plan, but in fact the firm is sinking.

Happy Thanksgiving and Merry Christmas, Thelen Associates.

Your gift this year is the bitterness that comes with misplaced loyalty. Enjoy.

Regarding the 401(k) issues: participants in the 401(k) plan should have access to a Summary Plan Description or a more comprehensive plan document that sets forth the terms under which rollovers are allowed. It is not uncommon for 401(k) plans to restrict rollovers for active employees for various reasons, but mainly because of IRS rules that prohibit discrimination in favor of highly compensated employees (thus, there is a need to ensure that non-highly compensated employees stay enrolled in the plan and receive employer contributions).

Your salary deferrals to your 401(k) account are protected under ERISA, as are your vested employer contributions. But, future employer contributions will certainly be frozen, and you might lose unvested employer contributions.

Costs of dissolution can only be allocated to participant accounts if the plan document allows for plan administration costs to be so allocated. Most 401(k) plans are set up this way, but it is certainly possible that Thelen's could be different. Again, you need to check the plan document.

You have a right to receive a copy of the plan document upon written request to the Plan Administrator under ERISA section 104(b) (29 U.S.C. 1024(b)). You can find out who the Plan Administrator is by going to www.freeerisa.com and looking up the plan's form 5500s.

But, there's really no need to panic about your 401(k) account unless you're in some sort of extreme financial straits that would require you to take early withdrawals. The freeze will be temporary and you will eventually be given various roll over options. There are significant tax penalties for early 401(k) withdrawals -- you should definitely avoid doing this if there is any way you can avoid it.

So, Thelen Associates, it finally came. When it did, were you ready for it, or did it knock the wind out of you?

to 157: Pillsbury picked up some energy attorneys from Heller; however, they are definitely not "high-profile"! They were picked up only because one had been in previous discussions with the firm before Heller crashed. Once it crashed it was an easy move, especially since those attorneys were not in a great position (i.e., Pillsbury could get them cheaper than what had been on the table before). As for how Pillsbury is doing generally -- some groups are doing well and others are not -- but there issues go deeper than that -- they have structural and management issues that they need to resolve but don't seem to be acting on.

I am a recruiter that hires many attorneys for a large corporation. I have to say, I would be very reluctant to hire any associate that was foolish enough to stay at a firm like this. It does not speak well of their judgment. Good luck finding jobs.

this story is almost as sad as Barack Obama losing a spelling contest to Charles Barkley last week

154: You're an ass. There are plenty of bitter folks in SF Thelen. Don't try to make it look better than it is.

196: You're an ass. And not a recruiter.

Who knows if 196 is a recruiter, and maybe 196 is an ass, but I wouldn't hire any Thelen associate, either. There was no sense in anyone staying at that firm.

Not 196.

Akin's funds group is still busier than most groups in the firm. I know this definitively.

Thelen was loser firm. How could it have taken this long for the firm to fail?

I am a Thelen lawyer laid off in March (SF). I cannot find work. The dissolution just makes it worse. Thelen totally screwed us.

This is going to really mess with the SF legal community. Between Heller and Thelen, there is a huge influx of laterals.

Damn. I am going to miss picking on this sh*thead law firm. What other firm is going to provide this amount of entertainment? Years of incompetence that we can joke about. The loss to us who like to point out Thelen's flaws is greater than just loss to the Thelen workers, who only lost their jobs. We lost something meaningful, at least the Thelen people get some time off. Damn.

Speaking of dying firms -- Anybody heard rumors of Powell Goldstein in Atlanta merging with either Bryan Cave or Nixon?

I'd recommend going to DOJ, FDIC, Commerce...they'll be investigating these Biglaw jerks for their role in the economic collapse in about...three months.

Save your skins....turn on your partners now and avoid prison.

Thank God this firm is gone. This is good news for all of us. Thelen was dragging everyone down.

Not certain where some of these posters are getting their information from, but it's not anywhere near accurate in terms of firms they think are in trouble. Bingham, Pillsbury and MoFo are all doing great given the market conditions, and all are in an opportunistic position to hire laterals that are coming on to the market. Get your information straight people!!!

Happy Thanksgiving and Merry Christmas, Thelen Associates.

Your gift this year is the bitterness that comes with misplaced loyalty. Enjoy.

209 - It's anonymous mudslinging. Someone has been trying to pound away at Skadden DC for a few weeks now. I'll only believe it when Elie posts something about trouble in that office.

I hope nobody takes the rumors in the comments seriously until at least one corroborative story shows up.

194 = 198 = pathetic, angry douchebag

You do realize that people have lost their jobs, right?

The vast majority of those affected had nothing to do with Thelen's leadership. As in any firm or company, these are people with families to feed and shelter. Nice, decent people not unlike your parents or your brother/sister. Is it so difficult for you to understand that as a result of this collapse many of these people will struggle terribly to meet their basic needs?

How long would you survive if your paycheck stopped coming? A few weeks? a month? Two? How long do you think it will take for folks to find a new job?

If you lack the basic human decency to wish them well, at least have the courtesy to shut up.

** As a personal note -- Do you even know why you are so angry ? Try to muster up the courage to get some counseling. I feel sad for you. **

is cadwalader in danger of collapsing?

Sub. Required:

http://www.law.com/jsp/ca/PubArticleCA.jsp?id=1202425622589

My favorite part: "Kuenster declined to comment on Tuesday afternoon. '"I don't think it's appropriate for you to be asking and for me to comment."'

Apparently, Ms. Kuenster skipped the day they taught Con Law at Hastings.

And to borrow a line from Weird Science: "Who is this [Richard] Gary character?"

205: GFY.
Oh wait, karma will already take care of that.

210 - I laughed so I hard I think I pooped myself.

Bitter tidings to all and to all those greedy little grinches that went BIglaw, may you all default on your student loans.

Listen, 212, we all know why you are angry, and you have the right to be. You have just lost a job. Yeah, sure, 194 was a douchebag. But you had to know that this day was coming. This was no surprise to anyone, and I think that all Thelen people have to take some of the blame here. They could have left when the warning signs started showing. I hope you can find a new job. Don't be bitter. Just be smarter next time.

212 - I survived a year post bar with no job because Biglaw sucks. I live a happier life when a firm that rejected me dies of ineptitude.

Heller and Thelen down, Mofo, Orrick, Patton Boggs and Hogan and Hartson to go.

183:

That's not true at all. Where are you getting YOUR information from? Vioxx may be almost over, but it was a smaller percentage of the firm's overall business than people realize. Hughes Hubbard has a lot of other work (including a large bit of Lehman work). They are definitely extremely busy in litigation, to the point they are hiring additional associates.

--Not 168

"Most disturbingly, Thelen apparently does not think it is obligated under federal regulations:"

Or, perhaps, Thelen thinks an exception possibly applies. That's not so disturbing, is it?

Two google searches gave me this page. http://www.lawmemo.com/articles/warn.htm (Failing Company Doctrine). A little diligence would be nice.

Good luck to the Thelen associates.

No, 216, the people who pooped themselves today were the Thelen associates when they realized, several months after everyone else did, that Thelen was not going to pull out of the death spiral. There are more shit stained office chairs at Thelen now then at a colestomy bag wearers convention.

210.

218 - what do you know about Orrick??

Have some fucking sympathy, even if it isn't for the attorneys. I am a former Thelen associate and there are a lot of people that I have the utmost respect for that are about to be out of a job, whether they be attorneys, secretaries or office staff. There are a lot of good people that are about to get shit on. For all of you law school kids and junior associates our there that think you know more than everyone else, this all has real consequences for a lot of people. People I consider friends will not be able to pay their rent and you think it's a fucking joke. It's not a fucking joke. This is a big deal for a lot of people.

Have some fucking sympathy, even if it isn't for the attorneys. I am a former Thelen associate and there are a lot of people that I have the utmost respect for that are about to be out of a job, whether they be attorneys, secretaries or office staff. There are a lot of good people that are about to get shit on. For all of you law school kids and junior associates our there that think you know more than everyone else, this all has real consequences for a lot of people. People I consider friends will not be able to pay their rent and you think it's a fucking joke. It's not a fucking joke. This is a big deal for a lot of people.

217:

212 here. I don't work at Thelen. I've worked with Thelen and opposite Thelen for year. Same with Heller, C&P, Skadden, W&C. Every place has its jackasses, but they are wildly outnumbered by pretty decent people (staff and timekeepers alike). I am grateful to be at a stable firm, and I just think it is pathetic and unnecessarily mean-spirited to take shots at the associates/staff who really had no control or fault.

This is a shitty time for our industry no matter where you are. Let's try to be decent to those who are suffering. Is that so much to expect of ourselves?

The witty banter is great -- don't change that a bit.

212: Sparks of decency are always appreciated.

FU 224/225. Thelen people deserved this. They were stupid. If some Thelenites, partner, associate or staff, can't pay the rent, then maybe the rest of us can get cheaper apartments after they are evicted. They were stupid, now they will pay the consequences.

Where is this nonsense about Pillsbury being in trouble coming from? They had disappointing numbers in 2005 due to the merger, but had very strong growth in PPP and RPL in 2006 and 2007, if I'm not mistaken. This year, many groups have been extremely busy, and recent internal presentations by management to the attorneys show that the firm's financials are very good given the economy. The rumors about layoffs earlier this year turned out to be basically made up and the firm has stated they don't foresee layoffs coming. The firm has been extremely conservative in associate hiring in the last few years, so it has far fewer junior associates sitting around doing nothing than most firms. Also, the firm has brought in a lot of lateral partners this year and lost very few. Does the firm have issues? Yes, obviously. But the idea that it is anywhere close to becoming the next Heller or Thelen is laughable.

Today it's them, tomorrow it could be you.

Thelen people deserved this? Is that a joke? How did they deserve this?

Did Thelen have an IP practice in NY? What happened to that? I can't imagine that it would just wither.

Pillsbury is fine. Anyone who says anything to the contrary is just making things up.

Hey 231, everyone in the world with half of a brain knew a long time ago that Thelen was failing. Anyone stupid enough to stick around over the last year deserves what they got.

218:

Not everyone makes the cut. Apparently your grades or your personality kept you out of a job. No need to be so angry, just start applying for jobs that match your credentials. If you can't be smarter, at least try being likeable.

205: you are a complete loser and you always will be.

234, in this market it is easy to say that people for stupid for staying once things got bad, but it isn't that easy for associates and staff to just pick up and leave for something comparable.

236: You have to admit there was a lot of stuff to make fun of at Thelen. Why are you blaming 205 for pointing out the obvious?

238, what was there to make fun of? Enlighten us.

Holland + Knight will be gone by March.

*nervously goes to bed...dreaming about my mail merge that's going out a month from saturday...dreams about cravath offer...wakes up and cries*

-nervous T-10 1L

I left Thelen a year back. That place has been falling apart for a long time. Im surprised that people stayed on even moving to Jacoby and Myers would've been a good bet.

*Pours out some Hennessey*

239: What was there to make fun of? You can't be serious or that dumb. How about the following: A merger with Brown Rayman & Steiner that results in the attorneys Brown, Raysman and Steiner leaving in about year? A 600 person law firm that merges with a 200 person law firm to create a 400 attorney law firm? And best of all, a chairman that is looking for a job when he is supposed to be saving Thelen? All of that is pretty damn funny. How much more do you need?

205: I agree with 236. we are human. We are all individuals. We all have families. We all have bills. Please, do not beat a dead horse. We should let Thelen and the individuals who relied upon it to just RIP.

243, O'neal is a clown and the merger was a complete failure. I still don't see how it's funny. Hundreds of people are about to be unemployed.

"Richard Gary, a legal consultant who was the chairman of Thelen from 1992 to 2003, said he was sorry to see his former firm's demise.

"I feel very badly about it," he said. "No one's going to come out a winner." "

Come on, Rich...with about 60 Thelen attorneys going to Nixon Peabody everybody is a winner!

I don't know much about Thelen, but when you compare the comments here on Thelen to the comments here on other firms, it seems that Thelen must be the most hated firm out there. What the hell did they do? Their people must be real assholes to get this treatment!

Yes, 243. It's a laugh riot that the people who led their partners and associates into a merger bailed in the first year and a half without a thought to those left behind. It's hilarious that people are losing their jobs right before the holidays in the most severe financial crisis since the Depression, particularly (in SF) in a small legal market already flooded with the legal talent of another great legacy SF firm. And its fucking hilarious that people who know the end is near are out there interviewing, trying to find a place to land for themselves and other partners/associates in their group. Hoo, boy, that's a real knee slapper there.

This is a sad day. A lot of really great and decent people who enjoyed practicing together in a firm with a great history will no longer be able to do that. Most will land elsewhere, but many will not. They don't deserve this crap. Nobody does.

177: Heller's party line, circa 2007.

Here's the article 214 quoted from. You need a subscription if you click 214's link but you can access the article by simply pasting the quoted text into google.

Thelen Launches Dissolution Vote, Nixon Peabody Launches Offers
Niraj Chokshi and Petra Pasternak
10-29-2008

Thelen's Partnership Council recommended on Tuesday that the firm's partnership vote to dissolve the firm, informing staff that a dissolution committee had been formed and the firm expected to close on Dec. 1.

In the first indication of where attorneys may land, it appears that about 60 lawyers could end up at Nixon Peabody -- which until recent weeks had been viewed as a potential merger partner for roughly 400-lawyer Thelen.

Management asked the partnership to vote for dissolution during a partner meeting that began at 10 a.m. PDT and lasted more than two hours. The vote will remain open for seven days, and as with Heller Ehrman's similar vote a month ago, dissolution is seen as the only option.

"I think people were expecting it, and I think they're sad, but people are very busy doing all the things they have to do," said a current partner who asked not to be identified.

"Was it a surprise today? No. Was it a surprise overall? Yes," a San Francisco associate said. "I mean, two years ago we were in a strong position."

The associate meeting in San Francisco took place at 1:30 p.m. and lasted about an hour. The bulk of the meeting was focused on issues related to moving forward, such as transition to new firms and handling client matters.

"What we don't want is for the practices to fall apart," said the associate, also asking to remain anonymous. "What I have seen so far of the people departing is that it has included both associates and staff."

While reports of top Thelen lawyers, including Chairman Stephen O'Neal, negotiating to move to new firms have surfaced lately, the biggest move currently in the works seems to involve about 60 partners and associates going to Nixon Peabody. The East Coast-based firm sent offer letters to the group, the vast majority of which is in San Francisco, according to a source close to Thelen. Among them is partner Jennifer Kuenster, co-chairwoman of commercial litigation and member of Thelen's partnership council. The group includes lawyers from the mass torts and labor and employment practices, the source said.

Kuenster declined to comment on Tuesday afternoon. "I don't think it's appropriate for you to be asking and for me to comment."

Immediately after the news was delivered to associates, a meeting was held for the firm's staff members. One staffer said it was a sad, if not surprising, situation.

"It's very disappointing, even though it was just a matter of time," said the legal secretary, asking not to be named. She will be at Thelen until the end of November, and said she doesn't know what's next for her. But even some partners don't know where they will end up, she added.

David Spielberg, who was at Thelen for 3 1/2 years until he joined Orrick, Herrington & Sutcliffe in August as part of a four-partner team led by Mark Weitzel, said, "It's an unfortunate event. It was a great law firm and I think it just got overtaken by events."

Thelen issued a press release on Tuesday afternoon saying there was no single reason for the collapse.

"The decision to dissolve the firm was precipitated by several economic factors, including recessionary pressures and numerous partner departures over the past year, both of which have negatively impacted firm revenues," the release said. "For the past several months, Thelen management has aggressively sought a full firm merger. Unfortunately, the most promising merger opportunity was derailed by conflicts, and all other full firm merger discussions terminated last week."

The release says the firm is seeking to pay its employees for 60 days, "although not necessarily required," but that so far its bank has only approved half that amount. According to the release, partner defections over the last year had triggered a lending covenant that puts the firm's bank in charge of expenditures.

A three-partner dissolution committee has been formed, it says.

One current partner said, "The handwriting's been on the wall," but added that it was frustrating to have such a recommendation made without much formal discussion beforehand.

A Thelen lawyer in the San Jose, Calif., office, however, said communication leading up to Tuesday's meeting had been good, and that the lawyers in his office were not surprised that the firm would be dissolving.

"We were prepared for the eventual outcome," said the attorney, who asked not to be identified. The office meeting, which started at 2 p.m. and went on for about an hour, was touching, he said.

"We felt I think as a group that there was full disclosure and a true commitment to help folks who don't have jobs lined up," the lawyer said. "Most of us who worked here felt that it was the right mix of quality of work and quality of life and a recognition of the balance of these two things.

"The undertone," he added, "is that it's a sad day when a firm like ours doesn't make it."

"None of us wanted to see it happen," Spielberg said. "We hope everybody lands on their feet."

The news was another blow to the San Francisco legal community, which only a month ago saw the demise of century-old Heller Ehrman.

"It's another sad day in the San Francisco legal community to lose the second firm this year," said Keith Wetmore, chairman of Morrison & Foerster.

When Wetmore was a younger lawyer, San Francisco was home to seven big regional firms, several of which had their eye on going national. Of the seven -- Pillsbury Winthrop Shaw Pittman; Thelen; MoFo; Heller; McCutchen, Doyle, Brown & Enersen; Brobeck, Phleger & Harrison; and Orrick -- only three are left.

"Regional firms are few and far between," Wetmore observes. "It turned into a dangerous strategy."

Richard Gary, a legal consultant who was the chairman of Thelen from 1992 to 2003, said he was sorry to see his former firm's demise.

"I feel very badly about it," he said. "No one's going to come out a winner."

Since merger discussions with Nixon Peabody ended several weeks ago, it had become clear that various groups from Thelen were talking to other firms about lateralling.

In recent days, that had been capped with word that rainmaking energy partner Ellen Bastier was on the cusp of joining Reed Smith and that the firm's chairman, O'Neal, had been talking to Howrey.

Two years ago, Thelen made the last in a series of mergers meant to vault it from regional powerhouse to the national level. The firm, formed in 1924, consummated a merger with New York's Brown Raysman Millstein Felder & Steiner, but the marriage has since been widely viewed as problematic. Name partners Peter Brown, Richard Raysman and Jeffrey Steiner -- and more than 100 other Thelen lawyers -- have left this year.

"As an outside observer, it appears that the firm entered into a merger with Brown Raysman that was ill-timed and ill-considered," Gary said. "Whether it made sense at some time I don't know; what's very clear is that the firm began to go off the rails after that merger was consummated."

In a worsening economy, Gary noted, fear will spread that more firms nationwide will face such dire straits.

"No partner in a San Francisco law firm will look at what happened to Heller and Thelen and not think, 'Will my firm be next?'" he said.

Happy Thanksgiving and Merry Christmas, Thelen Associates.

Your gift this year is the bitterness that comes with misplaced loyalty. Enjoy.

175: What makes GW any less scary?

-T-10 2L

To those hating on Thelen associates. Karma's a bitch...and it'll come back to bite you. People losing their jobs isn't funny you morons, how would you like it if people were kicking you when you were down.

Hoping 228 gets an offer or two rescinded or doesn't get a job period. That's what YOU deserve dipshit.

It is really shocking for an outsider like myself to see the meanspirited comments by some of the commentators.

I can only assume these are 'millenials,' dripping with their sense of entitlement and exceptionalism -- may they get what they deserve.

I can think of one possible reason that these Thelen associates didn't all go out and get other jobs - NOBODY IS HIRING.

The idea that all staff, associates, or even junior partners are stupid for not leaving Thelen before now is both ignorant and mean-spirited. While some folks may in fact have been in denial, many stayed for legitimate reasons - such as they got all of their work from a very successful partner who was staying, such as Bastier or Heisse, or they could not find something else, or they are waiting to hear from somewhere (firms and government agencies can both move very slowly). 196 - I am sorry to hear that you are a recruiter, as you are doing a disservice to your client(s) by basing your evaluation of candidates on such a superficial analysis. Even astrological signs would be more accurate.

As for those who think the failure of a major firm is "funny" (regardless of how badly O'Neal and others handled things), I suggest you try therapy, or maybe a spiritual practice, as you appear to have no heart and no soul. I wish you the best in becoming human.

@253 Guys at my high school used to use unnecessary prepositions all the time, it was no big deal.

(From 250)
"I feel very badly about it," he said. "No one's going to come out a winner...."

Except the 60 people going to - sing it with me - NIX-ON PEA-BO-DY!

".....Since merger discussions with Nixon Peabody ended several weeks ago, it had become clear that various groups from Thelen were talking to other firms about lateralling."

So does anyone want to give me a job?

How quickly ATL has degenerated to a cesspool like Auto Admit. It use to be humane and generally cordial. Now it is filled with a-holes.

I hope everyone from Heller and Thelen well.

Good luck all you non-San Fran Thelen associates. Nothing but the best.

To those of you in San Fran, I wish you nothing but misery. You and your modern-day version of Sodom and Gomorrah can burn in hell.

Pardon my french, but your an asshole!

I think I know what 261 is getting at. He's the one who was always hanging out in the stall in the men's bathroom on 18, tapping his toe and waving his hand, and couldn't even get the short filipino janitor to give him a sympathy handjob.

Several months ago, a commenter wrote that that Thelen was a "horseshit firm." I guess she or he was right.

thelen is dead. move on. get a job.

your getting paid w/ medical till the end of the year.

Why does the firm refuse to communicate with "incoming" associates?

First, we found out Thelen fired a bunch of people and our start dates were delayed through ATL

Then, we read bad news about Thelen for months on ATL.

Now, we find out Thelen is dissolving through ATL.

I understand that the remaining attorneys have to cover their own asses, but really Thelen? What happened to professionalism? Where is the common decency to inform everyone that they they're unemployed?

Yes, we can find out through ATL, but Thelen's lack of communication is utterly ridiculous. We could have easily been included in on the meeting today by teleconference, but instead we had to learn that our lives have been *officially* turned upside down by... ATL.

Thanks Thelen.

Good luck to everyone.

Good luck ex-Thelen employees. Hopefully you will find something.

Good thing 261 doesn't know much about LA or NY or DC or Silicon Valley, or he would probably be damning them, too...

Down with dogshit firms!

266, I don't mean this to be cruel, but consider this your first lesson regarding law firms.

Loyalty is not rewarded. Every partner is out for his or her own interests and only if you further that interest will you be taken care of (in some manner). Don't expect anything other than a paycheck and you'll never be disappointed.

Above all, never sacrifice any aspect of your life in support of the firm. Giving up family time or a vacation or missing a kid's soccer game will not save your job when the shit hits the fan. Be as selfish and self interested as the partners and you'll have learned the most important lesson of all, which is a lot more important than any form of communication that Thelen could have provided.

It is really insane that Thelen hasn't been communicating with "incoming" associates. You're right--it isn't hard at all, and it would have allowed these poor kids to get on with finding jobs.

I seem to remember that a few reports of firms hiring first years have been circulating around here. Good luck to all of you--there must be some firms hiring (especially if you express an undying affection for bankruptcy litigation)!!

Look, 266. You're going to be getting your direct communication from the (erstwhile) hiring partner in your (erstwhile) office tomorrow. FIrst partners, then associates, then staff were informed. You all are next, and you will be getting phone calls.

Until today, dissolution was not finalized, and any official communication outside the firm could have been problematic for the firm's ongoing negotiations with the bank. While people are indeed very much aware that all these events affect you, there were and are other priorities that must be attended to first.

Your lives are hardly the only ones that have been turned upside down.

If you can't run with the big dogs...

...dissolve.

270 - I agree with you, but I don't think this is about loyalty. Maybe I'm missing something.

Loyalty didn't get me in this situation today - a badly run firm, a financial crisis and a hope that a new job would fall out of the sky did. (even though I looked - believe me, I looked) I'm just as self interested as the worst of the partners and I would have been gone months ago if I found something comparable. Unfortunately, I didn't.

This is about running a business and being a professional. I guess Thelen failed on both points in all respects. I guess I shouldn't expect anyone from the Partnership Council or hiring/recruiting to be professional or a good businessman. If they were either, the firm probably wouldn't be dissolving in the first place.

To those of you laughing about the firm going under, or laughing at the people thrust into this unfortunate situation, I strongly urge you to go express your hateful feelings in person to a friend of yours who was laid off. I dare you to. But, because people like 216, 205, 41 and others are worthless cowards, they will not. Anonymity makes people mighty bold, but getting laid off is no joke. It sucks and it devastates real people's lives. You people should be ashamed of yourselves.

274, 270 here. I didn't mean to imply that your loyalty was at issue. My point was that you learned an important lesson about what loyalty to a firm will get you. Even though you had no control over what just happened, you can see from how the associates and staff were treated what loyalty will get you.

Law firms are not places with high standards of business decisions. In fact, they're among the worst. Thelen was not any worse than any other firm in this regard.

@ 272 - so they can find time to write a press release, but they won't even bother to email that to us? Back in March, they found time to talk directly to the blogs about our delayed start dates, but they couldn't find time to tell us first?

Obviously our lives were not the only ones turned upside down. I know this will be much more difficult on a lot of current associates, partners and staff than it will be on me. I don't have kids to support like many of you do.

But, really? It would have only taken an extra 2 minutes to include our names on the email list for the press release.

263 - The building janitors were NOT Filipino, you enormous moron.

179: Don't expect a response from 55 because he/she is just trying to start rumors. The fact is, we couldn't be busier, particularly the Palo Alto and Denver offices are flush with big patent work. Just hired three laterals from Kirkland, Skadden, and Ropes & Gray. Thelen and Heller IP associates should send their resumes. PPP will likely still be down from last year b/c of the expenses of the new DC office, but Townsend isn't in Heller/Thelen style trouble by any stretch. I'd say that 55 is probably just a jealous Thelen lawyer, but I can't kick 'em when they're down.

Good luck to all the Heller and Thelen people, attorneys and staff alike.

When huge swaths of Thelen associates end up moving with partners to other firms, I do hope that the self-satisfied posters sneering at the idea of loyalty to people will finally shut. the fuck. up.

Best wishes to the Thelen associates and staff...this just seems so unreal and unnecessary. I really can't believe the past couple of months here in town. People have been talking about consolidation for 10 years, but this contraction is really making the concept real...and painful. I'm stumped as to why this is hitting SF-based firms. Anyway, as a senior associate at another large SF firm, I just wanted to express support for you all. It could be any of us this time next year.

280: The sneerers will not shut up. They never got past junior high (degrees notwithstanding), and maybe never will. Ingnore 'em -- that's what judges and juries would do. (Mos of them will never appear before either.)

280: The sneerers will not shut up. They never got past junior high (degrees notwithstanding), and maybe never will. Ignore 'em -- that's what judges and juries would do. (Mos of them will never appear before either.)

Cadwalader is next!

Holland was very stingy on recruiting moreso than other firms at my school, also werent they in financial trouble before the 08 carnage?

LAW STUDENTS PAY ATTENTION.

Now, that I have your attention. This is a bad market. There are so *many* firms out there in bad shape. Think about it -- the corporate market is dead and litigation is really sluggish. Things will change, but not in the short term. I wish you all the best, but things are going to be rough.

Actually, I don't wish good things on those of you riding this firm or the people who worked there. They're like us, and you're on the wrong side of the equation. You will not get jobs in this market, since we can all be choosy and will see right through you.

And since you all care about these things, I'm a mid- level big law associate, from a T3 school with a clerkship.

Thelen people, we're thinking of you. Law students and others out there, we're thinking of you too. The trig-like law students who are posting here, you're most likely sunk and I'm not sorry about that at all.

the remaining attys should contact king & spalding

king & spalding will hire anyone

one of king & spalding's "partners" went to a 4th tier law school in Texas, is a sociopath, and runs off people at an alarming rate. the same partner also had a role to play in getting a general counsel of a good client of the firm fired. the same partner also asked staff to spy on another partner and is one of the most hated attys in the country

king & spalding needs some quality people to replace some of the people currently there

Seriously, can one of the editors clean up the comments? Its impossible to follow the substantive ones because of all the ridiculous nonsense. This site could be a good forum for rumors, gossip and general discussion about being a lawyer.

This summer four Thelen energy practice partners joined Orrick. They brought a bunch of associates. That and the Heller partners show that Orrick is looking to cherry-pick from these dying firms. I don't know if Orrick is choosing wisely, but they are using this as an opportunity to grow targeted practice areas. For example, the Heller partners now give Orrick a full sized anti-trust practice, which Orrick didn't really have before. Probably got them on the cheap too.

Didn't Bingham hire a few laterals in September during all of this crisis? Including a bankruptcy partner from SRZ? Seems like they are doing fine to me...

286

no one gives a shit about your "clerkship" unless it was a non-thomas SC spot.

htmfh

286: litigation is sluggish? Where? We're hopping, I'm making hours and then some and everyone is trying to figure out how to deal with all the work coming down the pipeline. That's what happens when your firm is well managed, rationally diversified and strong enough to weather bumps in the road.

Vast swaths of Thelen associates will not be going to other firms, they will be going to the unemployment office just like the majority of Heller associates who thought that they would be saved by their partners. If you have not already been told by a Thelen partner that he or she is taking you with them, and that has been confirmed by the new firm, then you are out of luck.

You know, it's ugly business doing one's duty... but just occasionally it's a real pleasure.

Is Greenberg Traurig the next to go? So many people have left or been fired that it is hard to imagine there is anyone left to turn on/off the lights.

266 - i agree, Thelen has been completely unprofessional about the whole situation. At least in NY, the 2 hiring partners were inept. The problem seemed to be worsened by the merger since there was never any official plan as how to run the summer class and each partner would give different answers about any substantive questions asked.

272- enough with the bullshit that keeping incoming associates informed would have hurt the firm's PR.

The trademark infringement suit from Tetris probably didn't help.

Management treated their employees like crap. Clients won't have to see the terrible service from NY staff any longer from the lazy secretaries to the black, unprofessional, ghetto receptionists. Mainly everyone who was a good worker was laid off long ago. Thelen had bad karma coming it's way for a while.

RIP Thelen=Rest In Piss

I can think of one possible reason that these Thelen associates didn't all go out and get other jobs - NOBODY IS HIRING.
__________________________________________

Thank you. All of this lecturing about "misplaced loyalty" is idiocy--as if all a Thelen associate had to do was leave in August in order for all to be right in his world.

They didn't leave because they didn't have anywhere to go, and the smartest choice for them was to stay and continue collecting a paycheck and benefits for as long as they possibly could.

I feel sorry for all Thelen employees affected by this, but particularly those who are new graduates or 3Ls who accepted offers for next fall at the firm. Thesze people staked the important beginnings of their careers on Thelen, and the firm left them twisting in the wind--I'm sure that none of these folks were given sufficient information to have any suspicion that this would happen to the firm. As a first-year myself, I can only nimagine how horrible it would be if my firm dissolved right now--I would have no immediate prospects, I'm not yet admitted to the bar, I have only a month of firm experience, and now I'd be competing for a few open slots at other firms with all of the experienced, admitted attorneys from my firm who have business relationships with clients already. It's gotta be really scary for those new grads--good luck to all of you.

Wow. Talk about bad karma, 298--you sound like the kind of trashy Lawn Guyland/Staten Island scum that comes out of Hofstra and Brooklyn Law School, and is irate when denied BigLaw.

Not sure where the rumors about Bingham are coming from on this board. There's certainly no lateral hiring freeze - the DC office is hiring like crazy. Something like 10 new partners from other firms in Corporate and Securities, and a few litigators. Far as I can tell the firm is outperforming the market. The SF office had been having some trouble last year, but I think its gotten its act together. They're primarily a litigation shop out there anyway, so the shut-down in the deal market hasn't hurt as much.

Not sure where the rumors about Bingham are coming from on this board. There's certainly no lateral hiring freeze - the DC office is hiring like crazy. Something like 10 new partners from other firms in Corporate and Securities, and a few litigators. Far as I can tell the firm is outperforming the market. The SF office had been having some trouble last year, but I think its gotten its act together. They're primarily a litigation shop out there anyway, so the shut-down in the deal market hasn't hurt as much.

299, Thelen associates were fools because they waited until this August to start looking in the worst market ever. The writing was on the wall for Thelen in March of this year at the latest when the layoffs occurred. Probably earlier, since Thelen has been having problems for years now. Thus, any associate who stuck around after this time last year was, at a minimum, taking a huge risk, and any associate who stuck around after the March layoffs was an idiot. That's misplaced loyalty. At the first signs of weakness in a firm, you must start looking right away no matter what management says. Its better to be an employeed 'job hopper' than an unemployed 'team player.'

bottom line is that there are few jobs so most thelen associates stayed because limited opportunities out there.

Nationally Holland and Knight has just around 50 associates start every year despite being over 1,100 strong. The firm has excellent retention rates and by having small summer classes it can keep overhead low and has plenty of flexibility going forward, unlike some shops with huge summer commitments and incoming associate commitments. Nor does the firm have huge exposure to the Wall St. (ex)giants. 08 revenue is exactly on target.

Go find another firm to fear monger about

I heard people are openly crying in the office at Thelen. Is it that bad? Must be real depressing.

Christ, felt bad for CWT associates who were laid off but at least they got several months' worth of severance!

I have mixed feelings about the whole ting.

At first, I was laughing at the Thelen associates because they were too stupid to see the writing on the wall earlier this year and instead chose to stick it out. Perhaps the job market was a factor, but, there are other jobs elsewhere, perhaps with lesser prestige.

I think Thelen associates who stuck around chose to be unemployed instead of being proactive and looking for something else -- not necessarily a Biglaw position. Perhaps Fedex/Kinko's or the local PD office or even as a probation officer.

Now I feel sad for the Thelen wives and children. They're married to stupid associates.

Confusing isn't it?

Thelen incoming associates - keep your head up. At the very least, you have a sympathetic story. Work all your contacts as fast as you can - there are still some jobs out there with strong firms. I was an incoming associate at Heller, and after two months of hustling, I found a V10 job. Good luck!

What is up with all this trashing of the Thelen associates as somehow deserving this b/c they "didn't start looking soon enough"? You may not want to admit this, but there but for the grace of god go you. Go ahead and tell yourself that this can't happen to you b/c YOU would read the writing on the wall and get out soon enough.

My firm's been getting droves of Thelen resumes this whole year. In that time, we've only hired 2 laterals total. There simply hasn't been enough room in the market to absorb them all. Those that are still there, I don't doubt its not for lack of trying.

I am just sorry that Thelen's gone. Thelen provided a lot of laughs over the years. What other firm is so incompetent that they can fill Thelen's clown shoes? Who will we make fun of? What firm will entertain us now?

Will the current attorneys at Thelen please make sure the lights are turned out each night when they go home. Some of us former partners that haven't gotten our capital back want to make sure that the utility bills aren't too high.

309 - not really all that confusing. You're an asshole.

I know heller has already been there and done that, but when is someone going to make a thelen blog so we can all go there to complain/get info?

Jon Siegfried, the man that got paid a bonus for orchestrating the move to expensive space with lots of offices that Thelen can't fill and can't afford, is laughing.

... lets talk about selfish partners. Last time I checked, running/operating a business was about making a profit. The more profit you make the more you share with your staff. Now, all of a sudden, partners are selfish because they can not negotiate a place in their new firm for every associate. You that are spewing this nonsense are crazy. I'm sure when you're a partner, you'd gladly give up (for you and your family) a few hundred thousand worth of equity to bring associate x along with you. Then, you'd probably complain about having to pay a higher tax rate than your secretary because you shouldn't have pay more than your share (wait, you've already started complaining about this). Most of the people posting comments of late are hypocritical idiots.

The NY offices are nice. True, Thelen could never afford it, but they are nice. It is (was?) the only good thing about working there. Now, if they had only hired some non-idiot partners to work there to manage the office. Not a one has been worth a pitcher of warm piss. A combination of these morons with the fools running the SF office was fatal.

Speaking of the NY office, its as quiet as a tomb, which I guess is what it is.

O'Neal is a smug jerk. I guess this is not going to be on his list of career achievements.

At the first signs of weakness in a firm, you must start looking right away no matter what management says.
__________________________________________

So if you start looking right away, the jobs will be there for the taking? You can find "signs of weakness" now at virtually all firms outside of the V5--should all those associates be looking? And if so, where?

Yes; 320, anyone at a firm showing weakness should be looking. And, if virtually all of the firms outside the V5 are showing signs of weakness (an exageration to be sure), then all of those associates should be looking before that weakness turns into layoffs or, in a rare case, firm failures. The fact that the market is bad doesn't change a thing, and a bad market is no excuse for an associate to say "I can't get anything, so I will just do nothing and hope for the best." In fact, in a bad market it is all the more important that associates be circulating thier resumes.

Law firms are different today than they were 20 or even 10 years ago. Associates have far less job security (look at average attrition rates, or ask yourself: "How many associates do I know who are on their second, third or even fourth firm?"). Thus, associates need to have there resumes updated at all times, and at the first sign of trouble, especially in a bad market, start networking and circulating that resume.

It seems that most Thelen associates, to their peril, did not follow this practice.

A word to the wise for Thelen associates and/or partners: make sure you know just exactly what will be said about you when you leave. I personally experienced Thelen's penchant for defaming people that used to work there. Have someone call Thelen for a reference check on you just to be sure.

295 -- what is going on over at Greenberg Traurig anyhow? Lots of rumours.

Anyone know where Matt Larrabee (Heller's ex-chairman) is these days?

234 - You don't understand what it was like at Thelen. I worked there for almost four years and while it is true that Thelen's management was wildly inept, that doesn't imply that everyone at Thelen was the same way.

The staff at Thelen were outstanding people, and most of the lawyers were just as great. Working around and with these people every day was a real treat: they were supportive, helpful, and yes, even though they knew the firm was in trouble, they stuck around because working with each other was such a pleasure that it was inconceivable that anyone would destroy what they worked so hard to maintain.

My own experience there was not happy at all when it came to management, and I will forever use what I saw at Thelen as perfect examples of how NOT to do things. But I still miss the "real" people at Thelen, and it is a heartbreak to see them losing their jobs. They don't deserve any of what's going to happen to them and they certainly don't deserve to be bad mouthed here. It is galling as hell to realize that guys like O'Neal are going to land on their feet while my friends languish on the unemployment rolls.

O'Neal might not be so lucky. Clients will see he was trying to save his own skin by jumping ship, while letting his firm fail. If the guy will screw his own partners like that, clients may think, what would he be willing to do to his clients?

He could be washed up pretty quick after this.

Jeez, the commenters on this blog are pretty pathetic. Gotta love all the idiot law students who pretend that they have meaningful career advice around here.

What's going on with MOFO?

298 -- Your nasty blanket statement about the staff shows you have no taste and wouldn't know good staff if they hammered you on the head. The NY Legal Support Department (aka word processing) is the best skilled department I have ever seen of its kind.

mccarter & english just had their most profitable year in firm history... not sure where the dissolution rumor came from... probably gibbons or lowenstein trolls

Wow. This board really has become a haven for the autoadmit douchebags. I was laid off a few months ago, without any warning, with my wife eight months pregnant and one week after closing on a house. Fortunately, I found a comparable postion about six weeks later, but the stress during that period was nearly unbearable. Those who would ridicule folks suffering this kind of misfortune are truly the bottom of the barrel.

Best of luck to those dealing with shit like this.

I keep hearing about the soon to be ex-Thelen associates, what about the Thelen staff ( the backbone of the firm )? They are hard workers who gets the day to day tasks done every single day. Nothing is said about them.

332, people talk about the Thelen associates because a few still think they will be saved by some partner taking them to the promised land of a new firm. The purpose of the comments is to disabuse the dumb Thelen associate of that foolish notion.

On the other hand, the entire staff knows fully well that they are truly screwed, so no need to remind them of their situation.

OMG - the NY office just sent out a reminder email to invite folks to their halloween party- tomorrow - they are having snacks and you can wear costumes .... REALLY
I have some good costume ideas...

OMG - the NY office just sent out a reminder email to invite folks to their Halloween party- tomorrow - they are having snacks and you can wear costumes .... REALLY
I have some good costume ideas...

If anybody would like to send me that Halloween email, I'd be happy to post it.

-- emystal@abovethelaw.com

I wonder if Citibank has approved the expenditure on the Halloween festivities in New York...

Holland & Knight has no offices in Europe and are entirely dependent on recession-stricken Florida. They are gone sooner rather than later.

Is the NY office Halloween party an open invite? This could be a fun event. The Thelen drudges (akin to a Heller drone) will have absolulety no reason not to party HARD. (It not like they care about embarassing themselves in front of soon to be ex-partners). The associates will be "pissed" (both in the American and British sense of the word). This could be the NY law firm event of the season.

Recommend that all with connections attend for entertainment value!

328 - This probably goes without saying but MoFo is in the best shape of any of the Bay Area firms. Of the SF native firms, MoFo has the strongest IP practice, strongest litigation group, the strongest Asian presence, and the strongest local, national, and international reputation. If you want to practice law at a big law firm in San Francisco, MoFo has been and still is the place to be.

340, are you kidding? I understand that MoFo, like Orrick, is also having problems.

Strongest IP, litigation, Asian practice, AND the strongest local, national, and international reputation?!? That's too funny.

340 -- Are you in recruiting? You need to be less obvious (and also make your message more believable).

im recruiting ninjas.

im recruiting ninjas.

341/342 - For full disclosure, I'm an ex-MoFo associate. I left on good terms though.

I re-read my post and while it came off a little "Ra! Ra!", I stand by everything that I said. I was only writing about some of the qualities which I see as helping MoFo navigate this crisis vis-a-vis other native Bay Area law firms (i.e. Bingham, Pillsbury, MoFo, WSGR, Orrick, and Cooley). I was not comparing MoFo to Munger or Cravath. And to be clear, that's also not to say that Orrick, et al. are not fantastic law firms and excellent places to work.

These are tough times for everyone and many law firms are going to take a beating. Good luck to everyone at Thelen, which, like Heller before you, had some exceptional people.

- 340

340, 345 - howard rice if in SF. they know better than "expand" nationally.

346 - Very good shop, although having problems of its own, no? I also have a great deal of respect for Farella and Keker. I was thinking more along the lines of a Vault style firm.

- 340/345

yeah, howard rice, like every other firm in SF and nationally, has had its fair share of problems. and i agree with you regarding mofo and its shape in SF. they won't be dissolving any time soon. any 2L should feel ok about accepting.

In a continuing showing of their lack of class, Thelen hiring partners have not called all of the incoming associates. Only a select few have been called. Those hiring partners should be embarassed.

349 -- did you really need a phone call to clue you in? Just bury the hatchet (NO, not in a hiring partner's head) and move on with your life.

Notice - To all Thelen Attorneys Still There - Hello! It's time to get out. There might be some opportunity at some of the better firms in Hackensack, New Jersey.

I have been reading the news about Thelen and am very saddened by it. I worked as a paralegal at Thelen for 8 years (15 years ago) and survived the downturn under Rich Gary's management. Working at Thelen, both in Oakland and SF, was a great experience. For the most part, it was filled with bright, caring, wonderful people. I don't know what it is like now, but I feel very badly for all the people who are losing their jobs. The comments by all you assholes who think of nothing but yourselves are despicable. A law firm is not composed only of associates and partners. It is composed of hundreds of staff members, most of whom are incredibly hard-working and loyal. I would not want to work for or with many of you, and I bet you are not respected where you do work. Karma's a bitch, so get ready for it when your turn comes.

I have been reading the news about Thelen and am very saddened by it. I worked as a paralegal at Thelen for 8 years (15 years ago) and survived the downturn under Rich Gary's management. Working at Thelen, both in Oakland and SF, was a great experience. For the most part, it was filled with bright, caring, wonderful people. I don't know what it is like now, but I feel very badly for all the people who are losing their jobs. The comments by all you assholes who think of nothing but yourselves are despicable. A law firm is not composed only of associates and partners. It is composed of hundreds of staff members, most of whom are incredibly hard-working and loyal. I would not want to work for or with many of you, and I bet you are not respected where you do work. Karma's a bitch, so get ready for it when your turn comes.

#88 - "McCarter and English. Going down in flames."

What makes you say that?

Tom Hill sent an email saying that the bank has now made Nov 30th the last day that we will have health insurance. What is next?

355, if that's true, then COBRA would be next.

351, of all places, how did you come up with Hackensack NJ?

Nope no Cobra being offered since the firm is dissolving. This is real to us, we are being dealt some nasty shi_ for the holidays!

I might have a sign soon , "Will work for health insurance!"

356 and 358 -- at the staff meeting in NY on Tuesday 10/28 Doug Davidson stated that the bank approved paying our benefits up until November 30 and the FIRM decided it would definitely pay our benefits up until December 31. He promised us that. Then on Oct 30 we get a WARN Act email stating that our benefits will be paid until November 30 and we "might" have the possibility of COBRA (paying it for ourselves plus an administration fee) for only the month of December 2008. I wonder if they are also lying that the bank approved payroll up until November 30 and that they are absolutely not going to let anyone go before that.

boo hoo