Accept Your Offers: An Alternative Viewpoint
As reported in these pages, a few large law firms are rescinding offers of summer associate employment. Some of the rescissions have been firm, with the firm essentially saying, “this offer is no longer available to be accepted.” Some have been softer, cast as “our offer is still open, but if you show up, we can’t guarantee an offer of permanent employment.”
In a series of posts, Elie has urged those of you going through fall recruiting and sitting on an offer (or offers) to accept as soon as possible. This is also the advice of several law school career services offices. We’ve previously posted a number of memos from CSOs urging quick acceptance; two new ones, from Cardozo and Vanderbilt, appear after the jump.
There is much wisdom in this advice — but the situation may be a bit more complicated than it might seem. From the UVA Law Blog:
[T]his “no sitting on the offer” business that ATL keeps propagating…. is far more complex than it would seem. Basically, there seems to be two somewhat contradictory underpinnings of this advice. First, you should accept an offer ASAP because holding multiple offers opern for too long hurts your fellow students. Second, you should accept an offer ASAP because you are likely to lose it if you don’t; therefore it’s in your own best interest. These are two different concerns, and we’ll try to disaggregate them.
Read more, after the jump.
More from the UVA Law Blog:
Holding Offer(s) Open Hurts Your Fellow StudentsThis is completely true. Many firms place students on a “hold” list after their callbacks while they are trying to figure out how many students (see above), and by holding your offer open that you don’t want, you’re hurting those students, many of whom may not have a single offer yet, even though NALP permits you to do it. So there’s a good reason not to do it - but to me this shouldn’t stop you from holding ONE or TWO offer open if you’re still waiting on another…. Why hold open with two firms? Because one of them might rescind, supra.
This seems reasonable. But what about from a more self-interested perspective?
Holding an Offer Open Hurts YouFirst and foremost, the claim here is that you run the risk of getting it rescinded, supra. But in a way, that almost suggests paradoxically that you should keep as many offers open as possible (the max is five under the NALP rules, FYI, subject to some date limitations). Why? Well, how are the people who accepted with Akin Gump feeling right now? Probably a bit uneasy. Moreover, if a firm can rescind offer without notice prior to acceptance, who’s to say they can’t do it without notice after the acceptance. It’s not like one option is more not-allowed under the NALP guidelines than the other, after all. Keeping multiple offers open as long as possible would seem to be a good way to keep your options open.
Good points. Now, this kind of “hoarding” of offers could have deleterious system-wide effects, much like the hoarding of money by banks is not great for the economy. But from a self-interested, looking-out-for-number-one perspective, it makes perfect sense — which is why all the banks are doing it.
Last week, at a career services program up at Harvard Law School, Assistant Dean Mark Weber made another interesting point in favor of proceeding with caution. As summarized by a tipster:
Weber clarified in a talk today on accepting offers that HLS’s position is not that HLS students are safe and don’t need to worry about offers being withdrawn, but rather the (logical) argument is that if a firm is in bad enough shape that they might retract offers, then accepting early won’t do you much good. They can always retract later despite the acceptance, or not give a permanent offer, or go out of business…Basically, why rush to jump on a sinking ship?
Now, look, don’t get me wrong — I’m not saying you should just sit on offers and while away the time because you are feeling wishy-washy. You should endeavor to make a well-informed decision as soon as possible, then act upon it.
But at the same time, you shouldn’t be pressured into a shotgun marriage with a summer employer out of a sense of panic. This is especially true if you have multiple offers. Thus far, the phenomenon of rescinded / “discouraged” offers, while perhaps spreading, is far from universal. So if you have, say, three offers, you can probably afford to take your time. Even if one of the firms rescinds, you still have two you can accept.
It’s ugly out there; proceed with caution. Good luck.
The Rescinded Offer Situation, Or, Pondering Whether the NALP Rules Still Apply IN THIS ECONOMY [UVA Law Blog]
1. BENJAMIN N. CARDOZO SCHOOL OF LAW — OFFICE OF CAREER SERVICES — MEMORANDUM
Some of you may have heard reports that a few firms have rescinded outstanding offers because they were concerned that their summer classes would be oversubscribed. Other firms are reported to have cancelled callbacks for the same reason. Although you should take the time you need to make informed decisions, you should factor the current economic climate into your decision process. If you have outstanding offers and have enough information to make a decision, it would be prudent to accept your preferred offer as soon as possible. If you have not already done so, please contact [xxxx] to inform him of any and all callbacks, offers and acceptances.
2. VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL — CAREER SERVICES — MEMORANDUM
Offers for summer employment are being accepted at a much more rapid pace than usual, due partly to the 45 day rule. Firms told me that many schools are encouraging their students to accept offers as soon as they get them, to avoid firms filling all their open slots and then contemplating rescinding offers. (Further, as the economy continues to post negative gains, firms may consider diminishing the number of hires they originally had targeted.) I encourage you to accept an offer as soon as you can….
(135) 
Comments
First!!!!!!!!!!!!
Is this the last word on this subject? Finally? Rocky Balboa?
Enough with the troubles of newbie graduates who have to deal the problem of too many opportunties.
There are a lot of laid off attorneys around.
David Lat,
You suck. Fire Elie, apologize to us for keeping him around, and then find someone better to replace him.
Sincerely,
Everyone
banks are hoarding job offers
So, basically, Lat just used reliable sources to confirm what we all felt about Elie and his pompous/idiotic advice.
Funny: Cardozo and Vandy sending out memos about their students having offers.
The complaints about Elie are getting tiresome. He is doing a fine job.
If you don't like him, then stop reading the site. A decrease in ATL traffic will get Lat to pay attention.
By constantly posting complaints about Elie, you only drive up his pageviews. Cf. Hope Winters.
agree with 3. Let's have another contest.
Lat, not sure why people hate Elie so much. Of course we would all love to have you back full-time, but give Elie time to find his voice. I think he's doing fine and we're all still reading ATL.
I was going to comment: "It took 3 weeks for you to figure this out Ellie?" But then I realized this post was from Lat...which is probably why it is more useful and well thought out than any of the other 35 posts on the topic.
7=Elie. Nice try.
7 = mysTTTal's left titty
7 & 9 = jELIE donut
"In a series of posts, Elie has urged those of you going through fall recruiting and sitting on an offer (or offers) to accept as soon as possible...
... you shouldn't be pressured into a shotgun marriage with a summer employer out of a sense of panic. This is especially true if you have multiple offers. Thus far, the phenomenon of rescinded / "discouraged" offers, while perhaps spreading, is far from universal."
LOL at Lat having to clean up Elie's mess.
I just care about Texas Bar Results. Nothing else....
Elie has his off days, but overall he's just fine. He definitely needs to proofread and be a bit more professional, in my opinion.
13 wins. never laughed so hard at a comment.
BREAKING NEWS: ELLIE FIRED
I have it on good authority that teh fat one will no longer be our editor. OH JOYOUS DAY!
Congrats, Rule 12(f).
18 - What "good authority"?
6-
Cardozo 2L here. Actually, Cardozo is exactly the type of school that should be sending out this memo, because offers are relatively hard to come by (from what I can tell, students really needed to be in the top 15% of the class, maybe there were a few outliers in the top 20 or 25%). So discouraging students from hoarding offers (of which I'm personally aware of more than a few examples), will hopefully (from OCS's perspective) spread the love deeper into the class, and hence make Cardozo a more attractive school to potential applicants. At a school where fewer than 200 people participated in OCI, the redistribution of even a couple of offers would make a difference (again, from OCS's perspective). Obviously, from an individual student's perspective, sitting on offers vs. accepting is a strategic decision that depends on the circumstances Lat highlighted.
As usual, law students reduce a two-part argument based on citizenship and self-interest to a one-part argument based on self interest. Hopefully, a few of them will grow up, and the rest will have (all of) their offers rescinded.
Stop being a nipple.
Do you have to speak Texan in order to pass the Texas Bar? Is it true that all women in Texas are fat, wear too much make up, and have vagina's that smell like week old hay?
Is it just me or has Lat been posting a lot more lately? Wonder why...
21: fewer than 200 people? That's still a high number.
Is Elie 1) quitting to escape endless abuse, 2) fired for incompetence, or 3) forced to resign due to not meeting residency requirements of the ATL Idol competition (like his namesake in Amityville)?
24 - It's not true. Not all Texas women wear too much makeup.
Not funny, 24.
Who is Morgan Lewis merging with?
Lat posting this early in the day can only mean one thing - Elie gone!!!
Yahooooooooooooooooo
26-
The point is, that as we all know, OCS at a place like Cardozo is going to do everything in its power to skew the employment statistics to make it look like a) large firms are super-interested in Cardozo students and b) so much so that they reach down pretty deep into the class. Being able to say something like "there were people merely in the top third of the class who got offers" will do wonders for the school's ability to attract fresh meat. Those kinds of pseudo-statistics sucked me in - I was a naive consumer, but thank goodness I worked my ass off and got good enough grades to get multiple offers.
Top 10% at Cardozo ended up doing better than students at many other schools, especially HLS.
33:
What's your impression of how non- top 10% students at 'Dozo?
Dear law students,
Youre spoiled children that will hopefully never enter the legal profession. Get out while you can.
Every Current Lawyer.
Texas women have crotches that smell like steer, not hay. Get your damn facts straight before you post, db.
It's November 6th. I don't know anyone with multiple offers who hasn't made a decision yet, and most made decisions a couple weeks ago.
Most people who got quick offers are now past the offer expiration date, and for this reason have finished the summer job search. This post applies to maybe 10% of law students at good schools.
Cardozo sounds like its in the same boat as Loyola-LA. If you are in the top 10-15% at Loyola you get BigLaw. Otherwise, it's back to McDonald's for the summer.
This year was no different. Our top 10% is going to Latham, Gibson, OMM, SullCrom, etc. All in CA - generally LA - though.
Glad I made the cutoff!
I feel like there is some confusion here. Some of these firms arent cancelling their summer offers. They ARE saying that they may not be able to offer full-time employment after graduation to their summers. That is a big difference, and not a violation of NALP rules. They can surely rescind an offer for future employment other than the position for which you have been offered. It's your choice whether you want a summer position with no guarantee of future employment (wah wah, i don't have a guaranteed career, wah. get used to it kid)
34- some get, some dont. I have friends that are top 3rd and have good offers from V100 firms, and I have friends who are top 10-15, and have no offers. Depends on a lot of factors, including which undergrad you went to, etc.
maybe the people with no offers that desperately need me to turn down some offers in order for them to potentially collect the table scraps, should have done better in law school if they didn't want to be in this position.
40 - I agree that it depends a lot on your outside factors at a tier 2 when you are not at the top of the class. Lots of people with engineering degrees seem to do just fine.
Gays love to sit on offers of the same sex for a long time, its no big deal.
You know what I like? When people use latin terms like "supra" in a blog post. That is awesome. I wish I went to UVA.
I think the clear front-runner in terms of reader interest is whether or not Elie has been fired. Please do a story on that, and see how many comments/pageviews you receive; I'll bet all my SA offers it blows everything else out of the water that's been posted in the last ever.
I'm sick of having Elie's insipid fixation on identity politics shoved down my throat every other day, I'm disappointed at the dearth of relevant, topical legal news, and Elie's poor writing skills are an ancillary third reason to get rid of him (though I imagine many commenters feel differently on that last point).
My firm is not going to rescind your offer. BUT, if you haven't accepted yet (and you aren't from Harvard), we don't want you. It's not that you aren't a nice or bright person. It's just that several other people were far more eager to work for us than you appear to be. So we now like them far better than you.
Don't worry - if you turn down our offer, you're not opening a spot for someone else. We already have more summers than we wanted.
We will be scrutinizing summer associates more carefully next summer, just as we did this summer. I don't know that we'll take into account that you waited until almost Thanksgiving to get back to us, but I'm sure that tidbit couldn't help.
40:
I was just asking about that top 20% to top 33% demographic, because that's the group of Cardozo students whose supposed propensity to get offers distinguishes Cardozo from St. John's, Hofstra, NYLS. I guess I'm just trying to gauge whether my decision to forgo full-rides at those other schools in order to attend Cardozo really made a difference.
"a firm is in bad enough shape that they might retract offers..." - is the dean implying that all of the firms that are retracting offers or encouraging people to go elsewhere because their classes are full are in bad shape? Certainly there are firms that have decided they only want a certain amount of summers for reasons other than the "shape" they're in - such as projected need and growth, making sure the summers will have work to do and a meaningful experience, etc. I don't see anything wrong with a firm not wanting to overstaff its summer class, regardless of how the economy is doing. Firms should have the right to control their growth and payrolls.
What is a SMU?
34 - students outside the top 10% didn't get offers at V20 firms (although I'm sure there are a few exceptions).
I'd say the top 15-25% were, for the most part, happy to have any offers at all.
I generally thought Elie was fine. I think if he posted under Lat you guys wouldn't know the difference, except for a few typos. There is a tension between timeliness and perfection, and that's the nature of a blog.
Former Thelen partner and UVA Law grad Tom Glascock (aka Glass Cock) here, begging David Lat to get rid of Elie. Really, in a typical day how many posts does Elie make, maybe three or four? And of those, three or four are either regurgitated posts from law.com or other blogs (with added spelling errors, to make them Elie's own) or some sort of ranting political or racial post that has nothing to do with a law blog. If he's getting paid for this, you're getting ripped off.
I'm one of the editors of UVA Law Blog, the one who wrote that piece (aka "Rule 12(f)") -
I, reiterate, again, that the idea that is in the student's best interest to accept his offer ASAP possible when he is waiting on others, still deciding, or trying to negotiate something (i.e. a split) is, at best, dubious -
As far as I can tell here (UVA), very few students have been swayed by the accept your offers talk - all and all a good think, IMHO.
Without a doubt, some who've already accepted offers, and some who have yet to do so, will find their firms laying off people by summer, with no guarantee of employment of SAs on graduation. Should be a great environment to work in!
50:
Is your sense that that is typical for Cardozo? On the one hand, one might suspect that our numbers are lower this year on account of the economic climate; on the other hand, we had early enough OCI (pre-Lehman/AIG) that the shitstorm hadn't quite hit yet when we were going on call-backs...
If you aren't T14, you need Top 10% or Top 15% and LR to have a good "genearl" shot at BigLaw firm jobs this summer. I'm using general to distinguish from unusual applicants - IP, unusual connection, unusual firm connection to school, obvious business development potential, hot chick*, URM, etc.
*Come on, you know and I know that it happens.
The biggest cuts are coming out of the 15-40ish range of schools. Below that, you never had much chance at a 2L summer associate position in the first place unless you were 10% and Law Review. The other group that are suffering are the "Harvard with a pulse and a bad attitude" T14 people. Guess who gets the boot first if there are fewer positions?
51 - While Lat occassionally would post a dud, on the whole his work was significantly better than Elie's. Meanwhile, the timeliness excuse doesn't hold water when Elie routinely posted material that was several days old.
UVA - The poor man's GULC.
Cardozo 2L here not in top 20% with multiple offers from top big law firms. And I get laid often. Right now, someone at HLS is very jealous of me. Sucks for that person.
Cardozo 2L here not in top 20% with multiple offers from top big law firms. And I get laid often. Right now, someone at HLS is very jealous of me. Sucks for that person.
Cardozo 2L here not in top 20% with multiple offers from top big law firms. And I get laid often. Right now, someone at HLS is very jealous of me. Sucks for that person.
Cardozo 2L here not in top 20% with multiple offers from top big law firms. And I get laid often. Right now, someone at HLS is very jealous of me. Sucks for that person.
There is some poor reasoning in the above post.
Holding multiple offers hurts your fellow students - False (this year) While ordinarily true, this year because of unusually hign acceptance rates, programs are already at or above capacity. Isn't that why we keep having this discussion? So when you release an offer, the law firm will give a sigh of relief, and will NOT extend it to your fellow students.
"Why rush to jump on a sinking ship?" This comment misunderstands the problem. The problem is not sinking ships, it is that many ships think it prudent to pull the plank when they are at capacity. The question, then, is whether you want to be on the dock with nervous 1L, or on the ship like your classmate that accepted his offer instead of sitting on it.
Sure there is a balancing you have to do, and more time to look can be helpful as things develop. But be sure to balance your desire to shop around against the risk that you lose out if you wait too long.
55- things were undoubtedly better last year. Although I think it's safe to say that Cardozo has still fared better than BLS and St. John's.
that cardozo person sounds like a douche.
65 - I wrote that. I completely agree with you.
I don't know if the talk of Elie being fired is true or not, but in the event he still has a job, please cut him asap.
To the extent that page views are up, its only because the site has already built a loyal base and it's hard to stop checking the site. Some of us just wish we could quit you, but we keep on reading, despite the poor writing and the partisan bullshit he works into every post.
If you could find a way to cut the majority of your douchebag commentariat at the same time, so much the better. Except for frat stud. That guy's legit.
im sitting on five V20 offers just to make you all lose sleep. i am thoroughly enjoying it. good day.
60 probably has offers at blue-collar shops like Schulte and Kasowitz.
-64
The UVA Blog also has commentary on "hotness." I'm sure the authors of the blog are just gorgeous!
-----------------------
It's well known to those of you that read FFJ that I spend way too much time at Panera in the afternoons/evenings studying/trolling the internet. Apparently the 1L's have caught on. Spotted in my corner of PBC: two 1L women. Look, ladies, I'm flattered, really, but I'm retired from law school social life. Plus, while I generally resent law students, I particularly resent first year law students. So, I mean it in the kindest way possible when I say, I need some space.
Also, surprisingly at least one of my female 1L stalkers was "Law School Hot" a.k.a. decent looking by normal people (read: non-law student) standards. Unsurprisingly, at least one of my decent/law school hot looking 1L stalkers was sporting an engagement ring on teh left hand (and for the record I only noticed b/c the glare from the rock kept trying to blind me). Smart dude...
Note to any dude dating a decent looking/law school hot chick whom he likes and whom (who? i dunno) is about to start law school: RUN!
Note to any dude dating a decent looking/law school hot chick whom he likes and whom is about to start law school who is not smart enough to take the advice above: If you expect her to stay loyal, you better put a rock on her finger b/c law school is filled w/ d-bag ex-frat dudes w/ over-inflated senses of self who, due to the total lack of authentically attractive women and the paucity of law school hot women in law school, will hit on your lady w/o end.
Also, getting engaged before you're even done with school = TTT.
I accepted an offer AND kept my other offers open.
This is the best option for any Law Student.
If the Firm you have accepted with looks shaky down the road, jump to another.
NALP rules are a joke and should be ignored. As you can see when push comes to shove the Firms ignore them, you would be wise to do the same.
70- the above was a guest post, and not written by the same guy who writes most of the posts and the accept your offers piece. to be fair.
Top 20% Cardozo 2L: what firms?
71 -- very well said. i know people who have done the same thing. one accepted with cravath and is keeping his other SIX offers until "he's damn good and ready to reject them." NALP rules are silly b/c: (1) there's no way to enforce them and (2) firms apparently don't follow them.
72 -- well i'm sure the guest poster is just gorgeous. i always find it funny when (likely ugly) law students feel the need to discuss attractiveness. it's sorta like the republicans opining on good economic policy.
70/72: Wait, are you disagreeing w/ the guy or just saying he's probably ugly? Because we all know he's right and his looks don't affect that.
75 = Law School Hot.
Does anyone here go to a T14? If so, are any of your classmates still having trouble securing a position? Mention your relative school rank (HYS, T6, T10, T14) and whether the problems are isolated and anecdotal or systemic around your school, e.g., the whole bottom third is getting nothing.
77 -- i know that i'm on average. that's why i don't go around pontificating on other people's looks. it just seems idiotic. new rule:
- ugly people can make fun of pretty people
- but pretty people cannot make fun of ugly people
- ugly people definitely cannot comment on other ugly people. it;s just sad.
Re: "Holding Offer(s) Open Hurts Your Fellow Students"
Does anyone care about this? Who goes to law school to give a flying fuck about fellow students? You should be trying to screw w/ your competition as much as possible.
If they ask you for a course outline, tweak yours to have several misstatements of law and send it to them. Then hope they ride that outline to a B- that helps you up the curve.
Lat's post is very thoughtful and I largely agree with it. However, I'd phrase it more like this: Once you've found a firm that you like for whatever reason (location, practice, people culture), gather your best information about the financial stability of the place, and if it's stable, then accept immediately.
As others have pointed out, the problem isn't really that your target firm will fold, that's pretty unlikely, but that given a contracting economy the number of summer slots will go down and competition for the remaining slots will grow fiercely. Because even financially stable firms cannot afford to overhire in this climate, it will lead to retracted offers or an August 2009 bloodletting to thin the ranks of a bloated summer class.
The idea is simple: Don't run hastily to a sinking ship, but run quickly to higher ground. With that caveat, I think Elie's advice (while repetitive) was essentially correct.
Cardozo alum here --- it can be hard for dozo grads to get offers when below top 20%, but there are always a few. My wife is a Fordham grad and her experience is that they aren't doing that much better. Let's face it, as far as NY firms are concerned they always have the option of Columbia, NYU & Ivy grads -- why shop at lesser schools?
Law students at all non top tier schools need to be realisitic --- you're probably not getting the big firm job and it has little to do with your grades, your career center, your experience, etc. The law school you attend makes a difference.
ATL should run a law school hotties contest of some sort
GULC probably has the highest concentration of go tackle a bus ass ugly female students outside of Texas. Its just the way it is.
84 -- but i bet the guys at gulc are just to die for! not.
LOL @ the sense of superiority from Cardozo students.
85 = Ugly GW girl wishing she was an ugly GULC girl
Does anyone have more than 3 girls at their school who you would consider approaching in a non-law school atmosphere?
Discuss
64 - WTF are you talking about?
I work at a V10 firm and we interviewed quite a number of Brooklyn and Fordham student the last few months. I think we interviewed only one Cardozo student and she was a total ditz.
I spoke to friends at other peer firms and that appears to be the case for most firms - Fordham and BLS does a much better job of placement at the V10 and V20s. Heck, there are a lot more St. Johns grads than Cardozo grads at the V10s.
FYI, I am a CLS alum but for some reason, I am the junior associate "interviewer" for all the 2Ls from the NYC schools. Most of them are quite nice and pretty impressive.
88 -- based on looks, yes -- more than 3 -- maybe 10. but if i knew their personalities, definitely not.
86-
I think Cardozo is one of the more underrated schools. That doesn't justify a sense of superiority, though.
Cardozo = TTTalmud
has Nervous T-10 1L accepted a SA yet?
Cardozo = TTTalmud
88 - def at least 2 hot blondes in the 1L class. hot from college hot
I'm not sure what's worse - Elie perpetually posting this nonsense about accepting offers, school's like H and UVA feeling compelled to offer an "alternative" take on a "complicated" decision, or Lat having to publicize the "alternative viewpoint."
This is all completely common sense that has been discussed in the comments from day 1.
Can we get some kind of hottest girls of law school ranking?
*97: ugly socially inept law student who lives vicariously through internet relationships*
- nervous T-10 1L
98: working for free this summer.
98: Working for free this summer and living at home with mom while reading harry potter books.
- 2L w/ job
"100: drives deteriorated vehicle to TTT firm"
*smiles knowing I am at T10 and will get a better job*
- nervous T-10 1L
"100: drives deteriorated vehicle to TTT firm"
*smiles knowing I am at T10 and will get a better job*
- nervous T-10 1L
89 is wrong.
I hate to break it to you, but I too am at a T-10. So the only reason I'm smiling is because at best, you can match me in the job category...but then again, you'll still be living at home reading harry potter books.
- 97
How much lower than American University LS do you think GULC will be ranked when the new USNWR rankings come out??? I say 5 spots.
89-
everything you're saying is explained by the fact that Cardozo is quite a bit smaller than BLS and Fordham. You would have to look at the proportional numbers to see how Cardozo does relative to those schools. Obviously, Fordham places more in the V20. I would be shocked if you found that BLS did.
106 - 100% agree with your comment. Spot on.
89-
Addendum- St. John's is smaller than Cardozo, so I have to concede on that one, if your assertion is correct.
But anyway, keep in mind that if you went to a law firm's web page and just looked up all the lawyers from St. John's (or BLS or Fordham), everyone would turn up, including old geezer partners who went to St. John's 20 years ago when Cardozo was a shit-ass school. Cardozo has improved much in recent years. The relevant analysis would be, how has Cardozo placed people this summer compared to those other "regional" NYC schools.
89-
106 again. I must concede your point about St. John's, assuming your assertion is correct, since it is in fact even smaller than Cardozo.
Although keep in mind that if you're looking at the firms' total number of alumni from a particular school, St. John's, Fordham, (BLS?) will of course overwhelm Cardozo since the latter was a shit-ass school up until fairly recently. I would want to find out how Cardozo did this past summer compared to the other "regional" NYC schools, rather than looking at the total number of lawyers on the firm's webpage from each school.
im sitting on 100 offers n00bs... pwned!
89:
And, one more thing (at the risk of over-posting):
I would also want to expand my inquiry (of Cardozo's placements relative to BLS and Fordham) to the full V100. Most people don't know enough going into law school to say, I need to work for a V20 firm. Rather, they think, I want to come out of law school making $160k. So if that is the litmus test for most folks, which in my experience it is at places like Cardozo, then I would want to see the big picture, not just the rarified V10 firms.
Canada is even getting into the game too - from McGill University Faculty of Law:
from the CDO -career development office:
1. Recruitments:
a. New York Offers Following the OCIs: we are hearing rumors of some NY firms’ summer classes getting full and students being revoked offers. With the state of the market, it is not recommended to sit on your offers for too long. Feel free to drop-by the CDO for more info/advice on the matter.
I'm sitting on an offer from Jan Dils LC (www.jandils.com). Should I accept or wait till I hear back from Thelen?
- Prestigious T5 Southerner
106 or other Cardozo Troll - take a look at this: http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml
I know you will come in your pants (even though it clearly shows that Cardozo is weak at the V10 firms)
The number of graduates at the following firms:
Wachtell
Cravath
Skadden Arps
Sullivan & Cromwell
Davis Polk
Simpson Thacher
Cleary Gottlieb
Kirkland & Ellis
Fordham - 104 Alums
Brooklyn - 63 Alums
Cardozo - 24 Alums! YAYYYY!!!
SJU: No Data
I have it on good authority that Elie has been posting as lat!
After writing the post, he'll read through, counting errors and depending on the # and type of errors, post it either as Lat or Elie.
Elie has outsmarted us all! (well, you'll!)
Three comments:
1) The guy who posts on UVA Law Blog is considered by some at UVA to be kind of a harmless DB, although I have no problem with him (the "supra" thing is a good example).
2) I agree with most of his thoughts about accepting offers.
3) There is a VERY healthy number of hot girls here (not law school hot, just hot), and most of the ones I know are smart and friendly too.
Hasn't Fordham Law been around a wee bit longer than Cardozo Law? Say, 1905 vs. 1976? Just saying...
116
Comment #3 is false. UVA girls are either:
1) Asian
2) Butterfaces that have been space docked by the entire Sigma Chi house.
117: don't forget about brooklyn - also early 1900s
114-
Again, the discrepancy with respect to Cardozo/BLS is explained by the fact that BLS has a bigger class - compound that by the number of associate classes which the lawyers surveyed represent, and also factor in that Cardozo was a substantially worse school even 10 years ago than it is now, and there you go. So again, I would need to see some data for 2007 or 2008 to know how relatively successful students from the two schools have been with the elite firms.
A good handful of UVA girls are surprisingly hot, considering it's a law school.
To all Cardozo doubters/haters: Cardozo's employment success in v100 firms vary from firm to firm as some firms have more experience with Cardozo alums than others. I think a very telling sign of Cardozo's rising prominence in the NY market is the fact that more and more super-selective boutique firms are hiring at Cardozo. For example, Cardozo is the only non T16 at which BSF (ranked in the Vault top 20 for selectivity) does OCI.
http://www.bsfllp.com/careers/summer_associates/on_campus_schedule.html
Notice the conspicuous absence of both Fordham and BLS.
ForTTTamhttp://abovethelaw.com/images/buttons/preview.gif
ForTTTam
ForTTTam
David Boies went to GUCL
89:
1. You are passing up on extremely competitive candidates because you interviewed one person from Cardozo who may or may not have been a ditz.
2. "She was a total ditz" totally smacks of racism.
3. Anybody who uses phrases like "WTF" and "FYI", doesn't garner much respect from me.
If you represent your firm's attitudes, I am most grateful that I did not interview with you.
Correction:
Line 2 above should read "smacks of sexism."
89/127-
Two Cardozo 2Ls that could accurately be described as "cute little ditzy girls" each got offers from Cravath, S&C, DPW, and Latham.. and last time I checked, v5 > your anon "v10" firm.
Cardozo has hot girls.
good thing i'm going to cravath, suckkkaaaas!
It would be nice to have an offer -- ANY offer -- to accept.
- T10 2L, top ~30%. Yeah, this summer is going to suck.
122-
Good point. At my OCI interview, the BSF partner told me that the firm recruits at Cardozo because they have been very impressed by a couple of Cardozo alums with whom they work
129 (and, I suppose, 89):
For what it's worth, I would add that at Cardozo, I have come across many impressive students with interesting backgrounds, and quite often undergraduate degrees from elite institutions (the Ivies, Stanford, University of Chicago, UPennState). It seems that in more than a few cases, these people ended up at Cardozo because they had slightly lower LSAT scores than necessary to get into Columbia or NYU and a) they have family commitments that tie them to NYC or b) they were offered a big fat scholarship from Cardozo. Also, in some cases, observant Jews who could have easily gone to a higher ranked law school feel more comfortable at Cardozo on account of its affiliation with Yeshiva.
All of that being said, there are ditzes for sure. But I would venture that the top 25% or so at Cardozo (in 2008, anyway) was quite a strong applicant pool for the big firms.
24 takes it up the ass