FUCK THAT SHIT!! FIRST!

LOL at the d-bag 3Ls at Cornell going to Cravath! Enjoy your bonuses, jerks.

Third.

i think now we have people's attention...

Wtf cravath. How could you possibly do this to us the day after skadden announces TWICE AS MUCH? How can you possibly not much Skadden?? what a piss poor move by the partners.

I'm so glad I work at Skadden.

First.

Wow. I've never been more happy to be an ex-Cravathite than I am at this moment.... possibly except when I go home each night by 8pm... but it's a close call.

Does Skadden have hours requirement? If only half the associates billed 2100, then I'd take Cravath's lower but guaranteed bonus

Cravath is TTT now?

I hope the smug 2Ls learn that the market is a powerful bitch.

What cheap assholes. I cant wait to see their PPP this year. I am sure that all the associates who billed 2600 this year are thrilled. This better not become the standard bonus.

CravaTTTh

Wow - boneheaded move. They're really going to let Skadden out-pay them? This should really hurt the "prestige" rankings and recruitment...

It really is a sad statement and gives one pause as they think about the year to come. Whether inflated or not, this, along with all the unfortunate layoffs, does affect the way most lawyers live and save.

Wow, wonder if the I-bank clients told them to toe the company line and shaft people on bonuses or they were yanking the business? Not likely, but Wall Street bankers would be big enough douches to do something like that.

The sky IS falling.

Way below what the market will be. CSM is now a TTT.

Skadden's hours requirement is 1600, not 2100. Always has been.

Cravath will do fine. They'll stick together. Note that while they're paying about half as much as Orrick will to people who hit hours, even less busy people at CSM will get the class bonus.

So good for CSM. It ain't easy hitting hours.

wow, that is something.

Whoa! 30 grand!?! That's a lot.

First--to post CravaTTTh sucks! Where are all the Skadden haters now? Hmn?

Im billing like crazy recently. Odds that I get fucked because other associated aren't? Pretty high I bet.

Aweome.

you forgot the siren though...and it's very necessary this time.

pay him. pay that man his money.

http://www.infowars.com/?p=5938

Cravath. Yanking bonuses.

BUBBLE BE POPPED

Being angry about getting a 5 figure bonus in this economy? People need to get a grip - some people are getting laid off, not to mention a lot of people in this country get paid $17,500 per year, not as a "bonus" to their astronomical salary.

Everyone needs to quit bitching and be thankful that they still have a job.

ELIE-

Please scan in the Cravath memo or somehow prove that your information is legit. I have serious doubts about this just being a hoax. There is no way CSM would not match at least market.

Pay him. Pay that man his money.

Bonuses are shit this year, the firm lives on.

29 - go join biglaw or go away. what do you expect from a blog like this?

THIS MEMO IS FAKE - NO WAY THIS COULD BE REAL.

Dear haters,

HOW YOU LIKE ME NOW??

Kind regards,
Skadden.

If no year-end bonus, where is the incentive to bill over 1400 hours?

29 suck my dick. my rate is higher and i billed more hours. you suck, kill yourself you awful little bitch.

17,5000 is the ceiling in aTTTlanTTTa!!!

Does this have anything to do with them hiring 160 summers this past year?

Skadden RULZ!

17,500 is the ceiling in aTTTlanTTTa!!!

Now we wait and see: S&C tomorrow?

Any law firm that cuts bonuses and suggests that bonuses could be gone in 2009 probably encourages a few more mid-level associates to head for the exits, making layoffs less necessary. In this economy, it's a good move as compared to the alternative of suffering the embarassment and disruption of layoffs.

All who feel betrayed to the point where they must quit are welcome to give their positions at Cravath to us.

- zombie ex-3L's

28 - best post ever for making a Teddy KGB reference.

P.S. - I work at Skadden. Mwahahahahahahaha!

It really is a pack of newports and a 40 at cravath. Chesler can eat my whole a55hole.

my friend K.M. in atttlanta just got laid off!!!!!!!!!

Skadden Money (TM), bitches!

Wow. After being told time after time that Vault rankings are meaningless, maybe now people will understand that prestige isn't everything. Cravath has no bankruptcy dept., Skadden is huge in bkr. Cravath's whole model is depends on banking clients, and Skadden is more diversified. Other than naked reliance on tradition (i.e., Cravath's historic role as a market leader), there was just no reason to think that a firm dependent on premium billings from now-defunct (or near defunct) financials would outperform a firm that has built up a more diversified practice once a downturn hit. There is a big shakeout coming, and the structure/business model will have much more to do with who survives than where any given firm ranks in some meaningless poll.

ha wow so now every firm has to make a choice between Skadden and Cravath bonus structures.

im betting the smartly run, economically prudent firms all follow cravath and the big "spend it while we got it" firms follow skadden. all the jackasses who post here will call the Cravath firms TTT, but im betting thats a much wiser move...

This means than V10-100 will feel 100% fine giving out ZERO.

"What you want a bonus? Even Cravath, where you couldn't get an offer in a bubble, says 2009 means you'll get nothing and like it. Shut up or you're fired."

How do you like them apples?

i <3 uncle skadden

IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD!!!

I am shocked and awed.

Being angry about getting a 5 figure bonus in this economy? People need to get a grip - some people are getting laid off, not to mention a lot of people in this country get paid $17,500 per year, not as a "bonus" to their astronomical salary.

Everyone needs to quit bitching and be thankful that they still have a job.

Seriously? I'm sure that Cravath wouldn't hurt its reputation (as this surely will) with lower bonuses just because it's feeling a cheap. I'd rather my firm lower bonuses and act conservatively than pay out high bonuses just to keep up appearances. (I don't work at Cravath.)

To anyone who thinks this is a bad move by Cravath, grow up - this is brilliant. They get out 24 hours after Skadden but before anyone else has announced. They make their financial clients happy by appearing to hold the line on associate comp. And they set the market for pretty much everyone else: who exactly will feel the need to top Cravath and pay at Skadden levels? Nobody. So Skadden will stand as an outlier.

And what's the cost? What's the difference in quality between the people who would have come to Cravath but will now go to Skadden purely because of the higher 2008 bonus, and the people who will still go to Cravath? Is that difference worth maybe $10 million in associate comp. plus client goodwill? We all know the answer.

Let's just hope our firms pay bonuses at all this year. Just hold on to your job and count your blessings.

Skadden's hour has long been 1600, and there's no indication that it has changed.

I do have to say that a part of me is incredibly vindicated at this news after getting nothing but crap about Skadden. But after I get over my two-second gloating, I have to say that this does rather frighten me. How the mighty can fall. We should all take heed.

There is simply NO WAY this is a real Cravath memo. If the substantially lower bonus figures (than Skadden, anyway) was not a sign, then the rediculous proclomation re: no bonuses for 2009 was. C'mon - why in the world would Cravath, or any firm for that matter, predict a year in advance what the bonus might or might not be?!?!

36 - the incentive is to not get fired. pretty big in this economy

Now we can truly place a Fair Market value on PrestigePoints. Is the loss of PrestigePoints from V2 to V5 worth ~$20,000 to a mid-level associate? I'm guessing not many people will lateral down.

I'm expecting a Nobel Prize in Economics with my cutting insight.

How on earth does this not have a siren? This story is bigger than any other story about layoffs or bonuses this year.

CSM is heavily leveraged (much more so than WLRK or S&C)--what is the partner:associate ratio at Skadden?

Skadden pwns Cravath

30 - agree this memo looks fake. Could we have some more proof please?

56 - don't re-post, it is annoying and you are a worthless piece of s#!&. Go away.

I WANT TO KNOW IF THE PPP WILL REMAIN THE SAME! PARTNERS BETTER TAKE A PAYCUT, OR I'M SENDING MY RESUME OUT NOW.

-- DISGRUNTLED CRAVATH 4TH YEAR

apparently cravath = (skadden / 2)

"While the Firm believes that we should pay year-end bonuses this year, in light of the current business climate we do not think it is appropriate to pay the full bonuses that were paid in 2006 and 2007."

Does this mean that Cravath partners will forego their full draw also? For Class of 2007, a reduction of $17,500 equals approximately 10% of their annual salary (more, if you bother to compute the tax rates once SS has been maxed). I would expect the fine CSM partnership to take a commensurate 10% hit to their bottom line before they bilk the hard-working drones, er, associates.

Elie,

Thanks for bringing in the news, bad as it may be. But please bring back the flashing red lights. These last two bonus posts warranted them.

63 is abosultely right. if anything made it official, this was it. 11/20/08 = Black Thursday.

I call Hoax. 1, they wouldn't do this unless they are in really serious trouble...2, the part about bonuses in 2009 seems really fake

That's pretty weak. Also might mean that some of the shops outside of NY that are still doing fairly well and base their bonuses entirely on hours (meaning they don't have to pay nearly as many people the bonuses this year) might end up paying associates a higher bonus than Cravath, which would be hilarious.

Kirkland Chicago is probably going to go at least as high as Skadden as best as I can tell.

62 - Skadden is V4, not V5. It's WLRK, CSM, S&C, Skadden, DPW, etc...

I actually applaud Cravath for having a spine and aside from having been across the table from them on several deals, I have no affiliation with Cravath.

Has ANYONE confirmed this? This looks like a big hoax. No way Cravath comes in at half of what Skadden is offering.

Whoa. I'm totally speechless. WTF, Cravath is now officially TTT. Skadden >>> Cravath

This is probably real, and ATL probably already has this confirmation, but can any Cravath associate confirm?

what's ttt?

Memo real: have talked to Cravath associates (who are blindingly angry) and confirmed. Yipes.

I guess Jack's going to have to wait a little bit before he can live in the woods.

This is embarrassing for Cravath.

It was a banner f*cking year at the Cravath family! Old man handed me half a Skadden bonus and said, ‘PPPs down, Johnny!’

Four of my friends from Cravath confirmed the memo. IT IS NOT A HOAX. Get over it.

CravaTTTh!!!!! I love that people get to learn what TTT is through this post!

I kind of doubted this was true as well but it's been up for half an hour now, and no flood of CSM associates calling it a fake. Wow.

Four of my friends from Cravath confirmed the memo. IT IS NOT A HOAX. Get over it.

Aside from the merits of the announcement for this year, it seems really, really dumb for the firm to tip their hand w/r/t 2009 bonus scenarios. Why do that now, when they could just as easily stay quiet and go through the bonus determination process next fall?

80 - You are.

100% confirmed. Talked to several of my friends at Cravath. And they are NOT happy.

Cravath has 1/4th the number of attorneys Skadden has, and STILL can't match Skadden bonuses. That sounds like seriously problems to me.

69 - the partners better be taking more than a 10% hit. when PPP went through the roof from 2003-2007, did associates get pay raises in the same proportion? no way. so why should we bear the same proportion of the cuts when times are bad? and the "looks bad to clients" rationale is garbage -- the money is either going to the partners or going to the associates.

"Top Tier firms like Cravath will break away from the rest by raising salaries to $190K!"

Would you prefer that they fire associates to save revenue or they lower bonuses?

I don't believe it's real. No one from Cravath has confirmed.

This will be the final straw that breaks Elie MysTTTal's back. Posting a false story about an important subject.

You fat, non-proof reading, gay, donkey raping ass muncher, you.

I work at Cravath and I can tell you the memo is legit. It was sent at 5:07 this evening. I agree with 43--this is essentially a way for Cravath to show people the door without doing layoffs.

BRILLIANT MOVE.

SERIOUSLY.

Instead of laying off associates, Cravath is weeding out those who are only in it for the money, not those seriously gunning for partnerships and are committed to the work and the clients.

See, Cravath doesn't look as bad. Calm the F!@#K down.

To the True Leader$ of the Pack:

Opportunity knocks! Time to pull out in front by showing you can still pay top $ bonus. V10 is going to get a spring cleaning over the next two years.

95-wouldn't this result in the most promising, hardest working associates walking?

this just seems like a good way for them to get associates to leave. you give a low bonus in one year, when the economy is fcked, and hopefully a bunch of attorneys leave. this sucks, but for the firm, it is better than the reputation hit they would get with layoffs.

this just seems like a good way for them to get associates to leave. you give a low bonus in one year, when the economy is fcked, and hopefully a bunch of attorneys leave. this sucks, but for the firm, it is better than the reputation hit they would get with layoffs.

this just seems like a good way for them to get associates to leave. you give a low bonus in one year, when the economy is fcked, and hopefully a bunch of attorneys leave. this sucks, but for the firm, it is better than the reputation hit they would get with layoffs.

I work at Cravath and I can tell you the memo is legit. It was sent at 5:07 this evening. I agree with 43--this is essentially a way for Cravath to show people the door without doing layoffs.

LOL at working just as many hours as associates at WLRK but making half as much with no bonus.

What are the hookers and coke dealers going to do now? I predict a rash of break-ins and car jackings in 2009

92 - because they own the firm and make the decisions, that's why. Now cut the crybaby loser talk and get back to work.

Whoa. I'm totally speechless. WTF, Cravath is now officially TTT. Skadden >>> Cravath

this just seems like a good way for them to get associates to leave. you give a low bonus in one year, when the economy is fcked, and hopefully a bunch of attorneys leave. this sucks, but for the firm, it is better than the reputation hit they would get with layoffs.

Not such a great move if other top firms follow Skadden. Then the reputation hit will be just as bad as if there were layoffs.

but the better ones who can still find a job leave.

Cravath will look great to their clients with this move...until they come out with PPP of $3mm. Then they will just look greedy.

I think this is a hoax. Can anyone confirm at Cravath?

this is excellent news for partners at all firms...now we - i mean "they" - can simply cheap out on bonii and say "its the economy guys and girls....sorry...now get back to work on that bank holding company conversion and be thankful for your job"!!!!!

suuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhwwwwwwwwwwweeetttt

Prediction: Skadden will issue a revised bonus memo matching Cravath's numbers.

(Someone correct my memory if faulty.)

Back in '00, first-years in NYC were getting $40K, with $5K increments per year, and they announced early--early November.

Then, of course, the bottom fell out.

Taking Cravath as a good example, they gave $20K in '01, with $5K increments per year, but didn't announce until late November.

In '02, they gave $15K to first- and second-years, $20K to third- and fourth-years, and $25K to fifth- and sixth-years. Again, later. Most didn't announce until early December. (A few were up closer to $20K, but I don't think any maxed out beyond $30K.)

In '03, lots of firms waited until late December, again going in the $15K-$17.5K range, mostly maxing out at $30K-$40K.

So Cravath: worse than '01 but better than '02.

BIGLAW IS OFFICIALLY TTT

every firm.

layoffs. stealth layoffs. forced attrition. yanked bonus. de-equitizing partners. of counsel limbo. capital contribution requirement increases.

BIGLAW IS TTT. deal with it dbags

96 - you're an idiot. I can be committed to clients and work hard to become partner at another firm that is paying better. The people most likely to feel slighted are the hardest working associates who billed the most hours and are now getting screwed. If this is being used as a way to weed people down without layoffs it is being done at the expense of management not being able to choose who stays and who leaves.

i'm not saying this is a hoax, but i did find it weird that they're already talking about 2009 bonuses.

that said, i know corporate people at skadden who are saying they're having trouble meeting even 1600 hours. people leave early, or they have nothing to do in the office. so what's the point of having high bonuses if people won't even get it?

Good thing Obama is coming into CHANGE things! BIGLAW to 40% INCOME TAXES!!!

Think about it. Assuming Cravath PPP of what? 2.5mm? That means 30k bonus, which is the HIGHEST level, is 1.2% !! of a partner's salary.

Even if PPP are 1.5mm this year (unlikely that low), that number is still only 2%. That is just ridiculous.

Where are the angry Cravath associates going to go? Nobody is looking to hire mid-level laterals. They'll suck it up and keep working. They know that at the end of the day 95% of associates (and most partners as well) are fungible. Leave Cravath and they'll find someone else who will be happy to take your place

Cravath mid-level here. A few of us are planning a walk-out tomorrow. Any takers?

Where are the angry Cravath associates going to go? Nobody is looking to hire mid-level laterals. They'll suck it up and keep working. The management knows that at the end of the day 95% of associates (and most partners as well) are fungible. Leave Cravath and they'll find someone else who will be happy to take your place

What about this sentence: "Absent special circumstances (approved by the Managing Partners), an associate must still be at the Firm on December 12 to be eligible for the year-end bonus."

Does this mean some associates will not be at the firm on Dec. 12th. Precursor of things to come, if you ask me.

I think 50% of regular bonus is pretty good considering the entire financial universe is melting down. Not to many places for disgruntled assocs to go right now. Many lesser firms will probably pay 0 and fire a bunch of people by year end

FIRST to apologize to her brother for not being more sympathetic when he told her this news.

Where are the angry Cravath associates going to go? Nobody is looking to hire mid-level laterals. They'll suck it up and keep working. The management knows that at the end of the day 95% of associates (and most partners as well) are fungible. Leave Cravath and they'll find someone else who will be happy to take your place

whaTTT's TTThaTTT i hear? cravaTTTh's vaulTTT ranking hiTTTing the TTToilet?

HI CRAVATH 6TH YEAR, MY BONUS IS BIGGER THAN YOURS.

ALL THE BEST,
SKADDEN FIRST YEAR

116 - "what's the point of having high bonuses if people won't even get it?" That's exactly the point, lots of firms (namely the big California firms, Latham, Gibson, et al) announce bonuses that are just as high as NYC firms, but aren't lockstep (i.e. - you have to make hours to get them). That way they can say they're at "market" (or above it in the case of Skadden) and have a lower bonus cost per associate, because a chunk of their associates won't qualify. In a banner year like 2007, the firms can blame it on the associates for being lazy, in a year like 2008, many, many associates won't make their hours and will get zero.

Lockstep not so fun in a down market, eh?

56 - don't re-post, it is annoying and you are a worthless piece of s#!&. Go away.

56 - don't re-post, it is annoying and you are a worthless piece of s#!&. Go away.

V50 here paying regular 2007 bonus (no special). Having a great time laughing at Cravath associates who billed more than I did, earning 1/2 the bonus. Cravath is TTT.

I thought THE ONE would have fixed all this economic stuff by now. I've been had.

The "must still be at the firm line" is in every CSM bonus memo and the warning on no budget next year was in the 2001 bonus memo.

Calm down people.

Skadden thought it was doing what other firms would do -- i.e., matching 2007 bonus numbers without the supplemental. Cravath quickly announced its numbers to signal to the market not to follow Skadden. I think firms will now quickly announce the Cravath numbers so that Skadden becomes the outlier. Skadden will then be forced to revise its numbers downward to match everyone else.

So hold off on the gloating, Skadden kids.

WHAT IS TTT?

Strong move by Cravath. Where exactly are disgruntled associates going to go in this market? I've received 2 headhunter calls in the last month, as opposed to 2 a week in July and earlier, and 1-2 a day last year.

But the thing that really does suck? For the first half of the year, many, many people were still busy at their firms - enough to make hours for the whole year or more. And yet, firms make absolutely no concession for that. I'd like to see all corporate clients tell their executives that they get half their bonus for doing what they were supposed to do.

Hell, I'm still on pace for a 200 billable hour month (in corporate!), but I can't complain because I have a job. Cravath's announcement confirms that I won't see any real bonus for this year.

Remember that Cravath only has two offices: NY and London. They are completely - the two financial centers of the world. Now I know that Skaddens DC office is in bad shape :), but they do get business that is created in those other offices (some Antitrust litigation, Gov't work etc.)
I wouldnt be surprised if everybody follows Cravath, but I bet that Cleary which has a lot of offices, DPW, and S&C might be a little better off. Plus, at least with S&C, I feel like I have heard them in the news a little more, even though Im not as confident with respect to their ability to generate a ton of "non financial business" in their other offices. Actually I think i might be most confident in Cleary's ability to do that. Maybe DPW? Then again, luckily S&C saves a ton of money by owning their own building - so they didnt just sign up for some 900 million dollar lease a couple of years ago

While this may be good in the short term, as no one is going anywhere in the current environment, people have long memories. When the economy picks up, in 2-3 years, the best and the brightest will be more likely to bolt. Also, CSM will be known as the firm which saves money on associates in down turns. This is not a good thing to be known as during recruitment, and it will have effects for years to come.

The real question—will tomorrow be Bloody Friday? I’m guessing that multiple firms are going to lay people off tomorrow. 1) it’s a Friday—less disruptive, 2) get it out of the way before December (holidays and all), 3) although not the last Friday of the month, next week is Thanksgiving and laying people off on the week of Thanksgiving would just be cruel.

Come on S&C, show me the money!

Cravath will look great to their clients with this move...until they come out with PPP of $3mm. Then they will just look greedy.

I think this is a hoax. Can anyone confirm at Cravath?

You all realize this means that SDMA has better compensation than Cravath??? SDMA bonus = $5g for every 50 hours over 1,950.

I'm just so happy I got to a T50 public school that Cravath refuses to interview at!

I want a fucking do over

-2L going to Cravath this summer after turning down Skadden

id still rather work at, and hire from, csm than skaTTTen....

Skadden is the market leader. hth, haters.

HI SKADDEN FIRST YEAR, MY BONUS IS BIGGER THAN YOURS!

WITH KIND REGARDS,

ORRICK FIRST YEAR

I disagree with a number of the posters here about Cravath's strategy. This is not a move to get people to jump ship. Associates will gripe and be pissed, but there is really nowhere else to go right now.

So, I work at a firm with hours based bonuses, and expect to get about what I did last year - around $65k for around 2300 hours. I was pissed last year when that was $30k less than what I would have gotten at a big New York firm - this year, I'm feeling pretty good because it is $30k more.

I would have just lost the extra $30k in the market anyway, and this year I think that the extra money to invest will do a little better.

This is 95/102--sorry for the double post, first post. To 98--no, I don't think so. For one thing, and not to sound like a cravath jerk, there are more than enough promising hard working associates at the firm. Also, the incoming associate is class is huge and the next one will be even larger--the largest ever. Cravath isn't going to rescind offers or layoff junior associate. I think this is a way to nudge mid and senior level associates who probably won't or don't want to make partner out the door. Cravath just announced its partners for the year--3 people, 2 in corporate, one in tax. The mid and senior level associates--the most expensive--will now have extra incentive to get out.

Sweet, the sirens are back.

absolute truth. they are a filthy train station toilet filled with homeless feces.

121 - maybe it's to remind us associates to stick around instead of leaving for greener pastures elsewhere.

135 - if you think that any firm, especially one like Skadden, would REVISE their bonus structure after announcing it because everyone else paid less, then I congratulate you on operating a computer in a permanent vegetative state.

Any news on Cleary, Davis, Simpson, Sullivan and Latham bonuses?

ORRICK FIRST YEAR, WANT TO HANG OUT LATER AND THINK OF WAYS TO SPEND OUR EXTRA $17K+?

VERY TRULY YOURS,
SKADDEN FIRST YEAR

PS: DON'T TELL THE CRAVATH ASSOCIATES, THEY MIGHT FEEL LEFT OUT.

Idiot at 156 -- If there were news, it would be posted.

Why this doesn't matter for CSM recruiting: (1) their peer firms will all match; (2) they have massive number of jr assocs, so they don't need huge classes for the next couple of years; (3) there is a long term advantage to having CSM on your resume that is worth much more than $20k (so they will still get good assocs). I do not work at Cravath.

for the love of god, someone tell me what TTT means.

and yes, this memo is real. all the associates are freaking the $hit out over here.

for the love of god, someone tell me what TTT means.

and yes, this memo is real. all the associates are freaking the $hit out over here.

56 - don't re-post, it is annoying and you are a worthless piece of s#!&. Go away.

56 - don't re-post, it is annoying and you are a worthless piece of s#!&. Go away.

this is clearly a stealth layoff

.

56 - don't re-post, it is annoying and you are a worthless piece of s#!&. Go away.

128- You clearly have no idea how bonuses work at Latham, Gibson, Kirkland, and others like them. At these firms, like every year, lots of people will do better than Cravath (and better than Skadden). Some people (but far fewer than you think) will do worse. Why is this better? Because people who worked 2400 hours aren't getting paid the same as people who sat on their ass all year. I don't mind if the corporate folks' practice is slow (and well-managed, long term thinking firms won't fire them), but why should they get paid the same as the IP litigator that put in crazy hours?

It's called a bonus. Toughen up.

56 - don't re-post, it is annoying and you are a worthless piece of s#!&. Go away.

Oh GREAT ONE, we all voted for you. Why have you forsaken us?

Idiots - this is just a PR move that they're making because you all leak memos to ATL. You think Cravath doesn't have the money to pay out bonuses equal to last year? Please.

In the famous words of mysTTTal, "you eat what you sow."

To 149: again, don't mean to sound like a cravath jerk, but even though there aren't tons of places to go, cravath associates--especially mid and senior levels--can find good places.

I expect their PPP to go down as well, otherwise their purported rationale is insincere and deceiving. We're not children. If you make almost as much money in 2008 compared to 2007 and you pocket the extra cash from reduced associate bonuses, you just got caught being extra greedy. Never mind all this 2009 doomsday crap.

I suppose there is always personal injury law . . .

haha, I'm gonna die laughing when even Cadwalader beats this.

Changing management when things go south is smart, but everyone here revelled in it stupidly shouting dissolution, now the "precious prestige" meter is effed, and its like dear in the headlights.

It's just too funny.

Is it time to put Cravath on the dissolution watch list?

133 = epic fucdouche

obama is not president - you cokehead draftdodging fucdouche bush is president for the next two months

This is just CSM's sneaky way of jacking up PPP to beat WLRK. Watch the jump.

128- You clearly have no idea how bonuses work at Latham, Gibson, Kirkland, and others like them. At these firms, like every year, lots of people will do better than Cravath (and better than Skadden). Some people (but far fewer than you think) will do worse. Why is this better? Because people who worked 2400 hours aren't getting paid the same as people who sat on their ass all year. I don't mind if the corporate folks' practice is slow (and well-managed, long term thinking firms won't fire them), but why should they get paid the same as the IP litigator that put in crazy hours this year?

It's called a bonus, and not all years are created equal for all associates.

149: Mid-levels with a Cravath pedigree might not be able to easily lateral into other V20 firms, and I agree that they won't lateral just to make an extra $30k at Skadden or Orrick, but reducing compensation might just be enough to convince a few of them to make the move in-house, to business school, or to whatever other non-law path they had secretly dreamt about. Lawyers who otherwise would have hung in to collect that one extra payday have one less excuse to stay if they are planning an eventual move.

Why don't you gloaters at Orrick and Skadden come see how much bigger my donkey schlong is going to be at K&E this year?

Was I the only person who got a really sexist vibe from Cravath? I spent the whole day interviewing there, and didn't meet a single female attorney. The only woman I saw in the office was the floozy who led me around from partner office to partner office, shaking her ass in her mini-skirt the whole way. Glad I chose Akin Gump instead.

Isn't anything ever just sedond tier TT?

Hey MysTTTal, how about a post on Clement going to K&S?

It's their damn lease. Don't you guys remember they just signed a new lease last year at $60M a year for 15 years! Now there's good market timing! On top of the decrease in business that increase in rent stomped out any cushion for associate bonuses ... they're spending $150K per associate on rent!

another reason why this might be a great move on cravath's part: clients will be very happy with cravath's decision, and it might actually draw in business from other places like, oh i don't know, skadden. business goes up and by the time this is all over, the firm is in just as good a position as ever.

and i agree that no other firms will try to exceed cravath. skadden will be the one outlier and they'll be screwed in the coming year when corporate counsels go to other firms.

Seriously, WTF is TTT?

"I expect their PPP to go down as well, otherwise their purported rationale is insincere and deceiving."
171 - 3L headed to CSM

Seriously, WTF is TTT?

TTT = Third Tier Toilet

TTT = "third tier toilet"

I can't believe people are freaking out about this. Do you mean to tell me that all of the brilliant Ivy-League educated attorneys at Cravath thought that with the worst economic crisis in 80 years, they could still expect and demand "special" bonuses for doing their job? It seemed kind of ridiculous then, even when the economy was clicking. You bet your asses those special bonuses are the first thing to go now. Between working at Cravath with only half of my super special bonus this year, and being laid off from White & Case, Mayer Brown, or any other shop, I would take the Cravath gig and thank my lucky stars.

It's like giving your kids 50 presents each at Christmas every year, and when things are tough, you give them 40 presents each, and they flip out. You're still getting 40 presents, ingrates!

STFU 29. If I just wanted a job I'd do something much more enjoyable.

Hey rookie (184/186): TTT = Third Tier Toilet .

182 is a very interesting point. Anyone have any more details on this?

Oh GREAT ONE, we all voted for you and we still worship and revere you. I beg that you forgive my audacity. But GREAT ONE may I humbly beseech thee to reconsider that higher tax thing you were talking about. I dont want to pay any more taxes. It now looks like I cant afford that vacation to Paris I was planning. Even worse, GREAT ONE, i sense the Partners, already feeling the pain of the recession, are worried they are going to get burned with a highter tax bill as well and are making us pay for it with lower bonuses. They may even start firing the secretaries and mailroom guys. Oh GREAT ONE, please help us.

Seriously, wtf is google? Seriously, you are a fuckTTTard. Seriously.

The only question is whether other V5 firms will follow Cravath or Skadden. Thus far I am happy I did not accept my offer with Cravath. I knew them hiring 162 summers couldn't be good.

I'll give Cravath the benefit of the doubt on timing. They may have done it so that their associates don't expect a $35K+ bonus for the next few weeks, and are horribly dissapointed when they pull this. Still a crummy disappointment, but better than waiting a month.

The line about 2009 is clear signal to the other firms to do the same. Zero bonuses!

Cravath system RIP

183 - disillusioned CSM associate

make no mistake - other firms will exceed CSM's bonus (i.e., Latham, K&E, etc.)

170: 149 here. I agree with you --- the cache attached to the Cravath name means associates at your firm will have an easier time than most relocating if they so choose. I guess it depends on how many people would really jump ship over a bonus stiff and what departments they work in. I am really curious to see what PPP ends up at. Tough times!

Fired Clifford Chance associates are now laughing at Cravath associates who get lower bonuses.

I am done with law. It is a bad market but next year I'm out.

cravath staff bonus - 2%

half as much as last year.

Oh GREAT ONE, we all voted for you and we still worship and revere you. I beg that you forgive my audacity. But GREAT ONE may I humbly beseech thee to reconsider that higher tax thing you were talking about. I dont want to pay any more taxes. It now looks like I cant afford that vacation to Paris I was planning. Even worse, GREAT ONE, i sense the Partners, already feeling the pain of the recession, are worried they are going to get burned with a highter tax bill as well and are making us pay for it with lower bonuses. They may even start firing the secretaries and mailroom guys. Oh GREAT ONE, please help us.

193 - Tip of the iceberg . . . the worst is yet to come. Dug your own grave!!!!

You are all a bunch of spoiled brats....grow up....I agree with comment 56....do you realize how selfish and narcissistic you all are!

You are all a bunch of spoiled brats....grow up....I agree with comment 56....do you realize how selfish and narcissistic you all are!

Engineer 1: How come we don't get bonuses?
Engineer 2: What makes you think you deserve a bonus?
Engineer 1: I don't know...i'm pretty sure I put a plastic cover on my report last week.

Legal Department: Shutup foolios, i put a plastic cover on ALL my memos. That's why I drive a Dodge RAM, and you bike to work.

You are all a bunch of spoiled brats....grow up....I agree with comment 56....do you realize how selfish and narcissistic you all are!

word is Proskauer is raising rates this year...no idea on bonuses yet

You are all a bunch of spoiled brats....grow up....I agree with comment 56....do you realize how selfish and narcissistic you all are!

Considering how some Skadden associates can't even meet their minimum billable requirement, the fact that they're paying more than Cravath, which is lockstep, matters little.

To 179--I was getting prepared to give a thoughtful response to your post til I got to your description of the "floozy". You may be happy you decided to go elsewhere, but we at Cravath are even happier.

Skadden?? CSM can start worrying when S&C or DPW exceeds (which they probably will).

You are all a bunch of spoiled brats....grow up....I agree with comment 56....do you realize how selfish and narcissistic you all are!

This can't possibly be real.

No corporate counsel is going to use Cravath simply because they screwed associates unless Cravath correspondingly drops its billing rates below those of its peers, which is what any corporate counsel actually cares about.

At the end of the day, the market will rebound, and people will remember that Cravath was the firm that screwed everyone.

Moreover, if people are legitimately upset, perhaps you should consider taking it out on their vault ranking. Drop them to 20th. Send a signal.

Wow, way to lie about paying market compensation.

Stay class Cravath.

I'm not totally surprised that Cravath lowballed their junior associates because they have way too many of them and, let's face it, they have no where else to go and don't add that much value.

But I am surprised at how that they would skimp on their senior associates. How much could it really cost them to match Skadden at the upper levels? Although corporate associates might not have great exit options right now, I could see this being enough of an insult to make a senior litigator who billed 2,500 hours this year jump ship for a boutique litigation shop.

No corporate counsel is going to use Cravath simply because they screwed associates unless Cravath correspondingly drops its billing rates below those of its peers, which is what any corporate counsel actually cares about.

At the end of the day, the market will rebound, and people will remember that Cravath was the firm that screwed everyone.

Moreover, if people are legitimately upset, perhaps you should consider taking it out on their vault ranking. Drop them to 20th. Send a signal.

This will generate 500 comments by 8pm - easy.

207;209;213 - STFU - you made your point now cork it!!!

with all the crappy news, can anyone intelligently comment on any firms contemplating rescinding offers to 3l's?

You are all a bunch of spoiled brats....grow up....I agree with comment 56....do you realize how selfish and narcissistic you all are!

word is Proskauer is raising rates this year...no idea on bonuses yet

You are all a bunch of spoiled brats....grow up....I agree with comment 56....do you realize how selfish and narcissistic you all are!

TTT = third tier trash.

now stop asking. thanks.

That would be second TT or second tier T, 180.

220... first!

hey 174,

i'm a big obama supporter. but chill the fucdouche out. seriously. the guy is just making a joke.

maybe YOU should stop taking crack.

although i do give you kudos for inventing the word fucdouche. top notch!

btw this is my first atl comment, and i promise it is my last. sorry brodez.

in my club i splash ze pot whenever ze fack i want.

166 - I work at Latham, will make my hours and will get a bonus. Thanks though.

128.

Skadden?? CSM can start worrying when S&C or DPW exceeds (which they probably will).

When S&C matches tomorrow, retaining its unique profit sharing compensation plan for senior associates, CSM will no longer be Vault #2.

You heard it here first.

Maybe they publish this to get every other firm to pay the same (because we know the market players collude like that), and then they surprise everyone by raising and saying it was a joke/pr move?

202. Very funny and you are right on. Of course law firm partners are factoring in higher taxes into the analysis. And it aint just these whiny brats who are going to suffer. Wait until they increase the minimum wage, and the partners (most good liberals themselves, of course) fire Joe Lawfirmstaffguy.

When S&C matches Skadden's 2007 structure tomorrow, while retaining its unique profit sharing compensation plan for senior associates, CSM will no longer be Vault #2.

You heard it here first.

This will generate 500 comments by 8pm - easy.

Nobody deserves big bonuses in this economy. All you spoiled brats can manage fine on your bloated salaries.

-Bitterly waiting for Obama to redistribute your salary my way

I agree with 220!!!

this seems like it would just make the high performers leave. the low performers are just happy to be employed.

High billers will be especially pissed. I predict the end of lockstep bonuses in NYC as a result.

Cravath took a bit hit in profits this year. Skadden was only down about 10% from a record 2007. This really is not that surprising.

There were several years not too long ago when Skadden paid a slightly higher base salary than all other firms. Perhaps Skadden will return to being an outlier.

202. Very funny and you are right on. Of course law firm partners are factoring in higher taxes into the analysis. And it aint just these whiny brats who are going to suffer. Wait until they increase the minimum wage, and the partners (most good liberals themselves, of course) fire Joe Lawfirmstaffguy.

To Skadden,

In the past, I have talked a lot of shit on you. I apologize. I underestimated you.

- HYS grad

Skaaden is the place to be!

I hope other firms realize that this is the time to gut Cravath. If S&C and DPW matches Skadden, no one will pick Cravath over these firms next recruiting season. Let's hope the other top firms stick a fork in Cravath.

the cravath ass will have to switch to one-ply toilet paper

if billing rates are being held at 2008 levels, why are bonuses being reduced to 2002 levels?

WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF

I can't stand getting $40k less than last year's bonus.

I was banking on this to pay off my Yale Law loans.

Jump out the window?

211 - I am happy that she decided to go elsewhere. I really doubt that she puts out the requisite amount of tail that I need to even begin tolerating a bitchy female associate. To all of those people now about to call me a sexist. Yes, I am.

cravath associates have long grown fat from the cancerous misery of their ttt counterparts. these bonus cuts have restored peace and balance in the universe. next week, your toilet paper will be switched from Charmin to generic.

-ra's al ghul

Say it ain't so that a HOFSTRA grad at SKADDEN will make more than a HARVARD grad at CRAVATH.

244 -- Dont you get it? Cravath overhired the past couple of years and already has a full summer class for 2009. They arent concerned at all about recruiting or retention implications, especially as there is nowhere else for their people to go.

$900 mil over 15 years. Enjoy your miniscule bonuses, whiners.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aar21pxL.2ow

Now that Thelen is gone, it's all about CravaTTTh.

Serves those fuckers right for making fun of the Thelen and Hellerites!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Hey 150 - thanks for sharing your expectations and sense of superiority based upon them. Now go fuck yourself you moron. What do you think a CSM associate 'expcted' this time yesterday? You may want to revise your outlook.

Say hi to your mother for me, ok?

239: "Cravath took a bit hit in profits this year. Skadden was only down about 10% from a record 2007. This really is not that surprising."

How do you know this? Fill us in on some other firms.

First

SEVENTH years at Cravath are getting a smaller bonus than FIRST years at Skadden.

Holy shit.

49, bang on

the cravath bonus memo made no mention of the PEANUTS and CHEESE they promised us earlier this week??!?! how can we get less bonus than skadden and no PEANUTS and CHEESE??

There better be a serious hit to PPP to justify this shit considering that firms with a PPP half of Cravath's seemed just fine with matching the Cravath bonus structure last year.

The idea that clients will appreciate this move is ridiculous. Law firms are a zero-sum game. If associates don't get the money, the partners do. It's not the same thing in the banks because banks have shareholders. So a client should be just as pissed at a $2.5 million PPP with crap bonuses as $2.4 PPP with Skadden bonuses (or whatever).

the cravath bonus memo made no mention of the PEANUTS and CHEESE they promised us earlier this week??!?! how can we get less bonus then skadden and no PEANUTS and CHEESE??

I WILL SERIOUSLY GO POSTAL IF THE CRAVATH PPP STAYS THE SAME OR HIGHER THIS YEAR.

-- Cravath mid-level

Its times like this I am glad I work at Weil. Thank you bankruptcy!

this bonus memo is missing something. how can cravath associates get less than skadden associates AND NO PEANUTS AND CHEESE????

How big was Cravath's summer class this year?

How big was Cravath's summer class this year?

``Rents at that level are a very strong statement of how strong this market is and how scarce space is,'' Latham said. ``I think $100 a square foot is going to look like a pretty good deal in five months.''

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

i guess im the only one who thinks this is a WISE decision on Cravaths part. Business is bad, cut back on bonuses. Makes perfect sense to me.

Id rather be at a firm who handles their finances prudently rather than one who irresponsibly gives ALL associates- most of whom do nothing all day- huge bonuses. And more importantly, Id rather retain the former firm as counsel.

How big was Cravath's summer class this year?

SICK OUT tommorow at Cheapath

about a buck sixty

I think you Cravath associates should stage a noon walk out tomorrow in protest. Better yet, don't show up tomorrow. All of yous. You might make the cover of the NYT instead of just ATL.

Seriously, it would be pretty awesome.

251: So what if they overhired. Will they just stop recruiting altogether in the next couple of years? They still need top kids from top schools, and they have to compete with DPW, S&C and other top firms. If the other firms pay more, then the top students will choose other firms, and Cravath will be forced to lower their hiring standards. You're thinking too short term. In the long term, they may lose out on top students.

Cravath didn't seem to get any of the recent deal action, and they don't do much work with sovereign wealth funds so its not so surprising that they'd be f-ed over this year.

But more true to form...

THANKS FOR THE DING CRAVATH

xoxo
spoiled whiny 2L going to S&C.
keep up the good work rodgey.

@271 - Please explain how "increasing partner payouts rather than distributing some profits to hardworking associates" is prudent financial management.

Wouldn't you announce something like this on a Friday?

CSM associates are too much of fucking pussies to not show up tomorrow. They will show up, work late, and crow about their vault ranking. They love their balloon knots to be mercilessly shoehorned by those cockbags as CSM.

271 - ITs been suggested that part of the reason Detroit's Big 3 went down was too many dividends and not enough forward looking investment.

Not a perfect analogy, but there is something there.

@273,
If you think that publicity for attorneys complaining about what look like huge bonuses to most people is going to generate a lot of positive publicity...well...think again. I suppose some negative pub for CSM is possible.

- mid-level who is terrified his firm will follow CSM

V50 associate here earning the 2007 regular bonus (no special). Thrilled to be making more than a Cravath associate. I guess Cravath associates can wipe our asses now!!

Attica, Attica, All or Nothing!!

Attica, Attica, All or Nothing!!

Any CSM ladies looking for a little extra cash on the side to supplement their meager income, stop by my place and play the rusty trombone for a few hours.

I don't work at Cravath, but its pretty annoying how quickly everyone is to relish in the misfortune or bad luck of fellow attorneys. Not cool - this same attitude reared its ugly head with respect to Hellerites and the like. What's up with the disgusting selfishness? Give it a rest - particularly since absolutely none of us have anything to do with these decisions and outcomes. Those gloating today could be steaming tomorrow at your own situation.

Have a little empathy. Or something more attractive than Schadenfreude

At least Mayer Brown had some tact... this Cravath memo is an open threat to current attorneys and incoming 2009 grads. Disgusting.

*Smiling*

-K&E Associate

Hey, if any of you are looking for any last-minute gift ideas for me, I have one. I'd like Frank Shirley, my boss, right here, tonight. I want him brought from his happy holiday slumber over there on Melody Lane with all the other rich people, and I want him brought right here, with a big ribbon on his head. And, I want to look him strait in the eye and tell him: what a cheap, lyiny, no good, rotten, four-flushing, low-life, snake-licking, dirt-eating, inbred, overstuffed, ignorant, bloodsucking, dog-kissing, brainless, dickless, hopeless, heartless, fat-assed, bug-eyed, stiff-legged, spotty-lipped, worm-headed sack of monkey shit he is! Hallelujah! Holy shit! Where's the Tylenol?"

278--People have kids, bills, mortgages, etc. Not easy just to walk out in an uncertain job market, no matter how romantic or "tough" that may sound. Seriously you have brass balls, I can tell.

150 --- BSF?

There is no way S&C goes along with this BS. No way.

Why is this so shocking? In the last couple weeks, hundreds of thousands have lost their jobs in finance. Unemployment is spiking. Millions more may lose their jobs if the American auto industry goes down. Why do lawyers expect that they are completely immune?? I understand the disappointment, but if you wanted a career totally insulated from the real economy, you should have gone to medical school. Obviously this sucks. But it's been very clear we were heading down this road for over a year. The surprise on this board shows such a detachment from reality. No wonder Cravath has to give you all a year's warning about 2009 bonuses.

Eh, I passed on K&E for a firm 10 valut slots lower. Heard the hours were batshit, and one parter was an asshole even while he interviewed me.

I feel really bad for the CSM attorneys. They all work hard and are very smart. So my anger is definitely not geared toward them but toward the greedy partners making these decisions.

I agree with 285.

287- You are gross. I hope you don't trip on the subway platform in your glee.

*smile*

279, that's not only not a "perfect analogy," it's a terrible analogy. In fact, it's the exact wrong analogy. If CSM wanted to make "forward looking investment[s]," it would seek to attract top talent by paying top of the market bonuses. Instead, it's doing the opposite.

well gosh, now i'm really nervous.

:(

-nervous T-10 1L
email job leads to nervoust101l@yahoo.com

@269/279

There's no investment at issue here, the only question is who gets the dividends: partners or associates?

288. Best post of the day.

The market is in a panic. Investors don't know what to expect with a radical, left-wing tax and spender with absolutely no experience whatsoever coming to the helm during a recession. This is the perfect environment to pull what Cravath just pulled. Those of you who voted for senator hope and change have contributed to all of our financial demise. Obama has already cost me $30k, and he hasn't even started yet. Awesome.

Guys at my high school used to deal with uncertainty regarding year-end bonuses all the time, it was no big deal.

292 - CSM partner.

Word is the decision was made mostly to stay on clients' good sides. There's been plenty of work for a lot of people at Cravath... not 2006-07 levels, but still plenty of good work. The clients just didn't want to see their law firm paying similar bonuses as last year when they've all had to have mass lay-offs.

That said... everyone is pissed!

From a PR point of view that memo is clearly a disaster ... if you have taken a hit, you can just reduce or pay no bonus at all ... but including the penultimate paragraph in such a letter and scaring people, after having brainwashed them that they are the best and that they will be treated as such is just preposterous ... Cravath acts as if it were a SINKING SHIP (is it?) ... unless their purpose was to force all these summers to whom they have extended offers to rethink joining the firm and avoid being stuck with all these people that it aggressively hired this year and has obviously realized that it may not be able to afford ... in any case, it's not WHAT YOU DO, BUT HOW YOU PRESENT IT ... Cravath may have told its associates the truth ... but THIS IS NOT A WELL TOLD TRUTH! That is the result of hubris and the fact that they did not bother diversifying their practice when they could ... whoever on board let's to digest it and get over it!

296 - Dividends are handed out in part to keep investors invested in your company, right? Especially institutional investors from what I have heard, who threaten to bail if they don't get steady short-term income.

So handing out money you should maybe hold on to to keep associates around or investors around isn't such a crazy comparison.

303 - what the hell is the difference if Partners just keep it for themselves?

Does this mean S&C will move to #2 on Vault next year??

- 2L GUNNER

292 - The issue is not the cut in bonus. The issue is that Skadden partners are absorbing the hit while Cravath partners are passing the hit to associates. Unacceptable.

V3 associate

291 is correct. You will see tomorrow afternoon.

300 - its ok to be a McCain supporter, but you can do better than that boiler-place jibberish.

From a PR point of view that memo is clearly a disaster ... if you have taken a hit, you can just reduce or pay no bonus at all ... but including the penultimate paragraph in such a letter and scaring people, after having brainwashed them that they are the best and that they will be treated as such is just preposterous ... Cravath acts as if it were a SINKING SHIP (is it?) ... unless their purpose was to force all these summers to whom they have extended offers to rethink joining the firm and avoid being stuck with all these people that it aggressively hired this year and has obviously realized that it may not be able to afford ... in any case, it's not WHAT YOU DO, BUT HOW YOU PRESENT IT ... Cravath may have told its associates the truth ... but THIS IS NOT A WELL TOLD TRUTH! That is the result of hubris and the fact that they did not bother diversifying their practice when they could ...

As a nervous T10 3L, I think this will be seen as a good move. All we should care about now is job security, and well managed firms will be able to provide that.

Cravath is -- and always has been -- fairly lean, and this is just an extension of that. They do need a bankruptcy group, though!

295 - why so bitter?

SIMPSON BUMP?!?!?!

So glad I picked Skadden...

Where's the "Ass of Cravath" douchebag now? Me thinks he's pissed his chair. Well do enjoy the dingleberry soup the partnership is serving at CSM. I heard their recipe is delicious! And make sure to clean your favorite partner's taint after your lick your bowl clean. Happy Holidays shitbird...and may you work many long nights in '09 for naught!

its done. Later NYC, Boston here I come.

Is there anyone from Cravath here that can confirm memo is real?

Is there anyone from Cravath here that can confirm memo is real?

309, what do you know??

NY TO 190!

Is there anyone from Cravath here that can confirm memo is real?

From a PR point of view that memo is clearly a disaster ... if you have taken a hit, you can just reduce or pay no bonus at all ... but including the penultimate paragraph in such a letter and scaring people, after having brainwashed them that they are the best and that they will be treated as such is just preposterous ... Cravath acts as if it were a SINKING SHIP (is it?) ... I do not know whether Cravath has told told its associates the truth ... but certainly THIS IS NOT A WELL TOLD TRUTH! That is the result of hubris and the fact that they did not bother diversifying their practice when they could ...

S&C TO PAY REGULAR + SPECIAL BONUSES AT 2007 LEVEL!!!

324 that isn't funny.

Seems unlikely, 324, seeing as how no such news is in my Outlook box yet.

Placating corporate counsel, setting the market, making a PR move . . . The simplest explanation is often the correct one people. We are in a severe recession. People have been and will continue to lose their their jobs. It is very difficult to run any business right now, let alone pay a "special bonus." If you still have a job, be thankful for that, save your money, and work your ass off for the next year.

318/319--there are several of us who have already confirmed that it is real. there is already massive talk of associates jumping ship, although I'm not sure a.) where they will go, or b.) whether this feeling will last past tomorrow. I guess the second issue depends on what S&C et al. do.

V5, V10, V20 folks Listen up.

You are all fucktards if you think Cravath is a floor! Watch S&C, DPW, Latham, and _ _ _ (insert appropriate alphabet soup) slash bonuses AND - wait for it, wait for it - withhold raises for 2009.

- I'm just saying

308---
Someone has to take the hit. If an associate seriously thinks that partners are going to put 1st year associates ahead of themselves, then it proves my point that the associate is detached from reality.

Again, it obviously sucks, but it doesn't surprise me that that partners are willing to put their summer homes above my bonus.

292

329: So you think Skadden had an unusually good year, better than the rest of the "alphabet soup"?

Man - lawyers are f'ing assholes. I feel bad for those at Cravath who aren't getting what they thought they were getting and I sincerely hope this means that they will not need to worry about the possibility of being laid off. But please, to everyone: stop with the vitriol!

S&C just announced bonuses at 2007 levels. I guess Cravath is the "floor" after all....

327 PARTNER

Cravath's Dilemma: Partners vs. Associates

- Pay out 2007 bonuses, lower PPP, incur WAY too many first years next year, pay out more bonuses, even lower PPP, piss off even some partners even more to the point they leave

- Lower bonuses, piss off associates and incoming 3Ls, some leave, increase PPP, partners stay, indeterminate effect on recruiting in an indeterminate future

I guess I can see why they went with choice two. If partners leave you are a lot more screwed than if some associates do. The only X factor is prestige/reputation with students and I'm guessing the current partners care more about themselves short term than anything else.

329, Cravath isn't a floor. Cravath is ON the floor, down on all fours, taking it brutally from Skadden.

law firms really are a different animal. there is so much stigma to laying off hoards of people in biglaw, we are seeing firms resort to rather desperate measures to avoid it (DLA giving income partners the option to become equity partners; Cravath low-balling bonuses so that everyone effectively takes a pay cut; Bryan Cave not increasing lockstep compensation until the second quarter of next year; Heller and Thelen dissolving before our eyes). every other business out there is slashing without abandon, some premptively, some ruthlessly, and law firms would still rather be passive aggressive about the whole thing.

Cravath should just have come out with an hours-based complicated multi-tiered bonus structure for every class year that no one would have been able to understand, decipher, or follow.

From a PR point of view that memo is clearly a disaster ... if you have taken a hit, you can just reduce or pay no bonus at all ... but including the penultimate paragraph in such a letter and scaring people, after having brainwashed them that they are the best and that they will be treated as such is just preposterous ... Cravath acts as if it were a SINKING SHIP (is it?) ... I do not know whether Cravath has told told its associates the truth ... but certainly THIS IS NOT A WELL TOLD TRUTH!

I realize that a lot of people here have never seen the inside of a v20 firm and don't know what they are talking about, but this is a huge deal. No firm would voluntarily depart from market pay in such a horrendous fashion if something wasn't going very wrong. The memo is an unnecessary (and seemingly intentional) PR disaster that defies logic.

One of the most important factors at a large firm is associate moral. Associates handle a large amount of boring, tedious, difficult work and moral is what determines whether they do an "ok" job or a flawless one. At the end of the day, partners have to live with what their associates produce, so this distinction is crucial. I doubt that any associates will actually leave the firm because of this, but it is inevitable that work quality is going to take a nose dive. This is also a great way to widen the rift between partners and associates, and generally make your law office a crappy place to work. This is guaranteed to hurt the firm.

In the end, one of two things will happen. The partners may end up making $3m a piece and the associates (and the ATL community, law students, etc.) will write them off as greedy. The partners also may post abysmal profits as a result of a poorly hedged firm that couldn't deal with the downturn. Either way, this spells bad news for Cravath.

Also, clients are watching PPP and NOT associate bonuses. PPP is a much larger chunk of the pie and directly tied to rising firm rates. Outsiders should view associates at firms as having the rank of a bank analyst or a associate, and partners should be viewed as MD's or higher. As a client, would you really only focus on the lower ranks of the business and ignore every employee making seven figures....of course you wouldn't, that's retarded.

I'll pour out some of my 40 tonight for all you Cravath associates.

333=BS

-125 Broad Street document drone

333 - IS THIS TRUE?

337th

331, I dont think Skadden had a better year, but I believe Skadden spoke too soon. And that my friend is the reason why Skadden has a higher bonus scale.

- I'm just saying

"Wow - boneheaded move. They're really going to let Skadden out-pay them? This should really hurt the "prestige" rankings and recruitment..."

What a stupid comment. This is either a first year or some uninformed law student. Right now- the hurt is being spread across the board. How does this affect prestige when all firms- and their clients- are feeling extreme economic pain? Recruitment? Are you saying you can't find law students from top law schools in the top third of their class to join their ranks? Employment will be so hard to get- people will be glad to join any place willing to pay so much.

You're dreaming if you think the threat of attrition or low quality recruitment is even a concern for any firm today. There are hundreds, if not thousands of lawyers in major markets with extensive experience and excellent credentials to fill a shrinking number of spots.

I don't think a lot of people on this board are in touch with how bad things are and how much worse they're going to get. Good luck all- we're all going need it.

I couldn't have asked for a better Thanksgiving surprise...Cravath, down on all fours (thanks, 336), taking it in the a$# from Skadden....and (probably) from many of the other V100 firms within the next few months.

How does it feel Cravath associates?

"Wow - boneheaded move. They're really going to let Skadden out-pay them? This should really hurt the "prestige" rankings and recruitment..."

What a stupid comment. This is either a first year or some uninformed law student. Right now- the hurt is being spread across the board. How does this affect prestige when all firms- and their clients- are feeling extreme economic pain? Recruitment? Are you saying you can't find law students from top law schools in the top third of their class to join their ranks? Employment will be so hard to get- people will be glad to join any place willing to pay so much.

You're dreaming if you think the threat of attrition or low quality recruitment is even a concern for any firm today. There are hundreds, if not thousands of lawyers in major markets with extensive experience and excellent credentials to fill a shrinking number of spots.

I don't think a lot of people on this board are in touch with how bad things are and how much worse they're going to get. Good luck all- we're all going to need it.

it astounds that folks who graduated law school and work at a firm like Sullivan are gullible to ask "really" when someone posts that they are paying 2007 bonuses. if you work there, wouldn't you know? do you think the idiot posting on the atl comments page has a better grasp of your firm's bonuses than you do?

CSM has a bankruptcy group - started nearly two years ago by former Skadden partner Rich Levin.

NY TO 190!

it's the real memo :(

-csm associate

280- what is this magical V50 firm about which you post?

It included the announcement about next year to signal to the market, you idiots - if it pays nothing next year while everyone else does, then it looks bad, but if nobody pays, then it's fine.

- guy who has done more than just liberal arts his whole life

If today is Black Thursday, Should we ALL call in sick tomorrow?

347, I believe that you may have some serious reading comprehension problems.

I think more than 190 people have been laid off already....
[busily begins tying noose for inevitable kill self moment]

347 - it astounds me that you can't conjure up interested parties that DON'T currently work at S&C. TTT's should not be allowed to comment.

Cravath can now wipe the asses of all Skadden associates....we are waiting for you guys to stop by tomorrow morning and assume the position...

339- I agree with you, except when you say "I doubt that any associates will actually leave the firm because of this". I don't think it's that easy. The memo implies that either associates will leave, or Cravath will fire them.

Somehow, seeing as certain members of my family in the construction business are teetering on the edge of bankruptcy, the prospect of a five figure bonus doesn't bother me in the least.

If you people don't learn to be happy with what you have.... well, you'll never be happy, it's that simple.

Is this a way to avoid layoffs by inducing people to leave? Maybe, but there would be costs to such a maneuver. The main problem is that the people who are most likely to leave are the best associates. They are more likely to be able to get good jobs elsewhere. This could, then, result in a situation where Cravath's best associates bolt, and it's left with a lower quality pool of associates.

even in a down year (or years) this will have a disastrous effect on recruiting. sure, crappy candidates will still happily take the 160 and CSM name, but anyone with decent credentials will pick skadden and the rest of the V20 who will match skadden.

being cheap will bite CSM in the long run

322--please, enough wishful thinking. As a mid-level cravath associate, I posted a while back that it's real. Let it go.

346: Top students at top schools still have lots of choices. If a Harvard student has offers from S&C, CSM, DPW, and Skadden, and if the other firms pay Skadden like bonus, while CSM doesn't, who do you think this student is likely to pick? Probably not CSM. Sure there are lots of other students, but if CSM wants the best legal talent they have to compete with others to get it. Then again it's all moot now, because S&C et. al may simply match CSM. Then Skadden will be getting all the best students.

K&E--with the class, 2250 hours--told to expect AT LEAST 50% more than last year! WHOO HOO!!! MY bonus may be enough for me to hire a Cravath first year to do my work for me. Suck it, suckas!!!!!!!!!!!

doesn't matter whether 347 was talking about sullivan associates or not. obv, it's not true that sullivan announced it's bonuses and the only mention of it is some random post on this board.

Cravath must have been VERY concerned somebody was going to up Skadden's numbers. The reality in NYC is that there are a number of "follower" firms who sell themselves as paying "market" bonuses. A market bonus is the highest bonus paid by lockstep firms (which includes Skadden because their billable requirement is very low). This means the large majority of Cravath's peer firms will pay better bonuses than what's above. And in the end, Cravath will pay what Skadden is paying. But for some reason they just took a huge PR hit to make sure no one goes above those numbers,

If the Cravath whack is an attempt to motivate an exodus from the firm, then the partners will make-off doubly well: (1) cust bonuses and (2) save the money on severance

All associates should sit on their asses and wait to get canned...collect the severance and unemployment (no unemployment if you quit)

I think we all know what needs to be done:

UNIONIZE!

365, it matters to whether 347 revealed him or herself to be a mental incompetent.

Mo' money, mo' problems.

Cravath partners are greedy bastards...they're take home will be that much more, bullshit....it still won't make up for losses they have in the market, but it will help.

Does anyone know if Cravath told a well told truth?

If Cravath is really hoping for forced attrition, then they will not only save on bonuse payouts for 2008, but they also get to avoid having to pay out severances, as well as potentially getting out of paying bonuses for 2009.

Every firm out there right now is predominantly thinking in terms of cash flow (or lack thereof) right now.

364 -

Who'd you hear that from??

K&E NY assoc.

So glad I took Kirkland (non-NY office) over CravaTTTh. 6th-7th year Kirkland associates (or nonequity partner) across all offices on average makes 80k+ more than equivalent Cravath associates

Prediction: Kirkland bonuses will match or nearly match WLRK in 2009.

Cravath partners are greedy bastards...their take home will be that much more, bullshit....it still won't make up for losses they have in the market, but it will help...fuckers caused me to make a typo

Cravath = TTT in decline.

The memories of the people on this board may be too short, but isn't Cravath the firm that tried (and failed) to lead the market into NO bonus in 2001 when the market was in the tank? I seem to recall they did an early no bonus announcement to try to lead the rest of the field there, but none of the players followed.

I might be wrong, and I'd love it if someone who remembers can enlighten me.

I wonder how much of this has to do with the recent outbreak of Somali piracy.

Does anyone really think that Weil, DPW, Paul Weiss, S&C, etc., ad nauseum, will really let Skadden pay more out in bonuses? What is the partnership at CSM thinking?

378: That was DPW and not Cravath. And in fact they did pay bonuses that year, after all the other firms announced that they will still pay.

364 - you're dreaming, buddy.

- K&E associate

the funniest thing will be when the rest of the V20 matches skadden and then cravath miraculously "finds" some money to match market. cant wait for that memo

wachtell associate here. skadden people need to shut up. this is the one arguably good thing that has ever happened to your otherwise shitty firm. even after all this has happened, i would gladly go to cravath over skadden - it's a no brainer. your average cravath associate is far more competent than your average skadden associate and probably has a lot more class.

stop gloating - it really shows how crass you are and just further reinforces the general perception of skadden as a bad firm with douchey associates.

What affect will this have on IP firms? None of the layoffs reported on this blog appear to come from this practice group.

Cravath is not what it used to be. It will NEVER recover. Prestige-wise.

Even if PPP hits obscene high numbers in 2010, Cravath would just be thought of with the same ballpark reputation-wise as Cadwalader or Wilson Sonsini in their bubbles.

Cravath has made a mistake of huge scale and impact.

Skadden will never have the prestige that Cravath once had. But now it looks like no firm in Biglaw ever will again.

I don't know anything about how compensation works at Cravath. I assume those bonus amounts are not work effort bonuses (i.e. you billed a certain amount, good for you) but just extra compensation awarded at the end of the year?

384 = cravath associate (now 17.5k poorer)

The term TTT originated as a way for the students of Penn St.'s Philadelphia campus, considered the superior location, to distinguish themselves from those at the State College campus. The Philadelphia Penn students refer to the State College campus as a Third Tier Toilet although, technically, both are part of the same institution.

385 - you should learn the proper use of "affect" vs. "effect"

*furiously checks want ads in light of reason news...being a call girl never looked so good*

-nervous T-10 1L
email job leads to nervoust101l@yahoo.com

384 - A real Wachtell associate would be too busy to post on ATL

What's sad is that the 7th year at Cravath earns less than a first year at Skadden bonus wise!

Cravath-ites should have studied that extra day in law school and earned that A+ along with the WLRK offer--cost them a few hundred grand.

Bonuses are a big deal. Given that Cravath and Sullivan are always the two market leaders (in terms of announcing bonuses first usually), I wouldn't be surprised if partners at the top firms have talked over what they plan on doing. Maybe Cravath partners have already been assured Sullivan and Davis Polk will match them? Just a thought.

Let's put this in perspective: a Skadden STUB YEAR who started in September '08 will earn almost as much as a CSM first year who just finished a full 12 month slog.

My roommate from law school is at Kirkland (NY). According to him, average billing and average rated first years will be getting close to 50k.

WTF? I had no idea Kirkland rocked out the compensation.

CravaTTTH. If my V10 firm hits Skadden bonus levels, I will call up the partner would dinged me at Cravath and laugh. I will call him up and LAUGH.

love how people last year were bitching and arguing if they would spend $3000 on a nice 1-bedroom. ha, bet that won't happen this year. get a studio.

400th!

the day has finally come for Cravath to wipe MY ASS

how is prestige going to go down? certainly not in the eyes of the clients ... maybe in the eyes of associates and law students but they dont really count in the end

I bet DPW & S&C will match Cravath rather than Skadden. These three firms are always sticking with each other, for better or for worse.

I hate to say this, but for the first time in my life I have some (repeat some) respect for Skadden.

Cravath was supposed to be the best, the infallible, the top. Just goes to show that the mighty must fall.

As a cravath associate, let me say, i'm not sure why cravath even gets any props in terms of bonuses. okay, maybe they charged out of the gate last year but played catch up for at least the two years prior to that, in a rather pathetic way. cravath wants to hang on to its prestige status but in truth is managed by the same kind of greedy, insecure partners. and because there are so few partners per associate--meaning the partners do almost nothing other than contemplate (largely theoretical) strategy and read newspapers while associates do all the work--the partners are still going to absolutely clean up this year while the firm screws associates and does everything it can to get them to leave, short of a pr layoff.

skaTTTen is sTTTill skaTTTen

*can't stop shaking from the fact that no firm is going to want to hire a nervous 1L even though i have good grades*

:(

-nervous T-10 1L
email job leads to nervoust101l@yahoo.com

Does this mean that Cravath will start interviewing at my law school--UPenn State??

UPenn State 1L

I think the bedbug situation at Cravath will hurt their prestige more in the long run. I mean, jesus, fucking bedbugs. Clean up your act guys and stop running your firm like a Holiday Inn.

407 - you have no grades yet.

410: nervous t10 1l is a michigan summer starter, as least he claims.

While I think the other New York firms will eventually match Skadden, its going to take a couple of weeks. I can't imagine what 6th and 7th years at Cravath are feeling right now.

Skadden rulz

411 - sorry I missed that important piece of biography.

As a Cravath alum, the firm isn't trying to "lead the market" into no bonus by saying that there might not be one next year. They did the same thing in 2001 - and the reason they do it is to warn associates to adjust their expectations accordingly.

Concerned T-10 1L......413th!!!!!!!!!!! Hell Ya!!

412, if you think Cravath is going to back down from THAT scare memo, think again. Nor will Skadden cut announced bonuses.

Someone is getting left out in the cold. The only question is whether Skadden will look like a profligate spender, or whether Cravath will look like a bunch of cheap, greedy bastards.

The answer will come tomorrow when S&C announces.

This move by Cravath and too many of the comments make me embarrassed to be a lawyer. Sure finance is laying people off but so is law. People left in finance are taking home bonuses that are 40% less than last year. The most pain is being felt at the top. Why? Because the people that are left are perceived to be valuable. Lawyers can feel superior to their clients on the basis of being smarter than their clients. But, their clients have the balls to demand proper compensation and the intelligence to make the big decisions. The move by Cravath shows that partners have the same low opinion of their lawyers as the clients do. And people grovel here about being glad to have a job. Ever hear the cliche, better to die like a man than to live like a dog. Disgusting. If I get fucked on my bonus I am done.

two words for you: williams & connolly. The NEW #2 (or some would even argue #1) firm in the land. They pay MORE than cravath IN DC, you get better training and more prestige. Bam.

Watch--S&C and DPW will follow Cravath. Then, so will every other NYC firm.

these pretzels are making me 418thsies!!!

Shut up, 415!!! ur just a bitter Cravathian!!! you suck!!!

If S&C, DPW and the rest of the few top tier firms match Skadden, do you think Cravath will be forced to match? Will they look weaker making a belated match, or will they look weaker being an outlier paying half the market (for top tier firms) bonus?

I can tell you, cravath has "scared down" from other bonus announcements. adding a couple grand here and there. come on, it's pathetic and i've been there for quite a while

come on 500

How many 2Ls are calling Cravath tomorrow to decline their offers????

Great news, 418, I hope you (and many others like you) do leave, so that there will be room for us 3L's next year.

Firms should be doing anything in their power right now -- including slashing bonuses -- to avoid having to fire current associates and revoke offers to 3L's.

I suspect that Cravath is simply being prudent. They will end up on top, as always, because they will be seen as providing job security. When the DOW hits 6,000 in a few months, and the real bloodbath begins in the V50, you will all appreciate the foresight of Cravath.

HAHAHAHA

YOU OVERPAID FUCKERS HAD IT COMING!!!

CRY FOR US!

CRY FOR MY AMUSEMENT YOU LITTLE BITCHES!

Some probably will 426, and others will be kicking themselves for already accepting CSM over others. But it's a drop in the bucket for CSM.

Gotta pay that lease! Hahahaha!!

426, that may be the whole point.

First? Doh!

Fried Frank to free cheese and peanuts!!!

BOOO HOOOO!!!

GIVE ME MY BONUS!! I DEEEEESERVE MY BONUS!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Does anyone remember when DPW tried to lowball the market back in the early 2000's? And then got summarily slammed by everyone else - them embarrasingly gave the bonus anyway?

History may repeat itself.

And it did not affect DPW recruiting in any way.

Plus, those people are now senior associates getting screwed

Does anyone remember when DPW tried to lowball the market back in the early 2000's? And then got summarily slammed by everyone else - them embarrasingly gave the bonus anyway?

History may repeat itself.

And it did not affect DPW recruiting in any way.

Plus, those people are now senior associates getting screwed

YOU GET NOTHING THIS YEAR.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

BUTTT Cravath still has Prestttige Pointtts

what other firms will follow skadden?

The people posting as K&E associates are bullshitting you -- though one can't possibly conceive as to their incentives...

As an actual K&E second year in NYC, I can tell you that none of us have any idea what our bonuses will be...

~ An ACTUAL K&E NYC associate

Fried Frank to free cheese and peanuts!!!

S&C is having a record year.....

S&C is having a record year.....

Where is Loyola 2L when you need him?

Obviously Cravath partners lost a ton more in the market than their Skadden counterparts, and now are feeling incredibly insecure and greedy. They won't take a hit in recruiting, not by much at least. And they'll just have a bunch of angry associates walking around. But they don't care about that. The senior associates at Cravath are beyond pissed. There are so few of them left, and I know a few who were considering leaving before (after all there has only been 1 partner in litigation in the last several years), so who knows who's going to be around now. Maybe Cravath wants some summer offers to get rejected, and some juniors to leave. But there is no way they want their incredibly competent and hard working senior associates (from whom the partners make a good chunk of their money), most of whom have made contacts at other peer firms. But that just could be what happens.

438: None.

DPW, STB, et al will go the way of Skadden.

Lumps of coal= bonus.

438 - Prudent or not, firms will jump at the chance to top Cravath

Cravath will start stealth layoffs before April 1st.

Anyone want to disagree?

I'll bet money on it.

427? Prudent? If CSM is having a bad year this year, fine. But if this year didn't suck (i.e., PPP goes up), then the only "prudence" they are exercising is that of stockpiling the partners bank accounts (instead of the associates) to prepare for the year to come.

Where is ASS OF CRAVATH?

CravaTTTh - tell me how my ASS TASTE!!!

Cravath is trying to get people to leave. It will then pay a bonus in April/May to those that are still around. That is, of course, if armageddon hasn't started yet.

CravaTTTh- seriously now

TELL ME HOW MY ASS TASTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

crTTTavath!!! LOL. LULZ! skattten.

TTT!!!

Im a lawyer!

goddammit, why didnt I study harder for the MCAT? Im officially poised to join the biggest fucking conglomeration of losers on the planet

i mean planeTTT

Cravath should be embarrassed.

Cahill
Cleary
Cravath
DPW
Debevoise
Paul Weiss
Simpson
Sullivan
Weil
Willkie

These firms will match Skadden

I'm still waiting for definitions on cheese, peanuts, and pretzels. Effers.

i can't get my head around this.. an 8th year makes less bonus this year than what a 1st year did last year?! that seems nonsensical, but i guess 17,000 is better than being laid off.

dp? simpson? latham? kirkland? verrry anxious to see how the other big boys follow

two words for you: williams & connolly. The NEW #2 (or some would even argue #1) firm in the land. They pay MORE than cravath IN DC, you get better training and more prestige. Bam.

Plus, lawyers at w&c actually enjoy practicing law and aren't doing doc review all day like at skadden. DC rules!!! The new center of power!! WHY would you live like a freakin peasant in NY working your butt off at cravath in NYTTTC?

453
http://businesssheet.alleyinsider.com/2008/11/if-you-think-your-doc-is-sad-you-re-right

MCAT is even worse idea than LSAT. extra year of school. plus residency up to 4 more years at same hours for 40K.

Then less money. And touching dirty sick people.

have fun.

455:

Cravath didn't match Skadden. Check the point of this thread.

i can't get my head around this.. an 8th year makes less bonus this year than what a 1st year did last year?! that seems nonsensical, but i guess 17,000 is better than being laid off.

dp? simpson? latham? kirkland? verrry anxious to see how the other big boys follow

363: Right- so Skadden's incoming class can accommodate all the top performing legal students in the country and leave the other firms with the garbage? The top 10% of the top 25 law schools is how big- about 1,000 students? That's the summer class of 15-20 V100 firms.

Wake up. Firms are always going to attract people no matter what they do. So you with the 4 other offers will say no- but the 20 other guys with credentials just as impressive as yours will gladly jump in.

Hey CravaTTTH associates!

I'll give you a bonus if you do a good job photocopying my balls!!!!

first

Anyone know how many summers Cravath is expecting this summer? Can't possibly be the same large class as 2008 right???

459 - disagree. Doctors in the right specialties who can tolerate working in areas where they are scarce can make salaries topping 500K. In their early 30s. That might be worth suffering through your late 20s on Bud light, no sleep, and having to plow nurses who detest you.

AHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

Why didn;t I wait another week before accepting my offer?!

who are you fucktards who think simpson will match skadden? have you not noticed that they're having a particularly ass-bad year?

wtf is 455 talking about?

Damn. AND my taxes are going to be raised?

NY to anywhere else!

339 i think you mean morale, not moral.

467, I bet you're that kid who just turned down my firm for CSM. Enjoy it when we match Skadden tomorrow!

I affirm 468's sentiment.

-STB Associate

Hey all you K&E braggarts--why don't you wait until you get your bonuses before you start crowing.

I'm not sure how any law firm so heavily invested in private equity (which is pretty dead right now) is going to be a generous as you suggest.

I affirm 468's sentiment.

-STB Associate

472 - I just might be. You win.

So I could work at Skadden in Wilmington or Chicago or wherever and 1) make a bonus higher than CSM, 2) not have to worry about the MTA cutting my train service b/c no funding, 3) not pay NYC city income tax, 4) not pay the AMT and acutally have itemized deductions and, 5) not live in a shoebox, have a car, and have a life?

466
Have you seen nurses these days? Dude, this isn't even the 1980s anymore.

Second, click my link and then tell me I'm wrong.

Medicare is cutting funding ever year. They are the people who pay for residencies. So it is harder and harder to get that prime orthoped slot. Competing with the ultimate dorks/losers.

Not everyone gets to be a plastic surgeon in Beverly Hills.

This have changed even from a decade ago. So yes - mid 90s, you are mostly right.

Now, especially with coming Health care reform. It's HMO type pain for most Doc's from now on.

But yes. Nurses in the day were effing hot.

462: Firms don't want top 25 school students. They want top 6 students at the top of their class, and top 5% at t-10. If you look at the stats for v10 firms, you'll see that this is generally the case.

Plus, my assumption was that DPW, S&C and the rest match Skadden. If that is the case, the best students will go to those firms, and Cravath will then have to go deeper and to lower ranked schools. So they won't get too many HYS students or t-6 students who are at the top.

layoffs at latham tomorrow; you heard it here first

Having a Bad Year: CSM, STB, White & Case, S&S, Mayer, WLRK(?), assorted TTTs.

Having a Great Year: S&C(?), Weil . . . who else???

Probably Dissolving on or before 12/31/2008: CWT.

On a day when multiple associate layoffs have been announced across the country, I find it somewhat ridiculous that some associates are griping that they won't get huge bonuses this year. Some of these bonuses alone are what other people make in a whole year. Associates get paid quite enough to live comfortably within their means.

479 is correct and that is the way it should be

the last few years, with "top 80%" at shitholes like brooklyn, northwestern, etc being sufficient for vault 5 is OVER

and thank God for that

What an 8th Avenue Shithole. You'd think the firm saved money by not updating its website since 2003. Would be funny to see Seyfarth Shaw top Cravath's bonuses.

Transactional Nostradamus here. This appears to be legit. Next indicators of Doom: Congressional failure to save Big Three Automakers, followed by the worst Christmas retail results since Carter. Rome is burning and I lost my fiddle. . .

466
You forget Biglaw partners can top 5MM too.
Just as likely as you becoming cardiology top doc pulling down 1-1.5MM.

Milbank will match Skadden

Willkie's doing okay for itself this year... Not a record-shattering like the past 18 but still solid.

480 - i have heard similar rumors; are you an associate there?

-2l summering there

V&E NY will match Skadden

500!!!!!!!!!!!!!

481: Top DC Firms in the great year category.

Say what you want about Cravath's bonuses. But you are insane if you think most firms will top it. Here is my call any firm that tops Cravath lays off in 2009.

2008 was a joke with the number of financial firms in trouble. The bleeding will come in 2009. Cravath's partners realize that.

~NY Associates to Hooverville

482
The problem is that is Cravath is fucking people on bonuses and White & Case is laying people off...So it means

No one is safe. Not today. Not long term.

Canary in the coal mine. Not just bitching about a CravaTTTH dbag partner fucking you over for 17K just to keep PPP at 2 million. But that too....

BREAKING NEWS: Kaye Scholer matches Skadden- but pays in food stamps

500!!!!!

NO WAY MILBANK MATCHES SKADDEN.

Milbank is not doing great. Not awful, but definitely not great.

483- you are a loser

Texas firms in general had a pretty great year.

500

500 bitches!

500!!!!!!!

500.

493:
Top DC firms? Hogan is bleeding man...Bleeding...and not smart enough to fix it.

500! plbzt.

Willkie's doing okay for itself this year... Not a record-shattering like the past 18 but still solid.

Oh, I get it, so you replace the T with TTT every time. Wow, that is really clever. You deserve a big fat bonus.

500! plbzt.

504

Williams, Covington, and Wilmer all having strong years

If you love your work, it shouldn't matter. If you don't, you already have enough reasons to quit. In any event, quit yr bitchin'.

490 - but aren't TX associates going to get a box of Omaha steaks?

And won't NYC match Skadden if Skadden did in fact set market and they are not an outlier to the Cravath-market?

I'd just like you all to recognize my impeccable timing; I AM THE TRUE 500.

483- you are a loser

507

Cravath associate here - there are a number of associates who are mighty fucked off at the moment. Certain teams in the firm have been crushing it this year (litigation in particular) and the general consensus is that revenue will be close to that of last year (remember the second half of last year was pretty quiet also). While no one I have spoken to intends on leaving in the short term, commitment to the firm will be severely tested and partners may discover that the desire to exceed expectations quickly vanishes when the only thing to show for it is a new extension to the partner's CT mansion ...

499
Oil hit 48 bucks. RE is in the crapper. M&A is dead.
TX firms are NOT having a great year even with PPP's half to one third that of NYC firms already.

But it is cheap to live there!

506 pblzt.

for the law students posting who are worried of the impact this will have on recruiting, that is the point. firms hire two years in advance and didn't anticipate that they would have so many bodies while the economy is sinking. firms want to deleverage like everyone else, but it is easier for them to do so this way rather than having to lay off or rescind offers.

when [if ever] things pick up to previous levels, firms can always re-adapt then. given how up and out the law firm model is, midlevels and seniors are going to be gone anyways when the economy picks up, there will still be enough current juniors left, and clueless law students pick firms based on the most recent year's vault and bonus numbers anyways.

this is just Cravath's way of adapting to the new uncertain world out there, and what looks like will be a painful last quarter of 2008 and potentially even more painful 2009.

"I think that it is a great thing that CravaTTTh is doing. By taking away from those whose salaries are less than $250,000 and giving back to those partners with salaries above $250,000 the government will be able to collect far more under my new tax plan . . ."

- President-elect Obama

Shit, Mav, do you have that number for that trucking company commercial we saw last night, SuperTruckers? Yeah, I may need that...

Did 483 put Brooklyn and Northwestern in the same sentence? 483 just have been typing with multiple cocks in his mouth.

Did 483 put Brooklyn and Northwestern in the same sentence? 483 just have been typing with multiple cocks in his mouth.

504 -- by "top dc firms", i think he meant williams&connolly and covington.

how/why is hogan bleeding, out of curiosity?

500!!!!!!!

W&C may be having a strong year...

But Cov and Wilmer DC are very much not.

Is it better to burn out or fade away?

my oh my how things can change in 24 hours. Joe Flom is toasting to himself tonight.

How is Debevoise doing this year?

487 - Take another crack pipe hit, and I hope you are right, but once Cravath has screwed the pooch for us like this, the rest of its "peers," including Milbank, Debevoise, etc., will be happy to "match" Cravath Swine & More. The sky is falling counselor. . .weaker partners with smaller books or no biz at top 20 firms are going to be forced out next year, and before that happens, hundreds more lawyers at the associate and counsel level will be canned. . .Forget about reputational issues, law students will be lucky to be employed and will readjust (as we all are) to the new shitty reality we live in. The good days are over.

It's great to be in Texas. Don't even need to receive a bonus and still take home more pay than Skadden at full bonus, once you factor in taxes.

521, excellent. Cravath associate here. Not so pissed off myself, but then again, I'm a junior associate. The senior associates that are making only 10k more in bonus than the first years, but bringing in hundreds of thousands more? They're pissed off. And since they run absolutely everything around here, I really don't want to go to work tomorrow.

so...it could be worst. $175K for the year, still doing better than my parents combined...however this makes me rethink working at a v50 firm. I avoided the v20, thinking I would have a better "quality of life" and would make the same amount of money. Seeing this vulnerability of the top notch firms, the bottom v50 is who don't pay market bonuses is looking mighty appealing. Anybody know if Baker & Hostetler is hiring?

As a Cravath associate, I am seriously ticked off. To be sure hours are down this year (I'm on a 2100 hour pace), but I know the firm's been pretty busy as a whole. No one expected the special bonus of last year, but everyone expected the 'mighty' CSM to at least match Skadden. But of course the greedy fucking partners have screwed us by using the poor economy as a cover for below-market bonuses - if their PPP figures are not down substantially, there are gonna be a LOT of incredibly pissed off associates.

531 - long live V&E . . . cost-o-living calculator = $377,000 equivalent N.Y. salary

- V&E 1st Year

THE SKY IS FALLING !! THE SKY is FALLING !

487 - Take another crack pipe hit, and I hope you are right, but once Cravath has screwed the pooch for us like this, the rest of its "peers," including Milbank, Debevoise, etc., will be happy to "match" Cravath Swine & More. The sky is falling counselor. . .weaker partners with smaller books or no biz at top 20 firms are going to be forced out next year, and before that happens, hundreds more lawyers at the associate and counsel level will be canned. . .Forget about reputational issues, law students will be lucky to be employed and will readjust (as we all are) to the new shitty reality we live in. The good days are over.

524,
Everything non-lit Hogan is not doing great. (NoVa office is doing OK surprisingly corporate -wise. OK for the crap work they do)

But lots of unhappy/unbusy folks leaving for the Metro Center stop earlier than normal these days.

Partners pretend everything is going to be fine, but I smell bullshit everyday.

Where does Weil figure into this? They must be having at least as good a year as Skadden and will add another player at the high-end of bonuses (thus building momentum for "peer" firms).

i doubt other firms, except maybe simpson, will join CSM. if you see that 1) CSM has the highest PPP of its peers and can thus easily afford a year or two of inflated bonuses, 2) CSM announced a day after skadden, and 3) the firm has 80 partners and summer classes of 160, it's obvious that this was a deleveraging move, not a bad-economy move.

540!

WEIL will step up and match Skadden - mark my words

Fried Frank to free cheese and peanuts!!!