"God-damn America" isn't that funny.

SECOND to skadden

Simpson has had an absolutely shitty year. Hopefully S&C will match Skadden.

If S&C and Davis Polk match Skadden, then SURELY Cravath will match so as not to get 1-upped by all of its peer firms.

THANKS CRAVATH!

what a complete waste of money on Skadden's part. fine, good for those associates, but they could've saved themselves a ton of money.

Ugly.

scooped by autoadmit. sad times.

Agree with 2. Snappier lede, please.

How's Simpson's bankruptcy practice?

Seems like a better indicator of bonuses should be 1) how robust your BFR and litigation practices are and 2) whether you made the decision to base your entire client base on the financial sector, thus screwing yourself out of all the bankruptcy transactions and adversary proceedings.

STB and CSM's peer firms are Cadwalader and Thatcher Proffit. The TTT parade is in full swing.

What will bonuses look like for non-NY based firms? I know they'll probably be ugly, but how ugly will they be exactly?

"Simpson, you'll notice, didn't even bother to explain themselves like Cravath did"

Simpson probably knows that its associates aren't stupid.

What do you expect after the Cravath announcement? Any other course of action
would be equivalent to throwing money away.
The Cravath announcement provided cover to
the rest of the V20.

It's amazing to me the amount of entitlement people feel. Look around you. Your bonus is your job. We are in a severe economic downturn. Adjust your expectations and lifestyles accordingly.

It's amazing to me the amount of entitlement people feel. Look around you. Your bonus is your job. We are in a severe economic downturn. Adjust your expectations and lifestyles accordingly.

I chose Simpson over Skadden. Goddamnit.

Simpson partners told everyone that it was having one of its best years ever. So they're either liars or cheapskates.

CHICAGO PWNS NYC. SAME BASE SALARY AND NOW SAME BONUS. ENJOY YOUR $2500 STUDIOS.

It's amazing to me the amount of entitlement people feel. Look around you. Your bonus is your job. We are in a severe economic downturn. Adjust your expectations and lifestyles accordingly.

So the point of this is supposedly is that IB is "hurting" and god forbid us lowly lawyers get a bonus while, IB is "hurting"....

I'll keep that in mind the next time some IB brokered deal puts a bunch of working stiffs out of work and then proceed to reward themselves with huge bonus...

Damn you Cravath!.

This is an opportunity for other firms to really stand out. I hope they take it. It's unconscionable to cut associate comp by so much if PPP's don't take the same proportional dive.

It's amazing to me the amount of entitlement people feel. Look around you. Your bonus is your job. We are in a severe economic downturn. Adjust your expectations and lifestyles accordingly.

Gotta say, a $20-25k bonus is a hell of a lot better than the crap bonuses I got at my firm before I left for better pastures. I would have killed for a bonus of that size.

Please. My firm isn't even going to give the staff its measly $500 holiday bonus. I'd love to get $25,000 just for showing up for work every day. You attorneys are so spoiled!

What does Weil do? Ball's in your court Weil. Make yourself elite.

Please. My firm isn't even going to give the staff its measly $500 holiday bonus. I'd love to get $25,000 just for showing up for work every day. You attorneys are so spoiled!

"It's amazing to me the amount of entitlement people feel. Look around you. Your bonus is your job. We are in a severe economic downturn. Adjust your expectations and lifestyles accordingly."

We are in a severe economic downturn. Is it that surprising that every additional dollar (or lack thereof) is significant enough to gripe over?

Agree with 2. Snappier lede, please.

Skadden pwns STB.

Please. My top tier law firm isn't even going to give its staff the traditional $500 holiday bonus. I'd love to get $25,000 just for showing up for work every day as a law school graduate. You attorneys are so spoiled!

Cholent!! -- mmmmmmmmmm

25/27 -- You are staff and contribute nothing but noise and Solitaire-playing to your firm's bottom line. Who gives a fuck if you get your piddling bonus?

STB is full of assholes anyway.

I like the Lede, good job mystall

18:

(a) they never said that, and (b) anyone who believed them is an idi*t. Private Equity is a huge part of their corporate practice and neither KKR nor Blackstone has done a deal since early '08. If you're at STB and didn't see this coming, you were not paying attention.

The best bonus in this environment is not being laid off. Be realistic. We are in the middle of something that could lead to another Great Depression.

25/27 -- You are staff and contribute nothing but noise and Solitaire-playing to your firm's bottom line. Who gives a fuck if you get your piddling bonus?

"Not God Bless America, God-damn America. "
This site has really gone to Hell and this is the last straw.

Its amazing to me that people still don't know that you only need to push the "Post Comment" button only once. Seriously...14,16,20,23...spaz out much?

"Not God Bless America, God-damn America. "
This site has really gone to Hell and this is the last straw.

"Not God Bless America, God-damn America. "
This site has really gone to Hell and this is the last straw.

Lots of people were hatin in June of 2007 by writing the following:

"Williams & Connolly pays no bonus, and 180k/yr is still much lower than 1st yr. associates make at most other top firms."

Funny how things change!

This fucking sucks. Fuck Cravath, Fuck Simpson. Help me Sullivan & Cromwell; you're my only hope.

Its amazing to me that people still don't know that you only need to push the "Post Comment" button only once. Seriously...14,16,20,23...spaz out much?

Its amazing to me that people still don't know that you only need to push the "Post Comment" button only once. Seriously...14,16,20,23...spaz out much?

Its amazing to me that people still don't know that you only need to push the "Post Comment" button only once. Seriously...14,16,20,23...spaz out much?

Its amazing to me that people still don't know that you only need to push the "Post Comment" button only once. Seriously...14,16,20,23...spaz out much?

Suck it Big Law!!!

Is there any point in working in NYC anymore?

Its amazing to me that people still don't know that you only need to push the "Post Comment" button only once. Seriously...14,16,20,23...spaz out much?

Its amazing to me that people still don't know that you only need to push the "Post Comment" button only once. Seriously...14,16,20,23...spaz out much?

I'm with 24. My firm's bonus for showing up and meeting the minimum billing threshold...$5k. And we're AmLaw 100, too.

Its amazing to me that people still don't know that you only need to push the "Post Comment" button only once. Seriously...14,16,20,23...spaz out much?

It's fairly hard for me to believe that people are complaining about these bonuses when you consider the economy. Not only do you work at a Vault 10 firm and don't really have to worry about losing your job, you complain that on top of your first year salary of 160k, you ONLY get 17.5 as a bonus. Spoiled much?

Daily Math Reminder:

Skadden = Cravath + Simpson - (low associate morale)

FU CRAVATH.

Elie -- Put down your cruller, get in the Fat-mobile, and get your jiggly ass over to STB and assess the situation. We need more information!

50: No. Without high bonuses and higher pay, there is no economic benefit to working in NY because the COL and taxes are so much higher.

Fear not! The ONE will pass legislation mandating higher bonuses. He said he was for wealth distribution. Surely we are worthy.

27 - take three years off, take on 150k in debt, go to law school and get the appropriate grades. Then you can make the same money for walking in.

Weil will do what everyone else does. Which in this economy will be to follow Cravath (and now simpson)

14/16/20/23: It is perfectly legitimate to gripe about getting less money than you thought you would. It is also perfectly legitimate to be upset IF firms are having good years and just stiffing associates (granted, it is not clear whether or not this is true - yet). But the bottom line is, just because the economy sucks doesn't mean we have to like it.

20/22: Agreed. What do you want? A bonus or a job... your choice. Pick wisely

Comment of the Day = 56.

44, you are clearly a law student so get over yourself. You are not going to see a penny of the 2008 bonus season so why don't you sit back, relax and roll a doobie. Clearly you need it given how uptight you are.

The amount of interest you people have in this is one of the things I hate most about my profession.

"This fucking sucks. Fuck Cravath, Fuck Simpson. Help me Sullivan & Cromwell; you're my only hope."

No Davis Polk?

At least they are paying their people from the class of 2001 a whole $2,500 more than "half-skadden"!!! What a fucking joke.

50 + 59-- what about the benefits of networking/experience for long-term earning power? Isn't that what you're looking for at the beginning of a career anyway?

50, 59, it never made "economic" sense to work in NYC, even when NYC paid the full bonus last year. Most of us are not here for the money.

Sorry about your tiny pink brain and its lack of math skills, bro.

50 -- of course there's still a point to working in NYC! Where else can you live in a 600 sqft studio, not be able to own a car, have almost 50% of your salary taxed away, and make the equivalent of $90k compared to a comparable lawyer in Dallas? That's awesome!!! And at least you get to go to Broadway and the best night clubs, though you might not be able to afford it. And the people in NY are really friendly and down to earth.

Oh yeah -- and at least the NY Bar is one of the easiest in the country, second only to CA.

67: Selling your possessions and giving away money in randomly placed envelopes? Didn't think so.

Uh, Gd damn America isnt really funny.

Associates at rock solid diversified firms like williams and Connolly and jones day are going to come out way ahead this year.

I'm 44 - not a law student. I know the economy is bad, but I want money. Is that so wrong?

Well then 67, go work in public interest law and "change the world." This is a blog about large (generally NYC) law firms, and is largely populated by attorneys working for such firms or law students hoping to one day work for such firms. Why the hell wouldn't we have an interest in our compensation, you douche-monkey?

When do the new PPP numbers come out?

There must be somebody left who will match skadden. Milbank (they were first to announce in 2006)? S&C? Paul Weiss (I think they have matched early in the recent years)? One more top 6-8 firm matches CSM and we are doomed...

WHAT THE HELL CAN I BUY WITH JUST 175.5K?!?!?!?!/1/1/!?!?!?!?!/1//1!?!?!?!

:'(

Agree with #2

FUCK YOU CRAVATH.

You've now guaranteed that my firm (Quinn Emanuel), which seeks to shortchange its associates whenever possible, will fuck us on bonuses too.

Some firms have minimum hours requirements in order to get a bonus. I hope those firms follow the Skadden model (or better). They should be able to afford it because they only pay the associates that billed a lot of hours.

For those of you who are shocked at the griping, you clearly did not work as much or more than last year at a higher billing rate only to get a 75% bonus reduction. How does the economy matter if I am bringing in more revenue than last year?

This is why lockstep bonuses are stupid.

Sullivan or Paul Weiss might match Skadden.

Milbank?! Are you kidding? Not in this environment.

84 - I agree but they wont. cheap fuckers all around.

And to you insurance law douchenozzles telling us to be thankful we have jobs - people have every right to bitch if they are getting less money for the same work, or less money than they expected.

I too chose Simpson over Skadden and remain confident in my choice - it was made for reasons totally independent of compensation, so why should compensation matter now? Relax 17, many of our peers chose firms over SASMF and are now paying for it as well.

I'm a partner at one of the firms that gets a lot of positive airplay here. Let me tell you, it's bad out here. The question isn't what we made or didn't make in 2008. The issue is 2009. Ordinarily, at this time of year, we are looking at a bank of hours that will pay the bills well into the next year. This year its nada, bubkes. To the extent the market tells us we have to pay bonuses at a certain level, we will pay them. But let me tell you, each dollar we pay in December will mean one more "performance review" we deliver in June. Consider yourselves warned.

Another firm that had to much banking and finance work.

Until Weil and Kirkland announce I'm not losing all hope in humanity.

Unreal...equity partners are going to reap a windfall this year...many biglaw firms are having as good a year as last and are now as busy as ever with TARP and the bank mergers and are using the economic climate as an excuse to pay low-ball bonuses to associates. Maybe they should have reduced associate salaries in second tier cities like Chicago and D.C. where the cost of living is much less than take away from NYC associates. BS that Chi and D.C. make as much NYC.

Here's the newsflash folks - every associate at one of these V10 firms could go across the street for less billables and better odds at partnership if they wanted. By being cheap, STB/Cravath have given them thousands of reasons to do just that.

If my firm cheaps out, you can bet your bottom dollar I'll be out of here too.

And no, that doesn't make me spoiled. Don't ascribe character values to supply and demand behavior. People at V10 firms don't have to worry about things like layoffs. We don't need to be appreciative of that any more than our firms need to be appreciative of our fancy expensive degrees. They obviously don't consider these fantastic associates to be their "PPP," why should the associates consider the job itself to be a reward? Fact is, we're doing the same work for less pay this year, and that's cause for complaint.

GD America? Not funny. Not necessary.

84- ive been wondering about this. Isnt it the LOCKSTEP firms who have to halve their bonuses- but the firms who reward 2000+ or whatever, will still be able to afford to pay their harderworking associates- no?

(yes i know skadden has a minimal bonus req, but still)

I'm putting my money on Weil to match Skadden.

I heard Cravath and Simpson summer programs are going to be off the hizzy this summer....... as many Sbarro's pizza dinners as you kids can handle!!!!

I'm a partner at one of the firms that gets a lot of positive airplay here. Let me tell you, it's bad out here. The question isn't what we made or didn't make in 2008. The issue is 2009. Ordinarily, at this time of year, we are looking at a bank of hours that will pay the bills well into the next year. This year its nada, bubkes. To the extent the market tells us we have to pay bonuses at a certain level, we will pay them. But let me tell you, each dollar we pay in December will mean one more "performance review" we deliver in June. Consider yourselves warned.

Why does anyone currently in law school care? Your first full bonus will be 2 years from now. These bonuses have nothing to do with the market two years from now.

For Simpson, you'd imagine 2009 will actually be a busier year assuming a consensus price floor. The PE will begin buying up companies and assets on the cheap.

Word is that Sidley has matched Skadden.

Will Cadwalader match Skadden?

88 - thanks for chiming in, appreciate the informed opinion. (no sarcasm)

#88 -- you can go eff yourself. you should consider yourself warned...you're probably some dead-weight partner, aka service partner that should be more nervous than us.

44, you are clearly a law student so get over yourself. You are not going to see a penny of the 2008 bonus season so why don't you sit back, relax and roll a doobie. Clearly you need it given how uptight you are.

Its hard for me to get that upset about this because if law firms were run like normal companies I would have been laid off long ago.

73:

Because living in NY is all about going to Broadway shows. You just don't get it- stay in Dallas- I hear the strip malls are top notch.

88, just wondering why after so many years of making $2m firms don't keep some cash in the bank? so you are telling us you can't have a bad year without firing half your associates, only to try to re-hire them the next year?

"G.D. America"? ARE YOU CRAZY ELIE?!?!?! My eyes burn!

Everyone join me, let's offset that terrorist crap!....USA USA USA USA USA USA USA!!!!

Screw this. I'm taking my check and betting it all on black. I'll be damned if green 00 comes up.

101 - bitter much?

lol at 17, 87.

#96 -- who do you think you are. you should consider yourself warned..you're probably some dead-weight service partner that's creating more of an economic strain on your firm than any associate.

Skadden has minimum billable hours requirements. CSM and STB do not. I am not sure how many associates at Skadden could make their hours in a year like this one = Skadden can afford higher bonus in slow markets and overall shitty economy, but not everyone is getting them.

Simpson & TTThacher

Scooped by xoxo again. yawn

This is such sh*t. I'm sick of people coming on here and saying "be glad you have a job instead of worrying about a bonus" ... umm, no. You see, I'm a litigator, and in a bad economy, litigation doesn't slow to a halt like corporate work. My job is not exactly on the chopping block. After billing 2500 hours this year, you're damn straight I want a bonus for the sacrifices I made.

If nothing else, let's end this lock-step bullshit, which I have always disagreed with in the first place. I'm tired of getting the same as the worthless associate who surfs the internet all day down the hall and bills 300+ fewer hours each year!

If Simpson were an ice cream flavor it would be Pralines and Half Skadden.

88 get back to work doing your associates work so you can underpay them this year.

For those of you just joining us, here's a recap of the debate thus far:

Lawyers: OMG OUR BONUS IS TEH SMALL

Non-lawyers: OMG UR SO SPOILED

88: To the extent your comments prove to be true, and that the bonus decisions is truly a business decision not based on simply lining the pockets of partners at the expense of associates, I completely respect your post. And I'm not even saying partners should take a big hit to pay the same bonuses at las tyear. For example, if a firm pays the $17.5K bonus and PPP still goes down (even slightly, or perhaps even remains flat), fine. I'll be complaining, but not necessarily about the partners' decision - I'll just be out there with everyone else complaining about the economy. But, if profits go up appreciably and bonuses get slashed in half...

I cant imagine Sidley matched Skadden- litigation there seems to be booming, but they made so much money off their securitization/capital markets practice groups... seems unlikely.

if they did match- it would only be the people who are billing more than 1800/2000, though...

92 - you got the quote all wrong-- it wasn't "GD America," it was "God-damn America." See, much funnier!

This is such sh*t. I'm sick of people coming on here and saying "be glad you have a job instead of worrying about a bonus" ... umm, no. You see, I'm a litigator, and in a bad economy, litigation doesn't slow to a halt like corporate work. My job is not exactly on the chopping block. After billing 2500 hours this year, you're damn straight I want a bonus for the sacrifices I made.

If nothing else, let's end this lock-step bullshit, which I have always disagreed with in the first place. I'm tired of getting the same as the worthless associate who surfs the internet all day down the hall and bills 300+ fewer hours each year!

Agree with the partner above. People who think this sucks are not paying attention. 50% of regular 2008 bonus is pretty generous under the circumstances. Wall St is completely f'd and will never be the same. Tens of thousands of bankers are losing their jobs with zero notice. Huge, well respected law firms are failing. There are thousands of well qualified associates looking for an increasingly dwindling number of jobs. This is not like a year ago-- you cannot just walt across the street anytime you feel like it and get a new job, unless you are in bankruptcy. Most associates have much more to worry about than the size of their bonus, so if this is your biggest problem, consider yourself lucky.

73 - I'd go out on a limb and say folks are friendly in the bar scene in NYC than they are in Dallas. Big D is about as welcoming as L.A. But I can still pop my collar on McKinney without repercussions, so that makes me happy.

101 -- if you only knew.

Agreed, 97. The PE firms are the only players with cash left and once the debt markets pick back up they are going to be eating as much as they can, as fast as possible. PE firms are the new ibanks, now that the ibanks are, er, just plain banks. STB will be just fine.

Cravath gave most everyone permission to pay at those levels. I don't think anyone will so publicly announce higher bonuses. They don't have to pay more, so why do it? Cravath did the NYC firm market a favor by taking the brunt of this.

Thanks for your wisdom, 88/96. It just sucks that we put in the effort this year, but it won't be really recognized. Of course, I really expect all of these firms to take a big hit to PPP, too.

I'm wondering where all of the disgruntled associates think they're going to go. Has your phone been ringing off the hook with HH calls lately? I didn't think so. You're not as special as you think you are, and saying it doesn't make it so.

96- I too am a partner at a firm that gets its share of play here. We pay bonuses becuase we have to. My advice to the kiddies is to take whatever bonus they get and stick it in a can in the yard (or deposit it in a bank if you're not risk adverse). 2009 will see massive layoffs. Maybe we call them performance, maybe we just whack a whole floor of people like STB. Very, very grim times are coming.

There are rumors of firms who aren't paying partners because of cash issues. If said firms give bonuses, the partners will be very grumpy and then heads begin to roll.

You guys just don't get it. Everyone thinks that THESE bonuses are an anomaly and that everything will revert to "normalcy" in a year or two. BS!!!!! THIS IS THE NORMAL ENVIRONMENT! LAST YEAR was the outlier, bumper year that will NEVER be seen again (until maybe another bubble in like 10 years or so).

The DC market was the true bellweather of "normalcy." Hence why CSM's bonuses are in-line with Covington-Hogan-Wilmer pay. THAT was normal. 35k + 10k special was abnormal. Welcome back to reality!

45-48 and 51-53 (all same) = douche de jour

88 - if next year turns out badly - then don't give out bonuses next year, or do your laying off then; but pay this year's bonus based on THIS YEAR.

When do the new PPP numbers come out?

I remember how I felt when Exxonmobil announced the highest quarterly profits ever for a US company in 2Q and again in 3Q of 2008, but people were paying ridiculous amounts at the gas tank and breaking their backs to pay for gasoline. That is the same feeling I expect to have when PPP are announced. Ridiculous.

I am a partner at a Top Ten Vault law firm.

111 = the correct answer.

What a bunch of whiny bitches we lawyers/law students are. Jesus Christ, $160k out of law school, in this economy, and we're bitching about bonuses of 1/2 (not considering "special" bonuses) what they were in the good times?

Bonuses.

Good thing we don't have real jobs.

Completely agree with 121.

I worked hard and to get paid the same as someone who works 1/4 as much is bullshit.

91-
In better economic times you'd be absolutely right about the ease with which you could work at the firm across the street. Unfortunately the lateral associate market is very weak now. In house jobs are harder to come by and firms are trimming their ranks, not hiring mid-levels. Feel free to vote with your feet, but your firm is not worried about associate attrition, but the lack of it. They'd love for more mid levels to leave. They'll probably regret it in a few years if or when business picks up. I'm not picking a fight, just pointing out that things are incredibly shitty for the clients and even the best lawfirms are worried about 2009 revenue. See post 88 and 96.

"What will bonuses look like for non-NY based firms?"

If you mean K&E, much better than this for anyone who billed 2200+ and probably better for some who didn't.

If you mean Orrick and the like, they'll do their pre-announced grids, which will be much better than this for the few who billed enough hours and bascially zero for those who didn't.

If you mean Jones Day, then it will be like most years--basically no bonus for many/most.

"BS that Chi ... make as much NYC"

Take home is MUCH better, b/c the state + local income tax totals 3%, flat. Need to avoid buying stuff not over the intertubes, b/c sales tax is 10.25% on all but groceries, tho.

126-

Yes, my phone has been ringing off the hook with HH calls lately. At least 2 a day. Sincerely, 91.

111 - this is exactly why you want to be in litigation. We never have trouble making hours even in a shitty economy. I don't know anyone in trial who isn't going to make there hours at my firm. And I am at a firm with a minimum billable requirement. I'm fine taking bonus money that other groups aren't getting. If they didn't put in the hours thats their problem not mine. The sad part is that my wife is in corporate so it is like my bonus is just getting redistributed. Still, fuck corporate. I bill enough to make up for it.

What chance do us lowly insurance lawyers have? We're busy as hell, but I'm sure our shop will take the opportunity to say our four figure bonus was forfeited because the partners' pension plan took a hit over the past couple of months.

104 -- enlighten me then. What's it about? Living in a crappy apartment for $4000k/month? The "sophisticated culture"? The great subways and infrastructure?

127 - If partners aren't getting paid, I don't think anyone would argue they should pay bonuses.

agree---end lock-step. it's a terrible communistic system. maybe keep it for 1st yrs, but the cream of the crop quickly separate themselves from the rest and there's no reason compensation has to be equal. it's the only profession i know that uses such an archaic, outmoded system.

"Not God Bless America, God-damn America." - Elie you have been spending too much time in Trinity Church and worshipping your Messiah Barrak.

116 = comment of the week. Nice.

It's hilarious that lawyers are so risk averse that they would prefer a $17,500 pay cut instead of risking the chance that they won't be able to bill more than 31 hours a week.

I hear those 3-month Treasury bills are a good buy too!

I thought the lead in was a funny reference to Rev. Wright and the outrage that people suddenly feel when they are personally affected by the current state of affairs.

Fuck this shit. I'm moving back to my hometown. NYC isn't worth it anymore. (This is not a joke/empty dramaticism.)

Elie, Fuck you for writing that. At least put it in quotations so you ascribe it to someone else and I don't think that you really feel that way. I will assume you were trying to make a joke, but it's like you're a 12 year old who learned something in school but doesn't realize that it's really inappropriate.
I'm amazed at the lack of maturity from an HLS guy. Maybe I shouldn't be.

Skadden has minimum billable hours requirements. CSM and Skadden do not. I am not sure how many associates made their hours in a year like this = Skadden can pay higher bonus in a shitty economy -but not everyone will get them.

The "partner" posts on here are clearly legitimate, since they obviously aren't familiar with the (admittedly broken) comment system and repost everything.

I thought the lead in was a funny reference to Rev. Wright and the outrage that people suddenly feel when they are personally affected.

Yeah PE firms that make their money leveraging appreciating assets with cheap debt are going to be killing it in 2009. Dumbest thing I've read all day.

91 -- you're kdding yourself; unless you do bankruptcy work, nobidy is hiring in NYC.

97, 125 -- you're wrong too; STB is in trouble precisely because it does PE work. 2009 is going to be worse, not better -- at least there was a half year of deals in 2008. PE deals require banks to fund and syndicate the debt part of their deals and that's not happening. PE firms don't do all equity deals -- they rely on leverage.

150 et al.: Question: If the associates don't hit the requirement, do they get 0 bonus or pro-rated bonus, or other?

135, nobody forced you to work at a lockstep firm. Is it a surprise to you that when everyone is paid the same, people who work more get shafted?
Did you hear about the fall of Communism?

105 -- law firms aren't managed like public companies. We divide up profits and losses on an annual basis. We don't have a line item on our balance sheet for retained earnings (losses). It always surprises me how little associates understand about law firm economics. Perhaps they should teach that in law school; it would be much more useful than seminars in human rights.

weil will match cravath. everyone will match cravath. And everyone who says it will screw recruiting is a fool because only so many people can go to skadden each year. This will not hurt anyone's recruiting. And as for the pissed off lateral... where the hell do you think they are going to go? People are getting laid off all over the place. Brilliant move on Cravath's part.

155 - if you don't make your hours you get no bonus, you're just lucky not to get fired at review time.

While we are at it, let's eliminate maternity and paternity leave. Basically my bonus went to play with their baby for six months. That's fine when we are all getting paid well, but those days are over. Axeing that benefit makes far more sense than cutting bonuses of working associates and staff.

121: Look at it this way... Next year you will have a job. Next year the internet surfer will not. Simplicity might be easier for you to understand. Of course, attitude goes a long way in this economy. You might want to change yours.

88 - Thanks for your perspective (no sarcasm intended). I think most reasonable associates understand and appreciate the severity of the economic climate. Here are some thoughts from our end:

1. During the past few years, as the economy soared and PPP skyrocketed (on the back of brutal hours for many associates - and really, that is the only way PPP can go up), did our bonuses rise proportionately? Yes, we got a special bonus last year, but how about the past few years?

2. Some of the top firms (Cravath, STB, DPW, S&C, Cleary) all pride and market themselves as paying the top of the market. Now, for better or for worse, Skadden has clearly started off at a certain level (i.e., lower than last year, to account for the economy). Skadden does NOT have the highest PPP of all the top firms (I don't think it's higher than any of the aforementioned firms). Now, if Skadden can pay at this certain level, is it unreasonable to expect that all the other top firms which profess to pay "top of the market" AND who all have higher PPP than Skadden to match Skadden?

3. The economy is down, and indeed, average billables for the associates (especially the junior associates) have probably gone down quite substantially from previous years. But yet, in the midst of all these huge mega deals (acquisitions, bankruptcy, TARP, bailouts, etc.), the firms continue to work their core of associates that they deem good and especially competent (not necessarily superstars, just the very competent and dedicated ones). So, some associates are still billing 2200 hours this year (not much less than last year). So the revenue earned from these associates is the same as last year. Is it then unreasonable for them to at least expect than their bonus will not be reduced by 2/3 from last year? Granted, this is more a problem for the lockstep firms.

Basically, I am not "entitled to a bonus of $X". But I am "entitled to a bonus equivalent to the the amount paid by my firm's peer" (because this is something that my firm loudly proclaimed and continues to proclaim when they recruited me and which I am asked to proclaim to future recruits).

126 - actually, yes, the HH are calling all the damn time. (3 a day on average). Plenty of places to go where I can work far fewer hours for the same or only slightly less pay.

128 - if no/small bonus = ordinary, then it's atrocious that law firms don't pay associates enough to, say, buy an apartment for themselves and a kid. Or at least do an annual cost-of-living/inflation adjustment...

Skadden's minimum billable requirement is 1600. That's roughly 30 billables a week. That is NOT the reason their bonuses are higher. Besides, even if you don't hit 1600, you still get half your bonus, that is, a Cravath-sized bonus.

They're higher because they are a well diversified firm that isn't dependent on a bunch of suddenly broke investment houses. CSM and STB cut bonuses in half (without factoring special) because their revenue is being slaughtered. They decided to live and die with investment banks, and they're dying.

The large, diversified firms like Skadden are doing alright, and will pay bonuses based on that fact. NY-centric firms will have to cut back.

I am so glad to be at a firm with hours-based bonuses THIS YEAR. It has hurt me in the past but my 2350 hours will pay off this year.

Orrick associates never thought the day would come when they were going to get paid more than their peers at CSM and STB:

http://abovethelaw.com/2008/06/associate_bonus_watch_the_2008.php

Skadden is still the market I'm Chicago. National firms and Chicago firms will do better than these crap NYC firms

weil will match cravath. everyone will match cravath. And everyone who says it will screw recruiting is a fool because only so many people can go to skadden each year. This will not hurt anyone's recruiting. And as for the pissed off lateral... where the hell do you think they are going to go? People are getting laid off all over the place. Brilliant move on Cravath's part.

You know what? Fuck all of you with your bitchy little fucking comments about entitlement. I went to a crap law school, and scored at the top of my class. I got a job at an amazing (but not salary-setting) law firm, and have almost $150k in debt. I come from a working class background and don't have an inheritance coming. I need this damn bonus to pay down my debt and actually enjoy the money I make working like a dog. My job's not going anywhere because I work at a stable, profitable firm. But when Cravath and Simpson pull this shit (and you better bet their PPP will still be remarkable), my firm will use it as an excuse not to give full bonuses, despite the fact that they've been bragging all year about being up year over year, despite the fact that I work across the table from both firms (as well as the snots at Wachtell) on a daily basis. So, if you don't work in BigLaw, get off the fucking bus and shut the hell up and let us hash this out amongst ourselves.

Sincerest regards,
Me

"The majority of associates are dedicated to making as much money as possible."

I don't know, that would be pretty sad if most associates only care about making as much money as possible. Money is important, but that is not the only thing.

Stop making such a fuss about it. It's still a pretty good year end bonus. They are not obligated to pay any bonuses at all

Its hard for me to get that upset about this because if law firms were run like normal companies I would have been laid off long ago.

"The majority of associates are dedicated to making as much money as possible."

I don't know, that would be pretty sad if most associates only care about making as much money as possible. Money is important, but that is not the only thing.

Stop making such a fuss about it. It's still a pretty good year end bonus. They are not obligated to pay any bonuses at all

what are firms like Cahill, Milbank, etc that generally have high PPP going to do? match bonuses of skadden? cravath? neither?

154, that's ridiculous. I got a call today from a headhunter calling about a job in NY...and I'm not even in NY.

wow, there are a lot of "partners" on this board today...

you know what funny, there is one firm that none of us think about when we think about about firms squeezing associates this year for money.

And guess were most of these people including the posting partners would like to work

Shut up 14. I am on track to bill 2600 this year and I deserve that full bonus. If people sitting around doing nothing, I agree they shouldn't get full bonus, but some of us are still working full out and don't want to be sacrificed to carry their dead weight.

Apparently i was wrong. I thought that Skadden worked their bonus on the all-or-nothing system. Apologies for the misinformation, I just fact checked myself. You get 1/2 bonus if you do not make your hours. I still think that the lucky not to get fired thing holds true.

-161

Also, Skadden Houston and Skadden Wilmington associates pwn you all. Full salary. Full bonus.

And in Houston, no state income tax.

But hey, I'm sure your NYC Biglaw shop can get you free passes at MoMA should you get a Saturday off anytime soon. That makes up for it, right?

litigators who are complaining-- eat a dick. most of the big firms' revenue comes from corporate. most big firm litigators would not make even close what they make without corporate supporting them. oh, and most of your litigation clients are really corporate clients first. so you suck on the corporate tit year after year, but then when times get tough you want to throw corporate under the bus. sorry-- it doesn't work like that

155/161: Actually, it totally depends on the firm. At my firm, there can be an adjustment if your hours are low. However, if you are well thought of, you may still get the class bonus, although you probably will not get the "bump up" for top performers.

Kirkland is going to change the game. Latham will match skadden nationally and NYC will get the shaft

People who call associates "spoiled" are so full of it. If you are on track for 2300 hours, you've basically given up a year of your life. All the late nights and weekends working should be worth at least a Skadden. Before calling us spoiled, why don't you sit infront of your computer for 14 hours a day, sometimes 7 days a week. Let's talk about entitlement then.

what are firms like Cahill, Milbank, etc that generally have high PPP going to do? match bonuses of skadden? cravath? neither?

Scooped by xoxo again. White girls with asian guys

only unimportant crap partners would post on ATL. seriously, take a second and ask yourself if you can imagine the chairman of your firm or head of your department sitting in his/her office right now typing a comment on this site.

Elie nailed it. CravaTTTh has doomed us all (except Skadden associates).

People who call associates "spoiled" are so full of it. If you are on track for 2300 hours, you've basically given up a year of your life. All the late nights and weekends working should be worth at least a Skadden. Before calling us spoiled, why don't you sit infront of your computer for 14 hours a day, sometimes 7 days a week. Let's talk about entitlement then.

157,

to be fair, each firm should have a training session in partner compensation for associates. Why do you expect law schools to teach this when the firm could do it? There is no way for an associate to know this information unless you tell it to us, and you purposely decide not to. And don't claim there isn't time - we could skip the "how to delegate" seminar.

Oh, Howie, no time for holiday spirit. CSM and STB just halfed our bonus.

157 - perhaps if law firms were a little more transparent with their associates instead of the black boxes that they are, associates would understand these things better....

only unimportant junior partners would post on ATL. seriously, take a second and ask yourself if you can imagine the chairman of your firm or head of your department sitting in his/her office right now typing a comment on this site.

what are firms like Cahill, Milbank, etc that generally have high PPP going to do? match bonuses of skadden? cravath? neither?

In most instances, it's mid-level associates (2005)and higher that get screwed by the low bonus structure since (1) they bill out at a significantly higher rate than first years, (2) their time is rarely written-off by partners and (3) they add significant value to transactions. There is definitely an injustice in the bonus system when a fourth year associate is only being paid $5,000 more in bonus than a first year associate and an eighth year associate is only getting $15,000 more than a first year.

Perhaps it's even more of an injustice when partners at these firms keep PPP the same and take home the same income as last year. CSM and STB are taking advantage of the market because they know that their associates have few (if any) other employment options if they quit. Perhaps those associates will depart as soon as the market gets better (whenever that happens), but in the interim, we have to hope that the good firms who have not announced bonuses (e.g., S&C, D&P, WGM) but which are still extraordinarily busy do what is right for their associates and match Skadden.

174 -- name the firms. I bet they're second tier, at best.

154

Ah, poor babies. I feel SO sorry for you. Jesus. Get over yourselves. Do you realize that even without bonuses you make more money that 99.9999% of people?

Look, it's just a different story for litigators right now. And litigation firms should bear that in mind. We were slamming busy this year and expect to be busy going forward. No one likes to work that hard without a thank you OR money.

Boo hoo people. Seriously. Be glad you have a job that pays many times over what most families make in a year and stop griping about your bonuses. Big bonuses now = no job next year for at least some associates at your firms. And whether you think of yourself as "safe" or not, this will adversely impact you. (Granted, you will have something to gripe about if your bonuses are cut and your firm's PPP for the year increase at previous rates, but that remains to be seen).

154: I agree with you about PE. Generally, the banks provide 70% of the funds for these deals, so it's unlikely we'll see any bargain hunting for PEs soon. Strategics, however, should pick up as soon as the equity markets stabilize (based on the assumption that they'll use stock consideration). They'll probably still want to structure the deal with collars.

Query: Which firms are best positioned if and when this occurs?

Anyone who thinks PE will have a good year either in 2008 or 2009 clearly doesn't do any of it, or understand it.

Those deals are all leveraged. The asset underneath those deals has all gone down significantly - check NYSE for price of company, extrapolate to private company. Those deals are now underwater and probably going to default because they were stupidly leveraged and never should have been done.

PE ain't gonna be doing @#^! in 2009.

180-

Fuck off, I work at a litigation-only firm that owns your shitty corporate firm in annual profits. Give me my goddamned full bonus, and give you your fucking pink slip.

#90 is smoking crack. The TARP work, as everyone knows, is being done at a tremendous discount. No windfall for those few firms participating, and no effect on the majority that are not.

180: I take it you have not heard of firms like Quinn, Irell and Munger? They do pretty well despite not having corporate departments. Maybe the litigators at your firm are second tier, but that's not true at most of the V20.

I thought the GD America quote was funny. Take it easy.

Boo hoo people. Seriously. Be glad you have a job that pays many times over what most families make in a year and stop griping about your bonuses. Big bonuses now = no job next year for at least some associates at your firms. And whether you think of yourself as "safe" or not, this will adversely impact you. (Granted, you will have something to gripe about if your bonuses are cut and your firm's PPP for the year increase at previous rates, but that remains to be seen).

NYC is a has-been city. $3000 for a one bedroom, massive state/city taxes, smells like garbage 90% of the time, too cold in the winter, too hot in the summer. 80% of the land area is one giant housing project, the other 20% was propped up by a financial system that has collapsed onto itself. London is the new financial center of the world, leaving NYC with nothing.

The budget is going to hell, cops are being laid off, subway lines will be shut down, and crime will be back to 70s levels within a couple of years. If you did buy property, the value is going to fall in half by the end of Obama's first term.

And now, your bonuses suck ass, even when compared to the rest of the country.

Good decision. Keep defending NY though. Seriously, keep it up.

The dood is projecting a big year for PE deals b/c he thinks the debt markets will clear and PE firms will scoop up cheap companies ahead of the inevitable recovery.

You might think it won't happen, but its not out of realm of possibilities.

88,96,127=word. Get used to it kiddies. It is VERT ugly out there and its only going to get worse. From another partner.

i also have more school loans outstanding then 99.9999999% of the population -- so #198 -- go f yourself

Obama's LSAT to 160!

I think the comments generally betray the lack of knowledge lawyers (and law students) have about what is going on in the economy right now. In a world where money can be borrowed, expenses are generally paid with borrowed money. In the world we live in now where money cannot be borrowed, those who had planned on borrowing money to pay expenses are in trouble. And the people that planned on borrowing money to cover expenses = every single client that can ordinarily pay the rates that a large firm charges. Wake up, people. Law firms are not getting paid as their clients cannot come up with the cash to pay them. If you think that having a "well diversified" client base helps, you're losing the plot. And people here are jumping up and down screaming "not fair." That shit may work with your parents, but law firms are in the business of stayiong in business and paying you one cent more than they have to in order to have enough staffing is not how to stay in business.

#90 is smoking crack. The TARP work, as everyone knows, is being done at a tremendous discount. No windfall for those few firms participating, and no effect on the majority that are not.

Will middle market PE be an exception?

I hope all the firms like Orrick, MoFo, etc that base bonuses on hours do not change the structure! Wow, aint that the shit? SF Firms paying more than NY Firms on bonuses.

Skadden, Orrick, MoFo > Simpson, Cravath

203-

Irell and Munger both have corporate departments. Hell, even Boies Schiller does.

172/184 - They'll wait for S&C and DP to announce and then match.

you, too #196 -- you're an idiot...i bet you love posting on these anonymous blogs so people don't have to know how fat, ugly and stupid you really are.

Pss, hey Guido, its all so clear to me now. I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant, you get it? And he knows it. That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it, ya, before he let's loose the marmosets on us. Don't worry little missy, I'll save you.

WOW - WHY IS THE LEGAL PROFESSION PLAGUED BY SO MANY LOSERS? WHINING ABOUT BONUS MONEY? THAT'S CHUMP CHANGE. I FEEL A GREAT SYMPATHY FOR MANY OF YOU. INSECURE, NO LOVE, NO SELF-ESTEEM. TIME IS COMING TO AN END. YOU DON'T WANT TO FAIL YOUR CREATOR.

Ultimately, this is merely an effort by law firms to try to shed some mid-levels by hoping they'll quit. Hopefully some do so the rest of us can get some work and stay employed.

does anyone notice that nervous t-10 1L has been missing from commenting on these posts? Maybe he's finally realizing that finals are near and if he ever wants a biglaw job, he needs the grades.

p.s. i kinda miss him :(

Oh, and sometime next month when you leave the office early (8:30) after yet another deal fell through due to banks being skittish on the financing and have to take the subway home because your firm switched the car-reimbursement time to 9 PM instead of 8 PM, you'll get stabbed by some crackhead laid off former real estate broker after you hesitate to hand over your wallet on the 2 train to your overpriced condo on the UWS.

You should have worked somewhere else.

does anyone notice that nervous t-10 1L has been missing from commenting on these posts? Maybe he's finally realizing that finals are near and if he ever wants a biglaw job, he needs the grades.

p.s. i kinda miss him :(

211, sorry about your tiny pink cash flow problems.

What are the D.C. top tier going to do for bonuses?

Any word on Cov, Wilmer, Hogan and A&P?

No bonus this year?

What are the D.C. top tier going to do for bonuses?

Any word on Cov, Wilmer, Hogan and A&P?

No bonus this year?

219 - if you don't like listening to us then why are you on ATL? Also the caps lock key is the on the left of the keyboard, should be right next to your pinky. Just trying to help, you seem confused.

141:

http://www.dallasnews.com/fdluxe/

If you can't tell what's wrong w/ this photo, then I can't help you.

i'm not smoking crack...i'm smoking some dank weed that gets delivered right to my door whenever i want it, which #206 is just one in the laundry-list of reasons why NYC is better than your city.

um...222...the 2 train doesn't go to thet UWS.

Which firms do/don't pro-rate bonuses for first years?

Agree with 217.

I also work harder than, get less sleep than, had better grades than, went to a better than 99.99999999% of the country.

Elie, 149 here. Thanks. I knew I could count on you.

232,

How come you still suck?

um ... 230 ... yes it does.

um ... 230 ... yes it does.

230 - um, yes it does. UWS stands for Upper West Side, as in the part of Manhattan that is above 59th street, but generally south of 110th street, west of central part.

230 is a moron.

194 - get over yourself. 1st years are that close to you because they are the ones who need to be sucked in -- your sorry ass is stuck and not going anywhere. why would they up the cost of carrying you forward until you start bringing in clients? hear that clock ticking? It's your career...better start with the rain fella.

And yes, I get that I'm there soon enough, but the beauty is that I'm leaving before then!

157, 183-

Firms should sit down either summers or new associates and explain to them how the partnership work, how the cash flow works. Surely someone could make a powerpoint equivalent of "How A Bill Becomes A Law" tracing the flow from an associate billing an hour, through the lead partner, billed to the client, client pays firm, how the partnership works down to your paycheck and bonus. It would also put some action behind the claim during recruiting that the firm "wants everyone to have the opportunity to make partner" (hah, but still - keep the dream alive).

In addition being honest with associates about what is happening in the economy and what the firm expects in the coming year, the firm needs to explain these things to the summers. There will be kids coming in who are 23, don't read newspapers and have no idea what is going on and what it means for the future. Everyone deserves more explanation that a rah-rah email saying the firm is great, a bonus announcement saying the economy sucks and some ATL commentors predicting the return of PE work.

Amen, 229.

In most instances, it's mid-level associates (2005)and higher that get screwed by the low bonus structure since (1) they bill out at a significantly higher rate than first years, (2) their time is rarely written-off by partners and (3) they add significant value to transactions. There is definitely an injustice in the bonus system when a fourth year associate is only being paid $5,000 more in bonus than a first year associate and an eighth year associate is only getting $15,000 more than a first year.

Perhaps it's even more of an injustice when partners at these firms keep PPP the same and take home the same income as last year. CSM and STB are taking advantage of the market because they know that their associates have few (if any) other employment options if they quit. Perhaps those associates will depart as soon as the market gets better (whenever that happens), but in the interim, we have to hope that the good firms who have not announced bonuses (e.g., S&C, D&P, WGM) but which are still extraordinarily busy do what is right for their associates and match Skadden.

ha 230 is an idiot.

Both CSM and Simpson claim in their recruiting materials and on their websites to pay top of market compensation. Those statements, which may have been true at the time they were made, have been rendered false and misleading by the events of the past few days. Unless those firms revise/retract those statements right away, the Consumer Affairs/Fraud division on the NY AG's office should take appropriate action. (The NY State Bar and NALP should take a look at this as well). These firms should not be permitted to use the internet or the NALP recruiting process to distribute false and misleading claims about their compensation, especially when they are unquestionably on notice that they no longer pay top of the market compensation.

182 - Kirkland is not going to change the game. If you have been paying attention, you would know that Kirland usually comes out just above where the top of the market is set (excluding WLRK). So if history is a guide, and excluding other surprises, I would guess that they will be about where Skadden is, with the higher billers (2200 and up) getting a little to a lot more, depending on the merit and hours components.

Oh, and the partners that have posted here are right. It is ugly out there, and if you think the partners (i.e., the owners) are going to absorb pain to keep associates (i.e, the workers) comfortable, then you do not understand business. What are you going to do, leave? Suits them fine - one less layoff for the masses here to scream about.

226 -- w&c will easily lead the pack in "bonuses" in DC -- 20k equivalent.

w/o a corp dept too! imagine that!!!

Here is a depressing thought - a first year in ATL last year made $145K base and $7500 bonus. This year I am guessing a $3000 bonus - after taxes that will not cover New Year's Eve. HAH!

Corporate is TTT!

ha 230 is an idiot.

*Calls to rescind his acceptance with Simpson*

-Loyala 2L

:(

poor me. i had such high hopes back in august and now my expectations have been considerably lowered. what's the point anymore.

*has nihilist thoughts*

-nervous T-10 1L
email job leads to nervoust101l@yahoo.com

SullCrom paying WGWAG bonuses?

I just can't stop thinking about how dumb 230 is. It's one thing to not know where the 2 train goes. Quite another to claim that someone else is wrong about where the 2 train goes and be completely wrong about it.

my rich aunt gives me more every year than this bonus after taxes

I love the statement of the obvious. "These bonuses are less than 2007." Very helpful.

xoxohth.com is making a huge comeback! first the condor graphic at the top of the page and now the STB bonus scoop! big changes indeed!

244 = one of those 1Ls who spouts off a lot first semester and then never speaks in class again after getting his grades.

Who exactly is it that is being "defrauded" by the law firms' websites -- their at-will employees? And please don't tell me that you think law students or law firm associates would be covered by "consumer fraud" statutes with respect to their compensation.

Possibly the dumbest post ever.

254 - good for you you little wasp bitch

what will WLRK do? Will they still pay 100%? When do they usually announce?

Grow up, NYC attorneys. You and your financial sector colleagues epitomized the high-flying, easy-credit ways of the last several years. Now you will face the consequences. NYC always thinks it's more important than it actually is.

206 DESERVES REPEATING, cuz it's awesome:

NYC is a has-been city. $3000 for a one bedroom, massive state/city taxes, smells like garbage 90% of the time, too cold in the winter, too hot in the summer. 80% of the land area is one giant housing project, the other 20% was propped up by a financial system that has collapsed onto itself. London is the new financial center of the world, leaving NYC with nothing.

The budget is going to hell, cops are being laid off, subway lines will be shut down, and crime will be back to 70s levels within a couple of years. If you did buy property, the value is going to fall in half by the end of Obama's first term.

And now, your bonuses suck ass, even when compared to the rest of the country.

Oh, and sometime next month when you leave the office early (8:30) after yet another deal fell through due to banks being skittish on the financing and have to take the subway home because your firm switched the car-reimbursement time to 9 PM instead of 8 PM, you'll get stabbed by some crackhead laid off former real estate broker after you hesitate to hand over your wallet on the 2 train to your overpriced condo on the UWS.

guys and girls, biglaw needs to SHRINK by about 40% or more, and quickly. the finance work is gone and not coming back. the public market work is gone and not coming back for a long time. the vc work is gone and never coming back.

this is part of the healing process. accept it.

261/206 - You are idiots. New York is still a great place for one single reason --> the demand for lawyers. It is depressing to see how badly some lawyers lack a basic understanding of economics. Clearly you both work in litigation and have your heads in the clouds.

244 might actually be brain dead. I mean he is typing so there is some basic motor function but I doubt that there is any higher level brain function. He should go find a class action to join, something must have caused this that was not his fault.

The problem with 88's post is that s/he treats the bonus decision as though it has to do with predicting the future as opposed to rewarding the past. It's total crap to lure people into billing 2500 hours a year, generage huge PPP for a year, and then cut bonuses because PPP the FOLLOWING year will likely decline. If you're going to cut bonuses, you should cut them following a year of slow work.

Also belying the argument is the fact that very few firms keep a rainy day fund - they pay out their PPP quarterly with just enough liquidity to keep operations going. If you're cutting bonuses then don't let us catch you emptying the piggybank into your own pockets. The whole concept of "partner" is that you share in the lean times in order to justify the fat - that's not a risk/reward calculation we associates agreed to when you asked us to stay weekends.

The 2 train is the express train to the UWS (2/3). Curves off at 96th Street.

as surprising and sudden as this downturn is, the snapback will be just as surprising

right now, it looks like deals will never, ever happen again, but they will

for the same reason a ton of fuctard shorts got raped the past few days...no one fucking knows what will happen short term

Did ATL ever post about Dewey not paying partners their draw? It seems to me that's a very relevant topic for ATL, that partners at a V50 firm are only getting the equivalent of $120,000/yr right now.

239, in defense of 194, I totally agree with 194. Try being a mid-level to upper-level associate who actually has his or her own clients and will still bill between 2000 and 2400 hours this year (like me). Then look again at the bonus structure that may be followed if firms follow Cravath as opposed to Skadden. There is a sense of injustice for those of us who are in that group of associates. And I'm at a V10 firm. So don't jump to conclusions that 194 is dead-end, he/she is just as likely to be on the other side of the scale and one of the future rain-makers who may see a significant cut in income (while partners break even from last year). And yes, you may be leaving before you hit our level (assuming 239 was a mid-level or senior level associate and not just a wise junior), but it may very well be a forced exit if you continue to limit your thinking.

i don't think non-NYC attorneys should even post comments on this site...it's funny how truly irrelevant you are. everything happens in nyc. i mean the only reason you have jobs is b/c sometimes we need to understand some dumb aspect of your state's corporate law or case law.

263 -- yeah, obviously the demand is HUGE! hence the declining bonuses.

the demand for lawyers in DC is where the action will be, especially with Premier Obama at the helm.

Amen, 269 (and 194). At least there is some sanity on this blog.

"Not God Bless America, God-damn America."

Elie: Why even put this in? It adds nothing and it isn't funny. I'm not going to pretend I'm deeply offended by it but its unnecessary. Things are rough everywhere, just report what you are hearing. No need to interject BS like this in.

I heard debevoise just matched cravath, any confirmation?

169, if you went to a crap law school, why'd you run up $150K in debt? The only reasons to go to a bad law school would be 1) because they gave you money or 2) it was the only place you got in. For #2, we already have Vanderbilt.

i love how all these lawyers whine about how it's not fair that they bill 2500 hours while the guy next door in banking billed 1000, and complain that they both get the same middling bonus. Um, hello, you chose to go to a lockstep firm. You foresook the risk of fluctuating billable hours and bonus payments, in exchange for a guaranteed bonus payment.
Don't whine about how you put in so many hours yet are still paid the same since you could easily have chosen an hours-based firm. Waaa waaa, it's not fair.

If you want no downside and guaranteed upside, I got some nice Florida condos to sell you.

270 - you can go to hell. NYC is not the end-all-be-all. There are perfectly good jobs outside of NYC. With the decreased cost of living in other placed in the country taking a 5 digit pay cut isn't that bad either.

NYC is awesome. Y'all are just jealous cause we have the best food, best bars, best weed, best nightlife, and live in perhaps the only US city that doesn't look like a backwater suburb when compared to any old city in Europe.

166: MoFo, too: http://abovethelaw.com/2008/04/morrison_foerster.php

I think mid-senior associates with mortgages are in trouble this year...

Predictions:

WLRK will pay 50%-of-base bonuses (not 100%)
Kirkland's bonus numbers will stay at 2007 levels and truly shatter the market
Irell, Munger, Quinn, Boies will maintain 2007 levels
Weil will match Skadden or add the supplementary bonus on top of that
Everyone else, minus a few DC shops, will crash and burn (err...at least with regard to bonuses) with Cravath and STB.

Anyone know what bonuses were like in Chicago based firms last year? Kirkland is well known to be above NYC market, but what about Winston, Sidley, Mayer, Jenner, etc.? They matched NYC in NYC, but what about Chicago?

276, be careful. Some stupid 1Ls on here might try to take that Florida condo comment as an offer and actually try to force you to sell them a condo. See comment 244 for an equally stupid 1L argument.

that's fine 277...enjoy your dinner at Friday's or Applebee's tonight, I'm heading to Peter Luger...oh, sorry, i forgot restaurants in east-bumble middle of nowhere suburbia USA are just as good as restaurants in New York.

These pretzels are making me two hundred eighty-thirtd-sty

These pretzels are making me two hundred eighty-third-sty

277 - Don't take the bait.

270 -- oh yeah, obviously non-NY lawyers are "irrelevant." That's why virtually all firms pay the same salaries/bonuses to non-NY lawyers and why the top-paying firms this year (other than wachtell) will be in DC! (skadden-DC and williamsconnolly)

Quick! Potter is offering 50-cents on the dollar!!

284 - I like Applebee's. We have better steak in the midwest anyway (not at Applebee's). Have fun going home to your shoebox, I can buy a nice house out here, near work, for a much smaller percentage of my salary. I've lived in NYC, it is very nice and there is a lot of stuff to do but I would prefer to raise my children in a place with less of a chance of them being raped or murdered.

the half bonus is not the issue! the real issue is that your new president is going to take all of your hard-earned money.

the half bonus is not the issue! the real issue is that your new president is going to take all of your hard-earned money.

I blame the president-elect. Barack Obama: NOT MY PRESIDENT

287 - sorry i couldn't help it

-277/290

Predictions:

WLRK will pay 50%-of-base bonuses (not 100%)
Kirkland's bonus numbers will stay at 2007 levels and truly shatter the market
Irell, Munger, Quinn, Boies will maintain 2007 levels
Weil will match Skadden or add the supplementary bonus on top of that
Everyone else, minus a few DC shops, will crash and burn (err...at least with regard to bonuses) with Cravath and STB.

To the NYC vs. Other markets debaters: This reminds me of an Adam Sandler movie (and yes, I'm calling you pathetic): "Shampoo is betta! I go on first an clean da hair! Conditioner is betta!"

Firms have really f*cked the NY market.

The bonus was the one thing that could even out the NYC col differential. Not its as if NYC associates are underpaid.

Damn you, Scuba Steve!

284 - We're not comparing Nebraska to NYC. LA, Chicago, DC, even Houston have as good if not better restaurants (Chicago) than NYC.

Plus, consider this. Chicago associates pay a 3% total combined flat state income tax, and that's it. NYC associates pay over 10% combined city/state. For a 5th year making $230,000, that 7% difference is equal to $16,100.

Time for Shearman & Sterling to step up. Pass the baton of shitty reputation on to Cravath and STB!

284, ordering food from Seamlessweb does not count as going to a "restaurant in New York."

By the way, where's the siren?

Simpson is the new Shearman.

Funny, that NY attorneys think they're still so hot when their NY firm bonuses suck this year and DC offices haven't been cutting people at anywhere near the rate NY offices have. (That's probably because we're actually busy in DC).

290 - what, do you still live in 1980? You've got more of a chance of being murdered in Macon, GA than NYC.

Is MoFo still following its previously announced bonus structure? If so, they are now way above market.

This is sad and ironic. My TTT mid-sized firm that only pays 145k starting and doesn't have lock-step has a bonus policy that would pay more than Simpson if an associate billed at least 2,200 hours. Heck, since the bonus policy is based on hours billed, if an associate at my firm billed Simpson-type hours, like 2,400 plus, they would make twice the bonus of a Simpson associate.

NYC firms are using this all as an excuse to lower the insane bonus numbers we've seen in the last couple years.

Do people really think PE work is coming back next year? Only if you are in the restructuring biz. That's whats happening to alot of 06-07 PE deals right now.

298 - I'm comparing Minneapolis to NYC. I had a bison steak the other night bigger than my head. But i do agree with you. The income tax rates aren't the only thing to consider. Everything is less expensive outside of NYC. Real estate, gas, property taxes just no name a few.

-277/290

289 - great quote. And just in time for the holidays!

Skadden doubles their bonuses to make up for what they are missing in their pants

oh noossszzzz.....
"More Americans serving as their own lawyers"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081124/ap_on_re_us/representing_yourself

The big LA and SF firms are going to be hard-pressed not to match Orrick and MoFo. I truly feel for the New Yorkers this year.

311 - this trend is not new and it really pisses off judges. I clerked for a judge and appearing before him pro se was doing yourself a real disservice to say the least. It really screws everything up when someone who has no idea what they are doing is bumble-fucking their way through the procedures.

"Time for Shearman & Sterling to step up. Pass the baton of shitty reputation on to Cravath and STB!"

Dear Shearman associate,

I wouldn't emotionally invest in this hope too much.

I'm glad 251 is despondent, maybe he will shoot himself and get the hell off this board.

Is this for reals! I should have gone to MoFo.

http://abovethelaw.com/2008/04/morrison_foerster.php

I can't imagine living in some of the backwards-ass dumps that you fools call home. There's no U.S. city that's even in the same ballpark as NYC.

Skadden-Mart... :-(

317 - idk, Detroit and Baltimore are pretty crappy, and I would consider them to be in the same ballpark as NYC. Not as much trash in the streets in Detroit, though.

312st!

Things are grim at Latham. Those that hit hours will get a Cravath half-bonus, plus a little more if you bill above the target. However, there's not too many associates that will hit the minimum, even with the crapload of pro bono hours people have. Layoffs in 2009.

Dear Lat: You need to fix ur site to avoid the multiple (sometimes 7 or 8 postings). If you want I could write a couple lines of code for you that'd do the trick.

Holla back.

Fuck New York, watch and learn everyone, Kirkland will kick ass this year with bonuses...and it's a Chicago firm bitches

Come to San Francisco - no snow, less crowded and better weather. Food as good if not better...

324, less crowded, are you serious? I can walk years in New York without getting accosted by bums.

It also helps to live in a city where firms aren't folding.

317 -- Hot-lanta is about as good as NYC. Great clubs and food. If you like NYC you'd love Hot-lanta.

V10 Firms

OK: Wachtell, S&C, DPW, Cleary, Weil, Kirkland
Not Awful: Skadden, Cravath
2009 Layoffs Here we Come: STB, Latham

completely inappropriate to use the Jeremiah Wright comments when talking about something as superficial and meaningless as rich lawyer's bonuses. Give me a break you snobs.

Elie,

Before we hold up Skadden as the golden standard, how about some stats on the % of associates who are going to make their hours.

Cravath and STB both have no min so they might have to pay twice as many associates

Not God Bless 328, God-damn 328!

324 - do you have any idea how hard it is (for either law students or laterals) to get a job in SF right now? All the Orrick trolling is out of hand - they just laid off 40 associates Pete's sake. I won't be surprised if MoFo blinks on this bonus memo either. They're both top-notch firms in the SF/SV market, but being a lawyer in NorCal is plain scary right now.

324, yeah but wouldn't that make me gay?

Wait, according to that Mofo chart in the link, I get $65K for billing 2100 hours with the standard bonus. You think they'll change their mind by February?

Skadden will get hung out to dry by the other firms. No one will match. (Not counting Wachtell which is a special case) They jumped in too early, and they got screwed.

Over-under for posts on this thread by 9am? I'll set it at 1000.

Skadden = elite? The firm that takes any HYS with a heartbeat?

OMGROFLOL!!!1!!one.

Under by a long shot.

Here's the real question:

What're Weil Gotschal's bonuses going to look like? They're making out like bandits in this market...

335: Except for DPW, S&C, Kirkland, maybe Weil . . . it's all over but the waiting. I'm taking way under.

335- "You're out some smokes, son." It's under and not even close.

Under by a long shot.

Under by a long shot.

Under by a long shot.

Under by a long shot.

Under by a long shot.

335- "You're out some smokes, son." It's under and not even close.

335- "You're out some smokes, son." It's under and not even close.

335- "You're out some smokes, son." It's under and not even close.

335- "You're out some smokes, son." It's under and not even close.

335- "You're out some smokes, son." It's under and not even close.

335- "You're out some smokes, son." It's under and not even close.

These firms are greedy as hell.

The past few years, firms with ~1mm ppp paid out not only the regular 35k scale , but in most cases tacked the special on top last year.

I highly doubt Cravath/STB will dip under 2 mil, which gives them absolutely no excuse to abandon the 35k scale.

Pro se people are a pain in the ass. They are also a headache on appeal (where I've dealt with them as a clerk. Not only do they not follow procedure - and get bounced or summarily dealt with - you see all these ways that competent representation could win their case for them, but you can't make arguments for them as the court.

The results people get by repping themselves leave, ah, a bit to be desired.

341-351, clever. Stop it.

These firms are greedy as hell.

The past few years, firms with ~1mm ppp paid out not only the regular 35k scale , but in most cases tacked the special on top last year.

I highly doubt Cravath/STB will dip under 2 mil, which gives them absolutely no excuse to abandon the 35k scale.

"V10 Firms

OK: Wachtell, S&C, DPW, Cleary, Weil, Kirkland
Not Awful: Skadden, Cravath
2009 Layoffs Here we Come: STB, Latham"

ummm, why do we think Cleary's going to be ok? aren't they highly exposed to capital markets/structured finance? I know that Kirkland has an amazing bankruptcy practice, but arent they also heavily into PE? I dont think a lot of people on here are being realistic about how bad the situation is. 2009 is going to be a mess.

Prediction: no one is going to be worried about bonuses in December 2009. Because of the widespread layoffs during the previous year, they'll be worried about keeping their jobs. Few attorneys, if any, will be safe.

Where is that article that claimed Ropes and S&C were well positioned, while others weren't?

Would be shocked if Irell pays less than last year and those followers at Quinn will probably match unless they want to lose even MORE T14 students to us than they already do. Lit shops will be fine and everyone knows it - no justification for paying its associates less this year - no corporate dead weight to pull/subsidize.

Two words - antitrust lawsuit. PPP at record highs, associate comp getting cut in lockstep fashion. This could be the year where it is finally worth the while of a merry band of associates to file suit against the large law firms.

324 here - first of all, there are lots of offices in the Bay doing fine right now. The regional firms are dying, but national firms with offices in the area are coming up and dominating. Also, SV is doing fine, SF may be hurt by overhedging on financials and real estate, but SV is doing fine and many firms that have offices in both will just shift associates to SV and do that work.

As for homeless, no one in NYC can EVER talk about hobos. Hobos in SF are in the bad areas, as they are in any city.

329 - hours requirement at Skadden is only 1600. Most competent associates will hit that. Those that don't get a half bonus, same as CSM or STB. So it's win-win.... you either get a bonus that is twice the size of your peers, or you billed roughly 30 hours a week this year, and have a bonus that is the exact same as an associate hitting 2200 hours at Cravath.

Skadden IS the gold standard this year.

324 here - first of all, there are lots of offices in the Bay doing fine right now. The regional firms are dying, but national firms with offices in the area are coming up and dominating. Also, SV is doing fine, SF may be hurt by overhedging on financials and real estate, but SV is doing fine and many firms that have offices in both will just shift associates to SV and do that work.

As for homeless, no one in NYC can EVER talk about hobos. Hobos in SF are in the bad areas, as they are in any city.

Elie--can you verify that MoFo is still paying their anticipated 2008 bonus? If so...thats hot!

http://abovethelaw.com/2008/04/morrison_foerster.php

359 - that is possibly the worst idea I have ever heard. It is competative with 244.

I went with STB despite having 3 V5 offers. Hope I don't regret my choice.

How do people who have actually encountered a successful lawsuit come up with ideas that bad

365 - Right there with you buddy.

365/367: you should already be regretting it. STB is just CWT with a nicer PR job.

People like 230, 244 and 359 are proof positive that firms are paying associates way too much money. How did these people even graduate high school.

STTTB / CWTTT

365/367 - great move; in the worst economy since the great depression its always a good idea to go with an over-sized faltering firm that's been rumored to have conducted stealth layoffs even before the shit hit the fan

I know I'm in the late 300s, but which firm should I hire to sue to make me FIRST!!!

Skadden only pays half bonus between 1400 and 1600 hours. Fewer than 1400 hours = ZERO bonus.

284 can go to Peter Luger and brag about it. His life is worthwhile.

373 - anyone working less than 1400 hours should just be shot. Thats a joke. There is no way you still have a job billing under 1400.

373 - If I billed less than 1400, I had enough fun that year to make up for having no bonus. I'm so in for that.

373: fewer than 1400 hours should = zero salary and no severance.

From a partner's point of view: how pissed do you think the partners at Skadden are? They are paying double market.

378 - if i were a partner at Skadden i would find every associate with under 1600 hrs and light their desk on fire to keep them from doubling up.

378: Not for long once all the other national firms jump in.

I hope Ruegger gets bent over against his will and gets his balloon knot ripped open, pants around ankles, in full view of the associates.

*outlining con law while tears are streaming down my face b/c i'm thinking about my summer working for a judge for free and going home to my pest-infested sublet in some shitty city and opening another cup of noodles all while thinking about what could have been if it wasn't for the economy*

all i wanted was models and bottles and now i'm stuck with coors and whores...life is so cruel!

-nervous T-10 1L
email job leads to nervoust101l@yahoo.com

Any news about Debevoise? Heard they are matching Skadden. Not sure yet. They had a wonderful year till now.

How is it that Ropes feels safe when they do so much PE? Does this have to do with the fact that they do mostly mid-market stuff? Is the same true respecting Kirkland?

Any news about Debevoise? Heard they are matching Skadden. Not sure yet. They had a wonderful year till now.

1st year associates got 30K in 2000 when a STB partner made like $1.5mm, maybe. These clowns just got greedier and more personally leveraged. I hope their kids fall off their horses at riding practice.

DIAF STB.

THIS IS THE FINAL YEAR OF RECKONING for most lawyers. Gone are the days when clients will pay $300/hr for some snot-nosed 25 y/o with no w/e to do doc review and proof-read a merger agreement, just b/c he did well on his Torts exam and graduated in the top 25% from GULC.

The REAL ballers will be the truly brilliant and exceptional and talented associates who actually add real value from Day 1. Think associates from:

Wachtell in NY,
Kellogg Huber in DC,
Susman Godfrey in Houston,
Bartlit Beck in Chicago,
Williams & Connolly in DC,
Keker & Van Nest in San Francisco,
a couple others (Munger?)

5 years from now, Skadden and the rest of the "vault" (what a joke!) 5 or 10 or whatever will be lucky to be paying 1st years $125k with $5k in bonuses w/ no health insurance. So enjoy it while it lasts, kiddos. This is the beginning of a real, way overdue shake out of the men from the boys.

Think about it -- all of the salary increases occurred in the last few years, which created all BS paper wealth. What makes anyone think that the investment banking community could cease to exist w/ little or no effect on the legal industry??

- Senior Partner

373 - kind of. under 1200 = no bonus at skadden. it also = fired.

387=law student with an offer from Kellogg Huber

387 - A senior partner using the term "ballers"?

387=law student with an offer from Kellogg Huber

Nixon Peabody is going to $125K in Rochester, NY, where you can buy a great 4 bedroom home, with great public schools, for $150K and "commute" 10 minutes to work! You won't miss NYC, since you'll work there frequently, but as a guest, not a slug. Signed, Abygail (dog).

387: rancid Keker trolling, everyone knows that Munger, Quinn and even Irell are much better firms.

382: brilliant - i've been harsh on you before but you redeemed yourself with this post.

LOL @ 60 & 95

for all of you that think Weil will come through...it's always refreshing to see the ignorance of youth.

weil come through with big skadden like bonuses...that's grand. real grand.

Nervous T-10 1L, did you *really* think it was easy to get a firm gig as a 1L in any economy? Almost all the guys at my law school failed at this endeavor, only to get cush firm jobs as 2Ls and post-grad.

(Hint: your sense of entitlement to that $3k/week is what makes people hate you)

400th!

Ok, maybe not. Damn. I'm so TTT.

--397

Jesus, these bonuses suck. And senior associates are getting hosed. I can't believe Skadden is paying more than these clowns.

I can't believe the tone of this board. Associates at Cravath, Simpson, Skadden and all other firms should be thankful that they have great jobs with fantastic long term prospects. The idea that associates are entitled to any bonus is crazy, particularly in the current environment. And the idea that all firms have to match in the current environment is equally as crazy. No one is going to make a decision on which firm to join because of the bonus amounts paid this year --- and if they do, who cares --- there are thousands and thousands of law students (and for that matter lawyers) that would kill to work for Cravath. Get real and quit whining.

Has anyone noticed that you can get a Sandra Day O'Connor autographed baseball on eBay?!!!

I can't believe the tone of this board. Associates at Cravath, Simpson, Skadden and all other firms should be thankful that they have great jobs with fantastic long term prospects. The idea that associates are entitled to any bonus is crazy, particularly in the current environment. And the idea that all firms have to match in the current environment is equally as crazy. No one is going to make a decision on which firm to join because of the bonus amounts paid this year --- and if they do, who cares --- there are thousands and thousands of law students (and for that matter lawyers) that would kill to work for Cravath. Get real and quit whining.

I can't believe the tone of this board. Associates at Cravath, Simpson, Skadden and all other firms should be thankful that they have great jobs with fantastic long term prospects. The idea that associates are entitled to any bonus is crazy, particularly in the current environment. And the idea that all firms have to match in the current environment is equally as crazy. No one is going to make a decision on which firm to join because of the bonus amounts paid this year --- and if they do, who cares --- there are thousands and thousands of law students (and for that matter lawyers) that would kill to work for Cravath. Get real and quit whining.

396: i know it was no guarantee (only 30% got firm jobs at mich last year) but there was a decent chance because my grades during first semester (mich summer starter) were good. now that possibility is pretty much gone.

don't be a hater.

-nervous T-10 1L
email job leads to nervoust101l@yahoo.com

400, would agree with your own statement if one of these firms announces PPP for 2008 over $2 million? I think associates are entitled to whatever the market will bear. Apparently Skadden and these others are not in the same market. Given that most associates at these firms had at least a shot at the others it's a drag t

400, would agree with your own statement if one of these firms announces PPP for 2008 over $2 million? I think associates are entitled to whatever the market will bear. Apparently Skadden and these others are not in the same market.

400, 402 and 203,

It does make a difference. When associates bust their tail trying to make billable hours and are not rewarded with the normal compensation, it is disappointing and disheartening. It's called incentive but they didn't teach you about that with your English degree.

I would agree that without the bonuses, NYC associates are underpaid. They're probably underpaid anyway, just given the cost of housing alone. I remember starting in 2000 at a V-20 NYC firm with offices in many other cities. Everybody got the same salary. The middle-American associates bought three- and four-bedroom houses, or VERY large condos, within a year or two out of law school, while paying their loans. NY associates were renting 1-bedroom "luxury" apartments for $2200-3000/month, unless mommy and daddy gave them a hundred grand for a down-payment. Thus, I am no longer in NYC.

400+plus comments = evidence of serious economic downturn.

No wonder the bonuses are reduced.

400+plus comments = evidence of serious economic downturn.

No wonder the bonuses are reduced.

The bottom line is this:

1. I did better work in 2008 than I did in 2007;

2. I did more work in 2008 than I did in 2007; and

3. My firm charged more for an hour of my time in 2008 than it did in 2007; but

4. I'm getting paid less in 2008 than I did in 2007.

I am pissed. This is bullshit. If you don't agree you can eat a dick.

I've been pondering...

Are we going to see a market restructuring so that in two or three years we have some law firms billing comparable rates but with just far, far fewer lawyers and firms at the top? Are we going to see S&C, DPW, etc. (and probably CSM and maybe even STB depending on what happens in the next couple years) carving out a niche of high-end finance work with other firms largely unable to even get onto the playing field?

Basically, is the shittiness of the market going to push all the other white shoe firms out of the wall street finance picture entirely? Or will it just result in the same kind of stratification we have now (S&C/Cravath > DPW (cap. markets excepted) > STB > all the way on down...) but with everyone earning less and doing smaller, crappier deals? Obviously the deals are going to be smaller no matter what happens.

At 392--

Seriously? 125k starting salary in rochester? What's base for a 3rd or 4th year?

**Disgusted V3 associate begins updating resume**

392, you're a winner. Maybe if CSM and STB had a theme song.

411 - it just dont matter. bush and cheney fucked you. the money spent in iraq was pissed down a rathole and hollowed out our economy. pray the democrats can dig us all out from this bush/cheney shithole.

Wilmer New York will match the Skadden model per one of the old guard partners with a finger on the pulse.

Maybe securitization is finished, but M&A is not going to disappear or be reduced by 40% or whatever over the long or medium term. Maybe next year will be bad, but the creative destruction of the American economy has always been driven by M&A. Check out the original Dow components. Where are they now--here in different forms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dow_Jones_Industrial_Average

I wonder if people would be complaining quite as much is Skadden wasn't giving out what they are. I'm guessing that's a lot of what rubs people the wrong way.

What a motherfuckin' TTT. Skadden has really vaulted by the Vault rankings with its bonus announcements and putting these allegedly blue chip firms - Cravath et al TO SHAME.

418 - I think that's exactly right. A lot of the complaining here is about the fact that Skadden is paying more. If Skadden, CSM, and STB had all come out with the same bonus, people would probably be a lot less critical until they had a chance to look at this year's PPP.

Wall Street is getting smaller. Big banks are going down. Hedge funds and private equity firms are next. Demand for high-priced corporate and finance type lawyers is dropping like a stone. The big firms will need less lawyers. Both associates and partners are at risk.

321- Things aren't "grim" at Latham. . .they aren't great, but they certainly aren't grim. You don't know what you're talking about. . .

WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO CURRENT 3LS EXPECTING TO START WORK IN SEPT 2009???????????????????????

WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO CURRENT 3LS EXPECTING TO START WORK IN SEPT 2009???????????????????????

WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO CURRENT 3LS EXPECTING TO START WORK IN SEPT 2009???????????????????????

Shut the fuck up 400. I'm better than every associate at Skadden - I deserve a bigger bonus than those morons not fucking half of what those idiots are earning. So moron, I am pissed off not because I believe I am entitled to a huge bonus but because I believe I am at the very least entitled to the same bonus as a loser Skadden associate.

WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO CURRENT 3LS EXPECTING TO START WORK IN SEPT 2009???????????????????????

423: you're going to get your offer rescinded for typing in all caps, that's what is going to happen.

geez...i thought i was nervous.

-nervous T-10 1L
email job leads to nervoust101l@yahoo.com

Really, really glad I got out of biglaw. Yes, I make half the salary with no bonus, but government work is good/steady/decent hours (not 9-5, but good for NYC), the people are *infinitely* better to deal and work with, and I have a solid upper-middle-class salary in NYC. It won't make me rich, but for the time being, it's a good gig.

Former biglaw associate with no more loans (other than a reasonable mortgage) to worry about.

Seriously kids, the grown ups are talking money. Take it outside.

Competitive compensation my ass.

This is such old news. Yes, we all were traumatized after Cravath. But everyone should have known the other firms would fall into line. Get over it.

Are we actually going to see a big round of firms rescinding offers to 3L's? Should I be switching to an all cereal/canned-soup diet?

426 - Sulk and bitch on your own time. Get back to work, half-Skadden-boy!

Are attorneys really so shortsighted to believe that just because Ibanks were the previous source of busieness that noting will pop up to take their place?

NERVOUS T-10 1L,
LET'S BE FRIENDS. I'LL GET YOU A JOB AT HALF-SKADDEN OR SKADDEN MARK, YOUR PICK.
WITH LOVE,
3L CAPS LOCK

NERVOUS T-10 1L,
LET'S BE FRIENDS. I'LL GET YOU A JOB AT HALF-SKADDEN OR SKADDEN MART, YOUR PICK.
WITH LOVE,
3L CAPS LOCK

For the person that keeps asking about when PPP numbers come out - AmLaw published the 2007 firm financials in May 2008. This data takes a while to come out.

Technical questions:
1) Is the financial data reported in AmLaw and other sources collected revenue or does it include accounts receivable for the year as well? If its the latter, then it means the financial numbers will be inflated with uncollected payments.

2) 158 mentioned that firms don't operate with retained earnings. That doesn't make sense. For example, Cravath is about to watch its operating costs balloon because its rent is going to increase by a factor of 2.5x in January. It makes sense for them to hold onto as much cash as possible.

3) 411, you may have billed more hours of higher quality work at a higher rate than in 2007, but if the firm hasn't been able to collect on its bills because the credit crunch has killed off clients' cash flow, where's the money coming from? Just like financial commentators and consumer advocates are arguing that people should be allowed to negotiate down their mortgages to avoid defaulting, don't you think firm management is negotiating down bills so they can collect, thus undoing your neat more hours x higher rate view of things.

I TOLD U BITCHES!

- 296 (see Cravath post)

434,

Since a lot of the "wealth" that was fueling the expansion of white shoe firm ranks and lawyer salaries was an i-bank generated illusion, I think people are rightfully worried about how far the market has to fall before we hit bottom. There is a real demand for smart transactional attorneys, but it can support far, far fewer attorneys than are currently in the market.

The internet is truly a cesspool of stupidity and bullshit.
I'm positive that 95% of the worthless, asinine comments on this site come from NYC'ers. NYC - get over yourself. Corporate law is for dull, intellectually stunted douche-bags who would still play beer pong if they could. And NYC has become a cesspool of dull, conformist finance and legal douche-bags and the vapid women who love them.

STB TO 190!

411 - perhaps you were simply overpaid in 2007.

the "Not God Bless America - God Damn America" reference by Elie is by far the funniest thing he has posted since taking over as editor. What the hell is up the collective arse of the readers who were offended by it? Just bizarre.

I think its safe to say that the reputation STB got as a compensation leader from raising to 160 is out the window.

416- You are absolutely correct. I have heard precisely the same thing from partners in the know

From Vault's 2009 Guide:

Simpson associates “never have to worry about [the firm] not matching,” both in salaries and bonuses.

Pure hilarity.

Milbank is matching Skadden. Just heard it from a partner (who will remain nameless) on the executive committee.

omg even Crane, Poole & Schmidt is broke :(

There are a number of firms in New York with a well rounded practice and a balanced book of business with clients in a variety of industries. These firms have the wherewithal to pay what Skadden in paying and not imperil their future.

I think the speed at which Cravath and Simpson came out is telling of how bad a spot they must be in.

9- this isnt autoadmit?

sss

Which firms have pro-rated bonuses? Which don't?

Does anyone else think that the "GDA" quote at the start of this post is out of line? If there's not either a satisfactory explanation or apology, I'm done with this blog. No page views. No ad clicks.

Please listen to yourselves. You are disgusting. We should all be happy to even have jobs in this economy. Especially "high-paying" ones. $17,500 is still a lot of money. It's over a third of what the average American family makes in a year. Yes, it's not as much as in the past, but wasn't that to be expected? Did anyone really think bonuses were going to stay the same?

So please, stop complaining so much. You are doing a disservice to the legal profession and making yourself (and all Big Law associates) look like a money-grubbing whore. The economy will get better eventually, and then we can go back to getting absurdly high bonuses and salaries. But for now, it only makes sense that they are lower.

Do partners look like they are money grubbing whores by shorting bonuses to their employees, raising rates on their clients and lining their pockets?

447: You know that we have a 3-man exec committee, and you surely did not hear it from Mel.

Does the article that 357 is referring to about S&C being well positioned exist? I would be interested to read it.

453: no, my fragile emotions are still strong enough to handle a legal tabloid blogger referencing the words of some random psycho preacher. Your mileage may vary.

387 - I don't think "paper wealth" means what you think it means. Also, because of that, I doubt you are a senior partner. Unless your firm is a piece of shit. Plus, those firms you mention do not have nearly the bandwidth to do all the high-end work that there is. You=stupid.

422, this is 321. I certainly know what I'm talking about. Ballpark the percentage of NY associates that will hit 1900 hours without pro bono. Then compare both that number and average hours per associate to 2007, 2008. Yes, overseas offices are doing better, but that doesn't help NY. Partner quote: "I just don't see how we can keep all the people here busy next year."

I like how all the non-NYCers cite the equivalence of their salaries as evidence that their city is as good as NYC.

Think about economics people - that your firms pay you the same in bum-F Houlanteapollas is a sign that they have to pay you to live there.

That extra amount of money you enjoy over NYCers is a premium, and a perfect measure of exactly how much your firm has to pay people who would rather live in NYC to live there.

To review:
That people are willing to take less $$ to live in NYC = they like living there

That people demand to get paid the NYC equivalent of $320k to live in Houlanteapollas = these cities really such but people are willing to put up with it for enough $$.

That is all.

I should have gone to med school. You were right, Mom, I'm sorry.

437 and others who think that firms aren't collecting money that they have billed: You Are Wrong. If a big firm bills time to a client, it gets paid, bad economy or not. Attorneys' fees are an admin claim in bankruptcy, and they're a pittance to most clients anyway. You need to stop listening to contract attorneys at S&C. I wouldn't know a contract attorney from my firm if he walked into my office wearing a nametag. Eat a dick.

-411

DPW JUST MATCHED SKADDEN.

440 - if you only hang out in Murray Hill and the Meat Packing District your description of present day NYC is correct. Fortunately, we also have the village, Astoria, lower east side, Brooklyn et al.

@440: As a corporate attorney in New York, I can say you are absolutely correct. Going out in this city I see thousands of the same person with very little to differentiate them. Now I truly understand why my lawyer and banker friends loved American Psycho--the whole theme of the book is how everyone is the same. I think they realize they are the same and wish to god they had something unique about themselves, so they fall in love with Patrick Bateman because he's what they wish they could be.

I'm at Bracewell, Houston b!tches and the firm matched NY 2007 bonuses. As a 4th year with a 4300 sq ft house and a pool all I can say is "suck it". New York is well on it's way to being the next Detroit - enjoy.

I think Henry Hill said it best:

Business bad? Fuck you, pay me. Oh, you had a fire? Fuck you, pay me. Place got hit by lightning huh? Fuck you, pay me.

465 - you sound like a wanna be hipster. after this bonus cut youre gonna have to cut down on your skinny jeans quotient next year.

467..but you live in Houston....how exciting.

I don't understand you people. You make at least 160 w/out bonus. I've been surviving and paying off loans while doing public interest/government work since graduation (and no, my school does not have good public interest loan repayment). Let's say you're making 200. That's about 110 after taxes, right? What the heck are you doing with all that money? I live in DC, not NYC, but my expenses before loans are between 1900 to 2400 a month, and I live comfortably.

453 is a pussy

I'm at Bracewell, Houston b!tches and the firm matched NY 2007 bonuses. As a 4th year with a 4300 sq ft house and a pool all I can say is "suck it". New York is well on it's way to being the next Detroit - enjoy.

473 - but you live in Houston....

473 - but you live in Houston....that's like being the smartest guy with down syndrome

437, here are your answers...

Technical questions:
1) Is the financial data reported in AmLaw and other sources collected revenue or does it include accounts receivable for the year as well? If its the latter, then it means the financial numbers will be inflated with uncollected payments. ANSWER: PPP is purely cash on a caledar year basis; cash in the door by Dec. 31 minus expenses paid that year /number of partners.

2) 158 mentioned that firms don't operate with retained earnings. That doesn't make sense. For example, Cravath is about to watch its operating costs balloon because its rent is going to increase by a factor of 2.5x in January. It makes sense for them to hold onto as much cash as possible. ANSWER: It's a partnership, not a corporation. All profits are distributed at the end of the year. Firms, of course, can build up cash through capital contributions of the partners.

3) 411, you may have billed more hours of higher quality work at a higher rate than in 2007, but if the firm hasn't been able to collect on its bills because the credit crunch has killed off clients' cash flow, where's the money coming from? Just like financial commentators and consumer advocates are arguing that people should be allowed to negotiate down their mortgages to avoid defaulting, don't you think firm management is negotiating down bills so they can collect, thus undoing your neat more hours x higher rate view of things. Answer: Yes, for sure. Collections very difficult this year and a lot of whealing and dealing going on to get something in the door by year end.

Did you guys think its worth the extra $$ for the V-10 in the M5? It's only about $30K.

-Skadden Associate

"We should all be happy to even have jobs in this economy. Especially "high-paying" ones. $17,500 is still a lot of money. It's over a third of what the average American family makes in a year."

The average American family doesn't have $150,000 in student loan debt either. I've resigned myself to never affording a decent house if I stay in the NY area, but I'd love to end my indentured servitude. I'm so glad that I work at one of the half-Skadden firms and, despite my 2400 hours, will only get enough after taxes to pay 1/15th of my student loans. And, of course, I'm "rich" so I don't need to be able to deduct my student loan interest from my taxes.

bad economy or not, when people work the same (or more) as they did the year before and their bonuses are drastically cut, they should have a right to bitch. Students, such as myself, who work for restaurants, law clerk at firms, flip burgers, whatever, bitch when their jobs pay them less. So why can't attorneys do the same?

-Lotsalove

475 = hilarious. I really needed that laugh so thanks. Tell me more....

447 -- Not a chance in hell Milbank is matching Skadden. They will match Cravath this week.

I would kill for any bonus right now because my practice group is deader than Elvis and Jerry Garcia put together. I am just content with having continued gainful (?) employment. I do feel sorry for people that have busted their nuts over the last year and got shafted, but your less fortunate brothers at cheaper V50 firms that have hours-based bonuses are still envious. Can us un-bonused lawyers get TARP money?

298:

L.A having better restaurants that NYC is funny, but Houston, DC and Chicago having better restaurants than NYC is a truly hilarious joke.

467 and 470 expertly illustrate the blue/red/left/right divide in this country.

467, who lives in Houston, is obviously a Republican. He has a McMansion in the suburbs that uses way too much energy and his wife probably drives an SUV. He probably believes that minorities are wasting our tax dollars, thinks that watching the Longhorns on Saturday while drinking eight or so Bud Lites qualifies as "cultural entertainment," and has no idea why some effete nitwit who could only bench half of what he could bench in college would live in a closet in NYC. 467 also thinks Democrats are wusses.

470, meanwhile, lives in a 550 sq. ft 1 BR in NYC and is a liberal. He loves multicultural events in Tompkins Square Park, good bagels and knowing that he could potentially attend over 100 live music events and art gallery showings on a Tuesday night, though he never actually does because he's too tired from working. Instead, 470 retires to his apartment in the east 20s, orders takeout from Noodles on 28 and watches bad network TV. 470 scoffs at all of the Republican losers in Texas who live in McMansions. 470 dreams of all the beautiful women he could be out wooing, but instead jerks off to the same porn that 467 occasionally watches while his wife is out shopping.

There you have it. Is reconciliation possible? Not in this world.

300:

The great thing about living in a real city is that everything doesn't close at 8 o'clock at night. Seamless web? Only if I don't have other plans- which I usually do- get a life.

so, now only time will tell whether CSM and STB will be forever know as cheap or prudent firms (especially if Milbank, Wilmer and other firms match Skadden per above posters)

Which will be more entertaining? The remaining firms break heavily toward Skadden or toward CSM/STB.

I guess it'll be least entertaining if the remaining firms split between Skadden and the half-Skaddens. My money is on this third outcome.

470 here. 484 - you are right on, with one exception: I definitely do not watch porn "occasionally." I think "daily" is a better assumption.

NYC is the next Detroit. NYC is a bunch of Duane Reed going to, Sex and the City wanna be, pseudo-intellectual, superficial posers who followed the herd to NY w/o really thinking about it. They now regret it and are painfully trying to defend it.

Someone give me 5 things that makes NY worth a damn, other than the "good restaurants" and abundance of banks and duane reeds.

387: Are you serious? Keker Van Nest? They couldn't even handly the Autoadmit litigation without coming off like incompetent fools. That firm is a laughingstock.

454: We should be grateful? Really? Because the vast majority of people on this country (including lawyers) are dumbfuck idiots? Sorry, but those of us at the very top of the legal field deserve more than bottom-feeding public servants and shitlaw insurance defenders. We aren't "lucky" to have jobs. Try to keep your poorishness in check.

387: Are you serious? Keker Van Nest? They couldn't even handly the Autoadmit litigation without coming off like incompetent fools. That firm is a laughingstock.

454: We should be grateful? Really? Because the vast majority of people in this country (including lawyers) are dumbfuck idiots? Sorry, but those of us at the very top of the legal field deserve more than bottom-feeding public servants and shitlaw insurance defenders. We aren't "lucky" to have jobs. Try to keep your poorishness in check.

488 it's ok...I'm sure Houston is a great city. Steers and queers to 190K!!!

It's not that Biglaw associates are greedy per se. In fact, most are not even trying to get rich or make partner. Most just want to make as much money as they can, as fast as they can, so they can pay off student loan debt and then take a job they enjoy. Ergo, a lower bonus is the equivalent to extending a jail sentence for a miserable associate billing hour after hour after hour...

Aweful move. They should have waited until S&C or DPW announced. If S&C & DPW go Cravath then STB is fine, but if S&C & DPW match Skadden they are screwed.

Cravath holds itself out as great work but we will screw you in a heart beat, but it's ok because We're Cravath and you should be honored to be here.

STB's selling point is same work but we care about you more than the other guys do... we will just have to wait and see if that is true.

492, I agree 100%. Well said.

Where did all the whiny poor people come from? Did this site merge with JD Underground?

We get it. You don't like us bitching about how our bonuses are equal to your annual salary instead of three times your annual salary. We don't like you taking time off your night job at Wendy's to bitch at us because you didn't get better grades in law school. Let's agree to disagree.

HIGHLIGHT: Dear Law Student:

I have good news and bad news. The bad news is that the profession that you are about to enter is one of the most unhappy and unhealthy on the face of the earth--and, in the view of many, one of the most unethical. The good news is that you can join this profession and still be happy, healthy, and ethical. I am writing to tell you how.

TEXT:

I. The Well-Being of Lawyers

Lawyers play an enormously important role in our society. 1 "It is the lawyers who run our civilization for us--our governments, our business, our private lives." 2 Thus you might expect that a lot of people would be concerned about the physical and mental health of lawyers. You would be wrong. 3 Contrary to the old joke, 4 scientists have not replaced laboratory rats with lawyers, and medical literature has little to say about the well-being of attorneys. At the same time, many law professors--at least those teaching at the fifty or so schools that consider themselves to be in the "Top Twenty"--do not care much about lawyers. Increasingly, faculties of elite schools and aspiring elite schools consist of professors who have not practiced law, 5 who have little interest in teaching students to practice law, 6 and who pay scant attention to the work of practicing lawyers. 7 Even law professors like me--law professors who practiced law for several years, who love teaching, and who are intensely interested in the work of lawyers--often do not have the training or resources to conduct empirical research about the legal profession. 8 As a result, legal scholarship also has little to say about the well-being of attorneys. 9

If one looks hard enough, though, one can scratch up some information about the health and happiness of attorneys. And this information--although rather sparse and, in some cases, of limited value--strongly suggests that lawyers are in remarkably poor health and quite unhappy.

A. Lawyers' Poor Health

1. Depression

Lawyers seem to be among the most depressed people in America. In 1990, researchers affiliated with Johns Hopkins University studied the prevalence of major depressive disorder ("MDD") across 104 occupations. 10 They discovered that, although only about 3% to 5% of the general population suffers from MDD, 11 the prevalence of MDD exceeds 10% in five occupations: data-entry keyers, computer equipment operators, typists, pre-kindergarten and special education teachers, and lawyers. 12 When the results were adjusted for age, gender, education, and race/ethnic background to determine to what extent those in each occupation were more depressed than others who shared their most important sociodemographic traits, 13 only three occupations were discovered to have statistically significant elevations of MDD: lawyers, pre-kindergarten and special education teachers, and secretaries. Lawyers topped the list, suffering from MDD at a rate 3.6 times higher than non-lawyers who shared their key sociodemographic traits. 14 The researchers did not know whether lawyers were depressed because "persons at high risk for major depressive disorder" are attracted to the legal profession or because practicing law "causes or precipitates depression." 15 They just knew that, whatever the reason, lawyers were depressed. 16

Other studies have produced similar results. A study of Washington lawyers found that "compared with the 3 to 9 percent of individuals in Western industrialized countries who suffer from depression, 19 percent of . . . Washington lawyers suffered from statistically significant elevated levels of depression." 17 A study of law students and practicing lawyers in Arizona discovered that when students enter law school, they suffer from depression at approximately the same rate as the general population. 18 However, by the spring of the first year of law school, 32% of law students suffer from depression, and by the spring of the third year of law school, the figure escalates to an astonishing 40%. 19 Two years after graduation, the rate of depression falls, but only to 17%, or roughly double the level of the general population. 20

Another study, making use of the data generated by the Washington and Arizona studies, reported that while "the base rate of any affective disorder (which includes depression) is 8.5% for males and 14.1% for females, . . . the percentage of male lawyers . . . scoring above the clinical cutoff on the measure of depression is nearly 21% and for female lawyers 16%." 21 And finally, a study of North Carolina lawyers found that almost 37% reported being depressed and 42% lonely during the previous few weeks, 22 and that 24% reported suffering symptoms of depression (such as appetite loss, insomnia, suicidal ideation, and extreme lethargy) at least three times per month during the previous year. 23

2. Anxiety and Other Mental Illness

Depression is not the only emotional impairment that seems to be more prevalent among lawyers than among the general population. The Arizona study also found elevated rates of anxiety, hostility, and paranoia among law students and lawyers. 24 Over 25% of North Carolina lawyers reported that they had experienced physical symptoms of extreme anxiety (including trembling hands, racing hearts, clammy hands, and faintness) at least three times per month during the past year. 25 And the Washington study found indicia of anxiety, social alienation and isolation, obsessive-compulsiveness, paranoid ideation, interpersonal sensitivity, phobic anxiety, and hostility in "alarming" rates among lawyers--rates many times the national norms. 26 For example:

The base rate [in the general population] for obsessive-compulsiveness is 1.42%, yet nearly 21% of the male lawyers and 15% of the female lawyers in the study score above the clinical cutoff on the measure of obsessivecompulsiveness. The same pattern exists in regard to generalized anxiety disorder where the base rate is 4%, while 30% of the male lawyers and nearly 20% of the female lawyers in the study report scores above the clinical cutoff on the measure of anxiety. 27

Needless to say, these studies "give[ ] substantial indication of a profession operating at extremely high levels of psychological distress." 28

3. Alcoholism and Drug Abuse

Lawyers appear to be prodigious drinkers. The North Carolina study reported that almost 17% of lawyers admitted to drinking three to five alcoholic beverages every day. 29 One researcher conservatively estimated that 15% of lawyers are alcoholics. 30 The study of Washington lawyers found that 18% were "problem drinkers," a percentage "almost twice the approximately 10 percent alcohol abuse and/or dependency prevalence rates estimated for adults in the United States." 31 Moreover, the Washington study "revealed an astounding number of lawyers with a high likelihood of developing alcohol related problems." 32

Little is known about the frequency with which lawyers use illegal drugs, but the little that is known is not encouraging. The Washington study found that 26% of lawyers had used cocaine at least once, a rate over twice that of the general population. 33 True, the Washington study found that only 1% of lawyers had "abused" cocaine, as compared to 3% of adults generally. 34 But that is hardly cause for celebration. According to the Washington study, one third of lawyers in Washington suffer from depression, problem drinking, or cocaine abuse. 35 There is no reason to believe that Washington is anomalous. 36

4. Divorce

Marriage is good for people. "The research on marriage is striking. For decades, studies have shown that the married live longer and have a lower risk of a variety of physical and psychological illnesses than the unmarried." 37 Also, those who are married report higher levels of career satisfaction than those who are single. 38 The North Carolina study confirmed that what is true for people generally is also true for lawyers specifically: Among lawyers, "changing from single to married status directly increases happiness and satisfaction with life. Marriage also leads to greater job and career satisfaction . . . and improves health." 39 The North Carolina study identified unmarried lawyers as one of three categories of lawyers least satisfied with their lives. 40

Likewise, divorce is bad for people, both physically and psychologically (and, for women, economically). 41 Those who divorce die younger than either those who never marry or those who stay married. 42 Indeed, the impact of getting divorced on life expectancy is "only slightly less harmful . . . than smoking a pack or more of cigarettes per day." 43 Divorced people suffer from cancer, cardiovascular disease, infectious diseases, respiratory illnesses, digestive system illnesses, and other acute conditions more frequently than do single, married, or widowed people. 44 Divorced people are far more likely to abuse alcohol or become alcoholic than those who have never been divorced. 45 Psychologically, divorce is devastating: "Of all the social variables relating to the incidence of psychiatric disorders, or psychopathology, in the population, none appears to be more crucial than marital status." 46 The separated and divorced suffer from psychiatric illness (such as depression and schizophrenia) far more than do the single, married, and widowed. 47 For example, men who are divorced or separated are admitted to hospitals for treatment of psychiatric disorders twenty-one times more frequently than married men. 48 And, not surprising, the suicide rate of those who are divorced is almost triple the rate of those who are married, and significantly higher than the rates of those who have never married or been widowed. 49

Although empirical research is sparse, there is some indication that the divorce rate among lawyers is higher than the divorce rate among other professionals. 50 Felicia Baker LeClere of Notre Dame's Center for the Study of Contemporary Society compared the incidence of divorce among lawyers to the incidence of divorce among doctors, using data from the 1990 census. LeClere found that the percentage of lawyers who are divorced is higher than the percentage of doctors who are divorced and that the difference is particularly pronounced among women. 51 For example, over 16% of female attorneys between the ages of thirty-five and forty-nine are divorced, as compared to 11% of female doctors in the same age range. Similarly, among ages fifty to sixty-four, over 24% of female lawyers are divorced, as compared to about 15% of female doctors.

LeClere's findings are consistent with an earlier study of divorce rates among female attorneys. That study found that women who have completed six or more years of postsecondary education--a category that obviously includes lawyers--have a substantially higher divorce rate than women generally. 52 The study also found that, among well educated women, the divorce rate for female lawyers was substantially higher than the divorce rates for female physicians and female professors. Specifically, the divorce rate for female lawyers was twice the divorce rate for female doctors and 25% to 40% higher than the divorce rate for women teaching in post-secondary institutions. 53 The study also found that, after their first marriages end, female attorneys are significantly less likely to remarry than female physicians and professors. 54

5. Suicide

Lawyers reportedly think about committing suicide and commit suicide far more often than do non-lawyers. 55 A review of the death certificates of over 26,000 white male suicide victims by the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health suggested that the suicide rate for white male lawyers may be over twice that of other white males, although problems with the data made a firm conclusion impossible. 56 The Washington study reported that lawyers are more likely than the general population to experience suicidal ideation and are "at much greater risk of not only acting upon their suicidal ideation but of also being lethal during an attempt." 57 And the North Carolina study found that 11% of lawyers had experienced suicidal ideation at least once a month for the past year. 58

6. Physical Health

The extremely limited information that is available indicates that the physical health of lawyers may not be much better than their emotional health. As noted, substantial numbers of lawyers report suffering physical symptoms of depression and anxiety, such as appetite loss, trembling hands, racing hearts, and the like. 59 But lawyers also seem not to exercise much 60 and to suffer from ulcers, coronary artery disease, and hypertension in substantial numbers. 61 One troubling study of female attorneys who had graduated from the University of California at Davis School of Law between 1969 and 1985 found that those who worked more than forty-five hours per week while pregnant suffered three times more miscarriages than those who worked less than thirty-five hours per week. 62 As I describe below, 63 working forty-five hour weeks is not only common in the legal profession, but in some sectors--particularly big firms--it is almost considered part-time. 64

In sum, attorneys seem to be an unhealthy lot. Researchers do not know whether lawyers are unhealthy because unhealthy people are attracted to the legal profession or because something about the practice of law turns healthy people into unhealthy people. 65 But the few researchers who have studied the legal profession are unanimous that lawyers are, as a group, in remarkably poor health.

B. Lawyers' Unhappiness

People who are this unhealthy--people who suffer from depression, anxiety, alcoholism, drug abuse, divorce, and suicide to this extent--are almost by definition unhappy. It should not be surprising, then, that lawyers are indeed unhappy, nor should it be surprising that the source of their unhappiness seems to be the one thing that they have in common: their work as lawyers. "Work satisfaction affects life satisfaction." 66 Almost a century ago, Russian playwright Maxim Gorky wrote: "When work is a pleasure, life is a joy! When work is a duty, life is slavery." 67 If Gorky was right, then life for many lawyers is "slavery," as "job dissatisfaction among lawyers is widespread, profound and growing worse." 68

A study of California lawyers by the RAND Institute for Civil Justice found that "only half say if they had to do it over, they would become lawyers." 69 On the whole, California lawyers were reported to be " 'profoundly pessimistic' about the state of the legal profession and its future." 70 A survey of the North Carolina bar produced similar results. Almost a quarter of North Carolina lawyers said that, if given the choice, they would not become attorneys again; almost half said that they hope to leave the practice of law before the end of their careers; and over 40% said that they would not encourage their children or other qualified persons to enter the legal profession. 71 Along the same lines, a nationwide poll of attorneys conducted by the National Law Journal found that less than a third of those surveyed were "very satisfied" with their careers. 72

For almost thirty years, the University of Michigan Law School has been surveying its former students five years after they graduate. 73 The last survey for which results have been reported was conducted in 1996. 74 Given the stellar reputation of their alma mater, Michigan graduates would presumably have more employment options available than graduates of most other law schools and thus would presumably be among the most satisfied practitioners in America. Yet the annual surveys have discovered surprisingly low levels of career satisfaction in general and a marked decline in career satisfaction over time, at least for lawyers in private practice.

For example, the percentage of graduates working as solo practitioners or in firms of fifty or fewer lawyers who were "quite satisfied" with their careers 75 five years after graduation fell from 45% for members of the classes of 1976 and 1977 (and from a high of 52% for members of the classes of 1980 and 1981) to 37% for members of the classes of 1990 and 1991. 76 The percentage of graduates working in firms of fifty-one or more lawyers who were "quite satisfied" with their careers fell from 53% for members of the classes of 1976 and 1977 (and from a high of 54% for the classes of 1978 and 1979) to 30% for members of the classes of 1990 and 1991. 77 In the rather understated words of the Michigan Law School survey, "this picture is gloomy." 78

The most comprehensive data on career satisfaction of lawyers were produced by three national surveys conducted under the auspices of the Young Lawyers Division of the American Bar Association ("ABA"). The first survey, conducted in 1984, asked 3000 lawyers of all ages--some of whom were ABA members and some of whom were not--about job satisfaction and many other matters. 79 It was, according to the ABA, "the first in-depth survey of the legal profession in order to accurately study the state of the profession and determine the extent of career dissatisfaction." 80 The second survey, conducted in 1990, resurveyed those who had responded to the 1984 survey, and also questioned just over 1000 lawyers who had been admitted to the bar after the 1984 survey had been concluded. 81 The third survey, conducted in 1995, was more limited. Only "young lawyers" who belonged to the ABA were questioned--"young lawyers" being defined as those who were under the age of thirty-six or who had been admitted to practice for less than three years. 82 Moreover, the focus of the 1995 survey was narrower than the focus of the 1984 and 1990 surveys. 83

Taken together, the surveys show a substantial decline in the job satisfaction of attorneys. In 1984, 41% of lawyers said that they were "very satisfied" with their jobs; in 1990, only 33% of all lawyers surveyed were "very satisfied," 84 a decline of one-fifth in just six years. At the same time, the number of lawyers who were "very dissatisfied" with their jobs rose from 3% in 1984 to 5% in 1990. 85 The dissatisfaction was widespread. In the words of the 1990 study:

In the past six years, the extent of lawyer dissatisfaction has increased throughout the profession. It is now reported in significant numbers by lawyers in all positions--partners as well as junior associates. It is now present in significant numbers in firms of all sizes, not just the largest and the smallest firms. 86

The decrease in job satisfaction was even more dramatic among those lawyers who were surveyed in both 1984 and 1990. As noted, 40% of them had been "very satisfied" and 3% "very dissatisfied" in 1984. Just six years later, only 29% of these same lawyers (that is, the lawyers who were questioned in both 1984 and 1990) were "very satisfied," and the number who were "very dissatisfied" had risen to 8%. 87 As the study recognized, the sharp rise in job dissatisfaction among the lawyers who were surveyed in both 1984 and 1990 was particularly disturbing, given that these lawyers were "further along in their careers[,] . . . better placed, and earning more money in 1990 than they were in 1984." 88

Because the 1995 survey asked fewer and different questions and surveyed only young members of the ABA, it is difficult to compare its results with the results of the previous two surveys. But the 1995 results were troubling enough on their own. Even though the attorneys surveyed in 1995 had just started their legal careers, over 27% were already "somewhat" or "very" dissatisfied with the practice of law; only about one in five was "very" satisfied. 89 Almost one third of the young lawyers said that they would "strongly" consider leaving their current position in the next two years, and almost another third said that they "might" consider doing so. 90

I should note two things about these statistics on career satisfaction. First, although most surveys suggest that career satisfaction is relatively 91 low among attorneys and has been declining, there are studies to the contrary. 92 Prominent among them is a recent study of the Chicago bar by John Heinz, Kathleen Hull, and Ava Harter. 93 The Chicago study was not a career satisfaction study as such; rather, attorneys were subject to lengthy personal interviews and, in the course of being interviewed about numerous subjects, were asked a few questions about career satisfaction. Chicago lawyers reported levels of job satisfaction that were similar to those reported by Americans in other lines of work. 94 Eighty-four percent of Chicago lawyers were "very satisfied" or "satisfied," about 10% were "neutral," 5% were "dissatisfied," and less than 2% were "very dissatisfied." 95

The authors of the Chicago study acknowledged that their findings were "at variance with much of the common prattle and with some of the academic speculation (insofar as one can distinguish those)." 96 However, the authors did not attempt to explain the variance, other than to speculate that "law professors may find comfort in believing that practicing lawyers are unhappy" because law professors may "feel better about their perceived (if not real) financial sacrifice," and that "the general public might find it congenial to believe that lawyers are unhappy because it would serve notions of just desert." 97 Of course, the problem with this explanation is that it is not law professors and the general public who have been reporting declining career satisfaction among lawyers, but lawyers themselves--in response to surveys conducted by such lawyer-friendly groups as the ABA. 98

The second thing to note about the data described above is that all of these statistics relate to the overall level of career dissatisfaction among lawyers. It is important to understand, though, that career dissatisfaction is not distributed equally throughout the profession. Lawyers in some practice settings are happier than lawyers in others. 99 And "lawyers in large law firms are often among the least happy." 100 This appears to be true for both associates and partners.

A 1997 study of lawyers practicing in the Boston area found that associates in big firms were the least happy of the eight categories of lawyers studied. 101 The Chicago study, which found generally high levels of career satisfaction among attorneys, nevertheless found that "the percentage of 'very satisfied' respondents is ten points lower in the large firm category than in any of the other practice settings." 102 For the last several years, Michigan Law School has found the career satisfaction of its recent graduates who work in big firms to be declining and, on the whole, to be "lower than [that of] any other work-setting group we study." 103 Hildebrandt, one of the largest and most respected consultants to big firms, reported in 1998 that "even as associates are being paid record-setting salaries, their overall morale has reached new lows." 104 The Wall Street Journal recently reported on the efforts of large firms to stem the "exodus of young lawyers" who are so "turned off by the grind of big-time practice" that they are leaving their six-figure salaries behind. 105 The ABA's 1995 survey of young lawyers found that although over 24% of lawyers working in firms of one to two lawyers and almost 14% of lawyers working in firms of seven to twentyfive lawyers would "definitely not" consider changing jobs in the next two years, only about 1% of lawyers working in firms of over 150 lawyers were similarly committed to their jobs. 106 And while 26% of lawyers in the seven to twenty-five lawyer firms and about 30% of lawyers in the one to two lawyer firms would "strongly" consider changing jobs in the next two years, over 37% of lawyers in the largest firms were similarly anxious to move. 107 In short, among young associates at big firms, only about 1% were strongly committed to remaining at their firms for at least two more years, while almost 40% had a strong interest in working elsewhere.

It is also telling that lawyers who leave big firms rarely go to other big firms. One study reported that when attorneys who were interested in changing jobs were "asked to indicate the type of firm or other job they were going to look at, only a small percentage of those currently in large firms indicated they were going to look at another large firm." 108 At the same time, "almost no one from a medium or small firm was interested in looking at a large firm." 109 Another study found that only 5% of lawyers who left large Chicago firms went to other large Chicago firms; most went to small firms or in-house. 110

Many big firm partners are also dissatisfied. Indeed, "happy law partners are a small minority these days." 111 A 1997 survey of partners in the 125 largest American law firms found that one third of those partners--lawyers who, in the eyes of many, have reached the pinnacle of their profession--would choose a different career if they could do it over again. 112 Almost one third of them thought that they would probably or definitely not remain at their firms until retirement, 113 and over 80% said that the nature of private practice in big firms had changed for the worse. 114 Hildebrandt reports that despite the fact that 1997 was "the best year ever" for many firms "due to record demand for legal services in almost all practice areas," 115 big firm partners are unhappy: "Most disturbing is the low morale (and almost a disdain for their own profession) we see in partners who wonder whether continuing to practice is worth the effort." 116

II. Explaining the Poor Health and Unhappiness of Lawyers

A. The Hours

Why are lawyers so unhealthy and unhappy? Why do so many lawyers, in the words of Judge Laurence Silberman, "hate what the practice of law has become"? 117 Lawyers give many reasons. They complain about the commercialization of the legal profession--about the fact that practicing law has become less of a profession and more of a business. 118 They complain about the increased pressure to attract and retain clients 119 in a ferociously competitive marketplace. 120 They complain about having to work in an adversarial environment "in which aggression, selfishness, hostility, suspiciousness, and cynicism are widespread." 121 They complain about not having control over their lives and about being at the mercy of judges and clients. 122 They complain about a lack of civility among lawyers. 123 They complain about a lack of collegiality 124 and loyalty 125 among their partners. And they complain about their poor public image. 126 Mostly, though, they complain about the hours.

In every study of the career satisfaction of lawyers of which I am aware, in every book or article about the woes of the legal profession that I have read, and in every conversation about life as a practicing lawyer that I have heard, lawyers complain about the long hours they have to work. 127 Without question, "the single biggest complaint among attorneys is increasingly long workdays with decreasing time for personal and family life." 128 Lawyers are complaining with increasing vehemence about "living to work, rather than working to live" 129 --about being " 'asked not to dedicate, but to sacrifice their lives to the firm.' " 130

To cite just a few examples: A national survey of lawyers by the National Law Journal reported that "most attorneys in the survey believed their careers were putting too much of a burden on their personal lives. When asked what they especially disliked about practicing law, more than half (54 percent) mentioned too many hours/not enough time for a personal life." 131 The 1990 ABA study, after describing increasing job dissatisfaction among attorneys, said that "this increased dissatisfaction is directly caused by a deterioration of the lawyer workplace . . . . In particular, the amount of time lawyers have for themselves and their families has become an iss