Pretzels!

*nervously trembles before heading off to my career services meeting, wish me luck*

-nervous T-10 1L
Email job leads to nervoust101l@yahoo.com

Are we looking at a White & Case / Thelen merger situation here?

FUCK

holy shit

Lat,

We should start a pool on how high up the Vault list layoffs will get. I got $20 on 9

yeah, every firm aside from v3 will be laying off. mark it.

the 3% figure and 70 lawyers doesn't add up...unless W&C has 2300 lawyers.

Good post Mystal. You beat the WSJ and Law.com.

Hey #9:

"White & Case LLP is a leading global law firm with 2,300 lawyers in 38 offices in 25 countries and a total staff of more than 4,800."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_&_Case

zero notice, 1 week to pack up and leave... nice White and Case... very classy

Style points for not going the stealth route. Still it does not make it any easier to be thrown from the lifeboat.

Re post 9: White & Case does indeed have 2300 lawyers. Or it did until today. Now, I guess it has 2230.

Re post 9: White & Case does indeed have 2300 lawyers. Or it did until today. Now, I guess it has 2230.

What cities? Practice areas?

Not a good sign at all. Was White & Case overexposed in capital markets or structured finance?

Although I have given him grief, Elie got to this first (or very close). This news, and its expediency to press, is Lat-esque.

Work on your grammar and proof-reading skills and you may win the day, good sir.

my friend is summering in the NY office.... think he'll flip out when he reads this?

What cities? Practice areas?

What class years?

Change "While many attorneys go into Biglaw looking for job security" to "While many attorneys go into Biglaw looking for FINANCIAL security"

FIXED.

3:05 - Yes it looks like Elie is FIRST. This is not yet on WSJ or NYLJ.

What class years?

Re post 9: White & Case does indeed have 2300 lawyers. Or it did until today. Now, I guess it has 2230.

what cities. what class years. what practices.

all together now!

That A&B staff redundancy package is looking pretty good right about now...

Should I be posting w/ "Whittte and Case" or "Oh my God I'm going to be no-offered" ?

This actually is good news. It means more PEANUTS and CHEESE for the remaining White & Case lawyers.

Do you hear me? I said PEANUTS and CHEESE.

This post made me pee myself a little bit.

Holy shiiite. Not really caring about whether any bonuses come out this year or not. This is ugly.

Give credit where it is due. At least they were honest and upfront and didn't try to pass these off as performance related.

the problem with continued 'moving up the vault ladder' is the difference in kind between firms in top 10/15 and the rest. top 10/15 firms purposely limit their size and only take certain high level work. I can assure you that cravath never did asset backed securitization, that would be embarrasing. the corollary of that is that associates work incredibly hard. so now they work less hard. i don't think that partners are going to lay off associates so that they guarantee their associates are still working until 2 in the morning. if you look at top 10/15, majority (skadden excluded) are around 500/600 max. W&C? 2300. look at others down the ladder-900, 1000, 1200. you see a pattern. skadden could have layoffs but not really they also work incredibly hard b/c so many corporations respect their performance.

Think about what happens when our firms start laying off and the market is already flooded with the resumes of v20 associates.

First to say W&C was always overrated.

v100 to FIRED! Welcome to reality, you entitled little shitbirds!

It's high time we had an inane comment to the effect "This will kill White &Case in recruiting for years to come". More thoughtful readers will realize that W&C couldn't care less. As the number of Big Law associate jobs shrinks by 30% to 40%, for the forseeable future, there won't be any need to recruit from law schools. Experienced associates will be readily available, quite cheaply.

V5 to full 2007 bonus and job security!

Protect me, of shelter of eliteness that is the V10.

Elie: "A causality of these nationwide layoffs"

Are you serious? I don't know how you got out of middle school, let alone an ivy league law school. It's casualty you bitch.

Didn't W&C basically double their summer class last year and then have to cold offer about 40 summers? Sounds like they have some management issues. I know all firms are hurting right now, but W&C seems to be in a particularly bad way. I guess these times separate the men from the boys.

Practice areas/years/cities?

I'm sure all the NYC firms are doing stealth layoffs right now. Most of them are dependent on the corporate side except I guess for places like Paul Weiss. I have a friend in the NYC office of a UK Magic Circle firm and he's basically been warned that he'll likely be canned at the end of the year. The justification was a "poor" performance review but it was pure BS. I mean he was rotating through litigation doing doc review all day and the litigation partners claims in his review that he reviewed the documents poorly. I mean what kind of crap is that. A freaking 5th grader could review documents. So I think a lot of firms that don't have the balls to admit they are doing lay-offs will do it stealth by giving overly negative performance reviews to get people out. This sucks. But enjoy the three months severance. I'd just travel, maybe do a masters degree abroad at a cheap university. Wait things out for 2 years until the market gets better.

9 and others: W&S is "reducing its global legal and nonlegal headcount by about 3% OR notifying employees that they are at risk of redundancy".

So (1) not all those being laid off are attorneys, and (2) the "or" clause is interesting. Meaning some layoffs now and possibly more in future?

I'm sure all the NYC firms are doing stealth layoffs right now. Most of them are dependent on the corporate side except I guess for places like Paul Weiss. I have a friend in the NYC office of a UK Magic Circle firm and he's basically been warned that he'll likely be canned at the end of the year. The justification was a "poor" performance review but it was pure BS. I mean he was rotating through litigation doing doc review all day and the litigation partners claims in his review that he reviewed the documents poorly. I mean what kind of crap is that. A freaking 5th grader could review documents. So I think a lot of firms that don't have the balls to admit they are doing lay-offs will do it stealth by giving overly negative performance reviews to get people out. This sucks. But enjoy the three months severance. I'd just travel, maybe do a masters degree abroad at a cheap university. Wait things out for 2 years until the market gets better.

Elie,
PLEASE make a table showing all of the layoffs/firings (stealth or not). One of the things that catapulted ATL readership was the tables and charts showing salary increases (oh how sweet those times were).

BigTexLaw... I love you!

*focuses entirely on v10 firms for my 1L summer job*

-nervous T-10 1L
email job leads to nervoust101l@yahoo.com

no amount of mozart can counteract the dumbing down of my brain after reading a post by elie. jesus christ, man, you got an f***ing degree from harvard.

This is complete BS. I studied hard at the private high school I went to in Long Island. My parents paid for 3 SAT tutors - I did well enough on the 6th try of my SAT and got into Brandeis. Then, after writing about 2 dozen papers, and earning a 3.99 gpa in my liberal arts major, I was lucky enough to go straight to NYU. My dentist parents were really proud. They were even prouder when I went to work for a "white shoe" law firm like W&C.

Aren't I entitled to a job there?

LOL @ 49

To the question re how high up the vault ladder, we'll never know as the very top firms will not publicly lay people off due to the slow down. they will refer to performance based reviews and the rumors will be silenced by a top partner and that will be the end of that.

37 gets the award for most retarded comment of the week. This will in fact kill White and Case in recruiting once the market picks up - be it in 1 or 2 years. Moron.

42/44 -- it is entirely possible to suck at doc review. You have no idea whether the performance review was "pure BS" or not -- you just assume not, because it's your friend. At least be honest about that.

*Sighs that he accepted an offer in a largely recession-resistant tax practice*

@49 - wow. I know way too many of those guys. Way too many...

49: The senior partner is waiting to speak with you.

White & Case in Manhattan laid of 90 associates and 100 support staff today.

White & Case in Manhattan laid off 90 associates and 100 support staff today.

49 = half of the law establishment.

Entitled. Bratty. No real business experience. And expect that they should be at the top of the legal food chain.

White & Case laid off six of my friends today.

- CLS 2L

42/44:

To which Magic Circle firm are you referring?

holy cow, 49: "long island" "brandeis" folks are entitled???--if you're anti semitic law is the wrong profession

57: don't be a retttard

White & Case in Manhattan laid off 90 associates and 100 support staff today.

Not a good time to be at whiTTTe and case now.

Next up, a portion of their 100+ summers from the past summer who accepted will find that their post-graduation offers have been revoked.

They just recruited 5 new partners (DC and CA). I thought that was a good sign for them. Guess not.

This won't kill W&C wrt recruiting. ALL firms are cutting back and will continue to do so in the coming months. Think you're "safe"? Think again. WAKE UP!!! You are not 'entitled' to a job, nor to a big bonus. Good luck in the shark-infested waters of biglaw. I'm sleeping comfortably at night. And spending evenings and weekends at home or wherever I want to.

--In-House Guy (the original)

49, if you're going to poke fun at Long Island, at least do it right. It's ON Long Island, not IN Long Island. Nice try.

- Not a Brandeis or NYU grad.

"A causality of these nationwide layoffs reports that the severance package is 12 weeks pay, plus all the accrued vacation time. "

Seriously? Just look at the word "causality." Say it out loud. Does it even sound like "casualty?"

Hooked on Phonics worked for me!

$150k law degrees to toilet paper.

49 could have substituted any of the following for Brandeis: Holy Cross, Smith, Williams, Barton, or any of those other lame ass private schools where all of the rich spoiled northeastern brats go...

And with that 67 beats 37 and is now leading the moron of the week sweepstakes. When your company is struggling and is looking to lay off employees who will they fire first - let me see, a cost center like you. Don't enjoy your evenings too much son because soon you will be spending you days at home too...

54, I can confirm that tax departments are laying off. Tax associates are usually given a pass regarding their low hours relative to corporate and lit due to the nature of the work, but this year I personally know of at least 3 firms that have made cuts. No one, except for v3 (?) and people somehow still managing to hit 2200-2400, is safe right now.

glad i took paul weiss over w&c for 2L summer

WSJ Law Blog now reporting it. 70 associates and 100 staff. Not explicit whether that's firm wide or in NYC; presumably the former.

50 - why are you confident the market is going to pick up? Because it always did in the past, when Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers were around, and Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley were investment banks, as opposed to bank holding companies?

The entire V20 universe of law firms, grew massively over the last 20 years to serve a hugely inflated financial system that funded vast amounts of financing and M+A activity. That financial system has now imploded. The V20 is now about to experience its own 'deleveraging' - by shedding 30% to 40% of its lawyers. Those firms that don't 'get it' will fail (excepting the three firms - Wachtell, CSM and S&C - that will survive no matter what)

The writing was on the wall with their ridiculously oversubscribed summer program.

Whoever accepted an offer with them this fall deserves what they get.

Milbank will be next. Mark this post.

49, if you're going to poke fun at Long Island, at least do it right. It's ON Long Island, not IN Long Island. Nice try.

- Not a Brandeis or NYU grad.

glad i took paul weiss over w&c for 2L summer

NYC to 190K!!!
-Sigh, those were the good old days, when associates actually believed in their entitlement to biglaw jobs.

NYC to 190?

50 - why are you confident the market is going to pick up? Because it always did in the past, when Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers were around, and Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley were investment banks, as opposed to bank holding companies?

The entire V20 universe of law firms, grew massively over the last 20 years to serve a hugely inflated financial system that funded vast amounts of financing and M+A activity. That financial system has now imploded. The V20 is now about to experience its own 'deleveraging' - by shedding 30% to 40% of its lawyers. Those firms that don't 'get it' will fail (excepting the three firms - Wachtell, CSM and S&C - that will survive no matter what)

If you don't work for Wachtell, you should be nervous. Mark my words.

looks like it's wachtell or bust this summer.

-nervous T-10 1L
email job leads to nervoust101l@yahoo.com

33 = SO WRONG. About the numbers I mean. How many attys do you think are at Latham? OVER 2000. What bout Kirkland? OVER 1500. And the notion that 1000 is special among the v20? That would include Wilmer, GDC (or very close), Weil, and a few others. If size is key then about half the v 5-20 are out of luck.

So for their sake, I hope size has nothing to do with the coming layoffs

Entitled law grads to I DRIVE A DODGE STRATUS!!!

49, if you're going to poke fun at Long Island, at least do it right. It's ON Long Island, not IN Long Island. Nice try.

- Not a Brandeis or NYU grad.

"A causality of these nationwide layoffs reports that the severance package is 12 weeks pay, plus all the accrued vacation time. "

Seriously? Just look at the word "causality." Say it out loud. Does it even sound like "casualty?"

Hooked on Phonics worked for me!

the worst part about all this is not knowing what is going to happen next. there seems to be very little warning for people who are laid off. as i sit here in my office, i could be laid off tomorrow. this sucks.

-captain obvious

71--don't lump Williams in with Holy Cross. True, they're both for brats, but Hold Cross is for retarded brats. People at Williams are at least smart, usually.

-Not a Williams Grad

I heard that it was 2nd-3rd year litigators in at least one office that got shitcanned.

Sucks for them.

Dear 83,

A number of old, established investment houses failed in the 70s during the back office crises. (before the oil crash)
People were also talking about the end of the world, America, and Wall Street...
Then the oil crash happened...again end of the world, and so forth.

things kind of worked out ok. So relax.

NYC V10 to 190! That'll show all fo those non-V10 TTT firms who the big dogs really are...

83 - you are an idiot, but i am sure you already knew that.

86, make that anything above v3. And Sidley Austin is almost 2000 lawyers (at least as of today, maybe not tomorrow)

WSJ Law Blog now reporting it. 70 associates and 100 staff. Not explicit whether that's firm wide or in NYC; presumably the former.

the worst part about all this is not knowing what is going to happen next. there seems to be very little warning for people who are laid off. as i sit here in my office, i could be laid off tomorrow. this sucks.

-captain obvious

Although I tend to agree that law firms will need to deleverage along with their clients, Let's call a spade a spade: W&C does a lot of capital markets and banking work, two areas that are pretty hard hit as normal (i.e. not mortgaged backed crap) corporate specialties go. That, and the fact that they were super-over-subscribed for the past two years, makes them a bit different than the average V20 firm.

I only clicked once!

90=racist

42/44 - UK Magic Circle = Freshfields

As a litigation associate, I have never understood the difference between capital markets work and securiites work - anyone care to clarify?

42/44 - UK Magic Circle = Freshfields?

So are we pretending Shearman isn't a v20? I mean they sucks but weren't they the first v20 to layoff?

Woo hoo - 70 more overprivileged jerks moving back to their parents basement.

Government work looks better and better.

Top firms like WILDMAN HARROLD never fire their associates. WiLDMAN HARROLD to V5!

I only clicked once!

So are we pretending Shearman isn't a v20? I mean they sucks but weren't they the first v20 to layoff?

Guys at my high school who worked for V10 firms got laid off all the time. It was no big deal.

FRAT STUD

Word is that 38 associates from NY were let go from the class of 2006 and earlier...

To 52 and any other moron thinking about the impact on recruiting, wake up. You probably think the Dow is ready to pop back to 10k any time now too. It was overvalued by 30%, just like firms are overstaffed by 30% given the changing corporate landscape. Add to that the fact that client legal departments recognize both their own cash flow problems and their leverage against firms and are telling them 'we won't accept rate hikes.' That stops the near automatic 4-8% rate hikes that have happened for the past dozen years cold. That puts more pressure on PPP, and that leads to cutting lawyers. No one cares about recruiting right now. There will always be lawyers lined up to take offers, and no partner will be up late at night fretting that they didn't quite get the very best 2L to do the doc review a well trained monkey could do.

93 - don't get me wrong - I don't think the world is ending - I do think life will continue, just w/30-40% fewer lawyers at V20 firms.

What about the elite DC firms? Are they in trouble? Covington? WilmerHale? W+C???

What about the elite DC firms? Are they in trouble? Covington? WilmerHale? W+C???

So if GM, Chrysler, Amex, etc, etc can all line up for TARP bailouts, why can't the law firms do the same. Let's just have them all call themselves "banks" that are too important to fail and go get some dough from Ben (I'm not cranky) Bernanananananke.

93 - don't get me wrong - I don't think the world is ending - I do think life will continue, just w/30-40% fewer lawyers at V20 firms.

83 is clearly too young to remember the likes of Kidder Peabody, Drexel, Donaldson, etc. Sky's damn cloudy but not falling yet.

"[E]xcepting the three firms - Wachtell, CSM and S&C - that will survive no matter what."

On what basis do you make that claim? What makes them better/different from the rest of the V5 or V10?

-Flustered Skadden associate

I agree with 113. The firms will have no choice -- they will have to cut 40% of their associates.

Current 3L's who accepted offers are also at risk.

I *wish* I would get laid off. Yes, I am in BigLaw, and yes I am jealous of those who get pink slips.

how about boston firms?

116-

The only law firms that have failed are Heller and Thelen.

Unlike AIG, both of those are so far from "too important to fail" that the government should have put a bullet into their respective brains a long time ago.

I *wish* I would get laid off. Yes, I am in BigLaw, and yes I am jealous of those who get pink slips.

Looks like Cadwalader was ahead of the curve on this one. Should I have accepted my summer offer there? They're a lean mean lawyering machine, while so many other bloated firms have yet to make to the tough decision to lay off...

116 -- because a law firm can't magically start a banking operation and then turn itself into a bank holding company.

Elie's error's are intentional.

112 = defensive W&C attorney

Elie's error's are intentional.

Elie's error's are intentional.

Elie's error's are intentional.

Elie's error's are intentional.

Looks like White & Case jarvis probed a bunch of associates... If only I had an information crystal to forewarn me of the next impending layoff...

LOL @ 126

- 50 here

Hey these aren't layoffs, they are invitations to join the White and Case alumni network!!!

115 -- williams & connolly is of course not in trouble. they've been very conservative over the last few years. They have their own little niche that's very lucrative. They only have 234 lawyers! so what are they gonna do -- lay off 7 lawyers (3%)? If they do, it'll be so stealth you won't even know it.

I would argue that firms like s&c/cravath are much more susceptible. the big bailouts that occur once and awhile are good work but they can't replace the 30 ipo's and m&a that used to be happening every month!

How is Paul Weiss doing?

119 - it's not so much that these three firms are 'better', it is that they are smaller, much smaller relative to Skadden. Skadden will survive, and likely prosper, but it must, and will, get smaller.

please, is anybody safe if a partner thinks his cut is going to suffer? Throw staffers in front of the bus and let associates steal the change from their pockets, as far as these greedy a$$.... are concerned.

114- Elite DC firms like Covington and Williams have never had significant banking, securities, or M&A practices. Their business will be largely unaffected, and because of the increase in regulation that we are likely to see over the next few years it is very likely that they will be even more profitable. Covington, for instance, has seen over a 20% spike in revenue over the past two months.

These firms are already more selective than the top NYC firms, and their stability will likely put them in a different class altogether very soon.

SkaddenDC to public layoffs! No more stealth, bitches!

Hm, 30-40% cut in assoicate ranks will leave many firms a wee top heavy. Wonder how bad it needs to get before deadwood partners start being shown the door?

Can someone give a 1L Corporate Law n00b a quick rundown?

What's getting affected worse debt capital markets or equity capital markets? Does it matter if firms are typically issuer or manager counsel? Do any of these distinctions matter or all firms with heavy cap markets practice floundering?

Same here 121 & 124

News like this solidifies my commitment to study as hard as possible. Even though I'm at a top ten school (or arguably a top five one), I agree with many of the posters that some firms simply seem more stable and prestigious in the long run. I know a 3L who summered at Covington and he says that they're as busy as ever.

Can we draw the line at which firms will suffer?

Some bitter turd keeps posting about SkaddenDC. On good information, they have not laid off a single associate in the last year. So just crawl back to where ever you call home.

lol @ 1Ls

140 -- good call. for example, williams & connolly had 219 lawyers in 2006. they have 234 today according to nalp. not exactly irresponsible hiring (compare to cravath hiring 160 SUMMERS).

williams, like covington, was operating in the alternate, non-bubble universe the whole time and probably sacrificed growth/profitability for stability and less risk.

143 - you're an idiot for referring to yourself as a "1L Corporate Law" (noob is fine)? Regardless: both equally; no; no.

143 - you're an idiot for referring to yourself as a "1L Corporate Law" (noob is fine). Regardless: both equally; no; no.

I agree with 142. If firms are offing associates claiming that there is not enough work to justify having them around, how long before they start asking partners to get a new job cause you ain't got no work either.

Does anyone thing the BigTexLaw firms are going to be safer places to be?

But what about WilmerHale, the 3rd DC firm mentioned by 114? Arguably they're huge, especially after the merger. But the Boston side of things does a lot of IP litigation, hardly a suffering practice area even in these dark times. The DC side does a lot of regulatory stuff like Covington/WC. No problem?

142 - you are absolutely correct - the V20 is full of deadwood partners that were only promoted due to good timing (i.e., their unsustainable practice speciality prospered long enough, to put them over the top) - the smart firms, in fact, will get rid of their unproductive partners first because it is a partner's responsibility (not an associate's responsibility) to produce work.

- V5 partner

Any rumors about some of the smaller markets like Boston?

Why is everyone so sure SullCrom will be fine? Some of their largest practice groups are in areas getting hit the hardest.

Hold me. I'm skeered.

Amber, stop posting

How many associates do Cravath and S&C have? How heavily leveraged are they?

156 -- b/c they've worked on the big bailouts. but those won't last forever, and gone are the days of crazy wall street mania. pure investment banks don't even exist anymore!!! think about it.

maybe so but deadwood isn't limited to v20. how many CWT partners got booted with the 130 or so associates? i don't recall hearing of any.

154, what's bonus in the v10 this year?

How many associates do Cravath and S&C have? How heavily leveraged are they?

What about DPW? I haven't heard anything of DPW lately. Are they in any kind of deep trouble, too?

C&B NY is definitely as busy as ever . . . corporate was a little slow for a few months, but they all seem to be back to regular hours.

71 - I was with you until Williams....
and then realized you must be an Amherst grad.
Still jealous after all these years?

When a graduating class of 550 routinely gets 1-2 Rhodes Scholars and 2-3 Marshall Scholars and places ridiculously well at all major grad schools, I would think that they might rank a little better than Brandeis. They certainly have been beating Amherst for quite some time.

Milbank and Sidley announcements to follow.

What's funny is all the college econ majors who couldn't get jobs in the financial sector, and are now fleeing to law school as a safety net. I bet they're oblivious to all of these layoffs.

143 - read a paper, will ya? There's one called the wall street journal, and a website called bloomberg. Or, if those are too cerebral, try motley fool, cnnfn, maybe even the money section of USA today. Hell, even Drudge can keep you informed.

Debt capital markets? No such thing any more.

AmhersTTT

162 - same as last year, in absolute $, but paid to many fewer associates - bonus lockstep will end, and associates will be paid more in line with their individual merits and contributions (not just billable hours)

Cadwalader & Case LLP?

White & Case got what it deserved. Sorry 'bout cha.

This is some Fd up ish, yo!

171, if you think lockstep will end at CSM/S&C, you need your head examined.

Firms that are screwed are those that do the following:

1. Focus on leveraged lending or high yield debt issuances (market barely exists and interest rates on these types of loans are approaching credit card levels)

2. Firms doing acquisition financings (credit conditions not very amenable to these types of deals)

3. Securitizations (enough said)

So, looks like Cahill, Latham, Skadden, and a few others are screwed

69 - ever consider that the person is not a casualty of the layoffs but is actually someone who caused the layoffs? Elie means what he says and says what he means. :)

As employees are handed pink slips, an employer like a law firm may be prudent to retain their e-mail records. The records are a valuable asset to the employer. --Ben http://legal-beagle.typepad.com/wrights_legal_beagle/2008/10/retain-e-mail-of-former-employees.html

http://amlawdaily.typepad.com/amlawdaily/2008/11/white-case-lays.html

Yeah, I don't understand the V3 vs. Everybody else meme--that's a false dichotomy. My friends that worked at S&C last summer said corp. associates had NOTHING to do, and that many were on pace for 1400 or fewer hours.

As employees are handed pink slips, an employer like a law firm may be prudent to retain their e-mail records. The records are a valuable asset to the employer. --Ben http://legal-beagle.typepad.com/wrights_legal_beagle/2008/10/retain-e-mail-of-former-employees.html

I'd also like to hear info on Boston firms...

You think firms with moderate to small corporate practices are fairly well insulated?

180, as a 3d year in S&C's general practice group, I can say that I *wish* I was on pace to bill 1400--try 2400. This is pretty common, too, so not sure what your friends are smoking. Maybe they were too busy going out everyday with DB?

182 - As far as Boston is concerned, it is a sh*thole. Nothing else really to say...

183 = Law Firm Whore

184, as you simply being elitist? because as far as I can tell there haven't been loads of layoffs happening in Boston

183 = future passed-over-for-partner reject

182,

Ignore 184. He has a napoleon complex. Anyway, I work at a Boston firm and I'd say most of the top firms here are much better insulated than their NY counterparts. That's not to say that they're not going through a tough time too though.

Okay, I'm going to settle this stupid Williams v. Amherst dispute.

...

Swarthmore is indisputably better than both of you. BURN!

V100 satellite offices in NYC - any thoughts? Bueller?

188,

Thank you for your insight. Any idea of which big firms are getting hit harder than others? I ask because I'm going to be an SA and want to know how hard I should be studying this semester

183 -- yeah obviously you're busy. that's why you're on ATL!

* scanning ATL now and then vs. actually reading the comments and posting are different things.

188 - What makes Boston firm's better insulated that NY firms? As if you are qualified to make that statement because you work for a Boston law firm. We in NYC like to refer to those firms, as mom and pop shops.

Bottom line, you are an idiot. As 184 correctly points out, no one cares about Boston because it is a sh*t hole. Good Evening.

Okay, I'm going to settle this stupid Williams v. Amherst dispute.

...

Swarthmore is indisputably better than both of you. BURN!

What is a Swarthmore?

swarTTThmore and AmhersTTT aren`t even in the same league as williams. Try winning a few sears trophies, then you can talk.

If W&C was so well-managed and successful, why need layoffs?

things suck all over and every city will or has been impacted. law firm layoffs should not shock anyone. this should be a sign to all those think twice about spending all that money on law school. you'll have more fun renting jet skis on the beach somewhere and make enough money to be happy.

193 - perhaps the fact that Boston firms have not had mass layoffs. Anybody who claims they are as busy now as they were this time last year is simply lying, but the simple truth is that Boston's core strenghts (private equity and IP) are helping it through the rough patch while NY's core strenghts (banking and hedge funds) are resulting in pink slips at the moment.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have work to do...

164 - DPW is fine. And it is apparently official policy that they won't do layoffs. Some under-performers may be "encouraged" to leave in the ordinary course (or perhaps, earlier than usual), but there'll be no broad layoffs of associates or cold offers next summer.

I almost feel bad that I ordered the most expensive dish at the W&C offer dinner. Ah well, it was damn good steak. Enjoy the soup lines!

swarTTThmore doesn't even have a football team. i hear you guys go watch your ultimate frisbee team for homecoming.

Dude, where's the siren?

Loyal readers, please see:

http://www.cracked.com/article_16765_5-ways-stop-trolls-from-killing-internet.html

before posting. And to poster #133, I am seeking the same object you are. Please drop it my mailbox in Vanderbilt Hall if you obtain said object.

-NYU 2L

FACT: PARTNERS IN BOSTON LAW FIRMS MAKE LESS THAN HALF WHAT PARTNERS IN NYC LAW FIRMS MAKE.

MAN - IT MUST SUCK TO WORK IN BOSTON.

164 - DPW has done a lot of bailout work, and sent an e-mail saying that things are great, but...

200 - I wish I could be as confident as you.

what does W&C's "banking" practice do? it apparently was hit hard.

is that like bank regulation or credit agreements?

Official NY Bar Results page?

https://www.nybarresults.org/resultslu/results.asp

Anyone have any news regarding Paul, Weiss? Do people think they will be insulated based on their emphasis on litigation and high profits in recent years?

205 is clearly a proud member of the nyc public defender's office

207, they used to do bank reg, but they lost that department to A&P a few months ago. Now they do it, but its not nearly as central a practice area.

The big banking thing at W&C were leveraged loans, and they are teh dead. This round of layoffs primarily cut the midlevel associate fat there and in structured finance, while the younger associates from the banking group are getting retooled into restructuring. At least that's what I hear from my friend ( a senior associate in banking there)

205, most associates will never make it partner, so for 90% your point is moot...especially in large NY firms.

As associates we may the same base albeit lesser bonuses. We also enjoy a much lower cost of living and better hours generally. Not to mention some of us WANT to live in Boston because of familial ties.

I'll take less money and less stress here anyday.

Anyone have any news regarding Paul, Weiss? Do people think they will be insulated based on their emphasis on litigation and high profits in recent years?

Its good to be me. =)

-IPGeekNYC

206: is there any reason for you to feel particularly concerned about DPW's position?

W&C 's banking practice is mostly bank lending/credit agreements. With the credit markets frozen the practice is very slow. They hardly do any bank regulation, because that practice left to A&P this summer.

W&C 's banking practice is mostly bank lending/credit agreements. With the credit markets frozen the practice is very slow. They hardly do any bank regulation, because that practice left to A&P this summer.

To those wondering why associates are getting the axe, isn't it just because it's easier to get rid of an associate? Associates are merely employees, who can be terminated at will in many states. Partners actually own the business.

It's my understanding that some partnership agreements make it fairly difficult to get rid of a partner.

For law firms and prospects of layoffs, does it matter at all whether the firm took on lots of extra associates during the "boom" times? It seems that if a firm did not take on many extra associates then there would be less likelihood of layoffs.

213 - high profits in recent years don't mean anything. firms don't stockpile profits for lean times, they ditch deadweight associates.

what about weil?

Can we please stop the Boston bashing. For god sakes, most people don't work in Boston out of choice. They do so because they were unable to secure prestiguous big law jobs in NYC.

215, no, if there was something bad going down at DPW, I woul d be the last to know - at least until they can my ass. -206

205 - Fact, once you are in a certain income bracket it doesn't matter how much more you are going to make. Rich is rich, get over yourself. I'm sure Boston partners don't cry themselves to sleep at night.

- NYC associate

Anyone ever hear of Emmet Marvin, the boutique banking firm? Well they laid off 8 people earlier this week. No one is safe.

This is very bad. Now that the first V20 has 'blinked', expect the layoffs to spread throughout the V20. (And, by extension, expect a lot more groaning from T14 students). I hadn't expected this to happen - thought that V20 would retain as a show of strength. That it has is an indicator of how bad things must be getting, as this sort of decision is usually off-limits to these firms. In closing: crap.

I blueberry farted a mean jarvis probe when I realized how close I was to accepting a W & C offer.

- CLS 2L

"Now that the first V20 has 'blinked', expect the layoffs to spread throughout the V20."

I'm not sure V20 firms are taking their cues from White & Case. I have trouble believing that they are thinking, "White & Case did it so it won't look as bad if we do the same thing now."

226 - with all due respect, W&C is the absolute ass end of the V20. come back when a top firm (ie paul weiss or better) does this.

Paul Weiss is doing very well. Hiring lots of laterals. Everyone is extremely busy. I wouldn't be concerned at all.

Paul Weiss is doing very well. Hiring lots of laterals. Everyone is busy.

226: that's what they said in 2001 when Shearman stepped up and "bravely" cut 10%. Nobody else followed suit (publicly, anyway). But, this economy is worse than '01, so you may be right.

BTW, to everyone who cheers the high starting salaries and bonuses for junior classes, this is definitely a case of being careful of what you wish for. Does anyone doubt that if salaries were lower, firms would be in a better position to hold more lawyers through the tough times? It's certainly not the juniors' fault for the salary wars, and no one would blame them for wanting (and taking) the big bucks, but for every post about raises and higher bonuses, well, this is what you get.

226:
Don't be misled to think there is a discreet entity called "v20 firms" exists outside of the minds of law students and superficial young associates. When the higher-ups at firms consider their firm's financial health relative to other firms, they will consider all the idiosyncrasies like firm size, practice areas, comparability of clients, etc. In other words, the firms with proximate Vault rankings are not necessarily similarly situated in terms of layoff potential. Indeed, one can think of firms that are much further down the Vault list that are probably safer right now (e.g., energy-focused Texas firms) than places like W&C.

Glad I'm not an ignorant northerner right now.

-Prestigious Southerner

I was one of the W&C lay-off's today and it was not pretty. NO ONE IS SAFE.

All southerners have aids from hurricane water.

235 - were there junior associates involved?

while i hope these layoffs end soon, i would not take a one dollar cut in pay to save the shiTTT law grads of the world. not my fault your inbred parents shat you out of their collective womb and convinced you that you were "special" enough to go to brooklyn, northwestern, or whatever non-top five shiTTThole you attended....

good luck to all

232 is right. I can't believe that even now, after a number of firms have had layoffs, cold offers, and even outright folds, people are still posting about higher salaries and bonuses.

"not my fault your inbred parents shat you out of their collective womb and convinced you that you were "special" enough to go to brooklyn, northwestern, or whatever non-top five shiTTThole you attended...."

Classy.

why would anyone choose nyc law? DC firms are more selective and more stable and, given the cost of living, arguably better compensating (especially now). and DC is no worse of a place to live than NY.

saying that w&c's layoffs spell doom just b/ they're in the "v20" is like saying that enron's collapse spells doom for the Fortune 50. W&C, like enron, didn't deserve its ranking to begin with!

These layoffs have less to do w/ the "prestige" of W&C than it does the core practice group of the firm: banking. Previously, it was mainly structured finance shops that were laying off associates. Now we are seeing corporate finance shops following suit.

To the people who think that the vault ranking of their firm translates to job security, I sincerely hope you are correct. B/c the top vault firms are heavily focused in M&A, and once the banking and securities practices are past the chopping block, M&A is next. Hopefully things will turn around before that happens.

236
Better than catching it from the commingled public transportation system.

-Prestigious Southerner

I don't think you guys understand Skadden DC guy. I don't think he's a troll who's out to smear Skadden. I think he's out there to make fun of people who post "the sky is falling" type rumors, and the way he does this is by posting absurd rumors.

I think he adds a lot to these discussions and appreciate his presence here.

239, this one is for you: I'm at CSM, I have to work 7 days a week, I've racked up 2600 hours for the partners this year, and I DAMN WELL BETTER get a higher bonus this year.

By the way, to all the W&C associates laid off today MTV is accepting spring internship applications. Forward your resume, cover letter, and writing sample to the main office. Think of it as an opportunity to gain valuable legal experience.

-Prestigious Southerner

Why on Earth is 143 thinking about capital markets? If you know enough to understand what that is as a 1L, you should know its torched. If you understand what that is, why do you want to do it? There are lots of different flavors of corporate work.

If you can't read and understand the WSJ, Bloomberg, Seeking Alpha, etc or you think that stuff is boring, I don't want you to start talking about this stuff at OCI. Leave it to the kids of the Ibankers and corporate lawyers.

245: don't worry, you won't.

244-
Right on. If not for the Skadden D.C. guy, I would have believed that the sky actually IS falling, and I would've accepted an offer by now rather than continuing to sit on EIGHT.

Prestigious Southerner = oxymoron since the days when number of slaves determined prestige.

S&C to 190!!

But seriously: do you seriously think there's any way that Obama + Dem Congress is NOT going to quickly add a boatload of securities / corporate regulation? Since no one in DC understands the problem, they will legislate.

The work will be different - but still plenty.

AND, CSM/S&C will be fine because of the UAE and the like. Sovereign wealth funds look at the US like one big yard sale.

236 Better than catching it from the commingled negro public transportation system.

-Prestigious Southerner

241 - I beg to differ about DC - it's a horrible place to live. It's got all the hassles of a big city with none of its benefits. Big traffic, boring lifestyle. Waaaay too wonky of a town. Plus, it's DC - I haven't met a single person living here who honestly likes it. Everyone is here for one reason, because of the work. I honestly haven't met a group of unhappier people anywhere.

253:
grew up in DC and live in NYC and couldn't agree more with you. The inner burbs are better in terms of restaurants, etc. That's about all you can say.

I know plenty of associates that love DC and chose DC biglaw over NY or other cities, including myself. It has good restaurants, museums, street festivals, farmers markets, hiking and VA wine country is an hour away, I can rent a place for less than NYC, I can actually afford to buy a house, I don't have to wait in uber-long lines or know someone to get into bars or get reservations, barhopping is cheaper and easier than NYC, the metro is cheap and clean, there's room on the sidewalk to walk, etc. Yeah you're not going to party with tons of celebrities or supermodels at the typpes of places they hang, but those people weren't partying or hanging out with lawyers anyway.

"VA wine country" = ha. ha. hahahaha.

Love,
San Francisco (excluding Heller or Thelen, R.I.P.)

242 -- when was the last significant m&a deal? the last ipo? when you're staffed to do dozens of these a month, you're sorta screwed when the ALL stop.

237- I don't know. It was a lot of ppl today. After I was let go. I was not on the legal staff.

Give W&C for being up front about the layoffs. It sounds like many of you have not noticed that the economy is in pretty bad shape. Many companies (and law firms) are going under and those who are surviving almost without exception are letting people go. Law firms will not be any different and if you are suprised by that then you need to take your head out of the sand.

Give W&C for being up front about the layoffs. It sounds like many of you have not noticed that the economy is in pretty bad shape. Many companies (and law firms) are going under and those who are surviving almost without exception are letting people go. Law firms will not be any different and if you are suprised by that then you need to take your head out of the sand.

236 Better than catching it from the commingled negro public transportation system.

-Prestigious Southerner

Paul Weiss is doing fine although I have heard corporate is slower. I can't imagine it is the type of place that would do stealth layoffs, but in these times who knows. The place is busy and the attrition rate seems the same so I don't think the firm really has to do layoffs anyway.

Milbank already laid people off, as did a whole bunch of firms no one here is heard of. I know recruiters who have gotten resumes of people got the pink slip from many of the V7-20 firms....

Compared to the friends I have in NYC, living and working at a firm in Boston is great .... sorry about your long hours and short penis.

Want to know if your firm is safe? Ask yourself a few questions:

(1) how many individual clients account for more than 5% of total revenue? If any one client is responsible for more than 5% of total revenue, be worried. That client may not be there soon.

(2) How big is your restructuring practice? If its big, a down cycle in the economy means lots of work. Be happy.

(3) Does your firm have offices in foreign countries for no reason, like mainland China or Belgium? That's a huge revenue sink. Be scared.

(4) How much revenue comes out of your New York office relative to the Washington, Boston or LA offices? If New York generates disproportionately large revenue, be scared. That revenue is disappearing fast, and your firm relies on it to pay the bills.

CLIENTS -- SCRUTINIZE THE BILLS AND DEMAND TO KNOW WHY PARTNERS ARE DOING ASSOCIATE-LEVEL WORK. There are way too many deadweight partners who are hoarding work, and these should be the first ones to get let go. Stop putting the blame on associates -- it's not their fault doesn't exists. It's the fault of the partners who couldn't even generate business during the boom years, much less now.

265:
This might be incredibly naive (I'm a 2L, so forgive me), but as for your point (4):
How can I find out how much revenue comes out of the respective offices of the firm whose offer I accepted for the summer (short of asking someone at the firm for the financials)? Is there any public resource for this kind of info?

Is it all associates or are partners being laid off too? Seems like partners not bringing in enough or are practically retired but still taking a draw are more expensive to keep around than junior associates.

Is it all associates or are partners being laid off too? Seems like partners not bringing in enough or are practically retired but still taking a draw are more expensive to keep around than junior associates.

Is it all associates or are partners being laid off too? Seems like partners not bringing in enough or are practically retired but still taking a draw are more expensive to keep around than junior associates.

That should be -- "it's not their fault work doesn't exist."

257,

There are a lot of significant M&A deals out there. JP Morgan buying Bear, Wells Fargo acquiring Wachovia, BofA acquiring Merrill Lynch. Even out side of finance there are significant deals (like the Budweisser acquisition). Most of these deals are paid for in stock of the acquiror, so financing isn't as big a problem. The firms at the top of the pecking order are still getting this work.

That said, deal volume is way down, especially for LBOs.

"In New York City, they came first for the TPW associates,
And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a TPW associate;
And then they came for the CWT associates,
And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a CWT associate;
And then they came for the W&C associates,
And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a W&C associate;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."

-Wachtell associate 6 months from now

No one is safe

Agree completely with 266. There are definitely partners at the biglaw firm I work at hogging associate-level work in order to keep themselves busy. Legal research, depo prep, first drafts of briefs, summarizing orders, etc. should be done by associates -- and not partners at $600+ an hour...So associate hours go down while clients pay more...

wow 273, a little tasteless?

Co-sign 266 and 274. We have partners (and expensive of counsel) drafting board resolutions and running their own changes, when this is typically junior, paralegal, or (sometimes) word processing work.

If they boot me for what's looking like a 1400-hour year...

Looks like W&C doesn't have a very strong restructuring practice that could have picked up some slack.

I wonder if W&C will be using their laid off associate's salaries to pay for an extravagent holiday party a la Kaye Scholer.

I wonder whether clients actually prefer the partners doing the work. After all, they often hire the partner - and not necessarily the firm or the associates assigned. If not, then they must not be reading bills because the partners at my firm are doing associate work.

279 - Would you rather pay $800/hr or $450/hr to draft board resolutions? What about $800/hr or $200/hr to run changes to a document? (Assuming that everyone is similarly efficient, which they should be for such basic tasks?)

"Wachtell associate 6 months from now"

Hahahaha. Never happen.

So then what is it that partners do exactly?

275,

Maybe a little, but the point is that those who think there is some magical Vault ranking above which layoffs won't occur are deluding themselves. While the V5 firms are making some headlines with their bailout related work, they are generating nowhere as much revenue as they were over the past several years. For the most part, big law firms get paid based on volume of work, not the prestige it. Negotiating a high profile merger agreement over the span of 3 days does not make up for the complete dearth of billable-heavy M&A and finance work. V5 partners like money just as much as anyone else, and I doubt they are above trimming some fat in their bloated departments even if their restructuring practices are doing well. Some may hold out longer than others, but it is only a matter of time.

When will the firms let 3L's with offers know whether they plan on cutting some of us? If that is a real possibility at this point, the firms should warn us so that we could try to find other employment before it's too late.

Many of us have student loans that need to get paid back. The firms better take us into account.

In terms of severance packages, Clifford Chance still leads the pack: 3 months of salary + unused vacation (I think, although not sure) + pro rata bonuses. Depending on how much unused vacation a laid off CC associate had, and what level bonus they were expecting, some can expect to receive ~6 months severance.

Cadwalader is busier than ever.

Thats cause there are only 5 people left at Cadwalader

At 283
"While the V5 firms are making some headlines with their bailout related work, they are generating nowhere as much revenue as they were over the past several years."

You're flat wrong. At one V5 firm, YTD revenues as of Aug 08 were the highest ever--and this was before the firm kicked into over-drive in early September.

Nevertheless, I don't think V5 associates should expect bonuses to meet last year's level. ..

285, that'd be like hitting the lottery for me (assuming that all of the openings I get from Lateral Link, and recruiter phone calls, are real).

- NOT Justin Bernold

Williams and Amherst both have shitty mascots (Eph? Lord Jeff? WTF?) and wear purple uniforms. The essence of TTT.

Better than catching gay aids in the commingled village transportation system.

-Prestigious Southerner

Revenue is only part of the equation because of very low low attrition rates and overhiring for the classes of '07 and '08

290 - Purple rules. Much better than orange.

Whoever said that W&C deserved credit for being upfront about layoffs doesn't work there. I do. And, I read the message from the managing partner on ABL before hearing anything official from W&C today. I work in DC and it was a massacre. There was no rhyme or reason to layoffs -- senior, junior, partner-material. Many of the partners were conspicuously absent today. That says a lot about the place.

Williams and Amherst are for people who couldn't get into top 10 universities and wanted to be able to tell people they went to a number one school.

226 here - appreciate the comments.
A few points:

* WC may very well be the 'ass end' of the V20, but there's far too much circularity in making that statement and expecting it to be significant (in terms of suggesting that others are safer). Of course the lowest ranked V20 is, roughly, the shittiest of the V20 firms. That's ex definitione. Nevertheless, it has crept up into the V20.

* Agree with the other poster who indicated that 'V20' construct is heavily fed by law school and young associate population. Also agree with the idea that the real 'lists' that populate partners' heads are much more practice and industry specific and take into account broader (quasi-financial) factors. Still, as far as I can tell, Vault rankings matter to firms as well. They are aware of them, aware of their impact on recruiting, and of their position in them. There's a lot of parallel with the US News Rankings - no, they're not keyed to individual departments, no they're not necessarily reflective of internal-to-industry consensus, and yes, everyone bitches about them, but, at the end of the day, they matter.

* Finally, the Fortune 50 comment misses the mark ('it's like saying 'since Enron went under, the whole F50 is going under'). A. The Fortune 50 is far more heterogenous; to this day, the law firm industry ('legal profession') still has a strong oligopolistic streak to it. Strategic decisions by intrainudstry players - particularly at a subjective 'top group' level - matter. 'Blinking' in these industries matters much more than it does in a highly competitive and heterogenous cohort of companies. B. Another key difference: Enron going balls up wasn't a strategic decision on their part. Hiring and firing decisions are strategic.

* Finally, realize how much subjective awareness matters, even in the face of supposed rationality. Regardless of the difference between these firms, seeing a peer or near-peer competitor 'blink' is going to matter. I wouldn't be surprised to see additional V20 - maybe even V10 - layoffs before the end of the year.

I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think I will be.

296/226 - good posts.

It's funny people are saying BigTexLaw is safe... I guess no-offering half your summer class is one way to hold on to your doc review savvy senior associates...

I wonder if Lat realizes that the comment threads have become sinking hell-holes of misinformation, bad advice, racism, bigotry, and Elie-related teasing with a splash of serious advice or information by an informed commenter. Alas.

Two points:

1. We should be going by the PARTNERS' vault rankings, not the associate one. they put w&c case at 25. apparently they were more accurate than the associates.

2. it's easy to lose perspective. there are hundreds of law firms. if freakin w&c is laying off, you can only imagine what firms way down the list are feeling.

THIS IS SPARTA!

"At one V5 firm, YTD revenues as of Aug 08 were the highest ever--and this was before the firm kicked into over-drive in early September.

Nevertheless, I don't think V5 associates should expect bonuses to meet last year's level."

If that happens, I'm going to a lifestyle firm where I'm not in the office past midnight 4-6 days a week.

white& case associates were given a week to pack up, staff, some of whom were there 10 + years were given 30 minutes

294 -- what practice groups got hit in DC? How many people? Is there anyone left in corporate? Am worried about friends ....

Signed, ex-W&C DC associate who's glad to have bolted in time

294 - Glad to hear that you are ok, i was concern about you (yes you, i know who you are)

303, staff and lawyers aren't equal. Tough cookies.

306, true, but no need to be heartless.

Unlike associates, staff are paid by the hour. 30 minutes is extravagant, IMHO.

245

You have just as much of a chance to get shit canned as anybody else. You think your hours are going to save you?? Get a clue.

They don't give a crap about you or your hours. Unless the clients are yours the hours belong to an equity partner. They are just "allowing" you to bill them. If the equity partner feels like it one day he/she will can your ass and give the work to a non-equity partner who has no work so they don't have to pay YOU a bonus.

See you on the street with a tin cup and a cardboard sign.

The problem for the V5 isn't going to be a dearth of revenue, but rather lower-than-expected attrition due to reduced opportunities in banking and at other firms. I work at a V5 and have been getting noticeably fewer recruiters calling as of late.

309--

there are no non-equity partners at CSM. d-bag.

It affected all practice groups in DC. No one was safe...

mmmm...i have friends who are still working in the d.c. office and they were not particularly surprised that w&c laid off people--they were more surprised it took so long. w&c would've been smarter had they fired--or not hired--many of these employees years ago. but what's with the one-week notice? trying to time it so the lay offs don't hit too close to the holidays? lame. fyi, it's easier to find a new job when the official reason for your layoff has "nothing to do" with performance-related issues.

310: yeah, that's the main worry. Thankfully, people continue to leave my V5 on a pretty regular basis for the same reason I've seen for many departures over the past few years: they're taking openings at lesser firms.

Too bad for 309, with his tin cup and his resume folder!

298 - no joke

When doing layoffs on this scale, is it pretty much hours-based? If so, can an associate partially insulate himself/herself by being more inefficient with what little work he/she has? (I'm being serious. Obviously, one can't work too slowly, but let's face it -- there are ways to get an assignment done quickly, and there are ways to draw it out.)

316 - Draw it out if you can (you know when you can and can't, or at least you should be able to figure it out). Unfortunately it's what we have to do now, even if it's only a short term fix.

what does TTT mean anyway?

318 - S&S, W&C, etc.

277-"Looks like W&C doesn't have a very strong restructuring practice that could have picked up some slack."

That's actually not true. We've got a pretty good creditor practice that has been busy as hell since 9/15.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/12/business/12law.html?hp

'Even law firms are feeling the strain' - BLS Reports 1,000+ layoffs in the legal sector in October

So the point is, as other posters have noted, Williams and Amherst are Tier 3s, with low SAT scores because of disproportionate football teams and campuses in western MA, while Swarthmore is better. WIN.

W&C always was a creepy sweatshop. Check out their Stepford Wives recruiting videos on their website. They also have been notoriously overweight for some time now.

Treatment of staff is cruel, though. Treatment of attorneys, well..."BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES."

Don't worry people. Obama has promised to make everything alright.

Everyone is on notice in ALL law firms that everyone actually has to work.
Clients have had it with bills that do not correlate with overpaid persons who really do not know what they are doing.
Stop complaining and earn your money. Dig in and work!

301. You were so close. It could have been so great.

309

Not only are there no non-equity partners at CSM, partnership compensation is lockstep. So, you'r e entire premise is nonsensical--while hours are likely tracked by partner, that number has no effect on compensation. Maybe you should think harder, or realize you don't know much, before telling others to "get a clue."

And, yes, the "you're" instead of "your" is a tribute to our Mr. Mystal.

325- yes, lazy lawyers are the root of the financial crisis. Work harder and all will be well.

whats the word from cleary?

To answer several of the commenters' questions, lay-offs hit mostly litigation in DC, but note that the DC office is mostly a litigation shop. What's crazy is that DC doesn't really do banking or cap markets, so it feels like DC is paying for NY's issues.

Awww Jeeez, not this again. Seems like every few years y'all get all lathered up, proclaim utopia, screw it all up, and then get in yer wagons and head to Texas. Yep, it's still a haven for debtors fleeing their blue state creditors; and yeah, if yer still a lefty you can settle in Austin and bang hippy chicks with hairy pits to make you feel like yer back home in NY. But after a generation yer kids'll be normal, all entrepreneurial an such, and all will be well here again. It's just all the lefty nonsense for the next 20 years that I hate - good luck to ya though,

1kk/yr min Tex, with all the work he kin handle

Every day I thank the Lord that I wasn't born a guido on the Jersey Shore or a grease ball from Long Island. The South will rise again!

-Prestigious Southerner

It is truly funny that law students or clueless junior associates assume that layoffs won't happen at v5's or any firm above a v20 or whatever. Get a freaking clue... it is very simple... assuming a firm had a securities practice that took on 1-2 IPOs a month, a couple follow on offerings, a few shelf registrations, PIPEs, shelf-takedowns, private placements, etc. and all of a sudden companies AREN'T DOING any of these transactions anymore because nobody is underwriting these deals or because the market is such shit that nobody wants to go to market and see its stock drop significantly upon IPO. Do you shitwad law students or self-important 1L CLS student moron commenters understand that this would mean that there won't be work in these same securities groups anymore... especially if these groups are fully staffed at 2007 levels? It doesn't matter if it is a freaking v13 or v24 or whatever. What matters is how big the group is overall. Yes some firms will get the bailout work. Some firms will work on bankruptices or give advice on unwinding trades to clients but when there are zero IPOs going on and nothing is going to market... firms will be slower. This will in turn affect the number of people a certain department will need to staff and will affect bonuses (no money coming in, no money to pay out). It is not that complicated. So all this talk that XYZ "will never layoff people" or "will definitely pay market bonus" is bullshit and you shouldn't looking at "prestige" but how respective groups are staffed. A group whose associates are averaging 1400 hours will definitely not be paying super-bonuses. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

Expect a few more layoff announcements this week and next. Any firm that wants to lay people off this year will need to do it prior to Thanksgiving.

333,

The south rose once and though I had fun, that didn't end well for your folk in Georgia. I would suggest that you not try that again.

thanks,

WT Shearman.

334 is clearly a bitter V21-30 associate.

Greetings colleagues. Senior attorney here. For those of you who think biglaw will be penalized for layoffs, get over yourselves. Memories are short. That is why salaries and bonuses will continue to increase, to compensate for loyalty.

For those of you who are victims of this generation of layoffs, please just try to remember that (1) you will recover and get past this, and (2) biglaw sucks, and medium to small law like to pretend that they don't suck, but they are, in fact, no different. Protect yourselves. live wisely and save your money for the next time this happens. it will.

Greetings colleagues. Senior attorney here. For those of you who think biglaw will be penalized for layoffs, get over yourselves. Memories are short. That is why salaries and bonuses will continue to increase, to compensate for loyalty.

For those of you who are victims of this generation of layoffs, please just try to remember that (1) you will recover and get past this, and (2) biglaw sucks, and medium to small law like to pretend that they don't suck, but they are, in fact, no different. Protect yourselves. live wisely and save your money for the next time this happens. it will.

Greetings colleagues. Senior attorney here. For those of you who think biglaw will be penalized for layoffs, get over yourselves. Memories are short. That is why salaries and bonuses will continue to increase, to compensate for loyalty.

For those of you who are victims of this generation of layoffs, please just try to remember that (1) you will recover and get past this, and (2) biglaw sucks, and medium to small law like to pretend that they don't suck, but they are, in fact, no different. Protect yourselves. live wisely and save your money for the next time this happens. it will.

321 - Wow, they came for the Brooklyn Law grads first, huh?

As a matter of pure economics, W&C had too many lawyers making too little money. For as highly ranked as they are on the general surveys/rankings, W&C is pretty far down this list (which is a decent stand-in for profit margin). See, e.g., this: http://www.law.com/jsp/tal/PubArticleTAL.jsp?&id=1208947716682

Interesting link 342. This may very well become the new authority for firm rankings. Financial stability, not prestige, will determine how top law students determine which offer to accept.

I anticipate more layoffs among so-called prestigious firms, but you got to think that this could be a real boon for those firms willing and able to ride this out. For one, these firms won't take a hit (and may even improve) ranking-wise, enabling them to continue attracting talent.. For another, if and when things ever pick up, these firms won't be caught flat-footed. They'll be able to capitalize on the situation by taking on work that otherwise would have gone to their now noticably-smaller competitors.

A lot of assumptions above, I know, but you have to think that any partner would realize that it may be in his or her interest to actually take a hit now and potentially reap much greater rewards later.

303-W&C staff like myself 1 hr.

ex-NY staff

338: What's a senior attorney?

This. Fucking. Sucks.

And yes, I blame Bush. Gore would have generated real economic growth with green technology. Instead, we got a corruption and greed fueled bubble.

346: He probably meant senior associate. Although it's possible he meant something like a senior citizen that is also a lawyer. Given the post's cantakerous tone, my guess is the latter meaning (my apologies to all senior citizens for the unfair stereotype).

wow. as much as i think bush is one of the worst presidents ever and did a lot of harm, to expect gore would've done better just because of his environmentalism is simple minded.

wow. as much as i think bush is one of the worst presidents ever and did a lot of harm, to expect gore would've done better just because of his environmentalism is simple minded.

wow. as much as i think bush is one of the worst presidents ever and did a lot of harm, to expect gore would've done better just because of his environmentalism is simple minded.

wow. as much as i think bush is one of the worst presidents ever and did a lot of harm, to expect gore would've done better just because of his environmentalism is simple minded.

349-352 here. only pressed "post comment" once. i suggest pushing it once and closing your browser becasue, apparently, there's some sort of auto resubmit mechanism in the browser that'll otherwise make your look like an idiot.

What happened at W&C is unlikely to take place further up the rankings -- at say CGSH, S&C, STB, PW, CSM, Weil -- unless 2009 really puts the economy in the toilet. Which is possible. If the economy shrinks solidly all year, and the real unemployment rate hits 10% (I've heard predictions of this from executives, not economists), we're in a new ball game. The economy will be fundamentally different, and it's hard for people (like me) who've never lived through a real recession to imagine how that would be. That bump in 2000/2001 was nothing.

That might not happen.

Also I think some firms have a genuinely collegial culture and partners can hack a dip in PPP. so even in the doomsday-ish scenario, the less cutthroat, more relationship and continuity obsessed places won't lay off associates en masse.

HOWEVER, trimming fat through "performance related" firing might become quite common. In my v-12 (I just plucked the number 12 out of thin air - we're a good bit higher), there's been a lot of weird departures lately. People leaving only two months before bonuses to take crap jobs at nowhere firms? People leaving to "travel"? I think firms that are doing aggressive stealth layoffs should be called out publicly. It might even cause them to do it less.

And this blog is the place to do it. Though I'm not sure how much whistleblowing there will be coz Elie does not (yet?) inspire the same trust/loyalty/whatever that Lat did. Though he broke this, and kudos for that.

Hi 346, senior attorney here. I'm not inclined to define myself because there is so much bizarre posturing on this site. Suffice it to say I did well at an ivy league law school. The upshot is that there is no loyalty at any firm these days. If you are an associate you are well compenated but you can be terminated at any time. If you are a partner, you make more but you have liability in the event of a dissolution or firm bankruptcy, like me.

Just do your best. Make no mistake, all firms are fundamentallly unregulated and will scr---w you if they need to. They will, indeed, scr---w clients if they need to. Live a bit beneath your means and prepare for the next time this happens.

Regards.

Ivy league survivor of earlier recession.

Wise advice, 355.

354,

You and others who never experienced a severe recession are about to find out just how bad things can get. Honestly, the last time it was this bad was probably 5-10 years before most of today's canned associates were born. So you wouldn't have any frame of reference in which to make future predictions on the legal market.

As a partner I'd like to say this. I told you so. When salaries went through the roof we went along but we told you that if things went south then you'd suddenly be so wildly unprofitable that we'd have to move quickly and push you out.

There is little loyalty left in law firms. A bunch of no-business partners got fat shouting "all for one and one for all!" while milking firms for all they were worth; and ruined the loyalty hook for everyone. Finally we're getting around to running them off or cutting them way back. Do you really think we'd do more for you - a snot-nosed associate who accepted our offer instead of theirs because we had lattes delivered to your office over the summer? You're a mercenary; and so are we.

And we're all free agents now. Deal with it.

The concept of "free agency" may soon arise at R&G...

357 is right.

Presumably you snot-nosed brats have professional class parents who lived through the 1970's. Talk to them. If you aren't on speaking terms with them, talk to a senior partner - most would have graduated in the classes of 1970-75.

And 10% unemployment certainly isn't impossible. 8.5% is gonna happen.

Can you elaborate, 359?

thanks bush!

great economy - lets cut more taxes! (but only for the wealthy cos "the poor don't pay taxes"! if you ignore all the taxes they do pay such as FICA, property, sales, gas, etc etc.

retardliKKKans have caused this. Democrats will fix it.

Stop convincing yourselves that at some places there is "loyalty" and layoffs just won't happen because the place is a v17 or whatever cut off you wanna use. At the end of the day these firms are businesses just like their clients, AIG, Lehman, DHL, GM, Circuit City, etc. are businesses. Be smart and put aside rent plus 3-4 G's per month in an emergency fund, be thankful you are employed and think 6 months ahead to what you could be doing if the bottom falls out. I agree that not every banking/capital markets associate in NY is going to get fired but it doesn't mean you are safe just because you had lunch with a partner as a summer associate 2 years ago. If it comes down to it and firms realize 2009 & 2010 is worse than they thought it is going to be and they are way overstaffed there will either be mass layoffs or people will be told to leave individually. That's just the way it is.

firms need to right size. not every fuctard shat out of his annoying mothers womb is entitled to a biglaw spot just because he went to brooklyn or cornell or georgtown or whatever shit hole you pick.

biglaw used to be reserved for those who were intelligent AND hardworking AND well credentialed.

biglaw needs to rightsize and be 30-40% smaller by the end of 2009.

Wow, 358, you must be a pleasure to work for...

As a former W&C associate, my thoughts go out to the attorneys and to the staff who were let go yesterday. I had the pleasure of working with many of them; they are smart, dedicated and talented individuals, and I'm certain they will all land on their feet.

Caveat: V20 associate "flex time" = less "face time" = career oblivion. Conversations with DC, Beantown and NY colleagues confirm this handwriting is clearly on the wall.

any updates on the layoffs in London?

poorly managed law firms are probably feeling the credit squeeze and are running up against immediate cash flow problems, like any other business in this climate, necessitating layoffs.

the better managed law firms are being careful managing their cash reserves, even if that means putting partner profits back into the pile temporarily to keep them from having to lay off people so that they can appear stable to prospective clients and hopefully get bailout/crisis-related work (distressed M&A, bankruptcy/restructuring, litigation, etc . . . ).

355 = Senior associate who did well at an ivy league law school

"ivy league law school" = Cornell

Cornell = TTT

"Senior associate who did well at an ivy league law school" = TTT

TTT = never partner

It's nice to see all the assholes who gloated over Thelen's demise start worrying about their own asses.

I hope you all get it in the neck -- the downturn in the economy has only just begun

The chart 342 pointed is interesting. Although I must ask, is the value per partner or per attorney? Why do firms who have partners whose value is under 4k pay out almost a million or more in PPP?

371: A firm's value per lawyer is its compensation all partners divided by its head count. The result indicates the average value of each lawyer.

Those of us billing 2400+ hours this year got d*cked over. I'm gonna go find a slacker who billed 1800 hours and give him/her a roundhouse right.

Wow, I didn't realize that on average partners are firms like Paul Weiss and Cleary were only worth less than 500k.

Hey 362 - Democrats caused this. Thank Barney Frank for forcing Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and banks to give mortgages to people who can't afford them. And that is exactly the kind of socialist nonsense that we are facing in the next four years.

Bad economy = no attrition at law firms.

No attrition = layoffs.

Layoffs = cutting underperformers.

Attrition = loosing some good performers.

Layoffs > Attrition...

334, if those same V20 firms were paying lockstep market bonuses to associates billing under 2000 hours even when times were good, why would they change now? That's why I don't think anything is going to change for associates at those firms this year. They also care too much about looking "prestigious" to start laying off tons of people; only firms trying to copy their models and profitability (which as we can see they can't do) do TTT things like that. They also have higher RPLs and billing rates and name recognition than other firms which insulates them more. So yeah, after working at 2 V20 firms I too subscribe to the idea that it won't happen at the top firms.

Hey 375 - failure to give a sh*t during Bush administration let financial institutions securitize everything but the kitchen sink. had bank held onto the loans they made, defaults on mortgages would have hit only those banks, not the entire f'ing global economy. (oh and lack of inane securitization would have meant less money for banks to lend on 0% down, no docs basis)

Hey 362 - Democrats caused this. Thank Barney Frank for forcing Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and banks to give mortgages to people who can't afford them. And that is exactly the kind of socialist nonsense that we are facing in the next four years.

378 must have been asleep in the late 90's, that's when MBS really took off. I have a good friend that did a ton of this work back in the day. She tried to explain it to me once and I'm not sure she even understood what she was doing.

At any rate, Bush wasn't in office at the time.

380: if your friend had to explain securitization to you (and didn't quite succeed), then your comment is baseless. which is why you don't know that 1) MBS, while it took off in late 90s, actually exploded after mid-2001, and 2) several years ago, congress sought to enact additional regulations re: secondary markets (obviously, didn't happen). also, who led the charge in 1999 to repeal certain reforms contained in Glass-Steagall?

380: last tidbit - read somewhere that loans originated in 2001 was less than $100b but grew to almost $700b by 2006. can you see the math?

"if your friend had to explain securitization to you (and didn't quite succeed), then your comment is baseless. "

Its baseless to point out that MBS took off in the late 90's? What point are trying to make? Who said she "had" to explain it to me, my freaking point was that a lawyer actively working in the market may not have understood it. How piss poor is your reading ability?

Just because you make a statement doesn't mean its correct. Bear Stearns was all over the MBS market in the late 90's (trust me I worked there a few years ago back when it was solvent). Sure, it may have grown after the dotcom-bubble/slide, but you can't blame Bush for its origination.

If you're going to be a smar&$% and respond back, can you stop making assumptions? The only person baseless is you.

377: "if those same V20 firms were paying lockstep market bonuses to associates billing under 2000 hours even when times were good, why would they change now?"

What a silly comment! The reason they would pay a bonus to those billing under 2000 hours is precisely because the economy was good. They need associates for when work does come in. So if they are overstaffed, they see it's temporary and don't punish the associates for failing to bill 2000.

Times have changed. There's no reason to believe that work is going to come pouring in soon. So they can't just pay bonuses and raise to $190k just because they want to be "prestigious". If they were well run, they'd see this for what it is, a time to restructure the firms to make it more profitable in the future. After all, if other firms are laying off associates, it doesn't look as bad for even a V5 firm to lay off associates.

re 342's link, why is Cahill so high up? does this mean anything in terms of stability?

383: who assumed? "your comment is baseless" referred to your comment that "378 must have been asleep in the late 90's...", not as to when MBS "took off". because 378 was responding to 375 re: cause (political and/or economic) of current economy. so my reading ability is just fine, thanks - yours? for example, if someone explains something to another, logical conclusion is that such explanation was required (i.e., "had to"). my point was that securitization in and of itself was not the problem. it's been around since 70s but when did things fall apart?

Update: At least 18 associates laid off in DC office, across all groups.

Enough with the political crap! This post is about W&C laying off associates so go comment on a political blog and leave us to business of figuring out which firm is next to weild the axe.

Enough with the political crap! This post is about W&C laying off associates so go comment on a political blog and leave us to business of figuring out which firm is next to weild the axe.

387, are those 18 included in the 70 figure?

"leave us to business of figuring out which firm is next to weild the axe."

There hasn't been nearly enough of this going on in this thread.

People seem to think that Shearman and White & Case were the weakest of the V20 firms. It's not clear to me who would be next. Anyone have thoughts on who it might be?

342, I'm not sure how relevant rankings like that are to W&C. Most firms in the V20 are primarily US firms. Many have offices in foreign countries, but the US has the majority of the attorneys and the majority of revenue.

That's not true at W&C. I'd guess that only about a 1/3rd of the 2300 (or should I say 2230) attorneys are based in the US. The rest are spread throughout the world, though mainly in Europe.

Without any specialized knowledge of the European legal market, I don't think you can compare PPP or revenue between W&C and a primarily US firm. I'd guess that a client in Kazakhstan wouldn't pay the Kazakh office the same rates that a US client would.

See, this is the problem with working at a huge, dime-a-dozen law firm. Either work V5-10, or specialise. You won't see the same problems at the other W&C or other lit boutiques, or at IP firms, or at bankruptcy firms. The problem is that once you get out of the V5-10, the firms are relatively indistinguishable.

The W&C figure is 160, which includes London.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/article5137994.ece

Watch for other white shoes to drop, fast, as this is now getting ugly. R&G ?

392 = White and Case troll.

Taking lower-paying work in Kazakhstan or Europe does not mean W&C should be ranked higher on some "real" rubric.

It just means W&C takes lower-paying work.

391: You can bet that most firms have been "reviewing" their needs on the QT for a while now. question really is which firm will engage in large (and therefore public) layoff like TP, CWT, W&C, etc.

Does anyone know when W&C is meant to be finished with their layoff communications? They started on Tuesday 11/11 and have to be done by.....?

I'm guessing Kirkland, unless they do it back-end and shave off bonuses. I CAN'T WAIT to see how bonus season is going to suck for the lower V10.

this is really depressing... I can just imagine the I-bankers blogging this way as the sky fell and crashed and they were sent packing... but at least it was a quick death. For us, we will see how things unfold over the next year... and the slow motion starvation begins... no work to go around. no new deals. hungry lions roaring at each other... until they lose the strength to roar... and the big lions have nothing but them to eat.

On a happier note. I had a banker friend who recently got pregnant. She never dreamed it would be such a brilliant career move. All you legal gals out there who are lucky enough to have found the right man and were looking for the right opportunity to expand the family...

Anyone know what ropes is doing about the massive oversubscription? Anyone know how bad it is, especially for the Boston office? Are they revoking offers? I realize it's bad PR, but for all the firms out there with the same problem, isn't it better just to take the hit and get their summer numbers back in line with what they need?

400 -- Really?

Tell me about this oversubscription at Ropes. I understood they were increasing summer class there on purpose ... friend is sitting on a offer there. Should she not take it?

Tell me about this oversubscription at Ropes. I understood they were increasing summer class there on purpose ... friend is sitting on a offer there. Should she not take it?

385 - Cahill is a really well managed firm. They use an old school business model that has worked for them for a long time. While other firms were expanding, Cahill was content with what they had and it has paid off. They don’t have a bunch of deadweight offices in cities all over the nation. Vault rankings aren’t everything.

233 & 332 - Checked the price of gas lately?

403, better question is why your friend is still sitting on an offer.

404, I can't imagine how Cahill couldn't take a huge hit. They have to be one of the worst posititioned firms in NYC.

Cahill basically does like 25% lit, 50% cap markets ipos and debt offerings and 25% bank lending.

We all know there are zero IPO's going on and just a trickle of bank lending.

Ropes had planned to increase their summer class before they knew how bad the economy would be - now they are massively oversubscribed, and are revoking some offers

Hugh Verrier has always been a liar. If he announced this lay off, - it means that he will fire much more people in reality to keep bullshitters on board! "Am I clear?" - this is a motto of this clown. I hope this corrupt firm will get bankrupt soon.

-- Ex-NY Staff

Hugh Verrier has always been a liar. If he announced this lay off, - it means that he will fire much many people in reality to keep bullshitters on board! "Am I clear?" - this is a motto of this clown. I hope this corrupt firm will get bankrupt soon.

-- Ex-NY Staff

I dunno, 406, maybe she's waiting around to see what firms are massively oversubscribed so as not to go there.

407, I think Cahill might take a hit for sure, but the fact that they were smart enough not to take on a bunch of extra atty's during the boom time might save them.

They also have a restructuring group and a sizeable group that works on corp investigations -- and those are sure to pick up with all this mess.

-- not from Cahill

408 - what exactly is "massively oversubscribed"? 50% more than they wanted? and how aggressively is ropes rescinding offers? any rescinding of acceptances?

Ropes is definitely NOT revoking offers. That is complete BS. As to the firm being oversubscribed, the firm planned to have a larger class for this coming summer than last summer, in part because of the opening of the new Chicago office.

However, the firm is telling people who are still making up their minds to get a move on it already in fairness to people who are still waiting to hear one way or another.

Ropes is definitely NOT revoking offers. That is complete BS. As to the firm being oversubscribed, the firm planned to have a larger class for this coming summer than last summer, in part because of the opening of the new Chicago office.

However, the firm is telling people who are still making up their minds to get a move on it already in fairness to people who are still waiting to hear one way or another.

- 414,

I know that even taking their planned expansion of the summer program into account, they've had a lot more offers accepted than they wanted. Do you know what the thinking is on that? Just encourage people to clerk and take a smaller class next summer? Are they worried about such a huge summer program given the continuing problems in the economy? And do you know anything about their restructuring practice?

414 - are you busy? are others?

I heard the increase in summer class size was targeted towards the New York office. Is Ropes telling different people different things about its expanded summer class for '09? Sounds a little sketchy

Offers to join R&G's New York or Boston office should be viewed with suspicion; they are getting set to eat their own young, a trick they learned from their Wall Street clients (but until now had rarely performed.) All the V20 are in play, so watch how things deteriorate, as the market slowly fizzles away...

"eat their own young"
What does this mean? What is going on at R&G's NY and Boston offices?

417 - workflow depends on the practice group and the person; certain parts of corporate and some people in lit are slow but many lit people are very busy right now. Our restructuring practice is strong and busy, though not as busy as a couple of months ago. There is no double speak as to expansion. The firm has been aiming to up the size of the NYC office but part of the reason why we are aiming for over 200 summers is because we are hiring at least 10 for the Chicago office, which is new. The firm will probably shrink the summer class for next summer, but only if things get so bad that an uptick in work is not projected to occur in a couple of years.

387 here. I don't know if the 18 are included in the 70 but I assume so. Sounds like people still aren't sure if the 18 in DC is the final number. There was no official announcement of how many people were laid off, but a head count of people admitting they were included (or whose names were heard over the intercom as they were called to the conf room) shows at least 18. Maybe more will come out in the next few days.

To 397 -- "they" claim it was all done at once and was done today. Who knows if that's true.

387 here. I don't know if the 18 are included in the 70 but I assume so. Sounds like people still aren't sure if the 18 in DC is the final number. There was no official announcement of how many people were laid off, but a head count of people admitting they were included (or whose names were heard over the intercom as they were called to the conf room) shows at least 18. Maybe more will come out in the next few days.

To 397 -- "they" claim it was all done at once and was done today. Who knows if that's true.

417 - That is precisely the issue: beyond restructuring, no real uptick is projected until mid-2010.

414- Oversubscription is > 35%. Not massive, but significant enough to prompt revocation, in some NY / Boston cases.

419- Ropes has never eaten young; go back to your TTT trollship.

403- Your friend should declare her intentions, yeah or nay, ASAP; tempus deliberandi is very limited.

Oversubscribed by more than 35%? Looks like a lot of cold and no offers coming at the end of the summer. Or layoffs. Or both.

Dear Law Student,

It is my understanding that you have an offer from XXX in ZZZ City. After talking to many contacts in the ZZZ legal market, it appears that XXX may have significantly over-hired for next summer and has a particularly large class. Therefore, it may truly be in your best interest to take another offer if you have one.

Best regards,

A Biglaw Friend Who Knows

You should all go to mid-size law firms where you can do real work for real clients. Over time you will develop worthwhile skills that businesses (perhaps not fortune 500 companies) will find useful. You will also be better situated to develop clients and a network of prospective clients. When the market changes, you can take steps to react to the change and continue your practice. This is what practicing law is all about.

It is unfortunate that so many of you, presumably smart, young ivy-league trained lawyers end up at sweatshops where you develop no lawyering skills, no client relationships, and risk becoming burned out and alienated from what is otherwise a respectable and lucrative profession.

Maybe you got laid off from big firm x, but it's okay. You fill find another job, it will not pay as much as big firm, but in the long run, you will be thankful you got out when you did.

419 - R&G does not represent "Wall Street" clients (i.e. investment banks), so it can't directly suffer, at least b/c of any downturn they have experienced

I am a former W&C - NYC associate, laid off during the '01 recession. To those of you who were just laid off, it may be a tough 6-9 months, but after you find your next position (and you will), you will realize what a blessing in disguise this is. After leaving, I discovered that working for W&C was a life-ending move. The quality of work I received was garbage, and for this I was expected to sacrifice any expectation of a personal or family life. Its not worth it. Good luck to you in your new jobs (and congrats on getting your lives back!).

Looking at the support staff that was laid off, oddly enough there seemed to be a lot of Hispanics. A firm that claims to be diverse and implements EEO -- I don't know about that.

Looking at the support staff that was laid off, oddly enough there seemed to be a lot of Hispanics. A firm that claims to be diverse and implements EEO -- I don't know about that.

I highly doubt W&C laid off 70 associates and 100 support staff as a result of the economy. I got word that the majority of their recent Summer class has accepted their full-time offer. Combine that number with those who have accepted for the upcoming 2009 Summer. It's obvious the firm is scrambling to pay out those salaries so they laid off associates and support staff. Sounds like a sloppy injustice to me.

There are a loy attorneys out there who think they are above the law. Glad to see that they are feeling the pressure of the economy.
http://www.mftms13.wordpress.com

There are a lot attorneys out there who think they are above the law. Glad to see that they are feeling the pressure of the economy.
http://www.mftms13.wordpress.com

There are a lot attorneys out there who think they are above the law. Glad to see that they are feeling the pressure of the economy.
http://www.mftms13.wordpress.com

I agree with 432. Interestingly the head of W&C recruiting came from McKinsey...and then in come the McKinsey consultants bringing the cuts we saw this week. What changes have been made to the recruiting department since last summer's debacle of too many summers and offers? None. Too many 2L offers were extended and accepted again for 2009. Conflict of interest? Maybe. Poor management of resources and talent? Definitely.

I agree with 432. Interestingly the head of W&C recruiting came from McKinsey...and then in come the McKinsey consultants bringing the cuts we saw this week. What changes have been made to the recruiting department since last summer's debacle of too many summers and offers? None. Too many 2L offers were extended and accepted again for 2009. Conflict of interest? Maybe. Poor management of resources and talent? Definitely.

Does W&C just plan to stack their summer classes, extend offers to all of them, and then fire mid level associates when they get too expensive?

It's disheartening that we lost good associates and staff to make room for over 100 inexperienced first years. It's even more disheartening because I worked with some of them and they generally sucked.

I worked for White & Case for many years, and recently left (of my own accord). White & Case is a terribly managed firm. I should have left years ago, but inertia prevailed. It is based on the "old boys" network - where high maintenance partners with no book of business (but extremely large equity draws and other benefits) are supported by counsels and associates who actually do the work and maintain the client relationships (but are not supported for partnership or advancement). It is not surprising that - when things start to go wrong - the counsels, associates and support staff are the first ones to get axed to preserve the high flying lifestyles of the partners. W&C is also based on an "eat what you kill" structure - where the partners eat what the senior associates and counsels kill. The partners hate each other - and there is very little cooperation or support for each other amongst them. They turn on each other at the drop of a hat. Finally, it's business model is almost exclusively based on commercial work outside the US - their US offices are not very good and they have little to no litigation practice to cover them during downturns in commercial work. I am not surprised to see the developments at W&C recently - the layoffs, the closure of the Bangkok, Milan and Dresden offices. It is an extremely poorly managed firm. I would not be surprised to see its collapse or forced merger in the next few months. And it could not happen to a set of "nicer" guys! Haha. Hopefully the partners will tear each other apart as the ship sinks. Unfortunately, the poor people caught in the middle - the counsels, associates and support staff - are the ones that suffer. If you are still at W&C, get out before the ship sinks!

Also, in response to Comment 431, White & Case is not a diverse firm. I know people who were fired because they are gay. Even though White & Case claims on its website that it does not discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation.

White & Case is a terrible firm. Avoid it at all costs. Caveat emptor!!

Remember that geek/nerd in high school/college that was substantially better than ALL of you at math or science?? And you made fun of him/her because your writing skills and "business acumen" would save the day??

Well, guess what? He/she is an IP (most likely, patent) lawyer now who is still ridiculously well-insulated from all this corporate nonsense! Patent lawyers still rule!!

- Very happy IP nerd

To all over-privilged associates facing layoffs. Instead of getting all worried, just take off for a year or two. Go to Thailand and lie on a beach. If you want to do something more worthwhile, do some voluntary work. Go and spend a year in Latin America and learn Spanishl. Or as somebody else suggested further up the thread, do a masters at a cheap foreign university. Come back to New York in a year or so refreshed, with some new skills and experiences.

As one of the 170 axed by White & Case, when I heard about the holiday party I was disgusted. I can't even find money for food & shelter and they are partying it up off my former salary.

As one of the 170 axed by White & Case, when I heard about the holiday party I was disgusted. I can't even find money for food & shelter and they are partying it up off my former salary.

As one of the 170 axed by White & Case, when I heard about the holiday party I was disgusted. I can't even find money for food & shelter and they are partying it up off my former salary.

White & Case is a dump. I was let go from that firm not too long ago, and I echo what 440 says about the firm's mismanagement. And, well, pretty much everything else 440 had to say. The partners really do dislike each other, too, and it shows.

Here, here!

I am certain that those who were laid off are much better being separated from W&C. Something positive will result, but it may take awhile.

Hey 440 - rejected by W&C at OCI's huh? Get over it. You're trying too hard to justify that the place is managed poorly. You would call getting rid of underperforming or simply unnecessary offices poor management? Well aren't you the management expert!

448 - 440 here - yes, when you around the firm as long as i was - and see how a firm wastes money, particularly on the benefits some of these partners get who have no viable business model - i would definitely call that poor management - and you don't have to be a management expert to make such a judgment - you only need to have some common sense!

449 -- re: wasting money and poor management, here is a perfect example from the washington office. i worked on a big litigation last year involving 25+ associates. whenever we had a brief due, the lead partner would order catered box lunches from dean & deluca, at FORTY DOLLARS per lunch x 25 associates, for a week before the due date. one one hand, that was a nice gesture, but on the other hand, $8 Cosi sandwiches would have sufficed. so guess where the $$$ came from for the expensive lunches? from the office's revenue. that is enough revenue to pay one staffer's annual salary, my friends.

Hey 450 - 440/449 here - first, I am surprised that the partner billed those amounts to the firm - the White & Case partners typically just pass their extravagant spending along to the client to the extent they can - that was my experience - so, I would not be surprised to see that $7,000 added to the client's bill - probably hidden in some innocuous disbursement amount - especially in the washington office - i know one (small) trade project was referred to the dc office with a quote of $8 million - the dc office came back with a bill of $15 million - i am sure those type of expenses were included in the client's bill - needless to say, the client was not happy and refused to pay - anyway, your example of wasteful spending pales in comparison to what I have seen - for instance, i know one partner was transferred to a foreign office (and not a high cost jurisdiction like London or Helsinki) - this partner was given a housing (rental) budget by White & Case of US$20,000 per month (on top of that partner's draw and other benefits) and he/she was complaining that he/she could not find "acceptable" housing at that rent - according to my calculations, that housing benefit alone would have supported the salaries of two to three associates - also, that partner only closed one deal this year - and that deal was handed over to him/her when someone else left - when you see money being wasted like this at a firm and then hear of that firm laying off 70+ associates, you can not reach any other conclusion than that firm is grossly mismanaged - hopefully White & Case will collapse under the weight of its own mismanagement as a lesson to other firms as to how not to run a law firm

"It's insanity" We're looking for legal aid to cope with an insane judicial system of the state of MS. In 1995 a release of toxins landed on and destroyed three member family home in a very rural area. Husband & wife told they would die around the year 2000 and only child was too young to inherit that kind of money. 1998 Husband used to accept $84 million offer of one defendant. Early 1999 joinder trial failed. All documents are on this family the husband,wife and child used to settle entire amount of a known $276 million. Documents sought $2 billion. As of October 2008 the court has settled with the failed class of fraudulent claims as the court continues to assume our death will prevent our settlement. All pro se actions dimissed. Judge over settlement now surpreme court judge, our attorney over settlement now state senator has withdrawn to prevent disburstment to this family. The judge has requested an attorney from out of state to hold settlement talks with on behalf of this family.

I will admit this is strange. Still it's Mississippi one of the most corrupted state in this country. We were told we would not be allowed to bankrupt the world's largest paper manufacture and in short it doesn't seem to matter that our claims were the only real ones used for settlement or that our home was destroyed. There seems to be some type of pride in thinking these matters are suppose to be some sort of secret . contact info. & a few documents.

http://www.mftms13.wordpress.com

Need help out of hill billy hell.

The simple truth of the matter is that you have to actually offer something that is both rare and valuable in this job market. White Shoe law firms suck in and spit out buckets of associates each year and grind them through their securities and banking practices. At the end of the day, though, there is nothing terribly special about having 2 or 3 years experience in such a practice. Anybody can do it. Unless you have your own clients or you speak farsi or something, you're completely interchangeable with next year's crop of T14 grads. With the experience, however, you're simply more expensive.