this would never happen at michigan!

*goes back to stealing sandwiches*

-nervous T-10 1L
email job leads to nervoust101L@yahoo.com

This would never happen at UVA.

UVA2L

I am CONFIDENT the career service office at my school will continue to function well.

-Confident T14 2L

What's the story here?

It seems like yesterday that Thelen still mattered

I DEMAND MOAR LAYOFF RUMORS

3 is right. This would never happen at UVA. Incompetence in career services and arbitrary grading systems still reign supreme here!

CLS grad who works at EAPD. I have zero to add to this or any other discussion but because both my law school and firm are in the news I MUST COMMENT.

8 is credited on the terrible career services at UVA (and I've worked with them both as a student and as a recruiter).

But bitching about "arbitrary grading" is indicative of someone who just couldn't hack it.

Oh god, Natasha Patel is the WORST!! I had a meeting with her last year and she was so incredibly unhelpful. She gave me no advice and was genuinely annoyed that I was asking for help. Total bitch, terrible move CLS.

100% = BS

The only reason the pass/fail system is catching on is because the uber-liberal schools are trying to hide under-performance by affirmative action admits. Right now it's too hard for them to promote diversity and academics because they take too narrow a view on which types of diversity matter.

This will get them motivated:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka_Hcn_D4mo

FWIW, Stephen Buchman, an older guy who works in the CLS career services office, is genuinely helpful and nice.

ATL could do a better job deleting sexist ignorance. What benefit do we derive from reading the sexist remark about the woman who runs the clerkship office? "all she does is have babies" is just ridiculous.

I just can't understand how no one at ATL found that comment to be disturbing.

Sad to see her go. But #13, which affirmative action admits are you speaking of?

The people that I see struggling are generally the same people that went to IVYs or high ranked undergrads that went straight through. Minorities, people that worked before law school and "creative types" have generally been excelling.

Just who exactly are you talking about under the umbrella of "affirmative action admits"?

16 = woman who runs the clerkship office

Maybe original statement should be amended to read: "all she does is have babies AND POST COMMENTS ON ATL!!!!!!!!"

Dear 16, enough of the anonymous self denfense. We know you're that woman!!!!

and now 19, we know that you're an asshole.

signed,
not 16

and now 19, we know that you're an asshole.

signed,
not 16

no, 20. YOU ARE ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Number 10 is credited for crediting my comment about career services.

But no credit is given for reading way too much into my comment about arbitrary grading systems. I happen to be doing just fine on the grading system, and I support keeping it (it got me a V20 job). Nonetheless, the idea that plus/minus letter grading is the only legitimate system and isn't arbitrary strikes me as claiming too much. It's arbitrary but it does the job.

However--and I think you proved my point on this--there is a sizeable contingent of d-bags at UVA who would have a very hard time functioning if they couldn't believe at all points during the day that they were superior to all their classmates. And without grades, how would they know? How could they know they were justified in droning on endlessly in class? How would they know they are justified in rudely contradicting professors in front of the entire class on esoteric points that no one cares about? How could they know that it's safe to get out of bed and face the world?

They wouldn't because they would have no grades. Their lives would be meaningless and without meaning.

Then they'd probably have to quit studying and get a life or something.

if i swear, then it means more.

signed,
21

if i swear, then it means more.

signed,
21

if i swear, then it means more.

signed,
21

Stop having babies! If this was Paul Hastings you would be out on your ass!!

seriously, who the f is the woman in the clerkship office and why do we care about this?

i thought the article was about grades. what gives?

-18 and 19 (and 22, 24-26)

IF I WRITE IN ALL CAPS, THEN PEOPLE WILL LISTEN TO ME AND IT WILL TOTALLY DISPROVE THAT I AM AN ASSHOLE.

!!!!
-19/24/25/26

IF I WRITE IN ALL CAPS, THEN PEOPLE WILL LISTEN TO ME AND IT WILL TOTALLY DISPROVE THAT I AM AN ASSHOLE.

!!!!
-19/24/25/26/22

My friend had bad grades and yet got a V5 offer. Maybe our career services isn't so bad after all?

29, 30,

Really? On a Friday, dude?

Uh...what if it's factually correct that she tends to be on maternity leave when the school most needs her? Then, with a little hyperbole, all she does is have babies. No sexism.

CLS career services is fine. EIP runs smoothly and students do extremely well with top law firms. People are bitching for the sake of bitching.

wait, CLS is trying to place babies in clerkships?

this woman should have been fired! everyone knows that babies can't clerk.

34,

Ummmmm...it's Friday, dude. Who isn't bitchnig for the sake of bitching?

#35, I wish someone would tell that to judges that hire out of YLS.

36: People who waited 5 hours to find out they failed the NY bar. They're bitching for good reason.

And the reason is they suck at life. ...And the bar.

nervous T-10 1L,

call me.

29/30

Yawn. CLS students will still place incredibly well in biglaw after this woman's resignation. What's the story? Will having a new dean change any biglaw hiring committee's perception of CLS students??

agree with 40 - this is what gossip media does. there's really no buzz going around law school at all, and every 2L i know just finished making their "tough" decision between cravath and weil...

making a story for the sake of making a story...

CLS = Miscarriage of Justice

23,

My experience was that those with the higher GPAs--one huge scary girl aside--tended to be the quieter ones. Gunners tended to be legal legends in their own minds.

I don't think I really spent much time studying aside from the early part of 1L. Reading an outline the night before the final worked pretty damn well and allowed for much more going out time.

Who the hell needs a career services office? I got an offer from a V50 firm without their help.

- CLS 2L Stud

Wrong 41,

This is an absolute outrage!

I now hear that food service is letting people go too! How is anyone supposed to get placed at a decent firm/court? That's not something that's gonna happen without "Taco Wendesdays," is it, you big dummy?

Elie, for pete's sake, leave CLS alone! Pick on another law school. Just because we're the best doesn't mean you have to run a story every day about us.

CLS 2L

Grading- professors have been lobbying for this for well over a decade. Sad that CLS only considers it viable when in the context of competing with peer schools.

As for Dean Wayne, she did excellent work on behalf of students. Her strengths were 1-on-1 (those slideshows were hell) and not many people utilized the resource. But, anyone who thinks it's all in the bag because you're a CLS student has another thing coming (not complaining but there are some peeps that struggled). Sad thing is some people were in the process of working with her/settling issues from EIP, etc. and are left hanging with the ill-timed transition.

best of luck to her.

I love how, in the name of women's rights, a woman has the right to have a baby whenever she wants to the detriment of people in her workplace that depend on her. Would you guys approve if Sarah Palin had a baby right before Iran launched a nuclear strike on America and took 4 months off?

Career services means jackshit. I guarantee you even if a chimpanzee were at the helm of CLS career svcs, students would still place better than at my T20. Crybabies.

48,

I'm generally opposed to Sarah Palin having babies at all. But I guess it's a bit late for that sentiment, huh?

-49

17: I was referring to the fact that URMs tend to have lower LSATs and GPAs than their white counterparts, and also tend to get lower grades in law school. Moving to a P/F system would hide the fact that the URMs are under-performing.

CLS = HLS Rejects

No that's stupid 50, people have a right to have children. You have no right to tell people whether they can or cannot have kids. Sarah Palin's children will probably end up looking better than you anyway. However, is can also become a problem if it affects people who depend on you.

Grading- professors have been lobbying for this for well over a decade. Sad that CLS only considers it viable when in the context of competing with peer schools.

As for Dean Wayne, she did excellent work on behalf of students. Her strengths were 1-on-1 (those slideshows were hell) and not many people utilized the resource. But, anyone who thinks it's all in the bag because you're a CLS student has another thing coming (not complaining but there are some peeps that struggled). Sad thing is some people were in the process of working with her/settling issues from EIP, etc. and are left hanging with the ill-timed transition.

best of luck to her.

Career services means jackshit. I guarantee you even if a chimpanzee were at the helm of CLS career svcs, students would still place better than at my T20. Crybabies.

word on the street is BLS is going to jump on the grade reform wagon if NYU and CLS does in an effort to improve its us news ranking

can we have more stories on UPenn State and UTexas Tech? 2 great schools with amazing athletic program as well as law schools

Columbia is broke, follow the money.

CLS = HLS Rejects

CLS = HLS Rejects

CLS = HLS Rejects

"Columbia needs to fire the woman who runs the clerkship office too. All she does is have babies so that she is on maternity leave right during clerkship season."

With charmers like this one, why does Columbia even *need* a career services department? Obviously these people are shoo-ins for law firm jobs.

HLS = Unemployed

HLS = Career Rejects

Once again, I beg to differ with the 100 percent employed at graduation statistic. Wayne presided over career services during three periods of economic downturn and their concomittant effects on the legal job market. When I was a 2l, I knew of at least three 3ls who graduated without jobs, and my 3l acquaintances were limited. I graduated in between the slowdown in the early 2000s and the present one, and I know of at least five J.D.s and at least two LLMs in my graduating class who did not have jobs practicing law upon graduation. One went to work for McKinsey, and a few were employed as contract attorneys (some still are). The only way to reach a figure in the high ninetieth percentile for the employed at graduation and six months from graduation statistics would be to count contract attorneys as employed by firms, a fiction explicitly disavowed by very those firms and one which is shameful for those who have studied, practiced, and are in service to law to have perpetuated. Yes, most CLS students do well for themselves, but not 100 percent of them even in boom times.

65 - Are you really saying that McKinsey shouldn't count? I'm not crying for people who get those jobs. I see your point on contract jobs...those are not full time.

Put 2 and 2 together: sudden "resignation", instantly deleted from the directory, no word for a week, replacement on her way who formerly worked at CLS, mixed record...This isn't a money-saving choice or a long-planned retirement...

As a Columbia student, I'm really outraged that one of my peers would make a misogynistic comment about our clerkship director. She does an excellent job and is a nice person. It is rather unreasonable to fault her for having a baby. (As far as I know, it was just one baby. This is not an annual thing.) And I think the school still managed to put on a fine clerkship program despite her being on maternity leave.

I'm also particularly disappointed that ATL would choose to approvingly publish a comment like that.

I can assure you that most CLS students do not share that commenter's view.

Hey 53, what's the difference between Sarah Palin's mouth and vagina?

...
...
...

Only some of the stuff that comes out of her vagina is retarded.

P.S. You go, 50!

I'm not #16, nor a woman, but count me among those offended by the "tipster" bitching about a woman having both a job and babies. You're a big boy, and you have the resources and (hopefully) the brains to get a clerkship without her holding your hand all the way through. I'm so glad I don't work with any of you prick CLSers.

COA Clerk

Grade reform is just a big fraud pushed by lazy professors who want to shed themselves of the last responsibility they bear. I'd like at least some token feedback or measure of performance for all the money and unpleasant hours I put into their "lectures."

I can't speak for everyone, but as a CLS 3L I have no complaints about the clerkship office. I've found that most of the people who do complain are the ones who didn't get their top choice...

Natasha Patel definitely wasn't "recalled from retirement" she's young(ish), and was pursuing another degree while working at Career Services.

Also, Dean Wayne was a very concerned and helpful counselor 1-on-1. Hard to believe she'd be "forced out" at such an awkward time with no transition plan.

There is a lot of information missing here, but I'm with #47 - I hope Dean Wayne is okay.

Agree with 68. References to maternity leave are inappropriate and should be deleted. That is really offensive.

I agree with 68 and 72... No complaints about the clerkship office. Most people I know were able to get good clerkships... the crude comment that Elie has posted and made his own is probably just sour grapes from someone whose poor social skills prevented him from getting a clerkship.

68 and 70.
Tipster here: I was smart enough, mature enough, and competent enough to get a fed. dist. clerkship on my own. Was it my top choice? No, but its pretty hard to define what exactly that means in the clerkship realm isnt it? Unless you are aiming at one of a couple of feeder judges (and I am not a want-to-be-academic, nor a prestige whore, so I was not) doesnt everybody sort of apply to a bunch of judges with general ideas of who and where you want to go?

But the point of my comment is that Columbia underperforms with clerkships, they do a terrible job placing out of the NY area, and one of the reasons is likely the clerkship office. Its not a one year thing. The idea of someone who's job it is to do place people in clerkships being on maternity leave during the most important part of the process is a little ridicuolous.

What they should do is hire some young hot shit former clerk who knows a lot of people, and pay him on a production basis. 50,000 base salary - 2,500 for State Supreme, 5,000 per Fed. Dist. 10,000 for COA, 15,000 for COA Feeder, and 25,000 for SCt. Then you would see somebody working hard on trying to improve placement.

Not 68 or 70 here.

76 - You are a douche bag. People like you are the reason I almost didn't come to Columbia. Luckily I've found that the few privileged jerkoffs we have are easy to avoid. Finally, I'm sorry you hate women so much. Sadly it's not just your looks, but also your personality that repulses them.

77-
Who hates women?
You know who you are, someone who takes all criticism as an ad hominem attack. Which is obviously why you respond with one (interestingly, since I doubt you know who I am).
Its too bad, because we actually are on the same team w/ respect to women's rights (assuming that you support them in reality and arent just jumping on the bandwagon at Columbia).
Oh well - at least you are easily recognizeable. Have fun with your liberal outrage. I'll be saving the world while you fuck around with your little games, you dipshit. Maybe when you mature a little bit and can respond to reasonabe critcism in a sensible manner you can work for me.

@76 - Your attempt at a defense of your character falls short.

I don't see how anything you've said in your most recent comment justifies or explains your misogynistic comment. Despite being on maternity leave, she kept office hours and was available via email. I haven't heard any serious problems caused by the maternity leave, so it seems that you're just offended by baby-making machines deigning to think they deserve to have professional careers.

You are clearly clueless, out of touch, and pulling stuff out of your arse. Columbia didn't recall someone from retirement. The clerkship director hasn't had multiple "babies." And Columbia does not "underperform with clerkships" or "do a terrible job placing out of the NY area." Again, you're clearly just making stuff up. Columbia is among the top five law schools for clerkship placement numbers. It does well everywhere it's students choose to go. The fact that Columbia is not even higher has everything to do with self-selection and very little to do with the quality of the clerkship office.

@78 -- You'll be "saving the world"? Wow, cocky and arrogant too!

And don't forget your comment, which is more or less an ad hominem attack: "All she does is have babies so that she is on maternity leave right during clerkship season. Brilliant job choice for her...."

79,80 -
Im not sure you understand what an ad hominem attack is...
I have nothing against her. I've actually had plenty of good conversations with her. I have also had some issues, which if I discussed would make my identity obvious.
And I don't fault her for having babies and having a career. My mother did it, my fiance is planning on it, and I would be fine putting my career on hold too, if needed to raise children.
The point is that the Columbia administration shouldn't hire somebody for that position who is going to be clearly unfocussed on the job in the important times of the job. I would'nt hire an accountant who takes off all march to go on his annual month long ski vacation.
What's wrong with my pay for performance suggestion? Is that somehow misogynistic?
And 79: Columbia does underperform:
Leiter - Clerks as % of Class
1. Yale University (26.5%)
2. Stanford University (15.2%)
3. University of Chicago (13.0%)
4. Harvard University (9.9%)
5. Northwestern University (6.9%)
6. Duke University (5.9%)
7. Columbia University (5.7%)
8. University of California, Los Angeles (5.4%)
8. University of Michigan, Ann Arbor (5.4%)
10. University of Pennsylvania (4.8%)

Guys at my high school used to contemplate the future implosion of Thelen all time, knowing it would be soon followed by the resignation of Ellen Wayne, all the time. It was no big deal.

76/81- Thanks for reminding me why I hated CLS-- I had to spend 3 years with douchebags like you. Giving birth is not the same as a "month long ski vacation", and doesn't always happen on schedule. The only way for the law school to avoid hiring people who might possibly need to take maternity leave at certain times of the year would be to not hire women of childbearing age at all. Which would be ILLEGAL.

And your pay for performance idea isn't misogynistic-- it's just stupid. How many well-connected ex-clerks do you know who would take that job instead of working at Cravath or wherever for a much higher guaranteed salary? That's right, none, because lawyers are risk averse.

@81 - Columbia does NOT underperform with respect to clerkships. First, the stats you post--showing that Columbia had the seventh highest proportion of graduating students clerking of all law schools in the country this year--do not by any means suggest that Columbia is underperforming. More relevant, however, are the statistics you conveniently ignored in your after-the-fact defense of your unsupportable claims. Columbia consistently outperforms where it counts, always placing in the top five of schools with respect to prestigious supreme court and federal circuit clerk courtships. It's true that Yale, Stanford, Harvard, and UChicago generally have more students do clerking. This is mostly a matter of self-selection. Those Columbia students who choose to clerk are very successful--but many of our students choose to pursue other opportunities in private practice or the public interest.

More importantly, your complaints about the clerkship director continue to make no sense. You say Columbia chose to hire someone "who is going to be clearly unfocussed [sic] on the job in the important times of the job." That doesn't make sense, since Columbia hired someone they expected to be fully focused on the job at all important times. I don't think they anticipated her not being around to baby you for a couple months. What you seem to be suggesting is that every woman has the potential to become "unfocused" (i.e., pregnant) and women therefore should never be hired because they might at some point in the future have a baby at an inopportune time.

Also, you've made no suggestion--and couldn't really make a credible suggestion--that her maternity leave adversely affected Columbia's clerkship program. You also seem to forget that, even if it did, her maternity leave is now over. Your only complaint--that she dared give birth--is no longer an issue. So there appears to be no reason for your suggestion to fire her or replace her except as some sort of punitive action in retaliation for her family planning choices, which don't fit YOUR preferences.

Of course, you also seem to ignore that state and federal law prevents Columbia from doing exactly what you propose. Of course, why would a superhero like you out to save the world know or care about puny things like "laws."

I'll also note that your last post implies that you think all women who choose to have children need to "put their career on hold." I hope you're not suggesting that all women who are incompetent of juggling motherhood and a profession at the same time. Why should someone who is perfectly capable of simultaneously changing diapers in the evening and helping ungrateful little shits land undeserved clerkships during the day have to choose to do just one?

I can't speak for your other detractors, but I have no problem with a pay for performance metric. I haven't heard anyone criticize that. Don't try to deflect the criticism of your sexism, insensitivity, and arrogance by writing it off as criticism of your pay for performance suggestion. I am also unaware of the "other issues" to which you allude. To the extent that you believe she is not performing or job adequately, though, you should say so--rather than making sexist, inaccurate, and irrelevant remarks that cast all Columbia students in a negative light.

76,

This is 77 again.

#1. I am anything but a liberal. In fact, I've never been called a liberal in my life. I just didn't realize that respect for women/female peers was a liberal/conservative political issue. My bad.

#2. You are the same type of person who decries part time schedules for women at law firms...And if you don't have a problem with part time schedules then maybe you should reevaluate your opinion re: the director of the clerkship program. As another poster pointed out, not all pregnancies proceed on a schedule that benefits work/your personal issues. This isn't a vacation...this is a momentous occasion in someone's life/family.

If you want to evaluate her ability to place people in clerkships fine, but you crossed the line when you started criticizing her for her pregnancy and personally I think you should apologize/retract your comments.

If you aren't willing to retract your comments then I think you should go on the record with your name and stand by them. You won't because you are a coward who likes to send "anonymous" tips to ATL to attack people.

#3. I wouldn't want to work for someone who trolls around anonymously calling people out by name, attacking their personal decisions and decrying female rights in the work place.

You may have legitimate reasons to have a problem with the clerkship program at CLS, but this is the forum in which you choose to express them? Anonymously attacking a woman for being pregnant/wanting a family? Who is the immature one here?

Finally, your knee jerk reaction painting me as a "liberal" is wrong as is your conclusion that I am someone who takes criticism as an ad hominem attack. In fact, you didn't criticize me at all. I just think you're an asshole. You aren't worth any more of my time, so you can have the last word. Good luck with your career. I hope you learn to become more tolerant of others and their lives.

I would add my two cents, but I think commenters like 84 and 85 have hit the nail on the head. I'm glad that people like the anonymous anti-pregnancy tipster remain an unwelcome minority at CLS.

Sorry for asking the obvious, but does anyone at Columbia actually know what happened?

@87 --- No one who is spilling the beans. I, for one, appreciate that some people are able to exercise some discretion and not go squealing to ATL at the first opportunity.

My guess is that the school told her they wanted her to change something, she didn't want to, and she left. It's also possible that she had personal reasons that required her to leave quickly. (This would explain the out-of-office autoreply.)

You know, that is your fault, Elie/ATL, for even posting that crap about the clerkship advisor and the babies. It's BS, but the point is, it's sexist and offensive. And unlike a comment, this one comes out on you.

89 - True dat.

59/60/61 -- Just because you say it three times doesn't make it true. CLS = HLS rejects only as much as HLS = YLS rejects.

Isn't the problem with CLS? If you had an accountant who was on maternity leave in March/April, would you tell the IRS "Sorry no taxes this year, but she'll respond to emails?" - No - You'd have someone come in to help out and cover her position in her absence. That is poor planning on the part of CLS. That being said, the female accountants I know had babies in July. (I'm a woman and a feminist - it's called family planning, people...)

92 raises an excellent point. However, I don't know that clerkship coordination every requires someone to be here full-time during the summer months. I think that on-campus office hours, and regular email/telephone availability is probably more than sufficient. I honestly hope that my peers at CLS are able to apply for clerkships without *constant* handholding. "This is where type your name. J-O-H-N ..."

Am I missing something here??? Is it really so hard being dean of career services at CLS or any top 10 law school???

If these students are really feeling nervous and anxious it just further proves that book smarts and common sense just don't go hand in hand.

@94 -- I don't think anyone has suggested it is hard being dean of career services at CLS, nor have more than one or two people expressed any nervousness or anxiety.

92--I'm a woman, and a feminist, and birth control isn't 100% effective. Lay off of this woman and go back to bowing down to the patriarchy.

I don't think anyone at CLS wants H/P/F grading. They should eliminate the mandatory B- for the bottom 10% in 1L year, but that's it. The current system is mostly fine.

Career Services should give us information on law firm grade cutoffs and historical averages, like NYU does. Also, I think the bidding process is stupid. Why not let the firms decide who they want to interview? What's the point of making K&E sit down to an interview with me if I have a 3.2? It's a big waste of time.

96 -
Really? Suggesting birth control is "bowing down to the patriarchy." That's a new one. I'd be just as annoyed if a man took paternity leave at an important work time, or a colleague picked a busy month to have her "deviated septum fixed." There is (essentially) one way to have a baby. If you know that nine months in the future is a busy time, use a condom.

97 is correct. Any anger directed at career services is typically a result of unmet expectations. I imagine most people trashing career services assued that the CLS brand would guarantee them a V5 job. Career services job, in part, is expectations managment. In tjat task, they failed miserably, but the reality is that 99% of people end up with A job, just not THE job that they wanted, so no one complains that loudly.

98: Yes, telling someone when and how to have a child is "bowing down to the patriarchy." Sure it's inconvenient for someone to be on maternity leave, but it's one thing to recognize that inconvenience and advocate accommodating students (which apparently was done), and another to suggest that person is unfit for the job because of pregnancy. If my accountant had a baby, I would expect her firm to pick up the slack or refer me to someone competent--if they fired her instead, I'd fire them.

I personally did not apply for a clerkship, so I don't know how good or bad our director is, but if she is good, then if I were her, I'd be pissed off at the public disrespect and maybe want to go somewhere else. That sucks for CLS. Clearly Tipster has some issues to address and hopefully will approach them with humility--there comes a time in everyone's life when they have to get over themselves. Tipster, if you want that clerkship, you can take the first step now by recognizing when you are wrong and making amends.

81...that stat doesn't prove that CLS underperforms. It's quite possible (even probable) that the number is that low because comparatively few cls students WANT clerkships since comparatively more end up at firms.

Isn't this alternative explanation crap the kind of stuff they tested on the lsat?