Columbia Cashiers Career Services Dean?
Universities are not immune to the economic downturn. Endowments are taking hits; hiring freezes are likely.
And maybe layoffs, too. From a tipster:
CLS Dean of Career Services Ellen Wayne has just been unceremoniously dumped from her post after nearly 20 lackluster years on the job (she was a constant source of complaints by students). She’s already been removed from staff listings and from the school’s internal telephone and email directory.
We tried emailing Dean Wayne at her Columbia address and received an automated reply: “I am out of the office.” Indeed.
[T]hey’ve not managed to erase all traces yet…. Her picture remains up on the front page of their employer section. No official email from the school to its students yet.
We reached out to the school for comment. Elizabeth Schmalz, executive director for Communications and Public Affairs at CLS, responded via email: “It is university policy not to discuss employment matters in public. Thanks for writing.”
So it’s not clear yet what happened to Dean Wayne. Is she being blamed for weak on-campus interviewing this year? Was she somebody’s target in Assassins?
Our original tipster wasn’t a fan of Dean Wayne. But different CLS sources had more positive views.
Check them out, after the jump.
From a CLS source who was a fan of Dean Wayne:
I actually thought she was doing a good job, at least in terms of placing grads at firms. She always had helpful advice and I generally liked her staff. It isn’t exactly hard to get Columbia grads hired by law firms. EIP [Early Interview Program] this year was not as strong, but I attributed that to the market, not to her.I think our clerkship process is rather weak, but I am not sure to what extent, if any, she is responsible for clerkships as we have a separate clerkship office. Overall I thought she was nice, approachable and very knowledgeable. I am sad to see her go and especially in such an unceremonious way. Something must have happened to trigger this.
Update (12:45 PM): From a Columbia Law School alum:
I am rather shocked. I always felt that Career Services was the only functional and student-friendly part of the administration. Other offices are either dysfunctional (student services), uninvolved (office of the Dean), or downright mean (registrar).I served [in the military before law school] and have seen my fair share of complex operations with many moving parts executed flawlessly. OCI is quite an operation with hundreds of canidates and interviewers conducting thousands of interviews over a week. I thought Dean Wayne and her staff ran the event flawlessly and happily made themselves available for advice and guidance. If the sticking point is clerkship placement, then someone else should have been let go as the clerkship program is run out of Student Services.
If you have info to share, feel free to email us. Thanks.
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Firsty.
Columbia has a great career services office. This must be something else.
FIRST !
FIRST to say........WHO CARES
Hadn't yet read the author the post when I read this line:
"We tried emailing Dean Wayne at her Columbia address and received an automated reply: "I am out of the office." Indeed."
I thought, "Wow, Elie is improving." But then I looked to see the author..... *sighs.*
First to second #4...NOBODY cares what those poor little whiners have to go through at their cold-as-ice school. I know I sound bitter but I really just have not had enough sleep to bring the funny.
Also, am looking at statements for my student loans and wishing I'd thought ahead and never attended law school in the first place.
6 - Be more specific. You shouldn't have attended GULC in the first place.
7th heaven!
Sigh - I read this post thinking to myself "Wow, this post's not horrible...the reference to the Assassins post was almost clever...maybe I should give Elie another shot." Then I realized it was a Lat post.
Use the recession as an excuse to unceremoniously dump Elie, Lat. ATL depends on it.
7: I didn't. I wouldn't.
But right now I'm still a week and a half from bar results (and the concomitant salary bump) and I still haven't figured out consolidation (didn't have any loans after college so I haven't dealt with this before) don't yet have health care, am driving a really great but 6 year old car, desperately want to buy a place so I can stop pouring money down the black hole of renting.
Also, got 4 hours of sleep, and right now am researching a subject which requires me to read cases from 1904. Thus, I'm tired, sore, worried and whiny. That's why I'm not so much with the funny, although I'm sure some of you established attorneys who were here 10 years ago and are SO GLAD to be done are probably laughing your asses off at poor little barely-no-longer-a-law-student me. That's ok, I'm kinda laughing at myself too after that rant.
Steve Buchman's better
"We tried emailing Dean Wayne at her Columbia address and received an automated reply: 'I am out of the office.' Indeed."
I was going to compliment Elie, but noticed that Lat wrote this.
I hate that fat, sloppy glob of incompetence.
This post doesn't make sense.
How does 20 years of students not liking her = CLS is trying to cut costs?
I have a funny feeling they will replace her, which will mean no financial savings.
Elie: OMG LAT SOMEONE JUST E-MAILED ME THAT COLUMBIA CAREER SERVICES DEAN IS FIRED!!!!
Lat: Do we know why?
Elie: No.
Lat: Was there some kind of scandal?
Elie: No.
Lat: Was she loved or hated by CLS students?
Elie: I dunno. Some people liked her. Some didn't.
Lat: OMG LET'S TOTALLY POST THIS STORY!!!! I'LL PUT IT IN MY NAME SO PEOPLE WILL READ IT!!!!!
Elie: [eats donut]
THE END
Heh, had I read the comments I would have seen that 5 already had the exact same thought.
-12
You're "a week and a half from bar results (and the concomitant salary bump)"?? What TTT do you work at?!
The more people make fun of Elie, the more he rushes to the comfort of another McRib sandwich. People please, have mercy on the McRib sandwiches.
As a CLS transfer, I was definitely underwhelmed (and I did well enough in EIP not to be bitter). Her preparation for us for EIP was a Power Point--one slide for where the hotel was, one slide for where the changing rooms were, and so on.
In fairness, this was before the financial "unpleasantness" hit, so she might have assumed that everything would be smooth sailing for us. However, she didn't really do anything after that point either, except for an "accept your offers morons" email two weeks ago.
I get the sense that for the last 20 years, being head of CLS's career office was a matter of pointing 2Ls in the direction of EIP and then dicking around for 11 months. She might have been caught unawares by the new paradigm.
14: Comment of the day. You should take over for his rotundancy -el gordo!
"I have a funny feeling they will replace her, which will mean no financial savings."
Were you born stupid, or did you have to work hard for it?
Here's a hint: the cost of an employee who is just starting work just might be lower than that of a two decade veteran . . . even if they're doing the same job.
The more people make fun of Elie, the more he rushes to the comfort of another McRib sandwich. People please, have mercy on the McRib sandwiches.
@5 - LOL! That's also the line that made me look up the author's name.
@5 - LOL! That's also the line that made me look up the author's name.
I think Elie is a secret admirer of the Hamburglar.
Maybe UVA could take a hint and fire that loser, Dean Hopson.
This never would have happened if she were hot. Ladies...let this be a lesson.
Get a grip and show some humanity, brainpower and integrity folks. The owners or driving force behind this blog should be embarrassed by the depths to which they have fallen. They traffic in gibberish, rumors, irrelevancies, and other drek - there has not been real useful news here for months. Do the dignified thing and just go away or shut down before you calcify and ossify.
Do I even need to consult a career services dean? Don't the GULC students make my candidacy appealing enough so that I don't need to play trivial games with resume reorganization?
-GW 1L
But he looks more like Grimace.
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=9CI&resnum=0&q=grimace&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&resnum=1&ct=title
Hey @ 21, why don't you pour yourself a hot cup of shut the fuck up!
Career office of CLS is very helpful, however, that is more due to other career office employees.
@30: Elie, you're just embarassing yourself now. (As usual)
30, do you have something against McRibs? Or are you as stupid as 13?
xoxo,
20
Huh, I actually felt Career Services did an excellent job this year. Dean Wayne wasn't the most personal of the career services staff (see e.g. Steve Buchman), but she certainly was helpful. I'd love to get the full story.
personable, not personal
-- 34
16: A medium sized firm in California. But all my friends who are also still waiting for their bar results are also awaiting their salary bump so I'm sure why you're so shocked.
Although I love California, this making us wait till Nov 21 thing is for the suck.
36, I'm shocked because real firms pay full salary from day one. Even before your bar passage occurs.
This would never happen at Waco Christian University of Texas School of Law. Thank god I live in Dallas.
Hey @ 32 and @ 33, you two stupid morons probably stuff yourself's with McD's and jerk off to this web site.
I don't hate Elie because he has a complete inability to stop eating McRib sandwichs with glazed donuts replacing the bun halves. I hate him because he is a terrible writer and is not very funny, except to the extent that his obesity makes me laugh.
Can we get rid of Arizona career services office now too? They've been a constant source of compalints for years too.
Who does their job website [AZ, CA, Rocky Mountain, Other]...ignoring DC, NY, Chicago...all the real legal markets.
Fire AZ CSO now!
@39 I don't even know what a McRib is, something from McDonalds, I presume but I wouldn't eat there for anything. I like my coronary arteries just the way they are, thanks.
#32
MEMO
From - Lat
To - All winners of ATL Idol.
Due to economic concerns all ATL Idol winners are given the option of leaving the job with severence of 3 boxes of frozen waffles, pancake batter and a bottle of syrup. Should not enough ATL Idol winners decline to accept our generous offers, we at ATL may be forced to lay off ATL Idol winners to trim costs and save the ATL franchise. Thank you for your year(s)/months of service.
@7
"...desperately want to buy a place so I can stop pouring money down the black hole of renting."
Consider - The annual tax assessment on a condo, plus monthly condo fees that in some cases exceed $800 month, may be greater than your rent at an apartment. This is also money down the drain. Also consider that a newly bought condo is likely to have sluggish growth in value for at least a generation. That's quite a lost opportunity cost for the use of $400k that could have been sunk into an undervalued equities market (or even an interest-bearing bond fund at this point).
37: Huh. Well, this is a "real" firm but it's not large and definitely not a national name. Still, I'm doing ok for myself though will be better soon. I'm the only one from my year even here, which is why I hesitate to say the name, it would be very obvious who I am. Last years class was large though, approx. 10 attorneys. Stupid economy.
I went through EIP this year and it was a solidly functioning, well-oiled machine. I was impressed.
Dean Wayne had people shadowing her as she visited hospitality suites throughout EIP - maybe a hand-off was planned?
Wow, Elie, your Halloween costume was amazing. Red is a good color on you.
Judging by how I was jarvis probed by biglaw this season, this seems about right.
- CLS 2L
WHAT ABOUT TODAY'S WHITE & CASE LAYOFFS?!
44: That's a good point. Taxes are a bitch. With the economy so low right now though, I can get a nice place close to work for about $300,000, and I haven't seen any hoa dues in Sacramento over $400.
Granted, I won't be living in some McMansion, but I don't really care about the "status" of living quarters.
I am saving a lot of money right now though by living with 3 other people in a house.
The criticism of Ellen Wayne is way off. The "tipster" appears to be embittered, and I can guess why. I think CLS's career services office has been fine. Same with the clerkship office. The dean and student services are the weak aspects of the administration, which I think everyone would agree upon.
And in response to a criticism of the registrar, as someone who has dealt with the office quite a bit, I have to defend them as the best in the administration. At least they respond to emails. I don't think they're "mean."
The criticism of Ellen Wayne is way off. The "tipster" appears to be embittered, and I can guess why. I think CLS's career services office has been fine. Same with the clerkship office. The dean and student services are the weak aspects of the administration, which I think everyone would agree upon.
And in response to a criticism of the registrar, as someone who has dealt with the office quite a bit, I have to defend them as the best in the administration. At least they respond to emails. I don't think they're "mean."
I think career services is an easy place to bitch when you don't get your first choice. People expect CS to just hand you a job without you having to work for it by even submitting a resume.
I remember kids at my school being very angry that they didn't get an interview with all the OCI firms...and that they didn't all (227 person class) get jobs through OCI. Sorry, even at a top school someone is at the bottom of the class.
Little Lattie,
Why don't you post the name of the "tipster" who sent unverified and unwarranted criticism of Dean Wayne? One student who probably had crappy grades and no personality criticizes the career services office because he couldn't get a job. Since 95% of his classmates got jobs, I think the student, not Dean Wayne, is the one with the problem.
This post is shameless bullying for no reason.
- a Columbia grad
Doing career services for CLS must be one of the easiest jobs you can get. Other than working in career services for HYS.
53 - I was not at the bottom of my class nor did I get a single interview through OCI's (not CLS). The only advice CSO ever gave was "let's take a look at your resume"...my CSO was worthless and I won't donate to my school until they are gone.
I think you write off ineptitude too quickly.
As a CLS student who got a V5 firm, she's not bad or good but moot. She just has to take $ from the firms who pay for the opportunity to interview CLS students and schedule EIP. Until reading this I didn't know who she was.
55 is dead on. her job is half done by mere fact that she's working with CLS students. kinda like a headhunter who only accepts T25/top10% and then brags about success in placing candidates. a monkey can do that; real success is placing less than "stellar" candidates.
Why so much hate for CLS these past couple of days? Elie, perhaps you are annoyed CLS students got offers before the economy went south, while Harvard was shit out of luck?
I don't have anything to say about Dean Wayne in particular because I never met with her, but what I can tell you is that everyone in that office other than Buchman is valueless. It didn't matter for me or most of my classmates, but it really, really does for people who need a little help polishing themselves as candidates, or for LLMs who need someone to hustle on their behalf to get a job. If the answer is just "well, they should know how to interview" or "their grades suck" or "LLMs don't deserve jobs" then why have career counselors at all.?
First to give a general Fuck You to all career services deans and staffers out there. FUCK YOU for being useless.
GULCers don't have these kind of issues.
EIP was well organized. Does anyone know what Career Services did for people without offers?
(Steve Buchman is great.)
It's funny how some people always try to make someone else responsible for their own failures.
Amen to 61. A - F'n- Men.
CSO and CSO Deans - get your f'n shit together.
64- She actually WAS RESPONSIBLE to help place students. That is what Columbia Law School paid her to do.
There's clearly something else going on. She was not great but also not terrible, and you don't get fired for that, least of all from CLS. Likewise, plenty of other fat they could cut if it was just budget related. So, what's up?
51 -
Who ever thinks the clerkship office is fine is a fucking retard. The clerkship office is a disaster, thats why CLS does so terribly with Clerkships. They cant place a clerk outside of the NY area to save their lives.... so they dont even try.
And yeah, I got my clerkship, so dont be telling me im bitter. I know people who got SC Clerkships and feel the EXACT same way.
I also got a V5 offer, and I think career services blows.
Basically every aspect of the administration blows.
51 - you are probably one of those kiss ass bitches who tries to get everyone to like you, and thus thinks that when you succeed this fucking mindless lazy bureaucrats are somehow good, useful people. THEY ARE NOT.
Their job is to fucking work for us. We pay their salaries and we are (with rare exceptions) much much brighter and more accomplished than they are, so they need to do their job or get the fuck out
Hopefully thats what happened with whatever the deans name was
Career office at my school was generally unhelpful to 80% of students so I take enormous, very un-Christian pleasure in saying "uh, no, sorry" every time the school contacts me for donations.
Career office at my school was generally unhelpful to 80% of students so I take enormous, very un-Christian pleasure in saying "uh, no, sorry" every time the school contacts me for donations.
64: Exactly. My favorite example of this was a girl who was essentially sobbing in the CSO's office "why didn't I get the job" which I understood because she was clearly a little nutty, but also, as the CSO explained to her, she didn't turn in her resume until AFTER they had already made offers to thier summer class.
Ok fine, time gets away from you, I get that. What was priceless was her response.
"So? I have a g-good resume!"
68-
You are why everyone hates Columbia Law School.
-51
64: Exactly. My favorite example of this was a girl who was essentially sobbing in the CSO's office "why didn't I get the job" which I understood because she was clearly a little nutty, but also, as the CSO explained to her, she didn't turn in her resume until AFTER they had already made offers to thier summer class.
Ok fine, time gets away from you, I get that. What was priceless was her response.
"So? I have a g-good resume!"
Good riddance. Ellen Wayne was utterly useless when I graduated from CLS a few years ago, and had a nasty attitude to boot. She threatened to cut me off from career services entirely after I walked out of an interview (with a public defender's office) where the interviewer was verbally abusive towards me. Ellen Wayne tried to force me to write a letter of apology to the interviewer, and told me I would be banned from career services if I didn't. Since I already had an offer from a firm, I ignored her.
The rest of the people in career services were no more helpful-- their only advice to people looking for jobs in cities other than NYC was "Why don't you apply to this list of big firms in NYC?". They could fire the entire office, and students at CLS would still be hired by big NYC firms.
Dean Schizer has been getting rid of upper-level employees since he became dean. The alumni/development and communications offices both lost long-time staffers when he came in... really, it's a surprise Dean Wayne lasted this long.
-Former CLS employee
not sure why the clerkship office is to blame for CLS people not clerking outside of NYC; that's because CLS people mostly want to stay in NYC. I've found the clerkship office to be incredibly helpful at every step of the process. The critiques of the Dean, Student Services and the Registrar are right on the money. CLS is just a poorly run place--it's too bad. As for career services, it seemed the best run of all the administrative offices this is almost certainly either a restructuring where public interest and career services will be merged together or there's some kind of scandal.
They should fire Natasha Patel too. She's a worthless bitch.
Of course CSO's are there to work for you, the problem is, they can't MAKE a V10 school hire someone from the bottom 25% of the class.
Now, if you're top 10% of the class, you don't need their help anyway, so really, in some respects CSO's have designed uselessness.
CLS career services provides a lot less information than NYU does for EIP about firm grade cut-offs and the like -- a lot of people bid on firms that they wouldn't have if they had more data. Adaptation to the horrendous economy wasn't very good, either. The only advice was to 'try to add more firms' once OCI started, instead of moving down the totem pole a bit with initial bids. It was hard to get good advice for non-NYC focused people.
There are definitely some 2Ls who don't have offers. I don't know how many, but I'd definitely draw some adverse inferences from the firing. She was a nice lady, I don't know how much of this was her fault, but clearly more could have been done, and the buck has to stop somewhere.
Also, I LOL'd at #18/ the transfer bitching. Really, guy? She didn't impress you with her powerpoint? There's been a paradigm shift, you say? So glad to have you.
What do CSOs at top schools get paid to do anyway? The top students get whatever job they want regardless and the CSO staff doesn't have any connections to help the bottom students.
Not sure what people's problems with Dean Wayne are; I had a number of very helpful interactions with her. Here's hoping that she lands on her feet.
74: I'm curious. What did the interviewer do to make you walk out? And did Dean Wayne know the whole story, or only the interviewer's side of the story?
i didn't know her. i do know that Buchman is great; CLS needs to hire more people with actual experience and knowledge of firms like Buchman.
when i was there a few years ago, career services was not much help. EIP did go smoothly, but that's the only positive thing i can say about the office.
Natasha Patel has been gone since sometime last year, when she mysteriously disappeared with no comment. Which was actually too bad, because (though not very helpful if you were looking in small markets) she was at least friendly.
With a face and body like that, she won't stay out of work for long.
With a face and body like that, she won't stay out of work for long.
This is just mean. I liked her, and I liked Natasha, too. Best of luck to both of them.
68 - Best of luck in the real world. You are clearly not as bright as you think you are.
89,
I just took a free online IQ test and got a 145. Clearly, I am more bright than I thought I was.
-68
What a Shmalz-ie post! Lol :) Smile people :)
ATL > Juicy Campus
-- CLS 2L
Dean Wayne was very nice and helpful to me. If you never had any interaction with her, you have no business passing judgment on her. Best of luck.
CLS 2L
90 - not so bright if you don't know basic comparatives.
CLS was horribly run when I was there, down to failing to schedule the classrooms without unintended double-bookings throughout the first few weeks of class. Guest professors would just boggle at the administration's ineptitude. Larry Kramer was on loan to us, and he would start ever Civ Pro class with a tirade about what a joke the administration was.
CLS '04
I am a CLS alum who had first-hand experience with the career services office beyond EIP, and I agree with the bulk of the criticisms of the office and its personnel.
Ellen Wayne's EIP presentation did consist of little more than two slides, instructions what women were hosiery, and the admonition not to worry. The career services office also put together a panel discussion during EIP which imparted such gems as "never accept a beverage on a call-back." Wayne was very hands-off during the EIP off-season and would take long lunches at Symposium instead of making herself available in the career service office. From what I understand, NYU career services used to have a presentation with charts and graphs correlating GPAs with target firms as well as a real mock interview program (most who did CLS's said it was a joke).
Steve Buchman may be a nice person, but his advice consists of little more than telling students to look up CLS alum on Martindale and targeting their cover letters to them--nothing people smart enough to get into CLS couldn't have figured out on their own. There used to be another career counselor named Karen something who was also perfectly nice but who, despite being touted as the person in office most in-the-know, did little more than suggest mass mailings to the same old big law firms or recommending that people with an aversion to finance and related areas apply to the Comptroller of the Currency.
Finally, CLS is not above the phenomenon engaged in by lower tiered schools--gaming the employed at graduation statistics. They seem to be counting the more than a handful (and greater than 2% as stated in the brochure statistics) of CLS J.D. and LLM graduates who are employed as contract attorneys six months after graduation as employed at firms. All of this is a shame in light of the fact that CLS is one of the most expensive private law schools in the country. It's one thing to be short changed by many classes (see, e.g., adjunct professors who fall asleep while teaching) and quite another not be able to rely on a career services office more capable placing people indiverse areas of the profession for which this school is in the business of training its students/customers rather than one that exists as little more than a pimp enabling its eager prestige whores to sell themselves for five years to life to the highest bidder.
74 here again. 82, to answer your question, the interview consisted of the woman from the public defender's office berating me for being a greedy, materialistic sellout because I had worked at a big firm the previous summer. She repeatedly accused me of lying about wanting to do public interest work and told me I was wasting her time. So after being yelled at for 10 minutes, I walked out, and I wasn't about to apologize for it.
96, it was Karen Monroe, right? If you asked her for help finding a job in Chicago or DC or San Francisco, her answer was always "Why don't you do a mass mailing to these big NYC firms?" And you are spot on about CLS gaming the employment numbers. There was at least one person in my class who didn't have a job at graduation, so the law school hired him as a "fellow", paid him a paltry salary, and counted him as employed.
94,
What's a basic comparative?
-68
96,
You description is on point. Career Services is almost worthless... not what you expect for an elite law school at all.
100!
CLS'ers, are there still 2Ls without jobs at this point?
NYU under Dorzbeck is no better. In general, career services at top school is staffed by failed lawyers and people with crappy personalities who like having law firms kiss their butts while doing little to protect students. Career services cares about their reputation then student's employment.
101, I'm a CLS Transfer and everyone I know (both transfers and non-transfers) have jobs.
101, I hear that there are, but I don't know any personally and they're not generally super forthcoming about it.
I'm a CLS 3L and I'd definitely confirm that the career services department is completely reviled. I don't think anyone whines about it since its pretty easy to get a job, but they are awful and don't care. Dean Wayne, though, was pretty good herself. As a supervisor, though, the department is terrible.
Everyone I know has a job also. The only rumors I've heard about jobless CLS 2L's have been on this website.
- Another CLS 2L
I am a CLS 2L - and I know three people so far who don't have job offers. No rumors, but actual people who are still trying to find jobs.
I personally know of a few 2Ls without offers.
- a CLS 2L
I'm a CLS 2L, and I know two 2Ls who do not have jobs and have no current hopes for employment. They didn't have really bad grades either.
Dean Wayne gave awful advice. I asked her about my choice of firms last summer, explaining how I picked my long list for EIP. My first priority was 1) actually being employed, and 2) working at a place that, at least for NYC biglaw, had relatively non-awful hours/lifestyle and where I might want to make my whole career at. I have average grades and am not a URM and nothing else makes me stand out. She told me that I didn't have to worry about finding work with my grades, because except for Wachtell and maybe Cravath I can get work at any firm I wanted because I go to CLS. She also told me that choosing for lifestyle was wrong, because all firms have the same hours, so I should really just try to choose for training or experience or whatever because I'd probably be leaving in a couple of years anyway.
I ignored her advice, thankfully, as it was completely wrong. If I hadn't been afraid of unemployment and/or if I had believed the hours were the same everywhere, I would have wasted precious bids on V20 firms where I had no chance, without bidding on V50-100 firms that actually fit me well. I got offers at places that I liked, because I ignored her advice.
I guess advice from Career Services doesn't really matter if you're the kind of person who wants to and can get a job at a V5 firm. For the rest of us, it does matter. I'm glad she's gone.
It was a shitty year for EIP. She must have given advice based on previous years, when average grades could get you anything but Wachtell. A lot of people might have used their EIP slots differently if they had known.
There's no such thing as 'no chance' though. I know two people who got a V5 offer who both say their grades were bad. So i guess it doesn't hurt to try. (Both had other things going for them, though.)
96 is spot on.
There are quite a few 2Ls and 3Ls without jobs. It's just that no one talks about it.
Student Services just sent out an email regarding Wayne's departure, but all they said was that they have no idea what's going on. Impressive.
-a CLS 3L
111 - that was the student senate, not student services.
@109 -- Any other year her advice would have been right on. And when she gave the advice---sometime before the middle of the summer and before the markets went totally crazy---it was probably pretty appropriate.
That said, I think her "don't buy the lifestyle marketing" advice is probably still right on. You can actually track worked/billable hours. Most lifestyle firms DO work just as many hours, often with less interesting work.
@111/112 -- And the email actually says that they DO know what is going on, have been in meetings with the administration all day, and expect more info to be released to the student body later.
114 - all the more annoying. If they know who decided to fire dean Wayne and why, they should release the information.
@113 -- So give us some numbers. Show that prior years were like this. How far back do we have records? The 2000-01 recession? Late 03? Hasn't Dean Wayne been there at least that long? I don't think you need to be warren buffett or insanely dilligent to do some homework. There was some reason to warn, I think, and it's probably prudent policy to let students know what happens in down years.
This is especially important if we're going to be reconsidering the very grading policy that produces this result. How on earth are we supposed to make that determination without some grasp of its consequences for employment and clerkships -- which are basically the only thing that grades matter for.
/agree w/ 115. I mean, no need to drag her through the mud, but let us know where we stand.
By the way, I'd be willing to wager Columbia isn't alone among elite schools in this regard.
o shit
i totally had a beverage
that's why i didn't get the offer!
People supportive of Career Services probably had shit grades and were lucky to get jobs, and thereby impressed by the crap "services" doled out by the office. With the exception of Steve Buchman, the office is entirely incompetent, relying mainly upon the name of CLS to get students jobs.
Rather than funnel as many students into firm jobs, it would be nice if they helped the 1Ls/2Ls gain an understanding of what different practices entail. They should also give insightful advice on how to maximize a given student's credentials.
The CLS name gets me a job. I look to Career Services to help me get the RIGHT and BEST job.
As an alum at a V5, I got there, but largely on my own.
This is NOT the first time an Asst. Dean for Career Services of a Top 20 school has been sacrificed by the dean during tough times to mollify those demanding "action." The activists are usually high maintenance undistinguished students who did not pay attention to the advice they were given and then storm the barricades of the Dean's office to demand that something be done about the market. Whether it's Columbia's former CS dean or someone else - there is nothing they can do to turn the market - especially in a year when the collapse occurred just as OCI was beginning. It's also a year when many of the current 2L's were deep in denial about the impact of the recession on their options this Fall. I'm not from Columbia and don't know Dean Wayne - but she's the one in the equation who doesnot have tenure and who is easily sacrificed so that others can be told that "action" has been taken.
ITA w/ 120. Someone has to pay for the crappy results of EIP this year. Scapegoat, anyone?
120 - I don't know whether there were any activists, though. This comment section shows that there are a few students who are still without a job. (I don't know any myself, but I have no trouble believing that they exist.) But I have not heard any complaints against Career Services -- people generally assume that it's the economy that ruined EIP for some people, not some action by Career Services.
Having said that, Harvard apparently sent out letters to firms trying to 'sell' their students. I don't know whether CLS has tried to do the same thing. Perhaps they weren't active enough in placing the students who came out of EIP without a job.
why a scapegoat? no sweat for career office during boom times, especially if for CLS. but damn well be able to put in extra effort and prove worth during down times.
Two posts about CLS in two days! What did we do to deserve such notoriety?
Two posts about CLS in two days! What did we do to deserve such notoriety?
Two posts about CLS in two days! What did we do to deserve such notoriety?
Two posts about CLS in two days! What did we do to deserve such notoriety?
Two posts about CLS in two days! What did we do to deserve such notoriety?
The complaints about the CLS career services office don't sound any different than the complaints I had about my CSO - and I went to a lower ranked school where we actually needed help. Stop whining CLS students; you go to a top 10 school and don't really need the help. You'll all be fine. It's everyone else that
doesn't go to a T10 school that needs a real career services office.
"Stop whining CLS students; you go to a top 10 school and don't really need the help. You'll all be fine."
True, but also unfair.
1. There are still people left without a job.
2. Those people also paid CLS's exorbitant tuition, and they deserve assistance from an effective CSO.
3. Even the people who would get a job without CSO could benefit from a functioning CSO if it gets them the job they want rather than 'a job'.
130, I agree with what you've said, but you ignore the fact that just about no school has an effective CSO. I go to a T20, and I hear the same criticisms leveled our CSO. I talk to my friends at schools ranging from T5 to TTT and hear the same things. Does any law school have a CSO that meets students' standards?
My tuition was also "exorbitant" (there are other law schools in major cities you know, with the same or similar costs to CLS) and I did not have the benefit of having a top 5 law school on my resume. For the cost of our tuition we too should have seen an effective CSO. There are A LOT more people at my former law school without high paying jobs than at CLS. They paid the same price as you whiners and they need A LOT more help.
132 - Yes, your school deserves an effective CSO too. These things aren't limited assets -- if CLS has a good CSO, that doesn't mean there's no good CSOness left for other schools.
You have every right to whine if your school's CSO is crap, but so do we.
i liked dean wayne and the career services office. they did run EIP much more professionally than the crappy student services office or other jokers running the administration.
CLS '06.
It is my impression that lots of 3Ls with offers from their summer firm were pretty much forced to take the offer because they couldn't get any other offers.
CLS 3L
I am a 2L at CLS and know of two people that do not have any offers.
Wow, two whole people. 80% of my T30 law school class did not have biglaw offers. Those two CLSers must have really crappy grades or be antisocial.
109 here.
It's probably not only two people. We have a big class and I don't know most of it. From the few people I have talked to, they say that they've also heard of people without jobs, and I doubt that we're all thinking of the same people.
Dean Wayne should have told us to be cautious with our choices. A large part of the reason I asked her about my firm list was that I was nervous about the economy- it seemed clear enough to me in the summer that things would be down. Dean Wayne has been through downturns before. If I was smart enough to know that I should bid on many less selective firms, shouldn't Dean Wayne have known that too? She told me to bid on almost any firm without worry, because the CLS name would carry us through the bad economy. And one of my friends without a job bid mostly on top-tier firms with few in the V50-100.
It's interesting to find out that NYU students are told what the historical GPA cutoffs of different firms are- why don't CLS students get this information?
As for hours- if it makes you feel better believing that all big NYC firms have essentially equivalent hours, go ahead. I've done enough research on this to know that it just isn't true.
109 here.
It's probably not only two people. We have a big class and I don't know most of it. From the few people I have talked to, they say that they've also heard of people without jobs, and I doubt that we're all thinking of the same people.
Dean Wayne should have told us to be cautious with our choices. A large part of the reason I asked her about my firm list was that I was nervous about the economy- it seemed clear enough to me in the summer that things would be down. Dean Wayne has been through downturns before. If I was smart enough to know that I should bid on many less selective firms, shouldn't Dean Wayne have known that too? She told me to bid on almost any firm without worry, because the CLS name would carry us through the bad economy. And one of my friends without a job bid mostly on top-tier firms with few in the V50-100.
It's interesting to find out that NYU students are told what the historical GPA cutoffs of different firms are- why don't CLS students get this information?
As for hours- if it makes you feel better believing that all big NYC firms have essentially equivalent hours, go ahead. I've done enough research on this to know that it just isn't true.
I'm a CLS 2L, just finished EIP. I have some insider info:
1. There were only a handful of students TOTAL who did not have offers coming out of EIP, according to career services. And career services was working with all of them, they're probably all placed by now, and those who I knew without jobs a month ago did not feel worried.
2. The reason Harvard is probably being more aggressive is because they have their interviews waaaay after Columbia's. Columbia's first round interviewing was done mid-August - before Lehman, AIG, etc. Harvard's isn't until mid-October or something. This will probably be the first year that our numbers at firms are higher than Harvard's, just because firms had to tighten up on the offers after all their clients collapsed. So, yeah - Harvard should be worried.
3. (this may incur some wrath but) I have always had a positive experience with Columbia administration. Yes there were times that Career Services could have been more responsive (when I needed resume advice from my public interest summer abroad and had to email more than once from crappy internet cafes), and times when I wish I had not taken their advice (like in canceling a particular callback). But nothing is perfect, and I found them very personable and accessible overall. They are good at putting students at ease, and definitely put me at ease. They also have an amazing relationship with the law firms.
I also find Dean Schizer anything but unresponsive, and Student Services is helpful as well. Everyone has different experiences, but I love CLS, I love the CLS administration, and I've had a really positive experience here. Not to undermine if others haven't, just to give a non-griping viewpoint.
140 - Your "insider info" is a joke. Do you work in CLS's PR department or something?
"Only a handful"? Yes, it is CLS, it's not like half the class didn't get offers. Still, a lot more students came out of EIP without offers than in previous years.
"Career services was working with all of them"? Of course CS was "working with...them", the issue is whether it was (is) doing a good enough job.
"They're probably all placed by now"? Don't be stupid. There is anecdotal evidence from prior posters that this is certainly not true. Any CLS 2L who knew many of their classmates would also know this is not true. This statement makes me question whether you really are a CLS student.
Those without jobs a month ago "did not feel worried." Ok, now I'm sure you have never even been near CLS.
I'm a CLS 2L that has accepted an offer and I have no particular complaints about career services or Dean Wayne. I do have complaints about you spewing ignorance though.
Career Services sucks. All they did was tell us that we are Columbia students and to interview with a lot of firms and someone will get you a job. Well, no crap but as far as helping us make decisions about what would be best for our future careers or getting jobs at firms we really wanted to work for they didn't do crap. I am thrilled they fired her, she was terrible.
They sent us an e-mail just now saying that they have been looking for a director since September. Does anyone know more?
I hear that they are interviewing people now.