there, or their? 1st? 2nd? podium?

1

Fry Frank for doing such things

*all of their jobs

Otherwise, great post, Elie.

Wow, right before Thanksgiving. Better buy as much turkey on sale as possible.

#2 is a D-bag

their jobs of been outsourced? have been outsourced?

Milbank's next!!!!

"Apparently, their jobs of been outsourced."

Once you are done writing an article, just read it through, ONCE and you should be able to catch this.

"of been"

their jobs *of* been outsourced? have been outsourced?

Fry Frank for doing such things

Today's Third Grade Lesson in the English Language: There, Their, and They're: How to Use Them Properly.

I used to get annoyed by the grammar and proofreading lessons in the comments, but this is ridiculous.

Pathetic. With all these firms being open and honest about their layoffs, Fried Frank should not have felt like an outsider by doing the same. Instead, they took the slimy, chickenshit way of downsizing.

Wow. What a bunch of dirtbags. At least they could come clean and admit that the layoffs were based on the tanking economy. No one would blame them. Everyone is doing it.

What a terrible, terrible firm.

THERE NUMBERS?!?!?!?!

The only good news we've had all month was Skadden. And then Cravath had to go crap all over it.

all your base are belong to MysTTTal

They obviously use voice recognition software at ATL and then don't proof read what comes out...that's the only explanation for these many, many mistakes.

BITCH SPREAD THE BUTTCHEEKS AND LET ME SMELL THE JUICY INSIDES!

Fry Frank for doing such things

French Fried Frank

Fry Frank for doing such things

What is going on at Milbank?

Elie, good post! Keep up the good work...you are really doing a great service to the associate community. If it were not for ATL, we would have no voice against the firms. Disregard the grammar police, at the end of the day they appreciate your efforts too.

What is going on at Paul Hastings?

Do you want fries with your fried franks?

Why the F would FF partners think that someone they've just laid off will refrain from speaking about it to anyone, like ATTTL?

I can see the exchange now.

"GET THE F OUT OF MY FIRM."
"BUT DON'T TELL ANYONE ABOUT THIS. OR ELSE...."

19 - excellent.

the rest of ATL, the guys I interviewed w/ at FF we're the biggest d-bags, their d-baggery just permeates that place.

good luck to those let go - move somewhere warm.

"we would have no voice against the firms"

Dear teh clueless idiot

http://newyork.craigslist.org/lgi/lgl/926210810.html

HTH

Damn, Michelle Obama is one fugly WNBA player.

SJU Law Dean died yesterday.

Could ATL please put together a spreadsheet keeping track of this fall's layoffs? Am interested in the total numbers. Rough estimate: We are at about 500 attorney layoffs in all of AmLaw 200.

19 - excellent.

the rest of ATL, the guys I interviewed w/ at FF we're the biggest d-bags, their d-baggery just permeates that place.

good luck to those let go - move somewhere warm.

fried frankly i fould not have expected fomesthing like fis happening

I have met the Fried Frank managing partner a few times, and she is obviously a Dbag. I can't believe what a coward she is for doing layoffs like this.

I have met the Fried Frank managing partner a few times, and she is obviously a Dbag. I can't believe what a coward she is for doing layoffs like this.

fried frankly i fould not have expected fomesthing like fis happening

It would be nice to have some sort of chart/excel spreadsheet (sortable by name/vault ranking?) that indicates which firms are laying off associates - sort of like the bar expenses stuff that you compiled last year... just a suggestion so we can keep track of all this info...

When I interviewed at FF a few years back, the big wig RE guy I was interviewing with actually pulled out a magazine with his face on the cover and said "This is why you should come work here."

Thank god I didn't go there.

SKADDEN4LYFE

Management at FF really is despicable. Lying about layoffs while almost every other firm out there is being upfront. FF has made a strong case for the title of "Worst Firm in America."

the axe is falling at Latham right now...its getting ugly

fried frankly i fould not have expected fomesthing like fis happening

I have met the Fried Frank managing partner a few times, and she is obviously a Dbag. I can't believe what a coward she is for doing layoffs like this.

31 - learn how to spell you retard:
"Dear teh clueless idiot"

"teh"...glad you are not the "voice" we rely on against the firms.

Suck it.
-26

Heard Simpson had lay offs yesterday. Does anyone have any info?

Fried Frank slept on the couch sometimes during undergrad.

Terrible. Why can't they be honest about what they are doing and not put blame on the associates? "Performance-based" my ass.

scumbags. their preventing these people from drawing unemployment and making their job search even that much harder. and it's not like this stealth shit works anymore! in the age of ATL, transparency is not only fairer, it's imperative.

law students, you should be noting who is laying off people openly vs. stealth and think about what kind of organization you would rather join.

Damn, Michelle Obama is one fugly WNBA player. I guess she ate Fried Frank and then out came some Skattten from her Ass Cravath.

first!

What a motherfucking craptastic TTT. I wanns fry frank's balls.

No big surprise about FF, the were just a lower market version of Cadwalader that heavily depended on real estate and structured finance. My only question is what took so long? I guess they just needed to see other firms terminating to muster the courage to pull the trigger.

if you work at FF, life already laid you off long ago.

second

50 - I doubt that the laid-off associates will be prevented from collecting unemployment by the firm contesting their claims.

Agreed with all that this move really shows that FF has no class. Note to FF - we all understand that the economy is in bad shape, and although we don't like it, I think most associates realize that some cuts may be necessary. However, when you do it this way and frame it as performance based, you make your former associates look bad and you lose all credibility.

Laterals / law school recruits - take notes on how different firms are handling this environment. FF has shown itself to be the worst thus far.

Seriously, as much as people want to criticize Cravath, the guys at FF are much bigger scumbags. The bonus cut at Cravath isn't a lot of money in the grand scheme of things. But unnecessarily ruining people's careers that they have invested so heavily in is just such a scumbag move. They could have just been straight about it like so many other firms. FF is not going to gain anything by this. They literally are ruining people's careers for nothing.

This is disgraceful. Times are tough. This is common knowledge for all attorneys and the world at large. Many firms have decided to layoff attorneys and staff and have been honorable in their statements that the dismissals were not performance related. Now we have another group of firms that have decided to fire attorneys for "performance reasons". Do these firms (Shearman, Fried Frank) think that we are all stupid? It doesn't take a genius (even though many of the posters consider themselves to be) to see that they are full of it.

Can someone tell me what classes are hit when layoffs occur? White & Case, Orrick, FF, Greenberg -- what class years are getting laid off, and in what proportions per class?

54 - FF does not have a structured finance department. Real estate dept is extremely prestigous, but not very large vis-a-vis the rest of the transactional groups. Cadwalader does not make an apt comparison.

You guys just don't get it. These aren't layoffs. The chairwoman said that "Fried Frank doesn't do lawyer layoffs."

Obviously, Fried Frank just so happened to have a firm full of terrible employees (which, of course, explains all of the terrible performance reviews). The WORST associates happened to be in the Real Estate/Corporate group (which explains why those people were fired for PERFORMANCE reasons), and it is purely coincidental that those groups happen to be a little slow these days.

But, seriously. Fried Frank doesn't do lawyer layoffs.

3L with offer at FF here -- just got a strange voice mail from them. I'm afraid to call them back.

This is disgraceful. Times are tough. This is common knowledge for all attorneys and the world at large. Many firms have decided to layoff attorneys and staff and have been honorable in their statements that the dismissals were not performance related. Now we have another group of firms that have decided to fire attorneys for "performance reasons". Do these firms (Shearman, Fried Frank) think that we are all stupid? It doesn't take a genius (even though many of the posters consider themselves to be) to see that they are full of it.

This is disgraceful. Times are tough. This is common knowledge for all attorneys and the world at large. Many firms have decided to layoff attorneys and staff and have been honorable in their statements that the dismissals were not performance related. Now we have another group of firms that have decided to fire attorneys for "performance reasons". Do these firms (Shearman, Fried Frank) think that we are all stupid? It doesn't take a genius (even though many of the posters consider themselves to be) to see that they are full of it.

God damn ... how are these people supposed to find new jobs when there are hundreds of attorneys on the street just like them?

i heard fried frank fired frank from accounting.

A couple of posters mentioned in the MB thread that Sidley was doing stealth layoffs too. Anyone have more information about that?

64: who is the vm from?

61 -- W&C laid off class of 2006 up. I believe even some counsel were laid off. Not sure about proportions.

64: transcript?

No one knows how well these associates were performing. Apparently the review process at FF is pretty lax. It's not "unnecessarily destroying careers" if the associates actively avoided work and were generally poor performers.

Also, FF was pretty much backed into a corner after Valerie Jacob's statement that "Fried Frank doesn't do layoffs." Either way they were going to get bashed. The market sucks, but maybe so did some of the people who got laid off.

Remember, everyone is going to say that they were loyal and didn't deserve to be fired - and its the people who get fired that tip off blogs like Above the Law.

I accidentally our recruiting prospects for the next business cycle! Is this dangerous?

How rotten to give "negative performance reviews" instead of admitting it's the economy! At least when I was laid off from a small firm they made it clear that they just couldn't afford my (meager) salary!

Fried Frank = Piece of shit

73 = fried frank troll. watch out 73 -- you're next!

Not only do you make associates look bad, you make the firm look bad. In other words, you are telling your clients that up until now they were paying top dollars for attorneys who weren't up to par. And why weren't they up to par? Because training sucks, exposure sucks, work environment sucks, or what? If I were a client, I would never hire that law firm again and demand a 40% cut from my latest bill because work was done by underperforming associates.

73: A FF partner.

what does fried frank specialize in? Personal injury and workers' compensation claims???

When I had my callback at FF a senior partner spent close to 10 minutes of the interview trying to force personal information out of me, and after that the mid-level picked a restaurant with almost nothing but red meat on the menu in spite of the fact a junior associate who was a religious vegetarian was coming with us.

With all of these layoffs I am going to need some viagra to continue plunging my thick glassy cock into associate ass.

21 = Comment of the Day finalist.

Ur mutha

73: A FF partner.

73: A FF partner.

I am dating a CWT NY associate. We will have all weekend to ravage each other. she is very passionate.

73, tell us something we don't know. "The market sucks, but maybe so did some of the people who got laid off." Really? Then why did FF (and firms of similar ilk) keep them around until now? Do firms not realize that for the most part, they look like bumbling mismanaging fools when they employ this tactic? Case in point: Jacob's statement that "Fried Frank doesn't do layoffs." Why would any half-brained leader make such a definitive statement during such uncertain times. Law firms may be a business but most management aren't good businessmen. Hence the bullsh*t.

I am a CWT female associate who is dating this complete dork who loves to post on ATL. He thinks he's getting laid this weekend. As if.

46- welcome to teh internets. have a look around.

46 - New to the internets? It was intentionally misspelled, moran.

Sincerely,
Not 31

Law students. Today you learn FF's motto: When the going gets tough, we throw associates under the bus.

Well, the no lay-off comment was said right before Lehman exploded, ML was bought, the Dow tanked to 2001 levels, the Big 3 were on the verge of bankruptcy, and the credit crunch became worse. It was a very poorly timed statement made right before things got a lot worse!

How rotten to give "negative performance reviews" instead of admitting it's the economy! At least when I was laid off from a small firm they made it clear that they just couldn't afford my (meager) salary!

#89 -- I hear you are a very passionate person. I like that. When you finish ravaging the other guy, wanna get together for dinner at Masa? OK then, well, say hi to your mother for me.

sorry, 93, things were shaky long before sept 2008

3L from FF here: they just revoked my offer.

the end is nigh for you work-obsessed biglaw idiots...when I turned down that T14 offer three years ago to come to my shitty state school for free, I didn't know if it was the right decision, but now I'm certain of it. When HLS grads are being laid off left and right, I'm pretty sure no one in the money center markets is safe. HA. HA. HA.

-state school top 5% 3L (who has 2 job offers)

i have been monitoring this situation and it is pathetic that these dopes who are partners would do something like this, haha. this reminds me of the movie office space where they lay people off on friday so they don't make scene and then they fix the payroll glitch to get milton out.

they prob went on partner retreat and ate filet and lobster and thought it would be a great idea to disguise layoffs like this and thought that people were idiots and wouldnt realize, haha. well now they are taking more flak because they are imbeciles and they want to throw kids out on the street so they can make sure to bring home paychecks they dont deserve b/c they are retards.

at the partner retreat the managing partner probably did a reenactment of wayne's world skit at the post-dinner rec show since she looks like garth algar. now FF is being taken over by the dude who runs video arcades and managing partner who looks like garth will have to do show from studio not wayne's basement.

btw do you think there was any banging at the partner retreat? party on!

i hope 97 is kidding

What a nightmare all of this is.

I want to hear more about this female CWT NY 05 associate, She sounds like she got some freak nasty in her.

Devin Chisler

are the attorneys already off the website? i want to check on a friend, but don't want to call...

98 - I'm sure you know firms are revoking offers all the time now. Perhaps you should think about accepting one of your offers before they realize you are a d-bag.

98- by money center markets, you mean that your TTT degree has gotten you 2 job offers at check cashing places?
wow! congrats, you're doing so much better than your TTT peers! keep it up! however, I do have an opening for a TTToiletier on my groundskeeping staff so do keep me in mind.
-T14 Sr. Associate.

98: Instead of reading ATL and patting yourself on the back, why don't you make a phone call PDQ and accept one of your supposed offers? Writing on the wall not big enough for you?

WE'RE GOING STREAKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Left the Frank to join another firm - it was like leaving Satan's rectum to emerge in the Alps during summer. Truly a shit shit shitty firm full of half men, half beasts. Are they alive? What happens when they sunlight touches their skin?

Left the Frank to join another firm - it was like leaving Satan's rectum to emerge in the Alps during summer. Truly a shit shit shitty firm full of half men, half beasts. Are they alive? What happens when sunlight touches their skin?

I want to hear more about this female CWT NY 05 associate, She sounds like she got some freak nasty in her.

Devin Chisler

As an actual (not imaginary) CWT female NY associate, I find some comments on this thread offensive.

Let me say, anyone that laughs in the faces of those laid off or potentially laid off, your time will come. Simple.

112: I don't think you'll see much laughing in their faces on this thread. Most of us have been quick to view this as a poor management decision on FF's part.

This isn't the first time. From 1991 in the NY Times:

"Merit was the only issue, contended Arthur Fleischer Jr. of Fried Frank.

''People who are not functioning as their peers are, are told that it doesn't make a lot of sense for them to stay here,'' he said. ''That goes back to time immemorial.'' He dismissed as nonsense the suggestion that anyone had been dismissed for economic reasons.

''I know most of the people who were let go, and most of them got great reviews,'' one recently dismissed Fried Frank lawyer countered. ''Don't give me this garbage that they were scum.'' '

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CEEDE143CF931A2575BC0A966958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

112: I don't think you'll see much laughing in their faces on this thread. Most of us have been quick to view this as a poor management decision on FF's part.

What is a female CWT associate?

Agree with 112. And it proves what an asshole those people already are, so in some ways their time already has come. Being happy at the misfortune of others is a sad way to live your life.

So who's next? Anyone we haven't heard mentioned yet?

What? They fire you, tell you that it is performance based (i.e., you suck) even though you both know it is a lie, and then they have the nerve to to tell you not to tell anyone how they are screwing you?

Are these FF guys fucking morons?

Fuck you, FF, for firing people into a shit market and telling them that it is their fault so that you can try to save face even if it blemishes their records, even though everyone knows you are a fucking liar.

I hate attorneys like this - they get up and spew absolute bullshit, and everyone knows it is bullshit and that they are being lied to. That is not a lawyer, that is a fucking hack. They are the easiest opponents to beat in court because they kill their own credibility.

Law students be warned: They seem like shit lawyers that will screw over their own.

-Not a FF lawyer

105 - The mere fact that you signed off as "T14 Sr. Associate" indicates that you are a loser devoid of any true happiness. It is so pathetic to have to validate your self-worth by the school you attended versus your performance and client base given that you are a senior associate. You are cleary never going to make partner and never going to get laid (excluding of course, by yourself)

hoof arted?

19- excellent

26- agreed, MysTTTal, despite having limited language abilities no doubt caused by a lifetime of KFC and McDonalds consumption, provides an extremely valuable service to the entire associate world. GOD BLESS MYSTTTAL

111- people like you are the reason democracy is a crime against humanity

Schwenkel sucks. He fired my ass while pulling out some performance bullshit. He's an ass. A month earlier he was praising my ass. Grow some balls buffalo douchebag. Admit it was because you and your partners are second rate and got no credit crunch work. Get out of One New York Plaza - you smell up the joint.

Guess I should have clarified - already accepted one offer and have a standing offer at the second place, a lit boutique, should my offer get revoked or should I just decide that I don't like it there. And no, the second firm isn't family - I have prior non-legal work connections there and they were extremely happy with the work that I did for them.

Don't get mad at me that I have no debt and will be getting paid as much as you all - or I guess I should say those of you who still have jobs.

Have fun paying off your $150K student loans while working at McDonalds. Who knows, when I'm buying my Rolex at this time next year you will have made manager and have a hope of paying off your debt before you die.

Best,

98

*prepares for criticism of real or perceived grammatical errors in my post*

FF doesn't do layoffs?

- Really?

123: Unquestionably a Fried Franker. Good luck friend.

124, you are a DBagger. Have fun with ur rolex. What an absolute chump. Working at McDonalds? What an idiot. So, actually, what you despise, you ARE!!!

111 - what about a passionate female CWT associate offends you? No one is talking to or about you, so why are you offended? It is not all about you. The idea that one of your female colleagues is passionate, or that someone would recognize and talk about that in the abstract, is offensive to you? You suck, mind your own fucking business.

(now THAT was about you, so now you can be offended)

64: I got a voice mail too, about my "plans"? WTF? Did you call back? I'm going to wait until Monday...

This isn't the first time. From 1991 in the NY Times:

"Merit was the only issue, contended Arthur Fleischer Jr. of Fried Frank.

''People who are not functioning as their peers are, are told that it doesn't make a lot of sense for them to stay here,'' he said. ''That goes back to time immemorial.'' He dismissed as nonsense the suggestion that anyone had been dismissed for economic reasons.

''I know most of the people who were let go, and most of them got great reviews,'' one recently dismissed Fried Frank lawyer countered. ''Don't give me this garbage that they were scum.'' '

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CEEDE143CF931A2575BC0A966958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

What is a female CWT associate?

fried frank the tank

111 here: I'm actually just a dude. Lord, you people are either really gullible or really take trolling to the next level. I'm guessing the former.

98/124: FYI, state schools are the only ones to give out financial aid. Because the ignorance and short-sightedness of your youth pissed me off, I'll make rare boast: T5 grad who got full ride. Based on stats alone, I'm immeasurably better off than you. So STFU and prepare for reality.

(PS: Rolexes are so 1990s)

and yes, i had a typo: "state schools AREN'T the only ones..." bring it on!

It's funny how people feel the need to acquire status symbols.

Yeah, 136, I'm sure you live in an 800 sq ft apartment with 5 roommates and don't own suits from anywhere but JC Pennys.

131 asks:

What is a female CWT associate?

Answer: eye candy.

129: Are you joking?? Call firm back asap and say that your plans were to call today and accept the offer! Email them too so that you have it in writing!

"Yeah, 136, I'm sure you live in an 800 sq ft apartment with 5 roommates and don't own suits from anywhere but JC Pennys."

Sure, whatever.

-136

98/124 Douche -

Enjoy your offer(s). Hope they're not revoked when your TTT firm(s) decide they'd rather have some bragging rights (and possible potential clients) by hiring from the flood of displaced Big Law types (with T14 pedigrees) who are/will be desperate for a paycheck to pay off their loans/lifestyles and are sure to start going down-market in their searches in a few months when severance peters out.

spelling tip:

[ax, axe] are variant spellings of the wood-cutting tool’s name; Americans generally use ax, the British axe, and both use a plural axes, pronounced AKS-iz. See SPELLING (1).

Fried Frank and Fired.

FF management = stupidest people in NYC. How could they have handled this situation so poorly? Did they really think that by spinning these layoffs as "performance," that it would escape notice?

If the firm had been honest, this would have been a mere blip on the radar screen. "Oh, Fried Frank is laying off for economic reasons? Join the club." End of story.

But they obviously decided against that tack. And now they will be known as the firm that threw its associates under the bus during an economic downturn. Classy.

"And now they will be known as the firm that threw its associates under the bus during an economic downturn."

Considering that lots of firms are doing this, will this even hurt them very much in terms of reputation?

Let's see, FF gives bad performance reviews to associates as a pretext, perhaps a false one at that, to firing them and then decides to advertise their decision as being based on such poor reviews. Can anyone say slander???

145, FF now is not the same as FF of 5-10 years ago.

145 - Yes. There are different ways of delivering bad news to people. This is just a slap in the face to see that this is how the firm handles things.

Let's see, FF gives bad performance reviews to associates as a pretext, perhaps a false one at that, to firing them and then decides to advertise their decision as being based on such poor reviews. Can anyone say slander???

Anybody heard anything about layoffs at Schulte this week?

Ummm...Hello...it's JCPenney, not "Pennys." And if I can afford both my student loans and a Stafford suit at all times during the next 10 years I will be quite content.

T14 3L with a V20 offer (for now).

145 - Yes. There are different ways of delivering bad news to people. This is just a slap in the face to see that this is how the firm handles things.

"Yes. There are different ways of delivering bad news to people. This is just a slap in the face to see that this is how the firm handles things."

I mean I get that part. It just seems like there have been a LOT of firms doing stealth layoffs, so it doesn't look like FF will look that much worse in comparison.

amazing coverage over the last few days, Elie. really terrific job.

where is mr "spendLove" now?!?

Thanks Elie. On another note, does anyone know how to get a gig at a UAW "jobs bank"?

153, properly executed stealth layoffs don't get splashed across the net. ergo the term "stealth". clearer now?

what about paul hastings?

Guys at my high school ate Fried Franks for lunch all the time. It was no big deal.

One of them is now dating a CWT associate.

Fried Frank is officially on the list of sneaky, liar, don't work here in the future firms.

"153, properly executed stealth layoffs don't get splashed across the net. ergo the term "stealth". clearer now?"

Fair enough.

What gets me is that Fried Frank knew they were about to make a bush league move. Why else would they tell associates not to talk to ATL? Valerie Ford Jacob and the rest of the partners at Fried Frank give wretched people a bad name.

What is a female CWT NY 05?

Weil is laying off M&A associates.

Fried Frank is officially on the list of sneaky, liar, don't work here in the future firms.

Fried Frank can photocopy my balls

Actually, this shows how "rise and fall" firms like Fried Frank, Cadwalader, Squire Sanders, Bryan Cave, Heller Ehrman, Thelen, etc., etc. are - they didn't get their mouth full enough, got caught up in the upwards competition spiral - and now collapse or are at least threatened to be seriously downsized.

The question is what's worse: not growing as fast as everyone else in a bull market or heavily downsizing or even ceasing to exist in an economic crisis?

To 158's "what about paul hastings?"

Stealth - always has and always will, at least in NYC office. It's evolved to an art form.

I never want another NYC partner to fucking tell me how much this firm is a fucking team

This firm is run by lying lying lying fucktards

Actually, this shows how "rise and fall" firms like Fried Frank, Cadwalader, Squire Sanders, Bryan Cave, Heller Ehrman, Thelen, etc., etc. are - they didn't get their mouth full enough, got caught up in the upwards competition spiral - and now collapse or are at least threatened to be seriously downsized.

The question is what's worse: not growing as fast as everyone else in a bull market or heavily downsizing or even ceasing to exist in an economic crisis?

Revenue may be down 8% from their projected 2008 revenue, but these cuts must have also been based on the projected revenue for 2009. I'm curious to see what FF's revnue projection is for 2009 and how it compares to 2007 and 2008.

Is it true that litigation is also being affected at the Fried? Partners and Special Counsel as well? Man--this place was so much better 2 years ago...

Weil is laying off M&A associates.

166, Cory?

111- the other women who read this blog are often offended by the sexist crap spouted off here on a daily basis, too.

128- since you're such a sexist jerk, you will appreciate the following sentence: your mother should have swallowed you. go kill youself.

111- the other women who read this blog are often offended by the sexist crap spouted off here on a daily basis, too.

128- since you're such a sexist jerk, you will appreciate the following sentence: your mother should have swallowed you. go kill youself.

i hope 124 catches an STI.

111 is a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude.

117 - what did I say that was sexist?

-128.

p.s. And I should kill myself for my post? Someone has anger issues. . .

111- the other women who read this blog are often offended by the sexist crap spouted off here on a daily basis, too.

128- since you're such a sexist jerk, you will appreciate the following sentence: your mother should have swallowed you. go kill youself.

generally- the sexism, the racism, the homophobia...none of it is okay! wonder why you're all losing your jobs and not being properly remunerated at the end of the year? Karma, losers!

I meant 177

-128/180

I am dating a CWT NY associate. We will have all weekend to ravage each other. he is very passionate.

STI? what's an STI?

177 - awesome

98/124 Douche-
105 here. Disregarding the fact you will always have the SH!T stain of a TTT degree on your forehead for the rest of your life (watch the way people wince, look aside embarrassedly or just stare blankly when you tell them where you acquired your craptastic JD), you are an idiotic poor striver. Chip on your shoulder and a pathetic yen for status symbols.

speaking of status symbols, my firm has a very famous name that many non-lawyers recognize. we have an opening in our basement doc review department for a "staff attorney". as part of our morale boosting program (apparently a number of them had kill-selfed due to the fact that we chained them to their clicking stations), we gave them business cards with the firm logo.
interested?

98 and 124 - What do you have to say to those of us that went to a T14 for free? Are we stupid/pathetic workaholics as well? Or just better than you?

What would any one want to have his balls photocopied? Explain for me people...

I am dating a CWT NY associate. We will have all weekend to ravage each other. he is very passionate and we are letting our true selves out..

Right now, a female CWT Associate is Bob Link.

Right now, a female CWT Associate is Bob Link.

Fried Frank can no longer say it is better than any other V100 firm. Douches

I am dating a female CWT NY 05 associate. We are just beginning to express our passion for each other and are both working assiduously to sow the seeds of our freak nasty flower.

I am dating a CWT NY associate. We will have all weekend to ravage each other. he is very passionate and we are letting our true selves out..

Old gal Jacob went public last August telling an untruth to the Associates that FF never laid off Lawyers and got caught in the deceipt by one of the posters on the site re staff layoff, which is still crucifying FF for their actions against long-term older employees. You Associates who obviously still believe or believed in fairytales may want to take a look at that site. Some interesting articles posted on that along with very interesting comments and information.

Jacob pushed to get whatshisface's name into the firm as she wanted to have a firm across the ocean and they gave him power beyond belief. Well, looks like her bringing the Messiah in is turning out to not be such a heavenly deal! Fried Frank is going to be what: 'A money making business' as was touted a few years ago to all personnel - staff and lawyers alike? Rather doing it the easy way - first went long term and loyal staff and now those 'inept' associates who didn't live up to their expectations at headquarters. Also, one could count as making money the partners who have walked out over the last two years and thus left FF with more millions to spend.

"Oh what tangled webs one weaves when they attempt to deceive...".

I've seen CWT female associates.

To ravage one I'd need : a bottle of Jim Beam; 10 Viagra; a blindfold; a ear plugs; and maybe nose plugs.

I am dating a female CWT NY 05 associate. We are just beginning to express our passion for each other and are both working assiduously to sow the seeds of our freak nasty flower.

Hey - site editors. Listen up. Can we remove the off-topic and inappropriate posts? Not only do they deter me from this site, but they are getting so numerous that they're outnumbering legitimate comments, leaving me looking for another source for lawyer gossip.

Hey clients????? That project my partner wants me to do this weekend........the one that he's not gonna read ever word of before he sends it to you? I don't think I'm gonna read every word of it either.

If you see the manager yell at your waitress, don't eat the food. hahahahahahahahaha

If I was a 1L right now I'd drop out.

You are going to spend Thanksgiving OUTLINING when you aren't going to get a job this summer or next summer.

DROP OUT and go do something meaningful with your life.

177 - what did I say that was sexist? Come on big talker . . .

dumbass.

-128.

Where is Loyola 2L right now?

I'd love to see what the admissions officers at T14 schools are telling people they are trying to sucker out of 150K right now.

"Oh students graduate and get 160 per year plus 40 in bonus right out the gate! Top students get to go to Cravath."

Such slime.

PAY ATTENTION PEOPLE:

FIrms that do bullshit stealth "review" layoffs are to be avoided. Laying people off sucks, but this crap is shady insult-to-injury. The layoff firms can be forgiven, the stealth firms should not be.

It's not the 1Ls who should be scared. If you are a 2L or a 3L, you should consider a joint degree so that you can actually enter a market that is hiring. Offers are getting pulled and it won't change soon.

196-
That is the credited response

I'm surprised there's been no mention of Winston & Strawn's layoffs on this site.

This is exactly what I would have expected of FF. Every friend I have who worked there has left - it is full of assholes and management has no respect for employees at all. A stupid move by Jacob - is she not aware that when you give a quote, it lives forever?

I'm surprised there's been no mention of Winston & Strawn's layoffs on this site.

This is exactly what I would have expected of FF. Every friend I have who worked there has left - it is full of assholes and management has no respect for employees at all. A stupid move by Jacob - is she not aware that when you give a quote, it lives forever?

Hey, layoff the CWT female chatter. One of our fellow bloggers is dating a female type of CWT associate. A little restraint please.

196 made me piss myself

This whole thing really seems unfair for the transactional guys. I don't know, but I'm guessing the transactional/deal attorneys brought in most of the revenue for FF over the past few years and now, as things start getting bad, they are the first to be let go. I know it's "just business" and that they have basically nothing to do. I'm just struck by how unfair it seems and must feel. My thoughts to those let go.

Welcome to the suck.

200 & 204 are right! If you are in law school currently (2L or 1L), you should immediately quit if you are not in the very top of your class. This profession is collapsing. The ABA has basically abandoned all meaningful barriers to entry. Law schools like GULC and Georgia State and SMU use part-time programs to generate cash with very little regard to how those students flood the marketplace and make it harder for everyone to generate a living. If everyone is a lawyer, how can you make a living charging for your "unique" services? You can't! We need meaningful barriers to entry like those in place for dentists and other traditionally high-earning professions. This is why law firms like Hunton Williams and Fried Frank and Alston & Bird can treat senior associates like garbage (because those associates have limited marketability). This doesn't make sense. An attorney with seven years worth of experience has more difficulty finding profitable employment than a first year? The profession is moving backwards! My biggest regret in life is that I didn't quit law school in my first year and pursue a nursing or physician assistant degree.

In reference to "Stealth Layoffs"....
Many firms in NYC are indeed doing them but we obviously don't know since they scattered the rejections across depts and classes like a stealthy firm would do.
The real problem with FF here is the chair's comment about "no layoffs" being completely deceptive and their failure to properly conduct a stealth layoff!
They should feel it in next years Vault.
Another sad day for biglaw....hedgefundlaw is much more fun while I still have a job.

69- where did anyone say that in the MB thread? Im at SidleyNY and I know of no layoffs at all so far. Everyones expecting bonuses to be pretty bad this year, though...

It is hard for me to believe that educated professionals write the crass comments on this site. Those who do are a disgrace to the profession. So are the partners at FF who decided to fire associates under the guise of performance. Anyway...

Nos. 200 & 204 are right. My advice: If you are in your first or second year of law school and are not in the very top of your class, you should quit immediately and enjoy your Thanksgiving. The profession you are working so hard to enter is now collapsing. The chief problem is that the ABA has dismantled all meaningful barriers to entry. We have part-time law school programs like those at GULC, GSU, and SMU that make tons of money by flooding the marketplace with lawyers. When the marketplace is flooded in this manner, you either can't charge enough to make a living because you have no "unique" services to offer or simply cannot find any business at all. Other membership organizations for other traditionally high-earning professions do a much better job of making entry difficult (e.g., the American Dental Association). The flooding of the marketplace also creates very interesting anomalies like the decreased marketability of senior associates in biglaw. This is crazy! Someone with years of experience has fewer options than someone with none? This is, by the way, why firms like A&B, Hunton, and FF can take thier senior associates for granted in well-documented and very sick ways. Trust me. The profession is moving backwards. My biggest regret in life is that I didn't quit after my first semester of law school and pursue a nursing or physician assistant degree.

Here is an article re Jacob and her 'power' written a few years ago and her getting spendruck hired and bringing him across the pond ....

http://www.legalbusiness.co.uk/content/view/21/28/

Re 8% off budget for '08:

The real question is how much below '07 was the '08 budget? Firm mgmt should have expected '08 to be behind '07. Or is FF mgmt **that** inept?

FF did this during the last slowdown as well (tho less dramatic, as the slowdown was less dramatic). Very close friend was "laid off" by performance review from FF, along with several others. The reviews were out of the blue, obviously constructed within the prior week, and totally unrelated to anything the associates had actually DONE (or not done).

On the plus side, since that shit was shady, FF was perfectly willing to tell future employers that the fired attorneys had voluntarily resigned to seek a "better fit."

"Everyone [at SidleyNY] expecting bonuses to be pretty bad this year, though..."

They'll be fine if you billed over 2000, and probably match Skadden over 2300. But did anyone bill that much?

FF did this during the last slowdown as well (tho less dramatic, as the slowdown was less dramatic). Very close friend was "laid off" by performance review from FF, along with several others. The reviews were out of the blue, obviously constructed within the prior week, and totally unrelated to anything the associates had actually DONE (or not done).

On the plus side, since that shit was shady, FF was perfectly willing to tell future employers that the fired attorneys had voluntarily resigned to seek a "better fit."

(and @198 -- for real!)

#209 - She obviously is so caught up in her own 'power' that she must feel she can do anything or say anything and no one dare challenge her! She was nailed for that comment to the Associates by an employee who was part of the staff layoffs in August.

One treats people the way they want to be treated and when one mistreats people it comes back two-fold, as looks like FF is once again finding out after this fiasco.

Slow learners aren't they! They are finding out 'payback can be a real bitch!'

Somali pirates lay off 17, but tell world they were "performance related."

222- yeah, i just meant that because business is so slow these days, hitting those hours will be tough for most people, and instead of just giving the bonus anyway as Sidley has done in the past, they simply wont this year...

186, you suck at life.

FFHSJ stinks to work there they are better off. I used to work there as a secretary. I was there for over 5 years and I was one of the secretaries let go in August I worked for 8 attorneys!!! . I have been going on interviews and every place I go can not believe I worked for that many people. FFHSJ does not treat their employees the right way. So do not be shocked of what they do.

FFHSJ stinks to work there they are better off. I used to work there as a secretary. I was there for over 5 years and I was one of the secretaries let go in August I worked for 8 attorneys!!! . I have been going on interviews and every place I go can not believe I worked for that many people. FFHSJ does not treat their employees the right way. So do not be shocked of what they do.

228/229 - Did you ever think that you really were laid off for performance-based reasons? If your grammar and writing style in your post is anything near what you use at work, I'd fire you in an hour.

"stinks to work there" "can not" "do not be shocked of what they do" - really?

-typical male sexist pig who makes more money in a year than you will in 10

wachtell going to pay less than 100% bonus.

you heard it here first.

72 - get a life. This many at once just happened to be underperforming that badly? How did they all get picked in the first place then, FF did such a bad job in recruiting them? I happen to know one associate who was just laid off who's anything but a slacker. I suggest reading #62 and getting it through your head that it's sarcasm.

"This many at once just happened to be underperforming that badly?"

As measured by hours billed, sure there were. It's not a coincidence, and it's not really something in the associates' control, but it's still a performance issue.

But there should be no expectation that a firm will keep 20 associates when there is only 2,000 hours of work to be done each month and no reasonable prospect of there being even 3,000 hours of work in a month anytime in the next 18 months. If they keep everyone around, everyone suffers.

"can not"

Check yo'self before U wreck yo'self, brotha. Can not is acceptable, esp. if the point is to emphasize the "not", which is a reasonable reading of that sentence.

Also, since when are ATL comments held to a standard of perfection?

"my firm has a very famous name that many non-lawyers recognize."

Jacoby & Meyers?

The Law Offices of James Sokolove?

233: not enough billable work to do is "still a performance issue"???

If this is true, what exactly would constitute a non-performance issue?

I left FFHSJ about a year ago. Work was slowing down, and it just didn't seem like they could continue with as many people as they had. So I made a jump. ... Whew!

Word to the wise: if you're not busy, watch your back.

214, the economy is tanking - your suggestion that law as an industry is collapsing is moronic and bad advice. What sector would you suggest a drop out pursue? Law firms include both pro-cyclical and counter-cyclical businesses. There are opportunities even amidst devastation and ruin in the economy at large -- and, in any event, this too shall pass. No one should be in a career in which they are not interested.

If you are in law school for the right reasons (interest in the profession), stay put -- you will likely find success. If you are in law school for the money, get out fast! Your mistake was made before the economy began to tank.

214, the economy is tanking - your suggestion that law as an industry is collapsing is moronic and bad advice. What sector would you suggest a drop out pursue? Law firms include both pro-cyclical and counter-cyclical businesses. There are opportunities even amidst devastation and ruin in the economy at large -- and, in any event, this too shall pass. No one should be in a career in which they are not interested.

If you are in law school for the right reasons (interest in the profession), stay put -- you will likely find success. If you are in law school for the money, get out fast! Your mistake was made before the economy began to tank.

"If this is true, what exactly would constitute a non-performance issue?"

Poor hygiene; sex; skin color; law school grades.

Do you actually believe that "hours billed" is not a component of regular reviews and partnership decisions? That it doesn't matter at all (I know that this is contrary to a lot of lip service from many partners)?

Look, if there are 20 associates trying to keep busy on 2,000 billables/month, some are going to have 150, some are going to have 100. If 5 of those 20 are consistently below the median, it's directly (they're "lazy") or indirectly (the partners prefer to give the work to someone else) related to performance. Fair? Of course not. But life ain't fair and getting (and keeping) a job in BIGLAW is **really** not fair.

My hypothetical group of 20 associates isn't going to remain 20 for more than a few months in the current market. How do you propose the firm decide amongst them, assuming that their work quality is substantially similar? Hours is a rough proxy, just like law school grades were when you were hired and the LSAT was when you got admitted to law school and the SAT for college. What do you want from a business w/o qualified, professional HR staff?

Does Valerie Ford Jacob have any children or did she eat them.

Oh, and maybe it's me, but I loved the old cheesy horror movie "Prince of Darkness". Tell me that Jacob, whose picture can be found here:

http://www.ffhsj.com/index.cfm?pageID=42&itemID=339

Doesn't bear an eery resemblance to one of the characters in the movie Prince of Darkness, found here:

http://www.sensesofcinema.com/images/directors/03/25/prince_dark.jpg

Well let's see...

Poor hygiene -- performance

law school grades -- irrelevant given we are talking about practicing attys

sex; skin color -- a great way to get sued

how is this defined as a stealth layoff? dewey laid off 11, and nobody's really giving them crap, so why is 15 at FF considered a stealth layoff instead of normal performance-based lawyoff? is 15 the magic number? give FF a break.

"law school grades -- irrelevant given we are talking about practicing attys"

Gibson Dunn dings partners with portable books over law school grades. If you were fired based on your law school grades (highly unlikely) it would be NOT performance based.

Hours billed is DEFINITELY performance-related.

Hey 243/JacobSpendlove/Borg,

I think the difference is the surfeit of self-regard so evident in Val's prior assertions that FF doesn't lay people off.

Except when they do.

And then claim it's really performance related, and not that the partners are afraid of making 800 grand instead of 1.1 million in the worst financial crisis in 75 years.

There's your magic number. And I don't work at FF.

#245 - You said it exactly correct, it is all about MONEY for them or loss thereof for them.

On the Staff Layoff site I've seen written:

Greed is the root of all Evil. Power Corrupts!

I was an FFHSJ 3d year associate who got laid off in the last "not dramatic" slowdown mentioned by 223. It was just about this time of year - mid-November, two months after 9/11 - if you call that not dramatic. After the tech bubble, the economy was already sliding. After 9/11, No IPOs, no transactions, no corporate work. I had never lost a job and was totally blindsided.

During the performance review before I left, they collected every tiny negative comment about my performance and blew it up out of proportion, and left out anything positive. When I pointed this out to the partners in the room, they acknowledged 'that's a fair assessment." Such a sham. I got 3 months severence and outplacement services. They claimed they would keep it very confidential, so as not to cause a stigma in my job search. But I figured out pretty quickly it was to protect the firm from appearing to have financial trouble by causing everyone leaving to be too embarrassed to speak up about what was going on, to avoid having the many laid off associates talk with each other and share information, and, perhaps, to prevent me from bringing some kind of employment suit? not likely.

Also, they were surprised by my intention to collect unemployment (to which I was, of course, entitled). Apparently they thought attorneys should be "above" collecting unemployment. They never responded to the UI inquiries, but unless the employer actively objects, the claims go through. It wasn't much, but it helped. In case anyone needs to know. (File early, especially since the Prez just signed a 13-week extension.)

So, it looks like "FF doesn't do attorney layoffs" might be true, but FF does attempt to do stealthy fake performance-related terminations as a matter of policy every time there is an economic downturn is also true.

I understand from the chatter among former FF lawyers that even partners have been asked to leave in the last few months and some have.

I'm sorry to hear that FF attorneys and staff are going through this again and that they are not being treated well. It's rotten.

On the other hand, quitting law school is silly. Some lawyers are doing a booming business right now. Think Bankruptcy! And the bread & butter practices that are steady during any economic times like health, tax, they're all fine. Pursue what you want. You don't need to work at BigLaw.

Me, I'm a fed. Gotta say, it's a good time to be in government. You'll never be rich, but you'll never be poor; the client is always the good guy (i.e. the taxpayer), there's a lot of variety, and the issues can get pretty interesting. Plus the hours are such that you can actually have the time to enjoy the money you do make. Keep in mind that once you've worked at a firm, the rules on hiring and pay make it reasonably easy to get the top of the scale - if you can get in. It's still the government scale, but worth at least considering as an alternative.

227- are you a contract attorney or a staff attorney?

How many years should I spend at a firm before transitioning to the government?

247 - insightful comment. they sound like real jerks over at FF.

What really takes me by surprise is the associates seem to be shocked or upset they were subjected to being laid off and in a quite under-handed way. If any had been paying attention to the Staff Layoff Blogs, many comments were made about the associate stealth layoffs that had been going on for years. In fact, as pointed out above, Jacob was 'outed' by one of the posters for making a false statement to the associates that FF did not layoff lawyers and posted a newspaper article to prove it. ATL ran a story on that article once it was brought to their attention.

Some associates made nasty remarks about staff who were laid off in August, one has to wonder did any of them get their just rewards in this layoff for being so pompous and nasty?

I am very grateful to my fellow secretary above who risked ridicule by super-conceited attorneys on ATL--who have the same attitude we were subjected to when staff were laid off at FF. Fried Frank has no humanity, pro bono be damned. Fried Frank also knows how to recruit young, high school educated secretaries and pay them low salaries, precisely because these staff didn't have the academic skills and/or opportunities of the lawyers who, when they're friendly, are usually patronizing them.

251--no. Not at all. The Fried has been plagued with dead weight on both the staff and attorney side. We are getting lean and mean and will continue to kick ass. Ass-ociates billing 1500 deserved to go. There was plenty of work and no one reached out for it. We are fine, dead weight be gone--I need an assistant who can turn my edits with no errors and I need juniors who answer the phone past 730. Get off FFHSJs back, yesterday and today were long, long overdue.

Next step, partners who bring in 0 dollars a year.

253 - the problem is the BS way the firm tries to cover it up, not the fact that its done. the "we don't do layoffs" lip service followed by, uh, layoffs.

216: Not in the main MB thread, it was in the MB speculation thread that a handful of people mentioned Sidley and its stealth layoffs.

-69

#251 - Yes FF has become quite lean and mean and kicking ass over the past 4 years. However, I do believe they kicked one too many asses They will be having theirs kicked back!

Next to go will be partners who bring in 0 dollars a year? Now, is this suppose to be the announcement to them so they leave quietly and quickly so the old gal can say FF never lays off Partners? Surely she and her side-kick have the spin prepared as to how those excellent and dedicated Partners have decided to leave and go to such and such a firm for a high position and how much they'll be missed. Maybe they'll be more on the ball this time than for the one last summer who left quietly and many of the Partners and staff didn't even know she had already gone. Then they came out with that laughable spin a week after she left as to where she had gone. Not even a farewell party!

You need an assistant who can turn your edits with no errors? Do you actually think there is a staff member left who gives a damn about the partners and FF anymore? You need juniors who answer the phone past 7:30? Where are you - sitting at home eating dinner with your family as they slave away on a case to all hours of the night to make you look good?

FF certainly is "lean and mean and kicking ass' and greedy and on a power high and gods and goddesses in their minds only!

I'm a former FF lawyer. Much happier at my new firm. Partners are generally much nicer and they actually DO work.

FF is a total shithole. I am not surprised at all by this. The partners are total scum. I hope they all rot in hell. This is such a little bitch move on their part. They are totally heartless fuckers. Some of the people I know were layed off were good associates. Even the ones weren't good associates deserve better than this.

I feel awful for the people who got the shaft. Good luck to you all.

THE BIG PICTURE:

FF's business model, which worked during the bull market, may fail in this bear market. FF's business model is to service the investment banks and private equity firms. These businesses have been hit the hardest by the downturn in the economy. In particular, FF's biggest client is GS. GS stock is down 75% from its high. As goes GS, goes FF. In addition, FF is much more exposed to the downturn in the economy than other major NY firms, because it lacks a strong litigation, regulatory, and bankruptcy practice. The firm's core groups -- M&A, real estate, capital markets, finance -- will suffer terribly in this bear market.

Thus, there is a real and serious risk that FF won't survive in its current form if the economy doesn't rebound in 2009.

With respect to these layoffs, the issue is not whether FF should have fired these attorneys -- that is a business decision for FF. The issue is how it handled those layoffs.

The co-head of the firm told FF's associates that FF doesn't lay off associates. More recently, the head of the corporate was very bullish on the firm's business, and reassured associates that the firm was well positioned. Both statements seemed unreasonable when made given the state of the economy. Then came these layoffs.

I summered at FF (I'm a 3L) and I can confirm the above comment. I also got a voicemail and when I called back I was told that while I still officially had an offer the economic outlook was not good and I was seriously encouraged to look elsewhere for opportunities next year.

Anyone know how many laid off in litigation???

None. FFHSJ litigation is strong; in fact, stronger than ever!

259, sorry to hear about that. I would've expected firms to delay first year starting dates rather than tell them outright to look somewhere else.

you people are stupid. the firm is having a down year and they chopped some rotten wood. big fking deal. get over it. and if you think the people who got chopped were smart, loyal, worked real hard and were a pleasure to deal with and so didnt deserve it...dream the fck on. they even canned a pal of top mgmt. just goes to show being a douche bag will catch up to you every time. no one is crying over losing this lot.

260 -- uncertain how many and if they are done. But certainly not zero.

Congratulations to all former FF employees who had the smarts to go with their gut and get the hell out of Dodge!

#s73,243,263 - I worked with the attorneys laid off yesterday - for many years. They were NOT slackers. These associates worked all hours of the night for partners who were home enjoying family meals, and for what?!

There is a life after FF. I know because I have one!

I never thought I would see the day when I would express my shame for this firm. It has definitely changed for the worse since Mr. Spendf__k arrived.

Chins up all! The wheels of the Gods never stop. What goes around will come back to bite!

I also summered there last year and I have not gotten a call, strange.

266- I wonder if they are targeting summers who indicated more interest in certain depressed practice areas (e.g., real estate).

is there a final tally for ff layoffs? and is it over? Lit laid off at least 10 people yesterday, and corporate layoffs continued into Friday. many associates have not even had their annual reviews. one would hope that the "performance based" layoffs are over before the coming holiday week, but the way FF has handled this, i wouldnt be so sure.

FF 4th year here.
I was specifically warned by a partner that if things don't turn around in 6 months, there will be a round of drastic layoffs - or worse. My impression is that the firm is a sinking ship. The problem is, for those who just got laid off and for those that are left, is that there is nowhere else to go. This is a problem for all laid-off attorneys, anywhere in the US. Many of us will not be able to find comparable legal employment, and once a certain amount of time has passed, a BigLaw career will be permanently foreclosed. Jesus, I hope everyone has saved their money.

263, I don't think anyone is arguing that the firm shouldn't be allowed to do layoffs - it's just that ppl are angry that they are disguising these layoffs as being entirely performance-based and not due to the economy. And the co-chair's comment about never doing layoffs doesn't help either.

Honestly, I don't know what management is thinking. They seem to be stepping into one PR disaster after another.

266 - they are probably targeting TTTs

271--266 here, I am attending a TTT, so I seriously doubt it.

"Just goes to show being a douche bag will catch up to you every time."

263, sorry that you got canned. But good to see your objective and non-pitying attitude. Chin up, dude.

266/272, classy of you to give a civil reply to 271. Good luck!

Class of 03 former FFHSJ'r here (does Shelly still raise his butt up in the air to access the secured doors?--just to prove I know FFHSJ internals!). Have the names of the people laid off been removed from the website? I want to reach out to old friends but I also don't want to appear douchey.

How likely is it that firms will be revoking offers? Do you think they will still pay for the bar expenses at least?

To the 3Ls getting their offers revoked - had you already accepted your FF offer or were you still waiting to hear about clerkships/gov jobs/etc?

#265 - Jacob brought him into the firm. She had worked with him on the proposed merger between Ashurst and Fried Frank, talks collapsed after about a year's negotiations. He was replaced as managing director at Ashurst in January 2004 and then left there to join FF in the UK office in April of that year. How he ever got so much power at FF has always boggled my mind.

Here is a link to a news story:

http://www.legalweek.com/Articles/118951/Spendlove+quits+Ashurst+for+Fried+Frank.html

The attorneys who were fired are still listed on the firm's website. Check back in 3 months!

Sucks to be a FF associate who kept there job. They have no options right now other than trying to stick it out and pray things turn around. If it truly is a sinking ship (which I as a former associate there, believe it is), the associates who survived this can't get out b/c not only is the job market clearly awful but any FF associate who puts their resume out there right now will be perceived as having been cut for performance. There is no way to distinguish someone who wasn't cut b/c everyone is still employed there technically.

280 -- 3 mos. is not that long, even these days. After that time, it will be easy to distinguish.

You'll all call me a d-bag, but I think the people that were cut probably haven't been pulling their weight for a long time and have been living off of the firm's largess. Now the firm's survival depends upon ending some of these charity cases, and if they brought up things that happened a year ago, it just means they were working on borrowed time since then.

253-are you joking? that is the most rediculously obvious FF partner troll comment of this whole post. Why on earth would anyone purposely bill 1500 hours when there was 'plenty of work.' That gets comment of the week for pure insanity trollinessisity. Why do you lose your status of a human being when you become a partner?

I've refrained from posting until now, but given the nature of some of the comments being posted by people who obviously are aligned with the firm going forward, I wanted to clarify some things.

To 253. You state: "Ass-ociates billing 1500 deserved to go. There was plenty of work and no one reached out for it." Well, to scond the last poster, your weak attempt at trying to defend the firm's actions by besmirching the associates let go is despicable. I find it hard to believe you are a partner, as all of the partners I know at the firm are above this type of conduct. My guess is you are an associate who thinks this somehow will benefit you. Well, good luck.

The fact is that the associates let go included some of the hardest working and dedicated people at the firm. The firm just does not have the business at the current time to support its staff. The firm's corporate practice over the last few years relied heavily on private equity transactions sourced from a few PE clients. The volume of PE deals began to decline over a year ago, and decreased further as the credit crisis progressed. With the financial meltdown in Sept, deal work has all but dried up. The firm's captial markets practice group, while somewhat leaner than the M&A group, has undoubtedly suffered tremendously with the shutdown in the high-yield debt and IPO markets (there has not been an IPO in the US in 4 months).

The effect on associates, particularly mid-level associates who, it seems, were targeted in these layoffs, is obvious. With much of the business drying up, and any leftover work being done by partners or more senior associates trying to maintain their own hours, the lack of any work trickeling down left associates at lower levels without any work and very vulnerable in the current environment. In normal cyclical downturns in corporate work, a pickup in litigation would compensate for the lack of deal work. However, that has not happened and litigation is equally slow.

Without a doubt, the number of associates let go will be more those posted on this blog, as a good number of them will elect not to publicize the fact that they received a negative review. This is one of the evils of stealth layoffs - they shame those who are let go into keeping quiet. stealth layoffs, while providing some benefits to those let go in a normal market, in the current evironment arguably do not.

What is striking is the apparent haste of the firm's actions. Mass stealth layoffs over a period of two days was bound to lead to the PR mess the firm now finds itself. It seems as if the firm suddenly realized that it was staring into the abyss

Very little has been said about the FF DC office, but stealth layoffs have been happening in that office over the course of several months affecting associates in both corporate and litigation. Morale is terrible.

Very well said, 284.

Nice job indeed 284.
I will add that at FF and other firms that do not have the Cadwalader & GT "eat what you kill" partner profit "sharing" system there will need to be fundamental changes in business plans in order to remain super profitable in the future. First, attorneys not bringing in any business, and certainly those with no prospects of bringing in business due to the "service" nature of their specialty (eg. most tax and benefits attorneys), will simply not be made true partners (ie. equity - they can be called partner, counsel, or whatever else) and will get compensation of $250k-350k. In USA that is nice money and for servicing someone else's clients/business that is very generous. No other business does the individual who brings in the customer (client) share so much with others at the company who assist in providing service. This is not to belittle the work of these attorneys -- it is necessary, etc. -- but heads have to be screwed back on.
As to Valerie Jacob at FF: she is a pretty cool cat if you get to know her.
And yes, FF has been laying off associates for bs performance reasons while keeping dead weight/service partners at inflated "partner" compensation -- part of the reason someone like Fraidin left years ago (that and a power struggle)

There are still more layoffs to come. Many litigation people still haven't gotten reviews. Classy move again FF, let people have the whole weekend to wonder if they are going to have a job. Why didn't the partners just sit down for 4 or 5 hours on thurs and fri and get this done. It's not like they actually have work to do b/c their incompetent asses can't bring in any business. BTW - not sure if anyone has noted this but FF's PPP has pretty much doubled over 2 or 3 years. But now the partners are too greedy to go back to PPP in the $900k-$1 mm range to save some jobs. They are scum!!!

288, do you think the firm will still let people go this thanksgiving week? My guess is those lit attorneys and corporate attorneys not reviewed are pretty safe.

I agree with 289. The firm may have shown itself to be pretty cold, but I think that would be too much even for them.

291!

Word on ther street is that layoffs are over "for now." Hold onto your butts in the springtime.

If any firm management actually reads these posts, I would plead that they consider offering one-year public interest sebaticals rather than conducting further layoffs. A layoff in the current economy will result in a 2-year resume gap. That is a complete career-killer. Think about it. One day you people are going to be on your deathbed, thinking about what you've done in this lifetime. I've often heard these past few days that at the end of the day, a law firm is still a "Business," but even a good businessman can treat employees as people.

I agree with you 293, if the layoffs aren't performance based and there is a reasonable chance those practice areas will come back. I wonder how many associates that would apply to though.

I've never seen Cadwalader and GT's profit sharing model considered the same. GT's model is not nearly as vicious as the "eat what you kill" model of firms like CWT because partners get money for referring work - even work they don't personally do. This fosters a sense of colloboration - a partner who can't do the work and/or doesn't have the expertise would rather give the work to another GT attorney than try to do it themselves without the right expertise or have the work go to another firm. My understanding of "eat what you kill" models is that a partner would rather muddle through it and try to do the work, even if they know nothing on the subject, than pass it on to someone else.

Let's be real for a second. While I feel for those who were laid off, does anyone really believe that some of them were "some of the hardest working and dedicated people at the firm" like 284 claims? Sure, they laid off the best associates and kept the losers... Those who have been in this business long enough know that performance based layoffs have always been part of the game. It's just that it usually took firms 3 years before firing anyone. Now that harder times are upon us firms are no longer willing to keep on board people who should never have been hired in the first place...

The truth I think is somewhere in the middle. Some were people who probably shouldn't have made it this long. Others were very capable folks in departments without enough work to go around. Categorical assertions of either extreme should be disregarded.

Wait- there are 3Ls who ACCEPTED their Fried Frank offers from the summer already and had the offer revoked post-acceptance?

i find that hard to believe.

@296, ok let's be real as you suggest.

You say that "Those who have been in this business long enough know that performance based layoffs have always been part of the game."

You are correct, they have. However, performance based layoffs of this scale and nature have not always been part of the game. Layoffs are certainly part of the game in the current environment, but by layoffs I mean a firm acknowledges to the individuals involved that, despite the fact that they have made valuable contributions to the firm and under normal circumstances would be retained, the firm has no choice but to cut staff in certain practice areas because of the slowdown. Other firms have taken this route, and I find it hard to believe that a firm takes a bigger reputational hit for doing so as opposed to taking the approach FF has chosen. If every investment bank is cutting staff because it does not have the business to support it, why can't a law firm do the same? Does FF think its clients are stupid and will assume all is well despite a financial crisis of this magnitude?

You write that "Now that harder times are upon us firms are no longer willing to keep on board people who should never have been hired in the first place..." Well, if this is part of the game as you assert, why haven't all of the other firms that FF would love to call its peers, and by that I mean Wachtell, DPW, S&C etc., taken the same actions as FF. I'm afraid the answer is simple - FF's practice is suffering more, and so, unlike FF, those firms have elected to hold on to their "losers" for now. It's a shame that their clients are getting screwed by having to pay $400+ an hour for the work of these rejects.

In fact, you raise a good question, why did FF hire these people in the first place? The fact is that FF had to do layoffs, and the firm undoubtedly had to have made decisions that were arbitrary in many cases. Certainly, there were associates among those let go who would have received the same review in a normal business environment, but that is not what happened. I suggest you take your own advice and get real.

Morale at the firm has been destroyed and those remaining will fear for their future as they wait for the next shoe to drop. The firm owes it to them and to the associates laid off to come forward and acknowledge what happened in a humane way.

Does anyone think the firm will fold? Perhaps renewed merger talks with Ashurst? Any suspicions of partners lateraling to other firms?

I wonder if the asset management group will head over to S&C - seems like a pretty good fit. As to real estate - Skadden maybe? Leave litigation to fend for themselves.

I feel more sorry for the people left at FF than the people that got laid off...can you image what that work environment must be like?

By way of support for #269's comment:

Another Fried Franker here (3rd year). While discussing the current market situation with a partner in my department, I was told that FF simply had too many associates. Without an uptick in the markets, another round of layoffs roughly equal in size to this last round would be inevitable. If you made it through this round - thankfully I did - keep your eyes open for the next round and for any exits you may find in the meantime!

Anyone hear of any further layoffs at FF today, Monday?

Anyone hear of any further layoffs at FF today, Monday?

#230: #228/229 said s/he worked as a SECRETARY, not as a lawyer. (The staff layoffs in August were in fact economic, not performance-related.) If you want to play grammar police, pick on other lawyers.

#230: #228/229 said s/he worked as a SECRETARY, not as a lawyer. (The staff layoffs in August were in fact economic, not performance-related.) If you want to play grammar police, pick on other lawyers.

#305 - That is another uhtruth FF told - blamed it on restructuring and blamed staff stating they were not up to par with FF's peers.

It takes just ONE lie to destroy trust and respect for someone and I so feel for the remaining associates and staff left working under those conditions.

if they got rid of some of the old do nothing and know nothing bankruptcy partners there would be enough $$$ to keep all the hardworking up and coming associates in jobs. those clowns from other groups with no street cred or bankruptcy skills pretending to be bankruptycy lawyers are taking up space and giving the place a bad name. damned shame really. how come no one talks about that??? because no one knows the truth.

I would love to know what kind of contract Just Spendless signed with FF. All the partners can't be so greedy they don't see what he has done to the reputation of the firm. I'm sure they'll learn (much too late) when the market improves and none of their favorite top school grads want to be associated with the firm.

Fried Frank sucks my balls. The partners are scum. People still don't know if they are safe. Avoid FF at all costs if you are a law student. It used to be a decent place but greed has brought it to its knees.

Is there a final estimate of the number of laid off associates? based on comments, it seems to be around 30.

is anyone going to miss justin?

Remember the business plan he presented two years ago - he was going to make FF into a making making business and expand it across to foreign countries. Recall he was brought in first as European Director and then a year later made top man over all of FF - US and Europe. Is that where the money is now going to set up foreign offices? Read the article ATL wrote and in it the article in the NY Times about law firms thriving in Dubai, etc.

More layoffs at FF yesterday and today. I think the count is upwards of about 50. That's 10% of the firm.

Worst part about it is that the axe-men and women who give the layoff reviews are flat-out lying to the people they're laying off. Scumbags every last one of them.

This firm is a sinking ship.

Man. Two days before Thanksgiving. Good luck all. Nothing else can be said.

Any FFHSj people on here that can tell us what's going on today--Tuesday?

as of today, Tuesday, no associates in DC have been laid off.

as of today, Tuesday, no associates in DC have been laid off.

as of today, Tuesday, no associates in DC have been laid off.

As of today, there are 409 associates and 27 Special Counsel. We'll have to see what that number is in 3 months to assess the carnage.

Thanks for the update.

314, you obviously don't know anything because you say 50 associates is 10% of the firm. I suggest you get your facts right and then you can post on here; otherwise, people know you don't actually have any information. I feel bad for you that you feel the need to post information that isn't true- it might be time to reevaluate your life?

I fear that the Fried Frank people have had the fear of God put into them by the firm. We got numerous solid and detailed tips about the corporate layoffs. The litigation layoffs ... not so much. And of course the firm doesn't comment on "rumors."

So, if you are a FF person with good information, you really shouldn't be afraid of emailing us at tips@abovethelaw.com. We'll keep you anonymous, just like we did with this post. Obviously, people just want to know what is going on inside your black box over there.
--Elie

I have heard at least eight confirmed layoffs in litigation (higher than the 0-3 people let go for performance reasons in a typical year). I suspect the number is actually higher than this. The litigation reviews have been spread out over the past few days (a truly unnecessary cruelty) and I am not certain whether they are over.
The layoffs seem to have hit the second year class particularly hard.

Elie,

Any chance that you could update the post with fuller numbers on how many people were actually let go?

Fried Frank partners have no souls. Two days before thanksgiving and they are still giving people the axe. Unreal. I hope they all choke on their turkey!!!

They most likely are putting the 'fear' into people - they can track emails on their system and have copies when they run their backup files. They do dirty to people, tell outright untruths, ruin people's lives and careers - they do it to their people without blnking an eye then let them face the shame.

320, that's not an accurate way of determining the total axed, as some who have not been laid off will try to move to other firms to avoid any risk of going down with the ship. M

320, that's not an accurate way of determining the total number of layoffs, because associates who have not been laid off may also try to move to other firms to avoid any risk of going down with the ship. It is highly unlikely FF will award any bonuses this year, so there is little incentive to stick around.

I was laid off by FF. Spoke with other FFers that were laid off. Seemed that we all got the same script as to why we were laid off... that we didn't speak up during meetings; we weren't work "acquisitive"; etc. I did a lot of work for one of the axe-men reviewing me, so I challenged these assertions and he actually admitted that I did speak up during meetings and I am work acquisitive, but that didn't change anything. Seems like we're all just getting the same shuck and jive.

Any other FFers have a similar experience? Not sure if I have one, but I'm looking into filing a lawsuit.

I was laid off by FF. Spoke with other FFers that were laid off. Seemed that we all got the same script as to why we were laid off... that we didn't speak up during meetings; we weren't work "acquisitive"; etc. I did a lot of work for one of the axe-men reviewing me, so I challenged these assertions and he actually admitted that I did speak up during meetings and I am work acquisitive, but that didn't change anything. Seems like we're all just getting the same shuck and jive.

Any other FFers have a similar experience? Not sure if I have one, but I'm looking into filing a lawsuit.

I was laid off by FF. Spoke with other FFers that were laid off. Seemed that we all got the same script as to why we were laid off... that we didn't speak up during meetings; we weren't work "acquisitive"; etc. I did a lot of work for one of the axe-men reviewing me, so I challenged these assertions and he actually admitted that I did speak up during meetings and I am work acquisitive, but that didn't change anything. Seems like we're all just getting the same shuck and jive.

Any other FFers have a similar experience? Not sure if I have one, but I'm looking into filing a lawsuit.

332, review contained similar themes with a different choice of words. didn't bother arguing since I knew what was going on.

still no layoffs in D.C.?

332 - Wondering if you couldn't sue for libel, or slander.

Seems like only a few lit layoffs. Now the question is whether FF will renege on its promise to pay lockstep bonuses this year.

They may well as an attempt at PR to get the remaining associates to say what a kind employer they actually are and the layoffs of their lawyers who are never laid off couldn't be helped. However, don't go out and spend it ahead of time as FF's veracity on a scale from one to ten is at a minus 10.

I work at FF London and the word is 6 associates have been let go.

I work at FF London and the word is 6 associates have been let go.

Hong Kong last month, US and UK this month - what next? France? Germany? Partners?

Anyone know if a one-way ticket has been purchased back to the UK?

#340 - I think two one-way tickets should be purchased.

All of the newly renovated floors are puzzling to me. Who is going to occupy them? And is it necessary to maintain Mechanic/Scheler's Park Avenue playground. Seems quite an expense in this climate.

334 - dc office has been doing stealth layoffs in corporate group for several months now, claiming performance based garbage. morale is at a super low and people are now adopting FF nyo mentality of keeping door closed all day. there is an air of fear and it's not pretty.

The kangaroo court met and watching others being taken out one-by-one has to be close to what could be called mental torture. That air of fear pervades that DC office from top to bottom..

#345 - Renovation of floors started before the economic downturn. We heard JS wanted a more modern look. Many prefer the old, cozier, warmer surroundings, although secretaries have a lot more desk space, which is good. The midtown office was necessary to rent after 9/11 in case there is another attack downtown.

#342 - Sorry, comment above was meant for you in response to your comments. Thanks.

How egotistical can one person be! Would only drink one brand of Spring Water it was brought in. Only travels first class, 4 star hotels, limos. Wants a modern look renovations are started.

Money is no option when spent on himself.

#347 The love is spent.

Re: #345, Yes, important to have two NYC offices in case there is another terrorist attack downtown. An obvious lie, because no real human thinks that way, they just wanted an office closer to their homes, and apart from the riffraff. What a bunch of self indulgent jackasses.

#345 - That and more - untruths were blatantly told to Associates obviously to keep them from getting nervous and possibly seeking a job elsewhere when they witnessed the support staff being laid off in August. Those Associates hung in there and now find themselves out on the street and their careers damaged by more untruths which may take years to overcome.

#350 response was meant for #349's comments.

#349, the midtown office was in fact rented after 9/11, in part because of the disruption caused by the attacks. The NYO servers went down and they had to send up a back-up server from DC in order to re-open the office on the Monday after the attacks, when the Financial District re-opened for business. It also makes it easier to schedule meetings with clients or adversaries who don't want to schlep downtown.

That is not to say, however, that the midtown office doesn't get overused by certain partners who don't want to schlep uptown and downtown all day. They commandeer a conference room (there are no offices, just carrels with computers and phones) and hang out making speakerphone calls.

BTW, the partners' retreat was not at the fancy resort it was originally scheduled for -- it was moved to some resort in NJ that was by all accounts pretty dismal.

#349, the midtown office was in fact rented after 9/11, in part because of the disruption caused by the attacks. The NYO servers went down and they had to send up a back-up server from DC in order to re-open the office on the Monday after the attacks, when the Financial District re-opened for business. It also makes it easier to schedule meetings with clients or adversaries who don't want to schlep downtown.

That is not to say, however, that the midtown office doesn't get overused by certain partners who don't want to schlep uptown and downtown all day. They commandeer a conference room (there are no offices, just carrels with computers and phones) and hang out making speakerphone calls.

BTW, the partners' retreat was not at the fancy resort it was originally scheduled for -- it was moved to some dingy resort in NJ that was by all accounts pretty dismal.

Dingy Resort in N...pretty dismal...that could certainly explain why they returned in such a foul mood and started laying off lawyers that are never laid off. Their high standards of 4 star resorts and champagne tastes reduced to local no star resort

What's happened to that great Business Plan for FF turning into a money making business and opening more firms across the oceans for fortune and fame?