Parting Thoughts And West Coast Hippie Bar Results
According the State Bar Association of California, results for the July 2008 bar exam should be available to individual test takers at 6 p.m. PST. Public mockery will have to wait until Sunday, so don’t blame ATL if the site crashes.
It’s really an appropriate way to end the week. Biglaw takes intelligent, well educated, and highly motivated people and turns them into good little worker bees that don’t make nearly as much as I-bankers. In return, the profession offers job security for all those who can eat the hours.
And yet, the next generation keeps on coming. California is going to mint a whole bunch of new lawyers in a few hours. Where are they all going to work? Who knows? Who cares? “Supply” is never a problem anyone has when looking to hire an attorney.
If there is a problem with our system, it’s not at our level. The problem really isn’t with partnerships that want to have the highest PPP possible, it’s not really with grumpy senior associates who want to be paid like partners even though they don’t generate any business. It’s not with entitled juniors or law student dauphins.
The oversupply problem starts with a circa 22-year-old kid who can’t figure out what to do with his life. Ph.D? No money. Med-School? You actually have to know something before they let you in. B-School? “I was told that there would be no math.”
When the economy turns back around, most of the people feeling the pain this month will land on their feet. Alternatively, if the economy never turns around again, people who have been laid off will have a head start on the Waterthunderdome economy of the future.
But that pipeline of new attorneys? That’s just not stopping.
Update (10:56): Welcome to over 5,000 new attorneys (if they want to be). From the State Bar of California:
The State Bar of California’s Committee of Bar Examiners reported today that 61.7 percent of the applicants passed the July 2008 General Bar Examination (GBX). If the 5,330 people who passed the July 2008 exam satisfy other requirements for admission, they will become members of the State Bar.Preliminary statistical analyses show that of the 8,637 applicants who took the GBX, 72.4 percent were first-time takers. The passing rate for 6,257 first-time applicants was 75.0 percent overall. The passing rate for the 2,380 applicants repeating the examination was 27.0 percent overall.
The NY passage rate was 74.7%. So either the California bar is harder or New Yorkers are smarter.
Congrats to those who passed and good luck to all.
Earlier: New York Bar Exam Results Are Up (But the page appears to be down)
(153) 
Comments
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First.
CA sucks
Female CWT NY 05 associate was just spotted with another female CWT NY 05 associate.
*tears* I-I hope the economy is better in 3 years.... =(
-Nervous T-14 1L
Send Job Offers to NervousT141L@gmail.com
Looks like 2 probably failed.
I can see it in your eyes.You don't have a single f*cking offer.
I see you every time you walk down the halls. You recover from your zombie-like trance just long enough to avert your eyes away from mine. The semester has worn you down and what do you have to show for it? You are a stump of a man.
You hope I don't start up a conversation with you because you know it will lead to the inevitable. That talk and pitter patter about plans for the summer. Great summer plans of getting wined and dined in some far off city. Great plans of meeting new people and getting paid to do nothing. Because you didn't get a single f*cking offer. And I can see the pain in your eyes.
I had more callbacks than you had first-interviews. I had more offers than the number of firms who would even deign to look at you twice. I've been to more cities in 4 weeks than you or your grandchildren will ever set foot in during their entire lives. Chicago, New York, LA. I can tell you which airlines fly from which terminals and how many feet you have to walk to get to the 6:50 flight to LaGuardia from the 5:30 flight from O'Hare. I've had more money thrown at me on a single dinner than you spent on food in an entire month. Because you had heard about the stories of excess. And they wouldn't even let you glance inside the window.
For me, normalcy begins again when I write my last exam for my last final of this semester. But for you, it never begins. I see you in the library paging through your casebook. I see you rush to each of your classes: a sense of urgency in the way you move. Because you lost the 1L race, and you'd like to move just a little faster for the 2L one
2 - l assume you'll be signing up for the Feb. exam.
I blame lendors for giving anyone money to go to Lincoln Law School.
Oh my God. I failed.
It's true. We are the problem. I've been lucky - transferred into T14 and have Big Law; but I still tell everyone who says they're studying for the LSATs to run for the hills.
6's rant begins like a sweet fucking power ballad.
6: unless you are a hot girl, nobody likes you.
The original post should have read:
"B-School? "Requires 4-5 years of real work experience."
This Blawg does NOT make any sence There is NO GURARNTEE to pass the Bar Exam and if you fail, MOST jurisdictions let you take it AGAIN anyway. I would be okay if these people drink a LITTLE bit of WINE only because it relaxes you and is also GOOD for you, but it should be the red wine only, not the white. I do NOT drink, though.
But sometimes DEPRESSION and DIVORSE are BIG problems for attorney's.
Jesus #6, that's deep. Didn't even consider how no-offers won't even get to enjoy Christmas.
uh, results don't come out for 2 more hours, so it would be difficult to know that you failed (or passed) yet...
Somehow they should reduce the number of law school and new lawyers being minted. Make it more like med school, where getting into ANY med school is at least a bit of an accomplishment.
And jackass can get into SOME crap-ass law school that will take their money, giving them a degree that is of little use to the student or to the world.
13 - Amen. That's the only thing that kept me (and other like-minded corporate folks) from it.
You should also mention that the 150+ law schools out there are a business that sell the "lawyer dream" to young naive college kids.
The reality is that unless you go to a T14 school, you will more than likely have a crap job. And even if you land the biglaw job, you will likely be miserable for years.
There are very few "successful" lawyers, if success equals money, power, AND relative happiness.
I've always thought we should close all private law schools under the top 100.
6 = Future law firm company man (or woman) who lives for the firm and who will make decent, but never big, money and who will be a hardass on all of the young associates because he/she will be alone and bitter.
I hate to admit it, but I have realized over the past year that Elie is right. I was actually good at science and math, but for whatever reason, I chickened out when it came time to make that decision in the undergrad years.
Understanding the law is generally either not that hard or unnecessarily complicated because lawyers have spent lifetimes complicating the law. A lot of good brains (not saying I am one) are getting wasted in this field.
it's about time. -shazam
20, make that top 14 and you're starting to make some sense.
To anyone who hasn't heard T-Pain's new joint "Superstar Lady" (featuring Young Cash) -- you need to go pick up the album.
Agree with 22. In my 4 years of corporate practice (at a V10), of the 35 or so M&A, financing and securities deals that I've worked on (only 3.5 of which have been 2008 YTD), I've used my brain about 2% of the time. So much of this work is mindless.
A J.D. is what you make of it. If someone goes into law school with biglaw as their only dream then they have already lost. For all the biglaw bloggers who love to mention they are T14 or whatever, you probably got A's in high school and have been getting C minuses in life ever since. I went to American, had a great experience there, currently working in international development, never bill hours, take life day by day, and have NO regrets!
Elie, you sack of shit- I saw this headline and thought you were announcing your departure from ATL. That's not right. Quit getting our hopes up.
Elie, you sack of shit- I saw this headline and thought you were announcing your departure from ATL. That's not right. Quit getting our hopes up.
Keep up the good work, Elie. Don't listen to the haters.
Elie, the haters are just jealous of your job security and are bitter that they didn't go to b-school. If we're going to be treated like bankers when times get tough, it'd be nice to be paid like them. Have a good weekend.
Too bad 6 recycled this crap. It's been around for a while. And 6 was even too pussy to write out "fucking."
I-Bankers are the most worthless people short of HR Strategic Advisors.
I wish these really were MysTTTal's parting thoughts.
www.fireeliemysTTTal.com
Wow---6 is such a tool
http://abovethelaw.com/2007/09/fall_recruiting_open_thread_su.php#comment-493941
http://abovethelaw.com/2007/09/fall_recruiting_this_is_how_yo.php#comment-494448
http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:wlRgBgw_P40J:www.autoadmit.com/thread.php%3Fthread_id%3D531222%26mc%3D132%26forum_id%3D2+%22I+can+see+it+in+your+eyes.You+don't+have+a+single+fucking+offer.%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=us
Typical Big Law Associate: A Cut and Paste Artist who fronts like they actually came up with something.
CA results are not available for another hour. No one in CA knows whether or not they passed yet.
30, 31: Implying otherwise about someone, especially by name, is unprofessional and tacky.
TTT? Did you make that up? Brilliant and original!!!
i for one like mysTTTal. good post.
agree with 25 and 36. oh, and I heard an unnamed someone passed the CA bar!
So how much do 2L grades matter to getting an offer this summer, especially in this economy?
- Nervous T10 2L
40 - if you go to a T14 just don't dip below a 3.0. Then again, if you're at GDC you should try to keep them up.
What? And no link to this?
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202426197661
The reality is that there are just too many law schools. The ABA needs to man up and get rid of everything that's not the top 100. Shut it down. 90% of the students from these schools have absolutely no chance to succeed in law.
The state bar associations also need to get their act together and tailor their requirements for newly minted attorneys to the market demand. There is no reason for states to be swearing in 10,000 new attorneys if there aren't going to be jobs available for them.
*goooooo blue! beat the buckeyes!*
another good weak of reporting this shitty economy elie!
*gives elie high five*
-nervous T-10 1L
email job leads to nervoust101l@yahoo.com
ps
what do you call 3 michigan alums sitting across the table from an osu alum?
a parole hearing
6, that was a brilliant piece. If you actually feel that way, then I pity you. Still, it does quite accurately capture the feeling of being in law school.
I think that all states should increase the difficulty of their bar exam. Pass rates are way too high. They should also give their conduct and fitness reviews some teeth.
nervous T-10 1L, did you really just say, "another good WEAK of reporting"
How on EARTH do you expect to get a job if you can't write? Good luck, man. That's real WEAK, bro.
The Examiners have made us wait since the end of July until 6:00pm tonight. Fucking torture.
The grass is alllllways greener, isn't it? Can't tell ya about med school, but bschool is WAY overrated, unless MAYBE you went to harvard/wharton/stanford. Just like law school, 98% of bschool grads lead "miserable" lives that are way below their original expecations, consisting of something like the following:
1. Go to mgmt consulting, where you work your butt off for 2 years as an excel and power point monkey (not much different than corp law here) while traveling to miserable places every week mon-thurs (getting up EVERY monday at 5am to catch a plane is fun). But unlike law, consulting firms have a very rigorous up-or-out system: chances are you'll be asked to leave in 2 years, or certainly at 4 years (very, very few want to or can make it past 4 years). Then, when you do leave, you'll likely get some crap middle-mgmt position at M&T Bank or Citi making 100k or some crap, until you're laid off or outsourced, leaving you as a 40-yo bald loser w/ no job.
2. Or you become an investment banker. Again, you're an excel money for 100+ hrs/week -- the banker who works the least makes wachtell look like slackers. Again, you'll likely be asked to leave in 2 years or less, at which time you'll go work in the corp fnce dept of General Mills making 100k forever.
MAYBE the top 1-2% of bschool grads go into something that might be tolerable -- private equity or hedge funds or the like. Just like maybe the top 1% of law grads land something quasi-decent like a cool litigation boutique (Kellogg, Huber or WilliamsConnolly) or scotus/academia. It's a myth that even the top 10% at wharton/hbs have these fabulous lives/opptys. Ask around -- it's simply not true. And if you think law school students are intolerable d-bags, go hang out with a few hbs kids.
I'm all for standards and making sure that total morons don't become lawyers, but everyone on this blog forgets the universe beyond biglaw. One thing I actually do remember from prof. resp. class is that state bars have an interest in ensuring access to legal services for all citizens. And there just aren't enough good-hearted NYU grads to do all the pro-bono, public defender, write-the-will-for-the-little-old-lady. I come to this site because I work for biglaw, as do many of us on atl. But to suggest that almost half of the law schools in the country should close because it's competitive to get a job at a v100 firm or however you want to measure biglaw, or even phrase it for that matter) is irresponsible. A lot of lawyers hang a shingle and do good work for a local community, or work for a state agency and somehow contribute to some important service. I mean, I'm glad I get paid what I do, and I'm glad I am where I am, but I won't forget where I came from, which is NOT the upper east side. Again, this blog is mostly biglaw topics, and I'm for that, but don't lose perspective. We represent about 3% of the country's clients. Someone has to represent the other 97%, even if they just have landlord issues or have to write a will.
No photocopying balls on this thread?
does it upset anyone else that the guy who made the nervous t-10 1L profile for this site was not the original nervous t-10 1L in the comments?
Agree with the post.
49 - concur 100%. I've hung out with a few HBS dudes. Losers the lot of them. and your descriptions are perfect generalizations.
This blog layout is too goddamn *bright.* So much glaring white. Reading a comment thread makes my eyes ache.
FIRST to admit I failed the Cal bar. Yaee!!
Passed. Most nerve-wracking day in my life. Very sorry to hear about anyone who failed.
40, I am curious about that question as well.
Passed. It's amazing how quickly the nausea went away.
Quit kidding yourselves, ye depresssed v10 associates. There's money aplenty in plaintiff's work. I own a fucking plane. T14 schools are for nerds.
I PASSED THE TOUGHEST BAR EXAM ON THE FIRST TRY. Sorry for anyone who did not pass. I was not sure I was going to pass but I did. Yeah!!!!!!
I AM THE MOTHERFUCKING LAW!!!
60, I'm sorry, but I cannot imagine that a TTT plaintiff's lawyer who owns his own plane is trolling ATL on a Friday night. You're either a liar or... something else, but definitely not cool.
I passed (in 1986)!
Glass Cock = child molester
32, 35 -- at what point did 6 claim it was an original piece of work? Dumbasses.
I get that it is written in the first person, and that must confuse you into thinking the anonymous "I" is claiming to the world that he/she wrote it, but seriously, thank goodness you were there to tell the world that "6" didn't write it. Phew. Didn't want 6 to get all that credit!
- Not 6
61, get over yourself. I passed the CA and NY bars on the first try each and the NY bar was without a doubt the tougher exam.
CA's lower pass rate just means that California force feeds too many affirmative action tards into law schools here.
i can't believe they're letting me be a lawyer.
27 - Your post is so ignorant, it must be flame. But, I'll bite. I'm a biglaw NY associate with NO regrets! And, I genuinely had a terrific experience at Harvard (although I know people that didn't). Unless you are Jeffery "the Dude" Lebowski, someone can always say they "take things by the day" relative to your job. Sure, some biglaw associates are real d-bags that think they're better than everyone else. Find me a profession that doesn't have them. Obviously, there is at least one in yours. I'm happy with my decisions, and give myself an A (A- at worst, assuming the curve is a B/B+). And I know several (certainly not all) associates that would say the same thing. Good for you that you're happy -- I am too.
67 -- stfu and let somebody take some pleasure in passing a tough exam.
They didn't insult anyone else (actually expressed sympathy for anyone who didn't), and was taking pleasure in succeeding. Sure, maybe taking a bit too much pleasure in the "toughest bar exam," but no need for you to pull out your freaking brilliant bar-exam career.
67 -- stfu and let somebody take some pleasure in passing a tough exam.
They didn't insult anyone else (actually expressed sympathy for anyone who didn't pass), and was taking pleasure in succeeding. Sure, maybe taking a bit too much pleasure in the "toughest bar exam," but no need for you to pull out your freaking brilliant bar-exam career.
MYsTTAL, you're way off base. it's the ABA that's screwing everybody. BTDubs, I passed today, jerkface.
highest pass rate in CA since 1997: http://theshark.typepad.com/weblog/2008/11/higher-number-than-average-pass-california-bar-exam.html
What's the 15th ranked school? What makes 14 so much better?
Note that 63 is both trolling ATL on a Friday night and the arbiter of cool.
75 wins! Ahahahaha.
Oh, wait, what the fuck am I doing here Friday night? Damn...
Yes Elie, b/c when YOU went to law school you did it because you ABSOLUTELY KNEW you wanted to be a blogger...
If there is any blame for more lawyers, it is the ABA accrediting more J.D. factories that aren't needed and the greater availability of student loans. Twenty-two year olds were always uncertain about what to do after college, they just didn't have as much of an opportunity to go to a TTT law school as students do now.
every weekend there are peeps trolling atl. someone has to be the arbiter.
50 - Closing tier 3 and 4 schools will not leave 97% of clients in the dark.
There are literally hundreds of graduates being churned out of tier-2 schools with little to no career opportunities. Ever been to jdunderground.com? It's probably the most depressing place on the internet.
Also, who hangs out their own shingle right out of law school? You have to have some experience first, or else you're going to have a hell of a time finding a malpractice insurance carrier.
It should be required that you take the bar exam before law school, that way you will actually have to want to go to law school and work for it first.
how lame do you have to be to profess your passing an exam on an anonymous blog?
um I passed - bank!
seriously, i agree that is one of the la-I PASSED THE CA BAR EXAM
boom goes the dynamite -- I passed!!!
congrats everyone!
*secretly hopes droves of people at big firms in cali don't pass so i can take their (minimal) work this summer after they get fired*
-nervous T-10 1L
email job leads to nervoust101l@yahoo.com
79 - omg, i just went to jdunderground for the first time.... it is the most depressing place on the internet.
I hope to g-d I do OCI for Michigan this year. If I do, I'm going to ask every person I interview for our CA office if s/he is nervout T10 1L. If I get any that I've found the right person, I'm going to cockpunch them as hard as I can. Then toss the resume.
73 - the pass rate is potentially higher this year because people in socal were bumped up for the earthquake. they normalized the scores with norcal - not factoring in that socal scores might have been lower without the earthquake (given what i've heard from friends as to what it was like in the testing center, doesn't seem like it had a significant impact, so this seems very possible).
I'm suprised anyone reads this site anymore with so many posts by Elie. They're awful. But hey, at least this post is devoid of bigoted rhetoric.
Also, as someone who has a JD and a PhD in chemistry, I can say that most lawyers are too stupid to get useful PhDs anyway. So don't bemoan the loss of talent (unless you're talking about me).
I'm suprised anyone reads this site anymore with so many posts by Elie. They're awful. But hey, at least this post is devoid of bigoted rhetoric.
Also, as someone who has a JD and a PhD in chemistry, I can say that most lawyers are too stupid to get useful PhDs anyway. So don't bemoan the loss of talent (unless you're talking about me).
74 is right.
one of the most annoying things about this site is all the people who claim that every school US N+WR ranks below their's is TTT.
schools I've seen called TTT here include: Stanford, NYU, Columbia, UVA, and Northwestern. Yeah, they're real shitholes.
I got multiple NY Big Law offers even though I go to a lowly T-20 school, so STFU 19
87: the problem is that there are at least 3-4 different people running around claiming to be nervous t10 1L. Some of them are more annoying than others.
Then there is his lame ripoffs, like nervous t10 3L and confident CLS 2l. But the worst character of all is "prestigious southerner".
92: spot on.
The original nervous t10 1L entertained me, but ever since he registered he's been running on fumes. He's washed up.
Everyone knows the California bar exam is harder.
As someone who knows many PhDs, I can say that most PhDs are useless.
Go ahead... eat my butthole.
One thing is for sure, the week after Thanksgiving will bring serious layoffs. What we have seen so far is just the beginning.
ELIE. I'm one of the (failed) boycott organizers from back in the day. Whatever you did this time (I dunno, effort, maybe? Giving a shit about the subject matter?) you did it right... Showed real thought instead of trying too hard for the one-liners. Knew there was a reason I voted for you in ATLIdol.
Now just stick with it.
Not a rhetorical question: Who are 14 and 15, and what's the difference?
--74
anyone know the statistics of how accurate the initial pass list is?
Can't believe it, but I passed. I'm guessing the PT and a few essays saved me. I never do good on multiple choice questions and am guessing my MBE performance wasn't all that great.
First time taker but with the economy in the toilet I don't have much hope of getting a job in Patent Law any time soon.
Failed. I can't believe I have to go through this again given the countless hours of preparation and how I was performing on simulated exams.
CA is the hardest bar in the country. A grueling 3 days. Congrats to the people who passed
"Joe the Plumber" jokes aside...the utility of being a plumber or an HVAC technician will beat the utility of being a lawyer any day. Little to no loans, if you have your own business you can make your own hours, everyone is always looking for a plumber or someone to fix their heat/ac, etc. (except for the knuckleheads who pay RoterRooter $100 just to come out and assess their problem).
Suckers who need the glory of having an ESQ after their name or who need the prestige of having the name of three dead guys they never knew on their business card will continue applying to law school (I doubt most apply hoping to be the next Scalia/O'Connor what have you- highly).
Save your future hundreds of thousands of dollars, invest in a plumbing career. You'll always be in demand.
Lawyers and plumbers both shovel shit daily, regardless.
67 has not taken the bar in CA and NY. If he had, he would never ever claim that NY is harder. Without a doubt, CA is: harder, less predictable, more subjective or however you want to call it. Kudos to those who've passed.
105, I've now taken and passed both NY and CA, and I actually agree that NY is harder, at least subject-wise. CA is longer, thus much more exhausting, but the amount of material in NY is broader and much more detailed. Not that that takes anything away from passing either exam, but I do think that you go into NY with a lot more uncertainty regarding your mastery of the material. (That said, the bonus is that the seldom tested subjects really are exactly that: seldom tested.)
agree wtih 106. the number of subjects makes NY much more annoying to study for.
Not a rhetorical question: Who are 14 and 15, and what's the difference?
--74
------------
14 is Georgetown, 15 is Vanderbilt. The reason that the "T-14" term is used to describe the elite schools is that every school in the top 14 has always been in the top 14 . . . they have churned around a little but the top 14 has always been the same schools.
There was also another reason, and that was because the top 14 schools could routinely place some students (not all) from the bottom of their classes into BigLaw. You had to be a real anchorman at one of these schools to not be making market pay, and for some reason schools just outside that range like Vandy, UCLA, and Texas just never seemed to place as well. However, with the recruiting market the way it is, I'm not so sure this reason is valid any longer.
20: Agree, but let's call a spade a spade and cut it off at T14
60: Yes, we can all agree that selling one's soul and being a societal value-destroyer can be quite profitable. Kind of wish you'd gone into organized drug trafficking instead, however, so that it wouldn't have such a dramatic effect on legitimate businesses and the US economy as a whole. Perhaps consider that career alternative--do it for your country, hmmm?
108, the reasoning I've been given is a little different. Vanderbilt or Texas could pass GULC and the T14 would still be what it is today. The top 14 is simply the only 14 schools that have ever been ranking in the Top 10 by US News.
106 - You can pass NY almost exclusively on strength of your MBE and write pretty much anything on the essay/PT part (as long as you don't vomit onto your answer booklets). In CA, you need to put together six fairly coherent essays, pass a speed-writing contest on the PT's AND do well on the very same MBE that people are facing in NY -- much harder. I took NY in Albany as an out-of-stater, half the people were LL.M.'s with limited language skills and severe problems of answering 200 questions in 6 hours. Given that, I was actually surprised that the passing rate is as high as it is.
Thanks, 110. Sounds like a nonsense distinction. The idea that people from the bottom the class at NYU or Georgetown are headed straight to the top is ludicrous. Both schools take nearly 100 transfers a year. That mightily dilutes those precious degrees.
Also, you write really awkward sentences. Did you pick that up at a T14 school, or did you already have that skill going into law school?
111: Now I understand where you're coming from - the Albany test site is your sample measure, eh? Shame you couldn't have joined the more representative NY horde at the oh-so-lovely Javits Center.
Nothing beats the SF/Bay Area Cow Palace. It actually smells like caddle.
112, 110 is correct but he didn't mention anything about bottom of the class going straight to the top. He simply stated that the Top 14 are the only schools that have previously been ranked in the Top 10.
He wasn't been rude to you there is no need to be rude to him. Why are these boards filled with so many snarky comments as of late.
Bingham 100% pass :.)
Why do some people like 111 not realize that they are total d-bags for undercutting a foreigner studying in the US and sitting for the NY bar? Hey, genius - bs us some more after you get an LLM from a non-English speaking country and pass its bar exam.
Wow 112, you're going to bash on one of the very few people I've ever seen in these forums who actually took time to answer a newbie's stujpid question?? You stay classy out there.
In other news, I PASSED!!!
And I have to say, CA was much MUCH harder than the other bar exam I took...which was NOT NY.
(p.s. sorry for typos and grammar mistakes for all the judgementals out there, I'm typing this flat on my back from HANGOVER palace!!! :-)
Why do some people like 111 not realize that they are total d-bags for undercutting a foreigner studying in the US and sitting for the NY bar? Hey, genius - bs us some more after you get an LLM from a non-English speaking country and pass its bar exam (not).
Haha, congrats 118
Sorry guys, NY is definitely harder. The Mini-Review book is more than twice as thick (twice as many subjects, plus state-specific distinctions in all of the Big 6). There's a multiple-choice section that just tests the distinctions, meaning that you actually have to study them. Sure, CA is 3 days, but half of the essay time is spent on MPTs that you don't have to study for. Plus, 3 days in LA, SD, SF or Ontario does not equal 2 days in Albany. Albany is ghastly, I didn't even feel safe walking arond that place in a group in broad daylight. As for the discrepancy in passage rates? NOT ALL APPLICANT POOLS ARE CREATED EQUAL.
-Suck it Trebek.
106 here. 121 is right. I have to say that I loved having two PTs because it allowed for a relatively easy way to grab points. Also, 111, not true about the NY essays. If you kill the MBE, maybe, but you can't just blow off the essays. Also, in CA, you have six essays, which gives you more chances to get points than the four essays in NY.
Bottom line is neither test is easy, and people should be damn proud to pass either one. I just happen to think that preparing for NY is harder.
106, 122,
What about the Delaware bar? I think it's 4 complete days now, not counting the 1/2 day for the MEE. For sheer annoyance, I think it's the winner.
NY gets extra points for making you go to Albany (Albany WTF?) if you don't live and/or work in NY. I took it in February. Born and raised 100 miles north of Chicago, stationed in Alaska for 2 years, and with an offer letter from a NY firm on firm stationary, they would not let me change my exam site and I had to travel to Albany and take the exam, where I froze my left nut off. It was colder there then Alaska!
DE has its own bar exam?
I passed in CA, but likely only because everyone in my room at my test center got 1 extra point added to their score. Some rooms at some test centers got as many as 5 points added to their score.
Thank God for earthquakes!
89-90, all that education but not the sense to avoid a double post.
Ignorant fuck.
125 - yeah, those people who got 5 points took the test in San Diego, which was barely affected by the earthquake.
I've taken both NY and CA (last year) and I agree that they are both difficult. That said, while this may anger my cohorts in NYC... I thought CA was significantly more challenging. Yes, NYC is broad but CA's was both broad and required more depth. I imagine this will continue to be the case with the addition of CA reqs for Evidence and Civ Pro... congrats to all and good luck for those who will pass on their second shot.
board certified OB/GYN here. 12y. no lawsuits. YET.
my day is coming, of course......like a freight train head-on.......with ever more bottom-feeders looking for more.......um......bottom food. i read this with great fear.
but, i must say, at the same time, i am a little misty.
117 - Because I was actually one of those foreigners and saw 40% of my fellow T-10 LL.M.'s fail the exam. Appreciate your attempt at political correctness and I'm not undercutting anyone. Just facts are facts: ESLers' passing rates are lower than those of native speakers.
california's bar passage rate is lower because it is one of the few states that does not require graduation from an accredited law school to take the bar exam.
131 is correct. It's also due to the high number of retakers, most of which, based on statistics, have a slim to nil chance of passing. The overall 60% figure makes people understandably nervous, but the first-time 75% figure? If you're in the bottom quarter of test takers, you don't really have the right to complain.
If anything, the profession might be better off if bar exam pass rates are lowered, the ABA unaccredits the bottom tier of schools, and / or CA requires graduation from an ABA-accredited school to sit for the exam.
I love how all these idiots rely on anecdotal evidence to claim that one exam is objectively harder than the other.
There's no way to tell, but the closest thing to reliable statistics are the school passage rates of the different bars. Virtually every school has a higher NY pass rate than CA pass rate.
The idea that the smartest people of each and every school take NY and not CA (resulting in different applicant pools) is laughable at best.
If you have to resort to qualifications you pull out of your ass to make your point, your point is probably not all that strong.
131, NY does not require graduation from an accredited law school to take the bar exam either. NY also has the highest number of foreign lawyers taking the exam.
As others have said, CA allows non-ABA graduates to take the exam but the bar does break its test results down by those areas. Of the ABA-accredited graduates, the CA pass rate is similar to other states. It's the non-ABA-accredited graduates (including CA-accredited, non-accredited, online, and apprentice) who pull the pass rate down.
I would imagine that if NY breaks down its test-takers, you'd get similar results.
135 is basically right. The only thing I'd add is that most people I know that have taken both exams say that California is a bit harder, mainly because the test is so damn exhausting (3 days vs. 2).
Another argument I've heard is that for the folks who don't do so well on the MBE the New York bar is easier. Basic idea is that if you do pretty well (say 150+) on the MBE, you're very likely to pass NY but that's not necessarily the case with the CA exam.
Have no idea whether that's true - only qualified in CA and so have no idea about how the NY exam is scored.
Sorry, edit above:
"for the folks who do well on the MBE the New York bar is easier" . . . in the sense that a pass is more likely
1) The fact that NY tests more subjects does not mean it is harder. I friend of mine who failed the CA exam last time, studied for the NY using the CA material and she passed -- meaning you don't have to know much of any of those subjects, as long as you nail the MBE (btw, she had a higher MBE score when she took the CA exam and, still, that was no enough to pass...). Compare each school's passing rate for NY and CA and you'll see the answer.
2) I am an LLM and all my LLM friends who took the exam in NY passed. Find out how many LLMs pass the CA bar. Oh, I DID...
3) And please stop insisting on saying how hard it is to be a lawyer in the US. Passing the exam was very hard for me, but I guess this was more due to the language barrier, because the fact is that in two months I could learn what you learn in three years.
138-
"3) And please stop insisting on saying how hard it is to be a lawyer in the US. Passing the exam was very hard for me, but I guess this was more due to the language barrier, because the fact is that in two months I could learn what you learn in three years."
You had law school training before studying for the exam, just like US students.
You learned what you needed to pass the exam in two months, just like US students.
If you read this board at all regularly, you know that US law schools do not necessarily design their curriculum for bar exams. Some do, sure, but not all. There were several subjects on the exam that I had never taken.
Some average salaries for the discussion:
Attorney I 25th%ile Median 75th%ile
the United States $75,027 $87,727 $101,987
Plumber I 25th%ile Median 75th%ile
the United States $32,703 $37,514 $44,281
Physician - Generalist 25th%ile Median 75th%ile
the United States $125,704 $145,427 $166,298
Teacher Elementary School 25th%ile Median 75th%ile
the United States $40,453 $49,384 $58,574
Accountant I 25th%ile Median 75th%ile
the United States $37,045 $40,751 $45,082
Electrical Engineer I 25th%ile Median 75th%ile
the United States $52,011 $56,831 $61,890
Physicians are overpaid. I have no basis for that I just hate doctors.
Which firms lead the market in severance packages?
140 - those are not figures for elite members of the profession. physicians can be considered "elite" because of the way the ama licenses them. a starting EE at a top valley shop makes almost six figures. a starting accountant at a big four shop makes 60k start.
starting accountant at a big4 firm straight out of undergrad makes closer to 50k than 60k
Passed the CA bar in July 2006, never taken NY, no intention of living in NY, don't give a damn which bar is harder. Honestly, people. Does it make your dick/boobs bigger to be able to say, "I passed the hardest bar in the country"...? Seriously. If you want to have the option to live in both states, then take both. Otherwise, pass the relevant one, practice law, and find better things to do with your time arguing whether the bar you took is harder than some other bar you have no interest in taking.
What are dickboobs?
Along with a few thousand others, many of whom are probably ATL readers, I slogged through three years of law school, two and a half months of Bar/bri, three days of an exam, then waited three and a half months for the result and this is the best attempt at congratulating us you've got? Seriously, I don't expect fireworks, but something more than "Fucking hell, here's a new batch of lawyers, wtf" would have been nice.
147 --- Yes!
Aww.
Congrats 147 and 148!
# 44:
what do you call 3 michigan alums sitting across the table from an osu alum?]
trembling little bitches
T. Pryor is the motherf*****g truth.
89-Agree wholeheartedly. My freshman year in engineering alone was more challenging and presented more difficult concepts than my entire law school education. The PhD went miles beyond that. The fact that a JD is an 'advanced' degree is a joke. I guess it's accepted because it is a 'professional' degree.
95-Riiiight. A PhD is directly useful and/or opens many doors that having a measly JD doesn't. A JD with a paltry economics/poli sci/communications/liberal arts(!) degree, even from a decent school, makes you pretty damned fungible. The JD is the new MBA--pretty paper on the wall, but by itself it won't get you where you want to be.
Doctors and nurses limit the amount of incoming competition. Our profession just is not that smart. And it affects the lower end of the foodchain a lot more than biglaw.
6 is the type of person who enjoys hazing people. What a complete dickhead and liar.