A Winter of Discontent for Clerks:
Wiley Rein ‘Cold Offers’ Judicial Clerks
In late October, we received this question from a federal clerk:
To date, I’ve seen at least six posts in a series ATL has been doing about firms rescinding unaccepted summer associate offers to 2L’s due to oversubscription of the summer class. I would be interested to know whether firms are actually, or at least contemplating, rescinding unaccepted offers for full-time associate positions that were being held open for former summer associates that are doing judicial clerkships this year?I have an offer from a biglaw firm and was assured (albeit almost one year ago) that my offer would be held open until I had completed my clerkship and could formally accept. Needless to say, I am getting more than a bit nervous about whether my job will still be waiting for me come September ‘09.
At the time, we told the questioner that we hadn’t heard anything like that from any major law firm during this recruiting cycle. Nobody’s going to rescind offers to clerks!
We thought.
We hoped.
Yesterday, we had a couple of interesting conversations with folks over at Wiley Rein. We now believe that the chair of Wiley Rein’s recruiting committee placed a number of phone calls over the weekend to current judicial clerks. The recruiting coordinator was careful to say that Wiley was not “rescinding” offers, but that the clerks should seriously consider looking at other options for full-time employment when their clerkships are up.
More details after the jump.
As we understand it, most of the phone calls were made to clerks who had summered with Wiley in 2007. Obviously, many clerks do not “formally” accept offers with law firms, at the request of the judge they are clerking for. But those acceptances usually are a mere formality.
Nearly a year ago, we reported on a possible softening in the market for clerks:
[T]here’s anecdotal evidence suggesting that the Biglaw job market for judicial law clerks — usually highly sought after by firms, and wooed with ever-increasing clerkship bonuses — may be softening.
Back then, a tipster reported:
My former firm recently informed me that they would not hire me when my clerkship ends in August. I spent one year in the New York office of a large national firm upon graduation, and am currently a district court clerk in Boston. I had kept in touch with various partners at the firm over the past few months, thinking I would return.But when I asked about rejoining the firm in January, I was told by the head of litigation that they would not be hiring associates in “my position” seven months hence. So much for loyalty!
So much for a “one-off random occurrence in February,” as we previously thought.
Wiley Rein declined to comment for this story.
But in August, we reported that Wiley Rein had made offers to a large percentage of their 2008 summer class:
The firm’s 2008 summer class was oversubscribed, but only four summer associates paid the price. We’d been hearing reports that Wiley gave offers to 34 out of 38 SAs, and the firm has now confirmed the news.
In that story we noted that Wiley had hoped to make only 25 offers, not 34. Perhaps they decided to make up the difference by pushing out 2007 summers away on clerkships?
Obviously, clerks that have been encouraged to look elsewhere are unhappy. One tipster managed to make it through an entire paragraph without cursing:
At the very least, they treated me very poorly. It would have been one thing if they had simply told me off the bat that they weren’t sure that they would have any openings. But emails and phone calls with the firm made it clear that they not only had openings when my clerkship finished, but that I was invited to join them. Having my offer rescinded so abruptly has really thrown me for a loop, particularly given the state of the economy. I thought I’d have a safe place to land when my clerkship ends, but now I have to start my job search anew…
Is Wiley Rein an outlier or an early-adopter?
Clerks, once you get off the phone with your law firm recruiting contacts, please share your stories with us. “A Winter of Discontent for Clerks: Part II” is sure to follow.
Earlier: Clerks in Paradise? Maybe Not When It Comes To Hiring
Nationwide No Offer Watch: Wiley Rein




Comments
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Oh nose!!!
When I am done at SCOTUS I might not have a job?
Wait is this post for people who have legitimate clerk positions?
speaking of judges, there is a panel today at michigan about working for a judge 1L summer, is this a good option?
which would be a better experience, district or circuit?
*crosses fingers that i'll just get a firm job 1L summer and i won't have to worry about this*
-nervous T-10 1L
email job leads to nervoust101l@yahoo.com
I didn't know that Trig Palin was a 1L!
Please tell me nervous 1L does not go to Univ. of Michigan Law School. For the love of everything holy, please tell me he/she goes to Ave Maria or Wayne State or (most likely) Cooley. Otherwise, I am prepared to flush my UM law degree down the toilet.
Can someone please help me? I have this really bad rash in my crotch area and I am not sure if its an STD or simply a result of bad hygiene. If someone is interested in helping me, please send me an email (see below)
-nervous T-10 1L
email job leads to nervoust101l@yahoo.com
first...
ha ha ha ha ha ha. Should have just taken the job when you had the chance. Fuck clerking, get that paycheck.
Why do judges care about clerks accepting firm offers?
I worked there as a paralegal and the place is a complete TTT. The people in the actual recruiting department are nice and really care about treating people correctly. The people on the recruiting committee (especially the chair), however, are complete resume snobs who could care less about screwing someone over like this. If things have gotten this bad with Dick Wiley still around, I wonder what will happen when he finally retires? Avoid this place at all costs.
6 = fail
Everyone in Texas has aids.
11 = fail.
Doing this to clerks is really shitty.
Since when should "prestige," "self-improvement," and lofty academic yearnings trump actual on the ground work experience when being selected for a job.
Oh shit.
Lets Hope Bankruptcy Clerks can get good offers. Anybody know if these guys will be in demand?
11: Huh?
Why does anyone choose a district court clerkship over a law firm job out of law school? The clerkship bonus doesn't make up for the money lost. It's not Prestige elevating unless you go straight to a COA.
8: Judges care because under the rules of professional conduct for judges and clerks, a clerk MUST recuse themselves on all matter in which he or she has already accepted a permanent offer. If you are clerking somewhere like SDNY and certain firms appear before the judge ALL the time, then the judge is going to get pissed that the clerk can't work on any cases where that firm is a party. However, if there is just a wink and a nod that you can come back after your clerkship but no formal offer is taken, then the clerk can continue to work on the case where the firm is a party. It's up to the discretion of the judge whether the clerk can accept the offer before the clerkship. The judge I am working for said my co-clerk and I can accept offers bc it's a state supreme court and there are not certain firms that appear all the time, and if the firm where an offer was accepted does appear, then the clerk just doesn't work on that matter.
7 = yes, that's a VERY smart move. I'm sure that all of the peers that accepted their offers rather than clerking are having the time of their life at Wiley Rein! I'm sure that Wiley doesn't want the clerks back, in fact, because their first-year associates who didn't clerk are doing such a good job!
. . . Dullard.
( . ) ( . )
16...once you get past your first semester of law school, the answer might become clearer to you.
I have a friend who graduated magna from a T6, law review, two amazing federal clerkships, very likeable and nice - and he still can't get a job.
What the hell are the rest of us supposed to do?
Wiley kinda screwed the pooch on this one, huh?
6=11=demon spawn of a Hofstra-GULC.
Is that a picture of Mystal's head?
Could it be? The elite federal law clerks get dinged?
Does anyone have any thoughts on what the market is going to be like for clerks with a few years of litigation experience before they clerked? i.e., mid-level litigation laterals
Is it true that Davis Polk called for a meeting with a few associates in order to......????
no it's not.
no it's not.
21, your friend must have had a brick dropped on his head between interviews for federal clerkships and interviews at firms, especially if he is interviewing for a litigation position. Tell him to interview at Paul Weiss-they are still hiring here. New litigators join every other month practically
MysTTTal
I believe the correct response to this post is...
Cry me a Fucking River.
Fed law clerk here,
Sooooooooo glad I accepted the DOJ (honors baby!) offer a few weeks ago, rather than wait for the firms to come calling in Nov/Dec.
~Set for life.
P.s. Good looking out on this one god.
What is the clerkship bonus at biglaw for USCOA these days?
I split my 2L summer and will be clerking next year . . . is it standard to keep both offers "open?"
If so, how do I get a firm to pay for my bar expenses? Or will the one I ultimately choose just have to reimburse me?
16 -- COA clerkships are more "prestige elevating" in two circumstances: (1) you plan to go into academia; (2) you want to practice appellate litigation. For the other 95% of us going into BIGLAW, a district court clerkship will provide more practical experience. Sure the writing experience you get on a COA may involve more substantive, in-depth analysis than the writing you'll do clerking for a district judge. But unless you're going into academia or appellate litigation, that is irrelevant. Big firms want young associates to review docs and be familiar with rudimentary court procedures. Maybe, if you're lucky, you'll get to draft a motion for summary judgment or to dismiss. The doc review -- well no clerkship is going to make you any better at that. But everything else -- understanding the procedural flow of litigation and writing for a trial court -- involves skills honed while clerking for a district judge. If you talk to enough partners (maybe after they've had enough drinks in them to lower their guard and speak with a certain degree of unrestrained honesty), you'll find out that notwithstanding the perceived "prestige level" of clerking, many place no value at all in clerkships, and those who do value district court clerkships more highly than COA clerkships in private practice.
I can't wait for them to cancel clerkship bonuses. Take the job or take a hike.
-Junior Partner
For the clerk who got no-offered, I would advise that person to contact the partners that he or she maintained contact with and advise them of the situation and see what happens. Sometimes the hiring committee is not the last word on hires.
However, due to the economy, this may have changed, but that's what I would do.
16, could it be that some people enjoy the experience of being a district court clerk, and couldn't care less about money or "prestige"?
Once you finish your first semester of 1L year, you'll understand. If not, I look forward to when you die alone at age 50 and are buried with your money (in the form of gold bricks). I'm sure all that money- and prestige-chasing would have been worth it.
16 - You're forgetting that not all COAs are alike. I think a clerkship at S.D.N.Y. or N.D. Cal. is more prestigious than clerking on the 5th circuit. But maybe I'm just hating on the flyover states.
37 = rejected by hundreds of judges 10 years ago and still bitter
-i'm nervous about my prospects for a judicial clerkship now that i have decided to convert to homosexuality
-nervous T-10 1L
email job leads to nervoust101l@yahoo.com
42 -- At least you can get legally married in CT! Yay!!
I will begin a district court clerkship next fall and the firm I worked at this summer gave me an emphatic "yes" when I asked whether I'd still have a job after clerking. This kind of stuff only makes me more uncertain.
42,
I would advise on focusing judges who are openly gay for clerkship positions. Flouncing around in the chambers of a conservative judge is not a career enhancing move.
42, you should also try to convert to being black. Race, after all, is just a social construct and has no biological or genetic basis, according to the liberals.
Anyone who gets a Federal District Court clerkship should just take it.
Even if somehow your original firm offer were rescinded, you will always be able to find something at a good firm somewhere. Its too awesome of a credential to pass up. Seriously, you will be fine.
And no, I didn't clerk.
Re # 38, I think that is good advice, but I would only do that if you could not land a position you are happy with at some other firm, or if you have very strong support of the partners you met during your summer (unlikely considering the typical summer associate experience).
If you do go back to that firm, down the road, it may be tough to be the associate (re)hired against the express wishes of partners on the hiring committee . . . sometimes partners can be irrationally vindictive.
- Current district court clerk, former litigation associate
44, I'm one of the current law clerks who got cold offered by Wiley and they told me the same thing.
Could Elie be making it three days in a row of quality posts?
48,
Yes, it all depends on how badly the clerk wants to work for the firm. If that person has other options, then I wouldn't bother, although, of course, I would keep in touch with the partners I worked with (one never knows when those contacts might come in handy). But if I'm desperate for jobs, I'd contact those partners.
All I am saying is keep your options open and yes, clerkship is a great experience and a career enhancer.
But if you blew off your partners on the assumption that a position was available after your clerkship, then you deserve a world of pain. Good social skills means networking and that really is a plus for associates.
If you plan to do litigation, a federal district court clerkship is the way to go.
A federal clerkship, law review, and where you went to school are the three credentials that follow you around the rest of your life.
State court clerkships are another story. Most big firms prefer federal district court clerkships to state supreme court clerkships. A notable exception is Delaware.
Never thought I'd be prone to post here, but the posts by "Nervous T10 1L" drive me insane. Go to the library where you belong.
40 - you are hating on the flyover states
38/51, Agreed. I was just considering how office politics can affect quality of life at the firm and partnership track.
- 48
Law students should know that federal clerkships are harder to get than just about any other job you could land. If you aren't going to graduate with honors or you don't have significant responsibilities on your school's *law review*, don't bother applying.
50, depends on what you define as "quality". If you define quality having relevance to something that the ATL audience is obviously interested in, then yes. If you define quality as excellent writing skills plus any sense of humor at all, then an emphatic NO.
Chuck Norris hires federal clerks all the time.
I have to say, I'm more amused by the people who are irritated to the point of punching themselves in the face by Nervous T10 1L than I am amused by his posts themselves.
Either way though, keep posting T10 1L, I definitely knew people like you(r construct) back in the "good ol' days" of law school.
What do people think about people who have just accpeted a clerkship for 2009-2010. Its probably a little early, but is the general consensus that by Sept. 2010, things will be picking back up such that the positions will be still there for clerks.
Plus, I figured that I would be helping my firm by not showing up this fall (granted my V-10) firm is actually diong just fine anyway right now, but still.....
*nervously slathering myself in butter and garlic to entice Mystal in hopes of gaining employment this summer...
-nervous T-10 1L
email job leads to nervoust101l@yahoo.com
50, depends on what you define as "quality". If you define quality having relevance to something that the ATL audience is obviously interested in, then yes. If you define quality as excellent writing skills plus any sense of humor at all, then an emphatic NO.
60--with great punctuation like "by not showing up this fall (granted my V-10) firm," which doesn't make sense, and great spelling like "diong," I'm sure they'll be happy for you to wait a year to show up for work. Maybe you can work on those things in the interim.
63 = insecure 2nd tier journal editor who got dinged by 40 federal judges
a typo ≠ poor spelling, particularly on an Internet message board
A lot of the posters here need to take on a clerkship or two after law school to work on their obviously inadequate social skills and atrocious grammar usage.
And posing as a nervous t-10 1L is de facto evidence of subpar social skills. Just remember not to pick your nose in public.
~In House Counsel (was COA-9 way back in the 90s)
to 49 and others in similar situations, if you have a good relationship with your judge, bring the situation to his/her attention -- i haven't met a federal judge who wouldn't help his/her law clerks find a great job post-clerkship - some will even make a few key phone calls on your behalf, and no smart partner will turn down the opportunity to do a "favor" for a judge unless their law firm really is in the cr**er
I think I just stepped in some Skattten and a little bit of Flom.
Damn it.
Thanks 63,
Im sure my firm judges my work product by looking at what i post on blogs, so you are probably right.
I usually take my real work just as seriously as a blog comment.
No problem, 68. Say hi to your mother for me.
I am a 3-L at a T-10, and have the option to do either a one-year federal district clerkship starting in Fall 2009 for a two-year clerkship (also starting in Fall 2009). Which would you do? Do you think in light of the economic situation it's better to have two years worth of job security?
If I decide to do the clerkship for 2 years, when should I start contacting bigfirms about job openings? What about the Department of Justice (such as the Honor Program). Thanks.
I am a 3-L at a T-10, and have the option to do either a one-year federal district clerkship starting in Fall 2009 for a two-year clerkship (also starting in Fall 2009). Which would you do? Do you think in light of the economic situation it's better to have two years worth of job security?
If I decide to do the clerkship for 2 years, when should I start contacting bigfirms about job openings? What about the Department of Justice (such as the Honor Program). Thanks.
Wiley Rein? Who the fuck are they? Let's just shorten their name to 'Whine' and be done with it. And order up some extra towels for the crybaby pampered clerks who think they somehow pocketed a golden ticket to a cash-cow legal career. Joke's on you!
66,
You are right. A lot of judges have connections, even if it is only their old law firm.
It is also possible that if you are unable to find jobs, you might be able to switch to another judge or work for the Court at large temporarily.
Courts and judges have this notion that unemployed clerks reflect badly on them. Use that perception.
Well done 63,69
You really stung me with that comment, I commend you and must retire from the field
you clearly have me outmatched
70-71
I would definitely take the two year clerkship. The market is going from bad to worse.
I don't know, however, what steps you could take afterwards although the DOJ is highly competitive.
70: I've gotten conflicting advice about when to start looking for jobs, most of it prior to the economy going bust. The official position from most firms that I've talked to is apply whenever you want. They'll never turn down the opportunity to look at a candidate with clerkship experience, especially at the federal level.
That said, the consensus from peers is not to worry about it until mid-December/January. Most SA offers will have been accepted/rejected by that point so firms will have a much better sense of their upcoming needs. Anecdotal evidence suggests that applying before that risks being lost in the pre-holiday chaos. Plus, by that point you'll have had some face time with the judge so s/he is more willing to be a reference.
The DOJ Honors website tells you when you should apply if you have a one or two year clerkship.
If Wiley would just admit that many of those 34 who received offers were actually cold-offered, then maybe this new round of cold-offering would be a lot less shocking. It's one thing to try to prevent rumors by misrepresenting how many people received offers to return (much closer to half than 34/38), but doesn't this prove we're way past just rumors now?
There is always a lot of work for Texas AIDS lawyers.
This is 70 again. 76, so it's best not to make contact with big firms right now (during my 3L year)? I go to school in a big market.
If I do a two-year clerkship, are you saying that I should not contact law firms until the January of my second year?
70- I agree with the comment about taking two year clerkship for sure. Who knows where the economy will be then but it seems that the legal market may be dry for the next couple of years as we have seen just the beginning of hiring slowdown. Plus, with two years, you may be able to see and work on more trials. I would apply during the the second year of your clerkship to any position, but keep in mind that DOJ Honors and other federal agencies may have early Fall deadlines for the upcoming year.
70- I agree with the comment about taking two year clerkship for sure. Who knows where the economy will be then but it seems that the legal market may be dry for the next couple of years as we have seen just the beginning of hiring slowdown. Plus, with two years, you may be able to see and work on more trials. I would apply during the the second year of your clerkship to any position, but keep in mind that DOJ Honors and other federal agencies may have early Fall deadlines for the upcoming year.
76 here. Don't worry about applying now. Go with the two year clerkship (but remember you have to accept the offer of the first judge whose call you answer) and relax the rest of the year. Worry about looking for firm jobs during the winter of the second year of your clerkship.
As for the DOJ, you'll probably apply during the early fall of your second year.
77, I would be interested to hear more about Wiley making cold offers to the summer class of 2008. I was under the apparently false impression that the 34 who received offers had legitimate offers. I would not be too surprised if those offers dried up pretty quickly as the fall went on, however. My contacts at the firm haven't mentioned anything about this, but I also didn't know to ask about it.
-49
MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal MysTTTal
There is a difference between having an offer "rescinded" - as the tipster indicates - and being told frankly about the amount of work available in this "TTT" economy. It's really more humane than anything to be honest about such things.
Wiley = pathetic. Blackberry made them think they are hot shit, oh wells.
I know for a fact that Wiley did not "cold offer" any of the 34 Summers. It is also the case that they were expecting that at least 10 of those 34 were not planning on going back. Perhaps less than 10 actually went elsewhere (clerking/other city, etc.) so they were forced to rescind post-clerkship offers.
Regardless, I'm sure that they were not excited to not be able to make room for former clerks
Request for Clarification: Are people heading to federal clerkships and formally accepting their offers (rather than leaving them open) and then having the firms renege? Or is it just people who leave the offers open (but unaccepted) who are losing the jobs?
It doesn't sound like the offers were rescinded. I agree with 85 that they were just being honest with the clerks. It sounds like the clerks can still accept, but they now know that they may want to consider other options as well. Isn't that better than not saying anything and allowing them to pass on other good opportunities?
Any clerks out there with good news? I know it's early in the hiring season, but I'm curious to hear if anyone has offers, interviews, etc. yet?
Or am I being too optimistic?