Guess they couldn't roll with the big boys.

Milbank = TTT.

lockstep =/= good deal for the valuable

lockstep = good deal for the slackers

kill lockstep now and forever - law is about competition

I'm getting a HUGE BONI waiting for S&C!

Can't hardly wait.

1 and 3 = under-the-bridge-dwelling TTThirsty trolls

S&C where are you??

I billed ~1200 hours so far this year...I love lockstep!!!

Hoe does this compare to the bonuses at Old Weird Harold?

Come on S&C and Weil. Sitting on the sidelines is going to hurt the associates at the other V-25 firms who could go Skadden route, but want to go Cravath b/c everyone else is doing it.

If S&C and Weil come out in a week or two and match Skadden I'm going to be pissed. I think that is what they are setting up to do after all of the other firms announce they are following Cravath. Maybe they are giving a wink-wink to other firms saying you guys might want to announce this week before we do.

They will also reap greater benefits in recruiting if they do this (by letting as many firms follow Cravath as possible before announcing they are matching Skadden). Smart play, but hurts the rest of us whose firms haven't announced yet. Who knows, maybe they will follow Cravath too, but I think it has been too long for these two firms to have been sitting on the sidelines.

2 - they are matching all the "big boys", so what are you on about?

4 - the few "slacker-oriented" lockstep firms seem to be doing ok in the legal profession: Sullivan, Davis Polk, Cravath, Cleary, Debevoise, etc.

Poopin in a hat.

S&C, you're our only hope.

Another NYC 2nd tier shop that can't play at the Skadden / Orrick / MoFo market level.

10 - I Milbanked your mom last night. HTH

Is Milbank lockstep? Or is there a minimum hours requirement? Lat, you should make this clear in the post.

10, agreed. I'm voitng S&C 98 in Vault right before Cravath at 99 if they announce they are matching Skadden after all of the other top firms have followed Cravath.

S&C and Weil haven't announced yet because, get this... wait for it..... here it comes..... they haven't announced yet. that's it. that's all. firms announce when the announce. partners have a lot more shit to do than strategize about bonuses right now. S&C and Weil could give a fuck about recruiting. No matter what bonuses are this year, law students around the country will continue to DROOL over WLRK, Cravath, S&C, DPW, Skadden .... and will go to a any of those firms that give them a job. Why? Because no matter what happens in one shitty year, they are the best firms. That's it. You are a FOOL if you think any of these firms put that much thought into recruiting strategy. YOU want THEM. They don't need you, because there a ton of qualified candidates who will fill your spot.

8: it's great until you get fired, which with hours like that will happen soon.

Guys at my high school use to Milbank 10's mom all the time, it was no big deal.

10 - wishful thinking.

19 - spot on. This is no time to be gloating over lack of work.

Milbank is lockstep. No hours requirement.

Hey 13, you are a JOKE to think that Orrick and MoFo should be in the same league as Skadden. Orrick layed off people you dickhead, they are a shit firm with hours based bonuses that none of their second-rate associates are going to make. Same goes about MoFo. If you even think that Orrick and MoFo are even close to the same league as CSM, S&C, Cleary, V10 you are just sad. Skadden is. And Skadden is paying better than market to many of their associates, the many that will make hour requirements. But some won't. Skadden is the one that looks good here. But no longer do any of the firms that matched Cravath, Cravath included, look bad. That's it. It's over.

10, you seem to be under this impression that firm decisionmakers (i.e., the partners) want to help associates financially and are concerned about "hurting" associates.

You should know that, how should I put this, the financial views of partners and associates concerning compensation are diametrically opposed. No firm cares about recruiting right now when people are desperate to get hired anywhere, and in 2013 no one will care that Skadden (who will learn to not pay more than everyone else starting in 2009) paid more in bonuses once five years ago.

16 - Milbank has no billable hours requirement. Seems that those who did above and beyond their share of hours will get that discretionary "special" bonus mentioned in the memo.

#18 has obviously been on a recruiting or associates committee. All of the top 10 firms literally panic over the prospect of not getting the pick of the crop (as irrational as it may be).

#18 has obviously never been on a recruiting or associates committee. All of the top 10 firms literally panic over the prospect of not getting the pick of the crop (as irrational as it may be).

19 - maybe but until then, I'm enjoying it. Not my fault anyway...shiTTTy partners don't bring in any work in my group...

Neither S&C nor Weil is matching Skadden.

All this talk about Cravath to 99! S&C to 98!! just make me laugh so much. These are the same retards who say they don't care about prestige blah blah blah. You honeslty think Cravath, S&C or any top firms cares about what you vote them to on a vault ranking. No matter what, they will be the top firms, because CLIENTS go to them. Vault is a joke. It is just a reflection of perception. And if Vault notices that firms like Cravath or S&C are getting bad votes because of this whole bonus fiasco, they will probably not use outlier results in their formulations.

18 is sorta right. It's all about supply and demand. There are way too many attorneys and law schools. At the same time we have fewer matters requiring traditional legal services. Eventually, I would imagine the facade of Skadden, et al. will fade too.

27 are you being serious. If you are , then whatever recruiting or associates committee you were on was NOT at a V10, and if it was, then I feel sorry for your firm's low self esteem, but what I wrote was the simple truth. The top firms will get the pick of the crop NO matter what. They do year in and year out. It basically goes if you get Wachtell, you go there. If You don't but get Cravath or S&C, you go to either of those, most likely Cravath. If You don't get any of those, but DPW, you go to DPW. Then Skadden, Cleary, Weil and Debevoise fall in line. They get the rest. That's all.

At the same time we have fewer matters requiring traditional legal services.

?

26 - wrong...there is no discretionary bonus for going above ad beyond at Milbank. All lockstep. "Specials" in the memo is a reference to associates in their 9th year or above who have special compensation arrangements with the firm.

18, not true. why do they spend so much money on recruiting then if they do not care? Recruiting is vital to any firm. When you have a bad recruiting class at a firm it shows. Yes, law students will continue to drool over those firms you list, but what makes people want to go to Wachtell over Cravath and S&C? It sure isn't the quality of life and the prestige is about the same. Money can be the game changer in this competitive recruiting environment. If S&C could poach 10-20 students that would have gone to a competitor, but not for the increase in bonus they would have gained a lot - trust me (b/c the students we are talking about are the tops of their class at USNWR Top 5 schools).

Again, what about the purely litigation shops like Quinn Emmanuel and Kasowitz Benson? Will they just fall in line, even though it's been a breakout year for these shops?

Subtle blogslap by David Lat to Eli Mystal by refusing to use "half Skadden"

next step: firing?

36, recruiting is only vital when the firm does not have enough associates to do all the work, i.e., in years 2003-2007. See, when supply > demand, i.e., in 2008-201?, recruiting is not so important.

36,
They spend so much on recruiting because that is how it evolved, and now that is what they have to do to keep the status quo. Recruiting IS vital to any firm, but their bonus consideration in this ONE BAD year is NOT. Are you kidding me? You think people drool over these firms because of the money. You are misinformed. Students drool over these firms BECAUSE OF the prestige. If you cared about money you would work at a V25 and below where you ACTUALLY make more money per hour making the same amount per year because you work less. People DO NOT go to V10 for the money, because on an hour per hour basis, you don't make money. You go there for the prestige and exit opportunities

in 2002, cravath also paid half-bonuses from the previous year. people were probably bitching about them back then for lowering the market.

doesn't look like their prestige was hurt any

18 and 33, what if S&C could jump ahead of Cravath in that line? Show law students (or at least attempt to) that they are financially healthier than Cravath. Wouldn't it be worth it to try?

36 - you talk as if there is a finite quantity of law students who could cut it in the V10. This is simply bull-crap. Most anybody who makes it in the V100 could cut it at a top shop, at least to the degree of proficiency that is needed to make them profitable. That is all that matters. If you are too snobby to go to a firm that paid smaller bonus that firm has one message to you... piss off. There are plenty of fish in the sea.

you're hearing it here first.

Willkie is giving in and going the half-skadden route.... not a shock but a disappointment to many.

*sigh*

Recruiting matters. Many associates are duds and firms try hard to minimize that by hiring smart, hard-working people. Firms lower down in vault get more duds. Ask S&S how fast a rep can turn. NYC firms compete with DC firms also so it's not a given that the best go to WLRK and S&C.

And this is another reason why vault rankings matter. We have all agreed to vote CSM low. Some say 99, but that is more the slogan than the reality. I plan on voting them probably in the teens.

any news on cahill bonuses?

33-
I know plenty of people, including myself, who turned down Cravath + S&C for Skadden (less so but still), Cleary, Debevoise, and Weil.

i wonder what this means for firms firm who announce bonus policies prospectively like mofo and orrick

48 it means they are awesomer this year.

lol at weil trolls thinking anyone gives a shit what their firm does. weil is the true "half-skadden": just as douchey but without the vault ranking to give it some credibility

and lol at 44 for thinking willkie would seriously try to exceed csm/simpson/dpw

"Milbank has no billable hours requirement"

Do they have a "good standing" requirement? Are half teh associates going to be put on probabtion on or before January 14?

Big time Kasowitz rumors we are going 100% ala WLRK. You heard it hear first.

K&E is looming in the shadows, waiting to show the other V10s what the market really is.

JUST GOT AN INTERVIEW REQUEST!!!

*starts playing "good life" by kanye*

-nervous T-10 1L
email job leads to nervoust101l@yahoo.com

1 interview!!! :)
5 dings :(:(:(:(:(
173 pending...
1 "wait until january" :/

No market-paying NYC law firm is going to give out "full" 2007 bonuses at this point.

Partners at S&C or Weil (especially Weil!) aren't going to forgo tens of thousands of dollars each for no reason. Paying higher bonuses to associates isn't going to increase business or profits.

lol at 50 for being a complete douche... i'm not at willkie (sorry, 44) but i know they've been doing better this year than STB and maybe even dpw.. check the ppp.. idiot.

47 = Skadden and Weil troll

I don't think you actually work less at the magical cut off of V25

... but wouldn't this be a good opportunity for Weil to gain some footing? Business is good, other firms are floundering, and they can certainly afford to pay the Skadden bonuses.

Seems like S&C has nothing to lose by matching Cravath, but it might be a good strategic move for Weil to break from the pack.

Agree w/ 56. Willkie will probably be ahead of some pretty big players when the PPP's are announced.

Weil won't follow Skadden. Neither will S&C.

18 -Yeah, students want to go to "a" V10 or V5 law firm. But WHICH ONE will they choose to go to, given offers from several? The idea that these firms totally don't care about that is ridiculous.

36 - Yeah. But given a choice between prestige/exit opportunities and prestige/exit opportunities/MORE MONEY which one do you think people will pick?

37:

Quinn will NEVER, EVER pay a dime more than it has to. For anything.

The one possible exception would have been if Cravath had matched Skadden; we have a weird thing about CSM here.

agree with 56 and 60. i am at a v10 and as much as i like to hammer my friend at willkie with that... they run a tight shop there and have always been under the radar and seem to like to keep it that way. so, while i doubt they will give skadden bonuses... they're still money, at least for their partners...

60 -- fair enough... PPP.. sure.

how did this turn into a willkie string?

54 - based on your repeatedly lame,annoying and decidedly unsolicited comments, your interview will = spectacular FAIL. Enjoy your summer crashing on someone's futon.

yeah, 54 is really annoying but this is all a ploy. s/he is just doing this so that eventually there will be some story on ATL and s/he'll have some fodder for callback interviews. whatever.

Wow, amazing to read a post and not get pissed about Mystal's douchebag commentary.

Milbank TTTweed.

-T4 2L

33 - many, many people I know turned down Cravath / S&C for Davis Polk and Cleary.

we share our building with Willkie and have to say that they have more attractive chicks than we do... not so sure about the guys because i don't spend my 10 min lunch breaks checking out dudes but.. from a sidley 1st year: dear willkie partners, please reward the hotness of your associates. thx.

72: hahahaha!

63:

Haven't half the associates in Quinn's home office in LA been engaged in open warfare with a handful of Skadden LA litigators over the past year? Unless the Barbie girls and boys want to openly admit they can't actually play with the Bratz folk where it counts for the associates (their bank accounts), Quinn better be paying Skadden-sized bonuses. I would hate to be a Quinn associate fuming about going up against the big guns, putting in a respectable if not winning performance, and be paid less than the associates on the other side!

74:

63 here. Yep. Also, the NY office had a big case against Skadden recently as well, and got spanked.

It will happen. And we will get some lame justification for it.

1. agree with 56 and 60's comments. not at willkie but have friends there, a couple who turned down v.15 because they liked the folks there better. i know their ppp is always at the very top of the pack so financially and workwise they are fine, especially with the DC practices which apparently are pulling a lot of weight.

2. 63: good point. funny how we all have the same impression for Quinn.. NY experience has been the same. good for them for getting this far but if they want to play with the big boys it's going to take a little aggression.

3: 45 agreed.

45 what you don' realize is that no matter what you are anyone else votes Cravath, law students will still fall over themselves to get a job there. Cravath making a (barely) poor decision in one year isnt going to hurt their almost 100 years as a place people would kill to work at. That you think your vote even means anything shows you are an idiot.
If anything, (if S&C and Weil follow Cravath) this is what the Vault 10 SHOULD look like:
1. WLRK
2. Skadden and Cravath tied. Skadden for paying about market. Cravath for showing Skadden that everyone will follow Cravath.
3-100: everyone else. Because they FOLLOWED Cravath. They are even more pitiful. They could have, but DIDN'T pay more. Vote those fools into the ground. If anything this just shows how baller Cravath is by spitting in Skadden's face and watching everyone follow their lead.

Let's not forget the embarassing loss Quinn had over the summer to Paul Weiss in the Parmalat/Citigroup trial . . . not only did QE lose on all their claims, they had a six figure counterclaim rendered against them. Ouch.

Can anyone from Milbank PLEASE comment on how the firm is doing overall?

Are entire practice groups dead as some commentators have noted?

Dark horse magic circle firms?

Agree with all the posters talking about how stupid people are to think that supply of qualified law students is greater than demand. It isn't, and likely never will be. V10's don't need to "fight" over the cream of the crop. They all get their share. Cravath consistently beat, and continues, to beat out all others (with the exception of WLRK) at Yale, Harvard, Columbia, and NYU

Good grief. Why don't you all get it? CSM and the others are doing this bonus thing because their clients simply would not put up with much more.

Think about it. The clients that are left are hurting and looking at government bailouts.

And frankly, there is not too much that young associates do for these clients, so barfing at paying their billable rates comes easy.

I truly don't think any partner at Cravath cares if he or she makes $3.2 this year or $3.1.

Its all cosmetics. They can't pay you more because all clients know you aren't worth it.

And some of you need to get real. You aren't valuable. Yet.

80, you're a fucking idiot. haven't you been reading about how tons of the magic circle firms are firing associates/lowering bonuses/cutting perks/closing offices?

Also, the Parmalat case that Quinn lost was a case that it took on contingency, and worked on extensively for several years. I'm not sure where all this talk about QE having a great year is coming from. Not only did they lose millions of dollars in the Parmalat case, John Quinn emailed all associates last month to warn them that 8 of its 10 largest cases had just settled or completed trial, that there's not enough work for everyone, and there won't be for some time. Plus, rumor has it that layoffs are occurring in the CA offices, though QE's keeping it very quiet.

K-Lo is a Pregna-ho ho ho
K-Lo's gotta go go go

Didn't Skadden pay $140 when everyone else was at $125? Did they pay smaller bonuses back then to make up for that gap?

Didn't Skadden pay $140 when everyone else was at $125? Did they pay smaller bonuses back then to make up for that gap?

86/87:

Yes. They paid smaller bonuses. In some years, they actually undercompensated midlevels.

18 & 81 miss the point completely. You are right; there are more than enough qualified law students to do all of the work at the top 10 firms, but the top 10 firms irrationally emphasize pedegree and don't just want lawyers who can do the work -- they want lawyers who can do the work AND who ranked in the top 5% of the class at a handful of prestigious schools. Those are the very people they are vying for and those are the very same people who, like me, can and do turn down a CSW or S&C offer for a Cleary (or fill in the other likely suspects) offer. There's only one #1 at HLS and YLS and all T-10 firms want that person, so the entire recruiting game is geared at getting him or her and everyone in the bottom 90% reaps the benefit. To think that people smart enough to rank in the top 10 of their law school class would automatically go to CSW or S&C because of their perceived "prestige" (or Skadden because of its bonus structure) is incredibly naive and shows an exquisite misunderstanding of human nature and the law firm recruiting process.

82--

"I truly don't think any partner at Cravath cares if he or she makes $3.2 this year or $3.1".

I work at Cravath. They do.

Also, if what you're saying was the concern, they'd cut the billing rates of jr's, or at least write their time off. With very rare exception, they don't.

89, I'm not calling you an idiot, but to think that you are completely right and I am completely wrong, you basically are. We both make good points, I feel.
p.s. the number one at HLS is going to be a Supreme Court Clerk, not work at a law firm. Trust me.

and, umm, did you GO TO HLS? Because guess I did, and have friends still there now. AND how I said it works, is the way it worked in my 3 years there, and continues to work. Prestige is everything here. Say what you will about what that makes HLS students, but its the truth

Magic circle: 'bout to come over the top like stallone.

I don't know why everyone seems to think there is an abundance of qualified law students.

Fact is few are cut out for BIGLAW life as a midlevel or senior. Half drop out. Many are asked to leave along the way. Trust me, I'm at a TTT who can't recruit with the big boys and it shows. The majority are good associates, but there are many many shitty ones that don't last 3 years.

Is Willkie still a firm? I thought they merged with like Donovan Leisure and Winthrop Stimson and maybe like Reid & Priest or something. If they didn't, does anyone care? What happened to that dude, Jack something?

I think, if anything we can all agree that Lat is better than Elie, and Elie needs to be fired. Lat posts the facts. Sure, the facts with hints of contempt and humor and commentary-- but mostly the facts.
Get rid of that fat fool

89/91- Serious question (from someone who isn't in a position to know the answer): how many people from T5 schools land in NYC? Your whole pissing match seems to take a very NYC-centric view of the world. Is that realistic? The money is great in New York, but certainly some people have compelling reasons to go elsewhere.

96, the money is not great in NYC.

In fact, now it probably is the worst-paying legal market factoring COL.

97 nailed it.

If the money isn't great in NYC, what's the draw? Is it really about prestige? Certainly, there are attorneys and firms that do work that is every bit as intellectually stimulating elsewhere.

-96 (a very confused midwesterner)

NY is a fun place to live. It's NY. Do you seriously need any other explanation?

"CSM and the others are doing this bonus thing because their clients simply would not put up with much more."

82. The income for 2008 has already been earned. Bonuses are just a matter of dividing an already baked pie between partners and associates. We worked the long hours to help bake that pie; we want our slice. I didn't work half as much as those fratboys at Skadden. I don't want half the reward.

Lower fees in 2009 if clients are hurting so bad. Don't punish us for 1 bad quarter.

What is Williams and Connolly's pay scale? Bonus?

bonuses suck across the board this year - but look at it this way, at least unlike and i'banker or trader, 90% of your comp isnt tied to bonus and your making a 125 base. Those guys, to the extent employed, are the ones really taking it on the chin-- everything's relative

What is an investment bank? I thought we only have bank holding companies now.

While I agree with the posts that point out that Weil really has no reason to do anything but follow the market (which is Cravath), what do people think about Weil maybe announcing a figure in-between Skadden and Cravath? They obviously don't need to match Skadden because bonuses really won't affect recruiting much, but it could be a way to stand out right now and send the message "Hey, we're doing fine..."

Seriously, what the hell is wrong with you people? Associates are getting HOSED by this! Do you really think the difference in these numbers make a meaningul differences in PPP? They don't. I bet if you tried to move the Amlaw charts around by imaging one firm paying the Skadden bonus and one firm paying the Cravath bonus, there would be no change in profitability rankings in the top 25 firms.

And Skadden CUT overall comp from 07! And Cravath followed that by cutting overall comp back to 05 (maybe 04) numbers. This is a cash grab, plain and simple. Money that could be riding on our hip is riding on somebody elses. Does anyone really think that with all the rate increases (which is what clients really care about) that profits are taking that big of a hit?

What the hell are all of the apologists and prestige whores out there going to say when PPP numbers come in and are in line with 06? Skadden is paying 06 level bonuses. Any firm that claims to match the top of the markt and expects to have profits close to 06 should have (and still should) match those bonus payouts.

The only slim hope is that a firm does so. If anyone does, a lot of these firms will bump their numbers and we all get to have some more money, you know, that stuff we buy things with, pay rent with, rely on for our future financial well being.

I mean, seriously, what the hell!

106-

I generally agree that 08 could be in line with 06. But the move by Cravath and Co. appears to be forward looking. I was riding in a car with a senior partner the other day who laughed all the layoffs of 08 off and said that 08 was nothing and the real bleeding will begin after the new year.

None of these firms have ever said bonuses were forward looking. They have always said "Thanks, we had a good year, here's your bonus."

96- I'd say as much as 40%, but at least 25% of the T5 end up in NYC

101 - Skadden fratboy here.

I agree with you completely. I'm shocked that more people outside Skadden are not outraged by this whole situation. People at other top firms such as Cravath et al. have come to expect their firms to pay the same as Skadden. More people should be pissed off by this. Instead, I mainly see people making excuses for their firms.

Makes me long for the Greedy Associate days. It seems like when we were actively reporting the news, instead of just reading it on some blog, we took a more active and activist interest in it. Firm leadership was always concerned about what was said there, and it had an effect. They seem much less interested in the comment section of some story on some blog site.

108-

Cravath's bonus memo begins:

As you are all aware, U.S. and international corporations find themselves in the midst of both a liquidity crisis and a serious recession, and there are currently no indications that the business climate is likely to recover in the near or medium term. It is incumbent upon the Firm to act responsibly in the context of the new environment in which we find ourselves. With that in mind, we are writing to address certain matters relating to our clients, associate bonuses and our outlook for 2009.

The economic downturn has severely affected our clients. They are under strong pressure to cut costs dramatically, and every week brings new announcements of unprecedented numbers of layoffs. Under these circumstances, we believe it would be irresponsible and an unacceptable hardship on our clients to raise our billing rates for 2009, and we will not do so.

That is pretty forward looking. No?

Honestly, Skadden is paying higher compensation than:

Cleary
Cravath
Davis Polk
Dewey
Millbank
Simpson

Its like we're living in bizarro world.

Congrats to the Skadden partners for paying a fair bonus to your associates. I hope my firm follows the leader.

110--it's strange to me as well to see people keep defending the firms and criticiizing associates as greedy for complaining about a 5-figure bonus. i think these people are probably lawyers in charlotte and milwaukee or something who are forgetting how expensive NYC is and how rich the partners are and how comp is reverting to 2004 levels when PPP's will be at 2006 levels.

106 is spot on. I don't understand why there are so many god damned apologists out there. I guess they are just the people at these lower paying shops who need to console themselves by going into self-denial. That's right, it's cool that you got paid less, because you are still at the most prestigious shop in town. Keep telling yourself that.

As for me, I'm focusing on the bottom line. I really just don't understand why everyone else isn't. I guess these are the same people who voted for Obama and higher taxes.

Where is the Paul, Weiss (excuses) memo re: bonuses?

It is interesting to see the utter lack of understanding exhibited by many of you concerning what is happening in the economy. Profits will be sharply down this year at virtually all of the T20 firms. Although the meltdown was a fourth quarter event, and billings were good most of the year, virtually all of a firm’s PROFITS come in the door in the fourth quarter. This is because many clients historically pay at the end of the calendar year. Being busy is one thing and getting paid is quite another. Big Law firms are usually not significantly in the black before September. This year the bad credit markets will have an impact on clients’ ability to pay the bills. How big an impact is anyone’s guess. Some clients are hoarding cash and others are very cash poor right now. What you guys should be worried about is what will happen if the dire predictions of some come true (30% or more decrease in profits). If that happens, there will be a bloodbath in ’09.

so are there going to be any layoffs at Milbank?

103: First, starting salaries are $160, not $125. Second, I believe Merrill Lynch announced today that it would be paying on average 50% of last year's bonus. That is still much more on an absolute basis than we make, putting aside the fact that we are down 70% from last year if you count the special bonus.

So you're predicting a blood bath at Skadden? Jesus, stop being delusional, look at the numbers, the bonus numbers. DPW said they save three percent of costs through this cut in pay. Do you really think these firms are on so badly on the rocks that 3% in savings will be the difference. Honestly, Stop telling me about the economy. The whole goddamn point of working at a firm with well-developed and diversified practices is to not run around screaming the sky is falling when things goes south. Why don't you find someone to bill $895 an hour to and make yourself some money.

Also, Skadden cut comp. How much do you think they're saving over last year?

Heard from a very reliable source here that Skadden will be issuing a follow-up bonus-related memo by the end of the week in which the firm will announce that they "miscalculated the market," and will set forth an updated bonus structure in line with Cravath et al. The few of us that know about this are at a loss for words, and we are already planning early '09 moves.

Heard from a very reliable source here that Skadden will be issuing a follow-up bonus-related memo by the end of the week in which the firm will announce that they "miscalculated the market," and will set forth an updated bonus structure in line with Cravath et al. The few of us that know about this are at a loss for words, and we are already planning early '09 moves.

MIlbank associate here. Fucking pissed.

Thanks partners!

118, I see you're also putting aside the fact that Merrill Lynch-BofA will be firing about 30,000 people, mostly from the 60,000 employees that ML brought over in the merger.

You want to get paid the ~$300k that a midlevel ML banker gets but with a 50% chance of getting $0?

Lat,

Have any of you folks reached out to firms about how a lot of people are pissed about these bonuses? Let them say its in lieu of layoffs (they'd look bad laying off after that). Let them say that this is a prudent business decision to survive a rough time (maybe they could improve their cash management and client diversification instead of cutting employee pay). Let them say "its my money, I'm keeping it" (at least they'd be honest). I'd like to see these sons of bitches defend this shit in print and then announce profits later.

You guys are fa-king nuts about Willkie. From what I hear, they've been having stealth layoffs since May. The bankruptcy department just got it's first debtor filing last week. Litigation has lost it's last two major trials (for two long-time clients) and don't have more than 1 or 2 big cases. Nothing to do in corp. Juniors are being reallocated. The halls are empty by 6:00.

Agreed, 122. Seriously, maybe we could have done with fewer ice sculptures at the CA retreat? Maybe fewer t-shirts and open bars at meaningless receptions?

Lat: Hey big firm, you've upset people.

Big firm: And your point is?

Lat: Just sayin'.

WILLKIE IS THE GREATEST FIRM EVER

121 - where are you going to go? No one is hiring. No one.

122, Milbank partner here. you're welcome!

120/121--Nice try Cravath-hole.

129, 121 here. I'm a mid-level litigation associate. My phone is ringing off the hook with head hunters. That may not be the most accurate indicator of the lateral market for my year/practice area, but it's all I got at this point. I'll find out for sure soon enough.

head hunters are always calling. that's their job. doesn't mean firms are hiring.

cravath fucked people. fucked people hard. fucked over associated loan payments for partners peanuts.

yeah, headhunters call and call and call and act really excited about you. then when you actually say "well, sure - find me some interviews," they start singing a different tune, more along the lines of "oh, nothing is open *now* but I'm still checking....".

132 - if you try following through with any of those headhunters, you'll find they are selling a bill of goods. I'm similarly situated, but have actually been looking for a few months. Even in litigation, no one is actively hiring. There hasn't even been the normal end-of-year increase in openings as firms project forward needs based on expected attrition.

Look at lateral link and see how stale the openings are they. They update the dates on those things whenever a manager accesses the file. So even the ones with recent dates are actually old and stale. Even on of the "job of the week" posting from ATL was closed by the firm within a couple days of being posted. And not because the position was filled.

111 (and others talking about the forward-looking nature of bonus cuts):

You're delusional to think that the bonus cuts are forward looking. Firms divvy up all profits at the end of the year. There is nothing that carries over to the next year to help cover a drop in revenues.

Any profits that are not paid to associates in the form of bonuses are distributed to partners at the end of the year.

137, exactly right. bonus decreases are about a drop in profits this year.

Does anyone have any news on Holland & Knight?

milbank's holiday party is at the ritz this friday. open top shelf bar for 3 hours for all employees and staff.

way to prioritize!

121/132 - more info., please. Are you at Skadden? Why would Skadden make this colossal PR blunder and go from smelling like roses (even to the haters, for a change) and become the laughing-stock?

Didn't Skadden's announcement say individual bonus memo to follow in early December? Any idea when that might be?

137, maybe profits are distributed but why wouldn't a projected drop for next year affect how much cash is handed out this year in bonuses? If, as a partner, I thought my income was going to go down next year, why not hoard some cash for this year to offset that loss

That's the whole point. Obviously partners can look at the pile and say I want more because I don't know what that pile is going to look like next year. And they take the money.

140 - should they have screwed the staff out of their party so they could give more money to their associates? Holiday parties not just for associates. Also, a party is like $100 a head. not much of an impact on bonuses.

I agree, S&C won't deviat from Cravath. But I'd be kind of curious as to what Weil will do...Milbank paid this bonus because they have the Lehman CC to carry the rest of the firm, and that's small potatos compared to the bankruptcy work Weil is swimming in. It's becoming increasingly clear that Weil is the only firm the large financial institutions trust with their bankruptcy, other firms like Kirkland get plenty of other industries, but not the financial sector. And by this point, Weil is the only firm to have done a large financial institution in decades.

144: no one gives a shit about the party. even the staff. i will be giving my secretary a full bonus, however i know a lot of people that will be passing the skimping down.

whatever your position at the firm is, id assume that most people would prefer an extra $100 dollars over a holiday party?

milbank is the scroog, not me, dick.

142 are you a moron? The associates are saying that they worked very hard this year and generated damn near close to (if not more) revenue for the firm this year than they did last year. Firm PPP this year is projected to be around '06 levels, therefore they should at least be paid '06 bonuses. The outlook for next year should not affect how one is compensated for their performance for the past year's work.

137, um no, a partnership can easily choose to retain profits inside the partnership instead of distributing them out to partners.
Every law firm retains some cash since clients don't pay that much during the first few months of a year, so money is need to meet rent and payroll. This year, well-run firms will retain even more.

Look up the concept of "capital accounts."

At this point, why would a firm pay Skadden bonus when it can pay Cravath bonus?

123: No, but using your numbers, the average associate would have been much better off spending 4 years at ML making $600 for 3 years and $300 for 1 year, than spending all 8 years at a firm with steady pay and nowhere to go after.

Because they don't want to be think of beneath Skadden in terms of compensation. And in a rational labor market, being behind in compensation is being behind.

Hi, I work at Milbank. I suck at life.

142/143 - the point is that the partners are just pocketing the money that would have gone to associates, not setting it asside for a rainy day/year. In other words, as your posts confirm, it's motivated by greed, not some altruistic intention of keeping the firm afloat in a bad year, or some sympathetic show of support to d-bag bankers.

If the sky really falls next year, do you think the partners will pony up the extra money they pocket this year to keep it afloat? Doubtful. They'll grab the nearest parachute and bail for greener pastures.

BLUMPKIN

150, please learn about the concept of hindsight bias.

Also, the banking job equal to the average law associate job does not make $600k a year. A person with <7 years of banking experience makes on average $300k a year during a good year, like I said.

I can confirm 121/132. One of the three partners I confirmed this with cited, as "precedent" (her word, not mine) multiple times over the last few years when a handful of firms would try to get ahead of the market, make bonus announcements, only to be subsequently trumped by other firms. These firms then made market corrections of sorts, upward. Here, Skadden would just correct downward. I already put a down payment on an engagement ring for my girlfriend, based in large part on the (original) Skadden bonus news!

I keep wondering what Latham will do. They seem to have been trying to compete with Skadden in recent years. Then again, that could cut both ways, as they seem to be in a race on the profits-per-partner front too, which would be hurt by paying Skadden bonuses.

Willkie 4 Life

156 - please give more detail about these purported "precedents"

158: Life imprisonment at Willkie? Isn't that unconstitutional?

156, That would be interesting. There is a huge difference between revising upward and revising downward.

Huge.

156: It's okay, just downwardly adjust the engagement ring. I'm sure it'll go over just as well with your almost-fiance as the bonus downsizing will with Skadden associates.

155 - depends on what group. maybe as an equity analyst, or perhaps a corp fin monkey, you're in the 300s (more likely the former). traders, obviously more at that stage. i know several structured finance folks in the 5-7 year stage that were 700k total comp. sure beats equities in dallas. of course, though, they're looking for a job these days.

I for one hope Skadden reneges on its bonus and cuts it in half like everyone else. It sucks they get twice the bonus. Besides, if firms are allowed to renege it means no downside to leading the market out of the gate strong.

I hope Skadden does NOT reneg and "adjust" downward. With Skadden up there, there is still SOME pressure for firms to move upwards in the future...

164 - you are a f*cking idiot. No downside? What's the upside of a firm leading strong out of the gate if it can later renege? Rather than firms having an incentive to match higher bonuses offered by other firms, they will have an incentive to low-ball, knowing that the initial leader will likely adjust downward.

Grow some balls and demand more for your hard work, a$$wipe. What has happened to this board? Stop apologizing for your pussy firms and demand better!

166: Right on, mutha' fu¢ka'!

164: Nuh uh. You walk back into that partner's office and you say: "Hells no! Where's my full bonus at, beatch?!"

If you can't tell your firm what you think in person, anonymous opportunities like this comment board are a safe place to let them know. Stop deluding yoursef into thinking that your paycut this year is OK (despite performance similar to 2006 levels), and stop apologizing for your firm cutting your pay -- especially when you have the cloak of anonymity.

164 here: I think it cuts both ways and is really a debatable issue.

I say that right now firms don't want to go first and announce high b/c they might end up left out to dry when the market sets low (Skadden this year is paying 2x market).

You say that once it is acceptable to renege, low-ball bidders will emerge to bring the market down.

But I say that risk exists regardless of the ability to renege--low-ballers are always able to bring the market down. Look at Cravath this year. The only people who care about reneging are the people at the reneger (Skadden-ites this year). But everyone benefits when firms can shoot high without fearing overshooting.

169: Good advice. Here goes:

Dear My Law Firm:

I was going to donate my bonus to an orphanage. Now, of course, I can only donate half as much.

Thanks for screwing over the orphans.

Sincerely,

Anonymous

Skadden is NOT reneging. Cravath trolls.

147, you are the moron. PPP will not be at '06 levels. this is the basic incorrect assumption that all of you greedy douchebags are making.

I heart Willkie and I work there and there have not been layoffs and people are plenty busy so.. not sure what there's to gain by BSing about places you don't work but... keep at it..

2009 PPP, like the S&P, will revert back to 1997 levels.

170 - recent history contradicts you. Over the past several years, there has been an upward adjustment by at least one firm for one or more classes each year because later firms have raised.

I guess I prefer to see the glass half full, and hope that Skadden does not renege putting at least some pressure on the other firms. I know they act like its no pressure, but if Skadden reneges it will definitely be no pressure - zero. Also, it will set a bad precedent that has not happened in the recent past, which firms will be likely to follow in the future.

If Skadden reneges, it hurts everyone... including Skadden who will have major egg on its face.

right, PPP always tracks the S&P. after all, they both have a "P". and three characters.

For christ's sake, Skadden is not going to renege. get a grip.

Skadden to Half-Skadden!

Dear Cravath,

I hate you. I hate you so very, very much.

Cartman

Skadden won't renege, at least not now. Maybe they had a chance if Citigroup (Skadden's biggest client) wasn't bailed out by the gov't. You can write the memo yourself ... "Since our most recent announcement regarding associate bonuses, unprecedented developments in the market yada yada" ... it would take that large of an event (that ironically almost happened) to cause them to renege.

They will pay what they promised. If S&C or some other firm does the same, there will be a mass-adjustment upwards, I predict, at least among the V20 firms.

zero chance of a mass adjustment upwards. zero.

S&C would be well served to announce and pay on the same day at the very end of the year.

164, how are you so f'ing stupid?

Are you people stoned? Skadden will not renege.

I don't mind if you bitch and whine,

But whatever you do, vote Cravath '99!

182 - I don't know ... if a second firm were to follow Skadden (and that's a BIG if, given that pretty much only S&C would be in position to do so) ... it wouldn't be hard to imagine an adjustment. It happened in 2005 ... the original bonus scale was $30k for first years + 5k each year. Someone, I think it was Simpson, upped it to $35k+, and everyone supplemented $5k per class year. I bought a 52" plasma with the 3k (after tax) that now would cost about $900. It was nice though.

181, I don't think "ironically" means what you think it means.

187, radically different economic environment now. i hope you are right, but I don't see it as even remotely possible.

Maybe no mass adjustment upward, but a couple of firms might go up if S&C announces at Skadden levels.

C'mon S&C! Big Money!

S&C - show the world that Cravath is your bitch.

79: You aren't going to get any real info about Milbank (or any other firm) b/c most people on here are a) law students or b) junior associates. Either way they don't have any (substantive) info.

If i was 60 years old, a partner at S&C, sitting on eight-figures liquid, i would say fuck it, let's roll and match 2007 bonuses. but then again, maybe not.

193, your thoughtlessness with your own money is the reason why you will never be rich.

193, if I was 60 years old, a partner at S&C, sitting on eight-figures liquid, i would say fuck it,why match 2007 bonuses when "everyone's" paying half-Skadden?

Whatever about Milbank. Don't they can all their 9th years every year anyway? Or at least try to?

And a little more insight into why people choose to go to NYC: you can go anywhere in the world if you've worked in NYC. Hell, most international offices want their associates to be barred in NY. If you want to move to Houston, you're more likely to make parther if you've busted your ass in NYC for four years.

And you are right about Skadden associates spanking everyone. I got spanked by a Skadden associate last night and my ass still hurts.

Quinn just got an injunction in Bratz case against Skadden. That's a huge ruling.

Hopefully that will make them too ashamed to lowball now.

Working in NYC is becoming less and less appealing...

the skadden bonus is budgeted for - its just a question of forcing the issue - Weil and K&E are imperative to this domino effect, not S&C

does KE give boni to its 4th year assoc...i mean "partners"?

198, then leave. Fewer money-grubbing whiny lawyers in NYC will increase both pleasantness and wages.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

As pathetic as this sounds, I think I'm not alone in feeling that without a blog like ATL (as much as it sucks), my Biglaw career would be significantly less interesting.

I'm going to go drink and cry myself to sleep now . . .

What kind of troll are you?
http://www.bitterlawyer.com/index.php/columns_detail_comment/seven_species_of_legal_website_trolls/?cat_id=13

Rumors circulating about Pillsbury layoffs again. Elie, please investigate.

FIRST!

FIRST!

There's no reneging for Cravath. What are they going to say? "We thought this was the least bonus we could give you, but it turns out that we can give even less now?"

Re: K&E. Yes they give bonuses. No, nobody knows what they because they vary, and the aggregate numbers aren't known.

In short, K&E bonuses are like dick sizes. Everyone is telling you that their's is larger than average, and you know it's not really true.

Seriously, are there really morons here who are actually entertaining the idea of Skadden dropping the bonus figures?

If so, I have some oceanfront property I'd love to show you in Idaho.

PS - 106, you are awesome. The lack indignity amongst associates is just disgusting. No one has any balls anymore, no one...

89 -- you're crazy. The TOP law students at the TOP schools don't even consider vault sweatshops like csm or s&c. They go to ultra-prestigious shops that would never even interview most people at HLS --

Kellogg Huber in DC, Susman Godfrey in Houston, Williams & Connolly in DC, Bartlit Beck in Chicago, Munger Olson in LA. These are the firms you should be grouping w/ Wachtell, not freakin Skadden or csm!

These firms OWN the vault sweatshops, especially Skadden. And williams-connolly pays more than cravath and the others, except for skadden -- $180k guaranteed in DC. And the exit opptys, training, experience, and partnership prospects are 100x better than any vault TTT.

89 -- oh yeah -- most of the associates at the "top" ny sweatshop TTTs are wannabe bankers who realized too late that they hated law and law school, so they figured that they'd review merger agreements for 3 years and then exit to MD of Goldman Sachs -- good luck with that plan.

But the associates at the firms I mentioned (munger, williams-connolly, kellogg) are actual LAWYERS, not poser banker slaves. AND the associates at these TRULY prestigious firms can just as easily exit to GC or business or DOJ or whatever.

So let's get our facts straight. The REAL rankings are:

1. The firms I mentioned in 209 (plus wachtell)

HUGE DROP

2. Vault 5

HUGE, HUGE DROP

3. Vault 6-10

4. K-Mart

Do people doing secondments (and performing well at the secondment) get jerked-over when it comes to salary and bonus?

Houston to $200,000 b!tches

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

209-210 - Why so angry Mr. Ultra-Prestigious Litigator? Not getting the respect you feel entitled to from the "sweatshop associates" in NY? Well don't worry, I am sure your target audience respects you all the more now.

I hope you are not a colleague of mine. TRULY.

- An Actual Lawyer

biglaw partners are the greediest mother#$%#s on Earth, seriously...let's screw the associates out of their hard earned money so the partners can get $2mil a year instead of $1.94mil

I can't wait to quit these ass clowns

biglaw partners are the greediest mother#$%#s on Earth, seriously...let's screw the associates out of their hard earned money so the partners can get $2mil a year instead of $1.94mil

I can't wait to quit these ass clowns

I was surfing for porn when I found this site. What are you guys talking about. Can someone give me a high-level explanation? What's a firm?

209-210

I have been in biglaw a long time and am not familiar with those firms you list. Do they do supreme court work or what? Could you please provide your list of top but obscure for some unfair reason law schools as well so that my spawn can have a wider array of choices for their JD?

217 - lol

216 - it's a place where you sit in an air conditioned office and do some writing for large amounts of money. then you even more money in bonuses and whine constantly because you wanted even more.

216 - it's a place where you sit in an air conditioned office and do some writing for large amounts of money. then you get even more money in bonuses and whine constantly because you wanted even more.

Its really kind of embarassing that CSM can just make these firms their bitches. We won't pay won't Skadden and everyone just jumps on board. Fn pathetic. 220, you're welcome for my tax dollars.

209: I can tell you that pretty much nobody on the NYU Law Review this year cared about those firms (W & C excepted). But then, we're all hippie freaks who are going to DPW and D & P.

Everyone is forgetting what the past year has done to the psychology of Partners at the NYC powerhouses. Sure, some of the firms have had ok-good years. But a lot of the Partners have taken huge hits in retirement plans (like the rest of America) but these guys are much more invested in hedge funds/alt investments. In case you have been asleep for the last year, a lot of those are down 30-60per. Partners have gotten crushed personally even though their firms have had ok years, and they are going to start keeping every dime for themselves. My two cents.

Every hit they've taken is 1/10 of a hit we take. Jesus, I don't care that they made poor investments choices.

Everybody needs to read the link at 203. Freakin hysterical!

The kids who still think that S&C is going to match Skadden's bonus scale remind me of those Nazi sailors in U-Boats who still thought the war was going on several years after the fall of Berlin. Come up for air, guys.

My two cents is that bonuses are and never have been paid to pay back associates for their hard work, show appreciation, increase morale, because of a general love of associates or to help anyone pay off their debt faster. Of course there are a few irreplaceable associates who have bonds with partners and the partners will go to bat and want to repay these associates for their dedication. However, other than these rare circumstances, bonuses have always been paid simply to deter large numbers of associates from jumping ship when such options are available. Thus in years such as 2005, 2006 and 2007 when third years were going in house at hedge funds, banks and in-house and getting better hours and great compensation pacakges with possiblility to go to "the business side," firms turned up the bonuses and spread the wealth. Obviously firms could not match bank levels of compensation based on the structural differences between banks and law firms but they put the carrot out there so that e.g. a 3rd year who put in 2400 hours, was on the brink of divorce/breakup/depression/obeseity/alcoholism would say to him/herself, "this SUCKS but does it suck so much that I'm going to turn down $250,000 in total salary to sit on a beach in Thailand for a few months and then join the peace corp... I guess I can do it for a couple more years and have enough money for a wedding/house/car/kids". Once the hedge fund/bank/in house and even lateral firm move options DIED there is absolutely no incentive to share the wealth with the minions. I'm not at all surprised to see "half 2007 bonus if you hit 2,000 hours" where firms know full well only 10% or so of corporate associates are hitting 2,000 hours. At least it keeps up the illusion of bonuses existing. Partners' would probably be sending out "no bonus this year" memos with a smile on their face if "the market" didn't decide this year's levels at what it did. And the market only decided this year's levels at what they are because some truly valuable superstars (I'm talking smart, committed individuals who know their shit and don't troll ATL all day) might leave and students from top-tiered schools would refuse to go to a firm with no bonus (again a psychological thing more so than anything else because $9,000 after taxes for a first year in NY isn't changing their lives much). I assumed that if the first firm declared no bunus, the next one would provide a nominal amount to distinguish itself and punk the first firm so there had to be some bonus established.

All this being said, I'm just a mid level corporate associate who probably won't be getting a bonus because of the 2,000 minimum hour crap. I'm not making any apologies for the firm but just giving my two cents as to why bonuses are so low this year... quite simply put because firms can get away with it.

227 - that was like a million cents. i got bored.

227, I agree with you 100%, except I question whether or not firms can "get away with it" with no repercussions. I understand that right now the economy is in the shitter and that lateral/exit opportunities are nonexistent, but what about recruiting? If I were a 2L next fall with great credentials why would I even consider going to NYC?? The money is the same elsewhere around the country, so why subject myself to a crappy apartment with roommates? Maybe firms simply do not care about recruiting next fall (that could very well be the case), but I think that all of the top law students next fall should really be questioning whether NYC is the place for them.

213 -- not angry at all. You and the rest of the people on this board (comparing crappy firms and crappy bonuses in a crappy city) are the angry ones. I just think it's hilarious when people on this board debate which ttt, banker-whore sweatshop (ie, the top "vault" firms) is "best" -- sorta like debating whether Ford or GM is better, when in fact Ferrari and Aston Martin are the true prestigious firms.

Don't feel bad that you couldn't get a REAL legal job at a truly prestigious firm -- I'm sure you feel good every morning when you walk into your shared office at cravath and read more merger agreements (or stare out of the window, since there are no mergers) for 14 hours. At least the cravath name impresses all the girls and your friends from law school. And you have a great chance of making partner!

Willkie has been doing well this year. People are at the office during the evening, and also early in the morning, when work calls, which it inevitably does, albeit at different times for different matters and departments. Willkie does like to fly under the radar, but the PPP don't lie, and neither do the people at Willkie who enjoy working there.

231, i also work at willkie, but i am ashamed that you may be my coworker. truly awful sentence structure.

188 - you need a dictionary. The poster was pointing out that it would take an extremely unexpected event to force an outcome. The event, up to the time considered unexpected by definition, nearly happened.

By definition, the unexpected event of course could not have been expected. That the event nearly occurred, and thus lost its unexpectedness, fits well within the definition of irony.

Learn to think critically before you attempt to seem smart.

When did this become the thread for Willkie people to suck each other off?

230--Do you sodomize your mother every night, or just when you're feeling truly unnoticed?

232, I also work at Willkie and I am ashamed that you may be my co-worker. Your abs and quads leave a lot to be desired.

I, too, work at Willkie and am gay.

Oh, wait, that wasn't what all these posts were about?

121 - where would you go? Unless you have some sort of niche specialty I don't think anyone's hiring.

174 & 231 - you're full of crap. Why are corporate juniors doing doc review and litigation first years working on (the only) chapter 11 filing that came in this year?

121, I heard from a very reliable source at the North Pole that Santa is only bringing gifts to half the good girls and boys this year.

Willkie doesn't get the proper respect it deserves. It's about time a threat finally starts talking about them.

Willkie doesn't get the proper respect it deserves. It's about time a thread*** finally starts talking about them.

239 -- you just described what's going on at most firms, mine included (v20). so, not so convincing. work has slowed down everywhere...

See 241, it is typos like yours that necessitate Willkie's lack of respect.

Now go back to trying to make yourself feel better about working at a crappy firm. Oh, right, you luve it. Um, you mean, love.

243 - yes, but it does contradict the idiots who say WFG is fine and everyone is busy. That's a just a lie they tell to help sleep at night. Like most, the firm had a great first quarter, okay second, then fell off a cliff in the second half of the year. There are not going to be mass layoffs, but there have been "headcount reductions" going on since mid-year reviews. There's been a freeze on legal and staff hiring since June. No worse that a lot of big firms, but anyone who says that they are killing it just doesn't know what they are talking about.

Nice try 245, but Willkie doesn't have mid-year reviews.

246- wrong. The have mid-year reviews for first-years and for anyone else who is not in good standing (or going to be told they are not in good standing - the first key to a stealth layoff).

139 - I've got news about Holland & Knight!!!

They are a underperforming weak firm that is neither a mover, nor a shaker, nor a moneymaker. Will never make it up to tier 5 much more anything higher. Film at 11.

139 - I've got news about Holland & Knight!!!

They are a underperforming weak firm that is neither a mover, nor a shaker, nor a moneymaker. Will never make it up to tier 5 much more anything higher. Film at 11.

139 - I've got news about Holland & Knight!!!

They are a underperforming weak firm that is neither a mover, nor a shaker, nor a moneymaker. Will never make it up to tier 5 much more anything higher. Film at 11.

Mgmt cmtee at Weil meets soon to discuss, matches Cravath due to client perception. Guaranteed.

You people make me sick.