Third!

FURST TO SAY SECOND

we all know what this means! the hammer that is the K&E bonus system is going to crush you all.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

"Boise"?
Jesus Christ...

Lockstep boni are dead!

Boise? Please proofread your posts. Thanks.

Boise? Please proofread your posts. Thanks.

It says "Boies" for me.

Good to see that not all law firms want to short change associates

Their compensation system is simple if you don't elect to take any contingency cases. As a first year you bill at 370 an hour, and you keep 30% of the revenue that you bring in. During the year you get paid a salary off the base (168k for first years) and after your hours are totaled for the year you keep however much you've made over the 168k based on the 30% revenue calculation as a "bonus."

So, if you billed 2100 hours, it would be 2100*370*.3 = 233,000. You would walk away with a 65k bonus your first year on top of the 168k base salary.

It really is that simple. I'm sure plenty of posters will follow telling me how i'm wrong because this seems like too much money, but I'm now a mid-level associate at boies and this is exactly how it works. I've personally walked away with over 80k in bonus money every year I've been here. The money is astounding if you find the hours.

If you elect to take contingency cases, then everything changes. I've personally never gone for the gamble, but some people find it exciting.

I'd take a half-Skadden over having to work at BSF (and I speak from experience).

"So, if you billed 2100 hours, it would be 2100*370*.3 = 233,000. You would walk away with a 65k bonus your first year on top of the 168k base salary."

Holy crap.

Some associates who work on contingency cases at Boies take home $1 million bonuses:

http://abovethelaw.com/2008/01/a_sevenfigure_payday_for_boies.php

11: You're dead wrong! This seems like too much money.

11, the lawyers here are so risk-averse that they think Skadden's double bonus is worse than Cravath's bonus because Skadden only pays the Cravath scale for 1400-1600 hours and nothing below 1400, despite unlimited pro bono hours. Expect people to say how lockstep is so much better, etc., than a system where you (gasp) get paid based on how hard you work.

Why would any current 1L want to work for any of these firms that are giving half-bonuses this year? Hopefully some firms that want to differentiate themselves from the BigLaw pack will step up and offer full bonuses this winter. Talent will flock to Skadden, BSF and other firms that step up to the plate and demonstrate that they are willing to pay for the best young lawyers. The lack of foresight at Cravath is just mind-boggling.

On an unrelated note, where have the backwoods, inbred, hillbillies who previously posted "Roll Tide" comments been? Oh, that's right - Florida confirmed the fact that Alabama sucks.

Cravath says: It's hip to be square!

Why would any current 1L want to interview for positions next fall at any of these firms that are giving half-bonuses this year? Hopefully some firms that want to differentiate themselves from the BigLaw pack will step up and offer full bonuses. Talent will flock to Skadden, BSF and other firms that step up to the plate and demonstrate that they are willing to pay for the best young lawyers. The lack of foresight at Cravath is just mind-boggling.

boies schiller associates are getting their num nums

Why would any current 1L want to interview for positions next fall at any of these firms that are giving half-bonuses this year? Hopefully some firms that want to differentiate themselves from the BigLaw pack will step up and offer full bonuses. Talent will flock to Skadden, BSF and other firms that step up to the plate and demonstrate that they are willing to pay for the best young lawyers. The lack of foresight at Cravath is just mind-boggling.

11, I think you'd get a third of anything over 233, so in your example, the first year's bonus would be 21.6.

17, you and the rest of the clueless 1Ls who think money is the only important thing in life should definitely go to Skadden or BSF. Stay far far away from the rest of us, please.

23, no. It is exactly how i said it is (11). Please don't post if you don't know what you are talking about. I know what happens with my paycheck.

17, 20, and 22 - please post once.

17 - expect lockstep firms to follow Cravath. Expect highly recruited 2Ls to continue to choose firms based on a broad range of factors, one important element of which is compensation. As 16 points out, plenty of "risk averse" lawyers out there will choose lockstep and be happy with the choice as they get paid somewhere in the neighborhood of $200k to bill 1300 hours and do jack shit.

Oh yeah, NY to 190k. Also.

23 = english major.

11 accounted for the 30% upfront HTH

This makes sense for the lit shops that have no corp dept bringing them down.

"you keep 30% of the revenue that you bring in"

the revenue you bring in might be lower than what you bill out, yes? What if a client balks at a bill (which is becoming more and more common) or gets a discount in return for business? Does the firm go ahead and give you the money for your work, or stiff you because it couldn't collect?

As an elite, risk-averse lawyer, I prefer lockstep at 50% bonus level.

23, you can't do math.

This is why we shouldn't let history and polisci majors that can't get jobs into law school.

CADWALADER MATCHED SKADDEN & BOIES!!!!

CADWALADER MATCHED SKADDEN & BOIES!!!!

CADWALADER MATCHED SKADDEN & BOIES!!!!

CADWALADER MATCHED SKADDEN & BOIES!!!!

You don't "elect" to take contingency matters, you are assigned to them. As a junior associate, you really don't have that sort of control over your docket (regardless of where you work).

Anybody 2L who thinks most biglaw jobs are pretty equal will choose the firm that pays more. That's all. Yeah, maybe that's the wrong way to choose, but when I was a 2L I was (1) pretty unsure about the true distinctions, unbelieving claims to lifestyle and (2) not convinced I would stay at the first place I worked anyway.

So, yes, many 2Ls should focus on overall salary differences in choosing firms.

30--In the years I have been here I have never encountered this situation. I don't even know the policy on it. All I know is that I've been paid for every single hour that I've billed. Whether I've been lucky with paying clients or the firm has absorbed some of the costs I don't know. If you want to justify your lockstep bonus based on the remote possibility that a client at an elite firm might not pay the bill, then power to you.

I'm not going to say anything else in response to my post (11). It is what it is, and I love it here. I should mention, though, that pro bono does not factor into this calculation. You do pro bono at your own risk, so Boies isn't for everyone. And who knows where the firm will be when David leaves. But if you want to make a ton of money very quickly while getting amazing work and experience, there is simply no better place.

Elie, you fat bastard, this bonus structure has been in place at Boies for years. It is in no way based on Skadden or any other firm. Boies is typically the highest-paying law firm every year based on salary and bonus. And the poster above that explained the system is 100% correct. Each associate receives a base salary commensurate with market and the receives a year-end bonus calculated by subtracting the base salary from the total revenue generated. Oh, and for those worried about Boies not collecting from clients, you must not know nothing about the people in that firm. For example, Boies got in a lot of trouble with clients for using family owned services without fulling disclosing the conflict.

how is babby formed?

Every year there's a variation on a Boies Schiller story like this, and every year there are plenty Boies Schiller associates who don't take home even a market bonus.

34, then the clueless idiots will flock to Skadden and BSF. The top firms won't want those people anyway, especially those who believe in (2). Natural selection at work. It's safe to say that the real in-demand lawyers would have done their homework and not focus just on compensation.

33--when assigned to a matter that is eligible for contingency, you elect whether to take the gamble or to use the hours for the purposes of the normal bonus calculation. it is your choice.

23 didn't do the math wrong, he misunderstood the bonus scheme.

The real scheme is: your billing rate x your hours x 0.3

23 thinks it is: 0.3 x ((your billing rate x your hours x 0.3) - your base salary [for first year, 168,000])

Come to think of it he did do the math wrong also.

Never mind.

Since the Boies bonus structure is evidently tied directly to hours billed, isn't the real quesiton whether boies attorneys are still billing the same number of hours this year as in the past?

If they are then their bonuses will be comparable to past years'. If they have less work because of the economy, then their bonuses will be lower too.

33 - As I understand it, at Boies, if you are working on a contingency fee matter (matter X), you can stick to an hours-based bonus system and all of the hours you work on matter X will count towards your bonus, or you can elect to have your hours on matter X count towards a share of the contingency fee, if recovered.

Biglaw associates (mostly NYC) who <3 lockstep are usually the first ones to get cut and bitch about layoffs. Everywhere else in the country gives bonuses based on billed hours, and that's why we're getting the same bonuses as last year because those who can't toe the billable line aren't sucking money from those who worked their asses off. The payoff is those 5-6pm commutes home for the corporate/slow guys. Kudos Boies. Death to lockstep.

32 -- how can you match skadden and boies?

39,

If you really believe that biglaw firm A and biglaw firm B are really different you are fooling yourself.

Boies does have a corporate dept. It's not slow either.

46, if you really think there are no differences between Cravath and Skadden, or between BSF and White & Case, keep on thinking that, please.

48 - please elucidate the differences.

48: LOL at your insecurity.

It's a crime to let a sucker keep his money.

It's nice that the Boies system has worked for commenter 11. But for the past several years, most Boies associates have billed larges numbers of hours (i.e., 2200-2500) and received below-market bonuses, for the following reasons:

1. Work on contingency cases that didn't pay out
2. Work on client development cases
3. Work on pro bono cases
4. Work on cases where the client was receiving a discounted rate
5. Work on cases where the client didn't pay the full bill

It would be nice if an associate could simply decline to work on cases falling into any of the above categories, but that is unfortunately not the way it works.

The Amex thing is also way overblown. As with the entire Boies bonus system, the hype is far removed from the actual truth. Boies is better in talking like it's giving out huge bonuses than in actually doing so.

48, 49 - the difference is in PRESTIGE - you get prestige points that other firms cannot give you. Prestige is priceless, thus the total compensation is higher at Cravath. I've bought several islands with this prestige!

- NOT 46

49,50: Cravath: forced rotation every 2 years; two offices. Minimal bankruptcy work.
Skadden:No forced rotation; numerous offices if you want to move.

BSF: litigation focus; contingency-based cases; who knows what will happen when DB leaves.
W&C: international corporate focus; no cult of personality.

HTH

Anybody nail a CWTNY 05 associate this weekend?

ballsDEEP

Co-sign 38 and 52. BSF associates may do better than their counterparts at other NY firms this year, but for the past few years, bonuses for many associates have been below market.

54 - so you're saying that Skadden is better AND pays better.

So how much is Elizabeth Wurtzel getting?

Even with their bonibonus, Skadden still is first in line to wipe the Ass Cravath when the need arises, usually around 1:30PM.

54, sure of course, since you seem to need feel validated about your choice of Skadden from anonymous Internet posters.

oh and BSF associates and family are all headed to jamaica this weekend

37: They need to do way instain mother> who kill thier babbys. becuse these babby cant frigth back? it was on the news this mroing a mother in ar who had kill her three kids. they are taking the three babby back to new york too lady to rest my pary are with the father who lost his children ; i am truley sorry for your lots

By '54' I mean '57.'
~60.

63, i don't work at skadden -- i was just surprised that the person who claimed that there is a difference between biglaw firms (suggesting that 2Ls ought to still choose cravath - seen in post 54, responding to 49, responding to 48) did so by making skadden seem like a better option.

Curious as to whether this will matter at all for the numerous Chicago shops and others that give bonuses based solely on hours (e.g., nothing if you bill less than 2000, and then bonus at 50 or 100 hour increments from 2000 on up). You'd think they could pay the same bonuses as the last several years (most didn't do a "special" bonus, they stuck with the same hours-based system) since they'll be paying a lot fewer bonuses this year, but who knows.

Quinn has to match Skadden or change its system to Boise -- I'd be 100% with that, although their rates seem very high. Larger than Average Litigation shops of the world, Unite!

14: nobody took the contigency on that case, except maybe a couple who did not put in many hours on it (thereby not really getting huge bonus payout).

Boies is going to Jamaica this weekend, like every year, for its annual retreat/elections of new partners.

Boies, Schiller & Flexner

1L's: $2500/wk
2/3L's: $3250/wk
1st Year Attorney: $168k salary + bonus (30% of total hours x billing rate of $370/hr)
Jamaica trip for the entire firm, including a spouse, partial matching 401k (rarity among big firms these days).

The total calculation for billable hours is adjusted for actual billings, but has rarely been adjusted downward materially (more than 20 hours) for any associate ( I know of none).

Contingency case salary option is not widely given or participated in, but it does exist.

If you billed 1600 hours as a 1st year associate, you received $199.8k in total comp. Most people billed over 2000 hours this year ($222k in total comp). This is not a lie.

This is not more than Wachtell, however.

isn't the 30% of hours discounted because most cases are billed at discounted rates? i thought it was something like (30% of total hours X billing rate X (1 - % average discount)), so first year would be (.3 x 2000 X 370 X .9)= 199,800

Real lawyers, that is to say lawyers who try lawsuits, are again, and as intended, back on top. Make work paper shufflers beware.

70 - you obviously have a small penis.

The Jamaica thing is overblown. It's nice, for sure. But you get there at noon on Friday and leave after the firm meeting on Sunday. Meantime, you try to feed your family on the too low food allowance the firm provides. In the end, it winds up costing lawyers money.

I am a mid-level at Quinn. I am actively engaged in recruiting. If Quinn simply matches half-Skadden, I will tell all the people I interview to go to Boies. Seriously, why go to Quinn over Boies if Boies pays tens of thousands of dollars more?

73--why go to quinn over boies period?

Boies comp system was overhauled this past year to correct the issues identified above regarding contingency, pro bono, etc.

Now an associate can elect to treat any case like a billable case for bonus calculation. So if you work on a contingency fee case and you elect to have it treated as a billable case, you can get the normal bonus calculation. But, if you elect against contigency you do not share in the upside if the case hits.

It is now a fair system that has finally worked out the obvious problems it had over the past few years.

Firm retreat is nice, and paying for food is cheaper than airfare and two nights at the Ritz.

74 - meh. Six in one, half dozen in the other. But if one pays tens of thousands of dollars less then it's a no-brainer.

-73

75: Don't forget the awesome swag. Autographed copies of David's book for all!

Since the bonus formula is tied directly to the hours worked, the question is whether associates are getting the kinds of hours they've gotten in the past. Most the associates I onow at the NY and DC offices are working significantly fewer hours this year, and, thus, their bonus plummeted or vanished. Half-Skadden is better than no Skadden at all.

The rest of it is just blather to make it look like BSF isn't affected by the economy.

Since the bonus formula is tied directly to the hours worked, the question is whether associates are getting the kinds of hours they've gotten in the past. Most the associates I onow at the NY and DC offices are working significantly fewer hours this year, and, thus, their bonus plummeted or vanished. Half-Skadden is better than no Skadden at all.

The rest of it is just blather to make it look like BSF isn't affected by the economy.

20/22 I think you mean mind bottling like when your mind gets trapped in a bottle.

At least David won Gore v. Bush. And hired a famous author from Yale that passed the bar on her first try.

Correction: Bush v. Gore

Bonus tied to billables is a beautiful system. You either get more money for more work, or more free time for less work. (Unless you're forced to do non-billable work, or forced to be in the office when you don't have work to do. As a Boies mid-level, I've never had either problem. Maybe others have, but I haven't.) I would never choose a lockstep system.

Bonus tied to billables is a beautiful system. You either get more money for more work, or more free time for less work. (Unless you're forced to do non-billable work, or forced to be in the office when you don't have work to do. As a Boies mid-level, I've never had either problem. Maybe others have, but I haven't.) I would never choose a lockstep system.

LAST

Boies is a beautiful system when it works - which it doesn't always. Lots of associates get screwed - the numbers just don't add up and questioning how the formula worked (or didn't) is a no-no. It's always a big question mark what the bonus will be and sometimes, after the bonus is in hand, there's an even bigger question mark.

For instance, someone who bills 2100 might get $68000, while someone who bills 2500 hours might get $20000, even if they're both working on the EXACT same cases and both get excellent reviews.

But don't dare to question - just play nice, bill another 2500 hours next year and hope that in the interim, the powers that be learn their multiplication tables.

I chose BSF over lots of other top firms. The compensation structure. The no bullshit culture (i.e. nobody gives a fuck when they see you and what you're wearing, just as long as you get shit done). And the healthy appetite for risk.

First, this place is not for everyone. If you want to hang out, work on small pieces of cases, and do a bunch of doc review... don't come here.

Second, you will work a million hours. This is not, IMO, a good long-term career path.

But if you want to make lots of money and get some great experience very early on in your career, its a good place to be. You'll work very hard, but you'll get well compensated for it.

I've found that most of the people who practice here are nice enough, and many of them are insanely interesting with very significant experience outside of the realm of law. It's a bit intimidating, but I feel like I made the right choice. This is only my first year, so we'll see.