1 HERE -- LONG TIME READER, FIRST TIME FIRSTER!

SO LONG, ATL! IT'S BEEN REAL, AND IT'S BEEN FUN, AND IT'S BEEN REAL FUN FINALLY ACHIEVING FIRSTDOM. NOW I CAN GO OUT ON A HIGH NOTE.

#2 = epic fail

How is it that these banks can be handed billions of dollars and yet be allowed to assist Heller in violating federal and state laws?

I don't see how they are assisting in any violation. It's the banks money, whether they extend credit to Heller for any purpose is up to them.

The bailout was intended to restore financial stability by recapitalizing banks. The worst thing they could do at this point would be to send more money down into a black hole like Heller where they would never see any return.

WHOA IS ME!

first =)

Guys at my highschool used to epiclly fail when posting about their first time all the time, it was no big deal.

"Regular" people did not earn over 200K a year. If you were earning over 200K a year and cannot afford rent, maybe you should brush up on your money management skills, or downgrade your lifestyle. Credit is extended to people and institutions that are good credit risks, not to failed firms and their spoiled fired associates.

4 - The money that Hellerites want isn't going to Heller, you idiot, it's going to Heller's ex-employees. You know, the people who would otherwise be draining tax dollars on the unemployment line. How's that for a black hole?

HellerEhrman was always doomed to fail. Name sounds like squirrel farts.

Uh, wouldn't (some) of the employee claims be priority claims in BK? So, isn't it possible that a BK would *help* the former employees?

Honestly, if I were as aggrieved as some of these folks seem to be, I'd get the involuntary petition together and filed, just to get their attention.

8:

$100,000 in federal, stae, and local income taxes.

~$3,000 per month ($36,000) for a 1BR place to sleep when not at the office.

$1,500 per year in transit/commuting costs.

~$50,000 per year in student loan payments ($150,000 in principal average, at 6.8% fixed interest).

Gee, those $200,000 salaries sure are extravagant!

first!!!1!1!!

8, you're an idiot/1L who hasn't taken Fed Income Tax if you think your definition of "regular people" are paying for Citi's bailout. Those poor slobs don't pay much in income tax and are therefor not responsible for anything. The poor bastards paying for most of the federal income taxes, on the other hand . . .

9, you don't understand commercial lending.

8-
Many employees of Heller were indeed regular people, i.e., not attorneys. It's not all about the spoiled associates.

larrabee is a twatwaffle.

LMAO at "twatwaffle".

Elie -- props on this. You get your num nums for the day.

Who are these people commenting on this board? It's always sixteen posts on being "first!" like that's special. Then a bunch of jerks post things like, "Stop whining (no matter the situation..." claim to be from Stanford, and insult each other's schools.

Please ATL, is there some way to clean up this board? Most of the comments add nothing (except proof that at least a few lawyers out there live up to the stereotypes for our profession).

#12:

You are either paying way too much for a subway pass if you live in the city, or you are overpaying for a 1BR apartment in the suburbs.

Who are these people commenting on this board? It's always sixteen posts on being "first!" like that's special. Then a bunch of jerks post things like, "Stop whining (no matter the situation..." claim to be from Stanford, and insult each other's schools.

Please ATL, is there some way to clean up this board? Most of the comments add nothing (except proof that at least a few lawyers out there live up to the stereotypes for our profession).

12: I hear ya. Just think if you have a kid.

"Firm formerly known as..."

So they're still a firm, but no longer known as Heller Ehrman?

21, depends on whether 12 works late enough to frequently get a car home, how many weekends s/he has to go into the office, and whether general cabbing around NYC is included in the $1,500 a year estimate. I think $1,000 is probably more realistic, but the point is stark: there's not a lot of fat in the associate budget until the loans are gone.

12

your taxes are right but
how the heck are you paying 50k a year in student loans? that would pay off a 200k loan in under 5 years even assuming your entire loans were private and at 7% fixed rate (a ridiculous assumption)..and repayment plans can be up to 10-20 years long.

further-the average student loan debt from undergrad plus law school together is not 150k...most people had help from their parents for part of it or had savings for part of it.

yes..you pay less if you pay faster-but its your choice to pay that fast.

Why is 7% a ridiculous assumption? My private loans are at 12%.

Obviously this plaintiff landlord is going after Heller for breaching a lease. This is probably because Heller's collection of A/R is slowing down considerably, which now means that payment obligations owed to ex-employees (who have been waiting patiently for an "orderly dissolution") are likely no closer to being fulfilled than when the firm first announced the dissolution. What are the options for the employees?
The "sitting around in good faith" approach doesn't seem to be working....

26: why wouldn't you pay the debt down as fast as possible, given that interest rates and the market are currently in the toilet? The most efficient investment a recent law grad can make is in decimating their principal balances.

And if you think the average student loan debt isn't around $150k, you're high. It was $80,000 . . . FIVE years ago, back in 2003.(http://www.abanet.org/legalservices/downloads/lrap/lrapfinalreport.pdf)

12%? How much principal?

"you'd think that Citigroup at least would be a bit more willing to meet its obligations to regular people, since regular people just bailed them out:"

Why would we want to get behind this? We can't even get our firms to pay decent bonuses (see Cravath et al.).

29, you should read for maximum effect: the $80k was only for law--there was an additional $20k average undergrad debt on top of that. Again, still back in 2003.

12- A lot of law graduates owe over 150K in student loans and earn nowhere near a biglaw salary. Also, woe to those who think they are entitled to $1500 a month in transportation costs and a $3,000 a month studio. It's called a MetroCard and the outer boroughs, look into it. Bottom line is that you and your firm are market failures. Why should the banks vis a vis the American taxpayers have to continue to fund your extravagant lifestyle?

It's a black hole because that money would never be repaid to the bank. That's the definition of a "bad loan," and is one of the principal causes of the bank solvency crisis.

Wow, it's amazing how boring this site is when people aren't bitching about bonuses or gossipping about sexual harassment suits.

12 is an idiot. I know people with 150k in loans but they don't pay 50k a year in loan payments like he suggests. They pay a lot and they blow most of their BIGLAW salaries but honestly they also are financially incompetent. They'll blow 2k a month on clothes and shopping. Another 2k on going out and eating. I mean they just aren't good at saving money. They make money and they immediately spend it.

Um, hello? Those banks need that money so they can give their CEOs $10 million bonuses like Merrill.

I've always found it funny that the BIGLAW and T14 people on this board complaining about their poverty are also the most fortunate law students and lawyers in the country. For every one of you there are five attorneys who are unemployed or working for 50k doing insurance defense or for a small firm. Imagine what happens to those kids, many of whom went to equally expensive Tier II and III private schools and have similar debt loads. For a HLS or Penn grad to complain is just amazing and shows that people have no perspective.

I've always found it funny that the BIGLAW and T14 people on this board complaining about their poverty are also the most fortunate law students and lawyers in the country. For every one of you there are five attorneys who are unemployed or working for 50k doing insurance defense or for a small firm. Imagine what happens to those kids, many of whom went to equally expensive Tier II and III private schools and have similar debt loads. For a HLS or Penn grad to complain is just amazing and shows that people have no perspective.

I originally took out around 24k in private loans with a 5% interest rate from Sallie Mae. Despite my paying more than the minimum for the past couple of years, I currently owe Sallie Mae over 30k. At the end of my 10 year loan payment I will have paid around 3-4 times more than I borrowed. I always knew I'd have to spend 1k or more a month on loans for decades for my private and federal loans, but no one explained to me that SM would more than double my interest rate and my bills would keep increasing despite my timely repayment. I have serious doubts as to whether taking out six figures to go to law school was worth the investment.

Again, DEBT. The juniors certainly aren't rich. First and second years have a substantial amount of debt left to pay and probably little in the way of job options. They're going to have to get a forebearance and watch the interest accrue. When they get their 50k a year jobs, they'll finally be able to make the interest payments provided they live with their parents and take the bus. By the time they're 50, everything they earn will finally be theirs.

40 - you're an idiot. You could have done the math and figured out whether LS was a good investment BEFORE going to LS. Why are so many lawyers like you? You just look at the bright side of the law, BIGLAW partners pulling in seven figures. You never take into account how many lawyers are out there, how long it takes to make partner, how few people actually do and whether you actually would want to do so. Hell, go look at Labor Department figures for average lawyer salary. I believe it's only around 80k to 100k - now think whether it makes sense to take 150k plus in loans to make that much money when you are paying high interest.

12, you're paying way too much in student loans.

$150k at 6.8% repayment over 10 years means
~$15k of principal + $10k of interest = ~$25k per year.

If you choose to pay an extra $25k per year toward the principal to pay down the loan in five years, that's your prerogative but don't complain about how your salary doesn't go far. You can choose to pay $100k/year in students loans and waaaaaa look that $300k a year salary doesn't go far either!

You're also overpaying on rent and transportation (subway pass is <$125/month), and miscalculating your taxes. Hint: social security stops after $100k, and the federal bracket of 33% kicks in at $164k. Not to mention that your state and local taxes are deductible.

The average first year associate in 2005 was paid $150k total. To follow your calculations would mean either that person was living in poverty or that the cost of living rose 30% in 3 years.

Whoa is me!

And how do you idiots all end up with such high interest rates. I graduated with about 70k in loan debt but most of it was from Stafford loans. I consolidated them at 2.5% interest. I know Pres. Bush changed the way they calculate rates so now most people pay higher fixed rates, but still. I've noticed that a lot of people who have high loan debt are just idiots financially. They didn't consolidate properly. They didn't investigate their loan options. You don't have to run to private loans right away. There are other options. I don't think idiots know what they're doing.

42, what's your point? do you really want the juniors to fail? mark my words you'll be paying off 40's loans in the form of a bailout when the student loan crises finally hits (and it cometh).

42, at the time I thought it was a good investment. But frankly I didn't know all that much about loans and credit at the time; we don't all grow up with wealthy parents who know about investments and use credit cards, and I didn't realize my interest rate was going to more than double. I also didn't think I was going to want to buy a house or have a family in my early thirties and wouldn't want to be in that much debt to do those things. After a couple years in biglaw and with the economy tanking, I'm allowed to have my current doubts that a six figure debt isn't worth it.

Don't worry 44, you'll soon be paying for the idiots' mistakes when sallie mae and every other large student lender gets its bailout. The student loan crises cometh.

44, you had a variable rate loan and were able to lock in a fixed rate when the variable rate was at a low point. The Democrats in Congress wanted to make loans more affordable and appealing to risk-averse students so they set a fixed interest rate after 2006. But the rate they set was 6.8%, which was low at the time but obviously not low now.
Thanks Democrats!

44- "Hi, Joan King!"

48, if it makes you feel better, after 44 pays off his loans, he gets to pay off everyone elses (see future student loan bailout).

EDUCATION BUGGLE PWNED!

48, if it makes you feel better, after 44 pays off his loans, he gets to pay off everyone elses (see future student loan bailout).

EDUCATION BUBBLE PWNED!

Hey 38, why don't you shut the hell up?

44, you can't consolidate a private loan, duh. Maybe you should think before you start calling people names. (My federal loans are consolidated at under 3% as well btw.) I didn't have any other loan options, Sallie Mae was the only lender that was willing to give me a private loan because I couldn't get a cosigner.

44, you can't consolidate a private loan, duh. Maybe you should think before you start calling people names. (My federal loans are consolidated at under 3% as well btw.) I didn't have any other loan options, Sallie Mae was the only lender that was willing to give me a private loan because I couldn't get a cosigner.

Elie, can you do an article about 42 and 44 paying off 40's loans after they finish paying off theirs? There's obviously a BIG EDUCATION BUBBLE and people are borrowing way more than they can afford to pay back. 42 and 44 are going to have to bailout the lenders when 40 and the like.

Please publish said story, tyia.

Elie, can you do an article about 42 and 44 paying off 40's loans after they finish paying off theirs? There's obviously a BIG EDUCATION BUBBLE and people are borrowing way more than they can afford to pay back. 42 and 44 are going to have to bailout the lenders when 40 and the like default.

Please publish said story, tyia.

I'd also love 44 to explain how "not running to private loans" can happen when tuition alone is >40k. Though at least I got a PLUS loan rather than a private loan with a fixed interest rate... of 7.75%.

Simple 57, if your parents pay for your education, then you can't exceed the 18,500 federal cap. What kind of RETARD is born without loaded parents?

I will gladly take a bailout. - 40

38 people are starving and dying of aids in Africa, so you can't complain about your 50k salary and 150k debt.

I had just completed my first year at Brobeck Phleger & Harrison (for you youngins' out there for whom simply "Brobeck" wouldn't ring a bell) when that firm dissolved. It was the same story then as is now playing out at Heller.

Eventually, Brobeck declared bankruptcy, and Brobeck's major creditor, Citibank, got its man named as bankruptcy trustee. Under California law, if you don't give 60 or 90 days' notice before doing a mass "closing-shop" type layoff, you owe 90 days' of salary in damages to each employee. Brobeck closed on two weeks' notice, so each employee had a claim to 3 months' salary, from of counsel and associates to staffers.

Well, the bankruptcy trustee did his best to keep us down (since we were all, by virtue of that law, now creditors of Brobeck) and to minimize payment. He basically said, "accept this settlement amount (about .10 on the dollar) or else I won't settle with you and I'll fight the validity of your claim." You are probably are thinking that .10 on the dollar is about right for bankruptcy, but Brobeck had a substantial amount of money out there to be paid to it as a result of a matter we had won on a contingency fee basis (it was truly huge, which probably explains why the firm took such a payment arrangement in the first place). There was other money due to Brobeck as well. In anycase, the feeling was that the trustee played hardball with a group of creditors that individually did not have the ability to really fight back, all in order to benefit Citibank.

So, Hellerites, be prepared.

*turns 42 and 44 upside down and shakes them to pay for 40's bailout*

I had the same situation as 40 -- Sallie Mae is terrible. I took the loans out at 5%, within a year of graduation, they were at close to 11%. And during that time I (a) started earning money and (b) started paying it off: one would think this would make me a better credit risk, not worse.

The truth of the matter is that Sallie Mae entices you to take out private loans with them, but then jacks the private interest rate up as high and as fast as they can. And I don't recall ever receiving a letter or notice that this was happening; since it was variable, they just increased it.....

I threw every extra dollar I had at those Sallie Mae loans for 2 years (including 100% of my bonus). Happy to say I got out from under them.

And $150,000 in loans is very easy to hit, esp. if you have undergrad debt remaining. It just gets worse very quickly with the double-digit interest adding on.

Ps. I have other private law school and undergrad loans from other private lenders and the highest of those was several percentage points below Sallie Mae.

I knew people in LS who had no idea what they were doing when they were getting financial aid. They'd miss deadlines for Stafford loans. They wouldn't know about Perkins even though they qualified. So they'd miss everything and have no choice but to get private loans. And then they wouldn't even investigate private loans that much so they'd just take the first one they got.

Some people are definitely just bad at money and I think you'll find that most of the people in BIGLAW complaining about their loan debt are in that boat. Like my friend who has probably 175k in loans and works in BIGLAW yet the first thing he did after his 2L summer was blow his entire savings on a trip to Europe and an expensive watch.

I'm just saying that a lot of people are horrible with money.

58, that was money.

64, that isn't most people. I have BIG DEBT, did all the financial aid stuff right, and did not take a bar trip. if I were laid off as a first year, i'd still be ruined.

Oh yeah, and the other memory of the end of Brobeck was the difficulty in getting that last paycheck and reimbursement check from Brobeck ("the bank won't let us") and then literally running down the street to cash those checks at the bank on which they were drawn so there would be no risk of it being returned (some people had have them bounce). Fun times!

--#61

Also let's face the simple fact that no one wants to talk about: most grads of T14's are from well-off families. At least 50% of my t14 classmates weren't paying a dime for law school. They'd tell me they were getting a "loan" from their parents. And just looking at the types of cars many students were driving, you knew that people were rich. Moreover, so many students attended preppy high schools that costs 20k plus that you knew they were from money.

Just in my section there was a guy who's grandfather was a prominent politician in the 80's who is now worth over 250 million. Also several children of BIGLAW partners. Old money types who have had money for generations. And these are just the ones I knew about. The other day I saw a marriage article in the NYTimes and the girl went to my LS. The article said her dad was some major investment banker. Guy must be worth over 50 million. I had no idea she was that rich.

So let's just keep this in mind whenever someone brings up BIGLAW associates plight. A lot of them didn't pay a dime for law school. Hell, once you take out the minorities in BIGLAW I guarantee you that a majority didn't pay a dime for LS.

68 is a retard

ONE! ONE FAILED FIRM!! AH AH AH AH AH!!!!!!!

Look at all the legal work a failure creates!! We can count all the fees!!! AH AH AH!!!!

- Count Layoffula

69 is a rich kid who didn't pay anything for LS.

68, a majority of white people in law school don't personally pay for law school? Because you happen to see a wedding announcement of some kid of a banker? You're retarded.

I wish

69 (and white)

Yeah I don't know what T-14 law school 68 attended, but the parking lot at my T-14 (obviously not NYU or Columbia) was full of junkers (mine in particular was loud and non-trustworthy). In our small section I could identify a hanful of students that had wealthy backgrounds, but for the overwhelming majority of us student loans were part of the package. Certainly no where near 50% had everything paid for by their parents.

here's a tip: get fixed interest loans

Fee free to use that time why you buy a house, too.

"Fee free to use that time why you buy a house, too."

Elie, please stop posting as a guest, your complete lack of grammar skills calls you out.

"Sixty-three percent of all undergraduates enrolled in 2003–04 received some type of financial aid."

That's all institutions. Imagine what it's like a elite grad schools. Could be only 50% receive aid.

layoffula is fucking genius.

Back in 2001, my friend and I applied to law school together. He chose a lower tiered school on full scholarship and I chose otherwise. We both went biglaw, and he was able to blow his money more freely than me. While in law school, I thought he was an idiot for passing up T14. When we started working, I felt like a douchebag when he bought his condo. Now, looking back, all that shit didn't matter.

"Imagine what it's like a elite grad schools. "

Just speaking for my wife she paid for her "elite" MBA notwithstanding that her parents paid for her undergraduate degree. Comparing undergrad college aid (particularly given that many public colleges have cheaper tuition for undergrad) to "elite" graduate programs is a non-sequitir.

Here's a hint to all you hippies (idiots), most Americans that are successful and productive have to work and sacrifice for it. If you aren't successful, its likely your failing, and not as a result of being held back by the "man."

77, a far larger number of undergraduate institutions are dirt cheap and thus fewer students need grants/loans, especially when that statistic includes two-year community colleges and part-time students.

Why didn't you quote:
"Eighty-three percent of all undergraduates attending private not-for-profit 4-year institutions received some type of financial aid in 2003-04"

Hope that helps, genius.

The more "elite" and expensive the school, the more people receive financial aid. Imagine that.

80 - out of touch with reality.

Fitzsimmons said that legacies comprise about 12 to 13 percent of recent classes admitted to Harvard College

83 - needs to move out of my country, we have enough freelaoders.

-80

Over fifty-five percent of undergraduates receive financial aid, and the university meets one-hundred percent of demonstrated need, with an average financial aid package of $22,000 and about seventy percent of aid distributed in the forms of grants or scholarships.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgetown_University

84, LOL, the same Harvard Crimson article also states:

"At Harvard, SAT scores for Harvard legacy students are “virtually identical” to those of the rest of the student body, Harvard College Dean of Admissions William R. Fitzsimmons ’67 said."

Smart people who are able to get into Harvard also have smart kids who are able to get in. Intelligence may be partly genetic, imagine that.

hth

The point is that 12 percent of a class is legacy they very likely from loaded families and don't have to get any financial aid. On top of the 12 percent you probably have another 25 percent that is rich and has their parents paying so right off the bat you have at least 37 who don't get any financial aid. This I assume is typical of most elite schools, 40 to 50 percent aren't paying a dime.

85 - not only out of touch with reality, but can't think and only repeats what he heard from Uncle Joe and Cousin Bob just because it sounds so cool. You know it's true. Everything you said so far fits the bill.

88 - clueless. Even wealthy families may not pay for grad school. I'm not a bum and am saving for my kids' college, I don't plan on paying for their grad school.

What's up with the clas-envy crap on here tonight? Are people stupid or just ignorant? Does anyone really believe that 50% of T-14 law schools are full or "rich kids?"

88, not all Harvard graduates are "loaded" when their children get in to Harvard college. Barack Obama was legacy you genius.

You also pulled that "25 percent" number out of your ass.

Please stop you're embarrassing yourself.

85, yawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwn.

- 83

"but can't think and only repeats what he heard from Uncle Joe and Cousin Bob"

Are they rich? Wouldn't that be Uncle Thurston Howell (look it up idiot) and Cousin Carter Pewterschmidt?. Joe and Bob are old hick names.

88, you should know that 80% of Harvard Law School students receive financial aid.

Your assumptions are asinine.

Went to a public top ten. Been making market for the last five years. I have not paid off my loans (which are less than $54k by now) but have a few hundred g's in the bank. I am not alone. Live within your means.

Latham lay-offs on the way. Heads up.

93, I know right. It's not like old hicks never said anything like:

"most Americans that are successful and productive have to work and sacrifice for it. If you aren't successful, its likely your failing"

or

"move out of my country, we have enough freelaoders"

You can take the homeboy out of the hood, but you can't take the hood out of the homeboy!

In all seriousness, for those who have been practiciing six years or less, can people list city, law school loan balance, and approximate net worth?

Under such an analysis, we can see if it makes more sense to move to LA vs. NYC vs. Chicago vs. SF vs. Texas.

Ellie --

So there you are, tubby. Look like a bucket of lard on a bad day. You baby gorilla. Why don't you work in a zoo, and stop bothering people? Got a call yesterday from Baskin Robbins. They said that they're down to only five flavors. You're swelling up as I talk to you.

And you posters. You think its funny I called Ellie a fat pig. You have the personality of a dead moth. Why dont you go ride a horse into the mountains and stop bothering people.

>

We live in one f---ed up country indeed where a comment that:

"most Americans that are successful and productive have to work and sacrifice for it. If you aren't successful, its likely your failing"

is controversial.

What do you want? Do nothing and expect everything?

Maybe we shoudl all commit crimes, get pregnant at 18, not pay taxes and expect the rest of the world to fund our lifestyles.

Idiocy.

I went to GULC and I didn't see a cent of financial aid. You can't get aid if you don't reveal financial info on your parents - no matter what your age - and my parents wouldn't turn the forms in. It's a stupid requirement because it punishes people for their parent's behavior. Now I still have almost 140k in loans after paying more than the minimum for the past couple years. I don't own a car or a condo or a louis vuitton purse so I don't think I'm living extravagantly. I take public transportation everywhere, buy my clothing at Ann Talor Loft on sale, and buy groceries with coupons. But no matter what I do my loans seem to keep growing as the interest rate on my private Sallie Mae loans goes up. Loans suck.

I went to GULC and I didn't see a cent of financial aid. You can't get aid if you don't reveal financial info on your parents - no matter what your age - and my parents wouldn't turn the forms in. It's a stupid requirement because it punishes people for their parent's behavior. Now I still have almost 140k in loans after paying more than the minimum for the past couple years. I don't own a car or a condo or a louis vuitton purse so I don't think I'm living extravagantly. I take public transportation everywhere, buy my clothing at Ann Talor Loft on sale, and buy groceries with coupons. But no matter what I do my loans seem to keep growing as the interest rate on my private Sallie Mae loans goes up. Loans suck.

well 68, i'm white, a 1st year in biglaw, and 50k in debt. if i get laid off, i'm fucked for life

well 68, i'm white, a 1st year in biglaw, and 150k in debt. if i get laid off, i'm fucked for life

sallie mae's monster cock is raping my ass, hth

100, looks like you didn't get the memo:
1. working hard is evil. "Profit" is a bad word.
2. people should live off the government dole because then they are punishing the evil people known as "the rich" (see #1).

More students than not that I knew at my T14 law school had wealthy attorney or ibanking dads and stay at home moms, and had law school paid for or subsidized by their families. I don't know whether that's a function of who I knew at law school or not, but it is the way it was. The middle class people I knew who didn't fit in that category, like myself, wound up with ridiculous debts and private loans, and will be paying 1k+ a month into their 50s. Elite law schools are for the rich; the middle class people like myself who attempt to go get screwed with debt.

107, what you're trying to say is: "whoa is me!"

Or, that for the current price of tuition, elite law schools are a stupid investment for people without wealthy families who are paying full price.

This whole post goes to show that lawyers know nothing about math or conservation. First, 12, 150K at 6.8% a year for 30 years equals $972 per month, which is less than $12K per year. Secondly, you can consolidate those loans at a much lower rate now. Thirdly, $3K is steep for a one bedroom--or are you one of these New York tossers who "has" to live in "the city" so you have 3 starbucks within 50 feet of you. Face it--Manhattan is just an outdoor shopping mall now, devoid of any of the artists, musicians, painters, etc. who used to make it interesting and edgy. You want edgy, you want quirky--go to Brooklyn, go to Queens, go to Philly, go to London, (where there are rich and destitute cheek by jowl) but for Gods sakes do not go to New York. Go to freaking Bangkok, which blows away New York as a city. Reject New York! Reject the Target-ization of the U.S! Reject Applebees in Times Square! Reject theme bars in the Village! Reject Subways in the East Village! Reject Avenue C resembling Fraternity Row! Stand Up! Fight the Power! Resist gentrification. Fight capitalism! And whatever you do, get a lower interest rate.

109 that's smart, let's allocate educational resources based on parental wealth. Who gives a fuck about merit.

What? No cash! Guess the shareholders pocketed whatever the firm received for the sale of the money laundering "unit" to Gunderson Detmer. Hopefully the landlord plead R.I.C.O in their complaint. Well they can always amend it when the feds move in.

Whoops! My error. I forgot many of them made big contributions to the DNC, Clinton and Obama to avert such a possibility. Just like Miles Ehrlich, the former head of the San Francisco white collar crime division who, after learning of Heller Ehrman's nefarious activities took a witness/victims information, left the DOJ and parlayed that into a gig representing Marcia Bruggeman Hatch... as her criminal defense attorney. BTW- Ms. Hatch's narcotics trafficking/money laundering client certainly has liquidity. Perhaps he can help a few law firms and out of work lawyers with a cash injection... That would get everybody back in the holiday spirit. Eh?

http://www.hellervermin.com

How the hell law students at T14s end up with $50-100k in debt blows my mind. It's a very simple choice: free ride at a lower ranked school. If you're gonna have a cock sizing contest about your HYS JD, you sure as hell better quit whining about the debt.

I was admitted into one of the big three as a marginal candidate. I got a full ride to a T14. Not hard to figure out which choice was the smart one. I have the same Biglaw job the more "prestigious" school would have landed me, no debt, a house, and money put away for retirement and my kids' college tuition. Oh, and I'm 26.

This ain't a bragging contest, fellas. I'm sure all of you could demonstrate your superior LSATs, GPAs, etc. in true autoadmit fashion. I just think many of you are being stupid about this.

79 nailed it

I didn't say anything about allocating educational resources based on parental wealth. My point was that for 50k a year for 3 years, elite law schools are poor investments for people whose parents aren't subsidizing their lives .

I didn't say anything about allocating educational resources based on parental wealth. My point was that for 50k a year for 3 years, elite law schools are poor investments for people whose parents aren't subsidizing their lives .

110 - you can't consolidate a private loan. Law school tuition at top schools is over 30k and federal loans covers 18.5k only, so private law school loans are a necessity for those of us who aren't spoiled rich kids.

Look, if you'll need some extra $$ just ask Marc Dreier. He has a plan that'll net you $50M in Canada. Minor impersonation required.

117, of course you can consolidate a private loan. You just can't consolidate it with your federal loans, so basically you have to keep around two consolidated loans.

Google "consolidate private loan" for more details.

I scrolled through all the comments just to see if Count Layoffula had posted.

Imagine my excitement to find a front-page article on ATL about Heller Ehrman with over 100 comments. Then imagine my disappointment to discover that over 90% of the comments are off-topic posts about student loans. Way to go, threadjackers.

What is the actual situation over at 499 Park? If you have to be in court on a matter, do you have the staff to get the research done, to draft the briefs?

I read that the Feds are looking through every briefcase leaving? Have individuals been questioned? What's the screen for attorney-client privilege and the Fed investigation?

Are clients calling and pulling matters?

I went to a top 10 law school, I'm white, and my parents made MAYBE $20K/year while I was in high school, college, and law school. Sure, there are lots of rich kids, but there are plenty of middle class and lower middle class students at the top schools too.

That said, I went to "the law school formerly known as Boalt" precisely because I didn't want $150K in debt coming out. Somehow, I managed to pay for undergrad and law school on my own, to graduate with no more than $50K in debt, and to now find my $400/month student loan payments (all federal loans, all at under 3%) to be more than comfortable on my BigLaw salary.

I'd be in bad shape if I'd been at Heller, but it would be because of my $7K/month mortgage payment, not those student loans.

NUT BOY

It's nutty!

the day the comments turned intot talking about loans, interest rates, and taxes is the day I'm done with ATL.

Idiots. Nobody cares your student loans or your (lousy) financial management skills. File bankruptcy if you can't handle your money.

Does somebody have a copy of the landlord's complaint against Heller Ehrman? Looking for some real comments here.

I love this sequence:

Dude 1: "If you were earning over 200K a year and cannot afford rent, maybe you should brush up on your money management skills, or downgrade your lifestyle,"

Dude 2: In fairness, I pay $50k a year in student loans.

Dude 3: That's ridiculous! Unless you're trying to pay off all of your loans in 3 or 4 years.

Dude 2: Well, yeah, that's what I was doing, and that's why I have no savings for rent today.

Dude 1: As we said, you have poor money management skills.

I hope that Elie is watching Boston Legal right now so he can wait until next week to confirm that the rumors of the collapse of Crane, Poole and Schmidt are true (after he repeats firm management's denials for the preceding week).

91 - what an idiot. obama didn't go to harvard college as a legacy. he didn't go to harvard college, period.

96 -- WHAT support do you have for the claimed Latham layoffs?

Debt isn't necessarily a bad thing. Improperly maintained debt finances can lead to severe financial hardships. But, if controlled, you should not worry. Debt obviously means you have to mitigate expenses in the short run.

You don't need to earn 200K to pay back 6 figure loan debt. A higher salary allows for quicker payments. However, if you are laid off and you must take a job paying substantially less, you will have to take that job and simply restructure your loan repayments. It sucks, but when you take out debt to finance graduate school you are essentially paying (with interest) your salary to attend.

Also keep in mind you might be eligible for student loan interest deductions (although they might phase-out after a certain threshold). Before you take the bonus or a higher salary (which firms get to deduct), you might want to check to see if your after tax income is higher with a lower GI as oppose to a higher.

There are a ton of things you can do to lower the overall impact of students loan and income taxes.
-Lower expenses
-figure out ways to lower tax liability
-extend loan payments (I mean if you assume you'll be making more money 10 years from now, extra interest payments are not going to be as severe then as they are now)
-Invest in savings accounts to offset interest payments in the future or nontaxable savings accounts (Roth IRA, for example) and some bonds.

nice fantasy world 131, but when we're talking about 150k debt and a 40k job, you're barely going to be able to pay the interest on that bitch, let alone touch the principal. welcome to poor town, population you.

I would also like to know about said Latham layoffs 96

no 123, that makes no sense. boalt is about 30k a year now.

LOL at 123 bragging about his low student loan payments then buying an overpriced crapper of a house in the bay area. good luck selling that pos for half of what you paid for it.

135: Exactly! Yeah - really shrewd, 123.

130 / 133, don't encourage 96.

Hold on my friends. You're saying someone made a whole law firm disappear?

It sounds like magic!

An impressive feat, but not on as grand a scale as a bailed out bank turning $700 billion into an illusion.

138 raises an interesting point. why no bailout $$ for biglaw?

a cool half billion probably would have saved thelen and heller.

Where is a good plaintiff's counsel for this case. If I were an ex-Hellerite, I would gladly give up 30% of whatever I could get (not much probably) just to fuck these guys over. Come on, someone file an involuntary petition.

"Section 507(a)(4) of the Code grants a fourth priority to “allowed unsecured claims for wages, salaries, or commissions, including vacation, severance, and sick leave pay”' earned within 180 days before the petition, but limits such priority claims to $10,950. "

No justice, no peace. Time to take over Heller's offices: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/12/08/national/main4653281.shtml?source=RSSattr=U.S._4653281

Latham Partners are set to unveil multiple layoffs at the end of this week, corporate and litigation are set to hardest hit. Keep it on the down low guys.

is this really a law blog? Did Mystal go to law school? Exactly what obligation do you think banks have to extend ADDITIONAL CREDIT to a bankrupt debtor so that it can pay rent or make severance payments to workers? How is that assisting in violating the law?

144, Heller still has some assets -- chiefly outstanding billables, but also IT infrastructure, office furniture, etc. Those assets could and should be used be used to pay severance and comply with THE LAW (WARN Act, state law, etc.). Citi and BofA lent to an insolvent client; they should eat the loss; that's the way lending (should) work.

68's question would make a great poll/post. Here are my stats:

I went to GULC, clerked for a year and now work in a foreign office of a V5 firm. I have had just over two years of biglaw salary. I do not spend extravagantly. I have one child and my spouse is not employed.

When I graduated from law school, I had about $190,000 in combined undergraduate and law school debt ($30,000 undergraduate, $150,000 law school, $10,000 bar exam). I have paid off about $90,000 in debt over the past two years.

For all those who mock people for their high-end rents, you have to consider that an apartment relatively near the office is often a must-have in order to be able to do your job as a biglaw associate. That big salary comes with very long hours. It's not fair to call people spoiled for wanting to spend the 1 or 2 hours per day that they have (after sleeping and working) with their family instead of on a train.

146, there are plenty of cheap places within 30 minutes commute to Midtown or Downtown NYC. The east river is not that wide.

Whoa is me!

"nice fantasy world 131, but when we're talking about 150k debt and a 40k job, you're barely going to be able to pay the interest on that bitch, let alone touch the principal. welcome to poor town, population you."

I'm not saying it's ideal. But it is possible. Recalibrate your loan payment scheme. If your loan has fixed interest rates (say 6.8%), it's well within reason. Just check out one of the many loan calculators online. Perhaps you should consider supplementing your income with another job or investments. At 40K, your tax burden is substantially reduced.

It sucks, we agree there. But if your not on capitol hill (fighting the good fight), I don't see where complaining on a blog will take you.

word on the street is that reed smith is looking likely to do a heller. they are struggling to get an increase in their credit facility and will not be able to pay bonuses as a result.

95% of the previous posts were related to student loans, debt financing, etc. and while it is an important subject for everyone, especially nowadays, it isn't relevant to the current issue, which is: how to best get Heller to pay the employees. The only intelligent post on the subject has been from 61. I'd like to hear from 61 and other Brobeck survivors on what course they think employees should now take especially now that a landlord is suing Heller for $85m. Are the employees better off in bankruptcy?

OK - 99% of the previous posts have all been related in some way or another about student loans, financing, etc., and while these are important issues, especially nowadays, you're all missing the main point here, which is: how to get Heller to pay the employees what they are owed. I'd like to hear more from 61 and other Brobeck survivors on what they think the ex-hellerites should now do. Given that a landlord is now suing Heller for $85m, what chance do the employees now have of seeing some $$? Are they better off in a bankruptcy?

"Are they better off in a bankruptcy?"

At least they'll get some information then. Don't know what the secured position of the lender(s) is, so don't know if it will be "better" for ex-employees, but it will let in some sunshine.

I'm not a banker/corporate guy, but somebody straighten me out here. Why would a bank lend a failed law firm money to pay its ex-employees? Does it have any duty to do so? Wouldn't such a loan turn out to be the same type of ill-advised loan that put the banks in hot water to begin with? This is the same scenario that's playing out with those employees staging the sit-in or whatever in Illinois, and I'm sure it will continue to repeat itself.

I don't think it's a matter of the bank lending more money to a failed institution. Rather, I think it's a matter of allowing Heller to distribute the AR it collects to its former employees first, and then to its banks and landlords second.

I agree that BK will force the type of financial transparency the firm has been hiding. It will also force all creditors to come to the table at once, which will end this game of "oh good, the banks are paid off, now it's time for me to get my money -- doh!, there's a new landlord claim."

Of course the landlord claims (yes, plural; there's a $31 million claim by the DC landlord filed in SF Superior) are inflated -- they are based on the entire amount of rent due for the entire duration of the lease. Once the landlord's mitigate their damages by re-renting, their claim amount will go down. But, as a former employee myself, it sure knocks the wind out of me to hear all these new claims pop up. I honestly don't know what to do and welcome the sage advice of others. Would a bankruptcy increase the success of going after partners individually? It just seems wrong for them to walk away to their new jobs while many of us are still unemployed and haven't yet been paid all we're owed by Heller.

Number 61 here:

Heller employees should be sure to, when/if Heller files for BK, to make sure that they each file a claim with the BK court. Get your paperwork organized and hang onto it (what were you getting paid at the time of closure, how much vacation time accured, any reimbursements not yet paid?); you may have to prove it up in court. Also, document and keep an eye on your 401k!

The BK trustee will be biased towards the big creditors like BOA and Citigroup. All the Heller associates and employees should band together, form a committee and get joint representation so that the BK trustee doesn't bully you due to unequal positioning. Jane Lowery (Lowry?) at Brobeck was of counsel at that firm (I think) and she really took up the cause of the employees. If you can track her down, you might want to speak to her. There was also a website she started, try Googling for it.

Good luck!

BTW, it was several years before we saw any money. Nothing happened till the BK trustee finished off suing/settling with the partners. Basically, all of their cap accounts were wiped out, and then they each had to pay several hundred thousand. So there is some justice in the world, the greedy bastards.

Number 61 here:

Heller employees should be sure to, when/if Heller files for BK, to make sure that they each file a claim with the BK court. Get your paperwork organized and hang onto it (what were you getting paid at the time of closure, how much vacation time accured, any reimbursements not yet paid?); you may have to prove it up in court. Also, document and keep an eye on your 401k!

The BK trustee will be biased towards the big creditors like BOA and Citigroup. All the Heller associates and employees should band together, form a committee and get joint representation so that the BK trustee doesn't bully you due to unequal positioning. Jane Lowery (Lowry?) at Brobeck was of counsel at that firm (I think) and she really took up the cause of the employees. If you can track her down, you might want to speak to her. There was also a website she started, try Googling for it.

Good luck!

BTW, it was several years before we saw any money. Nothing happened till the BK trustee finished off suing/settling with the partners. Basically, all of their cap accounts were wiped out, and then they each had to pay several hundred thousand. So there is some justice in the world, the greedy bastards.

61/154/155 - Thanks for the input. Apparently former clients are not paying their bills like they used to which as caused creditors like these landlords to seek legal remedies to get paid. No surprise. Former clients would rather hold onto the cash rather than pay a dissolving firm. They'll take their chances in BK Ct, where maybe they won't have to pay 100c on the dollar.

Other than the banks, are there any other creditors who are secured? Where do the employees fall in the priority list of creditors? The concern is that once the banks are paid off, it will be a free for all scramble against the dissolution committee to get paid. How will they prioritze the unsecured claims?

61, you're right about the Brobeck bankruptcy trustee being a puppet, but he was/is the landlords' puppet, not the banks'. The banks had been paid off by the time the landlords took Brobeck into involuntary bankrupty.

I'd guess that the landlord lawsuit against Heller is a prelude to taking Heller to bankruptcy. Probably because the landlord(s) suspects -- as the former employees should but don't seem to realize -- that the Heller dissolution committee hopes/plans to try to walk away from collection efforts as soon as Citi and BofA are paid off, leaving all the unsecured creditors in the cold. Once the banks are paid off, the Heller partners have no financial incentive to keep collecting. Rather, they have a disincentive to hit up their new firms for Jewel v. Boxer money and/or each other for whatever "improper" distributions they made to themselves.

Personally, I think the employees would be much better off if they took Heller into bk asap. However, they'd have to get themselves educated and organized very quickly. If they wait for the landlord(s) to do it, I've got a buck that says they'll be dealing with the same landlord stooges (trustee, financial advisor, and legal counsel) that took over in the Brobeck bankruptcy.

Oh and thanks for the props. Jayne

I see that BofA has given in to the window factory employee's demands.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081209/ap_on_re_us/workers_takeover

Man! After reading all this I sure am glad I did next to no work the last 5 years I was in Hell..... er.

Word is that the banks emptied Heller's bank accounts yesterday - with the landlord suits (SF and DC) it is pretty much a done deal that Heller will have to declare bankruptcy.

If I were still working at Heller as part of the "closing" team, I'd kiss that promise of "one day's bonus for every day worked" away - just like all of Heller's other empty promises to its employees.

http://hellerdrone.wordpress.com/2008/12/11/heller-bankruptcy-imminent/

So the banks are now paid off, and Heller's dissolution committee controls disbursements?

How are they doing on A/R collections?

Not sure if BK is necessary given damages if a BK is filed to a landlord are limited, and landlords know that. This wind-down could still be achieved without a BK filing.

Has anyone modeled out what the outstanding liabilities are for employees, unpaid vendors and to resolve long-term liabilities like leases (assuming a payment of no more than 12 months rent) -- and compared that to a 50% or 60% realization rate on A/R? Is there enough left in the A/R kitty to pay off debts?

162: you make good points and are asking the right questions. For instance, I don't think the landlords would have filed lawsuits this week if they intended to commence a BK proceeding. That said, I think the only people who know the answer to the questions you pose are the Dissolution Committee, who won't share anything with anyone. I suppose you could do some guesstimating based on the rent figures in the landlords' complaints (something like $500k/mo and $700k/mo for DC and SF, times 12 months, equals $14.4M). But I have no idea how much the employee claims equal.

Heller DC - I miss you guys. The new place is good, but it isn't the same as our pleasant office at 1717.

Heller voluntarily filed for bankruptcy on Sunday in the Northern District of California. For more information about the bankruptcy, see the following: Heller Ehrman Files for Bankruptcy (http://netdockets.wordpress.com/2008/12/29/heller-ehrman-files-for-bankruptcy-in-san-francisco/); Heller Ehrman Files First Day Pleadings (http://netdockets.wordpress.com/2008/12/29/heller-ehrman-files-first-day-pleadings/).