Kirkland & Ellis New Vacation Policy: Tastes Great, But Is It Less Filling?
The associates who work at Kirkland & Ellis remain sublimely confident that their firm will pay elite bonuses as opposed to the discount payouts being offered elsewhere.
But in these uncertain economic times, any change in firm policy -- even one that seems positive -- has to be met with skepticism.
Yesterday, our inbox started buzzing as various Kirkland tipsters let us know that the firm has undertaken a massive change in associate vacation policy. At first blush, the revised policy seems ... awesome:
Instead of providing attorneys with a fixed number of vacation days each year, our revised policy will permit attorneys to take time off with pay - for rest and relaxation, or to attend to personal matters - at their discretion, subject only to the Firm's overall performance expectations. Those performance expectations include, most importantly, that our lawyers will provide the highest quality legal work and service to our clients, contribute to the Firm's pro bono programs and participate in non-billable efforts on behalf of the Firm. The revised policy aligns our associate paid time-off protocol with our long-standing practice for partners. We also feel it is consonant with both our Firm's entrepreneurial culture and our associates' desire to manage their own careers and maintain a suitable work/life balance.
Some associates would undoubtedly prefer to have a fixed amount of vacation time to which they are "entitled." But most people enjoy being treated like adults with the maturity to manage their responsibilities. People know how to manage their own time better than law firm managers (wow, I just made a federalist argument).
After the jump, Kirkland associates weigh in on the full memo.
Every move taken by management has to be looked at with a critical eye. Remember, just a few weeks ago Kirkland downsized breakfast in a cost cutting maneuver. One tipster explains the possible downside:
The essence of this new policy is that the firm will save money because they will no longer have to pay associates as much as 5 weeks of accrued vacation time (5 weeks is the max you can accrue) when they leave the firm. Nobody thinks it's a way for the firm to prevent people from taking their vacations. Rather, it's just more not-so-subtle penny-pinching like with the breakfast cutbacks.
The new policy specifies that all vacation accrued in 2008 will still be honored. But after the new year associates will no longer accrue vacation time. That could save the firm some money.
Of course, every associate would be perfectly happy if Kirkland saved some extra cash, so long as they receive the bonuses they've earned from a hardworking and productive year. Another tipster puts plainly what Kirkland associates are worried about:
People are really concerned about whether K&E will hold true to its roots of being a "meritocracy" when it comes time to calculate bonuses. The firm's bankruptcy, intellectual property and litigation practices are doing great, and we've heard nothing suggesting that the firm is struggling. There is no reason why associates who are producing tons of money for the firm just as they have done in previous years (i.e., high billers and/or above the class) should get screwed because Cravath and Davis Polk had a bad year. K&E isn't a lockstep firm, and people come to K&E so they can get appropriately compensated for being valuable to the firm.
The message from Kirkland people is clear: cut costs, change policies, do whatever you need to do, just don't mess around with the bonus.
Is management listening?
Read the full memo below.
KIRKLAND & ELLIS -- MEMO --- NEW VACATION POLICY
The quality of service we provide to our clients depends greatly on the health and well-being of our attorneys. For this reason, we believe all of our lawyers should periodically take time off from work for rest and renewal. Consistent with that belief, the Firm introduces a revised Associate Time-Off policy, which will become effective January 1, 2009.
Instead of providing attorneys with a fixed number of vacation days each year, our revised policy will permit attorneys to take time off with pay - for rest and relaxation, or to attend to personal matters - at their discretion, subject only to the Firm's overall performance expectations. Those performance expectations include, most importantly, that our lawyers will provide the highest quality legal work and service to our clients, contribute to the Firm's pro bono programs and
participate in non-billable efforts on behalf of the Firm. The revised policy aligns our associate paid time-off protocol with our long-standing practice for partners. We also feel it is consonant with both our Firm's entrepreneurial culture and our associates' desire to manage their own careers and maintain a suitable work/life balance.
The Firm expects that its attorneys will continue to exercise sound judgment in determining when to take time off, including giving appropriate consideration to client and Firm deadlines and other objectives. The policy will not permit an associate to take general paid time-off for more than four weeks consecutively. Beyond that stipulation we do not intend or expect this change in policy to affect the amount of time that our lawyers take off on a discretionary basis, and we will continue to encourage them to take opportunities for rest and relaxation.
The revised policy will supersede the current Associate Time-Off policy, as well as certain of the Firm's current paid time off policies, including policies on vacation and personal time. Defined leaves of absence, such as medical leave, personal/parental leave or family medical leave, unpaid leave or leave provided to study for the bar, are governed by separate policies that will not be affected by changes to the Associate Time-Off policy.
Below are a few questions and answers that may help further clarify your understanding of the new Associate Time-Off Policy.
Will associates still need to track and schedule their time-off?
Standard procedures and courtesies for scheduling and recording time-off (i.e., advance notification of colleagues, other office personnel, and clients) will still apply. Inasmuch as our time reporting policies require attorneys to account for a minimum number of hours each business day, all time off must be recorded to 900-16 in Carpe Diem, whether for vacation, illness or other personal matters.
What will happen to the vacation days I've already accrued?
Associates will not accrue new vacation days after December 31, 2008. However, associates who have accrued and unused vacation days from the period prior to December 31, 2008 will be entitled to use those accrued vacation days thereafter during what otherwise would be unpaid leave. Associates who leave our employ will be paid in full for those unused days upon departure from the Firm.
How does 'time off' differ from 'leave'?
Historically, time away from work taken in accordance with an authorized 'leave' policy (i.e., parental leave, military leave, medical leave, unpaid personal leave, etc.) has been disregarded, or 'neutralized', for purposes of performance reviews and calculation of the "hours" portion of any year-end bonus. Such has not been the case with vacation time or other personal time off. The Firm expects to continue this approach to performance reviews and determination of bonuses. Under this approach, if an associate takes an authorized leave but otherwise works a full year, the portion of such associate's year-end bonus that is based on "hours" billed will be calculated by (i) first, determining the bonus to which the associate would have been entitled had he or she worked during the full review year at the pace at which he or she worked when not on authorized leave (i.e., by "annualizing" time billed, including pro bono hours and eligible 'office' hours), and (ii) second, pro-rating that bonus amount based on the percentage of the year the individual was not on leave.
For example, if an associate takes three months of authorized leave, is otherwise employed by the Firm for a full review year, and bills 1,500 hours (including pro bono hours and eligible "office" hours), the associate would be entitled to 75% (i.e., the portion of the year the associate was not on leave) of the hours-based bonus to which she would have been entitled had she billed 2,000 hours (i.e., 1,500 / 0.75) for the full year.
How will the revised Associate Time-Off policy impact Parental Leave?
In the past, some new parents have requested to use vacation days to extend their parental leave beyond the period provided under the Firm's Parental Leave Policy. Under the revised Associate Time-Off Policy, new parents may still extend their paid time off, for up to four consecutive weeks, with the support of the partners with whom they work. However, as per past practice and as discussed above, time off outside of an authorized leave is not 'neutralized' for purposes of bonus determination. Similarly, the option to take unpaid leave time to extend parental leave will remain unchanged. Again this needs the support of the partners with whom the individual lawyer works and also requires Firmwide Administrative Committee approval. Please refer to the Leave of Absence - Associates Policy for more information.
Is the Firm trying to discourage Associates from taking time off?
No. In fact our hope is that this policy more clearly evidences the importance the Firm places on associate autonomy and balanced lives. By eliminating the distinction between 'vacation' and 'personal time', the message to associates is to use time not directed to work to maximum personal benefit.
Does the revised Time Off-Associates Policy apply outside the United States?
The revised policy applies only to associate attorneys in the United States (or in other countries if an attorney's employment is governed by United States law in this regard) who are engaged in the practice of law. Attorneys in countries other than the United States, whose terms and conditions of employment are governed by the laws of a country other than the United States, are provided vacation in accordance with those laws. Further, only employees of the Firm are covered by this policy; partners, 'of counsel' attorneys and independent contractors are not covered.
Who can answer my questions about the Associate Time-Off policy not addressed here?
Questions about the policy can be directed to your local office HR manager or the Firm's Chief HR Officer.
Earlier: Open Thread: Downsizing the Perks
(135) Comments
first
first
not a bad idea, but it might discourage three-week vacations.
I.e. when you are layed off they won't have to pay your accured vacation time. Or if you leave on your own you won't be paid for your time that would account for vacation time.
this is not awesome but a way to cut costs - get a clue.
This is just a way not to pay you your vacation time when you get laid off... problem solved from their end.
first
first
first
first
I don't get it. It seems like having basically unlimited vacation time is great. Do that many associates really accrue 5 weeks of vacation time? Does it really matter that much?
FIRST
I see this as a reduction in compensation. Who at a big law firm can't take time off if they need it anyway, and they don't have work obligations to attend to.
Kirkland = TTT
I see this as a reduction in compensation. Who at a big law firm can't take time off if they need it anyway, and they don't have work obligations to attend to.
Kirkland = TTT
10 -- use your head -- this isn't really going to affect the amount of time people take off (Kirkland does have a bonus structure tied to hours). What this does is relieve K&E of the obligation to pay for accrued vacation time when someone leaves -- nothing more.
FIFTEENTH!
I would trade a liberal vacation policy for PEANUTS and CHEESE, no question.
4/5, most firms offer some kind of severance anyway if there were layoffs. If they wanted to, they'd just cut down on the severance (has Kirkland even had layoffs?), knowing that they'd be paying lots of people for accrued vacation. Problem solved.
Those discussing accrued vacation time have it right. The firm is looking to save money--though this is a somewhat longer viewed (hopefully) method.
#14 is on the money. The only way this could possibly be seen as a positive development is if K&E had lockstep bonuses. Then, while you'd get screwed on vacation time, you could go ahead and take 5 or 6 weeks of vacation per year, and collect your bonus.
"Associates who leave our employ will be paid in full for those unused days [as of instituting the new policy] upon departure from the Firm."
Sounds like the best of both worlds to me.
KirklandTTT?
#14 is on the money. The only way this could possibly be seen as a positive development is if K&E had lockstep bonuses. Then, while you'd get screwed on vacation time, you could go ahead and take 5 or 6 weeks of vacation per year, and collect your bonus.
I can't help but wonder if the Vault rankings will slowly begin to reflect the fact that litigation is faring much better in this economy (even if not everyone is thriving). If I had decided to go the Biglaw route, K&E sounds like a great choice right now.
10, here's a hint: by the time you leave as a fourth or fifth year, your weekly salary is probably around $4,500. If you're smart, you save up your vacation so that when you leave, right after bonuses are handed out, you also get paid for 5 weeks of vacation at $4,500 a week.
20,
go back to torts class - think beyond the people currently working there and new hires and laterals coming in post December 31, 2009
This is a way to pay associates less. Kirkland should be more up front about it. No one is going to take more than five weeks vacation time.
K&E -- Where Hofstra & Northwestern kids go to die. Great place.
I demand definitions for the following terms: PEANUTS, CHEESE, and PRETZELS.
A little history for you young'ens. Cooley did this is in 2000/2001 right before they whacked a bunch of people. The knives are out.
"we feel it is consonant....."
Please proof your stuff.
Most people never max out their four weeks of annual vacation anyway, especially during the first year. Now the firm gets to save money on the accrued unused vacation time when people leave after a year or two.
In fact, without a defined amount of allowable vacation time, risk-averse lawyers will be even less inclined to go on vacation. It's a lot easier to justify taking two weeks off when you're entitled to four weeks, than it is to justify taking two weeks off simply because you used your "discretion."
23,
Making a long term career decision based on current trends is a great idea!
Is K&E a law firm that services global clients?
Come off it. The only people hoarding vacation time are non-trad gunners and frat studs. Married men and women, primary care-givers, parents, they're taking a lot more vacation time. Just because the commenters here are a bunch of 21-year-old undergrads who think that they'll work 80-hour weeks non-stop for six years doesn't mean it's reality.
the firm is being cheap. the point is everyone takes vacation whenever they want now (we also have unlimited personal days) and still accrue enough vacation days to get a nice payout at the end. everyone can see through the policy. but i'd rather see this cutback than have KE pull a half-skadden.
-KE associates.
Kirkland and Ellis is a joke. The only people who speak its praises work at Kirkland and Ellis
30, look it up.
Isn't this the policy at most firms with an hours requirement? My firm has an hours requirement, and we techinically get just three weeks vacation. I've exceeded that number in each of my first three years (while exceeding my minimum billables) and no one has said a word to me.
Tengo un gato en los pantalounes.
Is K&E a law firm that services global clients? Would they hire a Texas grad with huge bar results?
#31: "Most people never max out their four weeks of annual vacation anyway, especially during the first year. "
Well, that's certainly true, as Kirkland only gave associates 3 weeks for their first three years.
You all seem to be missing the larger point here, which is that you are all of a bunch of douchebags.
Is this not the policy at every other firm? As long as you hit the billables, nobody at my firm would ever care how much vacation time you take.
You all seem to be missing the larger point here, which is that you are all a bunch of douchebags.
K&E is finally treating its associates like adults. To you new big boys and big girls at K&E, next stop is non-equity "partnership". Welcome!
30, proof your vocab.
This is not good for associates. Accrual of vacation days is great. It gives you a great excuse for taking a long vacation (you either use it or lose it). Also, when you know that you are going to leave, you can hold off on taking vacation for a while and get a big check at the end. For Kirkland, they will make out in two ways. First, they will no longer have to pay out that money when someone leaves. Second, people will take fewer vacation days out of fear of not looking like a team player. This is not good.
31
I find that hard to believe. At my firm (v5 NY), almost everyone I know takes the full 4 weeks of vacation every year. I have never heard of anyone getting any heat for taking 4 weeks off (not consecutively, of course).
I think 34 is right - these people who think they are going to work 80-hour weeks for 52 weeks in a year are seriously misguided. Biglaw hours can be bad, but it's not that bad. You can certainly bill 2000 hours even if you take 4 weeks vacation.
K&E is finally treating its associates like adults. To you new big boys and big girls at K&E, next stop is non-equity "partnership". Welcome!
I think that K&E's policy will have two negative effects on associates and no positive effects:
1. taking too much vacation (i.e. more than 2 weeks per year) will be seen as being a slacker and you won't have the firm's 4-week policy to rely on. Instead your vacation time may be compared to the average vacation taken by your collegues.
2. you won't get paid for accrued time when you quit or are fired
If people think that this policy will liberate them to take more than 4 weeks off a year, you people are kidding yourselves.
See this post and the comments on this subject:
http://ms-jd.org/no-formal-vacation-means-well-no-formal-vacation
Ba-ba-ba bird bird bird bird is the word
Ba-ba-ba bird bird bird bird's the word
Well a bird bird bird bird is the word
Hey don't you know about the bird?
The comments above on the new K&E policy are naive, IMHO.
I worked for a firm with a vacation policy that sounds like the new K&E policy. The announced policy was to take as much vacation as you wanted, whenever you could. But the unspoken premise was that, if you had time to take vacation, you weren't busy enough. And, if you weren't busy enough, you probably shouldn't be working here. The net result was that no one took any vacation time. (This is spoken as one who, for the first two years I was there, took no vacation days despite working six-day weeks. When I finally took a ten-day vacation at the end of that time, eyebrows shot up.)
My prediction--it won't be a happy situation.
The beauty of this to is that while they say you get to keep your unused vacation time and get paid for it when you leave, I'm sure even if you were to only take 1 week of a year they would argue it came out of your old time and not the new unlimited/untracked time.
Kirland juniors used to only get three weeks of vacation a year? That's sad.
Yeah, 30, maybe you should have kept your fingers to yourself. Moron.
"Do that many associates really accrue 5 weeks of vacation time?"
EVERYONE (almost) at K&E accrues the max, as long as they make it 2+ years. And vacation time was always (still was?) done on an hourly basis--i.e., if you billed 3 hours a day on a couple of conference calls, etc. you'd only use 3 days of vacation time for 5 days out of the office.
ALSO, not that many here care, but this is effectively a cut in MATERNITY/PATERNITY leave. Under the to-be-former policy, you could tack on your vacation time to your parental leave--I'm certain that they won't be allowing that any more.
"Isn't this the policy at most firms with an hours requirement? "
Maybe, but K&E doesn't have an "hours requirement", it's just that if you aren't billing enough (flexible definition), then you aren't performing up to K&E standards.
39: I think that should be "mis pantalones"
Co-sign 52. I worked at a similar firm (who knows, maybe the same one). Taking as much vacation as your workload allowed essentially meant taking none at all. And when I finally did schedule a vacation after two years at that firm, during a time when my cases were slow, my "commitment" to the firm was explicitly called into question, and I was told in a not-so-subtle way that perhaps I might want to cancel the trip. I went anyways, but ended up billing 35 hours during my week "off."
50 -- your first point is a non-issue.
under the current policy, vacation days are effectively unlimited as well. nobody keeps track of how much vacation people take. there is no "average" vacation time now and there won't be under the new policy.
the negative impact is all on the payout of vacation days in the end.
30: You are an idiot. Look up "consonant with" and report back here. Chop-chop!
30: You are an idiot. Look up "consonant with" and report back here. Chop-chop!
Fuck all this noise. Go out and find bonus news by whatever means necessary.
Not a big deal. K&E has always told its associates that they could take as much time off as they wanted, whenever they wanted, without repercussion. Like every other big firm, the only caveat is that associates are expected to be available to address any deal/case/client issue that comes up, at any time, without any notice.
Also, K&E allows unlimited personal time for attorneys, so working vacations often end up as personal time rather than vacation time.
The only thing that this changes is that new hires aren't going to accrue vacation time that will be paid out when they leave the firm. They get paid a ton while they are at K&E, so the payout on exit is immaterial. Not a big deal.
-- K&E Associate
52 and 57
What kind of firms are you guys working at? I am with 48 - everybody I know at my firm takes the full 4 weeks off (even first years). And I have been around for a few years now.
- Also NY v5
What they taketh away they rarely giveth back. They are covering their asses when they have layoffs and they're making it uncomfortable to take vacation. Don't like the smell of this one.
Any Employment folks out there? I'm curious what this does to the theory that vacation pay is deferred compensation in the employment contract arena. I can understand K&E making this policy apply to incoming folks but to those who have been around for years? Seems fishy.
"The only thing that this changes is that new hires aren't going to accrue vacation time that will be paid out when they leave the firm. They get paid a ton while they are at K&E, so the payout on exit is immaterial. Not a big deal."
Yeah, it is a fairly big deal. It's about a $20k - 30k cut in benefits.
-- Another K&E Associate
MOORECLOPS decries the angry taunts of the squirrel ninjas.
Texas has AIDS.
At my V32, everyone takes the full 5 weeks of vacation.
Let me ask a serious (but naive?) question: if an associate quits his job or is fired, do firms really pay for accrued vacation time? I have been practicing for a few years but never seriously considered the possibility that my firm would pay me for this time when I move on.
69 - of course they do!
Vacation policy? Boooring.
More WGWAG!
#69: Yes, it's the law in every state I've heard of - usually with a cap. Though, I believe in California, accrual is unlimited.
"In fact our hope is that this policy more clearly evidences the importance the Firm places on associate autonomy and balanced lives."
Making this cheap-ass policy look like concern for associates is the most insulting part of all.
So what if K&E doesn't want to pay out 5 weeks of vacation time to associates leaving the firm. Why should K&E continue a policy that benefits those who don't want to work there any more?
NO VACATION PAYOUT WHEN YOU LEAVE!!!!!!
SkaddenDC has 6 weeks vacation plus a really nice food court.
74: Because K & E reaped the benefit of five weeks' worth of the associate's billed time when the associate could've taken the time off. If the associate had taken those five weeks off, the associate would've gotten paid and K & E wouldn't have gotten a cent of billed time from the associate.
K & E and its ilk WANT people to leave, make no mistake. It's not some insult to the firm if you use your judgment and move on.
This is what you do. When you are going to leave, you just stop working for the last month, and take your "vacation" then.
If K&E were really cheap, it's NY Christmas party wouldn't be at the Plaza...
Yeah, good luck finding a BigLaw assiciate for whom the limiting factor on their time off is the number of vacation days the firm gives.
You can bill personal time all you want; nobody cares. Its the billable hours that count; nobody cares how many days you physically were at the office.
Shut up MOORECLOPS! Everyone knows that LESSCLOPS is better.
78: Exactly. Give just enough notice that if they decide to cut it short it won't be financially devastating and then do a work slow-down.
This sucks because in the past you could just take infinite days off and bill an hour or so checking emails and not have to take a vacation day.
Any associate who does not end the year with the maximum number of days you can accrue is a dummy. It would be ridiculous to leave the firm with less than the max vacation days accrued - free money. Hopefully the existing associates have the full 4-5 weeks or whatever they will pay you for accrued.
83: I know! I was always amazed by the dogged earnestness of people who billed doctor's appointments as vacation time. I'm sure you and I will get blasted for being slackers, of course.
"As per"? Seriously? A lawyer wrote that memo? Sad.
77 - I understand why YOU want K&E to pay 5 weeks of accrued time to people leaving the firm, but why should K&E care about you if you're leaving? If I worked at K&E (I don't), I'd rather have that money used to save bonuses than pay outgoing associates. Not that the money will go anywhere other than partners' pockets . . .
85 = Closeted racist and probably a GULC grad.
Lat et al., how about you institute a new policy whereby any post that includes the word first, peanuts, pretzels, frat or glasscock is blocked? This would be a significant improvement.
As for K&E - one of the most transparent rip-offs I've seen pulled by a supposedly decent firm.
- still waiting for S&C to announce
My firm has this same policy and it's great as long as you actually take vacation. I do. I've gone on three-week vacations in December each of my first two years and the firm. If I was accruing vacation time I don't know if I'd take long vacations like that because then it's costing me since I'd be entitled to money for that accrued time at separation.
In contrast, there are plenty of lame associates in my office who never take vacation. Literally they've been here three years and taken maybe two weeks off total and most of those were Fridays to fly across country. For those people they are getting screwed. They'd be better off accruing vacation and then being paid out when they leave.
A cynic would tell you that K&E is planning or at least bracing for lay-offs some time next year. In anticipation of that contingency, they are changing policies now re: accrued 2009 vacation time so they won't have to pay it out when those people leave.
If layoffs occurred, say, March 31, then 1.25 weeks of vacation will have accrued. And for those who haven't used their days by that time, the firm will save money.
Bigger question: presumably K&E allows "roll-over" of unused 2008 days to be used by some time in 2009? Will that change now? If they're not honoring the roll-over, then they would also save a ton by not having to pay to those unused 2008 days.
It would be interesting to look into whether Kirkland's new policy violates California law because of the policy's 4-week maximum cap on continuous vacation. It could be interpreted as a way to circumvent the CA requirement that you pay out accrued vacation time. By defining a 4-week maximum it could be argued that you are actually providing 4 weeks a year in accrued vacation. I don't believe there is much case law or agency regulations/opinion letters on this subject, but it would be interesting to look into.
52 -- if you didn't take any vacations for 2 years, blame yourself for being a workholic and not the firm policy.
83 and 84 - now I know how some associates end up not taking any vacation time.
It's not like K&E associates ever have the chance to take vacation time anyway.
Let's do this right:
http://insidethelawblog.blogspot.com/
It sounds like Kirkland is getting ready to lay people off. This policy will help them avoid paying people for accrued vacation days when they get let go.
GDC went to this system years ago. Unless you really care about the accrued pay-out when you leave, it's actually works really well. Since this system started, I have consistently taken 4-6 weeks of vacation each year. There is another associate here who takes about 6-7 every year. As long as you meet your hours, no one cares. It's not ideal in that you give up the pay-out when you leave, but it does make life easier and more fun.
Hey all you hand-wringers -- Gibson Dunn made this change 5 years ago, when I worked there. The sky didn't fall. Many other firms already follow this practice (including the firm with which I currently practice). As compared to incoming associates, existing associates with accrued vacation time benefit because they will be paid out (I was, when I left GDC). If incoming associates want to choose a different law firm with a different policy, so be it. Boo hoo.
My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.
Dear 59:
Looked it up and reporting for duty.
consonant (adj.)
(1) Being in agreement or accord: remarks consonant with our own beliefs.
(2) Corresponding or alike in sound, as words or syllables.
(3) Harmonious in sound or tone.
- 30
"As long as you meet your hours, no one cares."
Anybody else find this not to be the case? When I was in BIGLAW, seven weeks' worth of vacation time would absolutely not have gone unnoticed, even if the associate billed tons of hours. I also simply didn't have enough control over my time to bill tons of hours when I was in the office and then bill nothing while on vacation.
56- 39 here. It actually shouldn't. By putting the U in there I was trying to emulate Martin Lawrence's locution in Hot Streak. Douche.
WLRK just announced its bonus--3 x Skadden!
WLRK just announced its bonus--3 x Skadden!
WLRK just announced its bonus--3 x Skadden!
101 - I agree with your control argument, it is not always easy to cabin your hours so that they fit your vacation preferences. With that said, Kirkland really does not care whether people are in the office at all. They care about hours being met and not shirking responsibility, but assuming you get your ducks in a row there is no reason you cannot take as much vacation time as you want.
106: 101 here. I guess my experience was relatively negative. Getting my "ducks in a row" was impossible because I worked for an insanely disorganized partner who had no respect for any associate's time (hence my departure within two years). The work was never done, in large part because of him. I was very, very grateful to have a payout when I left because I had to fight for every week of vacation I took.
My firm has the same sort of a vacation/personal days policy. We have billable hours requirements. Beyond that, nobody cares. However, and this is big, NOBODY TAKES ANY VACATION HERE. If you take vacation, you are slacking and expendible. I worked here for two years before I took a solid week off - and ended up working on my vacation anyway.
It sounds great, but it just means you never really are entitled to take a vacation.
My firm has the same sort of a vacation/personal days policy. We have billable hours requirements. Beyond that, nobody cares. However, and this is big, NOBODY TAKES ANY VACATION HERE. If you take vacation, you are slacking and expendible. I worked here for two years before I took a solid week off - and ended up working on my vacation anyway.
It sounds great, but it just means you never really are entitled to take a vacation.
91, I worked in a California office of firm based out of state. The firm's vacation policy was very similar to Kirkland's--identical in every detail I remember. When I left, they paid me for four weeks. I suspect that they felt they were required to do this by Calif. law, but haven't looked at the law myself.
62 wrote:
"The only thing that this changes is that new hires aren't going to accrue vacation time that will be paid out when they leave the firm. They get paid a ton while they are at K&E, so the payout on exit is immaterial."
Obviously the partners at K&E disagreed with you on the question of materiality, otherwise they wouldn't have changed the policy. And in my 6 years at a firm, I only once took 4 weeks vacation in a single year and I, like most of my colleagues, had 4 weeks vacation accrued for which I was paid on my way out the door (and I certainly didn't find a month's salary immaterial).
101, I had a similar experience. My first two years I had only two DAYS (including Sat. and Sun.) completely out of the office. The partner just kept giving me such BS assignments that I couldn't leave. If I slept in too late on a Saturday morning, he'd call me at home. No way I could have taken even a one week vacation. I'd say we worked for the same partner, but you didn't mention that he had an explosive temper. If you'd worked for the guy I did, you wouldn't have left that part out. I can't forger it. He wasn't just insanely disorganized, he was insane.
107 and 112 - Kirkland has a free market system. There are certainly partners like that, but you have a choice as to whether or not you work for them.
For what it's worth, junior lawyers only got an official 3 weeks of vacation (as opposed to the standard 4) before this policy change.
Elie, you're so TTT. It took you 24 hours to post this? I know you've got one hand kept busy with the job of constantly shoving potato chips into your mouth, but come on!
T10 law firm here. We get 4 weeks vacation every year and I do not know a single person that uses all their vacation each year. Because I am in California (very employee protectionist), my accrued vacation cannot be capped. As it stands now, I have about 20 weeks accrued vacation to cash out if/when I leave. That works out to about $130K. That is not chump change. Spin it how you want, but this is a cost saving measure to the detriment of the associates.
112 here. I didn't work for Kirkland.
116, I'm hoping you aren't advising your clients on CA vacation law because the malpractice suits should start rolling in any day now. Accrual of vacation absolutely can be capped in CA, and most employers do so. However, once accrued it can't be taken away. Vacation accrual is considered wage income. You get if you quit or you're terminated, with or without cause. See below from the CA DLSE website. Then turn yourself in you your office managing partner, admit you are a complete moron, and resign and never practice law again (taking your accrued vacation with you of course).
Q.
My employer's vacation policy provides that once an employee earns 200 hours of vacation, no more vacation may be earned (accrued) until the vacation balance falls below that level. Is this legal?
A.
Yes, such a provision would be acceptable to the Labor Commissioner. Unlike "use it or lose it" policies, a vacation policy that places a "cap" or "ceiling" on vacation pay accruals is permissible. Whereas a "use it or lose it" policy results in a forfeiture of accrued vacation pay, a "cap" simply places a limit on the amount of vacation that can accrue; that is, once a certain level or amount of accrued vacation is earned but not taken, no further vacation or vacation pay accrues until the balance falls below the cap. The time periods involved for taking vacation must, of course, be reasonable. If implementation of a "cap" is a subterfuge to deny employees vacation or vacation benefits, the policy will not be recognized by the Labor Commissioner.
118 Postings and no mention of K&E's BONUS SITUATION. Get with it people.
Obviously K&E is going to top Skadden. The question is just how much. K&E, for those of you who don't know, doesn't think that everyone should be treated equally (ie same base pay, same bonus for everyone). Instead, it's a meritocracy. If you're good and bill, the firm takes care of you so you don't have an incentive to leave. If you suck and don't bill, the firm pays you less because you bring less to the table. It's that simple. I've never understood the whole lockstep bonus thing...