Michigan Professor Responds To Michigan 2L
We have been following the sad tale of a University of Michigan 2L and a U-M professor who got caught up in a prostitution scandal. Yesterday, the Michigan 2L responded to some of the comments that have been made about her.
Today, the professor involved asked ATL for equal time and an opportunity to tell his side of the story. In a letter entitled: “Have you considered whether she may be simply lying?” and sent to the entire law school, the professor says:
I wish to raise with you the claim that, for whatever reasons, your student is simply lying. Allegations must be substantiated with facts; here are the facts as they emerge from the police report (which, as I am sure many of you know, anyone is entitled to get from the police).
We reprint the letter in full after the jump.
And just to be clear, this will conclude our coverage of these events. Both parties have had an opportunity to say their piece, and we’d like to leave it at that.
YARON ELIAV — OPEN LETTER TO THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN LAW SCHOOL
Have you considered whether she may be simply lying?
Dear members of the law school community,
The letter that the student of your school recently wrote to you was brought to my attention. I do not wish to go into discussion with her in this forum. There are other, more appropriate channels for that. But since she referred in this letter to me with a string of serious allegation, and since I know that many of you are well trained in verifying the truth and hold in high esteem both honesty and justice, I wish to raise with you the claim that, for whatever reasons, your student is simply lying. Allegations must be substantiated with facts; here are the facts as they emerge from the police report (which, as I am sure many of you know, anyone is entitled to get from the police).
1. She claims that the morning after our meeting, when she went to the police, she had “vision problems”; interestingly enough, she did not mention these vision problems to neither of the police officers that interviewed her. In the first officer’s report it says: “C. stated that her face was swollen from being slapped”; that’s it! If she had vision problems, why not mention them? Was it even swollen? Right after, the police report says the following “This officer was not able to detect any swellings or discoloration on C.’s face.” Mind you, this is less than 24 after the incident. If she would have claimed problems with vision during that interview, police procedures would have required to send her to a doctor to evaluate the damage. Nothing of that was done. Only a month later, in an interview she had on the 5-21-08 she finally “remembered” that “her vision was not clear after the assault.”
2. In her letter, C. claims that during our meeting she feared for her life. And that she thinks she was lucky that she made it through it alive. Interestingly enough, here too, no where in any of the interviews that she had with the police has she ever mentioned these claims. She also never mentions anywhere in her interviews with the police that I threatened her life in any way.
3. Which brings me to the assault claim - she says that I assaulted her by slapping her face twice and by whipping her. This seems like a serious allegation - what kind of a man would do something like that?!! But what C. fails to provide for you is the context in which these things were done. Here is what the police report and the evidence the police collected say:
A. “C. stated (that) Eliav asked about her playing a submissive role in the encounter.” This is how she described my initial email inquiry with her, which shows she understood this to be a “(role) play type of encounter.”
B. In reply to this inquiry. C. wrote to me the following email (it’s somewhat explicit, so my apologies; but as people who are training to be lawyers, I think you can handle it): “Hi, You sound just like the kind of man I prefer :) … The Don’ts— I don’t do anything with blood, piss, scat. I don’t do back-door. You may not perform oral on me. I use condoms for both oral and vag sex. The Do’s— kissing, using my hands and mouth, sex. My interests are pretty diverse. I’ve given/gotten spankings. I dig role-play. I like to try new positions… the crazier, the better. I’m playful. My pet interest is BDSM… I do dom and sub, but deep down I’m a true sub… I love nipple torture: having my breasts squeezed and bitten, wearing my nipple-clamps. I’m not much into degradation or humiliation, or intense pain.” Now you future and current lawyers tell me if she has given a broad enough spectrum to experiment in “role play.” The context for our encounter was of two consenting adults that are coming to experiment with role play, which C. is enthusiastically embracing (and much of which, BTW, was never part of our encounter).
C. Another point to keep in mind - throughout her statement to the police, I counted 5 or 6 times were C. admits that various things were initiated during the encounter and that she told me not to do it “and he would stop”; or alternatively that I asked her about something and that although originally she didn’t plan to include this, but that “she agreed”; or “after more discussion, she compiled with his request.” and note: these are her words to the investigators! Here is what the report says about the whipping, “C. initially did not want to be whipped but had done similar things in the past and agreed to be whipped.” So all in all, what emerged here is a CONVERSATION! In which things were talked about, discussed and time and again C. herself in her statement to the police admits that nothing was forced on her.
D. Which brings we to the notorious two slaps on the face. They too were part of this “role play”; here is what the detective reports about his conversation with C. about the slapping: “I (=the detective) asked C. if she said anything after she had been struck on the first occasion and she stated that she did not say anything.” And I (Eliav) ask - why didn’t she say anything? Her statement shows that every time that something was not to her liking she said something (see above, section C.). And indeed after a while, when there was a second slap, C. says that she told me that if I slap her again, she will slap me back, and indeed, I immediately recognized that this is not to her liking and I stopped. This is according to her statement! All in all, the slaps were part of this role play experimental encounter, in which we tried to enact certain emotions and tie them with some actions. Just like a slap in the face in a movie in not an assault, here too there was no assault. To go back to a note from before - the second slap was very much toward the end of our encounter, and I hardly think that someone who is “afraid for her life” would speak like C. did (“if you slap me again, I’ll slap you back”)…
Other lies are not worth repeating. All in all, surprising as it may seem, I have nothing against C. She is apparently a troubled woman and I wish her just good and well. It was my lawyer (encouraged by me) who convinced the Ann Arbor news, because of her suicidal nature, not to include her name in the piece - although, as many readers have noted, there was no legal prevention from doing so, as she was charged with the same computer charge as I was! (and to be sure, the Ann Arbor news was considering to publish her name and her picture, as reflected by their request from the police for her photograph).
Don’t get me wrong - I am not proud of this encounter; not at all. It was a stupid mistake of bad judgment that hurt my self, my family, my colleagues, and the university I dearly love. I take full responsibility for that and will handle its consequences, perhaps for the rest of my life. But don’t let C. fool you to believe that whatever happened there was non-consensual. She would do better to her self to stop spreading lies in order to redeem her actions. Take responsibility and begin healing. Lies will bring you no where.
Earlier: Michigan 2L Responds
University of Michigan Law Student Should Have Come to ATL First




Comments
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FIRSTASAURUS REX!
She's wrong. He's wrong. No excuses either way.
and Last
too long to read, cliff note that shit for me
Stealth layoffs are the only crimes we should be concerned with. Ducktales a-woo-woo !!!! autoadmit.com
Eliav may protest all he wants, and take a lawyerly view of things, but the fact remains he hired a sex worker for a BDSM encounter that went sour.
This guy should die in a fire. One can only hope the intense burning from the gonorrhea that he has certainly contracted will help simulate that, if only a little.
How come there is no entry on the U. Michigan Law School's website for this faculty member? Was it removed this past week?
I like his letter better than hers. This has Duke Lacrosse written all over it.
ATL is not supposed to be Perez Hilton!! I want: more law firm news coverage, which firms are in the crapper and which are having a bumper year?; deal coverage, who is winning new clients, who is losing clients due to their insistence on raising rates in this economy?; lay off coverage; benefits coverage...
This is just TMI.
What happened to an intelligent legal community blog that kept us current on things that matters to *US* and our paychecks?
SIM SIM SALABIM!!
So wait - a Michigan Law student was doing dominatrix shit for a Michigan Law professor?
Wow, this makes the Brooklyn Law School Happy Naked Girls thing look like small peanuts.
Typical he said, she said. I am disgusted and tired of this story. I really could care less about either parties' side. It's your life and now deal with it. We are just mere spectators. You are the ones who will have to deal with the reprecussions.
EVERYBODY DANCE NOW!
He isn't a law school professor. He's a professor at the University, but not a law school prof.
Way to keep up with the latest news, 11...
"she did not mention these vision problems to neither of the police officers"
He has bad grammar! Stone him!
Speaking of 2Ls, how normal is a first semester grade drop? I'm expecting very bad things, despite doing all the reading and going to all the class I could.
I wish I could have been more prepared, but I had to choose between busting my ass all semester or spending considerable effort finding a job. I presently don't regret doing the latter, but fear I will in a few weeks.
I am sure his wife is oh so pleased.
My question is, if it happened the way he said it, why she went to the police.
Did he not pay the agreed amount? What is his explanation there?
Um, he's a professor who hired a student to serve as his prostitute. Sleazy, sleazy, sleazy. Deserves to be fired - is he?
How can someone who is such a terrible writer be a prof at UMich? What a joke.
How can someone who is such a terrible writer be a prof at UMich? What a joke.
i await C's tell all book and follow-up Lifetime movie.
What a d-bag. If UM doesn't fire this idiot immediately they should be ashamed of themselves.
His claim that she's lying is based on the police report, and the fact that the police didn't take her seriously. As someone who has had to read many police reports, I know they often are incomplete. It also seems at least possible that the police were more focused on the prostitution angle (since they did charge her).
Even given the information his letter, he didn't have consent to hit her in the face, and he admits to hitting her twice. The first time might be fuzzy, but the second is a clear battery.
8-he's not law school faculty, he's in the arts and sciences part of the university
His first papers were about Jewish and Roman bathhouses:
http://www.umich.edu/~neareast/faculty/yzeliav.htm
"Jewish Bath-Houses in the Roman Period: A Test-case of the Confluence of Archaeological Finds and Talmudic Texts." Nineteenth Archaeological Conference in Israel (summaries), Jerusalem 1993, pp. 25-26. (Heb.)
"Did the Jews at First Abstain from Using the Roman Bath-House?," Cathedra, 75 (1995), pp. 3-35. (Heb.)
"Pylè - Puma - Sfat Medinah and a Halacha Concerning Bath-houses," Sidra, 11 (1995), pp. 5-19 (Heb.)
"What Happened to Rabbi Abbahu at the Tiberian Bath-House? - The Place of Realia and Daily Life in the Talmudic Aggada," Jerusalem Studies in Jewish Folklore, 17 (1995), pp. 7-20. (Heb.)
I think we found the new editor for ATL! This guy has much better grammar than Elie does.
Just because something is not in a police report doesn't mean it didn't happen or that it wasn't mentioned. As someone who has worked with domestic violence victims, I have found that the police are terrible at documenting everything a victim says correctly. Most of the time they don't want to take a report at all because it means more paperwork for them. I simply would not jump to the conclusion that she is lying because something was absent from a police report.
The woman involved is an adult. This isn't some high school teacher-student exploitation. They're both adults. If he deserves to be dismissed from the university so does she.
I'll take Therapists for $200.
22: I am waiting for Law and Order: SVU to pick up this case.
Elie should challenge this guy to a writing/blogging competition! My money's on Elie.
His claim that she's lying is based on the police report, and the fact that the police didn't take her seriously. As someone who has had to read many police reports, I know they often are incomplete. It also seems at least possible that the police were more focused on the prostitution angle (since they did charge her).
Even given the information his letter, he didn't have consent to hit her in the face, and he admits to hitting her twice. The first time might be fuzzy, but the second is a clear battery.
22: I am waiting for Law and Order: SVU to pick up this sad tale
Is this guy really a professor? He's borderline illiterate! I stopped counting all the grammatical errors after the 2nd or 3rd paragraph. Beyond the kinky side-interests, this speaks poorly for our educational system.
Hey 10----- WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
27 - Count my vote. He would be much better.
This letter is so badly written that he has to be guilty. I feel dumber just for reading it.
His writing makes Mystal's seem polished.
26- UM should have taken note. We all know what happens in Jewish and Roman bathhouses.
Wow. Crazy bitch versus scumbag, who's telling the truth? Better yet, who gives a shit?
MysTTAL
KKKash
ATLame
He's on Michigan's website. Interestingly, half of his scholarship is on Roman bathhouses.
A distraction: http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=665847
17- it's not uncommon. there is a lot going on in the third semester, and it's not unusual for students to inadvertently overload themselves, between courses, interviewing, law review, moot court, etc. i did it (i went from a 3.7 to a 3.4 to a 3.9 in my second through fourth semesters), and i know a lot of others who did as well. the good news is that a one-semester dip shouldn't affect you too much, esp if you've already landed a job for next summer.
This is why BDSM should be illegal--so that sexual predators can't claim "consent."
He can't use the subjunctive. He is a failure on more than one level.
FORTYSIXTHASAURUS REX!
FORTYSIXTHASAURUS REX!
lol @ Michigan
skeet, skeet, skeet,
He can't use the subjunctive. He is a failure on more than one level.
this guy is going about this the wrong way. he could simply say that the facts are different from what the girl claims and say look at the police report. Instead, he tries to explain in detail why some pretty sick stuff is actually OK. It makes him seem kind of like a psycho and to me actually reinforces the girl's claims.
26-
The Jews in Roman bath houses thing is actually a topic of significant scholarly interest, because it deals with how Jews (and later, Christians) interacted with Graeco-Roman culture in the ancient Near East. The guy's scholarship - not withstanding his grammar, on account of the fact that he's a foreigner - is definitely legit.
He's just a grade-A asshole.
-former grad student turned law student
You gotta respect a student-teacher scandal where the teacher's defense is consent. It's kinda like "it's not murder 1! Voluntary manslaughter, of course! Every one would agree that this is voluntary manslaughter. I'd be some kinda nut to argue it's not voluntary manslaughter. But murder 1? Common!"
Except no one died.
I have to say, if we are meant to be students of the law then it i is of the utmost importance to take a critical look at the factual situations we are faced with.
On the one hand we can believe that the entire Ann Arbor police department was willing to put their jobs, their reputation and their funds (ie: lawsuit) on the line to disregard the very people they are supposed to protect all because we assume they have some latent sexist hatred for women in control.
Or we can see this for what it really is: a young woman who is, unfortunately and sadly, disturbed.
I'm sure that a significant portion of my classmates will gladly believe the fanciful tales of this young con-artist, but I choose to focus on the facts that emerge. I am not willing to believe that the police department would disregard evidence of an assault. Surely before they were told the details they would have seen the wounds if she was telling the truth.
Why weren't wounds mentioned? Because wounds did not exist. I am pleased that this professor brought the facts to light, despite the fact that they both deserve all of the legal and personal troubles they face from their bad decisions.
-UM 1L
53- did you study Jewish and Roman bathhouses?
Interesting that this comment thread is considerably tamer and (dare I say) more civil than the comment thread on the woman. An attack on his grammar and writing style - really? That's the best you can do? Where are the claims that he is a disease ridden whore who should quit his profession now?
Assault has a legal meaning. It is not something you can say "it was not an assault," idiot.
"I am not willing to believe that the police department would disregard evidence of an assault."
Stay far, far away from any actual practice of law, genius.
This guy should lawyer up and shut up. Pronto.
At least he doesn't sound like an insane hysterical woman.
Why believe her?
I'm a #L at UM. Can we PLEASE get over this. I don't understand why either the girl or the undergrad prof feel the need to take their dispute to the law school listserv. They did something scandalous. People will talk about it. End of story. No need to keep the issue going.
Right on 45! But why stop there? ALL sex should be illegal so rapists can't claim "consent".
Idiot.
Oh hai!
I'm a prostitute-frequenting professor who gets off on beating up women, but it's totally ok because I didn't beat her quite as hard as she's saying. I mean, you could barely see the bruises. Also, rape-shmape.
Did I mention that I am a professor at a top law school and don't know that "nowhere" is one word?
Please love me now.
Sincerely,
Eliav
Does it bother anyone else that someone who writes as poorly as he does can be a university professor?
60: Too late.
55, is that you Eliav?
Does it bother anyone else that someone who writes as poorly as he does can be a university professor?
He can't use the subjunctive. He is a failure on more than one level.
56-
I wouldn't say, "study," but I'm familiar with the texts and issues involved
53
He can't use the subjunctive. He is a failure on more than one level.
56-
I wouldn't say, "study," but I'm familiar with the texts and issues involved
53
I love her email. "... having my breasts squeezed and bitten, wearing my nipple-clamps. I'm not much into degradation or humiliation, or intense pain." Ya, I feel real sorry for her.
i wonder if the prof's lawyer knows that his client wrote this...
English obviously isn't his first language.
you feminists are pathetic.
he said she said.
bottom line is he is a creep and she is a lying hysterical psycho.
any way you slice it, this prof is NASTY. the school needs to fire him, tenure be damned.
I have to say, if we are meant to be students of the law then it i is of the utmost importance to take a critical look at the factual situations we are faced with.
On the one hand we can believe that the entire Ann Arbor police department was willing to put their jobs, their reputation and their funds (ie: lawsuit) on the line to disregard the very people they are supposed to protect all because we assume they have some latent sexist hatred for women in control.
Or we can see this for what it really is: a young woman who is, unfortunately and sadly, disturbed.
I'm sure that a significant portion of my classmates will gladly believe the fanciful tales of this young con-artist, but I choose to focus on the facts that emerge. I am not willing to believe that the police department would disregard evidence of an assault. Surely before they were told the details they would have seen the wounds if she was telling the truth.
Why weren't wounds mentioned? Because wounds did not exist. I am pleased that this professor brought the facts to light, despite the fact that they both deserve all of the legal and personal troubles they face from their bad decisions.
-UM 1L
What a stupid letter to send out. It makes him look way more incriminating. I wonder if the same lawyer who convinced him not to publish C's name advised him to write this letter.
His actions are a disgrace to the UM community and he should definitely be fired.
I wonder how she'll explain this incident on her character & fitness questionnaire for the bar
74: The bitch of it is, he'll blame his lawyer when he loses at trial.
73 - you mean, his rendition of her email.
Did you guys bitching about him hitting her not notice the bdsm thing? Slapping is quite legal and acceptable in the context of consensual bdsm sex.
30 = best comment in months
suck it trebek!
lol @ Michigan
wonder how she'll explain this incident on the character & fitness section
@ 13:
Dum. Dum dum dum dum.
Yeah, you know how it goes.
21 - You ask: How could someone who is such a terrible writer be a professor at Michigan?
Answer: Because Michigan is the most overrated, TTT of a university there is. And I'm not just speaking about the law school.
-SLS 3L
The sheriff should paddle both the professor and the strumpet. That's how we do it in Buffalo.
Very classy to leave it at that. Well done, Elie.
any way you slice it, this prof is NASTY. the school needs to fire him, tenure be damned.
V&E>CWT>Latham
Suck it, carpet-faggers!!!
83- She's actually not a true "sub". A true "sub" would have no problem with pain, and in fact were she a true sub she should have actually phrased the email quite differently. If she would have simply been as specific about what she does/doesn't like w/r/t BDSM as she was about not liking it up the butt than this guy would have probably never chosen to see her.
It's obvious he wanted to dominate, and she didn't quite want to be the sub. The guy is an asshole and deserves to be in Jail.
91: Maybe he just needs to be taken into the Dean's office for some stern discipline.
The only thing to do in these situations as an outsider looking into this mess is to be objective about the facts. If you take a side without knowing all the facts you run the chance of ending up like Nifong from that Duke case.
All we really know is that she seems really disturbed and he seems like a deviant.
The only thing worth commenting on is the final line of the post, which indicates that ATL will finally stop covering this story. Thank you for that. This has made us all feel a bit gross, and it has nothing to do with anything anyone who reads this blog is actually interested in.
To 59:
I should clarify, despite how idiotic your oversimplification of a single sentence in my post was, I still could have phrased it better.
I am unwilling, based on personal experience with the Ann Arbor Police Department, to believe that THEY SPECIFICALLY would disregard evidence of an assault.
Two years ago I took a friend into the police station the morning after a party. She'd been beat up, but she wouldn't tell me by whom. When I brought her in she was still wearing a revealing top and a short skirt from the night before and her make-up was all over her face. They brought her water, insisted on calling an ambulance and listened intently, writing down every detail of her story without so much as a single snide comment or cross look.
My PERSONAL EXPERIENCE with the Ann Arbor police just does not sync with this girl's story. In addition to the fact that the Prof. cited evidence and she told an unverifiable story, his version just fits what I've seen better.
So that is what was meant by the single sentence you isolated, picked out and ignorantly attempted to turn into a larger worldview.
~55
So sad.
if that dumbass ever divorces that washington bogger prostitute whore, maybe he can hook up with this skank when she graduates. at least she may be able to outearn him by not only working in biglaw, but also by working biglaw.
That professor is an idiot. He added fuel to the fire.
if that dumbass ever divorces that washington blogger prostitute whore, maybe he can hook up with this skank when she graduates. at least she may be able to outearn him by not only working in biglaw, but also by working biglaw.
55/78 --
STFU. You are a 1L. You have not earned the right to speak.
Guys in my high school used to have their breasts squeezed and bitten, and wore nipple-clamps all the time, it was no big deal.
FRAT STUD
55 is the professor.
Native speakers don't phrases like "fanciful tales".
57:
You don't see those claims because SHE'S the disease-ridden whore (quite literally) not him.
This letter is full of typos. Does Michigan have any standards for its professors?
My CWT NY 05 girlfriend does all of those acts for free and with much gusto and fervor. In fact, she is tenacious about the D.
It's absolutely stunning to me how lacking in boundaries people are today, especially people who are supposed "professionals." What possible rationale could either of these people have for sending unsolicitated emails to everyone at the law school on a non-law school subject (and no--the fact that they are both a part of the "community" does not make this a law school matter). This was an off-campus interaction of a completely private and personal nature, and the fact that it has been exposed does not mean they should involve themselves in further exposing it and propagating discussion of it. Pathetic.
She sounds pretty hot in her email.
As a UM law student, shouldn't she know better than to put that in writing?
102 has mommy issues.
108 nailed it. Let's put an end to this sad chapter.
Elie, close the thread.
@110 -- i am very upset that your mommy doesn't swallow. Does that count as a mommy issue?
- 102
stop ranking on the guy's grammar and its implications for the U of M - how many Chinese physics profs at MIT (or the U of M for that matter) can't speak English at all? The guy's a Jewish studies prof, from Israel - of course his English isn't perfect. He was hired for the quality of his scholarship, much of which may be written in Hebrew (even though the titles appear in English). What he wasn't hired for, obviously, is his moral rectitude, which is obviously nonexistent
THIS IS THE AFFECT OF THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION ELLIES IS JUST TRYING TO HELP IMPLEMENT THE FARENESS DOCTRINE PREMPTIVELY GOHOPE GO CHANGE!!1
My sheep is very submissive and never complains.
This guy cannot write coherent sentences or spell. But the 2L can. Bad writer = douchebag.
He sent this letter to the entire law school? That is really f*cked up. This man is crazy and I feel badly for the young woman. It is evident from this man's letter that he feels no remorse or embarrassment about what went down - if he did he would stfu, rather than attacking this woman on her law school listserv. If he didn't do any of the stuff she said he did then I could understand why he'd want to speak out, but he's basically saying that sure, he hit her, but it was no big deal. wtf?
What is UM doing about this? Has this prof been fired yet?
31/34: They already did it with Shannyn Sossamon as an art student who accuses both her professor and Stabler of assaulting her.
117 - he exposed her for the liar she is. We should all sit back and let her make shit up and say "oh, the poor little girl, I don't care if that's how it really happened, she's still a poor little baby victim?"
HELL NO. It is not wrong to want the truth to come out.
This whole thing just makes Michigan look terrible. These two idiots need to shut the **** up.
"Oh, I just committed a crime. I guess the best move now would be to reveal every detail of my pitiful life and of the embarrassing encounter to the entire world."
Come on. STFU. Please. You were both wrong. No one cares who was more wrong than the other. One of you is getting fired and the other will never get a decent job, even if Michigan allows you to hold onto the privilege of paying them $40k a year.
- Nervous T10 1L
ATL = Always Tawdry & Lame
This man is untouchable by any attorney now. He's too stupid and digging himself in deeper and should shut up ASAP. The it's-not-true-if-it's-not-in-the-police-report defense? Riiiiiight.
Why is this girl still in school?
Is it honestly possible that the bar might give a prostitute a license to practice law? It would render character and fitness entirely meaningless.
24--
Uh, no. The third slap would be clear battery, because only after the second did she say stop-- which he did. He's established a pretty clear case that he reasonably believed she consented to the first and second slaps.
Oh no 122, how dare you say that? That's sexist. You're sexist. Why do you hate women? We should all be so lucky to have mothers, sisters and daughters that seek the noble profession of f*ing for money.
So, the school is going to fire him right?
Isn't it "peace" and not "piece"?
NY to nipple-clamps!!!
Eliav is a complete piece of shit, and I think he's lying. The girl would not have to gone to the police, ruining her career in the process, and lied about what happened to her.
And yeah, about the grammar...this guy is a UM Professor??? Is English his sixth language? Otherwise, he should be fired for his grammar alone.
Eliav's crime is 10 times worse than what she did. However wrong and immoral she is for selling her body, she was courageous in going to the police.
Michigan 2L, I admire your courage and toughness during this ordeal. Hang in there. Dont expect people to understand how tough the world can be, especially the rich little snobs who get everything handed to them.
In the movie Rushmore, Bill Murray said the following:
"Some of you were born rich and you'll stay rich. Here's my advice to the rest of you. Take dead aim on the rich kids. Get them in the crosshairs and take them down. They can buy anything, but they cant buy backbone. Dont let them forget it."
Also, to those UM students who want UM Law to admit more Michigan residents...I welcome it. It will drop you in the rankings a few spots, so thanks.
He should be fired. That being said, she is definitely lying. Its very common mentally unstable women to make up phony rape charges.
Anyone else wishing they could set-up a three way with the 2L and Prof?
He's tenured.
53 - You ever seen a grown man naked?
93 - Your last sentence doesn't logically follow from anything else you wrote. Please try again.
Anyone else wishing they could set-up a three way with the 2L and Prof?
128 Does not see reality right in front of him. SHE MADE IT UP. SHE LIED. SHE IS NOT TELLING THE TRUTH. Therefore, what he did was NO WORSE than what he did and the police were COMPLETELY RIGHT to charge them with the same crime.
128 is pathetically naive.
Prof Eliav, I'm not sure your posts here (see, e.g., 119) are helping your cause.
I bet it was great sex!
128 Does not see reality right in front of him. SHE MADE IT UP. SHE LIED. SHE IS NOT TELLING THE TRUTH. Therefore, what he did was NO WORSE than what he did and the police were COMPLETELY RIGHT to charge them with the same crime.
128 is pathetically naive.
55: You obviously don't know jack shit about cops or what they do every day. It is very common for them to write inaccurate police reports that leave out or distort important details. You are giving the police department and the police reports they create way too much credit.
99- too funny!
55/97,
I sincerely hope that you flunk out. You don't deserve to attend Cooley, much less a T10 school like Michigan.
Unless you're Eliav, in which case you can DIAF.
Incredibly sleazy move to try and humiliate the student by publicizing her email. No class at all. That man should be fired and divorced promptly.
Wow. I don't buy his version AT ALL. Hope Michigan cans him. Irrespective of who is lying, he it stills appears that his guilty of crime, even if not that of assault.
You're right 136, its not possible for someone other than the Professor to think that she's a mental case. No, idiot, I'm not the professor. -119
VISION problems do not always manifest themselves immediately after a trauma.
As long as she has had no other trauma to the head, a physician would point to him hitting her as the likely cause of her vision problems.
I hate Michigan.
Texas
55: You obviously don't know jack shit about cops or what they do every day. It is very common for them to write inaccurate police reports that leave out or distort important details. You are giving the police department and the police reports they create way too much credit.
128 nailed it. Why would this girl go the police and ruin her entire career if nothing foul went down? I believe that he assaulted her and she went to the police because she feared for the safety of other women who may encounter this creep. I commend her for speaking out and standing up to this man even when it is obviously very humiliating to her. He should be fired immediately and she should get some counseling immediately.
Nipple torture?
At Guantanamo?
55/97,
I sincerely hope you fail all your courses. You do not deserve to attend Cooley, much less a T10 like Michigan. Hell, you don't even deserve to attend People's College of Law.
97 is absolutely right - I had the same experience. Any other police department and I'd have the same doubts, but the A2PD has not shown that kind of sexist bullshit to any of the people I've talked to.
To the people attacking 55/97 --- do you have clue what you're talking about? How closely have you worked with the police? How many crimes have you seen reported in Ann Arbor?
It's amazing that a law professor would make a public statement like this. It's pretty explicit. Is soliciting a prostitute sufficient to get your tenure pulled?
Resign dude. Stat.
Did he really send this to the entire law school?
141 is the biggest moron I've ever seen. 55 has a solid point. I sincerely hope 141 isn't in law school - I fear for the professor if he is.
135 -
First, using capital letters doesn't make you right.
also, what makes you so sure of yourself? couldn't the professor be lying? Do you have any more information than the rest of us? everyone keeps talking about her as a "mentally unstable" woman, and that she probably made it up. What about the professor? Would you call a grown man who likes to slap around prostitutes mentally stable? Isnt it equally possible that 1. she made it up or 2. he took things too far???
Sincerely,
Pathetically naive
It was probably when he gave her a Michigan Steamer that she cried foul and said "enough is enough, Mr. Steamer!!"
The Snizzz
147 is incapable of reading an entire thread before throwing out an idiotic opinion. Maybe take a minute to take it all in, jack ass. 55 already clarified the point about the cops in post 97. I hope you read cases closer than this.
Damn, Israelis are freaky deakies. Damn, he really wanted some stanky on his yarmuckles.
In some states you cannot consent to assault, so he is done either way.
In Venice, you can consent to anything.
Dear pathetically naive,
Show me a better way to place emphasis on certain words when HTML doesn't register in these posts. The caps are for emphasis, not because I think it will suddenly give you some illumination into a topic you clearly do not understand.
Moreover, what information do you have that is more than anyone else? We all saw the same thing. You think he's lying, I think she's lying. What bothers me is how many otherwise intelligent people are ASSUMING (again, just for emphasis) that she's telling the truth - yourself included.
Sincerely,
135
Either the professor is posting, or there is someone way too invested on his side. Given what we've heard it's really impossible to conclusive say one's lying and one's not.
Eliav sounds like he has some serious issues of his own. Good luck to both parties in working through these.
161 = voice of reason.
I'm assuming they are both lying.
135 --- Read your post again (at 135 not 160) and then come back and explain to us what is wrong with its logic....and then apologize for being borderline retarded.
To 161:
I've defended the guy on this and previous threads in a couple of posts, but your point is entirely valid - more than most of the posts on this website. Seeing as it is anonymous and people are so vehemently defending the student, staying neutral in tone is not easy. It feels like trying to shake reason into people who refuse to see that, like you said, either or both of them could be lying.
I agree with 162. You're the voice of reason. Thanks. I hope people will follow your lead and tone it down. While I'll still be trying to get people to stop taking her words at face value, I'll definitely tone down my posts.
Good call 118. Thus, I suggest that we watch that episode of Law and Order: SVU to determine the outcome of this case. Oh wait, was that the episode where they never told us the verdict? Damn them!
This guy is a professor at U of M?? He sounds like a complete idiot. I'm just speaking of his grammar of course - not even getting into the facts.
159--
Do you have any support for that? Unless there are states where it's illegal to perform surgery, I think you're wrong. And even if there are such states, do you have any idea if Michigan is one of them?
135 -
Caps thing was a joke. I dont have any additional info, we all have the same info, and that was the point i was making.
Agree to disagree. But, lets not accuse each other of not understanding the issue or not knowing what were talking about. Clearly, both parties are disturbed and need help.
To clarify, I always assume people are lying. Works to my benefit because most people are liers making me more often correct than I am wrong.
-163
lol feminists.
"Why would a woman go to the police and make accusations if they are not true?"
Because that is what unbalanced attention whoring hysterical women do, the same type of women who become HOOKERS and consent to BDSM despite being law students.
They are both giant douches for sending emails to the whole law school - but he doesn't deserve any more punishment than she does.
164 - I stand by my original post. ATL is the place that logic and intelligence goes to die.
I chose to vent, not win people over with my brilliant legal and logical skills. That being said, I'm damn tired of my apologist classmates acting like the girl can do no wrong. Since no one seems to want to point out that she might very well be full of shit, I'll take that job on. Not really worried about your anonymous opinion.
~135
This is such a sad sad sad day for everyone affiliated with the University of Michigan. I may have to take that degree down till this blows over.
I can't believe this prick felt that cutting & pasting her supposed message, in all its salacious glory, would somehow make him look better. What an ass.
Michigan needs to get this past them fast. Fire him. Expel her. Neither is innocent, though I tend to think he's done the greater wrong. Let the authorities figure it out.
Tenure? Can this guy not be fired on some morality clause, especially if convicted? Tenure isn't a license to kill, is it?
All Jews are the same.
-Cardozo 2L Stud
The strongest evidence that she is not lieing is that her "lie" exposes her to intense public ridicule and might possibly ruin her career forever. People generally lie to make themselves look good.
"this will conclude our coverage of these events." WTF TTT Elie? You finally get off your ass to print a halfway juicy story, and you axe it halfway through?
Nice argument: She might be lying.
You might be lying too Prof. Eliav- you certainly have a lot to lose and I highly doubt that you have been honest with anyone- especially your wife- about all this.
Reality is, I suspect the truth is somewhere in between. She is troubled- can't imagine anyone who is prostituting herself isn't troubled and you are a scumbag- can't imagine too many people soliciting prostitutes are not.
Tenure is basically a license to do anything short of committing a serious crime.
How Michigan handles this professor will be interesting. It could go either way.
There's something seriously wrong with both of these people--which I guess shouldn't come as huge shock, considering the circumstances. They both seem to WANT this to be discussed, to want the attention of their colleagues to be drawn to this matter--and that's just off.
I could understand if either had made a public statement saying "I made a mistake, and this issue will be resolved in the courts": the end. But to write these longs, overly-detailed letters about what really "went down" to any and everyone at the UM law school (and ultimately, the general public) suggests serious personality disorders on both of their parts.
Neither of them needs to be practicing based on their poor judgment and lack of discretion after the fact, standing alone. It reflects pretty badly on UM that this is the quality of their students and professors.
"The strongest evidence that she is not lieing is that her "lie" exposes her to intense public ridicule and might possibly ruin her career forever. People generally lie to make themselves look good."
When you are dealing with batshit insane women who choose to become hookers, all bets are off dooder.
168 - I think New York and Massachusetts are a couple states where you can't consent to assault. That's why nobody there plays real sports like football, basketball or hockey. It's not just because they're a bunch of liberal sissies.
If only the law could provide us with some guidance as to burdens of proof and guilt.
Oh well.
Eliav probably just got himself fired. Tenure only gives you so much protection, and hiring students as prostitutes is a stretch. Then there's the hitting. Not to mention the prof's publicizing the incident to the entire law school. He probably has stolen a few sandwiches in his time, too.
His post refers to having a lawyer - did he not consult him? Methinks the billable hours have gone way up.
This would never happen in South Carolina.
Not sure I'd want to meet 83 or 93 any more than either of the principals.
Eliav is a piece of human scum. Typical deviant academic. Hopefully the girl pursues some extra-judicial remedies.
HEY 384/A:
You ever going to respond?
-404
Holy crap... is this guy really a lawyer? What shitty writing skills and logical reasoning.
He's not a lawyer, 189. I sure hope you aren't either if that's how well you pay attention to detail. He's an undergraduate professor and English isn't his first language.
He's still an idiot and a scumbag. But you're not to bright either.
too
Professor: Google this phrase: "out of court statement offered for the truth of the matter asserted."
FWIW, this was not sent to the body of the law school. Not via lawopen or any other means.
It may not even be accurate.
this would never happen in texas
This happens in Fort Worth, Texas all the time.
this would never happen in texas
All the Prof needs is reasonable doubt, and the circumstances together her email are sufficient for me. If the slap hurt, the cross will be a killer.
This is what people in Michigan pay for? I hear CWT NY 05 chicks hand this kind of action out for free.
The sooner this story is over the better.
I guarantee the girl will become the next president of the bar association and this ass monkey of a professor will be the next dean of students.
TWOHUNDREDTHASAURUS REX!
"People generally lie to make themselves look good"
Indeed, and they also lie in order to get "sympathy." Look at some of the comments on previous threads about this, some people were willing to grant her sainthood for her courageous acts and to provide their everlasting support for such brutal victimization, notwithstanding they know no more about what happened than anyone else, which is nothing.
I don't know what happened, but I know people lie for many reasons.
So this never happens in Texas, but it happens in Texas all the time? I'm confused.
Ole Roy Wilkins from down the street
That is sure one shitty denial.
No. He is definitely not a law professor.
He is a professor of mythology.
That is sure one shitty denial.
No. He is definitely not a law professor.
He is a professor of mythology.
that's "THERAPISTS," mr. 30, not "THE RAPISTS..."
The girl's story does sound suspicious in light of the police report. It's not just a matter of the police omitting details or getting things wrong; she claims to have been beaten so severely that she feared for her life, yet the next day she goes to the station and the cop specifically notes that there isn't a mark on her? The fact that police reports sometimes leave things out isn't the point; it's what the report *does* say that seems to undermine her story.
That professor is a piece of crap. I hope he loses his job and goes to jail for what he did to that poor woman.
It would be a joy to depose this jackass. Is she telling the whole truth? Client's rarely do, including, in my experience, domestic abuse victims. But this "statement" is so chock-full of admissions it would be impossible to choose where to begin. He essentially backs up every single fact in her allegation, including, the fact that he hit her in the face twice. Its all downhill from there.
I apologize for any grammatical errors, misspellings, solecisms, regional usage, or outdated expressions in advance. And I look forward to any instructive criticism from any of the proud grammarians here.
whether shes lying or not, using the fact that she went to the police and 'risked her career' as proof that she was telling the truth is dumb.
she was a practicing prostitute. Isn't that quite a big risk on its own to her legal career?
Regardless of who's right or wrong, this professor should loose his job based on terrible writing. A brain damaged monkey could do better, I think. I guess that's the quality of professors they have at Michigan. Kind of makes sense when I think about it.
Regardless of who's right or wrong, this professor should lose his job based on terrible writing. A brain damaged monkey could do better, I think. I guess that's the quality of professors they have at Michigan. Kind of makes sense when I think about it.
208 - Clients is plural, not possessive. No apostrophe needed.
210/211: that was the best unintentional laugh I've had all day. Work on your proofreading before you mock someone else's writing next time.
192 - I'm not sure what statement you are refering to but this press realease by the prof is not hearsay. This would definitely be admissable in court. Why don't you pick up a copy of the FRE and see if you can figure out why. And then never speak again.
Regardless of who's right or wrong, this professor should lose his job based on terrible writing. A brain damaged monkey could do better, I think. I guess that's the quality of professors they have at Michigan. Kind of makes sense when I think about it.
U of M messed up colossally by not staying ahead of this situation; now there's a back and forth [accusation & defense] being played out on the list-serv? Ridiculous.
Step #1: The Dean needs to step in and quash this... immediately. Both parties' use of listserv is highly inappropriate. The school might as well sponsor a forum where the parties can air their grievances and contest the allegations and counter-allegations in front of the student body.
Step #2: Both parties need to go. Weighing which evil is worse is the wrong way to approach this. Both parties crossed a line and the axe needs to fall. To borrow again from Rushmore: nihilne sanctum est?
Step #3: Michigan football will be back and reputation and faith and confidence will be restored.
Is there anywhere online I can look for good d sucking services in the Tri State Area?
This guy is a complete scumbag
Do you like movies about Gladiators?
The truth is likely any between. Prostitutes are often assaulted, but her previous letter referencing her mental hospital stint and blood-covered room do suggest she has a flair for the dramatic. They both admit that he is a john, she is a prostitute, and they agreed to assignation involving BDSM. I can buy that he went too far, and yes, that constitutes assault, even if the victim is a hooker who intially agreed and was paid for her "services."
On the other hand, I don't buy the claims of a severe beating or fear for her life, or any of that; people who are afraid for their lives generally don't antagonize the person posing the threat by making it public to one and all.
Hmm, there were spelling errors. I believe the girl.
And he got all that at a bargain price. What's he bitchin' for?
hooking up on craigslist just got a lot harder
I want to know what their safe word was. Most people who engage in this type of thing have a safe word.
Really love how he seeks closure trying to play the "me and my family will have to deal with this for the rest of our lives" card. Sure have to, pervert.
These pretzels are making me torture nipples!
This did NOT go out to the listserv.
-UM student
219 NAILED IT. Airplane.
228 nailed it!
This guy really sucks at sex.
Why are folks hatin on these two so much? Everyone's claiming they're both crazy or creeps or troubled. She worked as a hooker -- big deal. There are lots of them and not every one is clinically insane. He's into BDSM -- great, who cares? Different strokes for different folks. Why does what they did bother folks so much. People are a little too puritanical in my opinion. The only potentially bad thing would be if he really does assault/abuse sex workers. Ordinarily, that's not part of the whole BDSM scene.
225, he's a pervert for f'ing a hooker? Or is it because he seems to be into bondage? What's your issue?
225, he's a pervert for f'ing a hooker? Or is it because he seems to be into bondage? What's your issue?
STOP HATIN' ON SADOMASOCHISTS!!!!
Why did the police not charge this guy as the "john" for his part in the prostitution. If she should be charged, so should he.
to 217- just try hanging out at Columbia accounting department/student aid office, and look for females walking away in tears, particularly grad students (less likely to have parents willing to help them out). ditto for Juliard.
217 - check Hostra they have a ton of experience at sucking. Zing!
This post is horrifying. The sexism exhibited both in the Professor's letter and in the comments makes me sick. ATL used to be such a high quality blog. Now it's essentially AutoAdmit. This exhibits the ugliest side of human nature. ATL, what are you doing?
This post is horrifying. The sexism exhibited both in the Professor's letter and in the comments makes me sick. ATL used to be such a high quality blog. Now it's essentially AutoAdmit. This exhibits the ugliest side of human nature. ATL, what are you doing?
234 - take your head out of your ass. He WAS charged and he faced punishment for it. They were charged with the SAME CRIME.
"Why would this girl go the police and ruin her entire career if nothing foul went down?"
________________________________________
LOL at "career"...Career as what? A hooker-turned-lawyer looking for a job two years from now in the worst recession of our time?
She's a hooker. She wrote an open letter to the entire school telling her story. She wants attention. Hence, she goes to the cops.
The fact that there are a few nut-job femme-nazis praising her as a hero, and there are over 200+ comments discussing her, shows exactly why she did what she did.
typoze and grammer errors til the cows come home.
glad i didn't go to U Mich.
Why did the police not charge this guy as the "john" for his part in the prostitution. If she should be charged, so should he.
I'm assuming that 241 is using his own hideous grammar to mock other posters. Otherwise, that post was just depressing.
Why are folks hatin on these two so much? Everyone's claiming they're both crazy or creeps or troubled. She worked as a hooker -- big deal. There are lots of them and not every one is clinically insane. He's into BDSM -- great, who cares? Different strokes for different folks.
__________________________________________
Uhh . . . perhaps people aren't "hating" because of their chosen sexual/commercial lives; perhaps they are just perplexed that these two have, for some reason, chosen to tell (unbidden) large numbers of complete strangers all about said sexual/commercial lives.
pictures of eliav available via google search
These two are degenerates.
Settle out of court?
Nah, settle this out back.
Long time reader, first time commenter:
UM should fire this a--clown
This guy is an illiterate, sociopathic, misogynistic, philandering, pederast. I cannot even believe how pathetic he is. The girl may be troubled, but this guy is a predator. I'm so glad I'm not associated with Michigan in any way.
I'm also glad you're not associated with Michigan. You're inability to weigh evidence from both sides would be a detriment to all rational debate at the school and we would be collectively stupider if you went here.
-UM Student
182: I believe the Giants are a NY team, right? How about the Pats?
Suck it southern goober.
Great typo 249. Jesus. I agree, 248 is a moron, but you're not helping either.
****Bar Exam follow-up****
With respect to the statements made in Section 3.B supra, a court is most likely to grant summary judgment:
A) to the plaintiff in a false light tort claim because the statements were made by the defendant without actual malice;
B) to the defendant in a tort claim alleging libel unless the published statements were not found to be newsworthy;
C) to the plaintiff in a claim alleging jactitation of marriage;
D) to the plaintiff in a tort claim alleging the public disclosure of private facts if the court found that the statements would be objectionable to average person.
A few of things:
1. Neither of them should have sent out emails to the whole school, but the fact that he is a professor makes his about a thousand times stupider and more inappropriate.
2. No matter how wonderful the Ann Arbor police may be on average, the quote in the newspaper from the cop didn't exactly ooze with professionalism - the guy made fun of an alleged assault victim in public!
3. The girl did not say she was beaten so badly that she feared for her life; she mentioned being hit AND said she was afraid for her life, the latter of which could have been for any number of reasons such as that he seemed creepy, kept trying to talk her into things she'd already said she didn't want to do, etc.
4. In the email that the professor so classily quoted from, she specifically said, "I'm not much into degradation or humiliation, or intense pain," so I'm not sure why he thinks this email is slam-dunk evidence that she wanted to be slapped in the face. I basically got the feeling that she wanted to be kinky, but not too kinky, and by his own admission he talked her into things during the encounter that she had initially not wanted to do, which may indicate that she was afraid of him.
216,
M*ch*g*n got beat by App fucking State. APP STATE! And little brother, and Charlie the Great White Fail Weis.
Wolverine football will never come back. Michigan should just take the plunge and join the MAC.
I would like just 10 minutes alone in a room with Eliav. He is the kind of shitbird that deserves to get stomped.
A few things:
1. Neither of them should have sent out emails to the whole school, but the fact that he is a professor makes his about a thousand times stupider and more inappropriate.
2. No matter how wonderful the Ann Arbor police may be on average, the quote in the newspaper from the cop didn't exactly ooze with professionalism - the guy made fun of an alleged assault victim in public!
3. The girl did not say she was beaten so badly that she feared for her life; she mentioned being hit AND said she was afraid for her life, the latter of which could have been for any number of reasons such as that he seemed creepy, kept trying to talk her into things she'd already said she didn't want to do, etc.
4. In the email that the professor so classily quoted from, she specifically said, "I'm not much into degradation or humiliation, or intense pain," so I'm not sure why he thinks this email is slam-dunk evidence that she wanted to be slapped in the face. I basically got the feeling that she wanted to be kinky, but not too kinky, and by his own admission he talked her into things during the encounter that she had initially not wanted to do, which may indicate that she was afraid of him.
HAWT story.
Suck it Michigan! Your football team is crap and so is your industry - now this. Hang your head in shame.
photo/bio of the professor in question:
http://www.umich.edu/~neareast/faculty/yzeliav.htm
http://zionistsout.blogspot.com/2008/12/um-prof-yaron-eliav-sexual-slavery-in.html
255 - be careful, have you seen "Don't Mess With the Zohan"?
239-
234 here. After pulling my head out of my ass, it appears that they both pleaded no contest to "using a computer to commit a crime."
http://www.mlive.com/annarbornews/news/index.ssf/2008/12/university_of_michigan_profess_2.html
(Forgive me for missing the single reference to that in the professor's long rant.) Of course, it still raises the question why the "prostitution/accosting and solicitation" charges (against both parties) were dropped.
Highway rest areas are the roman bathouses of the 90's
255:
Is stomping really the answer to your problem or problems?
http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=281546
1L (not from Michigan, thank God) with a couple of questions:
Does the fact that Eliav essentially corroborates the woman's story in his email mean that police can reopen the assault case against him?
Also, given the fact that he's married, how admissible would that email be in the divorce case that I assume will be coming shortly?
Finally, what the hell does this part of the email mean?
"All in all, the slaps were part of this role play experimental encounter, in which we tried to enact certain emotions and tie them with some actions"
"many of you are well trained in verifying the truth...." Agreed. And having read both sides of the story, I think it is far more likely that professor is lying.
250 - It doesn't count when you import your players from the Southern states. Where's Tom Brady from? California. Where Eli Manning from? Louisiana.
Stop pretending you're not a pantywaist and don't mess with Texas.
By the way, the Giants play in New Jersey, genius.
Girls at my high school used to consent to getting hit in the face during BDSM sessions in class all the time. It was no big deal.
This all seems like a big misunderstanding. They should start over from the first email solicitation.
This professor and his letter disgusts me. Team 2L all the way. I've found that when people are in the wrong, they fail to tell the entire story and instead nitpick details that they think help justify their cause. The short story is - he took advantage of a troubled young woman and instead of taking the high road, like the mature adult he should be, he wrote this letter in a lame attempt to justify his disgusting actions. Eliav, you make me sick and I truly hope you get what's coming to you.
Query #1: Knowing how emotionally unstable 2L is (wasn't there a suicide attempt in all of this), do the Professor or ATL flirt with liability for any damage she does to herself for recklessly publishing his manifesto, which seems likely to cause her further emotional instability?
Query #2: Why the hell didn't they have a "Safe" word? They both sound like they have experience in SMBD and role-playing. There is no excuse for not having a "Safe" word in this situation. I don't think getting slapped across the face would qualify as "intense pain."
Obviously a professor hiring a student for sex is illegal. But apparently the sex encounter continued after she got slapped the first time, and she didn't object to it. I wonder whether she has any legitimate civil or criminal claim against him for the BDSM sex.
Your thoughts?
267,
California is not a Southern state.
HTFH.
Oh so glad to be a Buckeye.....
272-- It sounds like the safe word was "don't slap me again," which she used and with which the prof complied. If the prof's account is accurate I see no reason to think that he wouldn't have desisted after the first slap had she asked him to, or that his assumption that she consented to the slapping was unreasonable prior to her statement.
Query #1: Knowing how emotionally unstable 2L is (wasn't there a suicide attempt in all of this), do the Professor or ATL flirt with liability for any damage she does to herself for recklessly publishing his manifesto, which seems likely to cause her further emotional instability?
__________________________________________
So because she's "emotionally unstable," she gets to tell her side of the story, but he doesn't get to tell his? Talk about manipulative, Borderline Personality Disorder bullshit.
"The only thing coming to me is victory."
To 276 -
I was only thinking in terms of legal liability, not fairness in telling your story.
- From 272
These pretzels are making me mysogynistic
In terms of legal liability, why would either he or anybody he chose to disseminate his story to be legally liable because she first chose to disseminate her story, and then chose to kill herself? What would the basis for such liability be?
274 - Why's that? Maybe you enjoy the unemployment that will surely face you upon graduation from Ohio STTTate?
See people, I told you the bitch was lying.
This is the craziest ATL post ever.
In honor of finals, let's spot the issues.
Ways that the professor can be either civilly or criminally liable:
1. The Lori Drew rule: unauthorized use of a computer leading to heinous results (which may or may not be illegal) is a violation of the CFAA. I would bet good money that Umich has a policy about email use. Even if this is Gmail, I think you could probably use the tortured reading of the CFAA in the Drew case to support this.
2. Assault (certainly possible for civil liability--jury could go either way on the consent issue)
3. Assorted prostitution charges--it's unclear why he wasn't charged for these.
4. The actual charge, use of a computer for a sex crime.
The funny part is that he's opened himself up to each of these in his attempt to vindicate himself. What a dumbass... deserves it for being an ass and reprinting the email.
Of course, the girl deserves to be punished similarly for the actual sex-and-solicitation part.
Both emails can be summed up as: OVERSHARE.
Now these two can both go away.
273 - Get yourself a new map.
284 = law student.
Real world lawyer = they both pled no contest to a lesser charge in order to save the taxpayer costs and the justice system time for an event that normally would be placed in proper prospective had not the participants been a drama queen law student and a professor who should be dumped. The legalities are done. Most likely neither will have any real criminal penalties, maybe a small fine and minimal public service.
Most likely: 2L is an unstable individual that needs therapy (and her credibility should be matched to her lack of stability, does anyone think her life was in danger? Its a slap in the face to real sexual assault victims-no pun intended), not a bunch of idiotic enablers. Prof. = sleaze that shouldn't have a cushy job given his severe lack of judgment.
At any rate, there isn't any outrageous injustice here.
It's not misogyny, nor is it elitism bred of old money, to think that a suicidal young woman prostituting herself, especially to sexually deviant professors, is a sad thing. The world sucks, sometimes you have to do unseemly things to reach the brass rings for which you grasp, and if engaging in the oldest of professions was her only way of financing entry into our profession, more's the pity. That her circumstances were dire and dark does not excuse the fact that she contracted to sell herself, and that there appears to be some understanding that BDSM elements would be involved. The $64,000 question remains unanswered (probably because we're not physicians): if she got slapped in the face hard enough to blur her vision the next day, wouldn't she have exhibited bruising? If the answer is no, we're back to square one. This is a sad morality tale that might've escalated past the boundaries of "acceptably sordid," depending on whose version of events you believe. If bruising would ordinarily result, and it wasn't included in the police report, you'd have to believe the AA police are either supremely incompetent or maliciously sexist, and either missed or supressed some pretty vital evidence. I can't say that's likely, but it's not like it's never happened before in other cities with other women.
The professor, however, is a pathetic character. He could use a calling-out by Douche Patrol, both for his email and his sexual preferences. Whether or not he "assaulted" the Michigan 2L is, I suppose, the legal question, but it's now been hijacked by the professor's bedroom fantasies. Good job of clearing your name. Maybe she's right, maybe you're right, maybe you're both partly right, but in the moral sense, she's sad and you, professor, are simply wrong.
"and if engaging in the oldest of professions was her only way of financing entry into our profession"
Its not.
-Reality speaking.
My take is that when she woke up in the morning, she felt disgusted with herself. The second slap was the last straw--just an overly potent symbol of how far she'd fallen. She calculated wrongly that the police would see her as a sympathetic victim instead of the perpetrator that she is.
Cops don't want to be bugged. If you go them with anything other than clean hands, you should expect to get cuffed.
They both deserve what they're getting. But it's a bummer that two lives were ruined because of her miscalculation/
The dirty prof writes about sexual slavery. How ironic.
The real story here is that this guy is a PROFESSOR at MICHIGAN, which is supposed to be an elite institution. I went to as "TTT" an undergrad as you can imagine, but I'm positive we didn't have professors pulling this kind of crap. UM alums should be outraged that this guy still has a job, and that he was even hired to begin with.
I'm a strong proponent of public shaming. So here is a picture of the disgraced professor of Hebrew and Jewish Cultural Studies at the University of Michigan:
http://www.umich.edu/~hjcs/people/
292 - where's a picture of the lying M2L to go along with that public shaming? Let's play fair if we're gonna play at all. She's a liar, plain and simple and she deserves some of this too.
Attention Feminists:
By championing the cause of women such as Michigan 2L, you are damaging your own cause. Unless you want to be associated with mentally-unbalanced BDSM prostitutes, I suggest you learn how to choose your battles.
And now, a word from Lord Chief Justice Sir Matthew Hale:
"Rape is an accusation easily to be made, hard to be proved, and harder yet to be defended by the party accused, tho' never so innocent."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Hale_(jurist)
No matter what happened, this is disgusting. The girl invited a response by going to ATL and then the list serv, but this was needlessly harsh. Eliav's decision to quote her email negotiating sexual specifics serves no purpose, and is clearly only meant to shame her further. Now, in addition to knowing what generally went down, everyone that sees her will know to twist her nipples, but not to aim it for the poop shoot. This is a pathetic dig at the woman.
Oh please 296. Really? You think the only possible reason he could have for posting that is to put her down? Really? You must not have anything even approaching middle school level critical thinking skills.
In her letter she accused him of penetrating her against her will, claimed he was out of control, claimed she was afraid for her life and thanked a God she didn't used to believe in for saving her from him.
Perhaps it is somewhat relevant what she is like when she's not playing the victim, hmm? Her e-mail certainly doesn't show her to be the scared, hunted little vixen that she is attempting to show the ATL and Michigan community. Perhaps, just perhaps, having been attacked without proof by this woman, he decided to show a little evidence.
IF, and I do mean IF, since we do not have access to his e-mail to verify it..... IF that truly is the letter she sent to him... it completely invalidates her charge that it was non-consensual. If her pet interest really is BDSM, then slapping is rightfully assumed to be in bounds until it is proclaimed out of bounds.
So maybe, just maybe, it was in there to show that she was lying. No, I'm sure you believe that a mental ward released a suicidal woman to her apartment alone and let her clean up her own blood from her suicide attempt. I'm sure you're just waiting to be a knight in shining armor to some crazy bitch like her.
Here's news for you - that's not how the real world works.
I think this whole thing is indicative of the political correctness run amok that is law school today. J's a female, so she must be the victim. E's is a male, so he must be guilty.
Thank god J's not black.
Let this FUCKING story die......Don't you all have exams. This whole entire fiasco makes me sick to my stomach. The law student, the professor, his poor wife, the university, and the dumb asses who continue to discuss this.
"An intellectual is someone who has found something more interesting than sex."
Edgar Wallace
He sent it to the entire law school? For real? How did I miss this? Did other MLS students really receive this?
I think by stating her pet interest in BDSM and saying in her email that she is a true sub, she represented that she was consenting to being slapped in the face.
Maybe the rest of you aren't as kinky as some us, but hitting and slapping is one of the major components of S&M.
It seems that she was the one to breach the contract.
I don't care what his first language is, if he can't write better than he did in that letter or at least have the sense to have a native speaker (his lawyer, perhaps) proof his writings in English WTF is he doing teaching in this country?
What more do we need to know about this guy? He's a pervert, a deviant, cheats on his wife, disregards his family merely for sex, slaps and hits women as part of his sick fantasies, thinks all of this is okay, and can't help himself but humiliate her again in writing. A prince among men.
Why humiliate her with this letter? Probably b/c for at least the time being he's being watched closely enough by his family and colleagues that he is not able to pay to physically humiliate women to get off. Dudes a serial scum bag and not altogether very bright given the way he's handled his life and this crisis.
Scrawny, homely, language-impaired douche who has to pay for violent sex to get his jollies is all I see here. Sickly, sadly pathetic little man.
259, notice how your racism from the last post never quite made it in here?
Even citing to a racist blog is not going to help you turn this into a story supporting your hatred of Jews.
301: Don't be daft -- plenty of subs don't like to be slapped, and there's no 'normal' list of acceptable behaviors for any given sub.
And, seriously, professor, it's not like young sub women are hard to find; why flirt with disaster by pursuing a student in your own law school?
301: Don't be daft -- plenty of subs don't like to be slapped, and there's no 'normal' list of acceptable behaviors for any given sub. Maybe she's more into the BD than the SM.
And, seriously, professor, it's not like young sub women are hard to find; why flirt with disaster by pursuing a student in your own law school?
Seriously, professor, young sub women aren't hard to find; why flirt with disaster, make yourself look like an idiot and ruin your own reputation (assuming you had one) by paying a student in same university for the pleasure?
So that description of her e-mail to him really made me want her. Can anyone tell me if she's hot? I promise I wouldn't cross the boundaries she sets.
304 - you miss the point. She consented to an activity that reasonably could include what he did. It wasn't out of no where, it wasn't assault, it wasn't a brutal beating. She consented to submission sexual activity with him and FOR MANY PEOPLE a big part of that is slapping.
The onus was on HER to be more clear. When she was more clear, he didn't do it again. That, for me, is proof enough that he didn't break any law (besides the obvious prostitution thing that they BOTH did).
I bet that all the same people who are saying "let's not discuss this anymore, let the story die" were the same politically-correct saps who were pouring out sympathy for this dumb twat in the previous thread.
Dearest 309,
No, I was saying that from the beginning. This story brings shame to everyone involved.
ATL has become nothing more than a mere trash blog with petty people prying into other people's private lives.
As I quoted before:
"An intellectual is someone who has found something more interesting than sex."
Edgar Wallace
Amen 309! Now that they know their new Virgin Mary is no better than the idiot Professor they want to make their collective shame at backing the wrong horse go away. Its the worst kind of spinelessness.
301,
Contract would be void for illegality=no breach.
I don't care about her name, but can someone link a pic?
So was she hot?
Anti-Rape Boosh!!!
-Awesome X
It's curious how so many Virgin Mary defenders are criticizing the guy's grammar. Get over it. He's not a native English speaker. He's not writing in a professional journal, but in an email. He probably wrote it quickly. He did not make major spelling errors or incomprehensible grammar mistakes. Everyone understood everything he was trying to say.
The Virgin Mary defenders must be really desperate when they stoop to such a low and trivial level to attack the other side. See, his grammar sucks, that must mean he is a bad evil pervert! How sad when this is the best argument.
Notice how nobody criticized the girl's grammar mistakes? Because the critics had actual substantive and thoughtful comments about her credibility or lack thereof.
The emperor has no clothes, and the batshit insane girl is a total liar who was asking for "spankings" in her email. It's Crystal Mangum all over again.
302-
I agree with everything you say except for your assertion that scholars with less than stellar English shouldn't be "teaching in this country." You've obviously never had any exposure to say, the math or physics department at Harvard. Most of the scholars are foreign born and education, speak with very thick accents, and don't use the indefinite article.
300 -- I didn't get this e-mail either.
Elie, I'm pretty sure this is a hoax - it certainly didn't get sent to the law school listserv. Do you have any proof?
-- another Michigan 2L
think she'd do anal for an SA position?
I also believe he mostly teaches HEBREW to undergrads, a class where your grasp of Hebrew grammar is what counts. U of M is such a shitty institution that it actually finds native speakers to teach languages. Gasp!
274-
Let us all know how it feels to be a Buckeye after the Fiesta Bowl. I'm guessing "not good"
274,
How does it feel to suck Brutus' nuts five years in a row?
or App State?
192 - Not sure what you're saying would be excluded as hearsay. If you are referring to the e-mail, I do not think it would be offered for its truth (i.e., that she likes to have her nipples clamped). Rather it would come in to show its effect on the listener (reader), which is not hearsay. I believe that under FRE 412, this would still be a permissible use of the e-mail to show consent, even though it relates to a sex crime.
the hearsay point is that this e-mail is a statement against interest in which he admits to having solicited a prostitute (and possibly to an assault). It would be admissible as evidence against him for the truth of the matter asserted - that he solicited a prostitute and hit her. The consent is a jury question, and this is admissible evidence.
The more interesting question is double-jeopardy - he plead to use of a computer; is that a distinct act from the prostitution act (meaning he could still be charged) or is it all one criminal act (so jeopardy has attached)? I think that if he was initially charged with the prostitution and assault, but they dropped it as part of the plea deal, then jeopardy attached as to those acts. If all they charged was the computer crime, then the others may be fair game.
Does it take an L.A. (T20) TTT 3L to explain this to all of you?
Everyone seems to love him on Ratemyprofessors.com. Apparently he is Woody-Allen-esque.
324 - There was no need for snarkiness in your post, especially since your analysis is incomplete. A statement against interest is only admissible against an unavailable declarant. FRE 804(b)(3). Presumably, the professor will be present at trial. The only way the letter could come in would be if he asserted his 5th Amendment privilege.
Also, I haven't read the whole history here, but if he had already admitted to soliciting a prostitute, I would imagine his lawyer being able to argue that the letter was not so far against his pecuniary interest as to fall under the 804(b)(3) exception.
Again, I'm not trying to get into a pissing contest with you. I was generally interested in what you were saying. I did not put that I go to a T5 school or have an offer at a V5 firm, and I did not mean to phrase my reply in a challenging manner. If you go to UCLA, we probably have friends in common. Happy Holidays!
I agree.
This professor and his letter both utterly disgust me.
He did not send that to the law school. Or if he did, no one got it.
There's no way he would be on law open anyway, even if he were a law professor... it's only for law students. He would have had to do it through an intermediary like the 2L did.
27: Here! Hair!
I also believe he mostly teaches HEBREW to undergrads, a class where your grasp of Hebrew grammar is what counts.
__________________________________________
He teaches HEBREW at an American university, and the U.S. is an English-speaking country--he should have better English language skills, or perhaps he should have released his statement in HEBREW if his English is so poor.
And then you claim it's "political correctness" run amok, while (yet again) rationalizing the failings of (yet another) mediocre white man (I guess you identify).
Yeah--thank god he isn't black, because then you would have worked yourselves into a frenzy over "URMs" and AA quota hiring. Why did they hire this perverted, intellectually inferior loser, who can't even write a single coherent English sentence and is apparently incapable of even the most basic logic?
Rumors/allegations of this nature (i.e. sexual harassement and assault) have been circulating about this man in Israel since the nineties. I was never sure about them, having not known the victims nor this man personally. Given the number of rumored/alleged victims, and this recent incident (the details of which we still all know not much, let's face it), I'm now tending towards being less skeptical.
I took my evidence final a few days ago and the hearsay discussion is giving me PTSD flashbacks. Make the yelling stop!! All I can hear is Scalia yelling at me that I don't understand what "testimonial" means, and that "unavailability" doesn't mean the same thing all the time.
326 - If you are talking about the letter being used against him, its statement of party-opponent, by definition not hearsay 801(d)(2). Don't call other peoples analysis incomplete when yours is off the mark completely. (Im not 324 btw, who is also off)
326 - If you are talking about the letter being used against him, its statement of party-opponent, by definition not hearsay 801(d)(2). Don't call other peoples analysis incomplete when yours is off the mark completely. (Im not 324 btw, who is also off)
326 - If you are talking about the letter being used against him, its statement of party-opponent, by definition not hearsay 801(d)(2). Don't call other peoples analysis incomplete when yours is off the mark completely. (Im not 324 btw, who is also off)
333-335 you are right, you are also however a complete douche for not learning how to post properly. I do have to give you props for beating me to the 801(d)(2) argument. If I had only gone on ATL when I first came in this morning I could have saved you from the multiple-post by beating you to the correct answer. I think this was hit before but the email can also come in as non-hearsay because it is being offered to show the effect on the reader and not for the truth of the matter asserted. None of this matters though because he plead no contest to the computer charge. And since the underlying crime for the computer charge is the solitication and the entire incident involved there in this should be double jeopardy. It really shouldn't matter because his lawyer should have drafted a plea agreement precluding any prosecution for this incident. Which means that this statement doesn't matter because he can't be prosecuted for any of this now.
This girl THOUGHT she was all into BDSM until she tried to play with the big dogs... she got pissed when it wasn't all nice or as sexy as she imagined it, so she ran crying to the police.
Don't play the game if you can't take it like an adult.
Right on 337
Yeah, I mean this girl signed on to be in my snuff film and then the police got all pissed at me when I killed her. I mean what the hell!
339, BDSM is not illegal.
HTH, retard.
330- the fact that you think perfect English is the most important criterion for teaching at an American institution of higher learning shows that you probably went to Appalachian Buttmunch State satellite campus. Because at any elite university, they try to hire the preeminent scholars in their fields, which often means hiring foreign-born foreign-educated scholars. Look at this guy's resume, it's amazing. As a former PhD student in Eliav's field, I can tell you that his credientials are impeccable.
340, it should be, people who do that stuff are fucking sick. Crawl into a hole and die, deviant.
Incidents like these show that the true sexual deviants are straight people.
straight vanilla people, you mean
In case the law student is reading this, maybe you should consider dropping out of law school? It will be very difficult for you to get a job or secure admission to the bar with this on your record. Please for your own sake, financially and personally, step away and reconsider your options in life.
In case the law student is reading this, maybe you should consider dropping out of law school? It will be very difficult for you to get a legal job or secure admission to the bar with this on your record. Please for your own sake, financially and personally, step away and reconsider your options in life.
In case the law student is reading this, maybe you should consider dropping out of law school? It will be very difficult for you to get a legal job or secure admission to the bar with this on your record. Please for your own sake, financially and personally, step away and reconsider your options in life.
In case the law student is reading this, maybe you should consider dropping out of law school? It will be very difficult for you to get a legal job or secure admission to the bar with this on your record. Please for your own sake, financially and personally, step away and reconsider your options in life.
336 - I am a douche for the multiple posts (It was accidental!). I'm not particularly interested in any criminal prosecutions - but what about the 2L pursuing a tort claim? Is there an per se rule against such a suit? I don't remembering covering suits brought by prostitutes first year, and I imagine that demographic is probably litigation adverse so there wouldn't much case law. It would be one hell of a trial to watch though.
-333
Yeah, sure, so I meant it's a party admission - which is really an exception the hearsay ban, except that the rules (just for the sake of being complicated) make that not hearsay. In my notes for 804(b)(3), I even have that it applies only to non-parties, because if a party says it, it's an 801(d)(2). The result is the same - it's in.
The more interesting question is whether the computer crime and the prostitution/possible assault are all part of one incident for jeopardy purposes. I'm curious if anyone thinks they might not be.
Also, I think this e-mail would definitely be useful for civil purposes.
My point in mentioning that I'm at a T20 was not to bolster my credentials, but to show that I'm grossly underqualified according to most people on here, such as you, 326. I admitted it was a TTT, and was shocked that no one had posted the correct answer yet - of course, I should have checked my notes before posting, rather than after learning that I was wrong on a technicality.
(and by the way, 326, you did mention that you're a T5 with a V5, so thanks for proving my point.)
Happy Holidays,
324
I would do anal for a job.
To 333 (and 334 and 335) I realize that it could come in as a party admission, but as the previous poster didn't mention that exception, I didn't bring it up. My evidence final is over, and I'm not trying to look at this situation as some fact pattern, I simply asked the initial poster what exactly he was referring to, because I was curious, not because I was trying to call anyone out.
And to 350 - you're right, I did eventually mention the whole T5/V5 thing. But, what's the point of going to those schools and getting positions at those firms if you can't brag about them to a bunch of strangers on the internet?
As for being underqualified because you go to a T20, I would say that I know plenty of people from lower ranked law schools who are much smarter than the people I know at Harvard, Stanford, Columbia and NYU. Honestly, I would say that the only difference between a top-ranked law school, and one a little further down the line is the depth of the classes. The smartest people at UCLA are just as smart as the smartest people at Harvard (except, I suppose the Posners and the future SCOTUS judges). The distinction lies more in the bottom 25% of the class.
At any event, to both 350 and 334, I wish you nothing but the best. Thank you for pointing out things I didn't see. Good luck with the rest of finals (if you have any), and enjoy your breaks!
We are all wrong. We have been debating the FEDERAL Rules of Evidence, when this case (either crim or civil) would be a MI state case. Their hearsay rules may vary from the feds. We lose.
Happy Holidays!
324/350
Would it be a MI state case for a civil suit? Are they both MI residents?
I find it interesting that no one has mentioned how this reflects on our culture. As one of the most egalitarian countries in the world with respect to gender rights, does it not seem shocking to anyone else that the majority of the commenters (and the police) immediately take aim at the female law student in this situation? Just because you might not do this, doesn't mean that you can't try to empathize with her situation. Say you're a law student at a "prestigious law school" and you find you can't pay your rent. No one to help you and not much time to do anything about it. So you need to earn some extra money. What would you do? Steal? Apply for State Emergency Relief? Or have sex for money? It is, after all, the world's oldest profession. Women have been putting themselves through college this way for decades. Calm down, everyone. It's just sex. Want to make a moral judgment? Why not jump on the tenured male professor with four small children who makes a date with a prostitute more than twenty years his junior for some rough sex and then has the nerve to write a letter to the law school community quoting the email exchange that the two had setting up the date _in his defense_.
Let's see. A twenty-two year old girl without much life experience about to get kicked out of her apartment into the cold who is just using what she has to get by in a very difficult situation, or a grown man with a family, in a position of responsibility, who decides to beat a young woman because he thinks he can get away with something? Let alone all his arguments that it was "a conversation." Where was the power in that dynamic? A girl who needs the money, in a room alone with a man who thinks he can do whatever he wants and shows this by hitting her in the face (which he admits). When Catherine McKinnon said that all penetration is rape, this is exactly what she meant. Not that there was no non-consensual sex, but that our society is still so imbalanced on this issue, that it's not possible for a woman to make this decision outside the pressure of societal influence.
Hang your heads, people. This is on us. Where were any of us when she needed help? Where are any of us when so many women resort to this and are treated badly? Is this really a pull-yourselves-up-by-your-bootstraps kind of country we live in?
354: you just outed yourself as having failed civ pro and probably crim law. my condolences
Is this that Erie Doctrine thing? We actually never covered that in my Civ Pro class, so not only am I not sure what Rules of Evidence would apply in a civil case taking place in Federal Court in MI, but that ignorance did not effect my grade at all.
342, I'm guessing you weren't a fan of Lawrence v. Texas or Griswold v. Connecticut either, eh?
355: Well said.
"Is this really a pull-yourselves-up-by-your-bootstraps kind of country we live in?"
If only.
After reading the first 60 or so comments, I can honestly say that you are all fucking retarded. And I hope to god none of you are actual law students or anyone of real importance.
Hey 355, I was really connecting with the first part of your starting paragraph; that was, until I realized you're a fucking idiot.
While I admire the fact that you attempted to employ a little one-sided empathizing, I'll explain to you why you're thinking is retarded: This is ALL THE GIRL'S FAULT. All she had to do was NOT GO TO THE POLICE. It is obvious from the e-mail, she knew what she was getting in to. She got paid, and the ordeal was over. She then decided to be a giant life-ruining cunt and SHE WENT TO THE POLICE. This whole scandal could have been avoided if SHE HAD NOT GONE TO THE POLICE. It wasn't necessary. She did it to be a cunt. And now she's regretting her horrible decision.
Now please, stop pitying this sac of worthless human flesh. Her reasoning for making her own terrible decisions are worthy of getting hit and killed by a car. And in her attempt to save the "next poor victim he'd contract with" (like maybe his wife), she ended up ruining the lives of Eliav, his family, and her own. Now all we can do is hope the next attempt she makes at her life is a successful one.
I found her name on the Ann Arbor criminal court's site in a heartbeat (search for Eliav and you won't have much trouble). I think it's only fair that both of them be named, though I won't take it upon myself to name her here.
355 - Your call for empathy is admirable, but if you were to pay a bit closer attention you'd see that the comments turned negative when it became clear that she was lying.
I, for one, was among those pointing out the need for patience and compassion when the first and second postings were made. It cannot be easy to suffer that sort of embarrassment.
However, HER letter to the ATL and Michigan community it was makes it clear that she is a liar. Even before the professor responded, her comments like having clean up after her own suicide attempt alone and that she was penetrated by him against her will. These things compete with the public record of fact and with basic logic.
To have empathy for her I have to believe that every cop and every mental health worker in Ann Arbor is either incompetent and in dire need of replacement or wrapped up in a conspiracy to deprive this one girl of justice.
I choose to believe what the facts point me toward - she is a liar. A prostitute deserves sympathy. An assault victim deserve sympathy. A con artist deserves spit in their eye for every bit of credibility they steal from true victims.
Oh, the terrible, mortal sin of lying. You're right. That totally justifies heartless name calling. Because none of us has ever lied in a difficult situation. Actually, the ability to lie is a psychological defense mechanism. I doubt anyone on this board has made it through life this far without lying, and perhaps lying every day without even thinking about it.
362: Is it just on the internet that you are so rude, or are you always like this? A more reasonable response would have made you look better.
I imagine myself in her position, though I am fortunate to have never been that desperate. It's true that we don't really know what went on exactly. We don't know what either one of them was thinking. What we do know is that blaming the woman for "ruining the man's life" is an unrealistic and unhealthy way of looking at this. People have to take responsibility for their actions, granted. Given the situation, given the life circumstances of the two people involved, the man had more reason that the woman not to do this if "life ruining" was a consideration, which apparently it wasn't. As lawyers, or future lawyers, you may be aware that in difficult times, the poorest have the least to lose. Someone who is being sued and owns no property, has no income, is uncollectable. Not true of someone with land, a good job and a car. This is a very similar situation. One of them had a lot more to lose than the other. One of them bore his family's and community's and school's expectations of responsibility and upright behavior. He took the risk that someone would find out about this when he decided to do it. To say that because the woman "got paid," she should have had to take whatever he did to her in silence is just plain ridiculous and makes me worry about your future relationships. Violence is not an expectation that comes with sex. Sex crimes have to do with force and violence. That you all are expecting a young women, new to this situation, to behave like a seasoned sex worker is a little naive. That you believe that sex workers in general should have to put up with violence shows deeper issues.
What the letter that the law student wrote shows is that she is confused, depressed woman who is having difficulty dealing with the public reaction to her behavior, that in fact she didn't expect what happened, and that apparently no one else decided to beat and slap her in her previous encounters. The piece of email that the professor included in his letter is obviously marketing. How do you get clients unless you tell them what they want to hear? (What should she have said? Oh, I don't really like sex. I'm just doing this for the money. THAT would get her a lot of business.) It is not permission to beat her up, as she explicitly says she doesn't like real pain or other injury.
If I had decided that prostitution was the only way that I could get the money I needed not to become homeless, and I found myself naked in a room with a man who wanted to beat me and I agreed to it and then found that it really was too rough, I think I'd be scared, as many women in this situation have probably been scared. And if he then slapped me, I think I would decide that he was too weird and too scary, but could I safely leave? I'd be thinking about my options. If I said, "I changed my mind. I don't want to go through with this," what would he do? Wouldn't he suspect I might tell someone? Wouldn't he try to force me to stay? He's obviously capable of violence. Things running through my mind: clothes, door, help. There was no trust in this situation. How did she know what he was capable of? I completely understand how she could have made the decision to go to the police.
The fact that he used the police report to mention "verifiable facts" I think that he is hiding something. Anyways, this is embarrasing conduct for a prof to engage in. I hope he gets fired.
It is not hard to find the girls name. Just go through court records in washtenaw country for the past month and it would be really easy.
This man should be fired, not because of the allegations, but because of his poor command of English! ..and he calls himself a professor??
Now I ain't sayin' she a gold-digger,
But she ain't messin' wit' no broke, broke . . .
I have to check XOXOHTH to see if they have pictures of this girl. I picked a bad time to stop reading ATL.
Go Eliav! Hope our university hires you after UMich kicks you to the curb.
Eliav is a serial sexual offender. He has been sexual assaulting women in Israel since the nineties. It is an open secret in Israel. And in Ann Arbor he is a notorious sexual harasser of women. To his most recent victim, I extend my sincere sympathies, not only for what you suffered due to this rather sick individual, but also for having to endure (some) peers who are morally and emotionally lacking. I don't think that you owe anyone an apology. If anything, the Law School (peers and admin) should be rallying around one of their own, who has been the victim of an assault.
370 - I'm so glad you wrote. Eliav sexually harassed me in rather explicit terms. And I know about three other people whom he has harassed/assaulted, two of whom I know personally.
370/371-
this are not accusations to be made lightly in a public forum. I hope for your sake and Eliav's that you're not bullshitting.
370-371 probably same person (posting 6 minutes apart after days with no real action on list…), an Eliav hater who has been running around the various blogs writing the same note, almost verbatim. It's pathetic how someone thinks we are all so dumb that we will just buy into the liable without any proof. They/he/she are probably frustrated by the fact that so many people are realizing the extent of lies that are being generated by this case (e.g. 364).
Merry Christmas!
Thank you for being the voice of reason, 373.
THIS girl in THIS case wants nothing more than sympathy and attention, but SHE deserves neither. Assault victims, rape victims, harassment victims ALL deserve sympathy and help from the legal system regardless of the mistakes they've made.
However, THIS case cannot be proven because she lies so much about so many details. 365 is an idiot to think that people would be attacking an ASSAULT VICTIM. Whoever made that post missed the POINT of calling her out for lying --- because she lied about the details means we can't be sure of anything else.
It is not that lying is 'oh such a horrible offense'. It is that we shouldn't give her the sympathy and comfort of someone who was assaulted if we don't know whether or not she was assaulted. I lean toward NOT.
~364