More Shock Doctrine: Wilmer Hale ‘Clarifies’ Late Night Meals Policy
We’ve reported on various firms cutting back some of the “perks” that used to be associated with Biglaw. But Wilmer Hale has decided to hit associates where they eat, literally.
A memo went out to New York associates “updating” the firm’s overtime meal policy. For you law students out there who are not aware of the system, law firms usually allow lawyers to charge late night meals to clients. A long, long time ago astute managers realized that underlings perform better when they are fed. Apparently, there is a complex biological process that allows workers to convert the nutrients found in bread and water into menial legal tasks.
But Wilmer Hale has concluded that adenosine triphosphate is an “optional” luxury for associates lucky enough to work past 8 p.m. Paul A. Engelmayer, managing partner of Wilmer Hale’s New York office, clarified the overtime meals policy this afternoon:
The firm’s policy is to reimburse lawyers and bill clients for up to $30 per overtime meal not simply because a lawyer is present and working at the office at 8PM, but, rather, because the lawyer had to be here at that time to meet a specific client need or deadline. Just because a lawyer chose to work late does not mean that a client should have to pay for his or her food. Partners are constantly writing off evening meals billed to clients where it was impossible to justify to the client why they should be paying for a lawyer’s food. Please don’t bill clients for overtime meals where there isn’t a justification that you’d feel comfortable articulating to the client as to why the client should be paying for it.
I once knew a New York associate who always “chose” to work past 8 p.m. for no good reason. He was a great guy and a good attorney, until “the incident.” Now he lives at Bellevue and eats pudding out of a Redweld.
Look, we all know some associate at the firm who “abuses” the overtime meal system. But the vast majority of people who are working after hours are there because they have to be, not because they want to be and certainly not because Seamless Web is a bigger draw than a beer and a bed.
But Wilmer Hale presses the point, after the jump.
If Wilmer Hale had just left their “update” at that, most associates would have likely taken the whole thing as management boilerplate that had no chance of being enforced in any meaningful way. But Engelmayer really wanted to press the point that associates should not be eating on the company dime:
In some instances, a lawyer may choose to work late here, past 8PM, to catch up on assembled work (sometimes on multiple cases) where there is no client-specific urgency. In such instances, it may be appropriate to bill the firm, though not the client, for the meal. But even there, we ask that people use their judgment and be fiscally responsible.
Hey, maybe this is a genuine attempt by Wilmer Hale to make sure that associates are getting out of the office by 8 p.m. Quality of life is important right?
If you independently were going to work past 8PM anyway regardless of the meal policy, and had logged the requisite 10.5 hours as reflected in the memo [Redacted] circulated, then it’s OK to put in for reimbursement.
Independently going to work past 8 p.m.? I have no idea what that means in the context of this memo. Didn’t Engelmayer just say that nobody should be working past 8 p.m. absent a pressing client deadline?
I think you have to take this memo as blanket cover to deny meal reimbursements to any associate for whatever reason, while maintaining the expectation that associates will be working past 8 p.m. on a regular basis.
Paying for your own food is not a novel concept. Free late night meals is a “perk.” But the firm shouldn’t be taking away a perk and acting as if it is a “clarification” or an “update.”
Just be straight with people: “times are tough, our clients are struggling, try to finish everything by 8 p.m., and if you can’t be prepared to bring your own food.” Contrary to popular belief, associates as a rule are not spoiled brats. They just expect to be treated fairly and in way that is on par with the rest of their peers. If Wilmer Hale wants to take away this perk, just be honest about that and I’m sure both prospective and current associates can take that new information into account when it comes time to decide where they want to work.
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first
First to the Skadden buffet
FIRSTl, HA!
FIRST to be shocked
This is bizarre. Compared to the hundreds of dollars associates are billed out at per hour, do any clients really care about the odd $25 meal charges?
I usually don't notice much or really care about the grammar/typos, but...damn, Elie.
This is bizarre. Compared to the hundreds of dollars associates are billed out at per hour, do any clients really care about the odd $25 meal charges?
1- awesome job. i wish i knew you.
I am shocked, shocked that the editor of this blog is appalled by this new policy.
Elie likes food. By the way, cut the talking points memo at the end of your posts. We get it...
second the comment by #5-- a $25 dinner is equal to about six minutes of attorney time. Focusing on the meals is really missing the point. Wilmer is pretty stupid for cutting back on a perk that isn't even that significant in dollar figures but is going to make everyone pretty annoyed at the firm.
Elie, what is ATL's overtime meal policy? KFC big bucket family meal if you post past 7 ET?
I agree with Elie.
$30 is a rounding error in an associate's time entry for the DAY.
It's less than 0.1 hours billed.
"Constantly writing off meals" probably costs the firm less than $10,000 a year.
I think this policy is pretty stupid.
It's Redwell.
wait for it...
At least so far Wilmer DC has sent nothing of the sort to the associates. I've never heard of anyone being given grife over an overtime meal.
Oh my God Elie you are the biggest whiner, both figuratively and literally.
Dumb -- the firm shouldn't bill these "unnecessary" meals to clients, but if the associate is willing to work late to get in some extra billing, the firm should eat the nominal cost of the meal.
BREAKING NEWS!!!
Well, I have notice an uptick in clients bitching about their bills, for no good reason.
Who views this as a PERK???? I'd rather be working from home eating something i cooked in front of my computer than eating shi**Y takeout any day.
11- the rational response
12- the credited response
Well, I have notice an uptick in clients bitching about their bills, for no good reason.
Well, I have notice an uptick in clients bitching about their bills, for no good reason.
It's definitely Redweld.
14, i think it's actually redweld.
14 - no, it's redweld, idiot
11- the rational response
12- the credited response
14 - you're a moron. It is redweld. Go look it up...
Memo to Wilmer Hale associates: the Firm currently wastes tens of dollars per year on unnecessary pencil lead expenses. Please do not click out new lead for your mechanical pencils, unless the pencil lead already protruding from your pencil is undeniably too short to write with. But even there, we ask that people use their judgment and be fiscally responsible.
I have a friend named Frank.
Frank works at Fried Frank.
While working late at Fried Frank, Frank often orders fried franks.
Frankly, I don't see a problem with Frank billing clients for the fried franks he orders while working late at Fried Frank.
14 -it's Redweld
29 - it's Redweld
31--I'm pretty sure your friend doesn't work at Fried Frank anymore...
Elie - Lat often was provocative but never preachy. You don't seem to understand the distinction. He also knew the difference between important and trivial and this too seems lost on you. You would have been better off doing work before quitting to comment on it.
What is up with the 10.5 billables requirement? so you are saying if a client calls at 5 pm and i'm stuck till midnight they won't pay?
got my first ding from a firm. :(
*eyes slowly water up for what promises to be a long and discouraging job hunt*
-nervous T-10 1L
email job leads to nervoust101l@yahoo.com
17: is there a difference between being a figurative and literal whiner? aren't both of those people constantly whining?
35 - yes, although it's unclear whether it is a per client minimum or a total day minimum. It is rare that I bill 10.5 hours to a single client in a day. . .
This is really cheap. A cap on the amount is sufficient.
5: yes. It's low hanging fruit, and clients sure as hell don't want to pay for a dinner for an associate because they happened to choose to work on that particular assignment late in the day. I routinely cut meals out of my bills.
31 - you want an award for being witty and creative? How about a corn shoved up your a$$?
Confused 3L here...I thought the policy for most firms was "work until 8pm, free dinner." So, my plan was to work until 8pm every night, take my free dinner and then head home. Am I missing something? Is this not appropriate?
I am absolutely, 100% sure it is spelled and pronounced R-E-D-W-E-L-L. I looked it up on google.com, ever heard of it?
Why don't they just lower the limit and get rid of this ridiculously discretionary and unenforceable system?
42: You forgot about taking a car home, too.
Everyone has missed the most important aspect of this purported policy change, namely that associates must bill 10.5 hours before being eligible for a meal reimbursement. I am routinely given work late int he afternoon after a slow day where I bill less than 10.5 hours AND stay past 10pm for urgent work. Is the firm's policy that I should pay for my dinner in that circumstance as well?
I think that this is ridiculous, especially when most people I know that even bill the meal to the client end up grabbing a burrito and a soda for like 8 bucks or something.
Such petty bullshit.
Anyone who, after looking it up, honestly thinks it is Redwell and not Redweld has to either be a TTT grad or just an idiot.
http://www.kruysman.com/
43 - google suggests correcting it to "redweld" - which is the right way to spell it. stop gettin triggy with it, alright.
43 = Hofstra grad.
Firms are hurting big time. Look out for your jobs!!
This is a bit cheap, but I think makes sense from a "This is a 'perk' if you are stuck here for work" angle, not a lame, greedy, fat # 42 'perk.'
And yes, clients do bitch about $30 meals. Like someone said, it's low hanging fruit. They HATE to think their servants ate a 'better meal' than they did.
ummmm....so WH thinks kids pulling down $200K/yr. are going out of their way to squeeze the odd $30 meal outta clients?
wtfhuh?
NYC to spam and saltines!
Less Seamless Web is probably a good idea. It is the leading cause of cottage cheese ass for female associates.
53 - you obviously don't work for a big law firm or one that hands out free dinners.
43 here - Redweld doesnt even make any sense. The folder is red colored, and holds paper like it were a well. Like an inkwell, for example.
I dont know what this Kruysman Law Firm is doing, but they mispelled the name of their file folders all over their website.
Redwell. Its definitively Redwell.
55 - agreed. Female associates should have entirely different meal perks; fruit, salad, sushi, etc. We need our lawyer-barbies looking nice and tight.
43, you stupid fuck. it's a redweld. it's a brand name.
'redwell' is on fucking urban dictionary because assfucks like yourself don't have a fucking clue. eat a ginormous dick, fuckface.
43/57, you are an idiot. Redweld is the name of the company that originally produced "Redwelds." It's a brand name, like "Bandaid" or "Kleenex" that we use for knockoff products as well. It doesn't have to "make sense."
43/57, you are an idiot. Redweld is the name of the company that originally produced "Redwelds." It's a brand name, like "Bandaid" or "Kleenex" that we use for knockoff products as well. It doesn't have to "make sense."
43/57, you are an idiot. Redweld is the name of the company that originally produced "Redwelds." It's a brand name, like "Bandaid" or "Kleenex" that we use for knockoff products as well. It doesn't have to "make sense."
55 - agreed. Female associates should have entirely different meal perks; fruit, salad, sushi, etc. We need our lawyer-barbies looking nice and tight.
Redweld is a brand name. Krusyman makes and sells redwells, which they brand as Redwelds.
56 -
2 years. the dinners that were served were never any incentive for any reasonable person to change their schedules.
-53
57, you're being too smart by half. "Redweld" is simply a brand name, there's no logic to the name.
Redweld office products by Kruysman
32-00 Skillman Avenue
Long Island City, NY 11101
www.redweld.com
It may have once been "Redweld" by some coincidence, but red-well folders existed long before that company did. The proper spelling is red-well or redwell. Like Aspirin, the TM has become a common name.
43/57, additionally, if something is definitive, IT'S definitively whatever it is. Just wanted to dot the i on the epic fail.
Apparently reading comprehension is optional at this site. The memo says you must have "logged" 10.5 hours in order to be eligible for a firm-paid -- not client-paid -- meal at 8 pm. In other words:
A. If a client makes you stay past 8, you're eligible for a client-paid meal regardless of how many hours you bill.
B. If you're just an ordinary busy associate with multiple assignments, you need to have billed 10.5 hours before the firm pays.
Why is B unfair? Should you be able to get in late, read the paper work from 2-9 and get a paid meal?
Doesn't sound like anyone who deserves a meal wont get one. Stop whining.
Simply working late doesn't convert personal expenses for food and transportation into client costs. Clients were foolish to accept the practice, but firms are wise to eliminate it before clients catch on to all the other ways bills are inflated.
Why hasn't Elie posted the big bankruptcy news today? James Sprayregen just jumped ship from GS and is rejoining the Kirkland restructuring group. That news is HUGE.
He also didn't cover the smaller K&E story - associates no longer have a limited number of vacation days!
Clients care because such expenses can sound bad. Imagine being the in-house counsel, in a meeting with someone (especially a non-lawyer, but it doesn't really matter) to whom you have to justify the bills, and you hear "And we paid $800 last month for meals for attorneys --- and sometimes they only billed 4.0 hours to our case that day!!!" It's stupid, but it matters because it just sounds bad.
I think it is about being in the office for 10.5 hours, not billing 10.5 hours. So show up by 9:30am if you want a meal at 8pm.
And the $30 cap should not be lowered. Seamless Web is expensive, especially if you are trying to eat healthy.
Maybe if there is not an urgent need for you to be working on a specific matter at 8pm the client should not be billed for the meal. But seriously, who can bill 2100+ hours a year and leave every night at 8pm? I thought the point of this work was to encourage associates to work longer days and bill more. In that case, bill the firm for every meal.
5 - so you would be OK with your managing partner grabbing your wallet and taking $1? Hey, they pay you over $160K a year, why the hell are you getting your panties in a wad about a lousy dollar when you spend more than that on your morning latte? In other words, 70 is right. It's not OK to charge the client unfairly for little amounts just because you bill them for a lot.
And the people insisting that just about nobody abuses the paid meals are either a) really naive or b) the ones ripping off the firm/client themselves. I've worked at BigLaw firm that had to crack down on late meals precisely because its well-paid IP associates were showing up at 8 for dinner and then going home right after, or spending right up to the limit so they could buy extra food for lunch tomorrow, etc. on the firm/client's dime.
seems pretty clear to me: you're in the office past 8 and you eat dinner, there are three options: (a) bill to client [prerequisite: pressing client need); (b) bill the firm [prerequisite: 10.5 hours billed, may be acceptable in other circumstances, but exercise discretion]; (c) pay for your own meal. looks like (c) would only apply if there's no colorable reason to bill the client or the firm. maybe not so unreasonable after all.
I admit that I routinely order extra bottles of water and soda to drink at times other than 8pm+ Shoot me!
Whether it's stupid or not to pay for the meal, as far as I can tell WilmerHale is no longer giving market "perks" in NY. Rather than admitting that fact, they are making up rules to avoid paying for overtime meals. And they have to make up rules and excuses, because they are having a (relatively) good year despite the economy.
And, Elie is right, WH's NYO management DOES treat associates like little children. The current and former offices managers (who are non-lawyers) are the worst offenders.
while i understand management's argument, it's pretty ghetto of them to even raise this issue with its associates.
if partners are so unnerved by late night meals they should pay for it out of the firm's tab and not bill it to the client. then, they should target individuals who abuse said policy and speak to them about their concerns as oppose to sending a firm-wide "we're penny pinching douchebags" memo.
f*** big law.
I will bill all $30 to the client or firm at precisely 8pm regardless. I work my ass off and if I feel like ordering enough food so that there are leftovers for the next day, then so be it. This is ridiculous. You can't slash our bonuses in half and then begin dismantling the basic perks...all while PPP is supposedly hovering around last year's level. Blow me.
got my SECOND ding from a firm. :(
*thinking that i really ought to shoot myself now. thoughts?*
-nervous T-10 1L
email job leads to nervoust101l@yahoo.com
it's red well. look it up
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=red%20well
urban dictionary is never wrong.
New York to $1.90! (aka The Dollar Menu)
This sentence should be written with the proper citation, "Contrary to popular belief, associates as a rule are not spoiled brats. But see Post from 12:37, Associate Bonus Watch: Davis Polk & Wardwell Joins Cravath/Simpson in Race to the Bottom
What about the weekends? Are there policies about getting meal or cars if you come to the office then? I am asking generally about NYC perks not WH specifically.
good post. your jokes often hit home even when the grammar leaves something to be desired.
"Just because a lawyer chose to work late does not mean that a client should have to pay for his or her food." -- do people really "choose" to work late? I'd rather be out with friends or at the gym if it was a "choice."
"Contrary to popular belief, associates as a rule are not spoiled "
Then why do you write pandering posts with cute little phrases like skadden-mart and half-skadden discussing the sheer horror of egregiously low bonuses in the middle of a total economic meltdown/clusterf-k in order to curry favor with a bunch of anonymous internet commenters?
85 - weekend rules are different. There generally isn't a specific time requirement (e.g., 8pm), just a minimal hours requirement. At my firm (V50, DC), it's 4.5 hours of work on a weekend and you are entitled to meal / car home.
80, do you also whine that your firm makes you buy your own lunch if you work through noon? You get paid to work your ass off. It's hilarious how many associates like you think that $160K is something you deserve for being very special people, instead of something you have to earn.
The Interwebs are our friend people:
http://www.kruysman.com/
Suck it Urban Dictionary!
5,7, and 11 - when reviewing legal bills as a client it's much easier to say "cut the meals, cut the cars, cut the online research" when you're looking to cut costs than it is to look at a bill and realize that 2.5 hours and the $1000 spent on "tel conf. re: doc revision" actually encompasses the labor of a clueless 2nd year drone sitting on a meaningless conference call on mute while cruising facebook and IM'ing his/her friends.
Noone in Bgilaw credibly can deny that meal policies are abused. I know a number of associates who pick up their meal and head straight for the door, order up to the limit to get enough food to bring home to the spouse/girlfriend/boyfriend, or order up to the limit simply out of a sense of grievance with the firm or client. This doesn't mean that every use of the meal policy is an abuse, but abuse is rampant. The bottom line is that charging a meal to a client when the attorney is not actually working late on that client's matter is theft from the client.
This system is just plain impractical and stupid.
I frequently bill say 5 hours to A and 5 hours to B. So I charge the meal to A and the car to B. Sometimes I bill both to A on Monday and both to B on Tuesday.
But according to the idiot Wilmer apologists, this doesn't warrant a meal charged to a client for some reason. Apparently clients get mad at seeing you bill a meal when you only worked 5 hours one day, ignoring how legal work gets done in the real world.
92 - actually, when I'm sitting in on a conference call, I prefer to read the WSJ online (as opposed to IM'ing friends).
-2nd year lit associate at V10
I can understand WH's concern here -- clients will fork over hundreds of thousands (or more) for projects but bitch about about $400 in accumulated meal bill-through's. So meal billing is an optical problem, not a real money problem.
The solution is to charge all such meals back to the firm. Oh and the second WH memo point about people "choosing" to stay late to clear out backed up work is specious -- usually people do that because there is a pressing need to clear out all that backed up work that accumulated because an associate was going ballz-out on another "pressing need" project. Associates are rarely at the office past 8pm by choice -- it is virtually always because of some pressing need.
I understand the unfairness when one spend 6 hours working from 6pm -12 midnight on 4 different matters -- to whom do you bill your meal? All 4 in equal portions? All 4 in relative portions compared to time spent? Pick one and run with it?
The firm needs to either bill the meals through to the clients or suck up the expense themselves. But encouraging associates not to bill for the meal is penny pinching.
96 - so what should you do in that situation? Do you pick 1 client and bill the entire meal? Can you even split the cost through Seamless web?
Clients HATE getting billed for associate meals. If you put down 5 hours to a matter and then order a dinner for $38, the client wonders what other firm client should be paying the freight. And this happens with NY lawyers routinely, but not with lawyers from other firm offices. Most Fortune 100 companies have lawyers that are on strict per diems themselves, so they hate it when they see some 3d year corporate associate abusing the system. I routinely write these meals off rather than have the debate with the client, which is unwinnable.
14/15 here. WAY TO GO ALL!!!!
My thanks!
I always felt the firm or client should pick up the meal tab at 8pm or later because if I wasn't at work I'd either be paying to eat a meal I want to eat out at a restaurant with friends or I'd be making myself something cheap and healthy at home. Why should I pay for a meal I don't want and is more exensive than what I would spend for a meal at home but have to eat because I am working late in the office for the firm/client?
http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=Redweld
It's a perk. It's a perk that gets abused. Anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves. Abused perks get cracked down on during tough times.
I like to order dinner (at the full $30) and bring it home. Then I cook myself something cheap and save the meal for the next day. Saves me a decent amount of cash. I hope this new policy doesn't affect me.
The debate isn't unwinnable. You say: while on that day the associate billed you 5 hours and the cost of the meal, on other days the associate billed you 5 hours but billed another client the cost of the meal Over the course of the matter, it evens out. I can't write off every meal on a day where the associate didn't strictly bill 10 hours to you because our associates are staffed on multiple matters and rarely bill to only 1 matter each day.
I like adderall.
The justification for getting reimbursed for "overtime meals" is not a "perk." It's because if you are forced to stay past 8pm due to client work, by the time you get home, probably at least 9:30 if you don't live in the city, you're so beat that you're forced to buy an outside dinner rather than make something yourself. It would be ridiculous if you had to get home at 9:30 and still had to cook yourself dinner, which costs a LOT less than buying something from outside.
To my mind that is the economic justification. It's not an entitlement but a small realization of efforts you've put in for a client on a given night and the impact it has had on your quality of life.
106, it's a perk. Lots of people whose firms don't (or no longer) have this perk bring a packed dinner from home, order out or wait till they get home to cook something. Yes, it's a nice thing for the firm (not the client) to provide meals, or pay for meals, if you're forced to work late, but it's a perk, not an entitlement. And it is heavily abused, as you can see from comments in this thread.
If you want to be pissed about this perk going away, be pissed at people like 80 and 103. When greedy people abuse a perk, everybody loses it.
Wow! These are the only comments where the law firm in question is not referred to as TTT
Is this a first for ATL?
108: Quite simply because it isn't
Food ordered through Seamless Web gives me diarrhea.
Here at Jones Day NYC, we are supposed to eat in the Flick cafeteria with a $14 limit. TRULY some nasty shit served there for dinner. I like it here otherwise, but the dinner situation can be demoralizing.
WH should worry about bonus announcements and not cutting back on meals. If they are going to eliminate paying for meals, these cheap fuckers better pay 2x Skadden!!
Can't a firm just warn the people who are abusing the system rather than impose rules like this on everyone? How hard is it for accounting to track attorneys whose food bills keep getting written off?
104. It is unwinnable because while you may successfully defend the $38 on the invoice in question, you damage your relationship with the client, who feels nickel-and-dimed. You have obviously never had to discuss a bill with a client if you don't understand what I mean.
Clients know when a meal is legitimate and when it is not. If you are working with good reason late night on a deal, or a case, they will know that is the case and will not begrudge you dinner. Nor will the supervising partner.
93 -- what is the difference between eating food at your desk versus ordering food at 8:00 and picking it up at 9:00 on your way out (taking no time to eat food and getting all your work outta the way). who cares if you eat it at your desk or take it home?
Maybe working at Wilmer Hale after 8pm is rare. Any WH folks care to chime in and confirm?
Quinn caps meals at $18 because it's a lucky number.
114, no i'm not a partner so i don't talk to clients about bills, but from the bills and funds flow memos i have seen come across our bills are usually rounded numbers like $1.5 million "for services rendered" so i can't imagine there is much in the way of the nickel and dime conversation. i would guess movement comes in the form of $100,000 chunks.
i guess if you have clients that actually scrutinize bills for meals that represent 0.001% of the total bill then maybe you might as well eat it without argument, but if became a common occurence i would probably try to devise a pro-rate sharing calculation so clients pay their fair share based on the number of meals billed and the percent of an associate's time devoted to the matter.
114, no i'm not a partner so i don't talk to clients about bills, but from the bills and funds flow memos i have seen come across our bills are usually rounded numbers like $1.5 million "for services rendered" so i can't imagine there is much in the way of the nickel and dime conversation. i would guess movement comes in the form of $100,000 chunks.
i guess if you have clients that actually scrutinize bills for meals that represent 0.001% of the total bill then maybe you might as well eat it without argument, but if became a common occurence i would probably try to devise a pro-rate sharing calculation so clients pay their fair share based on the number of meals billed and the percent of an associate's time devoted to the matter.
There is a woman at my firm who would dawdle during the day then order a big dinner around 7:00 and bring home half or most of it to her husband who didn't work. Abuser! But most people I know don't abuse.
#14 is my hero... here's a toast to a real UPenn State grad!
There is a woman at my firm who would dawdle during the day then order a big dinner around 7:00 and bring home half or most of it to her husband who didn't work. Everyone knows her as the firm's biggest slacker. Abuser! But most people I know don't abuse.
In Bratislava we call them "redwells," but everyone knows it's "redweld."
Over at Squire Sanders there are two attorney that always stay late working, on non-urgent items so they can do their free meal. And they like to push it to the maximum each and every time. Go figure. They do love to charge the clients anything and everything possible.
Anyone care to explain why 2nd year associates with no statistical hope of making partner (or of even sticking around to be senior associates) should be remotely interested in whether the client is happy over a $30 meal?
74 seems to have a grudge against IP associates.
42, I think the policy at many firms--mine included--is "bill a certain number of hours per day, and a meal is compensated." You can't roll in at noon, stay until 9, and score a free dinner. Nor can you get to work in the morning, waste your time online shopping or checking ATL (hi!) and then frantically do 6 hours of work in the afternoon/evening and collect a free meal. You can, however, get to work at 9, work hard, continue to work hard, order dinner (which with a delivery fee and tip gets near $30 pretty easily), continue to work, eat at your desk, work some more, and then have that meal paid for. Sometimes the dinner gets billed through to the client; sometimes the partners may write it off as a reasonable expense incurred as a result of keeping associates in the office for 10+ billable hour days (keep in mind that to bill 10 hours, you may have been in the office for ~12).
125 makes a good point.
126, I'm sure that plenty of non-IP firms have equally spoiled associates with an overblown sense of entitlement. I have no information that IP attorneys are more likely than their non-IP colleagues to whine and stomp their little feet whenever they're prevented from billing things to the client.
guys in my high school used to get the school district to pay for their lunches and then they'd sell them to other students at half price to make a nice profit. it was no big deal.
kobe how my azz taste????
We are in a RECESSION and HUNDREDS of attorneys--- soon to be THOUSANDS --- are being LAID OFF and most will not be rehired anytime soon. If people think that firms will continue to allow PERKS to be ABUSED, they are crazy.
132 - not "THOUSANDS." Firms do not want a repeat of the early 90s and post-2001 recession where the work picked up and they were severely understaffed. Firms will be looking to maintain headcount...expect cuts here and there but this mass exodus of biglaw attorneys is a false assumption.
FLIK sucks. Someone at my firm got food poisoning so bad, they called 911 and took her to a hospital.
$30 limit is stupid for NYC. $40 is more reasonable --need enough to cover tax and tip.
10.5 hours for one client only is stupid for reasons previously stated.
I am so glad I don't work for Beantown lawyers. Must be that frugal New England mentality.
Also really bad memo on WH's part. Think about it. If things are soooo bad, they need to penny-pinch $30 meals, then I would have to wonder as a client if they will be around much longer. If they're not, I'd take the work that's done and hand it off to lawyers that have staying power. Quick! Before the ship sinks!
134, the imaginary clients you wish existed might panic at the thought that they are not being soaked for junior associates' meals and take all their business to firms that put perks first. Real-life clients, sorry to inform you, do not think that way.
On an annual basis, the free meals are a considerable gain in untaxed income--plus a bright spot in my otherwise dreary evenings. I would be very sad to see them go.
This is an interesting and problematic issue. I think the key problems have already been stated:
1. If I bill 6 hours to Client A (9am-3pm) and 6 hours to Client B (3pm-9pm), who should I bill my dinner to?
2. More often than not, an associate working late but billing a total of 5-6 hours does so because they got a call from the client/partner with something urgent at 4 or 5pm. Do you REALLY think associates with work at 10am will deliberately chat, surf the web and shop till 4pm, then start work at 4pm, finish by 9pm, JUST to get a $30 dinner?
Thousands is accurate. Most are stealth, and not reported on ATL or anywhere else for that matter. Add in the few collapsed firms, and we are well into 4 figures. And that's not counting the reduction in hiring, which is where the real hit to the labor market is coming from. In an aggregate sense, this is very much equivalent to a layoff.
Even so, this is a smaller percentage employment reduction that similarly situated industries (high-end service: consulting, finance etc.) Face it, times are tough all around.
111 - Here in Cleveland, we're jealous of the NY cafeteria. We sort of look forward to it when we go there for closings. Cleveland's isn't that bad (and is actually a really nice perk, given the shitty location of our office), but NY's is like a palace.
This post is hard to describe as anything other than dumbassery. The main point of the memo is that CLIENTS should not be billed for dinners that have nothing to do with that client's needs. That is a perfectly appropriate thing to say. The memo goes on to say associates who work late can charge the meal to the firm, but be reasonable about it.
Whats the problem? Do associates somehow have an interest not only in getting their meals paid for, but in having clients pay for it instead of the firm?
This site is terrible under its new management. Bring back Lat.
Oh, and "shitty location" does not mean Cleveland (hahaha...), it means being 4 blocks away from any restaurants other than the Galleria food court.
shutup 139/141 recruiter
142 - is that you, Ganske?
139 - WHat would be better is if they didn't have the cafeteria at all, so then there would be no obligation to use it, or at lesat we would not be held to a $14 limit that assumes we use it.
I was at another firm with no cafeteria, so we just used Seamlessweb at night and it was way better.
To be fair, FLIK does do breakfast quite well. But thats just easier.
It's not the amount, but the principle; and on principle, I agree with not charging clients generally for meals.
Law firms that require high billable hour targets = associates have to stay late, should foot the bill (and likewise if staff have to stay overtime). Or not, and lawyers accepting high-paying jobs there can and should be able to deal with the situation... A client should only pay for a meal if the situation (e.g. a TRO) requires extended hours or maybe if the associate has been working the whole day on one file. Not because the lawyer has worked on a bunch of files throughout the day and happens to be working on a particular matter at night, and not because a partner insists on a quick turnaround not required for legal or client needs, for his or her own reasons.
Just heard that the firm will agree to provide meals for all associates working late, but only if they order PEANUTS and CHEESE!
PEANUTS and CHEESE, people! Bring it! Bring that shit!
This is more pathetic than Cravath's bonuses. Seriously.
Anyone of you guys advocating for the Gut a client that ever was asked to pay for meals, when the att'y billed you for 3 hours that day, 2 of which were for "misc".? Thought so. Why are attorneys so food obsessed. At 30!!!! I am sure that half of them buy hot dogs and pizza on weekends when they don't work.
136 - It is not "untaxed income" because meals provided by the employer on the business premises of the employer are not considered income. ยง119 The assumption is that it is for the employer's benefit for you not to to leave the office.
WH NY is a good place to work but this policy is just plain stupid. If you want to order dinner before 630 you have to get in by 8 and bill 10.5 hours before then in order to bill it to the client? This is ridiculous, if you know you have to work until 10 to get something to a client and you want to eat at 545 you the hell cares how many hours you billed earlier that day? Clients generally always want things ASAP and so do partners. Plus, no one ever tells you to stay late, you stay late b/c you have to bill 2000 hours to get a bonus and you have a shitload of work to do.
WH is also generally pretty busy these days compared to many firms. The firm handled this poorly. They should have just gone directly to the people abusing the current system and dealt with them. Instead, they have alienated many attorneys who are generally content at the firm.
Plus, the firm provides free dinner to all attorneys working past 7 in their Boston office. Mind you, this is firm cafeteria food, but the firm does not directly pass on any of this cost to clients. So why do Boston associates get free meals subsidized by partners and NY associates get a lecture?
To those who say why should a client pay for dinner if a lawyer bills 4 hours in a day? Well maybe the client asked for something at 5 PM. Or maybe the associate billed 4 hours throughout the day while doing 6 hours of work for another client and another 2 hours for a third client. Reasonable associates who bill 4 hours to one client in a day and 6 to another should just be told to use their discretion and bill one client for dinner and the other for the car/cab ride home. The problem is that people abuse this discretion and everyone gets screwed.
150: WH NY associate who is sad that daddy yelled at him for stealing food from daddy's bossmann.
The amount of money these assclowns will save is so marginal -- I can't believe they couldn't find another way to save money without pissing off associates. Bitches.
Remember when I used to eat sardines for dinner
who the fuck cares
Clients are taking this billable model too literally.
You are being charged a large fee that approximates the amount of time spent on the matter. It is nowhere near as precise as the decimal place indicates.
Most associates do their time once a week--many gaps are filled by checking your outbox and guessing.
For every $30 meal you save, you are losing the ".3's" I add to my time entries to make them look more "precise."
bunch of cheap ass bitches. . .
118 - it is obvious you have never actually seen a client bill, just the summary sheet. Clients get a whole lot more than that, and they often scrutinize. It's all part of doing business.
155 - Did your firm ever give you a copy of the NY Code of Professional Conduct? I'm guessing you need a refresher course.
This meal perk is by far the most abused perk at Biglaw. Think about it. If you stay until 8, eat on the firm, it saves more money for booze when you meet your friends out. Because you're a lawyer, you don't have any friends who aren't lawyers, so none of them leave before 8 and before they've had their free dinner, so nobody goes out before 9 or 10 anyway. Of course, by the time you're a senior associate, you're so fat from eating Chinese takeout from Seamless Web that you spend dinner time in the gym and eat a handful of peanuts and a granola bar in the mistaken belief that you'll get that youthful figure back. Either that, or you pull the half-eaten chicken burrito you got at Chipotle for lunch out of the mini fridge tucked under your desk and wash it down with the beer you keep stashed under there to take the edge off the fact that you haven't tucked your kid into bed in 2 years and your wife is now making plans with some guy she met on Craigslist.
Good times.
WH to Dollar Menu
This perk is completely abused. We do not have a weekend time requirement here for meals or transportation - for attorneys. Secretaries have to actually work through lunch (despite the fact that they are already doing OT) on weekends to get a firm paid lunch. As for attorneys, I have had associates come in for an hour or 2 at the most, order lunch and bill for it, and take a cab home. As for ordering dinner here at night I have another attorney who constantly stayed just long enough to order, ordered for both himself and his wife, and then took the food home. The policy is definitely abused.
Seriously, you people are like greedy, petulant children, complaining about every little thing. You make huge salaries, huge bonuses (even with them being cut), the majority of you seem to have this sense of entitlement and superiority over everyone else. And I would bet the majority of you never wanted for anything in your lives. You need to grow up and become real adults.
@ 157, you need a reality check if you think time isn't padded ESPECIALLY IN THIS ECONOMY
"Maybe the client asked for something at 5" so in addition to the hourly rate they should also pay for dinner?
I have seen bills which include charges for danish and coffee and "war room set up". The days of paying bills like that are done.
Let me get this straight, the associate was just sitting around not billing until 4? And then when she finally gets an assignment thinks it should dinner also?
Did not read all 162 posts, but the real point is whether the client should pay, not whether the associate is entitled to a free meal. The firm should pay if there is any entitlement.
Did not read all 162 posts, but the real point is whether the client should pay, not whether the associate is entitled to a free meal. The firm should pay if there is any entitlement.
Did not read all 162 posts, but the real point is whether the client should pay, not whether the associate is entitled to a free meal. The firm should pay if there is any entitlement.
159: On weekends, all bets are off. You require me to destroy my two days off a week (after five very, very long days), you'd better believe I'm not paying for my lunch.
159, I've known plenty of people who overuse the policy and it's not out of a sense of entitlement and they're not trust fund babies; it's out of a lack of loyalty to the firm/caring about being cost-effective for someone else's client. If you're going to make people give up their twenties and thirties to work long hours and weekends and then "reward" them by not making them partner and booting them out of the firm, you're not giving them any good reason not to eat dinner on someone else's dime during those nights. Why should a junior associate care about not spending $25 of the client's money when they're giving up an evening they could be spending with friends or family?
159 - amen.
Buy your own food, you big babies.
159 - amen.
Buy your own food, you big babies.
The salary and bonus is payment for giving up your 20s and 30s. Don't lose sight of that fact. Spring for your own meal, and buy dinner for the due in the next office also, you cheap bastards.
If I wasn't working late in the office for a partner (I mean let's be real, "clients" needs aren't dictating the schedule to junior and midlevel associates, it's the partners), I would be making myself something to eat that was a lot cheaper and healthier; why should I have to pay more for dinner to stay in the office because a partner suddenly remembered that he "needed" something by 9am the next day?
171 the answer is 160 plus bonus starting salary. If you want a work/life bonuse there are many many firms with more interesting work and a much better work/life balance.
You think partners making a million dollars aren't billing meals with alcohol and first class tickets and fancy hotels to clients? Why should the associate who is working late and weekends for that partner/client not get fed? Do you see the partners making 5 times associate salaries bringing their dinner into the office? Are they cheap bastards too or just the associates?
Welcome to real life. It is good to be the king/partner. Now get ready, because in about an hour I am going to spring a research quesion on you. I won't be here when you finish because I am taking a client out for dinner.
#159 is either Wilmer management or someone jealous that they didnt make it through law school.
#30 is awesome and said it well with "Memo to Wilmer Hale associates: the Firm currently wastes tens of dollars per year on unnecessary pencil lead expenses. Please do not click out new lead for your mechanical pencils, unless the pencil lead already protruding from your pencil is undeniably too short to write with. But even there, we ask that people use their judgment and be fiscally responsible."
159 is exactly why everyone hates legal secretaries and non-lawyer management. legal secretaries at the firm i worked for got paid ridiculous salaries, got all the perks of ordering food and cabs and then left at 4:59. not to mention the fact that they bitch and complain about their associates to everyone who will listen. want to cost costs? stop paying starting salaries half that of associates to people with even less loyalty to the firm than first year associates.
i never would have gone to law school had i not been actually interested in the law and just wanted the cushy life management and legal secretaries lead at biglaw firms.
i'm very disappointed that WHNY would actually go to these lengths to crap all over associate morale in an already depressing time. i've seen many responsible associates work late, order food below the max and eat at their desks who definitely would have preferred being at home recouping from dealing with annoying partners who already left for the day. it's rare that i saw anyone "abuse" the policy but if they are - find them and deal with them.
personally, i can't imagine it's going to make for good office culture in NY having first or second years eating vending machine food b/c they're too scared to order food when they're stuck at the office late. if anything, this gives them a great excuse to leave before 8 every single day.
160 (aka 155): It's not that I am not aware that bills are being padded in this economy. Hell, unscrupulous and unethical lawyers such as yourself regularly do it. Of course just because you do it and don't think you're going to get caught doesn't mean it isn't 1) unethical as hell, 2) stealing on behalf of a firm who probably isn't going to pay you a bonus anyway, and if you're paid a bonus based on hours, then you're stealing, and 3) that some partner who is smarter than you and adept at drafting bills isn't going to figure out what you're doing and cut your time or have you fired.
I'm hoping it is the latter. We need fewer lawyers like you in the profession.
177 - your not fooling anyone
Boy, the biglaw memories. Why did I do that again?
I remember being annoyed when I moved from a top 20 New York firm to a top Philadelphia firm that there was no SeamlessWeb allowance or cab fare home policy.
Then I realized that it was because nobody was ever in the office after 8:00 except for during a trial.
And all the spoiled babies go waa waa. Why should the client pay for your food? It's part of being a grown-up (you'll find out what that is one day). You go to the deli, grad a sandwich, and get back to work. Or finish the job, leave, and then worry about fine dining. And pay for it yourself.
Redweld - it's a registered trademark for that expanding folder we all love so much. You can call it what you want. Like Xerox or Kleenex, Redweld is a trademark name that is used to define a wide category of folders- even redwells!