First!

I HATE YOU ALL

Proskauerttt Rose

The fact that Proskauer had numerous people who failed the bar speaks volumes about the firm...VOLUMES!!!!!

Can someone please take this opportunity to re-post from last week's Proskauer comment section the epic flame on Elie?

"first year associates where included"

MysTTTal, you are a miserable failure

you're shaking my confidence, baby

at least they're sort of basing it on performance....

No law students sitting on more than one offer should ever go to Proskauer for the next ten years. This is just wrong.

There are partners at Proskauer who didn't pass on their first try.

Uh. If you treated your summer associate job like a 12 week paid vacation, that is your fault. If you got a bad review, that is your fault.

That's a great way to determine who to dismiss - who was working hard for the firm when they didn't "have" to v. who was goofing off on the firm's dime? Exactly what is unfair?

Elie, you are a fucking idiot. It's the "historical attrition" rate, not an "historic attrition" rate. The firm is saying they need to lay off associates because of a "reduction in the historical attrition"--that is, more first years are staying longer than they usually do--not because of a catastrophic spate of quitting by first years; an "historic attrition."

Lat, honest to God, when are you going to get rid of this guy? Elie is an argument against affirmative action unto himself. No wonder he couldn't hack it in law practice and now has to write for a gossip blog.

FROM THE DECEMBER 4TH PROSKAUER POST:

Elie, I am in disbelief; SHOCKED that not only have you not begged Lat to remove that previous Proskauer post you made in September, but that you have the chrome-plated balls to actually cite to it as some sort of success in foreshadowing. If I were you, I would be praying to the powers that be each and every day that it would be filed away deep within the bowels of the internet equivalent of some Raiders of the Lost Ark-style government warehouse never again to see the light of day. That was the single most atrocious post I have read on any blog, ever; the way you got open-hand slapped by the immutable principles of logic (not to mention every commenter) will go down in blog lore as a failure of the most epic variety. Let's recap that September "scoop" of which you seem so proud, shall we?

Proskauer sends out a boilerplate offer letter to its prospective summer class with the SAME LANGUAGE THAT NEARLY EVERY OTHER FIRM HAS INCLUDED IN EVERY V50 SUMMER OFFER LETTER IN THE PAST 5 YEARS, saying that their summer salary "will be no less than $x". To everyone, including the slow-witted barista with a lazy eye who serves my coffee, it was obvious that Proskauer (and every other firm that uses that same boilerplate language) was just setting a compensation floor so that they could raise summer salaries to match peer firms if the those peer firms for some reason raised salaries between that time and the start of summer. But wait!! Elie has a Eureka moment as he nearly chokes on his morning power shake of maple syrup and goose fat: what if the words "no less than" are pregnant with meaning -> a secret language Proskauer Recruiting (which has been known to advise Al-Qaeda operatives in Pakistan on how to signal their internationally-placed sleeper cells via secretly-coded emails appearing to be no more than birthday e-cards) was quietly letting the market know that they planned on giving the crashing US economy a big gangrenous middle-finger by raising associate salaries to 190K!?? Now, Elie could have just cut his losses at this point, hit "publish" on that abomination of a deductive leap and called it a day, but no, he went on to...

(wait, wait, sorry give me a moment here: "paging Logic, Reason, & Common Sense...Logic, Reason, & Common Sense, if you're in the building, you may want to take a lap around the block before I continue so that the magnitude of your simultaneous aneurysms doesn't rip a hole in the fabric of space." OK, let's go on.)

So Elie went on to surmise that by setting a floor for their summer compensation, they must be looking to make cuts ELSEWHERE! That's right, Elie took the following two ingredients: (i) Proskauer set a standard salary floor in their summer offer letter, and (ii) gosh darnit economic times are tough, and baked them into a OMG-Layoffs-is-Coming-What-Is-I-Gonna-Do clusterf$@*$-meringue pie, which he presumably then devoured.

And now, wow: you have the partially-descended-testicular fortitude to link to the aforementioned post of shame..."Are you there God? It's me, Elie's undeserved sense of smug self-satisfaction. I just want you to know that today was a banner day."

Severance perk: Reduced-rate mustache rides in the Proskauer lobby at 6:30.

16th!!!

If you want fair, work for the federal government. Otherwise, you are an employee-at-will, and your firm can fire you for any reason. The fact that the economy turned and they don't need as many first-year associates as they thought they would 12 months ago is MORE reason than they need to fire you.

Some people would say that paying a 25 year old with no experience $160,000 plus bonus is not fair. But once again, fairness isn't a factor here. Firms pay what they have to to recruit talent, and cut heads when the money stops rolling in.

16thly!

these pretzels are making me 19thirsty

Those first years are completely screwed. 100-150k in loans, no income for the foreseeable future. Nice, Proskauer. Real nice.

It should not be surprising that summer associate reviews can be used a year later to evaluate a candidate. I therefore have no sympathy. A summer associate does not get a free pass and a free offer. In fact, the candidate should not have even received a full offer in the first place, but that is a separate issue.

Summers who think they can goof off and be taken out to lunch everyday and do nothing for a windfall of $3,000+ a week ought to reassess their lack of work ethic. I worked like a dog as a summer in V60+, got no fancy meals, and worked holidays. I earned my offer. That's the way it should be. Period.

14 = too long.

Can someone please paraphrase 14's comment in three sentences or less?

14 = nerdy, ineffectual version of the Unabomber

Cutting people based on summer reviews = interesting. It sounds like Proskauer decided to cut people, and they looked at whatever information they had.

I guess layoff vs. firing isn't a pure either-or thing. As some have noted, unless your firm is Heller or Thelen or it cuts loose an entire practice group, not *everyone* gets laid off, and they do their selection *somehow,* which is one more reason why it sucks to get asked to leave.

Proskauer Rose is worse than a PUSSY FART.

21 - lol @ V60. Enjoy the unemployment line in the spring when your firm folds.

14 - find something else to do. I'm worried about you.

I hate it when people say "period" to emphasize a point. Ellipsis....

14 = Capt. Mustache Ride

14 IS A LOSER---FIND SOMETHING ELSE TO DO THAN PICK ON ELIE!

"The other big criteria...turns out to be..."

CRITERION is the SINGULAR
CRITERIA is plural

Good you're writing for ATL and not submitting briefs to SCOTUS.

Having expectorated, I now address the substance of the post. Summer associate reviews are one excellent criterion for dismissal. It's work you produced during a period when you had fewer pressures, more clearly defined and finite assignments and a real opportunity to show the firm not just your abilities but your ambition and work ethic. i treated my SA summer like an extended on-site job interview from beginning to end and now have one more reason not to regret that approach.

ROD PAMPERS would never stand for this nonsense.

21 -- that makes no sense. If a first-year got a bad review as a summer associate, he/she should not have been hired. If the firm hired someone based on his/her summer reviews, firing him/her a year a later for that same review is clearly pretextual.

I'm gonna get me some CWT '05 NY female associate - I hear they are HORNY and PORNY.

...WERE included in the 35...

I knew it. Mispellioticis is not a curable disease. Welcome back Elie.

The "historic attrition rate" among first years is the attrition among second and third years. These people usually leave in droves, leaving the door open for fitst years. If they don't leave, the first years become redundant.

The summer reviews are pretty weak sauce, but you can always tell who the stars are in a recruiting class. Some people might be slow starters, but you can always pick the really good ones. Keep them. Everyone else can leave.

Attrition at my firm is usually 20-something. This year its 4. 4 freaking percent. Cuts are coming.

Question mark.

Elie - Less information can be a good thing at times!

- I'm just saying

I interviewed with Proskauer for a lateral. Declined to proceed with them. But for one lawyer I met, the rest were complete tools. Not surprised by the actions of this wanna be NY power player.

FROM COMMENT 14 OF THIS POST:

FROM DECEMBER 4TH PROSKAUER POST:

Elie, I am in disbelief; SHOCKED that not only have you not begged Lat to remove that previous Proskauer post you made in September, but that you have the chrome-plated balls to actually cite to it as some sort of success in foreshadowing. If I were you, I would be praying to the powers that be each and every day that it would be filed away deep within the bowels of the internet equivalent of some Raiders of the Lost Ark-style government warehouse never again to see the light of day. That was the single most atrocious post I have read on any blog, ever; the way you got open-hand slapped by the immutable principles of logic (not to mention every commenter) will go down in blog lore as a failure of the most epic variety. Let's recap that September "scoop" of which you seem so proud, shall we?

Proskauer sends out a boilerplate offer letter to its prospective summer class with the SAME LANGUAGE THAT NEARLY EVERY OTHER FIRM HAS INCLUDED IN EVERY V50 SUMMER OFFER LETTER IN THE PAST 5 YEARS, saying that their summer salary "will be no less than $x". To everyone, including the slow-witted barista with a lazy eye who serves my coffee, it was obvious that Proskauer (and every other firm that uses that same boilerplate language) was just setting a compensation floor so that they could raise summer salaries to match peer firms if the those peer firms for some reason raised salaries between that time and the start of summer. But wait!! Elie has a Eureka moment as he nearly chokes on his morning power shake of maple syrup and goose fat: what if the words "no less than" are pregnant with meaning -> a secret language Proskauer Recruiting (which has been known to advise Al-Qaeda operatives in Pakistan on how to signal their internationally-placed sleeper cells via secretly-coded emails appearing to be no more than birthday e-cards) was quietly letting the market know that they planned on giving the crashing US economy a big gangrenous middle-finger by raising associate salaries to 190K!?? Now, Elie could have just cut his losses at this point, hit "publish" on that abomination of a deductive leap and called it a day, but no, he went on to...

(wait, wait, sorry give me a moment here: "paging Logic, Reason, & Common Sense...Logic, Reason, & Common Sense, if you're in the building, you may want to take a lap around the block before I continue so that the magnitude of your simultaneous aneurysms doesn't rip a hole in the fabric of space." OK, let's go on.)

So Elie went on to surmise that by setting a floor for their summer compensation, they must be looking to make cuts ELSEWHERE! That's right, Elie took the following two ingredients: (i) Proskauer set a standard salary floor in their summer offer letter, and (ii) gosh darnit economic times are tough, and baked them into a OMG-Layoffs-is-Coming-What-Is-I-Gonna-Do clusterf$@*$-meringue pie, which he presumably then devoured.

And now, wow: you have the partially-descended-testicular fortitude to link to the aforementioned post of shame..."Are you there God? It's me, Elie's undeserved sense of smug self-satisfaction. I just want you to know that today was a banner day."

21, glad I don't know you. Are you going to make your kid get a job when they are 5?

Somebody deleted my comments on the Lateral Link post and that makes me fursty.

28 = Elie

Smart move by Proskauer. It would have been horrible for their prestige if they had no offered those summers last year. Instead, they give them offers (probably cold, by the way), bring them to work for a couple of months, let them pick up some CLE credits, lay them off, and blame it on the economy. In the end, they can still say they give offers to most of the summers. Genius, actually.

This federal employee wonders why PR hired summers who were given bad reviews in the first instance?

Once again, Biglaw must die.

"But our sources indicate that a number of first-year associates where included in the 35 attorneys Proskauer laid off."
-"were," not "where"

"...but first-years that failed the bar were not in good shape."
-"who" not "that"

This is my first comment. I am fed up with stupid typos and poor grammar.

14: Protest too much much?

So... it's reasonable to hire someone as a SA with a 90% of being hired full time based on one year of law school grades but it's not reasonable to fire them for work performance? It makes much more sense to can folks who were shitty SAs then to hire folks full time based on 1L grades and peer pressure. I have no sympathy for folks who couldn't pass the bar the first time and/or couldn't produce decent work product during their summer associateship. More firms should be like Proskauer.

I'm gonna get me some CWT '05 NY female associate - I hear they are HORNY and PORNY.

32, the firm might hire a mediocre summer associate because they expect to at least keep him busy for a few years. But now they can't because the more senior and competent people are sticking around, and they can do the work more competently. So the mediocre guy gets fired.

There is nothing pretextual about this.

This federal employee wonders why PR hired summers who were given bad reviews in the first instance?

Once again, Biglaw must die.

Top firm like WILDMAN HARROLD never do this kinda shit! WILDMAN HARROLD To V5!

If Womble paid associates with sheep they would be SOOOO much better off.

Lamb Chop Perkins

I'm convinced Elie throws in one or two malapropisms and mispunctuations simply to keep the comment count up. Plus, a lot of the time, the persnickety grammar complaints are more entertaining than the substance of the post.

Does a recycled layoff/firing story prompt the reemergence of Count Layoffula?

Don't know if people have heard about this yet...

http://www.mlive.com/annarbornews/news/index.ssf/2008/12/university_of_michigan_profess_2.html

#32 -- pretextual? Does using lawyer words make you feel smart? In case you haven't gotten this far in kindergarten yet, "pretextual" is irrelevant in an employment at will context. Plus, everyone knows summer associates are hired even if they suck. Firms need someone to sh!t all over, and they know they must hire 100% of the summer class in order to stay strong in recruiting.

However, any summers who believe they can screw around all summer without consequence are sorely mistaken. It could take years of good work to turn around a bad first impression. By that time, it may be too late to matter.

"But our sources indicate that a number of first-year associates where included in the 35 attorneys Proskauer laid off."
-"were," not "where"

"...but first-years that failed the bar were not in good shape."
-"who" not "that"

This is my first comment. I am fed up with stupid typos and poor grammar.

Larry Lessig's going back to HLS.

I just saw Mr. Proskauer ask the copier guy about his "Mustache Rides- 5 cents" t-shirt.

Lat,
When is MysTTTal's 'performance-based' layoff going to occur?

When will the Union of Legal Workers step up and stop this injustice?

U.L.W Local 190

#56--It's a blog, not the NY Times. Get the stick out your ass.

Good for Proskaur. Good for any firm to lay off 26 year old prima-donnas who think the world owes them something and they are entitled to 160k plus bonus. Good for the firms. Fire away.

51 - Nancy F. Afrasiabi at that firm is smokin...figured I'd throw that out there.

62--and what were you when you graduated law school? Humble with vast world-wide experience having just finished law school for three years? This is how the system has been. Clearly the game has changed.

A partner at my firm told me he wouldn't be surprised if Proskauer had another round of firings early next year. Looks like they're in bad shape...

There are freeloaders and jerks in every biglaw firm, so I haven't felt so bad to see those people let go. But I do have sympathy for these first years, they never got a chance to really prove themselves, and they are going to have an impossible time trying to get into another biglaw firm.

13, while I agree that Elie needs to go, your infusion of AA into the matter is moronic. He won a blind-contest where readers voted, remember?

Another good reason why anyone who ever just coasts through life is never doing himself a favor in the long run.

I'm gonna get me some CWT '05 NY female associate - I hear they are HORNY and PORNY.

Dear Elie,

You can't, within the same forum, criticize firms for: (1) not admitting that firings were based solely on the economy; (2) blaming firings on "performance" when it is really just the economy/firm's fault; and (3) finding some (at least arguably) marginally predictive metrics for firing people WHILE admitting that it really is just the economy. It's like your brain resets like a goldfish after every time you post something. Moreover, even if you could claim all three of those things at the same time, at least have the respect to do so with grammar and spelling skills at least equivalent to those first year Proskauer attorney's that got fired. A standard by which this post, and an alarming number of your previous posts, have obviously not lived up to.
At the very least you should give Proskauer some credit for both being honest about the economy's role and finding some way to justify who they fired. Failing the bar or performing poorly as a summer associate is surely a better justification then any given by almost every other firm that has laid off associates (with the possible exception of firms who just said there was not enough work). While Proskauer is certainly on the decline (and has been since long before the credit crisis), and it's never good to hear about 1st year associate with bundles of debt being laid off. But at least pretend that you put some thought into what you write before it comes out in a garbled mess of typos and logical inconsistencies.
In closing, I have two requests:
(1) Run a story on the V20 Firms (or some other metric) that HAVE NOT conducted layoffs of more than a few attorneys. Try to find some common themes among those firms that is not shared by their more affected competitors. Based on your previous work this might be a little over your head - so maybe have Lat do it.
(2) This one is for Lat. The only layoff announcement that I think a very large proportion of this site's readers will welcome is a flashing siren announcing "Layoffs at ATL," with news that the current editor has been removed due his continued and proven incompetence both technically and strategically. I would not let Elie help my 7 year old son run a lemonade stand - and am utterly astonished as to how he can have the word "editor" attached in any way to his name.

I worked at a V50 as a Summer in 2007. The particular culture of the firm I summered at encouraged socializing and did not place particular emphasis on hard work as a summer. I worked hard anyway, and do not particularly fear my job security. Nevertheless, I think it would be quite disturbing if the firm retroactively decided to place great weight on Summer '07 performance reviews, when no such emphasis was placed when we were actually there.

I don't know if the culture at Proskauer was similar or not. If it was, shame on them.

63 - agreed!

21 = striving poor

Grammar and Punctuation Nazis & general psychos like 14 and his ild= transgender dwarf porn fetishists

MysTTTal= fat but improving

I was a 2008 summer associate at a V50 firm. I knew there was a good chance the economy would fall apart, and so I worked my fucking ass off. Literally, I had first years telling me to "go home", and "enjoy my summer". But my gut told me things would get ugly and so I volunteered for (what I perceived to be) the important mandates, and made damn sure that my work product was acceptable.

I feel no sympathy for summers who slack off. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the free lunches and alcohol as much as anyone else, but when I was in the office, I would WORK, as opposed to some of the other summers who thought it was one big social event.

My point is: don't take anything for granted in this (new) economy. Never forget that the summer is one long job interview.

My problem with Count Layoffula wasn't that he was obnoxious, but that the underlying pop culture references were all muddy. His name alluded to Count Chocula, the breakfast cereal character, but his schtick was ripped from Count von Count from Sesame Street. He should have been called Count von Reduced-Head-Count or something. That would have made him less annoying.

55 -- grow up. Learn to argue without insulting people. And I never said that firing first-years for lame reasons was illegal. (Yes, I know they are all at-will employees). I merely pointed out that firing them for their performances as summer associates sounds pretextual and dishonest.

And I can tell from you from experience (having worked in BigLaw for a few years now) that firms don't feel terribly compelled to hire 100% of their summer classes. If they don't like someone, they will not think twice about not giving them an offer.

I didn't eat enough beef at the party!! I'm going to be fired!!!!

53 -- Layoffula jumped the shark awhile ago.

My question is why Proskauer would take the PR hit of firing a quarter of its incoming class? They must be in dire economic straits.

70 Here -

Probably should have employed the "preview" button. Criticizing people's grammar and spelling mistakes in a post that contains many of them isn't the best plan - but then again I'm not an "editor."

What kind of TTT firm has a statistically significant number of people fail the bar (90% pass rate for first-time ABA takers)?

"as many as eight first-years lost their job" ?

What, all of eight of them shared one job?

Oh, good one 82!

I agree with 37 - less info is better here!

I agree with 37 - less info is better here!

Why would Proskauer rely on 2007 summer reviews when the first years worked "for real" for the same amount of time this year (around 11 weeks)? Was the Executive Committee so much in a hurry to lay people off that it could not ask those w/ whom the first years worked their opinions? It would make sense for Proskauer to base a decision as important as this on as much relevant amount information it could obtain.

Don't do it -- CWT '05 female associate class was dog shit ugly

I have no problem sacking people who allegedly are BigLaw material and then fail the bar. There is no legitimate excuse for failing the bar.

I have a much bigger problem with hiring someone allegedly based on their performance during a summer internship, and then turning around and using that as a reason for firing after the person has probably made a few life decisions based on the job.

If he was no good, cold-offer him or no-offer him.

Why would any higher tier law students apply here moving forward?

Wow I was fired from Proskauer many years ago and as I posted on the last thread went on to a very happy and successful legal career. To one degree or another I gave these folks a semi pass when I commented last time around, but have concluded that I was way too nice now that this new information has come out,

These partners are truly bad people. They have every right in our capitlaistic world to do this, but the right to do something does not make the action correct.

I hope keeping up profits per partner by a realtively small amount of money in the short term is worth the badd press they are getting now. It is one thing to lay off, it is another to play games like this.

Another source is saying that they are thinking about pulling offers to summers. If true, many of these poor kids had other offers that they turned down as recently as 11 days ago (assuming the NALP deadline is still 12/1). Despicably if true. Anyone have any information of this situation with summer offers being pulled.

I feel bad for the Proskauer first-years, but what about the first-years who were supposed to work at Thelen and Heller? They're far greater in number, so why no write up on them? The majority of them are still unemployed, completely screwed out of what they thought would be a stable work situation. It's really a shame.

Can someone please explain to Elie when a fucking question mark is placed inside quotation marks as opposed to outside?

90 here 89. I guess if you wanted to do labor law you'd consider them because of their reputation in the area. But youd have to weigh that desire against the risk of being canned in you first 90 days at the firm because you didnt laugh at a partner's story as a summer associate 18 months earlier.

89- they won't. not like they ever had, but thats is for PR

Proskauer will be gone/merged w/in two years barring any rapid economic turnaround. I luckily landed an in-house job in February, before the major layoff news, but I could tell even then that Proskauer had some serious under-diversification issues (in clients, not attorneys) as well as some organizational problems. I liked the people I worked with there, but I honestly feel that Proskauer's true place is as a regional NY firm billing at a lower price point. The firm's rise as of late has a lot more to do with solid PR and some lucky years than with the true quality of the firm. Get out while/if you can.

Elie,

How about posting an open thread to provide useful perspective on just how (un)busy laid off lawyers have been leading up to said layoffs/performance terminations.

Is the guy who is not getting killed, but still billing a relatively decent 20-25 hours per week (yes, relatively decent, it being mid-December and in light of current economic turmoil) getting cut? Or are the reductions hitting people who have been billing 2 hours a week for the last 8 weeks and have no hope of getting beyond that in the foreseeable future?

Who will answer? Maybe the laid off lawyers, maybe the people who know the laid off lawyers that are still employed. I don't know, but perspective is always good. Thanks.

I also heard they were planning on pulling offers to incoming summers, 2008 summers and laying off more 1st or 2nd years. Uh oh.

Whatever happened to enjoying your life which includes your SA position as well as your job? Seems pitiful to be paranoid over the fear of being laid off or fired driving your entire existence. No money in the world is worth it, and definitely not 160K.

If each minute of life can be summarized as one less minute of fearing death, then why live?

Proskauer Blows!

Proskauer Rose = Proskauer Blows

Proskauer Rose = Proskauer Blows

Proskauer sucks and I wish I could quit!

Try not to complicate this too much folks - all years are ranked one through whatever. The executive decision was obviously made at a high level and all firms where asked to contribute.

Proskauer Rose = Proskauer Blows

comment removed by moderator

Wow, that's a whole lot of comments removed by moderator.

First!

Wow, that's a whole lot of comments removed by moderator.

First!

ummmm wow? why so many comments removed by moderator? heh maybe this will be too

Whatever happened to enjoying your life which includes your SA position as well as your job? Seems pitiful to be paranoid over the fear of being laid off or fired driving your entire existence. No money in the world is worth it, and definitely not 160K.

If each minute of life can be summarized as one less minute of fearing death, then why live?

I love listening to a bunch of useless conjecture from anonymous law students and junior associates. Proskauer is actually doing great w/r/t profits per partner (see 2007 results). They are doing great precisely because they staff very leanly and fire your ass if you're not pulling your weight or they can find a better associate to do so at the same price.

I'm not defending the decision to fire associates (particularly first years), but people who think this somehow makes Proskauer a potential merger partner are insane or just stupid. They are in a strong position precisely because they aren't afraid to be "evil" and cut associates heads when needed. For the rest of the V20, V30 etc., just wait until 2009 rolls along. White & Case, Simpson and Proskauer will look very good....

Test

I love listening to a bunch of useless conjecture from anonymous law students and junior associates. Proskauer is actually doing great w/r/t profits per partner (see 2007 results). They are doing great precisely because they staff very leanly and fire your ass if you're not pulling your weight or they can find a better associate to do so at the same price.

I'm not defending the decision to fire associates (particularly first years), but people who think this somehow makes Proskauer a potential merger partner are insane or just stupid. They are in a strong position precisely because they aren't afraid to be "evil" and cut associates heads when needed. For the rest of the V20, V30 etc., just wait until 2009 rolls along. White & Case, Simpson and Proskauer will look very good....

Elie, what the heck? Put the comments back. We need something to read here.

Test

Test

way to delete all the comments.

Test

Thelen wasn't saved by Nixon Peabody. No reason to think any other firm will be saved. Your jobs are all in danger. Sorry, but it's the truth.

I can believe that firms will pull offers to summers. 2009 is going to be brutal.

"Do you begin to see, then, what kind of world we are creating? It is the exact opposite of the stupid hedonistic Utopias that the old reformers imagined. A world of fear and treachery and torment, a world of trampling and being trampled upon, a world which will grow not less but more merciless as it refines itself. Progress in our world will be progress toward more pain."
- George Orwell, 1984

All of the PR first years laid off came from non-New York law schools, including Duke, UVA, Penn and Michigan. I find it hard to believe that all these people were let go due to poor reviews. More likely, PR decided to take a hit with recruiting at these schools and concentrate on the New York law schools for the next several years. Good try with regards to your ideas on the layoffs, but in reality, each of these fine people laid off were merely numbers in the "big law" world. I would in no way applaud PR, as some have done here, for their handling of this situation.

So - what do we all think? Has the number of firms to have conducted layoffs reached the critical mass where it will no longer affect future hiring? If only a few firms conduct layoffs, its fair to expect law students to avoid them like the plague. But if a majority of firms conduct layoffs, what choice will there be?

sigh... you are not moved up a class year until January 1st. So in essence, while people might consider themselves "a 2nd year, 3rd year, etc." Law firms do not. So, it is likely that PR just canned 1st years that had been around since fall of '07 and weren't hacking it than kids that had been around for a couple of months.

More layoffs in the Milwaukee-Chicago area.

123 - about 10 associates who STARTED in Sept 2008 were fired

any news on gdc?

gross. the cwt '05 female class was a bunch of cows.

Not trying to start an argument but always thought of Proskauer as a labor law firm -- entertainment largely because of the NHL Commissioner who used to work there. How have they kept up all these years with firms more heavy into M&A and securities?

Not trying to start an argument but always thought of Proskauer as a labor law firm -- entertainment largely because of the NHL Commissioner who used to work there. How have they kept up all these years with firms more heavy into M&A and securities?

Not trying to start an argument but always thought of Proskauer as a labor law firm -- entertainment largely because of the NHL Commissioner who used to work there. How have they kept up all these years with firms more heavy into M&A and securities?

Not trying to start an argument but always thought of Proskauer as a labor law firm -- entertainment largely because of the NHL Commissioner who used to work there. How have they kept up all these years with firms more heavy into M&A and securities?

Not trying to start an argument but always thought of Proskauer as a labor law firm -- entertainment largely because of the NHL Commissioner who used to work there. How have they kept up all these years with firms more heavy into M&A and securities?

What kind of IDIOTIC law firm hires SAs that did poorly during their summer stint? That doesn't make any sense, any way you slice it. You can say that they "thought they could keep the mediocre ones busy for a few years" or whatever bullshit you want to believe, but any firm that hires an associates after a mediocre or poor summer performance is obviously composed of retards with no business sense whatsoever. Proskauer should have shut the hell up and not given any rationale for the layoffs, because this logic just makes that firm look like a fucking clown show.

Proskauer kept certain first years, including 1 in Boston who failed the bar, but fired others who passed the bar. That really needs to be looked into as it is unacceptable to fire first years who passed the bar, while keeping others failed the bar.

Of course Proskauer had to resort to layoffs. It is a firm in decline, and is at best now mid-market firm. That's a shame, Proskauer used to be a first class firm years ago, but those days are long gone. Also, this is only the first wave of layoffs for Proskauer, look for another round within 3 months. They are hurting.

What a terribly run firm. I feel sorry for the decent people there, but fuck Proskauer's leadership.

Elie -

See 96. Anyone else interested?

I'm confused. Are these 2007 law school graduates or 2008 law school graduates? The '07's are still paid like first years, so all of this discussion is a little unclear.

First Year Lay-off Facts:

Fired some people who passed the bar.
Kept some people who failed the bar.
Fired some people who summered.
Kept some 3L hires.

Proskauer is shitlaw.

Proskauer is German for "mustache ride." True. Look it up.

What offices were affected, and how many in each office? PR is telling next year's summers that the 2009 summer program will not be affected.

138 - Proskauer fired 07 AND the more recent 2008 law school grads

These people deserve to be laid off. Summer reviews depend on quality, not quantity of the work you do. If you get poor reviews in your summer, then you don't know how to sell yourself. I summered @ a V20 firm last summer, and enjoyed all of the free lunches and after-hour parties, and only stayed past 6:30 twice. I had excellent reviews because I didn't take on too many projects at once and made sure I did a great job on those I did take one (knowing of course that I will be working my ass off to make hours when I do come back to the firm). You can get a great review by working smart (not necessarily hard), and if you can't do that, then maybe you don't deserve your job.

I second 96's request. Can we get a post where people can discuss how slow you can be, and for how long, before you should start to get worried?

Thank you #112. Well said.

Agreed with 144 -- I think basing a hiring or firing decision on summer associate reviews is fair game. Those let go were probably slackers with a huge sense of entitlement.

Whatever the criteria the firings were based on, why on earth would a firm protect 1st years who failed the bar and fire those who passed? It would seem to me that those who survived the cuts but still failed may be used as a pretext for another round of cuts early next year.

Our labor practice is suffering big time - although no one here will say it outloud if they know anyone is listening. Once a highly regarded labor law firm, some decided it would be sexier to sell our firm as an east coast entertainment firm a few years ago. That and a good 06/07 attracted a lot of higher quality law students than this place probably deserves - and now those same people are paying for it. Labor work is still coming in from a few partners, but generally much more scarce then it used to be. Plenty of 1rst-3rd years begging for doc review in the labor group is pretty alarming.

Last week Proskauer called all incoming summer associates, as well as 2008 summers, to assure them that their offers are not being rescinded.

150 - Proskauer probably said the same thing to its first years who are now looking for jobs

I'm sure those first years were pretty "assured" when they got their offers to return for full time employment. Not exactly the most reliable source for such assurances.

Last week Paul Weiss called Cravath to tell him that Proskauer was giving a mustache ride to Skadden over at CWT. True 'dat.

144,

You are a world class tool.

Heard an (unconfirmed) rumor that Proskauer has cut it's summer budget by 35% for next year. Either we're rescinding offers or next summer's class might only get the perks of (*gasp*) government attorneys...minus the job security, prestige, interesting work, manageable hours, and lack of a feeling of impending doom.

I second 96's request, and would like to add that there be a sub-section strictly devoted to mustache rides.

heh 149 are you talking about a partner with the initials J.H.

90 here as a former Proskauer person try to survive this mess and get the heck out. The partnership seems to try to clone itslf with more obnoxious people and they seem to care little about the associates.

The normal folks their seem to last there the shortest either by there own choice or the firms.

Good luck to the associates over there.

90 here as a former Proskauer person try to survive this mess and get the heck out. The partnership seems to try to clone itslf with more obnoxious people and they seem to care little about the associates.

The normal folks their seem to last there the shortest either by there own choice or the firms.

Good luck to the associates over there.

128: No, they have not kept up. They have a general corporate department. With few exceptions, the vast majority of deals are for low dollar amounts and simple, basic M&A, finance, private equity and capital markets for the few mid-cap and large-cap clients that the firm has. Especially in M&A, if there is an opposing counsel from a city with more than 500,000 people, it's a record-setting day at Proskauer, as evidenced by many opposing counsel being from small firms in third and fourth tier legal markets. I would not recommend any associate going there if he/she wants to learn more than basic corporate law or be nothing more than a generalist for some reason: You'll hate life and you'll get inferior experience to your peers, which will make you less marketable when you're laid off because the firm wants to keep PPP as high as possible.

160 is a paralegal....but he's so right it hurts.

128 and 149: The labor department is constantly in a state of flux. It gained notoriety because Gary Bettman (Commissioner of the NHL) and David Stern (Commissioner of the NBA) are Proskauer alums and the firm still has a lot of big name partners. However, after Proskauer fell to Band 2 or 3 in the Chambers rankings a couple of years ago (it has subsequently risen back to Band 1) there was some talk about consolidating the labor department into the litigation department because was no labor work (and the firm wiped out entire classes of labor associates via stealth layoffs). During the subsequent summers the bait-and-switch games the firm plays were in full effect (i.e., recruit on strengths or perceived strengths like labor and sports, wait for recruits to come to the summer associate program before telling them that there is no work in that area--but pitch it as temporary (or in the rare case of potential superstars, give them plush assignments in these areas during the summer), spend tons of money on partying during the fun summer program, wait for associates to join the firm as 1Ls, and then farm labor associates out to general commercial litigation when there is no work, or tell them that there are few, if any, labor and sports assignments and you should have known better before coming here). Unless you're a glutton for punishment or enjoy misdirection, you'd be better off elsewhere.

Proskauer fired FIRST YEARS??? Wow! I feel sorry for those left behind

162 here. To clarify, I meant to say when Proskauer's labor department fell to Band 2 or 3 in the Chambers rankings a couple of years ago. Most of the other departments are not ranked by Chambers.

"Chadbourne Proskauer & Rose." Heard it here first. They'll think CPR will make a handy marketing slogan to all the companies that need their "life saving" support, or in reality, the law students that think Proskauer actually has more than 2-3 legit clients. But the name choice will backfire when the poorly merged firm dissolves a few years later - even Elie will probably figure out a clever headline for that one. Although no one will be reading ATL if Elie is still working here in 3 years.

Anyone who does think that a summer program is an "extended 12 week interview" needs to have their head examined. Of course it is. Even in 2007 or 2006 or 2005 etc. That is why some people don't get jobs at the end of the "glorified recruitment tool".

Anyone who thinks that a summer program isn't an "extended 12 week interview" needs to have their head examined. Of course it is. Even in 2007 or 2006 or 2005 etc. That is why some people don't get jobs at the end of the "glorified recruitment tool".

Proskauer fired some 1st years who didn't even summer for them (3L hires). Those 1st years also passed the bar exam. How can Proskauer justify this decision?

proskauer = shitlaw

I joined PR as a "labor" lawyer 3 years ago. Got some ok labor work (probably no more than 60% of my assignments) for the first year. After that it got increasingly scarce - and my attempts to talk to partners about it met with almost complete failure (except for one partner who was at least truthful). Many others in the 1st-6th year class also shared this experience. It's one thing if you don't get to do the type of work you want to do - especially if it's just temporary or totally dependent on some floundering segment of the economy. But seeing as how Proskauer sells itself as THE labor law firm - the lack of actual labor work over the past two years has been pretty astonishing. I'd even understand this lack of work if PR just had horrible management (we do) and lost labor clients (we did). But watching partners (and some associates) continuously tell summers and recruits how amazing the labor practice makes me feel dirty. Almost as dirty as when they get to hear about our "top notch" sports and entertainment practice. I never wanted to do sports&entertainment work, but you'll have an easier time walking on to the Knicks than becoming a sports/entertainment lawyer at PR. All law firms do a little bit of a bait-and-switch, but some are competent enough not to continuously try to sell themselves on two practice groups that barely exist anymore. It's the equivalent of a CWT partner sitting down with a prospective hire this fall and talking about the amazing credit default swap work going on. PR counts on a combination of stupid law students (which once included myself), surprisingly effective recruiting and marketing folks, and pure blind hope that no one will figure out it is just a 2nd-tier commercial litigation and 3rd-4th tier corporate shop that has no buisiness competing in the market it is. Definitely look for more layoffs and cold-offers at the end of the summer.

There shouldn't be any tolerance for firms that do this.unless they are literally about to go bankrupt. Likely, the firm is just trying to save a few million in profits. 1st years who get laid off may never be able to market themselves again, and some don't prove their worth for years. It's not even good business sense if there is any long-term view. I hope other firms learn from this terrible publicity. Didn't Proskauer just expand into Chicago?

Agree with 171. The only reasons to fire more than a nominal number of 1rst years are: (1) if you are really close to going under, or losing credit lines, etc; and, (2) is if looking at a 5 year plan you do feel that the cost of supporting the dead weight 1rst years will outweigh the cost of trying to replace them when the market picks up, combined w/ the reputation costs. I tend to think it's number 2 here, but that means that PR has probably made a choice that becoming a good regional firm is more profitable then trying to support the image of a top tier law firm - which is a valid conclusion despite the unfortunate harm it causes the laid off attorneys. Either way, the decision to cut a fairly large number of first years indicates long-term, not short-term, problems.

Isn't it funny that Proskauer is firing first years and is trying to play it off as being "peformance based"?

I don't think they are playing this off as "performance based". What you see here is rumor and speculation. Not fact. If it were a public relations release from the firm I'd believe it. The first and only reason for lay offs (not firings) that PR reported was the current economic crisis. It would be much better for their reputation to say this was a massive "performance based" layoff, but this is not the case.

Re: 160---what's wrong with a generalist corp. practice?

Here's an idea. Since a number of you have commented on how BigLaw is TTT why don't you start up your own firms? According to your posts, you are all quite talented, top of the class, attorneys. I'm sure your billable rates will be most appreciated by the businesses that are also cutting jobs by the THOUSANDS.

174 - I agree; if they were truly concerned with their reputation they would not be the first (and probably to this date only) firm in the country to fire first year associates who had passed the bar and who had been employed there for only 2 1/2 months.

Much more important: Tara Reid and her fugly fake boob checked into rehab. Poor dear.

Oh, and she got axed from Proskauer...

It's tough to have a summer review result in you being laid-off more than a year later - but now the reality will finally set in with summers that we are not running a summer camp!!

I absolutely hate all the ragging on the writers on this website. But, seriously, the subject matter, opinions, and quality of writing has fallen so remarkably since Lat. I'd love to read and article (and comments) without rolling my eyes every once in a while.

"PRETEXTUAL" IS NOT A F*CKING WORD!!!! OK, so I feel like crap with cold in full force now that it's the weekend. But Christ, 32, you look like a moron using it. And 55, you look like an even bigger moron for insulting 32 without clueing into this fact.

And yes, it's damn hard and takes a lot of effort but 1st yrs can get canned based on performance, especially if they were iffy as SAs but firm gave them benefit of the doubt and chance to prove themselves as actual associates. Some man up; others don't (or can't). Bad timing for the latter. And failing the bar doesn't make for a great start either. So stop crying for all 1st yrs - it sucks but that's the crappy reality right now.

I used to work for a boutique PR was interested in acquiring. Word was that once the partners I worked for looked under the hood at PR they ran away in horror.

9.50
- Truthiness wasn't a work until a few moons ago. Get over it!
- Not exactly sure which is worse giving offers to "iffy" SAs or not. While the SAs future is hampered by the latter, the firm definitely benefits from the former (e.g. 100% offer rate, etc).
- At a minimum firms should let the SA know that despite the offer, the SA's future remains "iffy." Based on such information SAs can plan accordingly.

- Not 32/55. I'm just saying

Like any other business, associates at law firms are at-will employees. If the firm does not think you are valuable enough to keep around, they can cut you, whether you're a 1st year or a partner. I feel for the 1st years, but let's be realistic. Only the cream of the crop, top 5% of all law students get into the pearly gates of Proskauer or any biglaw firm. A very small number of them get laid off due to the economy, and people get all up and arms. But, would they prefer to have collected good $ and a severance check from a biglaw firm or be one of the other 95% that is getting pushed out the door at smaller law firms (many of which are folding or are doing even worse than biglaw) with only a few months of $50k salary and no severance?

Let's get a little perspective here. And if anything, from the reports I've heard from friends at Proskauer, the people who really got screwed here were the 2nd years, some of who were good and hard working people.

Elie, Lat, anyone...WE NEED A SEVERANCE CHART!!!

what a rancid toilet

It's bull shit to use summer reviews to fire first years, but not for the reason Elie stated. The reviews were obviously positive enough to merit the extension of a full time job offer, which was accepted by the then summer associate. For the same firm to then use the summer reviews to justify an adverse employment decision several months into full time employment seems flatly contradictory, as a little over a year ago, it used the same reviews to justify a positive employment decision. Such a process does substantial violence to the idea that performance reviews have a consistent meaning over time.

However, at the same time, it sounds like the firm needed to cut some dead weight due to economic concerns, and they had to look to first years in order to make some of the cuts. Combined with bar results and any other information about the frist year associate, it seems fair to look to the prior summer reviews to glean information about who were likely to be the worst associates of the group.

Nonetheless, if a firm has to discard its newest associates, a class doubtless least responsible for the economic condition of the firm, there is something seriously wrong with the firm at its top, which is supposed to produce enough work to perpetuate the firm into the future.

Elie, Lat, please make a recruiting chart with info like who's fucked first years, who rescinded offers IN APRIL. Law students and laterals need an easy way to keep track of this stuff.

To add to 186's point, it would have been much better for the victims here if Proskauer had just cold offered them at the end of the summer. They would have had a much better chance of getting a job BACK THEN.

To fire them NOW for their "performance" during the summer is just heartless.

Fuck you Proskaeur!!

The bottom line is these associates should have worked harder during the summer of 2007. Instead, they were cocky, and assumed that they would get a full-time offer irrespective of how hard they worked and what they produced.

Yes, PR should have no-offered them in 2007. And yes, they would have had an easier time finding a new job back then. But things change, and PR cannot be expected to keep associates around who couldn't even bother to perform during their summer with the firm.

Also, I heard their 3L grades went way down.

For as long as I live, I will have nothing but awful things to say about PR. This is just horrible.

And I know very many star associates who had piss poor summer reviews because NO ONE GIVES A SHIT ABOUT WHAT SUMMERS DO. Summer reviews are there for show ... this to me is unbelievable, and what is more unebleivable is that anyone could think otherwise on here.
b

*drops pants, sits on my Proskauer, shits, flushes*

189:

Wrong. Who died and made you the Chief Mustache Rider?

*watches the log swirl around and disappear as my Proskauer flushes it down*

190 -- That is just not true. Summer reviews are definitely taken seriously at my firm. This is what we base our practice group selection on. If someone can't write for shit, for example, they won't be going into litigation.

You see -- it is your attitude that is the problem. The sense of entitlement of summers is hitting an inflection point. And, in this economy, I expect this to change. Summers should have to EARN their jobs.

If things get much worse in 2009, expect firms to cut their summer program altogether. They can just hire 3L's and save tons of cash in the process. What are the law students going to do about it? Oh that's right -- they will still kiss my ass for a chance to work at the firm.

Well done, 190, spoken like a true law student. Firms just love paying over $3k per week to people not qualified to tie their shoes and then lavish thousands of dollars in additional perks on them, fully expecting them to make total asses of themselves at work, have an ego for no discernible reason, leave at 4 everyday and get completely wasted at firm parties. Which is what many of these 1st years did.

But hey, none of it matters. If you went to law school and finagled your way into biglaw, you're owed a job.

To all law students and juniors: ask the midlevels and seniors at your firm what really matters and what is expected of you. Don't rely on this asinine board, or you're going to be without a job very quickly.

194, stfu. Proskauer led them on like a cheap floozy. If they weren't good enough for the firm, then the firm should've cold offered them last year so they could get something else.

As a first year law student, why would I ever interview with Proskauer? If I know that the firm will tell me that I received great summer reviews and then turn around and kick me out the door 2 months into my career using those same reviews, I'm running as far away as I can from these guys.

189,

I also heard that they killed kittens 3L year.

Why are people here trying so hard to justify firing someone based on a summer associate review? A bad or mediocre review could mean that only one partner or associate didn't like the summer associates work on one project. If the summer associate completely bombed everything, then the firm should not have taken the summer on for full time employment.

My summer review went smashingly, and all I got was a (reduced-rate) mustache ride.

Proskauer, Proskauer, Proskauer you have managed to create a large group of mid level and senior associates that hate you over the years. Could it be when these people flee that this is why they dont refer work back to the firm?

Being nice to people in a shameless and pathetic way during their two week notice period really doesnt buy you anything.

I mean you could be nice to your associates because it makes the working environment more pleasant, but you moron partners arent bright enough to be nice (or at least tolerable) to associates because of your own long term interest.

Signed,
A former PR Associate Associte that is now inhouse that will never send you work.

Proskauer rules, party on.

First rule of Proskauer nothing is logical in their decision making process. Second rule of Proskauer if you are unsure of any rule refer to rule one.

Associate logical response. Go someone else if you can, but it you cant try to survive until you can jump to saner waters.

Are you freaking kidding me?! Busting on Summers because of their work product?

I mean, fine, if you hand in complete crap and never meet any deadlines, that is one thing.

But seriously, you had to realllllly screw up to get a bad review, as far I know. And when the firm is taking you out every night, buying you lunch every day, etc., it is not shocking that people aren't going to exactly work their hardest.

Summer is NOT a job interview.

This is just a BS excuse to drop some people. And it is horribly lame and hopefully is reflected in whether any potential Summers accept an offer next year.

Perhaps Messrs. Proskauer and Rose could use an old-fashioned (reduced-rate) mustache ride?

Current Proskauer associates may want to think about jumping (the sinking) ship soon. I heard a rumor that another round of cuts are coming a couple months into the new year.

NYC to 160K; Proskauer to lame.

In a race to the bottom, Proskauer will always be in the vanguard.

Bad SA review = no offer

Layoff/firing based on 15-mo-old SA review, after 3 months of work = firmicide

Stupid, stupid, stupid. Totally unfair move to new members of the profession; law students, associates and firm alumni will never forget.

This is terrible.

If we are gonna vote CSM 99, can we agree to vote Proskauer 999?

And to the few of you defending Proskauer, you deserve to get fired and slandered by your employer on christmas eve.

My anger over my layoff in years past has subsided because everything really worked out for me over the years despite Proskauer's actions.

These actions really fune me.

183 - Looks like Proskauer fired a ton of first years in the NY office and a ton of 2nd years in the Boston office. Most if not all of the fired 1st years were told last year by their Supervising Attorney that their work over the summer was superb. I wonder how much they are hurting...

209 here. I meant to say I wonder how much Proskauer is hurting. It does not need to be said that the young associates let go because Proskauer is running itself into the ground are hurting because they will not be able to find a job in this economy. More layoffs to come I hear.

None of the old rules apply anymore. Those first years who quickly accept this harsh and unfriendly reality will grow up as quickly as they can and survive. It's be a man time--big time. The truth is it has always been Dog eat Dog out in the world, it's now unmasked, that's all. The term " The Firm" Is a hopeful term, a steadying phase, but we've all seen how firms can turn to Jello in an instant. You have to have a cosmic sense of humor to survive this storm. If you get rigid with fear, you'll be the first man over board. Stay loose and smart . I know you've got loans and mortgages and some of you poor first years even have kids, but stay loose, no one wants a scaredy cat on board their slippery ship.

The partners in most firms are doing all they can to bale water and keep their ship afloat. Help them in the way you work, behave and live you life. This is not the time to whine and whimper. It's the time to get sharp, stay sharp, and with a hopeful smile on your face, steady your ship.

None of the old rules apply anymore. Those first years who quickly accept this harsh and unfriendly reality will grow up as quickly as they can and survive. It's be a man time--big time. The truth is it has always been Dog eat Dog out in the world, it's now unmasked, that's all. The term " The Firm" Is a hopeful term, a steadying phase, but we've all seen how firms can turn to Jello in an instant. You have to have a cosmic sense of humor to survive this storm. If you get rigid with fear, you'll be the first man over board. Stay loose and smart . I know you've got loans and mortgages and some of you poor first years even have kids, but stay loose, no one wants a scaredy cat on board their slippery ship.

The partners in most firms are doing all they can to bale water and keep their ship afloat. Help them in the way you work, behave and live you life. This is not the time to whine and whimper. It's the time to get sharp, stay sharp, and with a hopeful smile on your face, steady your ship.

Are partners doing all they can? I wonder...

213 they are indeed. They are doing all they can to keep profits per partner up while ignoring long term reputational injury to their firm and a group of people that have been at the firm for less than three month. Kind of short sighted in my book.

The real question is are other firms going to follow suit?
Which firms are in trouble, but not telling--yet? These are mean times we're in now.

I think Proskauer is the only national firm to this point to fire first years who have passed the bar. It would destroy their recruiting if no other firm followed suit.

God damn, should have gone the PHD route. Now I bust my ass, and wait for the guillotine to drop.

I would be embarassed if I were a Proskauer associate. Also, I would be very scared for my job security (regardless of how the executive committee may try to spin it and suggest otherwise).

This board could use a collective mustache ride just about now, I'm sensing.

JEBUS NO! I can't believe they fired first years! What was this fucking firm thinking?

They will never ever ever attract top talent again. This economy will improve eventually (even if only in 10 years), but PR will never recover from this.

And I will personally make it my mission to ensure that nobody from my T-5 school goes there.

Didn't they significantly build up their corporate practice with new management the last three years?

Didn't they significantly build up their corporate practice with new management the last three years?

There is nothing, nothing PR could have done that is worse. Anyone who says the 1st years had it coming to them are fucking idiots. If they got offers, they obviously didn't screw up too bad during the summer. There are MANY great associates I know who got awful summer reviews (we talked about this friday) and there are some SA 'stars' whose star-faded once they had to be attorneys 24/7. This is bullshit. If PR just said "our firm is awful and we need to make cuts, its nothing against the 1st years" it would be terrible, but at least the 1st years could have SOME chance of getting back on their feet. This is just stupid.

For as long as I live I will never say one good thing about PR. Cadwalader at least did mid-level/senior associates in struggling departments - same with White/Case, etc. .. it sucks but whatever. PR is the worst.

There are some summers every year at every BigLaw firm who get offers even though the firm doesn't really want them back. This is the result of Vault and ATL reports: firms are scared to take a hit, because that will affect their ability to attract the candidates they DO want. So these summers get poor reviews, but still get an offer. It shouldn't surprise people that when it comes time to do layoffs, these are the ones that are let go.

170 - The reason there is no labor work for associates in the new york office is that PR staffs mosts of its labor cases with associates from the newark office, who are paid less and did not graduate from top-tier schools. Clients don't like paying NY rates for run of the mill labor cases, so the work is done out of newark where the rates are a cheaper.

As a law student, why should I apply to Proskauer where I know I will be on the chopping block on Day One if things get tough? Why not go to Cadwalader or W/C who, although may be facing similar financial difficulties, will at least afford me the opportunity to show what I can do for more than 8 weeks?

Bottom line is that law students shouldn't apply to Proskauer Rose. You'll just be a number. Watch safely from another firm as they take a nice mustache ride down the ranks.

227 nailed it.

What a Sunday evening....But it had to happen. All of it. The soil had to be turned over: Frauds, felons, greed. Ridiculous empty values like Hermes Ties and BMW's held up like Demi-Gods by young 1st year bucks to aspire to. Come on idiot savants: Jump! Get your Hermes Ties and Gucci shoes. What empty BS we fall for. Then the reality of the tax bite. There's nothing left after rent and loans. So, it's Sunday night and I'm thinking what #211 said was true. I'm going to spend tonight getting my head on straight. I'm not going to drink myself into a stupor every weekend anymore. It's not fun anymore,getting wasted. The word says it all. That's for 19 year old kids. Wasted? In this economy? No more picking up the tab for people I just met like the little big man, I'll never be, if I keep blowing my money, time and life on bullshit.

It's Warrior time. We're going back to the old days, where the best men win and the others fall off the page. While I might not have been one of the best before, I intend to become one now. So, Thank you PR you've woken me out my stupor.

To #98, I feel for your fear, but I also feel it's not realistic.Did you really think life was supposed to be a couple of decades as the beach with a few work days thrown in?

Real life is tough, full of challenges, reversals, ice storms, earthquakes, corporations vanish. Men you thought were great Santa Claus guys steal you blind and leave you and your family for dead.

If you stand over a dark deep pit and go,"But I thought it was supposed to be clear and clean and full of gold,"
watch out. Best to accept life as it really is and realize there are many ways to live a life. Move on from the deep dark pit, or you'll fall in.

I know it's hard when you think you had it all worked out: Job, career path. Many of us (me) had a map:three years in big law then on to investment banking. So much for that plan. A job doesn't define you. If you got into Big Law, you probably went to a couple of good schools. You'll land on your feet, even if you get fired. Chill. We're all having to rethink life now. Is that a bad thing?

Proskauer, Simpson, Sullivan, Skadden. It doesn't matter. We're all fucked by 2010. Hope everyone has cash reserves.

Any other layoffs to announce? Cooley had stealth layoffs recently that apparently have gone unreported. Bye bye real estate associate -- who's next?

Any other layoffs to announce? Cooley had stealth layoffs recently that apparently have gone unreported. Bye bye real estate associate -- who's next?

Any other layoffs to announce? Cooley had stealth layoffs recently that apparently have gone unreported. Bye bye real estate associate -- who's next?

227 et al - Isn't it pretty simple that there for every prospect that turns down Proskauer there will be 5 more prospects ready to take their place? The whole "This will affect their recruiting for YEARS!" schtick is garbage.

Any real-world advice for current 2Ls in general?

Keep grades up?
Work hard this summer?
Take Bankruptcy/Restructuring?
Buy knee pads?

Anything else to stay marketable?

No one's saying that Proskauer won't get any law school applicants. All that is being asserted is that Proskauer will have to go deeper down the list of credible law schools or those applicants that have much weaker grades. However, if you're one of the many law students who often have more than a Proskauer offer in hand, what would make you accept there? I mean if they're going to put you on the chopping block from day one... Also, it doesn't sound from this board that many people are loving it there right now.

Well said, 229.

I went to a T-5 and do not work at PR... but I will speak evils of this firm to students in my law school forever. FOREVER. Simply unacceptable and downright stupid.

Have fun getting any students from the top law schools in the coming years, PR! You fucked up BIG TIME.

236 - Don't apply to Proskauer Rose. If you can manage to follow this piece of advice, you may have a job once you graduate (instead of the great Christmas "swag" Proskauer provided its first years with last week).

Other questions come to mind tonight: How do we remain decent and upright and brave in this, what seemingly endless deflation of all we grew up looking up to? I never cared for Hermes ties or Gucci, I don't mean that nonsense, but these giants of our industry falling one after another. I don't know who to look to follow.

Just b/c Proskauer fired first years doesn't mean the entire field of law is going down the drain. The strongest firms will survive and come out of this stronger; obviously Proskauer Rose will not be one of them.

can confirm that goodwin procter (both boston and nyc) are conducting stealth layoffs. at least 10-15 associates...all years, different practice areas, have been let go over the course of the past month and nothing has been said at the firm. doesn't look like they are done yet.

236, everyone should take Bankruptcy. And Tax.

WTF else are you going to take? Chinese law?

In reading all of this, a couple of questions came to mind with respect to dismissing first year associates. First, I thought it was called the "practice" of law for a reason. Like any of the other professions, it takes a long time to learn the substantive law of your chosen field, as well as how to apply that law in making judgment calls on behalf of clients. If this is true (and, I think it is), then dismissing a first year associate on the basis of a "performance review" does not seem to make a great deal of sense. If I am wrong, I would like to hear why.

Second, I imagine that PR mentions one form of training program or another in its recruiting materials. If PR's battery of formal/informal training exercises has not run its course, then how may it claim that perceived performance deficiencies by very junior associates practicing law were so ingrained that they could not be corrected? What does that say about the training programs themselves (assuming they exist(ed))? What does that say about those tasked with planning, organizing and running those programs?

Damn. I'm a plaintiff's lawyer, over the years I've had a few ERISA cases defended by the Proskauer partner. I won't put his name on here for obvious reasons. He's a real gentleman with a great intellect, it's a pleasure to deal with that guy, unlike many of the lying assholes on that side of the fence. I guess he won't be going anywhere but it's a shame to see a guy with that many years in the game having to worry about his future and, if I know him, that of the people who worked for him. He was one of those guys who clearly trusted the kids who worked for him, or at least the main associate I dealt with.

#245 You raise excellent, thoughtful points. But the points you raise assume a lack of desperation, which the act of wholesale firing a string of 1st Yrs. clearly demonstrates. PR is clearly out of its collective mind, which can only mean that the word on the street, that they're "going down" is true.

Firing First years would be my first choice. They are worthless and remain that way until about their 16th month in.

Second I would fire 10th years plus with no business. These two culprits are the blood suckers of the firm. The overpaid 10th 11th 14th year "partner" who brings zero business to the table - the so called working partner.

#247

245 here. I appreciate your calling attention to the apparently desperate nature of these dismissals, and I want to stay with that for a second.

Assume it's true. Assume PR was desperate in making these decisions (assuming, of course, everything that has preceded about this story is true). Part of our role as lawyers, as I see it, is to maintain composure under stressful situations faced by our clients and deliver sound advice when it matters most. To give in to desperation and the exigency of the circumstances may cause a client to lose sight of the big picture and what is really important (e.g. strategic vision). I understand that it's sometimes unavoidable.

Here, if the acts taken were indeed desperate, then the problem may be more acute than I originally conceived as it would be one of perspective--the loss of it, that is.

In my view, any firm that concedes (explicitly or tacitly) that it has lost the ability to train junior associates (to make the law intelligible and comprehensible to those who are actually trained in the law, albeit junior) faces the concern that such a firm will not be able to communicate those ideas effectively to non-lawyers, such as clients, jurors and the public.

Someday when the economy turns around, law students could lobby to be "guaranteed" employment for 2 years similar to a civil service employee with only extreme instances allowing firing. . .perhaps this could in exchange for some of their salary.

If you're committed to going to PR for the summer 2009 program, any advice?

If you're committed to going to PR for the summer 2009 program, any advice?

251, you should go obviously, but I'd interview like mad during 3L

251 - Start looking for a job clerking or working for the government (but don't commit to anything yet). This way, if Proskauer rescinds (which I believe they will since its 2009 summer class is FIFTY PERCENT LARGER than it was last year) you won't find yourself in the cold like the first year associates (literally and figuaratively) did last week. Even if Proskauer doesn't rescind, be prepared to work your ass off to ensure you get an offer. Unfortunately, Prosakuer has shown that an offer for full time employment can be rescinded before you start (which it already did this year) or be made superfluous since it has no hesitation to fire you 2 months in. Whatever you decide, good luck.

251:

1. Climb on mustache.
2. Ride like hell.
3. Repeat.

#245 you are again completely correct. But do clients really do that much in depth thinking? The vast amount of constantly changing information about our world today makes retention of today's news near impossible, as it's replaced by tons of new information almost overnight. As are, possibly the partners who made that decision, or at least replaced in that capacity, or they will have simply driven away from the current mess, and after a month, if asked for its facts--they'll say,"What mess?"

I experienced Proskauer's true colors during a recruiting cocktail party. The litigation parters I met where in-you-face kind of people with haliotosis to boot, and one had the audacity to discard his shrimp tails on a perspective summer's plate repeatedly. I also received a mix of bait-and-switch tactics during my on campus interview with an uncensored reality check from the mouth of a drunk partner who informed me that "no one does [exciting practice area highlighted on website] that full-time."

Also, nervous t10 1l might find it interesting that Proskauer was one of the firms that hired 1l summers from schools other than Harvard.

Perhaps it's because I'm new and a girl...But, what does climb on a mustache mean?

You want to know why Proskauer sucks? Steve Rattner, the man exists to destroy firms and ruin the lives and careers of associates (when he isn't to busy fondling himself in front of female associates). When PR goes under it will be the second BIG LAW firm he will have played a part in killing during this decade.

I just learned that Proskauer Rose hired a bunch of 2nd and 3rd year laterals in October. It then had the audacity to fire its own 1st and 2nd years 6 weeks later. Unbelievable.

Proskauer Rose LLP attorneys conspired in theft of Court Documents and Forgery of judges' signatures, and then committed Misprision of Felony, visit the URL below for Evidence.

http://proskauerfraud.info/

261, take a look at a statement regarding Navid Soleymani of Proskauer Rose LLP at the URL below.

http://InjusticeUSA.info/#soleymani