YEAH bitches! I rock.

Also, Rod Blagojevich is retaining Ed Gensen; who wouldn't want a defense lawyer that rides a rascal.

#1

non-equittty partttners

How much do most nonequity partners at Am Law 100 firms earn? Around $300K-$400K?

I would rather nail a sheep than work for K&L Gates.

dude, "credit card-waving first- and second-year associates"? what a d-bag

7th!!!!

5 -- Baaa, just be sure and use a condom

Guys in my high school played Hang On all the time. It was no big deal.

non-equity "partners" are associates with delusions of grandeur

Nonequity partnership is a beautiful thing. You make $400K plus, and you can tell the non-lawyers you meet at cocktail parties that you're a law firm partner, which is super-prestigious. Very few people will every figure out that you're just a glorified wage save.

Headline should read "Non-Equity Partners Trying to Hang On, Too"

God, Elie, pull yourself together.

When I make partner I will gild my sheep and wear a golden fleece to work everyday in addition to nailing my gilded sheep.

6- I'm pretty sure he's just saying that to make sure the clients keep paying for these partners who bill at triple the rate a first year does, I somehow doubt many associates waive their credit cards around at a rate of 600 bucks an hour

There's no better way to convince clients to pony up and pay the bill for junior associates than referring to them as "credit card-waving first- and second- years." Who exactly sends them around the country to run up bills anyway? Kalis clearly does not "add value."

LOL, business model "akin to a diamond" sounds much nicer than "pyramid"

10 says, "Non-equity 'partners' are associates with delusions of grandeur." Only the very young ones, or those assured of equity partnership. The rest are white-collar working people with dying dreams of a career.

"credit-card waving first or second-year associates?" fuck you, man! how does any associate working hard, billing horrible hours for the firm have even an ounce of respect for this guy?

this guy probably never got laid in college....

400K?

try 800 to a millie bitch, IF you have business

It's a pyramid scheme. Look out!

19 - IF you had business, wouldn't you be an equity partner?

It depends on how much non-equities make. First, I think lots of top NYC firms like Davis Polk etc still don't have non equity. You either make equity or you don't.

At other places like Morgan Lewis they have equity but I can't imagine you make much more than 300k. You are basically a glorified senior associate until and unless you originate your own business which is difficult.

At other large firms with lower profit per partners I've heard non equity partners can make 250k only.

I really doubt non equities would pull in 400k+ except at Vault 20 firms that have non-equity, which I assume are few. I think Gibson Dunn, for instance, may have non equity and i wouldn't be surprised if they pull in 400k plus.

21 = dumbfuk who does not realize some firms require a stop at income status...which is why said dumbfuk will likely never make equity

Interesting post. Non-equity partners are in fact, like associates, employees by another name. But they don't talk on these boards. Why is that? I think it would be very interesting to hear the perspective of a NEP in these uncertain times.

"Clients have little or no interest in paying for credit card-waving first- and second-year associates to fly around the country and run up bills."

Wow. I'd hate to try and recruit for K&L after that. And I don't want to hear any of this "of course they're useless to firms and clients until they learn something!" crap. If a junior is on a plane to go take care of a deposition, an interview, or a document collection, it's because the team needs it done and is too swamped to send someone more experienced. The junior is still expected to get the job done right, and the client is charged a lower fee for the junior's time.

Credit card-waving kids my ass. No doubt his skill and experience are worth every penny he's bilked out of clients for luxury airfare, transportation, accomodations, dining, and entertainment. Keep that sort of attitude right up, Petey; you're ensuring the health, morale, and long-term sucess of everyone else's firms.

The Rule: Have business or take the mustache ride. Period.

are finals at the second tier schools such as BU, northwestern, pepperdine, etc. over? can we expect an upswing in posts now?

Credit card waiving associates? At my prior firm, it was the partners, including the non-equities, who would find a way to fly first class (even if the client expressly prohibited it), would insist on staying at hotels that sometimes cost more than $750 per night, and would make sure that a car service awaited them at every point during their trip. The secretaries who booked these accomodations and prepared the expense reports for these extravagant charges gossiped about them frequently.

goodbye atl, t'was fun while it lasted...gave you more chances than you deserved, but alas, time to stop polluting my mind with this drivel.

get over the 'credit card waiving associates' thing. i think this is an interesting topic. More comments from non-equity partners or people who know anything about it.

Anyone want to give odds on the chairs of Wachtell, CSM, or S&C saying that about their first and second years? It would never happen, because you get what you pay for. Their clients know it about their lawyers, and the partners know it about their associates.

At K&L, well . . . guess the partners know what they were able to buy in the recent graduates department.

Non-Equity partner = of counsel = career associate

look into your future my children, look!

31, either that or K&L is ran by a serious asshole. Are you trying to say that any associate that isn't working at the three mentioned firms does not deserve the chairman’s respect? If that's the case then why would the chairman respect any of his attorneys, or even himself unless they lateraled from Wachtell, CSM, or S&C.? Even above the chairman, why would clients ever trust any firm other than the three mentioned to do anything for them.
I realize you're trying to make a relatively simple statement, but your statement is couched in an absurd elitist attitude.

Non-equity partners at Kirkland make a good chunk of change.

"'Clients have little or no interest in paying for credit card-waving first- and second-year associates to fly around the country and run up bills,' [K&L Gates Chairman Peter Kalis] said."

Let me be the latest to call Pater Kalis a colossal asshole. It's not junior associates' fault that you or your clients are asking them to do that kind of work. Fuck you and your shitty firm - any law student with other options should take them.

NEP at Seyfarth make about $250k.

23 love to take loads of jizz. I have another one for you, open up bitch

23 loves to take loads of jizz. I have another one for you, open up bitch

29 - goodbye. We hardly knew (or need) ye.

Hi. KLGates associate here. Kalis reportedly makes $2.5 million/year, highest paid partner. K&L has tons of NEPs; they are proud to call it a career track. Not sure how much bank they make, though, b/c the firm is not transparent about pay, even for associates, after the first-year.

Kalis' comment is sure to win him many fans among his fellow equity partners, but not among the associates, most of whom (like me) don't know the guy and are suspicious of the latest Pittsburgh/NYC edicts on cost-cutting (401k match, health care costs, Bar Association dues).

Kalis is always quoted in these NLJ or AmLaw articles because he is desparately trying to give more stature to pathetic firm. The guy went to YLS and was a Rhodes Scholar but never had the stones to test his mettle at a real white-shoe firm -- which is why he never left Pittsburgh.

Someone has to actually do the work the rainmakers bring in and manage the cases, and realistically nonequity partners and junior associates are not interchangeable.

Jones Day fixed income partners (not called non-equity because supposedly "everybody" is equity, even though most of them have a fixed income) make about $300k initially.

That is a stunningly stupid comment for a Chairman of Anything. Presumably, Peter Kalis did not invest $150K in his 1978 J.D. If his remarkable lack of perspective (and tact) is any indication of how K&L treats its associates, I feel sorry for them. Mr. Kalis, do your firm a favor and STFU (ask your “credit card-waving first- and second-year associates” what it means old man)!

27 = subtle pepperdine troll lumping a school not even in the top 50 with two schools in the top 25...you are so sneaky.

Hey Pete, why don't you spend some time generating some business as opposed to flying around the world doing your empire building. You and K&L are to international law firms as Dennis Kozlowski and Tyco were to G.E.

Jackass.

I'm a first-year non-equity partner in a midwestern AMLAW 200 firm. My salary is in the $225-$250 range, but the cost of living out here is low.

As 23 notes, non-equity partner is a required stop at many (most?) firms that have the category. But I'm not worried at all about my job. Income partners are highly profitable because of the billing rates, as long as you can keep them grinding out billable hours.

33 - K&L is ran by a jackass.

K.Lo is a ho! K.Lo's gotta go!

what does this guy even mean by "credit card waving?"

and mr. chairman, do you really think it's good for your firm for you to be making insulting statements like this?

These pretzels are making me fifty-FIRSTY!!!

50, I assume he's referring to the idea that these snotty little brats have the audacity to use a corporate or personal charge card to further their business travel, and then expect the client to pay those costs associated with the provision of legal services.

Who do these kids, fresh out of law school, think they are that they deserve reimbursment for cramped coach class airline seats, crappy food, shitty lodging, and days on end away from the sort of 9-5, homebody existance that defines the life of the GC who is forced to approve their arrogant expensing?!

K&L Gates, what a shit firm.

NEP at Perkins Coie = $230,000 (including bonus).

I'm willing to bet that very few bills get diputed over travel expenses. Usually corporate travel policies are fairly transparent, and as long as the asscociate follows these policies the company paying really shouldn't care. Most of the time on the client end the travel is part of a package deal they cut with a specific airline or hotel anyway. I can see how a bill might be disputed over the number of associates sent out, or the number of hours billed to a specific matter. However, these are more issues with associate management by partners rather than so called reckless "credit card waving" associates.

41 summed Kalis up perfectly. I don't have the super-NYC bias like some people, but Kalis has gone from Shittsburgh, PA to self-promoting himself in every magazine as the new model for an international firm. He's no where near Baker Botts, much less White & Case or Magic Circle.

Can someone please explain to me the "pyramid scheme" theory as it relates to law firms?

Who knew the kdis were so defensive. They want to be overpaid and respected too? Not even professional whores make that demand.

what a rancid toilet

One. ONE managing partner is an idiot!

-Count Layoffula Impostor.

Whatever happened to Douche Patrol? Remember him -- he used to say, like, "55 -- YOU are a douche!" Where is he?

You people seem to be missing something quite substantial here - this clown went to WVU. What a piece of white trash. You can polish a turd with an Oxford and Ivy League degree, but at the end of the day you're still dealing with a turd. Of course he has no tact, he was likely born in a trailer and is something of new money.

Hey Kalis, your firm is a TTT.

It's too bad this post has gotten derailed by the credit card waving 1st and 2nd year associate comment. Obviously he intends to disparage the practices of firms other than his own (cost-cutting, value-adding) ttt firm.

Much more interesting is the question of what the correction means for service partners. On the one hand, these people cost the firms a lot of money, on the other hand, they do work that requires a level of sophistication, experience, and commitment that few associates can offer, and that the typical rainmaker simply doesn't gave time to offer to all if "his" clients. If these firms were *really* partnerships, the junior partners would inherit business that they scored big wins for, and the big dogs would settle for diminished PPP. Old-fasioned, maybe, but likely more sustainable in the long term.

Former NEP @ K&L Gates. Had a book and was paid well under $400K (bonus - low low low five figures). Math didn't work out so left. Decent firm, just not a place to cash out.

Did you know that Kalis and the chairman from Reed Smith grew up in the same small town in WV and their grandparents attend the same church? If you haven't noticed, the two have been trying to one-up each other in the market for the past 5 years. Nothing like being able to say you're top dog in PGH and tell your grandmother about it.

To all those whiney non-K&L first and second year associates who seem to think this is a reflection on K&Ls lower class years - it's not. He is talking about the business model of other firms.

Stop being so snooty and narrow-minded. That firm has a different business model, and it is doing pretty damn well. There's no mass laying off like at other firms and the place continues to grow (see recent merger talks).

I love the idea from many of these comments that someone who went to Yale should know better. You people are so hilarious. Really. Get a life.

66 = Peter Kalis

Eh, what about Paul Hastings?

Good post topic, Elie. NEPs are going to be feeling the pain these next couple of years.

62 - Rodge Cohen of S&C is from WV too. He, however, prepped in Massachusetts before Harvard/Harvard Law.

Rodge is also a genuinely decent human being -- at least as revealed by his public statements and comportment -- and his fundamental difference with Mr. Kalis on that point may explain the difference we see here more so than any educational varations.

66--no mass lay-offs, are there other lay-offs happening?

I'm a NEP at a midwestern based AMLAW 100 firm. Initial salary is roughly $300k, but it doesn't get much higher than that (FWIW, you get a % of the billings you bring in, but for most of us that amounts to a small fraction of our salary). NEP-ship is touted as a way to bring in business using the partner title en route to equity partnership. In reality, most of us will never see equity partnership, and that is just fine with a lot of us, since you do get a pretty decent salary, and there does not seem to be an "up or out" mentality at this firm -- so you could potentially spend the rest of your working years as a NEP here. The firm also saves some money, since NEPs pay self-employment taxes and other expenses that were once borne by the firm. On the flipside, you are stuck in a sort of law firm purgatory for several years, if not the rest of your career. Unless you are the relationship partner on at least $1 mil plus in revolving business, you have no shot at equity partnership. Compare and contrast with an "institutional client" white shoe firm that might elevate non-business generators who fit the mold. Each model has its upsides and downsides.

So what is a NEP making at a top firm based outside New York -- like Hogan, Covington, Orrick, MoFo, Sidley, Mayer, etc. Surely it must be more than the $230K (including bonus) at Perkins Coie (see comment 54). I've heard that there is sometimes a pay cut when you make NEP -- is that actually true?

When will firms start getting rid of no-business equity partners whose only claim to equity-hood is that their daddies were once upon a time frat buddies with the head of the partnership committee?

72, supposedly no associate layoffs have occurred. Definitely none in my office (one of the larger ones). Kalis does like to increase his profile, and he is in love with promoting that we have the right "platform" for the future provision of legal services. He likes to say, "history will prove us right; we are in a perfect position across three continents" blah blah blah very smart man, but very self-promoting! thinks his shit doesn't stink

NEP here, all I can say is Oy! you teenagers really think it's going to be a golden path for you to the corner office. Success involves hard work, talent, and LUCK. I'm glad to make 350K and have a wife and 2 beautiful kids. If you get all that plus a million more per year, good for you. I grew up in a trailer park (literally), and I consider myself fortunate. I hope I hang on to my gig. If not, me and my family will work it out some kind of way.

Peace.

77, depending on the demands on your time in exchange for that $350,000 a year, you may have a much better deal than most of the associates on here who make about that or less. You are fortunate, just not in the ways that you think.

78,

77 here. I've considered all the angles. I think I know what you mean. We've been careful with our money.

Seriously: I never thought as a kid, that someone like me could have been in the top 1%-plus of income. I do interesting work on interesting files. Maybe it won't last for my whole career if the economy goes bad- so what? It's been a beautiful ride. Sure, I've got problems with my firm. And I work really hard, and do a better job than almost everyone I work with. I wanted to make EP just like everyone else. But I'm happy with the money I make. Clients like me. If I lose my job, I'll move on and do the very best I can.

If I stopped working now, my family could live for 5 years without working. Who the hell else could say that?

I'm not bragging btw- at ALL. I know you all want more than this, as I once did. But I'm saying it ain't all bad. If you can go to Biglaw, do it. It's your chance to make the real money.

I've come to the conclusion that pretty much all large firms suck. I mean, what firm do people actually like? Debevoise?

65 again. 77, you came to the same conclusion I did. While making "partner" was great, you quickly realize that there really is no end to the rat race. I was quite content with my near $1m book and sub-$350k pay but unfortunately biglaw usually won't allow that kind of complancency. I would have been happy to stay indefinitely but I got tired of the pestering and left. Making slightly less now but have unbelievable amount of flexibility in my life.

You've got a good perspective on the situation and I hope it continues for you. Enjoy the kids.

The "credit-card waving" comment is such bullshit. It is irresponsible of him to perpetutate what is, essentially, a myth. Yes, junior associates are well-compensated, but the vast majority of us don't live high off the hog. Travel is also very bare bones for the vast majority of associates.

I've found that partners of a certain age group are completely ignorant (willfully or not) about the enormous debt load and inflation that present day law school graduates face. During a recent bonus discussion (the gist of which was the absence of bonuses), the head of our office said "So, I guess the associates won't be getting their Porsches this year" His tone revealed that he truly thought that our bonuses went toward luxury goods instead of loans, 401K, 529, whatever.

The salary is high if you're independently wealthy, but not quite as much otherwise.

This should silence the speculation that K&L Gates will opt not to renew certain non-equity partner contracts this year. It's important to have non-equity and senior associates around as the firm stands into the wind. Someone has to do the pissing in the wind.

$250K for NEP at Am-law 100? Why do I kill myself? That was my salary this year and I'll make more than that next year. Someone please tell me at least it will be a big pay raise.

$250K for NEP at Am-law 100? Why do I kill myself? That was my salary this year and I'll make more than that next year. Someone please tell me at least it will be a big pay raise.

84/85 -- I'm NEP in an amlaw 200, but my experience was what initially looked like a large raise, but in reality was mostly chewed up in more expensive health insurance, hefty taxes, and a mandatory retirement plan. The transition from associate to non quity partner is not a major jump to the bottom line, at least not in this tier of law firms. Different results may be obtained at bigger firms.

i knew a few people who were "counsel" at v10 firm who were promoted to full equity partner. weird.

Most NEPs get paid 300 or so at my v50 firm but those who are more valuable get more, sometimes much more. (Many NEPs have zero options to lateral, others - those with book - have a ton of places to go, especially in this market - guess who gets paid?)

What about of counsels or counsels, or whatever the firm calls them? Where do they stand on the pecking/paying order in relation to NEPs and are their gigs any safer?

"Non-equity partners at Kirkland make a good chunk of change."

I wouldn't count on a cash bonus this year. NEPs at K&E (and everyplace else) are at the bottom of the bonus waterfall--I wouldn't expect anything to be left.

'So what is a NEP making at a top firm based outside New York -- like Hogan, Covington, Orrick, MoFo, Sidley, Mayer, etc. Surely it must be more than the $230K "

Yes, in general, although there may be "partners" at any of those firms, working fulltime, who make only slightly more than a senior associate--all depends on individual circumstance.

Note that Sidley truly doesn't have a NEP tier, but any partner of any age might get only a small portion of total comp based directly on firm profits.

I have a position at a V10 firm that is an "alternative" to counsel and partner. The firm created the position about 9 years ago, and there are currently 21 or 22 people holding the position. The firm considers the position a "tenured" position. While the deals vary, many are similar to mine. Salary is 8th year associate pay, plus 20% (i.e., $348k) plus cost of living increases of 4-5% in years in which the associate salary scale is not increased. For bonuses, we get the 8th year associate bonus, plus a special bonus (this year, for me, it was half-skadden, plus $40k; last year it was bonus, plus special associate bonus, plus another special bonus of 85k). The best part; however, is the compensation in the form of time off. In my case, I have 50 vacation days (I know others who have 60 and take them as an annual 3 month paid leave of absence (with an adjustment to bonus for the extra 10 days. We get paid out for up to 25 vacation days, if they're not taken in a particular year (they don't roll forward)). In my opinion, with this deal, they can keep their equity partnership. And anyone who scoff's at this money or thinks of it as a non-career, really needs a reality check.

I have a position at a V10 firm that is an "alternative" to counsel and partner. The firm created the position about 9 years ago, and there are currently 21 or 22 people holding the position. The firm considers the position a "tenured" position. While the deals vary, many are similar to mine. Salary is 8th year associate pay, plus 20% (i.e., $348k) plus cost of living increases of 4-5% in years in which the associate salary scale is not increased. For bonuses, we get the 8th year associate bonus, plus a special bonus (this year, for me, it was half-skadden, plus $40k; last year it was bonus, plus special associate bonus, plus another special bonus of 85k). The best part; however, is the compensation in the form of time off. In my case, I have 50 vacation days (I know others who have 60 and take them as an annual 3 month paid leave of absence (with an adjustment to bonus for the extra 10 days. We get paid out for up to 25 vacation days, if they're not taken in a particular year (they don't roll forward)). In my opinion, with this deal, they can keep their equity partnership. And anyone who scoff's at this money or thinks of it as a non-career, really needs a reality check.

91/92,

I'm sold. What firm?

89 - I think it depends on the firm. I had a (young) law prof who had been Of Counsel, but he mainly did that between his job at DOJ and becoming a visiting prof, and then for 6 months before getting a tenure-track job. I'm guessing he just worked on appellate briefs for them. Other places its probably like permanent associate.

Anyone have any views on the headhunting firm Smythe Masterson & Judd? Had a conversation with someone there and they had some decent advice, but then in the same sentence started pushing White & Case, which just laid off 70 people and is pretty well known to be a pretty miserable place to work.

Anyone have any views on the headhunting firm Smythe Masterson & Judd? Had a conversation with someone there and they had some decent advice, but then in the same sentence started pushing White & Case, which just laid off 70 people and is pretty well known to be a pretty miserable place to work.

Anyone have any views on the headhunting firm Smythe Masterson & Judd? Had a conversation with someone there and they had some decent advice, but then in the same sentence started pushing White & Case, which just laid off 70 people and is pretty well known to be a pretty miserable place to work.

the AmLaw 200 chart provides PPP for non equity partners - check it out

43 - re: Jones Day, first year NEP comp. is much closer to $250K than to $300K, at least in the midwest offices (except perhaps Chicago). And the claim by the firm that all partners are equity partners is a sham. Fixed participation is just that - fixed. So if you exceed your hourly budget by, say, 500 hrs., your take as a NEP is $0. All the money the firm makes in excess of budget goes right into the pockets of equity partners.

Wait - it gets better. Even if your first year NEP salary is $250K, you will actually only get around $180K the first year in the form of a draw. But you still get to pay taxes on the full $250K. The rest of the money is distributed in 5 payments the following year. You can also count on about $10K extra in foreign taxes your first year, $10K for capital contribution (despite the fact you have no equity in the firm) and $6K for self employment tax. Plus, the firm quits paying for blackberry, CLE and bar association dues.

Because Jones Day NEPs are general partners in the firm (just like equity partners), they are subject to unlimited downside (malpractice exposure, etc.) but there is no upside when the firm does well.

Please note that Kalis was passing on the client view in his comment. He wasn't making the statement about his own first and second years, because, Lord knows, they're not permitted to wave around credit cards.

91/92 -- That is a very interesting post. But what are your hours like? And how can you make your hours target if you take your full vacation time (which is 2.5-3X the normal 20 days).

I am NEP at AmLaw 100, LA-based firm. Made $500k last year (inc. $150k bonus). Had a good year.

No layoffs at K&L? Hahaha! That is just because the firm, like its Chairman, is too tacky to admit that they have been doing stealth layoffs for well over a year now. From what I have heard, K&L has more pink-slip waving associates than credit card waving associates.

99 - what is the typical time frame between NEP and making equity partner at Jones Day?

104 - Equity p-ship is part of the black box. I know JD lawyers who have been partners for 6-7 years and still are not equity. In fact, some NEPs never become equity partners. And it is not unprecedent for equity partners to be demoted to NEP or even of counsel status. The majority of partners at Jones Day are NOT equity partners.

So was is the upside? That at JD, unlike at other firms, you actually have a decent shot at making partner?

91/92: What is the position ... of cousel? How do you hold yourself out to clients then disappear for 3 months. Sounds too good to be true.

Perfect example that Klgates is ran by an egomaniac douche bag! Avoid this firm at all cost.