firsty?

firsty?

This would never happen at Paul Hastings. Thank GOD I am a man and work at Paul Hastings.

Suck it, XX.

Elie would never turn down a free lunch.

Pls Hndle Thx is the best thing on ATL. Or at least the most entertaining. Bartleby Allusion=Epic. Much better than ANOTHER post about Half-Skadden bonuses. We get it.

Elie must not have seen that episode of The Office where Kelly blacklisted both Dwight and Jim for forgetting to attend her party several months earlier.

Women are catty like that.

Ha ha, Paul Hastings. Now that is funny. Keep em comin ATL.

Can we start a men's only club at the firm? How would that go over with the women at the firm?

Whoever wrote this note is not a woman or at least is not a very smart woman. All the men are commiserating with each just because they are men. If you hate the game, don't be a lawyer.

The best thing would be to go if you can do a decent job pretending you're having a good time.

The worst thing would be to go if your poor attitude will end up drawing a lot of negative attention from the other attendees.

The middle ground would be to continue to politely decline.

Female attorneys need a space where it is safe to cry and hug and all that chick stuff.

whoa. hit every gender stereotype you can there, Marin. not sure that women's groups generally gather to compare manicures and dish about the latest casserole recipe...

9 - the "men's only club" is called the Firm.

I love Bartleby the Scrivener.

14, you work at a men's only firm? Wow. Is the office in Riyadh?

16 - Don't pretend that your firm isn't mostly staffed by men. Don't pretend that you don't make sexually offensive "jokes" about the women attorneys and secretaries at your firm.

______________________________
From yesterday's comments:

"Why must this blog always portray secretaries in stockings bending over? It's degrading and inaccurate."

Because it's a male fantasy . . .and BIGLAW is mostly staffed by males.

Just accept the invite, and then 15 minutes before the meeting send out an email to the group backing out because of a last-minute project dumped on your desk by a partner (make sure the partner you name is NOT female). You can escape with ease AND have the whole group commiserate with you.

Women need this because they are not as smart as men, and are clearly less competent lawyers. Try and prove me wrong if you like, but until you can all act and behave as your male counterparts do, without needing some ridiculous support system, I'm 100% correct.

Suck it bitches!

17, last time I checked, a place that is "mostly staffed by men" (I also assume that you don't think secretaries count as staff) is not a "men's only club." The word 'only' does not mean what you think it means.

The NBA is mostly staffed by black athletes so that means it's a "blacks only club" right?

19 - Are you on your period?

The game is the game. Same as it ever was, same as it always will be.

The name is Nurse Ratched, Elie, unless you're making some flimsy Futurama reference.

this is for MARIN. i don't read this blog often, so i don't know if you're a woman, but i hope for your sake that you're not. i respect decisions to attend and decisions not to attend these types of events. However, i do not respect your miserable attempt at stereotyping . . . judy blume books and pictures of the hunk you're crushing on??? mothers trying to balance life, kids and working a "full time plus" job sometimes need the support and wisdom of others who have gone before them. they have far less time than you have for pictures of "hunks" and judy blume novels. get a clue.

Women cry and miscarry a lot. That is not very professional.

PH

Women would already rule the world except: WOMEN HATE OTHER WOMEN. It's true. Think about.

21 - Thanks for supporting my point.

24 - Then don't expect to be treated the same as men. If you need a boost, you're inferior.

XXX
OOO,

19

Kudos for the Bartleby reference. Was thinking about it before actually reading it.
I am not sure about this, but didn't Bartleby just adopt the fetal position at the end, instead of dying?

Dear Elie, Bartleby "preferred not to" eat and died of starvation. I don't think this is something that you can ever related to.

Men are better because we can reproduce without nine months of gestation.

Can snark be misogynistic?

To the OP-
Marin's advice is sound. These are usually just gossip sessions where people verbally vomit out the current petty concerns of their lives. Think of it as good training for dealing with the BS of firm life.

25=racist
27=racist

27 - if you claim not to need "support and wisdom," you're not superior, you're ignorant.

27 - if you claim not to need "support and wisdom," you're not superior, you're ignorant.

God forbid somebody should want to mentor you.

Is this really a big problem?
Dear Partner XX,
No, I won't be participating. Thanks for inviting me!
Sincerely,
Grumpy Associate

12 -- ... and strip down to their bra and panties for a tickle fight.

this would never have happened if palin were president

Elie, you are a ninny! Your failed literary allusion suggests that you only watched the movie. The name is "Ratched," Elie, not "Ratchet."

5- MysTTTal has NEVER turned down a free lunch. or a free breakfast, a free dinner, or a free afternoon rack of lamb.

17- you're an idiot. please go back to playing solitaire or arguing with your baby daddy on the phone or whatever we pay you secretaries to do.

24- it's called parody. get off of your insecure soap box

26- slightly inclined to agree

31- "verbally vomit"? you suck

32- you add no value

32: So what?

27

I would go to an all women meeting if one of the women looked like that chick on damages. Naked pillow fights and lesbian play always amuse me. Of course, I am a man. I also think the secretaries should be invited. I mean, after $100 for Christmas, I should get some mileage out of her.

Money can't buy me love- Beatles (Before Yoko Ono and Heather Mills) A new day has dawned. I gave the gift (I know, I know, no donative intent), now I want the love.

God, I think that I work with 24. Always going on about wisdom and balance. Guess what, toots, I don't get to see my kids as much as I would like to, either, but I don't use them as an excuse.

I wish men had mentor lunches at the firm. Then we could talk about sports and make testicle jokes. And possible poop jokes.

gotta agree with 35. if you don't want to go, don't go; but don't act like it's some sort of punishment.

39 trolls around the internet slinging insults at people to feel better about him/herself lol. talk about irony . . .

42 hates his kids. Someone report him to Child Services.

To women that actually attend these meetings: Do you ever discuss going ass-to-mouth?

42 - not sure where you read that i use my kids as an excuse. i simply said that some people appreciate the value of mentorship. i'm sorry you're so angry.

elie = bunches of lunches

I would actually appreciate more opportunities to get to know older people at my firm. As it is i just about NEVER talk to partners.

- Not a chick.

Having womens' only stuff only furthers the stereotype that you girls hate--that you don't belong, you can't face the firm life without help, you were brought over on slave ships and made to do manual labor, etc.

You knew what the legal profession was like before you signed up. If you didn't know, you should have known. Suck that gut in, wipe the mascara tears off your face, and either do the job without crying that its so hard or get out and become that house wife you've always wanted to be.

At least we here in Texas treat our women with respect. Y'all be surprised at the classiness we have here.

If Marin has said that at Black Law Affinity group lunches all they discuss is fried chicken and watermelon, there would be an uproar.

The only uproar here is against women in general. It just goes to show that women are the last insular group that is socially acceptable to bash and discriminate against.

I like the way you think, 18. If you are not comfortable dropping the "partner line," try the infamous "conference call" excuse; works like a charm.

51 (Mr. Toughguy): womens' is not a word, and you mean to say "it's so hard", not "its". Are you a lawyer, or a law student trying to ape what he thinks a lawyer is?

53, Hillary Clinton, is that you?

Love,
Barack Obama, President-elect

51- HIGHLY credited.

53- really? if we do anything less than celebrate every "women's initiative" and the like, we get nailed.
I thought the only acceptable group left to bash was the fats.

53: Actually, it's probably Christians.

And, the only reason no one would ever make those comments is out of fear of rioting and getting shot. Women cry when insulted. Blacks burn stuff and go wild. It's really a matter of preservation.

Buck up little darling.

51's post translated:

"Me get angry women speak. Me get angry women no lime me. Me want girlfrend. Me cry." *chest thumping*

53 - agreed

39, 42, 51, etc. - today is the first time i'm looking at this Web site and i plan to return to it whenever i doubt my chances of making partner. reading your comments reminds me that my competition is not as intense as i sometimes worry. i'm pleased to see that ignorance and stupidity abounds!!

59: But doesn't it burn that he'll be your boss soon?

Gigady!

Women in my firm have chocolate and champagne parties, you know, because that helps them do legal work and succeed in this white man's only world. But don't worry, I don't get invited to such things (or diversity events) and thus can pay for them by billing hours. Have a nice time ladies and people of color, don't worry, you're covered.

Of course, you're going to be just SHOCKED when I get paid more because my bonus was higher because I worked more hours. But of course, we're back to how women are just abused and paid less because white men are out to get them.

Yeah right, 57. I have never once in my life seen a white man "celebrate" a women's/ minority initiative. More like bitch and whine about how your life is so hard because you had the bad luck to be born as a (never discriminated against) white male, and then turn around and make discriminatory comments about whatever minority group it is. But, alas, the irony is beyond you.

I am so thankful that I am not black and not a woman. I am white and male. I like that.

Mark Wahlberg

19: 100% agreed!! You are the smartest person out of all people (men and women) who posted the comments.

32: It's called sexist, you moron. See? 19 is right, again.

Our firm has a similar shit called "women's initiative." They go out to dinner at fancy places every month (and some people travel from other offices just to have dinner in NYC) and spend our bonus money. One of the female associates actually suggested that they tackle a real women issue. She was quickly shot down and was told that the "women's initiative" prefers to stick with fancy dinners. The only initiative they have is to promote incompetent feminist bitches who flirt with old fat ugly male partners into the partnership.

It's about time women stop using sexuality to get ahead (or keep with the pace).

60, 63, etc-
I like the fact that you're my competition. Right or wrong, it will ensure that things don't change no matter what. The reality of life is that people who feel entitled to ANYTHING and will not fight tooth and nail are going nowhere fast.
-57 (your future supervising partner)

66 - you don't read well. who said they feel entitled?

Pls Hndle Thx: I drew my cousin and her husband in my family's secret santa drawing. They are both thirty year-old 4th-year V20 associates in NYC. I, on the other hand am a 2L in the middle of finals with neither the time for aimless browsing nor the funds for the kind of sexy toys Biglaw associates can afford.

Can any of you recommend a gift they might like that isn't too expensive? I'm thinking the $100-$200 range. Could be either separate gifts or a joint gift for both of them.

Thanks!

Just go and order twatwaffles for lunch. You won't ever have to go again. Promise.

please, 51. having "women's only" stuff is a means to find parity in access to partners and clients (at least at my firm).

when the women associates are asked to attend golf outings, drinks/dinner and the like with partners and clients at the same rate as the men are, then there may not be a need to build the kind of networking structure that the guys have historically benefitted from.

and of course we knew what the profession was like when we started -- roughly 50% men/50% women at the junior associate level; roughly 84% men/16% women at the equity partner level.

i see no problem with working to change those numbers through targeted efforts, like women's groups.

(source: http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2008/11/17/women-in-biglaw-pounding-against-the-glass-ceiling/)

Hey, Marin. My wife belongs to two book clubs and knits as a hobby. She's also a very successful and highly-respected professional. Maybe if you stopped denigrating other people's choices out of a smug, yet undeserved sense of superiority you might accomplish something with your life other than flunking out of biglaw and losing writing competitions to people who are barely fluent in English.

It's amazing how women can be more sexist than men sometimes. Marin, you suck. How do you know they want to knit or talk about work-life balance?

19, you are stupid. Women and others who understand the value of support systems are taking over the world. You can say you need to do it all by yourself, but who's going to help you out when your ass gets laid off? Let me guess, your wife or girlfriend? Your family? Your friends? Hmm, sounds like a support system to me.

And if you don't want to go to the lunches, don't go. Or, better yet, bring a man with you when you go to make a point. Preferably a gay man.

32 - do you mean sexist? Wow!

58 - totally right

OP - you're a self-absorbed idiot.

Marin - Judy Blume??? Do adult women read Judy Blume? My sister read her books in elementary school...

Is it sad that I missed the Bartleby reference, but got the Lion King reference? Having children really messed with your brain.

d'oh

*my* brain

-73

72: You ignorant slut. Your very analogy is faulty. I don't bring my wife and kids to meetings with me. I'm all for a support system consisting of family and friends. That's expected. But what women want is special treatment at work . . .hence, women only parties, conferences, etc. That's on top of the friends and family that men have. Therefore, if you need something additional to succeed, you're inferior.

Thanks for trying honey.

19

72 -

Whatever it is you are smoking...lay off of it for a while. It's got your mind all F'd up.

Geez the commenters on ATL are a bunch of misogynistic male pricks. For what it's worth, we usually discuss business and office politics at these meetings. And also how to take those misogynistic assholes at the firm down a peg or two. So if you get slammed by secretarial staff not supporting you, or female associates being too busy to help after one of these meetings, you've been tagged.

19:
72, here. Again, you are stupid. And you think using ignorant insults makes you somehow seem more intelligent. Men do have support systems at work. And they do have exclusive, men's only clubs whether they call them that or not. Golf tournaments and beer parties are men's clubs by another name. Men have work mentors all the time.
If you actually read what I wrote, you would see that I don't think there is any reason for the lunch group to be women only. That's just as exclusionary as a something that is men only or white only. But, support systems happen all over the place. Including in the work environment. You did not get where you are with no support. Someone took the time to mentor you. Someone took the time to write you a recommendation to get into law school. Someone gave you advice about where to apply for a job.
Most women do not want special treatment. They would be perfectly happy is everyone had a mentor.
You are just kidding yourself if you think that you never had one. Or, you are a sad, sad individual that probably hates your job.

72: it was a SNL ref. Get a clue. All the things you listed have been offered to women as well. So why do they need special groups and alone time on top of that? My point is, they don't. They are either equal or inferior and need a special leg up. There's no way around it.

Golf tournaments and beer parties? What the fuck firm do you work at . . . and do they have openings? In my experience the male partners go out of their way to work with female associates. Whether it's out of fear, sex, or otherwise . . . who knows. Stop feeling pity for yourself, and act like an adult.

19:
72, here. Again, you are stupid. And you think using ignorant insults makes you somehow seem more intelligent. Men do have support systems at work. And they do have exclusive, men's only clubs whether they call them that or not. Golf tournaments and beer parties are men's clubs by another name. Men have work mentors all the time.
If you actually read what I wrote, you would see that I don't think there is any reason for the lunch group to be women only. That's just as exclusionary as a something that is men only or white only. But, support systems happen all over the place. Including in the work environment. You did not get where you are with no support. Someone took the time to mentor you. Someone took the time to write you a recommendation to get into law school. Someone gave you advice about where to apply for a job.
Most women do not want special treatment. They would be perfectly happy is everyone had a mentor.
You are just kidding yourself if you think that you never had one. Or, you are a sad, sad individual that probably hates your job.

19:
72, here. Again, you are stupid. And you think using ignorant insults makes you somehow seem more intelligent. Men do have support systems at work. And they do have exclusive, men's only clubs whether they call them that or not. Golf tournaments and beer parties are men's clubs by another name. Men have work mentors all the time.
If you actually read what I wrote, you would see that I don't think there is any reason for the lunch group to be women only. That's just as exclusionary as a something that is men only or white only. But, support systems happen all over the place. Including in the work environment. You did not get where you are with no support. Someone took the time to mentor you. Someone took the time to write you a recommendation to get into law school. Someone gave you advice about where to apply for a job.
Most women do not want special treatment. They would be perfectly happy is everyone had a mentor.
You are just kidding yourself if you think that you never had one. Or, you are a sad, sad individual that probably hates your job.

72: Can the cupcakes of the sweet honey committee help support your posting skills? You need some help.

I think I might be officially done with ATL. Who are these people? No wonder everyone hates lawyers. You are all a bunch of unfunny douchebags. If you want to be offensive and shocking, that's fine. But at least try to be witty about it.

Lots of jaded women in this thread. Sorry you haven't found a man!

84, you're so hilarious. Tell us more.

After 10 years in a firm, I'm plenty jaded. And reading threads like this makes me more so. The man in my life ensures that I don't think all men are condescending pricks.

86: Just because she's butch doesn't make her a man.

80, a woman, if she were so inclined, can play golf or drink beer. Did you ever go to college or watch a sports channel, or news about sports? The fact that you personally are not inclined toward those activities does not make them "men only." Equality of opportunity is all that is necessary; you are not entitled to equality of results.

If a firm has a book club and only women join, is that the women's fault? Should we offset it with a genuinely men-only outing?

Why can't these blog 'conversations' ever be intelligent?

MATURE insight, please? If you have a JD, don't you think you should act bearing in mind you are bound to display ethical behavior? Maybe CLE is in order for some here- call it "Integrity."

-disgusted reader

Lol @ fat bitches in this thread

Fat, ugly, single, 40, menopausal, and an angry biglaw bitch is no way to go through life, sweethearts!

Lol @ fat bitches in this thread

Fat, ugly, single, 40, menopausal, and an angry biglaw bitch is no way to go through life, sweethearts!

86 - this is a typical response from an insecure woman. "My man is so wonderful." No he's not. There probably is no man in your life. If there is, feel confident in the fact that as he's stringing you along with promises of marriage some day, he's putting the stones to some chick on the side.

Trust me, every associate claims they have this wonderful man. If they really did, we wouldn't have this post. Unless of course, "man" is code for ice cream. In which case I say to you . . .food isn't love.

90 - shut up and get back to your internet porn. I'm sure you're super hot and get all the ladies.

The question is just naive. Never pass up a major opportunity to schmooze with or surveil your colleagues, even if they are obnoxious idiots, especially if they include partners.

I think the issue is that she does not want to be marked as a weakling complainer by the male partners and associates. If she thinks acting like one of the guys is going to keep her from being marked a "breeder" as one senior associate I knew liked to say, in mixed company, in the office, she is fooling herself.

90 - highly credited

The women in this thread are pathetic. Maybe if you weren't so catty, you'd have the same de facto boys clubs we men have.

We men can get along with each other. We don't snip. We hang out and have a good time without being miserable curs. We don't need to beg other men to hang out with us, or knit or read stupid books. We *want* to hang out with each other.

There's a reason men are on top. Despite our reputation, we know how to cooperate.

Lots of beefaloes roaming ATL's comment section.

Keep munchin', you miserable fatties!

96 - perhaps you should examine your need to degrade women. Was mommy mean to you?

98 - My mom was great. She wasn't a barren BigLaw beefalo.

98: His or yours?

I love how easy it is to strike a nerve with biglaw "women."

It's not even a challenge with the stereotypes are true. Find a mirror and try to disagree.

Everyone is totally missing the point of the female get-togethers. It is not really about being "women" and supporting each others' work-life balance, but rather getting to know each other and building up loyalties among the women lawyers so we can do business together. Build relationships = get billable work done. Go and schmooze with the other women and the work will come to you. Women have been overlooked for a long time and so if we can build our own little sorority and keep some of the work to ourselves, why wouldn't we?

Same deal with all these other specialized groups. If you fit in several of these categories (gay, minority, women, etc.), go to them all!!!

White straight men, you are SOL on this networking tactic, but you've been running the show forever, so wah. We figured out what the golf club and hunting outings are really all about.

this is unreal. except that it's totally not. the misogynistic opinions and attitudes expressed here (with sheer malevolance, no less) pretty much sum up why new york law firms are terrible places to work. you guys suck. but then you already knew that.........we all did. tks, boys.

102- your comments are a case study in why the equal rights amendment failed.

everyone else- please stop being so insecure

102, so it's ok to segregate and exclude those who don't look like you by keeping work for yourselves, since people who do look like you were once excluded? Two wrongs make a right? Robert Mugabe, is that you?

Amen, sister 102.

88: 70 here (not 80). i'm a woman. i play golf, i drink beer, i follow professional sports. my colleagues and clients know it; i've had some great conversations about sports and golf with both partners and clients.

but neither i nor any of my female colleagues are invited to join the guys who jaunt off on a friday afternoon for a round with the partners/clients.

i'm not sure if it's discomfort on the part of those who decide who gets the invite -- generally meaning the well-established male partners setting these things up -- or if it's an assumption that i (or my female colleagues) would not be comfortable in such settings.

either way, the way to address the problem --- and it is a problem, when you're a junior/midlevel associate trying to develop client development skills/a strong mentoring relationship who's repeatedly excluded from the many types of circumstances that have historically helped young professionals develop these skills/relationships while your male colleagues are taken in hand and given every opportunity to do so --- is not to bitch and moan about it (oo! i used the "b" word), but to make efforts to create such networks via different avenues, with the help of women in positions of power who have come up through the ranks at a similar disadvantage.

it would be fantastic if efforts to overcome the basic inequity in opportunity between associate-level men and women in BigLaw were more akin to a book club than a means of developing skills/relationships that are essential to a respectable practice. but we're not there yet (as this comment thread pretty clearly reflects).

Amen, sister 102.

105: Why *do* all the black kids still sit together in the school cafeteria? Just saying... We all find a feeling of safety among our own kind in this big cruel world.

86 here: Partner at BigLaw, married to a wonderful guy, have kids. Suck it.

The insecure men on this list are sad. I'm with 98. All the hate against women probably means Mommy thinks you aren't successful enough, and you're afraid of having to compete with women.

109, because sitting with white people too often would be "acting white," which is frowned upon.

86/110: Sure you are. Blogs are wonderful, aren't they.

Love,

Derek Jeter (or any other person you think is enviable)

65, are you at Mayer Brown in NY? If you are, what's the fat ugly partner doing now that the bitch has gone to Latham?

112 - blogs are wonderful. Gives guys like you an outlet to spew your venom. I bet the women in your life would be thrilled to know what you've been up to here.

*jizzes in pants*

114: Unlike the imaginary man in your life, I don't have to kowtow to women . . .so there really is no problem.

Now stop wasting time on this blog. The man you work for was kind enough to hire you, and between blogging and maternity leave you're not producing. Give something back.

116 - eat a bag of dicks

117: In America we call them franks. And, unlike you fatty, I cannot eat an entire package of them.

Oh yeah, well, I had sex with your wife!

Sigh. You see, Marin and Elie, THIS is how you write an amusing advice column for lawyers:

http://www.law.com/jsp/law/careercenter/lawArticleCareerCenter.jsp?id=1202426638508&rss=newswire

Sigh. You see, Marin and Elie, THIS is how you write an amusing advice column for lawyers:

http://www.law.com/jsp/law/careercenter/lawArticleCareerCenter.jsp?id=1202426638508&rss=newswire

This is a response to those complaining about womens and diversity events.

I don't know about womens events, but being a man of color, I have attended my firms diversity events numerous times. The events are designed to be social in nature and try and make diverse employees feel welcome in a corporate law environment that has traditionally been hostile to non-white lawyers.

Even today, there are times when minorities are subtlely made to feel like they don't belong (I'm not saying this is deliberate on the part of white attorneys - but you can feel it when you're not very welcome, or if you are the only minority in the room). For an example of what it feels like, white attorneys just need to go spend some time in an area where only minorities hang out - and then see if they subtlely notice that they don't always quite fit in the same as everyone else.

The diversity events are not "affirmative action" events in the sense of helping people get ahead despite lower skills etc. They are aimed at ensuring that minorities are not held down by the glass ceiling that has been so pervasive in the legal profession. Firms are just trying to make sure a talented minority attorney doesn't get prevented from reaching their potential. This isn't at the expense of anyone (but it really irks under-qualified white attorneys who are used to having life handed to them on a platter).

Unfortunately white attorneys always complain about diversity events. The funny thing is that if you invite them, they complain about any mention of minority issues, but if don't invite them then they complain about exclusivity. They haven't faced discrimination in the same way minorities have and don't face any prospect of a glass ceiling (I'm mainly talking about the men, though I've ironically heard white females complain about minority events while still going to womens events). Their attitudes - which make minorities feel less welcome - are more of a reason to have diversity events.