.

yes

No, I am FIRST!

Marin > Elie

Don't call. You won't look good.

Yes, but do you hear the people sing? Singing a song of angry men? It is the music of a people who will not be slaves again! When the beating of your heart echoes the beating of the drums there is a life about to start when tomorrow comes!

Marin = TTT

"which door will lead me to heaven" is not a Yes/No question....Damn I thought this was MysTTTal at first, cmon now

Oh god, Les Mis reference.

"The sad reality is that whether or not your firm rescinds your offer is a decision that is completely out of your hands. Things are bad all over and it'll get worse before it gets better.

You should probably call..."

This piece of advice was headed to coherence and then, at the last minute, managed to crash and burn into the familiar mountain of Elie stupidity.

Marin didn't sound as hot in this post as she usually does.

:(

I actually thought this post was a good balance of being funny and also giving out some useful advice. Seriously folks, do not call your firm and ask if they plan to rescind your offer--why would you?

"The two doors are guarded by three sentries. One of them always lies, one of them always tells the truth, and one of them stabs people who ask tricky questions. Choose your words carefully."

Marin, post a pic please.

I'm starting to like Marian more than Elie. Well, I *always* liked Marian more than Elie, but I was on board with the "give him time to settle in" mentality (i'm not a hater, ya'll.) I believe I am now a hater. Elie just isn't getting it. This post, by contrast, was a nice combination of substance and snark.

Unfortunately, there is no opposing door guardian to ask the correct question: "Which door would the other guardian tell me to take?" [The Angel will tell you truthfully, and point to the hell door; the Devil would lie about what the Angel would say and points to the hell door. Then you take the other one.]

Here, you cannot ask the recruiter, "If Skadden was considering revoking my offer, what would they do?"

Also, the story is typically told without the yes/no requirement. The guardians can actually speak in clear sentences, unlike some recent posters.

Stupid to call. You have no control over the firm's decision so Que Sera Sera - Whatever will be, will be.

#16 - Is the devil obligated to lie? Couldn't he be crafty and tell the truth - pointing to the heaven door?

# 18, # 16 here. See # 13. Traditionally, the story is told that one always lies and one always tells the truth, thus creating a logic puzzle. The way it was told here is without logic and finesse.

I miss Lat.

I'm pretty sure that hell involves being the copy editor for Elie's posts. Worse than the torments of Sisyphus, that is.

I hath seen hell, and it is here.

I seriously doubt any firm would revoke offers already made to summer associates from the prior summer class, unless the firm total collapse is imminent and it must do something dramatic like cutting loose incoming associates. The bottom line is that the incoming associate doesn't cost the firm anything until he starts working, so there is no benefit from firing him.

I find it strangely appropriate that Marin's column is always accompanied by a pic of a secretary's notepad. Way to butcher a metaphor while pedantically explaining it to an audience which heard it in about the fourth grade.

21 - Or, a firm may not want to be seen as retracting offers right before the start date. A retraction now gives people nearly a year to start looking.

18 - you're a moron. read the premise of the riddle.

16 - also a moron, but not quite as much as 18.

if you ask the angel "which door would the [devil] tell me to take," then the angel will point at the door to heaven. Because, if you did ask the devil "which door should I take?" then he will point to the angel's door, not to his own.

To satisfy your premise, you must instead ask the question "which door does the other guardian WANT me to take?" This gets at his intentions, and not at what he SAYS.

However, in the end, you're still not asking a yes/no question, as submitted in the article.

Both Fail.

Calling to ask if you will be fired is a terrible thing to do. I really can't believe that Elie recommended that.

Elie--do you actually TRY to be crap?

The truth of the matter is that recruiters don't know anything. The decision to fire or rescind comes from the management committee. Recruiting isn't going to have that information until they are actually calling lawyers/students.

21 - I don't doubt firms will revoke incoming offers. I'd be surprised if they haven't already started doing it.

24 - The Article is the fail, not my logic. Yes/no was never part of the original puzzle. Though I could say "Is this the door the other guardian would tell me to take?" and then your stupid objection is null.

A. The Devil will tell you take the door to Hell, because he wants you to go there. If you ask the Angel (who knows which guardian is which) what the other guardian will tell you, the Angel will tell you (the truth) that the Devil will point to the door to Hell.

B. The Angel wants to point to the door to Heaven, because she wants you to go there. If you ask the Devil which door the Angel will tell you to take, since he is required to lie (under the original puzzle), he will point to his own door, because the Angel would tell you to take the Heaven door, and the Devil will lie to you about that.

C. Since both situations point you to the door to Hell (behind which must lie the law school you go/went to), you take the opposite one.

D. You're an idiot for trying to point out idiocy.

#16 - B.A. in B.S. (Philosophy). Working at a doctorate in B.S. (at a T5 school).

Elie = TTT

Punk'd reference- hilarious. well done!

Punk'd reference- hilarious. well done!

27 - "The Angel will tell the truth and the Devil will lie" - What is so hard to understand about this?

In case none of you have noticed, the purpose of having Elie chime in after the jump is that he has to recommend something OTHER than what Marin says, usually the opposite. HTH

Here is a logic puzzle:

Ellie writes "You should probably call..."

Was this:

1) Yet another typo, and he meant "do NOT call" and screwed up yet again (sigh).

or

2) He actually gave the advice to call, and is an idiot for giving such awful advice

or

3) He actually gave the advice to call, knowing it was bad advice, and just wants to screw with you which makes him an ass.

Tricky stuff.

Oh, and #13, that was pretty funny. Well done.

27 is the dumbest post I have seen on here in weeks.

#27: Reread your point (A)- if the devil wants to go to hell, and he is required to lie, then if he was asked which door he wants you to go into, then he will point to heaven.

"Because, if you did ask the devil "which door should I take?" then he will point to the angel's door, not to his own."

24, if the devil tells you to take the angel's door, he's really not much of a devil, huh?

Got thought?

HAHAHAHA LOL I LOVE PLS HNDLE THX THERE ALWAYS SO HILAREOUS HAHAHAHAAH BOY THEESE SURE ARE FUNY!!!!! LOLOLOLOLOL

"Because, if you did ask the devil "which door should I take?" then he will point to the angel's door, not to his own."

24, if the devil tells you to take the angel's door, he's really not much of a devil, huh?

Got thought?

Even if you DO call, which is a horrible idea, you think they would tell anything substantial to a 3L??? Please. "Oh yeah, we barely know you, but don't tell anyone OK, but our firm is doing really poorly and we're rescindnig offers. This information, if it gets out, could hurt us with our existing clients, you know, the ones who pay us. So don't tell anyone. This'll be our little secret."

Schmuck.

21:

I am a 2002 top 20 law grad who had an offer that was revoked (they sent a lettter to our entire summer class the day after the bar exam ended).

As to the inquiry: There is nothing you can do to predict it and any efforts to contact the firm will get you nowhere and will not exectly start you off in everyone's good graces. No firm is going to tell a summer- "Well we were going to wait to tell you, but since you called..." Either way, and especially if they are not in a position where they will be revoking offers, they will be insulted and annoyed. If it happens, pound the pavement like never before...it will take time, but you will find something. I did....eventually.

yeah, 36, i do. it's called the premise of the puzzle, which is that the devil must lie.

it's not my place to judge the devil. but it is my place to point out inconsistencies in people's logic who scored in the 40th percentile on the logic portion of their LSATs. see, e.g., 27.

35 - If you ask them not which one they want you to go in to, but "Which door should I take?", the underlying assumption is that you should take the door to Heaven. So when the devil is asked this question, he will lie, and point to his own door.

This is a rather simple logic puzzle that seems to have most everyone confused... Go back to studying or doc review or whatever other mindless task you're engaged in.

This question is the direct result of v50 firms hiring so heavily out of the top couple of schools. So you made a few points higher on the lsat... thats great. But those few points do not make up for your total lack of social intelligence.

I will now answer the question you will be asking ATL in about 6-8 years. No. That is the answer. The question, of course, is will you make partner. I sense a great sense of professional failure in your future.

A better idea than calling recruiting is to reach out to those associates at the firm that you connected with over the summer (presuming this in fact did occur). Depending on your comfort level with them, put out some feelers as to how the firm is faring and whether people in your potential practice group are busy.

41, if the devil must lie, and you ask him "what door should I take" then he points to his own door. Get it?

/s/

36

Saw Marin at the ATL happy hour at Professor Thom's - all I can say is HOTTER THAN KASH. Marin - call me and be sure to wear those red heels when we meet up.

40:

You missed 21's point. You got punk'd the same way he is implying. The firm will wait to revoke until the last possible moment. There's nothing to gain from telling the incoming class now.

With that in mind, I think the best advice is to break in late at night, Watergate style.

Remember: all the clerks who are now getting told not to show up were once told their jobs were safe. No reason to ask; the firm will only lie.

Backdoor for the win!

You are all idiots.

The answer is to ask each to point to the door that they came out of. They both will point to heaven.

I dont have a doctorate or philosophy degree, but Im also not an idiot.

You are all idiots.

The answer is to ask each to point to the door that they came out of. They both will point to heaven.

I dont have a doctorate or philosophy degree, but Im also not an idiot.

Jesus, 41, what's so hard about this.

A Truths.
D Lies.

You want to go to Heaven.

Ask A, "I want to go to heaven, which door will D tell me to take?" A points to Hell door.

Ask D, " I want to go to heaven, which door will A tell me to take?" D points to the Hell door.

Choose the other door. Which is what I should have done by leaving this one alone.

16, 27, 42, and whatever Fing number this is. Wikipedia the stupid dilemma if you don't believe me, this is how it plays out.

Remember: all the clerks who are now getting told not to show up were once told their jobs were safe. No reason to ask; the firm will only lie.

48 nailed it.

Accepting a clerkship offer these days is a damn big risk.

You know that part about you don't have to accept your firm offer until you are done clerking, and how nice it is for them to keep that offer open? They can also close it, and these days, may be likely to do so.

Good luck.

50 - that would work in this version. The atheist version doesn't tie the guardians to the things behind the door. You're just told that the lying guardian is in front of door of death (like a pit of sharks with lasers), and the truthful guardian is in front of the door that leads to your escape and safety. In which case, you can't ask that question.

But I like it... Its like peeling the stickers off the rubik's cube and putting them back together. Outside the box.

Don't call. That is insane! Why even give them an opportunity to be like, "Yes, as a matter of fact, we will be rescinding your offer"? Makes no sense!!

47:

I didn't miss the point that they will wait until the last minute. I merely pointed out that firms have, in fact, cut incoming classes- something 21 asserted would not happen unless an implosion was imminent and that there is essentially nothing you can do about it.

41, it's LSAT not LSATs (you have no idea whether he took more than one)

ELIE, for the love of God, the word for an islamic cleric is spelled "IMAM".

Are you ignorant, stupid, or both?

My money's on option number three.

a 3L and his mother were driving in a car when it was hit by a tanker truck. The mother died instantly and the 3L was transferred to the hospital. When the firm that had hired the 3L found out about this, they told the head of legal recruiting to notify him that his job offer was rescinded. Upon arriving at the hospital, the legal recruiter saw the 3L and said "I can't fire this boy, he is my son."

How is this possible?

57, some firm might have done it, but I doubt it is a reputable one

Caller: Hi, I'm a 3L and, even though I haven't heard anything bad about the firm just yet, wanted to call and ask if you still plan on allowing me the privilige to be a monkey drone first year associate come next fall.

Firm rep: Well, we had every intention to, but since you're such a fucking tool for calling and asking - no soup for you. NEXT.

13 has the credited response.

60 -

ZOMBIE LEGAL RECRUITER!! AAAAAAH!

60: the recruitment director is his birth mother and gave him up for adoption; he was adopted by the woman who died in the crash.

60: the recruitment director is his birth mother and gave him up for adoption; he was adopted by the woman who died in the crash.

60 -- a good riddle in it's true form, but alas, just doesn't work as well here. (except for the Zombie legal recruiter version, which rocks!)

PS: normally, the riddle is...oh, well, if you don't already know it, don't worry.

I think it'd be more helpful to contact a trusted associate in confidence and ask him or her if they think you should look for something else for next fall. As demonstrated by firm after firm, HR/Recruiting will tell everybody that everything's fine right up until the firm's doors close. I had a summer associate who was my mentee call me and ask if she should start looking and I told her yes b/c I'd heard rumblings that the firm wasn't doing so well (it's since dissolved).

60: the recruiter is his father?

64 seems like someone I'd hang out with
65 seems to get it, but just isnt that creative
67 seems like someone that is annoying to have around because s/he doesn't get jokes and probably talked too much in law school

YES, 69 for the win!

Thank you.

And unlike 67, who didn't get the twist, 60's riddle was a brilliant twist on the original, that worked with the exact opposite gender assumption.

Love it!

(of course, the reality is that while doctors can be male or female, a male legal recruiter? Just doesn't happen)

Does Marin give good head?

Isn't Les Miserables a Broadway hit about unhappy female homosexuals?

I don't mean to be depressing but the last time we had a recession, I called the firm where I had an offer as a 3L and they assured me everything was fine and they couldn't wait to see me. In fact, the took me out to lunch later that week to stress their enthusiasm...and then called me 2 weeks later to tell me my offer had been revoked. I found out the same day my 16 student loan statements came in the mail. I pray this doesn't happen to you but you may want to dust off your resume just the same.

I don't mean to be depressing but the last time we had a recession, I called the firm where I had an offer as a 3L and they assured me everything was fine and they couldn't wait to see me. In fact, the took me out to lunch later that week to stress their enthusiasm...and then called me 2 weeks later to tell me my offer had been revoked. I found out the same day my 16 student loan statements came in the mail. I pray this doesn't happen to you but you may want to dust off your resume just the same.

I totally have a gentile crush on Marin. I totally want to help her dress up Perry and make sure she keeps her O(prah)rganization going and would probably even convert for her. The self-deprecating ones are always the best in the sack, too...

I have a jewish crush on Marin. Oy.

52 - But isn't the devil supposed to be a tricky character? It's a given that he might lie, but he knows that you know that he might lie. So maybe he'll point to the door to Heaven, assuming that you'll assume he's lying, and then HA!

I dunno. Either way, I'm pretty sure intelligent humans stopped believing in heaven and hell sometime during the Dark Ages.

As to calling your firm's Recruitment, this whole thing is overblown. First of all, Recruitment is not going to whine to partners that you called (partners have too much else to worry about than you). Second of all, if the firm was considering rescinding your offer, Recruitment would probably not even know about it until the last minute.

Sort of like intelligent people quit being incredibly greedy and self serving in the Dark Ages? Oh wait. The people who comment at ATL are probably intelligent. But they are also incredibly greedy and self serving? Cognitive dissonance rules. Maybe intelligent people don't all have to agree with me or with 3:39. Maybe intelligent people can disagree about things.

79 -- referring to time stamps is soooo passe....

79 - The intelligent and greedy people in the Dark Ages were busy convincing other people to believe in heaven and hell.

52 - thank you for pointing out the simple riddle that's got all the lawyers confused... evidently law school is poor preparation for any kind of creative thought... who knew

ask and ye shall receive - if you ACCEPTED an offer for a permanent position, they're not going to fire you before you start. the offers that we've all been hearing about being rescinded are from people who are dilly dallying and waiting too long to ACCEPT. now, your job might not be secure if (a) your firm tanks or (b) you're going into business & finance next year and the economy, after you start, is still looking bad.... but barring your firm going bankrupt in the next few months, i'd say you're STARTING TO WORK THERE is pretty much a given.

on yeah, and CHILL OUT AND ENJOY YOUR 3L YEAR.

82 -- I can't chill out!

I have been programmed to succeed in law school, and do better than my peers by shunning fun and staying home to study. Now it has become a part of my life, and I can't just let it go. I wish I could.

I think Marin effed up that riddle....

It can't be a yes/no question. You will never pick the right door if that is the case.

I'm in charge of summer recruiting for my law firm. We have 20 slots but had 25 offers accepted. So we wait for someone to call and ask if they still have a job, and then say "no" and cross them off.

We're only are over by 3 now. So please call.

I'm in charge of summer recruiting for my law firm. We have 20 slots but had 25 offers accepted. So we wait for someone to call and ask if they still have a job, and then say "no" and cross them off.

We're only are over by 3 now. So please call.

Elie, I don't usually hate on you, but your advise in this column is always so bad. What the fuck is wrong with you?