Evan, I'm a 2L at a T-14. I am beyond sold on the benefits of moving overseas. I will be at NYC Big Law this summer; how long until I should get in touch with you?

2, Evan here. Feel free to get in touch with me any time re discussion of possible Asia markets in your future, as well as how you should handle your summer program. Re when you should consider a potential move to Asia, at the earliest that would be at the tail end of your first year as an associate (unless you can snag a position in Asia while in law school, through OCI). I have been absolutely swamped with emails lately and just coming off a vacation, so it may be a week or two before I am able to respond to all the emails from law students I get.

Evan, I'm a 2L at a T-5. I am beyond sold on the benefits of moving overseas. I will be at NYC Big Law this summer; how long until I should get in touch with you?

Evan, I'm a 2L at a T-1. I am beyond sold on the benefits of moving overseas. I will be at NYC Big Law this summer; how long until I should get in touch with you?

Evan, this NYT articles mentions Abu Dhabi and Doha several times. Perhaps you could do a post re: the legal landscape in those two places, or how living and working there differs from Dubai.

Why are their two Asia recruiters on here now?

I liked having one to keep me up on stuff but two seems stupid. Kinney wasn't smart enough to get exclusivity when they signed their deal with ATL? Way to drop the ball and get me annoyed at y'all.

Way to bash your staff

Evan, could you give a rundown of basic aftertax salaries given the above in some of the big markets, like Tokyo, HK, Singapore...?

Interesting that we can't comment on post by Cypress. Like "this sucks, tell us something we don't already know, *yawn*, etc..."

7, Evan here. The Cypress post was a one off thing as I understand it, and a direct advertisement, not a series of informational posts about to begin, so don't worry. When we started Asia Chronicles we did not know that a competitor would put so much of their advertising budget around our posts. We find it a bit flattering, in general. This one off post links to a NY Times article we are pictured and quoted in, so can't complain really. All kidding aside, we are having a lot of fun with the AC and that is why we do it, (and will continue indefinitely) as we still make most of our placements from referals, rather than advertising. I am confident I have made more placements in Asia alone in '08 than Cypress has made in whole, but they are a fine recruiting firm and are especially competitive in the Tokyo market (not so much in HK / China).

9, Evan here. It is 5am here in HK and I have to get some sleep before a 9am meeting, so I will get back to you on after tax comp figures tomorrow.

6, Evan here. Sure we can do that. I will be in Dubai in January so will probably focus the posts back towards Middle East then. I can tell you that in general, Abu Dhabi and Doha are much more quieter and sleepier towns than Dubai. I find it in general hard to sell unmarried and single young associates in Dubai on going to Abu Dhabi or Doha. Getting families out of Dubai for those places can be tough too. Doha has a lot more culture than Dubai though.

Are housing costs coming down at all in HK / China, due to global downturn? If so, do you think firms will consider lowering expat packages?

14, Robert here. Evan's off at some meetings this morning. Although we have not discussed this internally or (to my knowledge) with any of our clients, it is entirely possible, indeed probably, that housing packages could be lowered by some firms. Last month I was in a discussion with the MP of one firm who told me that, because of the deflation in Hong Kong, his firm could well lower salaries across the board. That firm, to be clear, doesn't pay a housing allowance to begin with, so that was not what we were discussing. The issue is that, with its currency pegged to the US dollar, Hong Kong sits surrounded by countries whose currencies float and lately have been falling against the dollar. Whereas housing inflation absorbed the current account surplus in Hong Kong during the boom, housing deflation will rule the day for the forseeable future. If housing costs continue to fall (and they have fallen 30% already since summer by some estimations), so will housing allowances.

What is the best way to reach Kinney? Tried emailing through the site but couldn't get it to work with the yahoo account. Thanks.

Even, serious question here. What is the climate like for Jews working in Dubai or Abu Dhabi? Is it condoned? I know we can't set foot in Saudi Arabia, but just wondering if there are any restrictions, real or implied, in the above places. Thanks.

financial papers say that the credit crunch has finally caught up with the gulf states, and dubai in particular. markets in dubai are down 60% ytd. that and the increase in the number of JD resumes flowing to Dubai is not very good news. sounds like it will be increasingly harder to get a job and once there, you may be sitting on your hands just like in the good old western world. your thoughts?

18, Evan here. The global downturn is finally hitting both Asia and Middle East, no doubt. The prevailing thought is that these markets, especialy China, is going to come out of the down turn much more quickly than US (quicker by as much as a year, as US may be in downturn for up to two years). Thus it is in theory better to be in a market that is more likely to get busy by mid to late '09, rather than in US where things look a lot bleaker. It is difficult now to land positions in both UAE and Asia at top firms, unless you are perfect fit candidate. Some firms are still hiring in both regions (I made two associate placements in HK / China and one in Dubai in past two weeks), but are being very selective and have tons of candidates to choose from. Other firms have hiring freezes to some degree or another. It is just a really tough market out there. Wish I had better news.

i can't read the "jump" section of the article..it says more after the jump but it jumps straight to comments. was that it?

20, must be a problem with the site. There is more to the post after the jump.

9, Evan here. It depends on the market of course and not just on the tax rate but whether they tax expat benefits. I can assure you that you come out well ahead in after tax take home pay in any of these markets than what you would have in the US (due to expat allowances, as well as a tax windfall in some markets). Keep in mind that in HK, for example, you get a credit on US taxes for all taxes you pay to HK. Therefore, you don't pay US taxes on first 87k, but since you pay the HK 15% on that, you get a credit towards US tax liability. You also don't pay US taxes on what you spend on housing in HK (up to the monstrous sum of 114k), so if you spend 50k on housing, that puts you at 137k at no tax liability in US. I think HK does not tax you on housing as well. When you start paying US taxes after, in this example, the first 137k, you go into that tax liability with a credit for the taxes you have paid HK for the first 87k. Thus, the first 87k you are paying 15% taxes, the next 87k you are in effect only paying 15% as well. Plus you don't have tax liability on housing. So it takes a while before you are paying the full US rate. There is substantial tax saving in HK. In Tokyo, not so much, due to the higher than US income tax rate, but you get a bigger expat allowance there (in part because of this reason, as well as higher cost of living).

7, Don't you think its better to have a number of recruiters who give their views as opposed to just one? I think I would benefit from having a number of different opinions instead of relying on one alone, that way I can make up my own mind.

Evan and Richards views are helpful, but I don't think it would do any harm to see what others have to say... especially since it doesn't seem like Kinney have any exclusivity with ATL.

7, Don't you think its better to have a number of recruiters who give their views as opposed to just one? I think I would benefit from having a number of different opinions instead of relying on one alone, that way I can make up my own mind.

Evan and Richards views are helpful, but I don't think it would do any harm to see what others have to say... especially since it doesn't seem like Kinney have any exclusivity with ATL.

7, Don't you think its better to have a number of recruiters who give their views as opposed to just one? I think I would benefit from having a number of different opinions instead of relying on one alone, that way I can make up my own mind.

Evan and Richards views are helpful, but I don't think it would do any harm to see what others have to say... especially since it doesn't seem like Kinney have any exclusivity with ATL.

Sorry I meant Robert!

Evan, watch out on the tax stuff. it is not so clear cut that the first $87k is "tax free" and you only pay local tax, and then get a tax credit for the local tax paid on the $87k. what happens more specifically is you only get a proportionate tax credit based on your total comp over the tax free portion. Bear with me, since I'm not a tax lawyer and will probably say this wrong. But I've lived through it with my accountants out here, and the difference is very real. Example, suppose your taxable income is $200k, and you live in HK and pay 15% tax. You would therefore pay $30k in HK tax. However, you only get a tax credit for $30k multiplied by $200k/$87k (I can't do the math right now). Suffice it to say that the IRS will not let you take a tax credit for local taxes paid on the tax free $87k. So, armed with that knowledge, anyone interested in working in Singapore can then go to www.iras.gov.sg, which has a VERY user friendly and accurate spreadsheet to figure out projected local taxes. Then, using the formula above, you can figure out your US tax credit. Then, do a hypothetical 1040 and figure out your tax liability. That will give you all of the info you need. Lots of work, but what the hell, you're thinking of committing 2-3 yrs on the other side of the world. Might as well spend 3-4 hrs figuring out the $$. Generally speaking, your overall tax liability living in Singapore or Hong Kong will be significantly lower - but not necessarily a windfall (unless of course you're not an American). Got it?

Evan, watch out on the tax stuff. it is not so clear cut that the first $87k is "tax free" and you only pay local tax, and then get a tax credit for the local tax paid on the $87k. what happens more specifically is you only get a proportionate tax credit based on your total comp over the tax free portion. Bear with me, since I'm not a tax lawyer and will probably say this wrong. But I've lived through it with my accountants out here, and the difference is very real. Example, suppose your taxable income is $200k, and you live in HK and pay 15% tax. You would therefore pay $30k in HK tax. However, you only get a tax credit for $30k multiplied by $200k/$87k (I can't do the math right now). Suffice it to say that the IRS will not let you take a tax credit for local taxes paid on the tax free $87k. So, armed with that knowledge, anyone interested in working in Singapore can then go to www.iras.gov.sg, which has a VERY user friendly and accurate spreadsheet to figure out projected local taxes. Then, using the formula above, you can figure out your US tax credit. Then, do a hypothetical 1040 and figure out your tax liability. That will give you all of the info you need. Lots of work, but what the hell, you're thinking of committing 2-3 yrs on the other side of the world. Might as well spend 3-4 hrs figuring out the $$. Generally speaking, your overall tax liability living in Singapore or Hong Kong will be significantly lower - but not necessarily a windfall (unless of course you're not an American). Got it?

Evan, watch out on the tax stuff. it is not so clear cut that the first $87k is "tax free" and you only pay local tax, and then get a tax credit for the local tax paid on the $87k. what happens more specifically is you only get a proportionate tax credit based on your total comp over the tax free portion. Bear with me, since I'm not a tax lawyer and will probably say this wrong. But I've lived through it with my accountants out here, and the difference is very real. Example, suppose your taxable income is $200k, and you live in HK and pay 15% tax. You would therefore pay $30k in HK tax. However, you only get a tax credit for $30k multiplied by $200k/$87k (I can't do the math right now). Suffice it to say that the IRS will not let you take a tax credit for local taxes paid on the tax free $87k. So, armed with that knowledge, anyone interested in working in Singapore can then go to www.iras.gov.sg, which has a VERY user friendly and accurate spreadsheet to figure out projected local taxes. Then, using the formula above, you can figure out your US tax credit. Then, do a hypothetical 1040 and figure out your tax liability. That will give you all of the info you need. Lots of work, but what the hell, you're thinking of committing 2-3 yrs on the other side of the world. Might as well spend 3-4 hrs figuring out the $$. Generally speaking, your overall tax liability living in Singapore or Hong Kong will be significantly lower - but not necessarily a windfall (unless of course you're not an American). Got it?

Evan, watch out on the tax stuff. it is not so clear cut that the first $87k is "tax free" and you only pay local tax, and then get a tax credit for the local tax paid on the $87k. what happens more specifically is you only get a proportionate tax credit based on your total comp over the tax free portion. Bear with me, since I'm not a tax lawyer and will probably say this wrong. But I've lived through it with my accountants out here, and the difference is very real. Example, suppose your taxable income is $200k, and you live in HK and pay 15% tax. You would therefore pay $30k in HK tax. However, you only get a tax credit for $30k multiplied by $200k/$87k (I can't do the math right now). Suffice it to say that the IRS will not let you take a tax credit for local taxes paid on the tax free $87k. So, armed with that knowledge, anyone interested in working in Singapore can then go to www.iras.gov.sg, which has a VERY user friendly and accurate spreadsheet to figure out projected local taxes. Then, using the formula above, you can figure out your US tax credit. Then, do a hypothetical 1040 and figure out your tax liability. That will give you all of the info you need. Lots of work, but what the hell, you're thinking of committing 2-3 yrs on the other side of the world. Might as well spend 3-4 hrs figuring out the $$. Generally speaking, your overall tax liability living in Singapore or Hong Kong will be significantly lower - but not necessarily a windfall (unless of course you're not an American). Got it?

30, Evan here. Thanks for that clarification. I figured that was the case, but have been told by a number of associates in HK that they do get tax credit for that first 87k too. I was afraid to put this info in my post because I did not have time to research it and prefer to write the posts on the fly rather than prepare for them like some type of memo. But I think you may be exactly right. So losing that credit for HK taxes on the first 87k will take away some relatively small amount of tax benefit. Here is a question I do have? What about the amount you get tax free on housing while in Singapore? In HK they don't tax housing, but in Singapore I think they do. So I assume that the US will not give tax credit on that amount as well, right? At the end of the day it is still a big tax benefit to be in HK or Singapore, regardless.

How about question 17? Thanks.

you're a damned fool if you're a Jew considering working in the Middle East. damned fool.

17, Evan here. sorry for late reply. I know Jewish people that live and work in Dubai and have no problem, but they are not deeply religious people and probably in certain situations and with certain clients don't want to advertise that they are jewish. I am not jewish so it is hard for me to comment on whether I would want to work in UAE if I were jewish. A lot depends on the person. In all my visits to Dubai, I have never seen orthodox jewish walking around, so that is a pity. There is no jewish culture there and I imagine it would be difficult to practice your religion there in organized manner, which is also a shame. I understand that if you have israeli passport you will not be able to get in UAE, but that jewish persons with any other type of western passport can fly in an out of th country at their leisure, as well as get work visas. It may be impossible (I have heard so, but am not certain) for jewish associate to get visa to go to Saudi and some deals are done there so that could hamper your productivity. There are no tourist visas to Saudi Arabia, only business visas.

Do you often make placements in Bangkok?

35, Evan here. Never have. Not much need for US attorneys to be based there, although US associates in pan asia practices based in HK do travel to Bangkok on deals.

Evan:

How about positions in Asia/Middle East for U.S. attorneys with litigation backgrounds? Do you see many arbitration/dispute resolution positions that U.S. attorneys could fill?