Robert here. Evan might want to chime in as well, but I think it's a "ball of string" approach. The more you have the better. Did I use the word "nexus"? If so, I apologize. What a goofy law school word.

I realize that this question will go against your interests, but could NOT going through a recruiter improve a borderline (meaning not T20/top 20%) candidate's chances in any way? Are firms at the point where they too are looking to minimize hiring costs?

I think it depends. some reruiters are pretty well connected and can help you eek out hard to find positions. Others, especially some of the more experienced ones are cocky blowhards who pretend like they know everyone and everything but then do a half-ass job.
In general, my experience is that firms (and companies, with in-house positions) much prefer you not to use a recruiter, as obviously it costs them much more. I don't think it's generally going to make a huge difference though, because hopefully firms make the decision based on who is the best candidate, and don't just look at the short time hire cost. That having been said, if there are 2 candidates who are pretty much identical, not having a recruiter will def help you. In any event, whether you have a recuiter MOST DEFINITELY affects whether firm can offer you a signing bonus, and how much, etc.
In general, if you have a general idea of what you are looking for, and want to take a few minutes to look through the standard job posting sites, or career pages on firm websites, you'd be much better off without a recruiter. If you have no idea where to start (like, i want to go to hong kong but have no idea where it is on a map), you could benefit from a recruiter.
that having been said, I greatly dislike this "Asia chronicles" section. Robert sounds like pompous blowhard. I'm sure he's good at what he does, but he sounds like a huge jerk to be honest.

Please! What firm is going to offer signing bonus to anyone except than 1 in million condidate? And for such prized candidate, doubtful that a recruiter's fee will make any difference.

Robert and Evan,

Having a recruiter is beneficial. Though I think having a "reruiter" who "eeks" to spell correctly is probably better than having a Kinney Recruiter.

Not Robert here. 4 has no idea what he's talking about. First of all, firms don't have "hard to find positions". If firms want to hire associates, they'll advertise everywhere and all the time, and contact 1000 different recruiters to source resumes.

If a firm wants to hire partners, they'll be more discreet. But then they'll (or more aptly, their favorite HH or two) will find YOU. You will hardly find them.

As far as paying a fee, do you honestly think a billion dollar revenue law firm gives a crap about paying a HH $60K to find an associate who'll bill revenue in excess of $3MM in 3-4 years? it's a budgeted cost. they don't care.

Use a HH. but use a good one. He or she is much more likely to help you make a better career decision than you would be able to make on your own. the average big firm associate - -super-elite or not -- has no clue about firm practices, personalities or how the decision will factor into his/her career goals in the future. all of which means that he or she is likely to choose prestige and brand name over something more satisfying and viable, in the long term.

but 4 -- go ahead -- you know everything anyway. what are you, some 3rd year law student or 1st year associate? g'eed -- you don't know Sheeaaat about sheeaat.

I think evan is a bloviator. but -- having been a recruiter and a biglaw associate -- evan to me seems like the real deal.

Who doesn 't know Queen's Road Central from Tsim Tsa Shui.?

It's actually Tsim Sha Tsui.

I also read the articles regarding the rush to HK with some interest. I am currently at a firm in Tokyo, but have been watching Asia for some time. I was quite amused, because the vast majority of positions open in HK that I am aware require one thing: Fluency in Mandarin. I would think this alone would be a barrier no matter how experienced you may be, regardless of the resumes flooding the market.

10, Evan here. Mandarin is required or strongly preferred for hires at a number of firms in HK (and I find that Mandarin is becoming more important than it was in past few years), but there are also plenty of firms that hire English only fluent associates as well. It depends on the firm. Sure, having Mandarin fluency is a bonus at these latter firms, no doubt, but it is not going to get you a job over a more qualified candidate in such firms. Also, some native Mandarin junior associates, who have been in US only a few years for law school and a year or two as an associate, unfortunately do not have English skills at a high enough level to become great drafters. Thus, there are always some firms, even in mainland China, that are specifically looking for English native speakers and it is rare that one can be at English native fluent level and Mandarin native fluent level (although there are some of these candidates as well, but usually not at junior levels).

3, Evan here. That is an excellent question and I remember when I was a biglaw associate and considering a job search in the last recession ('01, '02), I had a hard time understanding why it would be best to use a recruiter when firms are trying to cut costs. It is hard to explain sufficiently in a comment, but I can assure you that a recruiting fee for major firms is usually a bargain to them. They get the best candidate pool (from a number of recruiters working for them, not just Kinney) in the shortest possible time. Further, and most importantly, especially with overseas hires, they get pre-screened candidates so that they know they are going to be having initial discussions with candidates that are the right personality fit for their group, for an overseas position, and also who are serious about committing to Asia, Middle East or elsewhere. During this market, firms will be receiving so many resumes that by not using a recruiter that is connected with that particular office, your resume may just remain in a large stack. Also, firms have certain business relations with their preferred recruiters and it is profitable for both sides. Even if firms would every 7 years or so have 6 months where they could hire just as well without recruiters (this is not the case), then they would still not want to disturb the business relations they have with their go to recruiters (who provide inside track to their getting partners and entire new groups to join them as well). Finally, the recruiting fees, although seemingly large from an associate or even recruiter's point of view, are just a drop in the bucket for a major law firm. On the other hand, if they hire the wrong candidate, they will have to spend multiple times more than the recruiting fee to train them up or even replace. Further, the partners having to sort through all the resumes (in most overseas offices, there is not a recruiting department) and make decisions on which 5 candidates to start conversations with, and whether they can feel confident giving offer based on just those conversations (instead of having a lot of background and opinion coming from trusted recruiter), is going to cost such partners a lot of time that they could be billing. I could go on for hours on this subject, but will get off my soap box here...

4, Evan here. There are simply no signing bonuses, except for at just a few HK firms that do not offer sufficient expat / housing / cola and replace that with signing bonus (so I don't consider those really signing bonuses). You ar way off on your other info as well. Companies, banks, funds, etc. usually fill in-house positions using one recruiter that they give exclusive to (I don't think this is the best approach, but is the way it is commonly done) and such exclusive agmts usually include a placement fee even if a candidate arrives from source other than such recruiter. Also, I have not seen a situation before where a firm chose which candidate to hire, even in close call, based on a recruiting fee.

3, Evan here again. Also, it is very important to keep in mind that a good recruiter is somone that you should be able to rely on for the long-term (both leading up to a job search, after your placement, and continuing on to other future job searches). Re a possible move to Asia, Middle East or other overseas location at present, there are not too many opportunities out there and the market is clogged with a lot of candidates, so it is not a good idea to simply email your resume to every firm you can think of or which may have a posting on its website. Most importantly, your recruiter / agent should be able to help you target the right handful of firms and help you decide which offer to accept (or to not accept any). The key is whether a recruiter is really acting as your agent or just a resume pusher. Obviously the latter has no value to your job search or long-term career.

Hi Evan. Thanks for posting and for the information. I am currently in law school, but I am also a citizen of Indonesia and a Permanent Resident of Singapore. What is the current market in Singapore for a US JD (Top 20 School) with ties to the region and language skills (Indonesian and Mandarin)? Also, would you recommend doing corporate work in the US for a few years before going to Asia, or going straight after law school? Thanks!

9 beat me to it, but yeah http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsim_Sha_Tsui

Hence the abbreviation TST for those in the know.

Thanks for all this info. Asia Chronicles is what keeps me coming back to ATL now that Mystal is so preachy and late in reporting the breaking legal news.

Bloviator. LOVE it

Just out of curiosity, do any HK law firms have a need for U.S. tax associates? If so, how many years of experience and what type of experience are they looking for?

Just out of curiosity, do any HK law firms have a need for U.S. tax associates? If so, how many years of experience and what type of experience are they looking for?

Lawdragon.com's 100 recruiters you need to know..

This must be some sort of sponsored list. There are several outstanding recruiters who don't get a mention here.

21, Evan here. It is not a sponsored list, I can assure you of that. But, yes, it is also not a be all end all ranking of the top 15 recruiters (there are only 15 recruiters on the list). But they put a lot of time and effort into researching and coming up wtih those names. I am of course honored and flattered to have been included. But of course I think there are other great recruiters not included. Most of the people on the list are the biggest and most well known players in the industry, such as Major, Lindsey and Mestel, for example.

19, Evan here. Unfortunately tax US associate positions in Asia at major firms are very rare. I have worked (unsuccessfully) on light (not urgent) tax associate search for Withers and Squire Sanders in past. I do think that in the next few years, there will be more tax positions, as firms diversify and not simply have back office support (NYC or London or elsewhere) handle the tax aspects that come up on Asia deals.

15, Evan here. You certainly have a serious advantage re your language skill set and regional ties if you were to conduct a job search in HK / China or Singapore. Whether you should start your career in Asia or US depends on what type of opportunities you can get while you are in law school. If you, like most, start in US, then after one year you will be very marketable in Asia, as long as you are at a solid firm and doing solid relevant transactional work your first year. A lot of US firms in Asia are starting to bring in more 1st years and summer associates but it is still much easier to land in US and then move of course.

fish heads...fish heads...roly-poly fish heads.

fish heads...fish heads...eat them up...yum.

25, great dr. demento reference. love it.

WHAT, 25? THAT MAKES NO SENSE. WHAT IN THE WORLD DOES EATING FISHHEADS HAVE TO DO WITH A DISCUSSION ABOUT THE CHINA LEGAL MARKET? AS 26 SAYS, YOU ARE PRETTY DEMENTED!!!!! WOULDN'T WANT TO WORK ON ESTEEMED TEAM, COUNSELOR.

Evan,

Off topic post here -- why would you go to Sevva. Such a rip. I mean, i spent $320 for a burger there. Absolutely ridiculous. $30 burger at DB Bistro in NYC is 10x better.

Curious Traveler

Robert noted that a firm is looking to upgrade its people due to prior bad hires. Took this to mean that firm is looking to let go of the bad hires. But how does a firm do that within context of China's labor laws? Does the firm replace as each bad hire's employment contract expires? I've checked but can't get good sense of how China's labor laws applies to US law firms. Any info would be appreciated.

29 - Not Robert or Evan here. US law firms in the PRC are representative offices of the home firm, and rep offices can hire expat staff, which are treated differently under the law (PRC labor laws could be opted out of by the employment agreement adopting foreign law -- these are limited circumstances). I am unsure about PRC labor law compliance issues when US law firm rep offices hire PRC nationals instead of expats.

Evan, one who is at English native fluent level and Mandarin native fluent level and is at a junior level here, what are my options if I have a specialized background instead of a general corporate background in Asia? Given that firms are laying off out here, do you think it'd be better to sit tight and ride out the storm or continuously be on the lookout just in case (I know you're a recruiter so you would rather push us to seek out other jobs through your agency but am hoping you'll answer this given your background and on a more objective level)?

Thanks.

25 - brings back memories mate.

22.

There are very good recruiters at BCG Attorney Search also. Chicago and New York in particular.

Evan, any need for a Korean speaker out there?

What if I am native level Englush/Urdu and offer reduced-rate mustache rides? Any shot for me?

34, only if the reduced rate rides aren't exclusive to your family.

Just wanted to add 2 cents ($1 today?) to 32's mention of BCG. I too thought that it was good until I recommended it to several friends for NYC. All but one told me later of rejection - essentially told "thanks but don't think we can help you, perhaps better to use personal connections vs. recruiter". Was puzzled by the feedback because this was during the boom and friends had good schools, good/top firms, all great experience) until it finally hit me - those rejected weren't T20 or top 10%. Thought perhaps that it was odd coincidence but later heard same thing from other colleagues. Just one person's observations so take it for what's it's worth.

Anyone know what happened to those "intimate cabal of high-flying, hard-charging corporate associates working throughout Asia, each sworn to secrecy and known to each other only by smell" who first wrote TAC before it got jacked by Kinney? Did they sadly become fish head soup?

33, Evan here. There are a few openings for Korea speaking US associates in Asia, in HK and Tokyo. Feel free to email me at evan@kinneyrecruiting.com if you would like more details.

31, Evan here. I could argue the case both ways in general, but a lot would depend on what exactly your specialized background is, whether it is a good fit for Asia or if you would need to retool. Having native level Mandarin and English at a junior level is a relatively rare combination, so that makes you very marketable in Asia (although the language ability is not important in US markets). Further, it is highly likely that the market will turn around quicker in HK / China than in US, so in general firms will get busier in China sooner than in US (although you may be busy now, so that is just a generalization). If your practice area is a good fit for HK / China, then I would suggest going after the few openings that are out there at firms that you would be targeting in a hot market. I would not settle just because of the tight lateral market. But if you could land in HK / China now, if that is where you want to be for the long-term, then it is a good move if you can today get in one of your target firms. Whether you move now or a year from now will not make too much difference though, regarding your marketability (as long as your specialization is a good fit for China because the more senior you get the less motivation firms have to retool). feel free to email me at evan@kinneyrecruiting.com to set up a call to further discuss your specific situation.

"there are layoffs happening in Hong Kong, Tokyo, Singapore and mainland China as we speak"

Can you clarify this? In law firms? In clients?

"there are layoffs happening in Hong Kong, Tokyo, Singapore and mainland China as we speak"

Can you clarify this? In law firms? In clients?

Evan - Is there any need in Asian markets for junior associates with derivatives experience?

Re 36, yes I think they are selective. I was initially rejected by BCG Attorney Search, but then called and spoke to a BCG NY recruiter. I had a good experience with her (I was looking at European options at the time). Ultimately, I decided to stay put (thankfully). Probably better to call a recruiter first before sending your resume. You're better able to keep control.

Food for Thought (yes, pun intended!)

Excerpt from Modern Lei Feng post "The Dwindling Expat Package"
http://huoleifeng.blogspot.com/2008/12/dwindling-expat-package.html

"Chinese salaries for expats aren't as high as people think. Above the Law's Asian Chronicles recently mentioned that salaries in Biglaw on mainland China, which used to range from $35,00-60,000 a year now can go as low as $15,000. On purely anecdotal evidence, and I'm not one with a lot of expat friends, I would say that most 25-35 year old expats in professional jobs are making between RMB15,000-40,000/month (this is solely in Beijing and Shanghai). In these cities, I'd argue its hard to live comfortably, go out sometimes, and save a little on anything less than RMB15,000/month.

If you're an expat and you come to China looking for a job, you better have 2 out of the 3: a unique specialization, an idea, or excellent Chinese skills. As pointed out by bizCult, Chinese are speaking better English than before (and obviously speak better Chinese than you), are spending more times overseas than ever before, and are willing to work for less. That said, there are more foreigners taking jobs with Chinese companies (as pointed out by CLB), especially as Chinese companies take over more and more foreign ones, and Chinese companies are offering better wages than in the past (while maintaining their traditionally strong job security)."

Salaries in Biglaw on mainland China, which used to range from $35,00-60,000 a year now can go as low as $15,000??? WTF?

Lol at the "English speaking" Chinese associates....Has anyone here actually done a cross border deal with the Chinese??? These people have a long way to go...a long way, before they can proficiently draft English law documents.

45: Wait, let me guess...ignorant American and proud of it? But then again, given word choices and usage, a close second is a Brit.

By "these people", are you referring to the entire 1.3b population or just the Chinese associates who may or may not speak English? And where do HK Chinese, many of whom speak impeccable English, fall in your esteemed opinion? (Note: excerpt in 44 isn't limited to law firms. In fact, second half appears to be from bizCult. Call me crazy but doubt that much drafting of any legal docs are done by that crowd.)

Perhaps they "have a long way to go...before proficiently draft English law documents". But fess up - how's your Mandarin/Cantonese? Can you even manage "hello, how are you"? I'm considered fluent in German but drafting German legal docs is an entirely different ballgame. So piss off and pray that China never wises up and implements a native language rule for all "law documents" pertaining to domestic matters/companies.

44, Evan here. First off, as you should already know, expat packages are comp in addition to the standard NYC top market base and bonus structures. Also, expat packages have remained steady in HK and Tokyo (at many firms actually rising in those markets in the past year). Most mainland firms pay expat packages at same or up to 20% lower than their HK offices, but there are some exceptions. Some mainland firms have lowered the expat packages in their recent offers, compared with what they were offering 6 months ago. But that is only some firms and such firms never had standard expat policy set in the mainland. In this current market climate, the only firms that are still giving the big expat packages in HK / China and Japan are those that already had a set policy to do so at certain numbers for each market (or if they did not have set policy, then those that are very competitive in recruiting nonetheless). Of the top US firms in HK / China and Japan, the large majority do have such set expat package numbers and have not waivered since the global down turn. But it is getting harder to land in the best firms, due to the downturn and substantial increase in number of candidates. The majority of 2nd tier of US firms in HK / China and Japan never had such set expat package numbers and were not to keen on offering them to new hires (although they had been in increasing numbers in past two years because of ultra competitive lateral recruitiing market). It is those 2nd tier firms that are starting to seriously waiver on offering lucrative expat packages in Asia. In Singapore and Middle East, even the very top US firms had for the most part never established expat package numbers and now in this market they have no incentive to do so.

Evan@47 - so the Modern Lei Feng post mistakenly used "salaries" when it was actually referring to expat packages? Whew!

But then again, I've heard rumors to the contrary on other blogs...

40/41 - think Orrick may have let go some assoicates in Tokyo as part of Nov announcement. But heard this through the grapevine so take it for what its worth. I wish that associates actually working in Asia would come here and comment on their experiences. Hard to find credible observations on firm culture and personalities over there other than Skadden apparently having shipped NY culture over.

Basically Evan is saying that if you're a superstar lawyer at Cravath who speaks fluent Mandarin, he can find you a job in China/HK. Really? But if you work at Reed Smith in Pittsburgh, then he probably cant help you. If you're the superstar, you don't really need his help. Go to one of the HH who pays a referral bonus and you're better off.

Lateralink.com 10k bonus
Legalrecruitingassociates.com 20k
Some others who pay 5k or 18 k.

45, yes. I'm really curious as to what Chinese company you worked with during your 'cross - border deal.' Most of the Chinese companies can now afford international law firms and hire partners and associates at such firms to handle cross - border representation on deals (can say so from experience). I'm guessing you worked with Mr. and Mrs. Zhang's donut shop out in the suburbs of Hebei and it was a few thousand dollar deal whereby your foreign client wanted to 'expand his capabilities in China'?

Why don't you think before you post - there's a plethora of top rated law firms handling work for the Chinese out here, whether it be cross border M&A's, foreign IPO's, PE deals, etc... 先想再说

Re "range from $35,00-60,000 a year now can go as low as $15,000". This range generally applies to two types.

First, this range is generally for those who do_not_square with the criteria that Evan has discussed in his various posts before--the criteria relating to who will likely find a job with the bulge bracket or top US/UK firms in Hong Kong/PRC.

This "lower" salary range may also apply to a second category. No disrespect to the hard-working and industrious Chinese, but it does take effort for them to improve their English drafting skills. So the above range applies to those who have not_yet_developed that level of English drafting skill. Keep in mind that many Chinese (with JDs or LLMs) actually do develop to that level--it's very amazing actually how fast they can develop these skills. Much faster than most Westerners can develop comparable Chinese drafting skills.

I think this means that if you're a Westerner and you haven't found a job yet, have had no serious connection to Asia before and you're thinking that Asia might be "easy", this is the range you may encounter.

Hong Kong: Also, keep in mind that the salary ranges are on a spectrum or a continuum. The range in Hong Kong generally has the Hong Kong local salary range (for locally trained solicitors) as a minimum (yes you may be paid the same as a 23 year old UK/ Hong Kong law grad) and NYC salaries as a maximum.

In China, the "bottom" would be the wages referred to in the range above, as paid by local Chinese firms and lower-tier Western firms. If you work hard, as many do, you can still work your way up. Although, it can be said that market conditions have made things more difficult--time will tell.

45/51: Thanks for coming back - really hoped that you would. Despite your experience, think that you're still wet behind the ears. First, you assumed (rookie mistake) that I worked on China matters. I'm fluent in German, genius - can you guess as to where my focus is? Second, you completely missed the fact that your original comment addressed "English speaking" Chinese associates, not US or UK associates working in the "plethora of top rated law firms" in Asia. One can only hope that such elite individuals can draft intelligibly in their native tongue but frankly, even that only comes with experience. Third, what's the relevance in fact that Chinese companies can hire international law firms to handle cross-border matters? To "proficiently draft English law documents"? Sure, that's important but maybe, just maybe, knowledge and understanding of foreign law has something (more) to do with it? Lastly, writing "先想再说" means nothing (Ich möchte wieder "zuerst" sagen - see?); come back with an APA written in Chinese (or German) and then I'll be duly impressed. Cheerio!

45/51: One last thing - you need to brush on your own language. Suggest that your start with the apostrophe section. lol

52, Evan here. A US JD transactional associate from a major US firm (where they are treated as full fledged US associate), landing in HK / China at a major US firm, is going to be paid NYC salaries. A US litigation associate landing in HK (which is rare) is likely going to be paid HK attorney salaries. Some US transactional associates that land at British firms are given less than NYC salaries (but only if they are not placed in the US practice of such British firm). The numbers of 30 to 60k now being as low as 15k only refers to the housing / cola / expat annual benefits at some mainland US firms. In HK the competitive US firms (and US practices of British firms) pay 60 to 80k in expat / cola/ housing expat benefits).

It sounds like Modern Lei Feng misquoted you then.

Nevertheless it is the case that random American JDs, from less competitive schools, who strike out for the local PRC firms or less competitive Western firms in PRC (and have no connection to Asia, but with a spirit of seeking "adventure"), will see the range discussed above. Again, the HK range have a higher "bottom". This is not to knock it or commend it in anyway, but in case there are plenty of American JDs looking for something "new" these days, and these are just a few words about what such individuals may encounter should you be less fortunate.

People also need to know where the bottoms of these ranges go, not just the top

Would proficiency in Cantonese be an advantage as well? As far as I know, there are not that many HK natives with US JDs.
Also, is it possible for someone to start in HK/Tokyo with 0 experience other than summer internships?

57, Evan here. fluency in Cantonese is helpful in a HK job search, but not of high priority for most US and British firms there. It is helpful to simply be a HK native with US JD because firms will completely understand and believe from the get go that you are committed to the region. It is only possible (with rare exception) to start in Asia at a major firm with 0 experiece if you do so through your first firm (landing their through law school recruiting).

Speaking an asian language always hels, obviously.