University of Michigan Law Student Should Have Come to ATL First
I know a lot of readers think we have an ax to grind with the University of Michigan Law School (even though we take pot shots at Head Coach Sweater Vest at every opportunity). We like Michigan. Maybe if more U-M Law students trusted that, a certain student would have come to ATL instead of the police. At least then she wouldn’t have been (immediately) charged with a crime for her involvement in a prostitution scandal that also implicated a U-M Near Eastern Studies professor:
The case came to light in April when the student went to an Ann Arbor police station to report she was assaulted by [Professor Yaron] Eliav after they met at a hotel on the city’s north side.The student told police she was advertising sex acts online via Craigslist to help pay tuition costs. For an in-state student, U-M Law School tuition is $41,500 a year; out-of-state students pay $44,500.
The student told police she reluctantly agreed to allow Eliav to strike her buttocks with a belt, but got upset when he slapped her in the face twice, reports said. She said she suffered vision problems afterward, but did not have any lasting injuries.
Even the Ann Arbor police couldn’t keep from cracking wise about the law student’s
“term-time job.”
The rarity of how the case began - with a law student showing up at the police department’s front desk to report she was assaulted while committing a crime herself - was not lost on investigators.“Perhaps she should have cracked a legal textbook before coming in to the police station to talk about this,” Ann Arbor Detective Sgt. Richard Kinsey said.
More fun details after the jump.
If the allegations are true, then we can say that there is at least one U-M law student who is more nervous about her future career prospects than “Nervous T-10 1L.”
Obviously, the future career prospects of the college professor don’t look too bright either:
When he was interviewed by police, Eliav said he responded to the online ad because he was interested in experimenting sexually. He said he complied when she told him to stop certain activities and admitted to slapping her face, but said it was “like a game,” reports said.Eliav also called the woman a willing participant and said they hugged at the end of the encounter, reports said.
It appears Eliav knew the woman was a law school student, but it not clear from the police reports whether he knew that going into the encounter. He told investigators the money he paid the woman was simply “a token,” and called her “a bored college student.”
I thought getting slapped in the face while getting screwed for a nominal fee was something only bored U-M football players do. Maybe when the professor saw the prone law student, he just assumed she was practicing for the Ohio State game.
(Sorry. I’ll stop. I made a simple “statement” that the winningest program in all of college football history would win more than FIVE GAMES this year; … now I’ve lost a massive amount my of Half-Skadden prestige bonus.)
In any event:
Police reports also indicate the student admitted to arranging money-for-sex deals with about eight or nine men in April and May, saying she needed the money for tuition. The student said she advertised online and got to her appointments using hourly rental cars available on campus through Zipcar, according to police reports.
Michigan. Prostitution. Zipcars! Rick Wagoner, take a look at your future.
University of Michigan investigates professor’s involvement in prostitution case with law student [MLive.com]
(422) Comments
Comments
FIRST!!! MILBANK ROCKS!!!
1st to say HO
I guess Nervous was REALLY desperate. We should have listened to his cries for help.
$100 the girl is Nervous T-10 1L.
Ellie hates Michigan...and we hate you back.
FifTTTh
There is better money in selling sheep to horny, lonely Michigan professors (especially in the winter months).
Probably used up a lot of money buying second lunches after fellow students stole her food from the refrigerator.
College football talk is retarded
Dla Piper laid off 20 associates in corporate this morning. MysTTTal, you Phat Phuck get off your ass and out those bastards.
Considering the average law school female rates at about a 2 out of 10 on the hotness scale I hope this guy was paying bargain basement prices.
I bet this article was a paid promotion by Zipcar
$100 the girl is Nervous T-10 1L.
I'm gonna get me some U of M CWT '05 NY female associate - I hear they are HORNY and PORNY.
Does that qualify as work-study?
Hahahahahaha some desperate girl got beat up. Hahahahahaha that is so funny. He slapped her, hahahaha, in the face, hahahaha twice.
What the fuck is wrong with you Elie?
I wonder what MacKinnon will say . . .
MysTTTal
Law school females (mostly) aren't ugly; they just don't care.
Your typical sorority bimbo spends two or three hours and Lord Knows how much $ on their appearance per day, and that's not including the clothes and breasts paid for by Daddy.
Anyone can look great with enough time, makeup and money. Most people don't look so good otherwise.
this is hot. wasn't there a girl (lady?) at stanford doing this a few year back? albeit in more professional way...
Prostitution does not constitute moral turpitude. The bar won't care.
9, Why do you hate freedom?
this guy married/related to fellow professor milka eliav?
http://www.umich.edu/~hjcs/people/
Prostitution does not constitute moral turpitude. The bar won't care.
I feel sorry for her. This was a cry for help.
I would slap Nervous T-10 1L for free with a pillow case full of pool balls.
Hilarious.
Coming to a two-bit blog to report a crime, suburb advice. Amazing.
19 = busted law school chick. This is not true at all, you can put lipstick on a pig and its still a pig.
This story is awesome.
This is a horrible, depressing story about the double standard where prostitutes get arrested and the johns get off easy (case in point - E.S. of NY). No one should have to endure physical abuse and pain and be ridiculed for it. Shame on you Elie.
Who is this girl? And how come no one has written to lawopen about this yet?
Alleged "in state" tuition at UM is an atrocity.
This is why I miss Lat. Such a juicy topic. And such shitty comments by Elie. Lat could have done so much with this. Sigh.
Jesus christ at least post a photo of the hooker so I know whether or not to get my whores off of Craigslist. Usually I just get them over at CWT.
19, you are a delusional woman. makeup and clothes have only marginal effects.
Now, working out and eating right (and not getting drunk all the time) is another matter, but that's not so easy...
is it me or does that prof look like the newest supreme court justice
Michigan law girls are easy...and ugly.
-Michigan 1L STUD
Is she pretty? It makes all the diffenrece...if the girl is ugly, than this story is gross and I am offended. If she is attractive, this story is hot!!
How much are law school girls charging these days?
ELIE -- Something on the Illinois AG's motion in the S Ct of Illinois for a TRO/PI against Gov Blagojevich, plz!!!
That's what you get with HO-listic admissions!
ROFL
this guy married/related to fellow professor milka eliav?
http://www.umich.edu/~hjcs/people/
31: I'm pretty sure that Ashley Dupre is doing pretty well for herself. Your example doesn't work all that well.
not unheard of. Stanford used have its share too.
I want to date this girl immediately and she needn't worry b/c I do not own a belt. I wear jogging suits all the time at my smallish firm in Nassau County.
Makeup and clothes only have a marginal effect?
Anyone seen Britney Spears in and out of makeup? That's not even the same person.
Is she pretty? It makes all the diffenrece...if the girl is ugly, than this story is gross and I am offended. If she is attractive, this story is hot!!
How much are law school girls charging these days?
go blue!
"Obviously, the future career prospects of the college professor don't look to bright either"
Learn how to spell too you friggen IDIOT
GO BLUE
I really hate P. bear.
"Obviously, the future career prospects of the college professor don't look to bright either"
Learn how to spell "too" you MORON
LETS GO BLUE!!!
this guy married/related to fellow professor milka eliav?
http://www.umich.edu/~hjcs/people/
31: Right on. I was just thinking the same thing. Just because she's a hooker, she's not allowed to report another crime? She's suppose to "take it and shut up"? This is the problem with making prostitution illegal. It allows men to abuse women with impunity, as long as they pay for it.
Lipstick on a pig = CWT NY 05 female associate
Lipstick on a sheep = JT sexy
$40k+ for tuition? You people are not as smart as you think you are.
I believe the point of law the article is referring to is the doctrine of unclean vag.
This woman will be a great lawyer. She knows a career of being a whore, so she should consider this on the job training.
Tengo un gato en los pantalounes.
Who knew that Jessica Cutler was now a student at U of M? Good for her!
The only thing that chicks can't fix are scars and extreme cases of the fat.
Anything else - swap glasses for contacts, dye the hair blonde and spend two hours on it a day, go to a tanning salon, buy a body shaper and a push-up bra.
Bunch of plastic people these days.
Who knew that Jessica Cutler is now a law student at U of M? Good for her!
Love his pedigree.....Open University of Israel B.A.
I think you have to know how to slap someone, or steal indigenous people's land to get in.
http://www.umich.edu/~neareast/faculty/yzeliav.htm
This would never happen at Columbia. That is why we are ranked higher than this TTT.
19 = http://www.tvacres.com/images/bobeck_mimi2.jpg
ROD PAMPERS
I thought Michigan Law students were supposed to be smart. This chick really didn't know she was showing up at the police station to admit to a crime?
I just lost a lot of respect for UM. Maybe they should up the bar on who gets admitted.
"Law school females (mostly) aren't ugly; they just don't care.
Your typical sorority bimbo spends two or three hours and Lord Knows how much $ on their appearance per day, and that's not including the clothes and breasts paid for by Daddy.
Anyone can look great with enough time, makeup and money. Most people don't look so good otherwise."
WHY DO WOMEN HATE OTHER WOMEN?
Yes, the doctrine of unclean vagina states that a prostitute cannot use the law to assist or protect her during the commission of her own crimes. All you fem-nazis take heed and wash up.
A little dickish of the cops to immediately arrest her on prostitution (and then publicly ridicule her). But I guess it’s better to get those expensive punching bags off the street than to allow them to keep enabling woman beaters. I mean, they should be beating their wives and girlfriends. Right?
That's a lot of nonsensical and unfunny writing in one post.
"Maybe if more U-M Law students trusted that, a certain student would have come to ATL instead of the police."
"trusted that"? Trusted what?
Comical exchanges of sexual favors seems to be a tradition among Michigan law folks. Another imfamous Michiganer, Marcia Bruggeman Hatch, does her "trysting" at the Ritz.
That and more at http://www.evilesq.com
Duquesne owns Michigan now.
Comical exchanges of sexual favors seems to be a tradition among Michigan law folks. Another imfamous Michiganer, Marcia Bruggeman Hatch, does her "trysting" at the Ritz.
That and more at http://www.evilesq.com
Do CWT NY 05 female associates behave this way? B/c if they do, shazaaaam.......that would be awesome.
What does "it ain't trickin' if you've got it" mean? I keep hearing all these rap stars say that. Is that a valid defense for this chick?
21 - Yes it is. See page 7:
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/86942.pdf
(11) Mayhem;
(12) Murder;
(13) Pandering;
(14) Prostitution;
Yes, this is good news....for the CURVE.
-another nervous Michigan 1L
HA! This girl whored herself out to pay outrageous $40K/year tuition and now she will never be a licensed attorney.
Paying $40K/year for tuition? Retarded. Whoring yourself out for $40K/year tuition? Equally retarded.
It's not nervous T-10 1L - it's a 2L.
I have no opinion on this post.
- Ed Stimes
that is incredible @*&$ing tuition for a state school
77: you dummy. this girl obviously would've helped the curve. she seems pretty dumb.
upon this being posted to lawopen:
All right, Law Open, while I like a witch hunt as much as the next guy, let's not do Above the Law's research for them. Ken, not cool, man. One of our own.
Let's keep it classy.
-a
When I first heard about this story I thought it was a michigan law prof and I thought of a couple possibilities...
Did this chick happen to party with the Duke Lacrosse Team before she went to Michigan?
This should have been titled "The hits keep coming at Michigan."
what's tuition at the other state school? University of Penn State?
upon this being posted to lawopen:
All right, Law Open, while I like a witch hunt as much as the next guy, let's not do Above the Law's research for them. Ken, not cool, man. One of our own.
Let's keep it classy.
-a
upon this being posted to lawopen:
All right, Law Open, while I like a witch hunt as much as the next guy, let's not do Above the Law's research for them. Ken, not cool, man. One of our own.
Let's keep it classy.
-a
How do you know it's a 2L, 79?
71 - Please go away. No one cares about your lame website. And it's "MichiganDer."
So what acronyms does she support? DFK, GFE, DATY?
83 what the hell is your problem, you're demeaning your classmates and school by filtering things through like that. very lame. Also, this is really low, Elie.
83 what the hell is your problem, you're demeaning your classmates and school by filtering things through like that. very lame. Also, this is really low, Elie.
19 = ugly monkey
so his name gets plastered on the internet and her name is a secret
yeah that's real fair..stupid federal privacy law
"I thought getting slapped in the face while getting screwed for a nominal fee was something only bored U-M football players do. Maybe when the professor saw the prone law student, he just assumed she was practicing for the Ohio State game.
(Sorry. I'll stop. I made a simple "statement" that the winningest program in all of college football history would win more than FIVE GAMES this year; ... now I've lost a massive amount my of Half-Skadden prestige bonus.)"
What?!! Are you fucking retarded?
This is making me horny in my sheep loving place.
63 = CLS 2L Stud
62-
"Love his pedigree.....Open University of Israel B.A.
I think you have to know how to slap someone, or steal indigenous people's land to get in."
You are a complete douche-tard. His pedigree is incredible. He has a PhD from one of the most prestigious programs of its kind in the world.
Also, I suggest you do some more research re: Israel's "indigenous people", because what you're going to find is HITTITES AND JEBUSITES, MOTHERFUCKER!!!
I guess $41k makes UVA's in-state look like a relative bargain at $36.5k.
Actually, wait, $36.5k is still a shitload of money for in-state.
You see, she's got this thing and it's f----ng golden. She won't just give it up for f----ng nothing.
You see, she's got this thing and it's f----ng golden. She won't just give it up for f----ng nothing.
62- he also got a Fulbright to study at Princeton. I'm guessing your pedigree pales in comparison - better start bitch-slapping some law students!
19 - You can't polish a turd.
The girl is 22, so I imagine she's pretty much gotta be a 1L...
Eli, did you get rejected by Michigan or something? seriously, wtf?
My sheep luvin place is gettin real tingly-like. um-hmm.
Delete 106's comment--anything relevant to this girl's identity is not cool.
62:
"Love his pedigree.....Open University of Israel B.A.
I think you have to know how to slap someone, or steal indigenous people's land to get in."
Wasn't that originally how people got into UMichigan also? Think about it.
http://federalism.typepad.com/crime_federalism/2008/10/shame-on-elie-m.html
Comment removed by moderator??? Wha? I cry censorship!
Also, I hereby take advantage of this renewed opportunity to claim FIRST! Haha! Everything's going my way!
You can take away my comment, but you'll never take my FREEDOM!!!
haha 107 - you are a moron. Yes, the only reason Elie would think that the ATL readership might find this interesting is if he got rejected by Michigan. Your classmate is whoring it up. Don't get mad at Elie.
Everything says "Comment removed by moderator." Weird.
Comment removed by moderator??? Wha? I cry censorship!
Also, I hereby take advantage of this renewed opportunity to claim FIRST! Haha! Everything's going my way!
Comment removed by moderator
when all these 'attractive' guys who can actually get a 'hot' girl start posting pics of themselves, then we'll actually care. until then - stfu ya fat, dress-alike-in-a-striped-shirt-untucked-with-jeans-and-shoes-uniform drunk asses. get a life. :)
why are all the comments gone?
umm
Fucking disgusting, Elie. Sneering at a woman who claims she got beat up during a sexual act? I'm not saying I believe her, or that you should, but you damn sure don't know either way.
You could have reported this story without the snide characterizations. Why don't you leave the misogyny to the trolls and resume your pathetic attempt at resembling a legal blogger?
All of the comments were removed? What gives?
Ellie, WTF? What happened to all the comments? Removed by moderator?
I find the police's actions in this very troubling. A victim need not have clean hands to report an assault.
That's a lot of comments removed by moderators. Moderating must be a full time job.
upon this being posted to lawopen:
All right, Law Open, while I like a witch hunt as much as the next guy, let's not do Above the Law's research for them. Ken, not cool, man. One of our own.
Let's keep it classy.
-a
First to comment since the previous ones were deleted!
Comment removed my moderator.
First!
Comment removed by moderator.
What could 125 people possibly have said that warranted each and every comment to have been "removed by moderator"? I smell CENSORSHIP!
test
why have all of the comments been removed?
Content removed by moderator?
what happened to all the comments?
What happened to the moderation? Bring back the moderation!
I bet Lat just got bitch slapped by Wachtel for putting that partner's wedding anouncement on legal eagle
this whole scenario must have been MysTTTal's doing
Freshman tailback Sam McGuffie, one of coach Rich Rodriguez's top recruits, has transferred from Michigan.
McGuffie was granted his release by the university, the Web site wolverines.com reported Friday. The report was confirmed by The Detroit News.
McGuffie was a noticeable no-show at last week's annual football bust.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081212/SPORTS0201/812120445/1361
19 = 118 = ugly monkey
I'm upset she got busted, one less idiot to assist my curve.
31: Right on. I was just thinking the same thing. Just because she's a hooker, she's not allowed to report another crime? She's suppose to "take it and shut up"? This is the problem with making prostitution illegal. It allows men to abuse women with impunity, as long as they pay for it.
My sheep luvin place is gettin real tingly-like.
Is this why nervous T-10 1L hasn't posted in a while? Despite finals, that's one person you'd expect to constantly be checking the blog.
Mr. Moderator = sheep milker
what are you guys talking about in terms of comments being removed? We haven't taken anything down off this thread.
I am very, very sad about McGuffie. Maybe hell transfer to Harvard like Tommy Amaker so I can still root for him?
--Elie
If this behavior of the police surprises you, you clearly don't remember or haven't taken criminal law.
Police = mouthbreathing scum.
"Michigan. Prostitution. Zipcars! Rick Wagoner, take a look at your future."
now THAT is "f----- golden." well played, sir.
31 and 52: Are you two nuts? The problem with prostitution is that women can't report the bad behavior of their customers? That's like saying that the problem with illegal drugs is that dealers can't report it when their customers pay with counterfeit bills.
This girl found herself the victim of a crime solely because she herself was committing a crime. Now you think she's "victimized" by the system because she can't report the slap without also revealing her own criminal acts? That's not victimization, that's karma.
Breaking: UM Law to offer Mustache Ride Law class.
Why is Ellie denying the blatant removed by moderator attack?
It happened.
I saw it.
It was upsetting.
Ollie Offal
109 - What's not cool about it? This isn't a rape victim we're talking about, she's a prostitute. What other adult criminals' identities do we keep secret?
I think prostitution is the answer to our economy's woes. That, and a big tax on the gays would really help.
i know this isn't the point of the story (which is awesome) but in state tuition is only 3k lower than out of state tuition?? what difference does that make?
i guess this means UMich has somewhat of a problem getting its students hired by biglaw?
A comprehensive program of Mustache Riding--and I mean education, training, placement, the whole works--would really help UM.
I'm not sure why the identity of the girl is hidden either. She pled no contest to a crime.
Comments are all back. Man, ATL has the shittiest comment system in the world. Elie, why are you guys so cheap?
Dear all: An article appeared in the Ann Arbor News today concerning a LSA faculty member and a student at the Law School. We are reviewing the situation carefully at this time.
I trust you share my concern for both for your fellow student and the potential impact of this matter on the University and Law School communities. I encourage you to demonstrate an ethic of discretion and sensitivity in your discussions and communications about this deeply unfortunate series of events. It is my expectation that by doing so you will help maintain the dignity and sense of caring that are hallmarks of the Michigan Law community.
Best, Evan
JONES DAY compensation letters?!?!?!?!!?
$300 per GULC at U of M. That's reasonable.
As for getting paid for sex-- isn't that a pretty common practice among graduate students? I know lots of students who have done this, including at this school.
from an U of M 1L to the entire law school
a) the POs name was "Kinsey" and it just happens to be a sex-related crime? ironic.
b) "Kinsey" could use some sensitivity training.
Apparently, this is a common practice at UM Law. From the listserv:
"As for getting paid for sex-- isn't that a pretty common practice among graduate students? I know lots of students who have done this, including at this school."
You obviously don't know anything about football since Michigan's football coach is Rich Rodriguez - he does not wear sweater vests. The sweater vest-wearing coach is Ohio State's Jim Tressel. It's not hard to crack on Rodriguez after this horrific season. But please don't mistake him for Tressel, who wins games and has made the sweater vest a point of pride in Ohio.
@ 161, 163
the student that posted that also did not complete med school and is retaking at least two 1L classes this year
but he sure does act as the medical authority in torts with his own hypos!
I would hate to be the one who rents the Zip car after her. Unless she opened up all the windows to let the stank out.
"Moderator" is the worst ATL character so far. Worse than CWT NY 05 female and PEANUTS guy.
164 - "made the sweater vest a point of pride in Ohio"
Loohoo. Zer.
Dear fellow UMich classmates,
It's really rude and cowardly to make fun of your classmates here anonymously. If you are just going to repost everything sent to law-open verbatim and mock someone behind his back, that's pretty disgusting.
I try to show my classmates basic respect, and I wish that you would too.
then out yourself, 169
-165
All (especially those connected to Michigan Law),
Look, this incident is a reflection on this individual specifically, on her choice to commit a crime. It is not, nor should it be a reflection on Michigan Law School.
Michigan has a 150 year history of excellence, from the days of Clarence Darrow to the present day. Certainly, there have been graduates of our school who have exhibited less than stellar judgment (Ann Coulter, etc.) Yet the vast, vast majority of Michigan graduates are excellent lawyers and quality individuals.
Michigan students take pride in the collegial nature of this school, that people share outlines, talk to one another, and are genuinely invested in the school. We are part of a tradition that reaches back far before we were born and will continue long after we die. We are Michigan students. Michigan Men. Michigan Women. Let's Act like it.
Go Blue.
- Hutchins
I would nail the stank out of her for free.
Ellie would nail the stank out of her if she was made out of pot roast.
169:
You have earned yourself a (reduced-rate) mustache ride.
171 is a true umich student, because the jackass had to take a perfectly good "we're all included" statement and throw in liberal horseshit!
go blue
-federalist society
171: typical liberal hack going for the gratuitous dig at Ann Coulter.
First, bitches!
I've had it with the "mustache ride" comments.
You can NEVER find a reduced-rate one anymore.
How many dragons would it cost for the girl and the professor to get it on with a sheep?
171 - did you still get beat up alot?
I think we can all agree that, as usual, the saddest part of this story is Elie's writing.
Dude, you really need to focus!
171: no you f*wit it's a reflection on this professor too. It took guts to report a crime in this context and she did. You don't get to assault a hooker just because she's a hooker.
171: no you f*wit it's a reflection on this professor too. It took guts to report a crime in this context and she did. You don't get to assault a hooker just because she's a hooker.
Prostitution should be legal. I love whores.
Freeeeeeeeeeeedddddoooooooooommmm!!!!!!!
181-
I hate to say it, but you may want to think about a (reduced-rate) mustache ride...just think about it. K?
178 -- That has to be worth at least 2 dragons. At least.
Charles Woodson intercepted my comment. Again. Damn his ability.
This site can be so disgusting.
I think ATL needs to eliminate "guest" posts and make everyone register to log in, because nobody would say half the crap they say if they had to be held responsible for it. Just because you have the privilege to let your inner-rudeness out under the "guest" name doesn't mean you should.
Calling for someone to out themselves (like, if someone tells me to out myself) is ridiculous. If everyone had to put names up, which they should, there would be no such thing as "outing" and you would just be responsible for what you say. But because everyone else is a guest, I will stand out if I "out myself", even though what I am saying is not something I wouldn't be proud to say with my name attached, and if EVERYONE or a majority of posters are made to register, I will take credit for this posting at that time.
This girl will read these posts. She will hear about them. That sucks. I am glad that when she reads mine she won't feel even shitier than she already does. I hope you feel better.
Do you guys ever think about how other people feel??????????????????????????????????????????
You must all lead really privileged lives and not know what it is like to hit a hard time, because if you did know, you wouldn't try to make it harder on someone.
Sure, some scandals are funny, like Eliot Spitzer's or Kilpatricks. We can talk about Lindsay Lohan and Brittany Spears, but part of the reason is that THEY WILL NEVER READ OUR PETTY REMARKS and are OUTSIDE of our community. This girl is IN our community, and she's got trouble and we should make it easier, not harder, for her. But...
Let the vultures will be done, until they find their wings are clipped and they get eaten themselves, screaming of the horror and injustice of the vultures all the while.
With $41K in-state tuition, UofM students are already getting #&@*ed in the ass and donkey punched.
This site can be so disgusting.
I think ATL needs to eliminate "guest" posts and make everyone register to log in, because nobody would say half the crap they say if they had to be held responsible for it. Just because you have the privilege to let your inner-rudeness out under the "guest" name doesn't mean you should.
Calling for someone to out themselves (like, if someone tells me to out myself) is ridiculous. If everyone had to put names up, which they should, there would be no such thing as "outing" and you would just be responsible for what you say. But because everyone else is a guest, I will stand out if I "out myself", even though what I am saying is not something I wouldn't be proud to say with my name attached, and if EVERYONE or a majority of posters are made to register, I will take credit for this posting at that time.
This girl will read these posts. She will hear about them. That sucks. I am glad that when she reads mine she won't feel even shitier than she already does. I hope you feel better.
Do you guys ever think about how other people feel??????????????????????????????????????????
You must all lead really privileged lives and not know what it is like to hit a hard time, because if you did know, you wouldn't try to make it harder on someone.
Sure, some scandals are funny, like Eliot Spitzer's or Kilpatricks. We can talk about Lindsay Lohan and Brittany Spears, but part of the reason is that THEY WILL NEVER READ OUR PETTY REMARKS and are OUTSIDE of our community. This girl is IN our community, and she's got trouble and we should make it easier, not harder, for her. But...
Let the vultures will be done, until they find their wings are clipped and they get eaten themselves, screaming of the horror and injustice of the vultures all the while.
187: Why not "out" yourself to set an example?
You're an idiot if you think the student is concerned with what people are saying on ATL right now.
Oh, and one question mark is enough, you moron.
187, If we're forced to register, how the fuck are we supposed to know when mustache rides are free or not??? Shit, bitch, get in line with the rest of us.
31: Oh, give me a break. You'll notice that the john's name is public, her name isn't. Yes, it's sketchy if this professor hit her, but this is certainly not some horrible hard-luck story where the prostitute is a crack addict with a few kids to support. Plenty of us get through law school by supporting ourselves the other old-fashioned way - loans.
So this "intelligent" student meets an older man in a hotel room, after offering over the internet to perform sex acts for money, engages in light S&M with a belt, then gets pissed about a slap in the midst of the whole sad charade.
It's one thing if the guy tied her up and started beating her, but seriously, if you don't want to play rough then take your wannabe-whore self home and try to get a decent grade or two like a normal law student.
166-Fabulous.
187
U is crazy and needs a mustache ride.
-Britney
As a Jew, I am offended that my fellow member of the tribe Eliav was involved in this sordid affair. He paid retail and got ripped off, and it didn't even seem like he got any bang for the buck.
196 NAILED it!
187-189: Love the tirade against guest posters when you yourself are a guest poster. LOL!
Michigan football is an absolute embarassment! There is simply no argument any UM fan could make after the last two seasons. TERRIBLE! Ellie you are an idiot for even mentioning it.
Michigan football is an absolute embarassment! There is simply no argument any UM fan could make after the last two seasons. TERRIBLE! Elie you are an idiot for even mentioning it.
intelligence is inversely correlated with self-righteousness and question marks.
It's a little sickening to read aspiring lawyers talk disparagingly about "whores," as if they weren't themselves.
199: We beat Florida last season, dumbass.
Jesus. What a bunch of spiteful motherfuckers you are. Can't wait to smack around your daughters in 20 years.
i know who it isss (sung to nanny nanny boo boo tune)
202 - elaborate please.
Actually, don't, because I'm assuming that your sweeping generalization was not supposed to be supported by anything resembling logic.
If a woman is a whore, she's a whore. Same goes for a man. Doesn't matter if the person calling them what they are happens to be a member of the legal profession.
I know you shouldn't think that is cool.
189 - maybe she should have thought about how she would "feel" BEFORE becoming a prostitute. A lot of people have "difficult times" and ridiculous student loans, but there are other (better) ways of dealing with it. Yea, most jobs would require more time and would pay less, but at least she wouldn't have to worry about "feeling" like a whore.
I don't know why you are all hating on promiscuous girls so much. All of you guys only wish you could get a girl without having to pay her and undoubtedly would take a girl even if you did have to pay her!
Are you sure you want to discourage whoreness?
She is a victim of getting slapped in the face. I've been punched in the face before, unprovoked, and I'm sure a lot of other guys have as well. It sucks, but it's not that big of a deal in the big scheme of things. I hope the professor is prosecuted for assault and solicitation, but that's really the extent to which I feel sorry for her as a victim.
Many, many, many people take out full loans to go to a school like Michigan, and I'm guessing that the number who have prostituted themselves is extremely small. Hell, if at Michigan she feels the need to prostitute herself to cover her debt, what do you think the dumb girl from your high school at Touro is doing? There is a serious problem with the tuition charged by law schools, but not at T10 schools. Financially, they are worth every penny. The tuition problem is with the TTT's and FTT's. I'd feel much greater empathy if she was a student at one of these schools, with legitimately no job prospects.
serious q, what is a "mustache ride?"
171:
This is most definitely a reflection of Michigan Law and the sort of admission standards they have. Your law school admits whores. Literally.
187, 189:
It's soooo bad that the whore at your law school will feel bad when she reads this comment. No, wait. It isn't. She's a prostitute. She doesn't have feelings.
209 -
FAIL to recognize the distinction between promiscuity and prostitution.
If you, however, want to encourage (or engage) in either or both, then don't feel obliged to change your proclivities because of an online message board.
202: Did you not get the memo, or are you just retarded. A whore is a person that has sex for money. There's nothing wrong about calling someone a whore if they are, in fact, literally and by definition, a whore.
P.S. She probably has AIDS, and if she's from texas, she probably has those super-AIDS I keep hearing about.
189 Take a chill pill dude.
211 -
http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=mustache+ride
212
Last time I checked, there are no "Character & Fitness" or "Ethics" portions on applications to the top 14 law schools. (Beyond the portion asking you to disclose your MIP for smoking pot in college) Sure, we'd expect someone with a 3.7 and a 170 to know that prostitution is a very very poor career choice for her, but that is not a reflection on MLaw specifically.
If it reflects poorly on anything re: institutions, it shows that law schools may undervalue integrity and character elements when considering candidates for admission, though these are admittedly highly subjective standards.
In conclusion, Michigan is an awesome place, home to a world class university, a kickass basketball team, and a soon to be incredibly kick ass football team.
Go Blue.
Elie - you are an asshole for laughing at this girl...
If I ever see you on the street you fat fucker, I am going to punch your gut...
I love them whores they never judge you
What can you say when you're a whore?
They cast that pearl and it don't upset 'em
They take their chances if they get 'em
You give me breadcrumb uh - hu
I'm tired of living the bosses' dream
They'll squeeze you dry man if you let em
Better take your - take your - take your chances if you get em
I'm pretty disgusted by the sentiments expressed on this board overall. In particular, the amount of bile (and let's face it, racist bile) expressed against the editor is a pretty sad commentary on the attitudes and outlook of recent law school graduates. I'm a partner at a V5 firm, and odds are that some of the people posting these regrettable comments are associates at my firm. Think about your own sense of honor and good judgment, please.
220-
You have truly earned your (reduced-rate) mustache ride, good sir!
Condom removed by moderator.
Can I have a mustache ride?
I think I just got billed $420 for 220's post
So the going rate for UM Law students is now $100/hr?
Overpriced. I can get better whores in India for $19.73/hr. And let's face it, I only need about 4 minutes anyway (that's $1.32).
223
I don't have a mustache, but sure. Come on over.
226 - 223 is a man baby, a MAN!
220- Am I missing something? Where are you seeing racism?
Anyone in the area: has this decrease in supply of UM Law whores upped their billable whoring rate to $125? I already thought $100 was a bit steep...
I thought this school had moved to Naples, FL already.
228, some people criticized Elie for being insensitive to the plight of a crime victim who made some bad decisions in life. See post 16.
Of course, to liberals, any criticism of a person who happens to be black is "racism."
I hear there's a story about a boy who cried wolf that may be relevant in this context.
Wasn't Michigan originally called Detroit College of Law?
@ 19 & 118 --
To quote one of , if not the, best movie lines of all time:
"Just becuase you pour syrup on shit don't make it pancakes"
Law schools, particularly the very best ones, are littered with frightfully homely women.
231 - blanket statements like "to liberals" make me immediately tune out. It's really just as simplistic of a view point as the statements that you're criticizing.
217, had she taken crim at said law school yet? If so, she apparently did not learn much.
Amen, 31. This post and comments are disgusting, even by ATL standards.
Yes 31 and 236, society's "double standard" about prostitutes and johns is the reason why Ashley Dupre was arrested while Eliot Spitzer suffered no consequences for his actions. Oh wait...
Kids I graduated with from LS&A used to whore themselves out all the time, it was no big deal. Except they didn't do it on craigslist, they did it at Scorekeepers.
Serious question: how is this inordinately disgusting?
She freely chose to whore herself out. She then turned herself into the police, as a law student. She didn't deserve to be slapped in the face, but what else is there to feel sorry for her for? As has been said, *many* students take out a lot of debt to go to law school. This girl actually had good job prospects, and even if she was unlucky enough to not land a biglaw job at Michigan, the LRAP program provides insurance. She wasn't forced into prostitution.
The smart move here would have been to blackmail the professor for an A and a teaching assistant "job" that didn't require her to do anything.
Please close down comments on this post. Haven't we done this girl enough harm?
217: Yes, this is a reflect on UM Law. It is a reflection on how well your students understand extraordinarily obvious crim law principles. If your students know nothing about basic 1L courses, your school sucks.
How long until her name's out there? I need a photo!
233 needs to wake up next to a 9 who turned into a 5 after she dropped two cup sizes from taking off her bra, shrank 3 inches after taking off her shoes, and the makeup rubbed off her acne.
No wonder you chumps get taken to the cleaners by gold diggers.
in the linked article, it reports that she got $300. let that sink in for a minute.
300 dollars?!? Are you fucking kidding me? If you're going to whore yourself out to pay tuition, at least have enough self respect to make some decent money off of it! Getting $300 for getting nailed by dirty old men off craigslist and slapped around is pathetic. $300 into a tuition of $44k a year is like a drop in the bucket. Shit, you can go get a part time job and make $200/ week and not have to get slapped around or nailed by dirty old men off of craigslist.
241 - no we have not. She is a dumb whore who deserves everything that she has coming to her. I just cannot stand stupid people. Especially when they should know what they are doing is wrong and not go confess to the police. What did she think was going to happen?
Keep in mind, this post was written by the same man who was happy that OJ got away with murdering his ex-wife.
245 - but to make that $200 she would have to do some real work. It was probably too far beneath her to go work some menial job. However whoring herself out on craigslist was fairly easy and she could make $300 in just a few hours. That is until she confessed to prostitution because she is a fucking moron and threw away her entire career. I hope she goes down for prostitution and it ends up on her record and she has to try to explain that to every potential employer. Unless she just sucks and fucks her way through OCIs, which is a possibility.
law school pulled her photo from the facebook
Ann Arbor is a whore.
How do you keep a Michigan fan from masturbating?
Paint his dick Scarlet and gray and he won't beat it for at least five years.
so everyone pretty much realizes this was nervous T-10 1L right?
Nervous talks about how she needs a paying job this summer
Nervous retires last week
This girl has sex for cash
Turns herself in (we all knew nervous wasn't too bright)
I'm no Civ Pro expert but this definitely seems to raise a conditionally mandatory inference.
Let's all give her a break. She needed to pay tuition.
1) I've never found a live woman on CL-- all my ventures into the hookup column have yielded are spam, and unwelcome offers from trannies / gay dudes (nothing against them, just not my thing). So, kudos to her for being a real live CL broad.
2) leave it to the dumbfuck cops to arrest her and call the media to get a laugh out of it. What they should've done, is used their discretion NOT to arrest her, and realize she was more valuable as a witness against this freaky-ass professor. Fucking cops.
3) she should've realized the risk of this when she complained to the fucking police. That's just like a law student- no practical appreciation of the real world side of the 'law,' and probably thought the outside world worked just like a university's sexual-harassment policy. Think again.
Now, she will have great difficulty getting past a character and fitness committee.
Prostitution should be legal anyway. Why is it illegal to sell something you can give away for free?
254, it's the same difference between giving a baby for adoption and selling that baby.
I'm curious:
Note that she was not convicted of prostitution; instead it was "using a computer to commit a crime," a misdemeanor. Obviously a bar character & fitness committee will ask questions about this, but would they really exclude an applicant for this particular crime, or just give her a hard time instead?
-- Not the UM female in question
255 -- You're right, there's a victim and everything, just like with the baby! And ownership of one's own sexuality is evil, just like ownership of a baby! Jackass.
I'm surprised no one has felt the need to point out that the definition of moral turpitude offered by 76 is for purposes of getting a visa only, promulgated by the state department, and generally isn't relevant to state bar associations' definition except by coincidence.
212, you sound so ridiculous that at first you seem sarcastic. "She's a prostitute. She doesn't have feelings." Really? Really really? You are disgusting, and I hope you never find the skeletons in your mom's closet.
212:
She sure felt that slap to the face!
To everyone defending this dumb bitch. Do you know why she can't sell something that she can give away for free? Because it is illegal. And that is all we need to know. If something is illegal, even if you disagree with it, you don't do it. And if you do you better be prepared to get charged. Also, the "she needed to pay tuition" excuse is bullshit. I go to a law school with comparable tuition and I work to pay mine. Every day after classes I go to work and it sucks. I don't have any time to study/sleep and it would be a lot easier if I just robbed a bank, but I don't.
I agree with the last part of 261. Obviously tuition is expensive, but Michigan students typically take out large loans and enslave themselves to biglaw for 3-5 years while paying it back. If they prostitute themselves, sell drugs, or something similar, they will (and probably should) be criticized. Heavily. Some hookers are victims of horrible circumstances. Those women should be defended. But, under almost no circumstances is a law student at a Top 10 law school--particularly given her opportunities and professional potential--one of those.
Sex not dirty. Prostitution legal in some places. Police enforce laws. Laws not morals. Personal choice. Consequences. Still a person. Feelings.
Is $300 the going rate for slapping a whore in the face? Seems a little pricey.
256,
http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2003/03/21/loc_kyprostitutelawyer21.html
this lawyer was admitted. A lawyer a few years ago in Ohio was not admitted, but she had lied in her application, denying the criminal history.
The problem this student has, is that her misconduct occurred WHILE IN LAW SCHOOL. Presenting this as a means to pay for law school is problematic: you can hear them thinking "if she'll do this just to pay for law school, when legitimate means such as loans are readily available, what will she do when she's a lawyer and the pressure's REALLY on and there's temptation to cheat?"
This is a bigger deal than, say, a DUI. I can't see her getting admitted, unless she does some major housecleaning- such as counseling, and some other crapola pro bono-type bullshit to demonstrate responsibility. Still, a lot of states would refuse her admission.
"Why is it illegal to sell something you can give away for free?"
Is that Governor Blago?
Idiot.
266 - Governor Blago doesn't "own" Barack Obama's senate seat.
This girl OWNS her own vagina.
Making prostitution illegal is THE MAN's way of punishing women for being in control of their own vagina. MEN want women's vaginas to be free.
266 - Here is an example since you don't understand.
I own my car. I could give my car to my boyfriend or I could sell my car to my boyfriend. If it was illegal to sell my car to my boyfriend that would be pretty stupid.
Now, to everyone who says that sex is something sacred and should be analogized to a car, grow up. That is nice that you think that, but few people practice that in reality.
This shows misconduct under financial pressure - engaging in illegal activity to get untaxed cash income to handle bills. The conduct is recent and it is unquestionably deliberate and fully culpable.
She's not going to be admitted. She should drop out if she isn't given the boot.
Well at least in michigan the law states that you can't have a criminal conviction as the SOLE reason for denying the legal license in the character and fitness part.
Women are to blame for prostitution's illegality. If prostitution were legal, there would be no need to take a girl out to dinner and a show first.
19: Why did you capitalize "Lord Knows"?
270 - The conviction or other disposition of criminal acts isn't the important part of C&F. They care about what you actually did - hence the "list all arrests"/"regardless of pardon, expungement, not guilty, etc."
Basically, they want to know the underlying facts because they know that the legal system is an imperfect measure of what they are actually getting.
The facts here are not good mainly because this is financially motivated.
269, you are probably right, but until we have her 2008 tax return we won't know if she declared it.
262--
No one here knows why this woman decided to prostitute herself. Maybe she couldn't get loans due to credit trouble. Maybe her financial aid took forever to come through (once, I had to wait 4 months before financial aid dispersed my payments because of some weird bureaucratic rule...didn't prostitute myself, but things were desperate). Though UMLS has an emergency loan program, the terms are a joke: you have to repay them within a very short period of time--too short for many people to come up with the needed cash to pay it back.
She probably did have other options (including looking for a different line of work); but maybe dropping out of school was her only alternative.
Anyhow, I'm not saying that this was a good decision. But don't pretend you actually know her deal, or that no one at a T10 law school could get into dire financial straights, or that financial aid is always there to bail you out.
267 and 268 = epic fail.
Unless, of course, you think its perfectly fine for human organ trading. Or do men (or women for that matter) not own their own kidneys?
275: Congratulations, you have just earned a (reduced-rate) mustache ride!
Finally....a story that belongs on a legal tabloid. It's been months Mystal...lets build on this.
275---
I think she probably just likes to get laid.
To those who don't think this girl is an idiot, let's move to some other scenarios.
"Officer, after we robbed this bank, this guy refused to give me my share of the money. Arrest him!"
I never knew gay men could be so misogynistic... Shame on you, Elie. 31 is right.
Another scenario:
I'm wearin' my "Mustache Rides- 5 cents" t-shirt and your old lady cops a ride, but doesn't cough up the nickel.
(seriously happened to me once.)
This is absurd. The girl is an idiot. She deserves what she got from the police. She SHOULD have cracked a legal textbook. She SHOULD be kicked out. She SHOULD face consequences for her idiocy. People need to stop standing up for the stupid.
There is no sexism in pointing out her universally STUPID behavior.
- Female Michigan 1L
283,
I normally just think these comments are all spam but urs made me do a double take. :) lol. Anyhow, how bout we get together l8r at my place with a special outfit?
Bitch at 283 (and analogous bitches throughout): was your daddy there to co-sign her loans? Was your mommy there to pay her rent? Was it your trust fund there to cover any emergencies in her life? Sure, her choice looks bad, but life is complicated and empathy is a virtue.
-Michigan 2L
Oh please - my tuition comes from ME. From my LEGAL hard work just like 99% of the other students there. Apologists like you, 285, are the reason our peers think the law shouldn't apply to them. She broke the law. Then she went to the police and admitted she broke the law and somehow doesn't think there should be a consequence. She is an embarrassment to the law school and so are you for supporting her.
~283
285 - not the "bitch at 283" but just wanted to say "STFU" in her stead. Both undergrad and law school expenses all on me but never once did I think about breaking the law to cover some of it. Life is complicated? No shit, Sherlock. Empathy is a virtue? OK. How about a person repeatedly commiting criminal acts during process of becoming (not!) a lawyer? Doesn't say much about that person's judgment, huh? Makes me wonder what you're doing to cover your law school education.
Frankly, I think that we should adopt the Netherlands' policies both as to prostitution and pot. But until then, engaging in either remains illegal. Far as I know, there's no "dire circumstances; needed the money" exception in criminal law.
What's worse, a law student prostituting self to pay for LS or a lawyer who gets identical twin to help out when swamped (Italian lawyer, both prosecuted for fraud)? No joke this, check out Times of London story "Weirdest legal cases of 2008"
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/article5288066.ece?&EMC-Bltn=G9QHY9
What's worse, a law student prostituting self to pay for LS or a lawyer who gets identical twin to help out when swamped (Italian lawyer, both prosecuted for fraud)? No joke this, check out Times of London story "Weirdest legal cases of 2008"
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/article5288066.ece?&EMC-Bltn=G9QHY9
283/286 -- I doubt you're earning $40K+ while in school, and even if you are, that doesn't justify being a bitch.
Should she break the law? Probably not, though I don't know that breaking the law is some great evil that we should look down on those who do it without considering the nature of the offense.
Should she be prosecuted? Probably not, because deterring violence against sex workers is more important than deterring sex work--both are illegal, but one's also bad.
Should we look down on her and give her shit, like so many folk here and on lawopen do? Definitely not: she made her choices, they might have even been dumb or crazy, but they weren't somehow malicious or hurtful to anyone. She's getting hers already, and piling on is the type of stupid, cruel moralism that would have us stoning her in the public square. She fucked up, her safety net was shitty, help her up or move along.
Wrong again 290. Here's the thing -- I didn't make a comment until 283 -- none of the others are mine. It wasn't until I read the mindless drivel about what a poor little victim she was that it became PAINFULLY clear that the vast majority of people in this world don't believe in facing the consequence of your actions.
Should she be prosecuted -- YES. SHE BROKE THE GODDAMN LAW. End of discussion.
Should we look down on her? If I ever did something that stupid I would EXPECT to get looked down on for it and I would be rightly embarrassed for it. The fact that people are trying to act like a woman who agreed to be hit in the course of a sexual encounter, got hit and then complained should have any sympathy is so far out in left field I can't even fully comprehend it.
She should be removed from the law school. She should not be allowed to practice law. Call it whatever you want - but the vast majority of people figure out how to make their way through law school WITHOUT breaking the law. Those who don't aren't smart enough to be lawyers.
She fucked up. Its not about safety net - its about choices and accountability and I'm sick and tired of people justifying not holding someone accountable for her choices. When she faces the consequence like an adult, does her time or pays her fine or whatever -- THEN people should move on. But not before.
~283
287: Even criminals deserve empathy. It has nothing to do with what their status is under the law. It has to do something as their status as a human being.
However, I do question the person's decision on why she went to the police. Was it because she was not aware of the consequences? Or was it because she was aware, but it was a calculated risk to punish someone who assaulted her?
You're right 291, prosecutorial discretion is dumb, whores should get raped/assaulted/murdered, and any flexibility in the system to limit rape/assault/murder of whores is wrong because what they do is against the law, and therefore evil.
There is a "needed the money for my starving family" and "he deserved to die for raping my daughter" exception in criminal law.
You have to tough it out to a jury trial, though.
293, tone down the shrillness a little please. Thanks.
293:
You could use a mustache ride, no?
293: we're not talking about someone who got raped. We're talking about someone who AGREED TO AGGRESSIVE PHYSICAL SEXUALITY with the guy. She agreed to be hit on the butt. This is not the same as if he'd hit her OUT OF NOWHERE. It is also not the same as her getting beat up or raped or killed.
The fact that she brought this bull to the police makes women who have ACTUALLY been horribly abused and who are ACTUALLY in a bad situation (like the women you describe) have a harder time when it comes to trial and prosecution.
Saying that she should face charges for her behavior is NOT the same as saying it would be OK to beat her up. Saying that she opened the door to getting hit in one place by agreeing to be hit in another is NOT the same as saying it is ok to rape her. Those things would NOT be ok.
But let's continue to see whatever we want from what someone else said. Pathetic.
~283
283, either sex workers can go to cops when they are (or hell, even just when they erroneously think they are) assaulted without fear of criminal prosecution or they can't. You can't have it both ways.
Is your point really just "you agreed to have rough sex, don't go crying to the police about a little vision loss?"
We're not talking about some poor abused sex slave here. Show me someone forced into having sex for money and you'll see a LOT more compassion out of me. Those are victims of circumstance who are not afforded the same choice as someone who get into a top ten law school.
She had the power in the situation. She didn't have a pimp. She placed the ad. She responded to it. She agreed to be hit. She was in control. What you're talking about, 298, is NOT the same thing at all.
She was not a "sex worker", she was an idiot who chose to break the law instead of getting a real job to pay for law school. Don't act like there aren't places hiring. The economy may be bad, but take a walk around Ann Arbor -- getting a job near UM law is not nearly as difficult as other parts of the country.
She had options, she made the wrong choice, she needs to face the consequence.
~283
This woman has been publicly humiliated, her career is likely ruined, and she faces criminal prosecution. It seems to me like that is a sufficient consequence for any mistake she might have made. Yet, a bunch of sanctimonious assholes feel entitled to call her a whore and point out how stupid she is. At this point, there is no purpose served by piling on her other than blatant lack of empathy, compassion, or basic human feeling. I think you all should be ashamed of yourselves.
298 - clearly you are not comfortable with the vast amount of gray area in the law. We have prosecutorial discretion for the situations when someone is forced to be a sex slave or something. There is also always jury nullification. Someone who chooses to be a prostitute should be willing to accept the consequences. She made this decision and she has to live with it. Is life hard? Sure it is. But that isn't an excuse. Its hard for me to pay my way through law school, but I do it. My parents don't co-sign my loans and I don't have anyone helping me out but me. 283 is right, it comes down to accountability. When you make the decision to do something illegal you shouldn't be able to get out of it just because something bad happened to you. If you are selling drugs and someone steals your crack you can't go to the cops to report it. I don't think that anyone would make the argument that drug dealers who even get assaulted during a drug deal should be able to report the assault without facing charges for slinging drugs.
Oh, I get it, you support "sex slaves", i.e., girls who are forced into the business, but not "sex workers" more broadly, including girls who choose it. Because you think it's an invalid choice. Got it.
Double standards aside, you're ducking the question: should prostitutes be able to report an assault (or something that seems like an assault to them) to the cops without being charged for prostitution?
(a) Yes, we care about deterrence of violent crime more.
(b) No, prostitution is bad, suck it up.
(c) "Sex slaves" should, but not any other kind of prostitutes, and this distinction should be determined by the police to whom the crime is reported.
Do you really mean (c)?
Also, when you say she agreed to it and she had the power, do you mean that once she consented to getting spanked any sort of assault was fair game? If he had, say, instead of just causing vision problems, broken her jaw? Still OK, still should be arrested if she reports it? Where's the line? And if there is no clear line, wouldn't it be better to error on the side of deterring violent crime?
300 - she should be publicly humiliates, and her career should be ruined. I am entitled to call her a whore because I didn't break the law to pay tuition or for any other reason. She does not deserve to become a lawyer and she does deserve to be punished for her crimes. I will have sympathy and compassion for her once she has owned up to what she did and paid the price. No one is above the system no matter how sympathetic their story is. And I am not conceding that her story is in any way sympathetic.
301 -- Please tell me where you're finding these loans that don't require a co-signer. When I was doing my loans last time (and granted, I needed a bank that'll go over the $180K total indebtedness threshold--like you said, life is hard), there wasn't a single one. In fact, there was only one that would lend at all, at any rate, with any co-signers.
I am comfortable with the idea of prosecutorial discretion, i.e., the prosecutor choosing not to charge someone arrested for an offense. I am also, however, comfortable (or at least comfortable-ish) with the idea of police discretion, and think that as a matter of policy, this was a good candidate for such discretion.
The analogy to drug dealing is misleading because the enterprises that distribute drugs are so interwoven with violent crime that treating any one transaction as non-violent is difficult. However, even here there is some overlap--if a drug dealer walked into a precinct to rat out some other drug dealers, he'd have very good chances of getting lenient treatment precisely for the same reason as the prostitute should: leniency in this case will prevent violent crime in the future. The extent of the leniency is different because drug dealers are typically confessing to offenses much more severe than internet prostitution, but the basic logic remains.
Accountability isn't a divine virtue, the goal of the system shouldn't be to make sure that everyone get's what's coming to them, and it's certainly not the job of those heaping opprobrium upon this girl to give her justice. We value accountability for what it gives us, and I've yet to see an argument that accountability for this girl gives us something that outweighs the societal interest in deterring violence against prostitutes.
303 - I think you are missing the point of my comment. I'm not passing judgment on whether or not her career should be ruined or whether or not she should be prosecuted. I'm simply pointing out that it’s probably a more than sufficient consequence for her actions. You feeling superior only serves to make you feel better and her feel worse. Which, as far as I'm concerned, makes you a pretty shitty person.
Also, I'm not sure exactly why your compassion is contingent on her owning up to what she did. I'm pretty sure a big reason for the criminal justice system is to make sure that people pay their debts to society. It sounds like you think this woman owes something to you personally.
Maybe you should be a little more concerned with your own moral fallings before you go about judging others.
303
303 -- What has she done to you that you want to hurt her? Why do you care about deferrence to the law that you would want her career to be ruined because of it? Why is it important to you that she not get away with it? What does it mean to "deserve" to be a lawyer?
She's a whore, end of story. And she shouldn't be admitted to any bar. This profession is enough of a mess; we don't need this tramp.
What I can't help but wonder is whether she was trying to set herself up for a civil suit against the guy.
At first I found all the "mustache ride" comments silly and slightly annoying....by the time I got to comment 191 though I was laughing out loud in the library....it continued to be comic gold after that. Kudos to the mastermind behind the mustache ride attack!
305 - She does owe something to me personally. She owes something to everyone personally just like everyone else who breaks the law. The criminal justice system is supposed to represent "the people" and I am one of them. People need to stop viewing the legal system as some nebulous detached entity. we all need to be a little more involved, and yes, feel personally invested in the operations of our justice system.
306 - see above. I care about deference to the law because without deference to the law society breaks down, and I don't want to live in a place like that. It is important to me that she doesn't get away with it just like it is important to me that no one gets away with a crime. The more people that get away with crimes the greater the punishment has to be to serve as an effective deterrent to criminal activity. Because the penalties for crimes can only go so high it is important that as few people get away with crimes as possible. And someone deserves to be a lawyer by playing by the rules. Work within the system that we have established and you deserve to be a lawyer. Whore yourself out on craigslist and you do not deserve to be a lawyer.
309 = 303, sorry.
Well, as long as we cleared that up, prude. I'd take 100 whores over one sanctimonious moralizing freak like you, if only because whores can remember your humanity much more easily that you recall theirs.
309, even if I were to agree with you that she owes a personal debt to you because she broke the law, I'm not sure exactly why that gives you or anyone else in this thread the right to humiliate her further. If she owes a debt to society, and you by extension, it should be paid through the system. Nothing is served by calling her a "stupid whore" other than schadenfraude
305
311, your comment makes no sense. Who are you talking too?
I'm not sure what the debate is about anymore. I think we can all agree on the important aspects of this story: (1) she broke the law, (2) idiotically turned herself into the police, and (3) needs to face the consequences of her decisions, which includes failing the character and fitness exam.
Now I personally am not empathetic to her plight. I have full loans at a school similar to Michigan. I signed for my loans without a co-signer (yes, they exist 304) and am looking at $180K in debt when I'm done. In my mind, there's an easy way out and a hard way out. I could slang drugs or run scams. It would make my life much better right now.
There are a lot of apologists posting about this. I'm sure she has her reasons and I don't even consider what she did was immoral. I'm not sure that matters. This was a calculated move to illegally make money for her law school loans. She could have stripped or made money in a LOT of other ways. I don't feel sorry for her at all; that strikes me as extremely paternalistic.
So Michigan does suck.
~OSU Alum
So Michigan does suck.
~THE Ohio State University Alumnus
302 - Yes. Without question I think CHOOSING TO BREAK THE LAW is an invalid choice. It has nothing to do with sex. If they legalized the sex trade then people who CHOOSE to go into it should have legal protection for things that happen to them just like people who are forced.
Until then, someone who CHOOSES to break the law and gets harmed while doing it SHOULD face legal consequences. How is this so hard to face?
There is nothing sanctimonious about. You screw up, you face consequences. The people defending this lazy, entitled, law breaker are the ones who are wrong with the legal system and this country.
Its not about having compassion. She made a dumbass choice when she had a plethora of other options. She didn't NEED to do it. Have compassion for the people who need it - not the squeaky wheels of society.
~283
It is completely unacceptable to call our classmate a “whore”, or any of the other various vile, patently sexist epithets that have been hoisted here. I am appalled that ANY student at this school would spew such vitriol, let alone fellow female law students, who should understand better than most its profound destructive power. Women in our profession are disproportionately and unfairly vulnerable to this sort of pernicious reputation attack, and regardless of what this young woman may have done, ALL of us should be circumspect about contributing to the problem.
Please endeavor to moderate your language and (dare I dream?) maintain some modicum of civility.
That said, I feel it’s appropriate to point out that neither side of this debate has the market cornered on sanctimoniousness. “Defense counsel” have adopted a comparably strident and at times offensive tone. While I think that you have the better of the arguments in many ways, I’d urge you not to allow your wider philosophy on public policy to unduly sway your evaluation of this particular situation.
It’s undoubtedly true that the possibility of criminal prosecution deters reporting of physical abuse, and that leads to unnecessary danger of violence borne by sex workers, disproportionately women. And yes, there should be systemic safeguards in place to help overcome the problem. But that doesn’t necessarily mean we should adopt a bright-line rule shielding the victim from prosecution for the laws they’ve broken. Whatever rule we adopt to deal with the problem should probably take some account of the individual circumstances.
This individual is not a ‘sex worker’ in any meaningful sense of the word. She’s a highly privileged student at a Top-10 law school who engaged in illicit activity in her spare time. And before you argue that we “don’t know her circumstances”: I come from a very deep socioeconomic hole myself, and I know damn well how lucky I am to be here and how EASY I have it now that I am. I submit that if you think that ANYONE at this school doesn’t qualify as highly privileged, you need to step back and re-evaluate.
Holding this individual up as a victim of oppression and “circumstances” is not only laughable, but vaguely offensive. Equating her situation with the legitimately horrifying plight of many REAL sex workers in this country is manifestly ridiculous… even irresponsible.
Please try to maintain some perspective. While nobody deserves to be pilloried the way she has been here, I think it’s unjustified to suggest that she should be exempt from prosecution, or that any measure of social disapprobation is unreasonable.
-Another Michigan 2L
318 Makes me yawn.
---------------
whore
noun
1. a woman who engages in sexual intercourse for money
verb
1. work as a prostitute
2. have unlawful sex with a whore
3. compromise oneself for money or other gains; "She whored herself to Hollywood"
---------------------
Did I miss something, or is she a whore? She's a WHORE.
IT IS NOT SEXIST TO CALL A WHORE A WHORE. It IS, however, ridiculous that we can't call the sky blue, up up, or a whore a whore. SHE and HER ACTIONS are what makes it harder on women. SHE is the cause of her troubles -- not someone calling her what she is -- which is a whore.
Bravo, 319, bravo.
Also, 318, maybe if you put your thoughts into concise bullet outline form, I'd understand what you are trying to say. It's finals time, you know. Thanks.
P.S. Michigan blows. It's too cold here. And the people are most definitely not attractive.
- Another Michigan 2L
320
you're a tool. fag.
not cool, 321, not cool.
see infra:
http://www.thinkb4youspeak.com/
-Another Michigan 2L
318, when you say "our profession" do you mean lawyers or sex-workers. I'm assuming you mean sex workers because as a 2L you are not yet a lawyer and have no claim on that profession. Try to be more specific next time, whore.
319-
Are you really arguing that a word isn't offensive because it's in the dictionary? Or that there's nothing discriminatory or particularly demeaning of women in the use of the word?
Oh yes, I forgot, this is the internet.
My message was intended for those actually engaged in the discussion. I'm not talking to your kind.
-318
Fine I will stop using the word "whore." From now on I will be substituting "cock-gobbling-cum-bucket." Unless you would prefer that I go back to using the word "whore."
323-
There's a difference?
-318
325-
That really isn't an effective alternative. The latter description doesn't discern those who accept remuneration for their services from those who do not.
Please be more specific.
Of course, you could just use the accepted terminology: "sex worker."
But don't let me stifle your creativity.
-318
326 - yes, sex-workers stop fucking their clients after they die.
-323
318, your guilt (and too much time with Mackinnon--your post sounded like a rad-fem "women can't legitimately choose to be prostitutes" bit) is showing. Poor folk and "sex slaves" and the underprivileged don't have the market cornered on "sex worker" status. I don't know what she has or hasn't done for money, nor how she self-identifies, but it sure sounds like she's a sex worker, even if she's not manning a street corner to feed her family.
As for bright-line prosecution shields, I still haven't heard an argument against them (except for the crazy fascist nonsense about respecting the law for its own sake). Other than emphasizing that violence against sex workers affects women disproportionally (which might be false and certainly seems irrelevant), you haven't offered an argument.
Equating her situation with that of other sex workers is reasonable not because they're socioeconomically comparable but because any sex worker who read that article in the AAN is going to think of it the next time she has trouble at work. Practically, the equation of the two situation isn't in either of our hands--cops are dismissive of violence towards sex workers is the not-especially-nuanced message that article sent.
Thanks, however, for showing that 283 and I really don't have the market cornered on sanctimony or self-righteousness.
323-
That would depend on the sex worker, wouldn't it?
-318
318 - I've been in the discussion MUCH longer than you and the word being in the dictionary doesn't make it not offensive -- the fact that HER actions make HER a WHORE is what makes it not offensive.
It is offensive to call a woman a whore because she bothers or annoys you. It is offensive to call a woman a whore because you think she sleeps around. It is NOT offensive to call a woman a whore when she sells her body for money. That is called a proper use of the term "whore".
Sincerely yours,
283/319
329- Where in my post did you find the suggestion that women can't legitimately choose to be prostitutes? And equating me with "rad-fem" philosophy of MacKinnon isn't taking the discussion anywhere.
And I'm glad my "guilt" is showing- It means I haven't got my head quite so far up my own ass as you do.
I was incorrect to say that she's not a "real" sex worker. But why is it necessary ( or even defensible) to lump all sex-workers together as if they're a single undifferentiated class? Are you arguing that the problem of violence against sex workers doesn't fall disproportionately on the "street-walking" set? Even if that were true, couldn't one argue that those sex workers are also likely be members of under-protected groups, and therefore more vulnerable?
Bright-line prosecution shields are objectionable because they overshoot their legitimate justification. We shouldn't immunize crimes from prosecution where the perpetrator alleges physical abuse without considering whether the individual situation merits the break from prevailing policy. There's nothing "fascist" about that... though I appreciate the characterization.
-318
319-
Your own terminology belies your position. "... when SHE sells HER body for money."
The point is that "whore" as a word has become offensive. Its use carries all of the negative connotations you've pointed out, and it's used almost exclusively as a disparagement for women. So why do you insist on using it? Isn't "prostitute" sufficiently reprobative?
-318
318 -- your denial of the legitimacy of her choice was where you were insisting that she is somehow not a "real" sex worker and insisted that she was just "a highly privileged student . . . who engaged in illicit activity in her spare time", as if that made it more ok to assault her or somehow was relevant to the discussion. You've backed off this (and related) points in you second post, so we can let it drop.
It's true that sex workers are not one uniform group, and ideally policy might be tailored accordingly. Practically, there are two problems with this: (i) the discretion is in the hands of the police, whose attitude towards sex workers is apparent, and (ii) the signal sent by the enforcement of this policy is certain to be unclear, i.e., some of the sex workers whom you would shield will think they are among the sex workers whom you wouldn't shield, and will be deterred from reporting. More plainly, some sex workers reading the quote from that cop won't report, even if he'd treat them differently because of their circumstances. In other words, there'll be either overshooting or undershooting of the goal, and I'd rather error on the overshooting side because immunizing an extra sex worker from prosecution seems less costly to me than deterring an extra report of violence. If you can show me how a more precisely-calibrated immunity shield can work, I'd love to hear it.
Oh, and the "fascist" bit was about crazy @317, not you.
--329
318 - your comments are EXACTLY the kind of apologist hedging that makes Michigan a laughingstock at times like this. Don't call the poor girl a whore -- no. There is one person in all this mess who makes women look bad and its the whore.
Who the hell to you think you are telling me or anyone else how to talk? Take your elitist bullshit somewhere else.
-319
Oh, and 318, 283/319 means it--she's been calling women whores to feel better about herself MUCH longer than you. So there.
336 is hilarious. Ignoring that whole "calling women whores who aren't whores if offensive" point I made so conveniently helped that joke.
But tell us, 283/319, is it offensive to call women bitches who aren't bitches? How about sluts if they aren't sluts?
319-
"Apologist hedging"?
But I agree, sparring over terminology probably isn't the best use of time- there are "bigger fish to fry". But it's not meaningless. I'm not trying to "tell you how to talk", I'm just asking you to consider that what you say and how you say it matters. Why tear your classmate up in such a crude fashion?
The word is offensive. To me. And to other people. What's the point?
318
What she did is offensive. It hurt the reputation of the school not simply because of her illegal actions but because she didn't think to consult a lawyer before going to the police or consider the consequences of her actions.
SHE acted in a way that hurts all her classmates. It was selfish and ignorant and I think she deserves all the crap she gets. So I will use whatever term I want to describe her AS LONG AS it is a real and true definition, which it is.
Check the back-thread, 318, we've covered much of this ground before. The point of tearing her up is to get revenge for the injury done to 319 by breaking the law. 319 is vindicating her claims to a just society by creating a greater deterrent to prostitution through making prostitutes feel bad. See supra at 309.
Close - a greater deterrent to illegality and public acts of mindless stupidity through ridicule. Were prostitution legal, which it should be, that would be a different story.
329-
I didn't mean to cast doubt on her legitimacy, merely whether she's a good candidate for the non-prosecution argument. If anyone ought to remain subject to prosecution in this situation, this case seems like a good candidate.
I feel you on the over-under deterrence argument, but I'm less convinced that a finer distinction would require vesting complete discretion in the police. I think the argument you're making may prove too much: wouldn't it serve equally well to justify immunizing other (perhaps less silly) crimes?
I think that if a bright-line rule is adopted, the Police and the courts will just modulate it with hyper-technical definitional restrictions, so it's probably preferable to address the "tailoring" concerns up front.
-318
This reminds me of that song by The Prodigy back in the day. What was it called again? Oh yeah, Firestarter. Classic
OK, I'm done. 318 and I seem close to on the same page, 283 and I don't have enough common ground to keep up a conversation, it's after 2am, I hate the tax final for which I should be studying, I'm going to sleep. Ciao.
342-
There's nothing wrong with that theory. What's distasteful to me is that you're leveraging sexism to do it.
I mean, if the "underlying" criminal transaction were credit-card fraud, you could go ahead and call her a "thief", but it wouldn't deliver nearly the same effect. Why do you think that is?
As far as making Michigan a "laughingstock"; do you figure that having her fellow students jump online and flog their classmate for being a "whore" helps the situation?
-318
Eliav’s actions are consistent with the sexual mores and practices of his home country, Israel. See "UM Prof. Yaron Eliav & Sexual Slavery in Israel" at zionistsout.blogspot.com
318, you and I have a very different view of sexism. I think that all people should be held accountable for their actions. I've read stories about male prostitutes and used the term whore as and in that circumstance it is purely slang.
What I figure is that when a law student goes to the police and tells them she (or he) took part in a crime and doesn't expect some fall out then they are a disgrace and the legal profession is better without them. I also think that people who attempt to defend them are a major part of the reason our profession is viewed as poorly as it is in many circles.
I agree that it is sexist to call a woman who IS NOT selling her body for money a whore. Largely because men are rarely called whores in the slang. That being said, there is, unequivocally, NOTHING sexist about calling someone what they are. It is the appropriate term and your high and mighty attitude does not serve you well when you attempt to defend the pitifully stupid.
I have infinite compassion for someone in a bad way or even someone on a slippery slope - but flat out, choosing to do this stupid illegal thing was laziness. It was not wanting to get a real job and be law abiding because its easier to have sex. Its pathetic and so are the people who defend it -- regardless of it a man or a woman does it.
Will the university take any sanctions against Eliav? I wonder if he will be forced to "resign" Which might happen! I think the university would want to distances himself from this scandal as much as possible.
For the ladies on this Board...would a nice, leisurely mustache ride help?
whats is a mustache ride?
http://www.letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=moustache+ride
http://www.letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=mustache+ride
350- how sexist! I don't discriminate- I'll welcome the fellas for a mustache ride.
Guys please quit talking this way about my girlfriend who's in this news story. She used to get paid for sex all the time in high school and it was no big deal.
355 lettered in Mustache Riding in high school.
How many of you Michigan State University College of Law students are there?!
A rape joke, Elie? Really? You are such a fucking asshole.
How do you still have this job?
Overheard at a coffee shop in Ann Arbor...
"There is not a single law student that I would pay $300 to have sex with, but there are many I would pay $300 to hit across the face with a belt."
42-7, LOL at Michigan
Why isn't this criminal's name out in the press? I know her first name is Jessica, anyone want to help out with a last name?
Why not start listing the criminal potheads at Michigan too? I believe prostitution and a Class D substance are both misdemeanors in Michigan.
361: While we are at it...we can do a witch hunt too :)
Time to shut down the comments before 361 reveals the victim's name. Come on, Elie, this is out of control.
Time to shut down the comments before 361 reveals the victim's name. Come on, Elie, this is out of control.
364/365, someone who pled no contest to a crime is not a mere victim.
She was the victim of a sexual assault, and now she's being brutalized by self-righteous moralizing pricks on ATL and the law school listserv, and now you want her name out there? Why? So you can shout "whore!" at her on the street too?
Whatever else she did is irrelevant. Her privacy is paramount. Her assailant's name can be revealed because he clearly poses a danger to anyone who would engage in sex with him. She, however, poses no threat to anyone.
You all make me sick.
367 - she may be a victim, she is also a prostitute. Knowing her name would be helpful because all of her potential sexual partners deserve to know that she has been paid for sex. There is a reason they ask you on those blood donation forms if you have had sex with someone who has been paid for sex. You are at an increased risk for contracting STDs which can be potentially life threatening. Alternatively, we want to know her name in case she ever is considered for admission to the bar. She should never be admitted and the legal community should know who she is to make sure of this. Just to be clear, these are the reasons that we should know her name, I am not advocating that anyone posts it on this site. I don't need my comment getting removed.
367, getting slapped on the face a few times during a voluntary session of S&M, where you already allow the client to pay you $300 to hit you with a belt, does not make you a "victim of sexual assault." Your characterization trivializes the plight of all true victims of sexual assault.
The client poses no clear danger since he does not go around "assailing" and slapping random sexual partners in the face, unless the two had already agreed to engage in some sexual acts and S&M. It's like joining in a game of soccer and then suing a fellow player for kicking you on the foot.
So by your logic, an arrested drug dealer who was the victim of counterfeit dollar bills during a drug transaction should have her identity be kept anonymous? After all, her privacy is paramount and whatever else she did is irrelevant.
368, You know what would be easier? Let's just brand her with some kind of letter denoting her crime. Maybe it could be scarlet in color. That way, we can keep the impure in line, right?
Fascist.
Yes, 370, advocating that society at large should know who its criminals are makes one a "fascist." Genius.
370, I think you're missing the whole point of the story. Nobody would care if there was a public trial, she paid a fine, and she did not have to wear any special marking.
369, The newspaper reported that she temporarily lost her vision. When you hit your partner like that, she doesn't go to the cops?
As for the rest, why don't you just obfuscate the issue away? I have no idea what you're talking about regarding the drug deal/counterfeiting hypothetical. Her privacy is important because there are (clearly) so many ignorant fucks out there who would like to see her thrown to the lions.
Anyone else notice a positive correlation between the number of words spent describing S&M and the desire to punish this woman?
No, 371, public shaming and exile from the elite (teh barr) for a crime against their puritanical sexual morality is fascistic.
Society knows who its criminals are to protect potential future victims. Want to explain to us all how that interest is served here?
374: So what is your view on mustache rides?
370 - you're right we should never have public trials and records should never be made available to the public. It would be better if we have a closed door judicial system and no one knew what was going on or who the criminals are. The public nature of our criminal justice system does not only serve to check the abuse of power by the government. It also serves a notice function on the public. It is generally accepted that there is social utility on an open and public criminal justice system. Public participation is just as valid when checking lack of prosecution as when checking abuse of process. So which one of us is the fascist?
-368
373, during the commission of one crime (drug dealing/prostitution), the criminal is the victim of another crime (counterfeit bills/face-slapping) by the other party in the first crime. The criminal goes to the police and tries to report the crime that she was a victim of, while hoping for immunity from the first crime.
Then when she is arrested for the first crime (drug dealing/prostitution), well-meaning third parties argue that her identity should not be disclosed because her privacy interest is paramount and the first crime is "irrelevant" to the second crime (counterfeit bills/face-slapping). The drug dealer's privacy is important because obviously there are people out there who disapprove of drug dealing.
It's not that hard.
374, if you don't like the act being a crime, then work to repeal that. That's a separate issue. Until then, prostitution is a crime, and like all crimes non-juvenile criminals have their identities disclosed.
But at least you're admitting that she is also a criminal (whose identities are disclosed) and not just a victim (whose identities are not disclosed).
374, if she were just a straight-up prostitute, with nothing about any client slapping her, then obviously her identity would be eventually disclosed if she was arrested and found guilty. That is just one consequence of being a criminal -- society deserves to know who committed what crimes.
You don't escape the consequences of being a criminal simply by being the victim of another crime.
She won't escape the consequences. She will have to inform the bar of her conviction and possibly forfeit a career in the legal profession. What does it matter to any of you what her name is?
Is nobody else offended by this situation? A prostitute should have the right to go to police if she is assaulted without fear of being prosecuted for being a prostitute. A lot of municipalities have such a policy.
380 - What if she isn't convicted? What if the prosecutor decides not to proceed with the case? What if she doesn't inform the bar? She wouldn't be the first person to get away with lying on her declaration. This is why we have a public system. The community at large is supposed to keep tabs on things like this to make sure that there is no abuse of the system. how can we do that if we do not know who she is?
Can we all just STOP acting like the woman is a poor little victim? Seriously -- first of all she agreed to rough sex. Then she engaged in rough sex. Then she..... waited for her wounds to heal before reporting it?
Let me say the thing that others have not - I DON'T THINK SHE'S TELLING THE TRUTH. There is a reason the police aren't going forward with the assault charge.
All the people taking this information at face value need to reconsider a career in the law because it is pretty damn unlikely that she was actually assaulted. if she went to the police WHILE SHE STILL HAD VISION PROBLEMS it would be a different thing. But i can go to the police tomorrow and claim I got hit a month ago and there's no way to know if it is true or not.
But no, keep apologizing for her. She makes women, law students, Michigan students and real assault victims all look terrible. She should be ashamed and find a new career to sully.
Dear Law People,
It's true that this is my fault, but it's also true that this has ruined my life.
Most of you probably don't know what it's like to walk home from the psych ward to a room covered in your own blood, and set to the task of cleaning it all up. Or how humiliating and degrading it is to be penetrated against your will. I had no idea what I was walking into, and I'm lucky that I've made it through alive.
A month after I was assaulted, I attempted suicide over the whole mess. I've been unable to sleep or study, for fear of this story being published. I've had PTSD rape dreams. Everything I've worked for my entire life, personally, academically, professionally, has been harmed, and I've spent $20,000 trying to put it all right again. And I have, in fact, been prosecuted and will be required to pay a debt to society. And forget about trying to lie to the bar- all I can hope is that they will see that this was an aberrant moment in the life of a severely depressed, suicidal, isolated person.
But many of you still want a pound of flesh; reading all of these comments makes me want to go crawl under a rock and never come out. I know you'll still want to rub salt in my wounds, but I feel compelled to offer this explanation/defense/vignette:
I worked my way through undergrad on my own, doing crazy hours on top of a full course-load. In fact, I've worked every kind of menial, low-paid job since I was 15; I've never thought I was above any kind of work, or better than anyone else I worked with, because we were all there together. But that semester I'd been so depressed that I could barely even get myself to class, let alone keep up with my finances. In April I realized I couldn't pay the rent for May, and my parents weren't an option. Nor was anyone else, because there weren't really very many people in my life at that time. The housing crisis made it so that I couldn't get an additional loan without a co-signer. I should have found some other way, but at the time none of my thoughts were very healthy.
I love the law just as much as you do, and think about the ways that it shapes the world we live in. I watch movies, and go to the gym when I can. I have dear friends at other law schools who I try to keep in touch with. I'm a quiet, introverted, sensitive person. And I know that God saved my life the night I tried to take it. I also know that God kept the man in that hotel room from killing me, because he was completely out-of-control.
I went to the police the following morning because my vision was blurred from having been hit in the face. The bruises from his belt didn't go away for a week. I later found out that this man had targeted other sex workers, making him a serial sexual sadist. Violent men target sex workers because they know sex workers are isolated, fearful, and ashamed, and won't go to the police.
Going to the police seems like a stupid move, as many of you have pointed out. But I was afraid for the next woman he “contracted with.” And I felt so worthless and used that I didn't care about throwing everything I'd ever worked for. I felt so terrible, and I thought that the police would make it right... that's what the justice system is about, right?
It's clear to me now that the AAPD thinks this is funny. And so do a lot of you. That's why they're not going through with the assault charge.
What I did was wrong, and I'm a criminal. But if this had been any other misdemeanor like drug use/possession, DUI, public intoxication, open container, gambling, vandalism, petty theft, or simple assault, there wouldn't have been a two-page article in the paper. And if you got rid of all of the lawyers who had done one of the above at some point, there'd be a severe shortage.
Despite what many of you have expressed, I am not disease-ridden; my lifetime number is still under 20. I'm recently tested, and I don't have AIDS, herpes, Hep B, syphilis, the clap, or chancroid. But I don't judge those people who have had an STD, because if you're not a virgin, you take a calculated risk every time you have sex. If you don't have a viral std, it's because you're lucky, as I have been.
I'm not writing because I want pity. I'm writing because the people who read this need to understand that the answer is never 'yes' or 'no,' but 'it depends.' Good people do bad things sometimes, for a variety of reasons. The reason we have 'bright line' rules is because there is so much gray out there. And it's only through compassion an understanding that anyone is able to make sense of it all. This crime was a cry for help.
I wish to apologize to my fellow students at Michigan, for having brought negative attention. I hope that you won't shun me, or completely expel me from social/academic/service life at the university. Some may feel that I'm an impostor. Many obviously think about this as if it were some complicated hypothetical on Clark's exam. But I'm still the same girl you knew before. And right now I'm struggling with the prospect of public humiliation. I guess nobody ever said life would be easy.
-A
Umm. A? what does that stand for? and if you are apologizing to your fellow students at Michigan, isnt' there somewhere you could post this that they'll actually see? i'm pretty sure you aren't who you say you are.
yeah if it's really you, post it to lawopen.
Agreed, 385. The facts don't match up.
Of all the responses I've seen on this page, pretending to be the victim is absolutely the worst, lowest most shameless thing I have seen. I hope to find out who posted the fake "I'm the girl from the story" post so I can personally spit in their eye.
In case the shmuck that posted that eight paragraph lie is wondering what tipped anyone off it was this:
//Or how humiliating and degrading it is to be penetrated against your will.//
Neither the girl nor the professor claimed they'd had sex. He slapped her in the face. Whoever you are, you're a bad person.
Ugh, I promised myself I wouldn't get sucked into replying to everyone.
1. 'A' is a reference to the Scarlet letter. If you're at UM, you already know what's up.
2. If I post to lawopen, I do so under my actual name. If I do this, I give the media permission to use it as well. And I really don't need that.
3. "Penetrated" does not just refer to penis-vagina. It also refers to finger-other orifice. I prefer not to get much more detailed, as the memory isn't one I enjoy recounting. The AA News has to be PG about it so they skipped that part, but there was a violent, non-consensual penetrative act that occurred.
4. I figure whatever I write on lawopen will end up here anyways, so I might as well just post it here. News of this post will filter through the law school without me having to use lawopen, just as my name is filtering through the law school without the use of lawopen.
And now, I'm going to start my take-home exam.
-384
I haven't heard your name.
If you're at UM law, you will soon enough. A lot of people already do- that's why they can say that 'A' is not one of my initials.
-384
Your story is very sad, 384. I'm a 2L at MLS, but I don't know you; if I did, I'd try to help you. I hope our paths will cross and I will get the chance; either way, know that there are plenty of students at Michigan who feel sad for you and don't think that what you did was wrong or bad. For every loud, angry asshole on lawopen or ATL there is someone who feels sympathy for you and wishes you well.
I completely agree with 392. As another student at MLS, I wish that I could help you and somehow make this whole experience less awful for you. I don't know who you are, but please know that there are members of your community who support you and wish nothing but the best for you.
a' if that is really the case, find a friend and have them post it to lawopen, anyone here would do that for you if you asked.
Thank you 392 & 393. Your words are very touching. The thought of sitting in class next semester with a hundred people who know what happened is mortifying, but you've managed to make it a little less so.
-384
Agree with 394. The only thing that stops me from doing it right now is the apprehension that if this is a fake, posting it will cause the real girl more anguish.
To 394 & 396:
If either of you email me, I'll email you back, and give you permission to post to lawopen. If you know my name, you can find my unique name at the university directory listing. To be honest, I'm too afraid to find out who's still a friend; I imagine a number of people wish to distance themselves from me, and that will be painful. So I haven't talked to any law student directly about this.
-384
Can anyone please help me get this onto lawopen? If you know who I am, find my uniquename and send me an email. It feels like an imposition to select someone myself.
-384
384, I don't know who you are, but if you email me at amm14a at hotmail dot com I will post it for you.
--392/396
Just wanted to confirm that the message went out to the listserv, it's legit, and all of you hyper-judgmental cockgoblins can suck it.
384, please know that there are many people in this community who want to make the situation easier for you in any way possible . . . we just tend to be a little less shrill than the stock-and-pillory crowd.
-- Michigan 3L
Comment removed by moderator.
To everyone hating on 384: go to hell. I'm not, normally, that vindictive a person, but your continued cruelty and contumely also makes me wish that something half this bad would happen to you, so you could experience everyone else mocking you.
To 384: I am impressed by your courage in writing this. Hopefully some people on here, not to mention in Hutchins, could learn something from you.
- Michigan 1L
384/A:
I do know who you are and I hope you pull through this OK. The mental health services on campus are supposed to be great; I suggest using them.
BTW, unfortunately, your name is available via a FOIA request, and the press doesn't have to redact it (see Gertz v. Robert Welch, Inc., 418 U.S. 323 (1974)). But it seems like they don't want to publish it anyway.
And if the man really did assault you, and rape you, and you think you can prove it, bring a civil suit.
something half this bad happen to me
you mean suffering such a severe lapse in judgment that even though i am at one of the best law schools in the world, i couldn't take out another loan or call a suicide hotline but whored myself out on craigslist?
yeah that would be fucking awful.
you don't need a FOIA to get jdc's name. i never knew it, yet it took about 20 seconds to get it online from ann arbor.
-michigan 3L summer starter (peace out!)
Wait, so 404, let's imagine you believe in mental illness. In that context, your post sounds entirely sincere! A bout of depression so bad as to ruin your judgment to that extent is fucking awful indeed.
401, 403, 404:
Yes, I was aware all along that the information could be easily accessed online. And frankly, I would have been disappointed in the legal research skills of the people here at Michigan if someone hadn't figured it out in like, a day. The newspaper didn't publish it because I begged them not to. But with his name, you can find my name, so it wasn't much of a victory.
384@mail.com
404, I'm amused by the fact that you don't hesitate to say the things you said in an anonymous forum (including her initials, you asshole) yet you are silent on lawopen.
It's ok, I understand, I'd be embarrassed to be that much of a prick too.
-MLS 2L
404, I'm amused by the fact that you don't hesitate to say the things you said in an anonymous forum (including her initials, you asshole) yet you are silent on lawopen.
It's ok, I understand, I'd be embarrassed to be that much of a prick too.
-MLS 2L
407/8:
i'll let lawopen be the echo chamber apologist for criminal behavior that it is.
384, do you seriously think that you can pass C&F after this? you committed crimes for financial gain while in law school
-404 megaposter
409, why do you feel compelled to out 384 and point out to her problems she already knows she's going to have? Does it make you feel good to rub salt in her wounds?
384 did something wrong. She knows that. Most of us think that. But that doesn't mean we should all stand around and point fingers. It's going through the criminal justice system and through review by the law school administration. You think that's not enough, and that she needs to be callously taunted by her peers?
-Yet Another MLS 2L
410, i was asking 384 a legitimate question.
thanks.
404:
Since you know who I am, I'd appreciate the opportunity to address you directly. As it is, I feel like this is an inappropriate forum to seriously reply to a classmate with lingering concerns. Toss an email to my uniquename account, and I'd gladly converse with you about my experience, and the C&F ramifications.
-384
Don't worry, folks. 404 is a real knuckle scraper IRL as in here. We'll be rid of him in a few days!
384 should seek an advisory opinion from the c&f committee of the state bar where she wishes to practice. At least NY lets students file requests if they've been convicted of misdemeanors. Given how expensive law school is, it'd be silly to pay for three more semesters of it with no hope of admittance.
See, e.g., http://law.fordham.edu/rd/documents/admissions/CharacterandFitnessBrochure.pdf .
384,
i'll do that in a little bit, heading out to lunch
hope i don't get stoned as i head out of Legal Research!
-40x
The incompetence on this board is overwhelming. Above all else, this woman desperately needs to hire a lawyer.
384, 404 here.
emailed your umich.
384:
I admire your courage. Going to the police was certainly not the easy thing to do, but it was the right thing to do. Well done.
God bless you!
IHS
I'm appalled at the slut-shaming I'm reading on here. There is truly no other reason for you to out her, and no bullshit first year textbook talk is going to change that. Disgusting. 384 and those who feel compassion for her, the best to you all.
I'm sorry, but the story just doesn't add up. If you were assaulted there would be physical evidence to back it up, assuming that you went to the police the next day, which you've now said that you did. There would be evidence on your face (because a slap that hard would leave a mark) and that could be gleaned from an examination at the hospital.
If you're actually saying the police didn't let you get examined at the hospital and didn't pursue this then you have a lawsuit against the Ann Arbor police, which is a pretty extreme thing.
I'm sorry, but I just don't believe it. Here's what I think happened and while I know I'll get attacked for this its the God's honest truth about what I think and I'd say it to your face if I knew who you were:
I think you decided to make your money selling sex. Then I think you were struck with an idea. It would make significantly more money to win a lawsuit against an assailant than to continue selling services at $300 a piece. So you trumped up a charge after agreeing to a day of rough sex. The police saw through it and now you're in trouble.
That's what I think happened. I'm sorry if its not true, but that's sure what it sounds like. I've never heard of a newspaper leaving out an aspect of an attack like you said they did. A2 news does not force itself to be PG - it reports news. So, no, I think that if you are the person involved and not someone just stirring up trouble that you probably are telling a lie.
Like I said - I don't know who you are. I don't want to know. I have NO URGE to think that way about a classmate of mine - but the fact is, this story does not add up as told.
I'm sorry, but the story just doesn't add up. If you were assaulted there would be physical evidence to back it up, assuming that you went to the police the next day, which you've now said that you did. There would be evidence on your face (because a slap that hard would leave a mark) and that could be gleaned from an examination at the hospital.
If you're actually saying the police didn't let you get examined at the hospital and didn't pursue this then you have a lawsuit against the Ann Arbor police, which is a pretty extreme thing.
I'm sorry, but I just don't believe it. Here's what I think happened and while I know I'll get attacked for this its the God's honest truth about what I think and I'd say it to your face if I knew who you were:
I think you decided to make your money selling sex. Then I think you were struck with an idea. It would make significantly more money to win a lawsuit against an assailant than to continue selling services at $300 a piece. So you trumped up a charge after agreeing to a day of rough sex. The police saw through it and now you're in trouble.
That's what I think happened. I'm sorry if its not true, but that's sure what it sounds like. I've never heard of a newspaper leaving out an aspect of an attack like you said they did. A2 news does not force itself to be PG - it reports news. So, no, I think that if you are the person involved and not someone just stirring up trouble that you probably are telling a lie.
Like I said - I don't know who you are. I don't want to know. I have NO URGE to think that way about a classmate of mine - but the fact is, this story does not add up as told.
I'm sorry, but the story just doesn't add up. If you were assaulted there would be physical evidence to back it up, assuming that you went to the police the next day, which you've now said that you did. There would be evidence on your face (because a slap that hard would leave a mark) and that could be gleaned from an examination at the hospital.
If you're actually saying the police didn't let you get examined at the hospital and didn't pursue this then you have a lawsuit against the Ann Arbor police, which is a pretty extreme thing.
I'm sorry, but I just don't believe it. Here's what I think happened and while I know I'll get attacked for this its the God's honest truth about what I think and I'd say it to your face if I knew who you were:
I think you decided to make your money selling sex. Then I think you were struck with an idea. It would make significantly more money to win a lawsuit against an assailant than to continue selling services at $300 a piece. So you trumped up a charge after agreeing to a day of rough sex. The police saw through it and now you're in trouble.
That's what I think happened. I'm sorry if its not true, but that's sure what it sounds like. I've never heard of a newspaper leaving out an aspect of an attack like you said they did. A2 news does not force itself to be PG - it reports news. So, no, I think that if you are the person involved and not someone just stirring up trouble that you probably are telling a lie.
Like I said - I don't know who you are. I don't want to know. I have NO URGE to think that way about a classmate of mine - but the fact is, this story does not add up as told.