first, sadly

Comment removed by moderator.

IP lit and IP transactional work are two very different worlds. You can't make a blanket statement about IP being a safe haven without differentiating between the two first.

Too offensive. Please moderate.

I work at Fish, the 30 support staff is true, the 40 associates bit is not. I have no idea where they came up with that.

Hell no don't moderate. That's the best used car listing ever!

You know what would have make this post better? Including the number of associates at the firm (or at least a rough approximation). I don't know what a "sizeable portion" is.

#6,
How could you possibly know that? Fish has many offices. Are you keeping inventory of all of the attorneys daily?

What about Darby & Darby? Stealth layoffs there...

Fish also has a corporate practice. We need to know the breakdown before making any assumptions about IP not being safe, because, in fact, IP attorneys ARE safe. Everyone else is screwed.

Someone please find out what practice areas these associates are from. They could be from corporate.

Please moderate #7. Swearing does not belong on a professional blog like ATL.

I work at Fish. No attorney layoffs, stealth or otherwise. At least none in IP.

Funny that the "moderated" comments don't fully disappear, at least when posted by those that are registered members. Just click on his handle. Great ad, by the way.

These comments are not intelligent enough. Please moderate.

14: Proof?

it is going to be more than 40 associates. like i said in an earlier posting, FR tried to meet the 160k pay scale. people defending it said that they have a lot of litigation. they do, but not enough to support the low end prep/pros work at the firm. they already froze (and reduced) the pay scale early last year. they even have tried to move away from being a boutique to doing more general practice stuff (like bringing in tax and corporate people). but, the industry still knows of them as a boutique, just a really big one.

a lot of great people there. i hope they are okay.

14 Here:

I still have my job.

For those still in the dark, Fish has several corporate-oriented offices in Texas that represent a significant part of the firm. It is no longer the Boston -based IP boutique with a NY IP satellite, nd hasn't been for a few years. So yeah, the layoffs may be focused in their corporate practice.

As for 6 and 14: Do you REALLY think that all of the associates who were stealthily laid off are going to report their status to you immediately? LOL The point of stealth layoffs is that often fellow associates don't even know about them, and the axed associates quietly try to find new positions while appearing to be gainfully employed in their present firm. That is the deal with the devil that is a stealth layoff. Just look around and see if there are a few associates who are putting in less face time at the office over the coming weeks.

"On one hand, it would be pretty would strange for a firm to internally announce firing 30 staff while going the stealth route with 40 attorneys. On the other hand, "strange" doesn't even begin to describe what we've already seen in 2009. "

Brilliant work Elie.....

I am an associate/paralegal at one office in one practice area of Fish therefore of course I can speak to an absolute certainty about the up to the minute personnel situation at Fish firm-wide.

Please moderate #13. Abbreviations do not belong on a professional blog like Above the Law.

GIMME GIMME GIMME

-Greedy Associate

20- people talk. What are you, a law student? This stuff always gets around.

No attorney layoffs at FR.

How come there are no posts about the total collapse of the document review projects? These are hard working attorneys who have put many years of hard work in and now they are out of work and looking for help.

I don't know what's worse checking my stock portfolio or visiting this site to see which one of my friends has been laid off today....

Nice try IP haters. DING!

6 and 14, either you guys have no friends at the firm or you are too busy drinking the F&R cool aid. Fish has been laying off across all practice groups and all levels, partners included.

I work at Fish and I know people who have been laid off in 5 different offices. They were mostly IP lit people with some prosecutors sprinkled in. The people let go also exceeded billable goal.

Fish conducts its attorney layoffs by telling 4-5 attorneys to leave each week. Each of the attorneys will be from a different office. But they'll dangle carrots in front of the attorneys such as leaving them on the firm web site for X months so that the attorneys won't have incentive to call them out on their shit.

As a side note, I am still employed at Fish. But I really regret coming. The vault ranking about associate satisfaction and quality of life is a complete lie.

Please moderate #24. Saying gimme 3 times in a row is offensive.

"it is going to be more than 40 associates. like i said in an earlier posting, FR tried to meet the 160k pay scale. people defending it said that they have a lot of litigation. they do, but not enough to support the low end prep/pros work at the firm. they already froze (and reduced) the pay scale early last year. they even have tried to move away from being a boutique to doing more general practice stuff (like bringing in tax and corporate people). but, the industry still knows of them as a boutique, just a really big one."

FYI, F&R has met the 160 pay scale and had it for quite some time. They reduced it briefly last year to create a 2 track hours minimum to try to accommodate people who wanted to only bill 1600 hours last year (or something like that), but that policy was harshly criticized by ATL and the policy was reversed in about 3 weeks or so and they went back to the regular 160 pay scale which has remained ever since.

That said, one EASY way for F&R to keep their money is to STOP paying 160k + NY bonuses in Minneapolis, Texas, Delaware, Atlanta, etc, etc. Just a thought.

30 - prove it.

This site has improved dramatically since you started moderating comments. Thanks ATL!

33, I plan to. I have the firm directories from December downloaded. Once the firm directories get updated and the laid off attorneys are taken off the page come Feb., March, and April, I'll post the differences here.

V10 partner here:

Welcome to the future. 60%, tops, of current BigLaw headcount (partners and associates) survive. The good old days don't come back.

35 - Patent prosecutors are being laid off? I work in Atlanta and I am really worried. Especially given the premium we get paid here.

thank elie for not banning me, i'll try not to be so annoying.

*gives elie a high five*

to all the laid off associates...i truly sorry. but on the bright side your life could be worse. take for instance this guy...

http://news.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/2009_01_29_DA_intern_booted_after_arrest:_Cops:_Law_ace__bar_don_t_mix/

i think he's a good lawyer of the day candidate.

-nervous T-10 1L
4 interviews
3 offers
1 sa position

anyone know what grade that rapping/ folk singing Berkeley 1L got?

#6 here, Yes I know there have been layoffs at the firm. But your statement that they get rid of 4-5 each week already debunks the statement that 40 were let go last week.

In any case, the general consensus is that it is about 20, stretching back to around thanksgiving. From what I understand, they got rid of 1 or 2 people per office (some offices had more, some had less). It also didn't matter what your billable hours were, they cut off the weakest link in each office based on performance reviews.

Please moderate #34. Being overly polite is offensive, disingenuous and unprofessional. ATL is a blog for professionals.

I bet 30 works at Finnegan Henderson. I call BS on the entirety of his/her comment.

And if you do work at FR and are unhappy, time to get out of law. You are unfit. I've actually done "biglaw," and from that perspective, FR's QOL and associate satisfaction are fantastic.

35 - i'll be on the lookout

"That may be because the firm is also conducting stealth layoffs of associates."

Or it may not. Really really bad journalism.

That Ninja Hauler ad is the funniest thing I have seen on ATL. Period. I freaking loved it and am pretty confused why it was moderated.

#40, that sounds awfully like economic based layoffs disguised as firings based on performance reviews.

32- it was somewhat doable before the economic collapse. now, not so much. F&R, despite their best efforts, is NOT a 160k firm, especially considering the personnel in their satellite offices (who amazingly and stupidly get paid 160k also). they do not have enough high end litigation to support the scale. if they try to stick with it, which i have no doubt they will do because of the embarrASSment the change would cause, they are going to have to shed associates. if they did all ip litigation, maybe, but they get a lot of ip litigation from their low end preps/pros practice.

my prediction: shed preps/pros guys, shed satellite office associates, reduce total firm headcount, fire non-equity members, go back to being around 230 people total.

no, i dont hate fish, but their economics dont make sense.

A-

Elie is jealous of other ninjas stealing his lunch.

Too bad F&R can't get rid of the some of the pompous a$$e$ they call principals. They make life miserable for associates and feel it is their right to do so.

if "That Ninja Hauler ad is the funniest thing I have seen on ATL" then you must not have been paying attention to the Cravath bonus thread

NT101L, thanks for that link. I saw that dude's name and knew I knew it from somewhere, but I couldn't place it right away. But I'm pretty sure he used to be in ads on the subway as an example of a product of NYC public schools. And HLS "handpicked" him for this internship? Way to uphold that trust, guy. Embarrassing.

39- Boalt doesn't have grades. They have high honors, honors, pass, or no credit.

Please moderate #35. Downloading firm directories is industrial espionage and unprofessional, and does not belong on a professional blog like Above the Law.

Please moderate #35. Downloading firm directories is industrial espionage and unprofessional, and does not belong on a professional blog like Above the Law.

47 - What do you mean "satellite" offices? Fish doesn't have any true satellites. Sure, Boston is bigger and San Diego is well-known, but does that mean every other office is a satellite?

did he get credit for that trash though

Comments not professional enough. Moderate immediately.

Professional Professional

53 - did he get credit for that trash though

Anyone think layoffs are imminent at Cravath? I don't see how the firm can retain all of its current associates and accommodate all incoming associates, considering they had 91 summer associates in 2007 and upped that number to 164 last year. According to NALP, the firm only has 296 associates total. How can a firm, no matter how prestigious it is, increase its associate headcount by around 55% in this climate?

(numbers from http://www.nalpdirectory.com)

Fish is a worse version of the other Minneapolis, all Milwaukee, and many Chicago firms that lunged up the salary ladder after "New York to 160!"

None of these people can afford those rates. Without the ibanks, they may not be affordable in New York. If you run Minneapolis and Milwaukee compensation through a COL calculator, you get insane results. $125K in Milwaukee - which is market - is something like $200K in NYC dollars. New York, of course, used to pay $125 before the credit bubble.

Foley, the Fish of Milwaukee as it were, pays $145,000 in the home office. I think that might be a record in terms of most highly compensated junior associate, especially considering they have low hours targets by most standards.

The Chicago firms aren't as silly, but to the extent NYC scale is paid, it is still much more real money. Few Chicago firms can really afford that.

Minneapolis and Milwaukee should be $90K market and Chicago should be $125K market.

54, fair use...

LAYOFFS!?!? Don't blog about -- LAYOFFS?? You kiddin' me??? LAYOFFS!?!?

61 - You hit the nail on the head. Salaries are going to have to come way down for surviving associates AND partners.

One of the big problems at fish is the division between the prosecutors and the litigators. Both groups have the same billable hour requirement, but it is much harder to bill 1950 hours writing patents than it is to litigate.

The pressure on prosecutors is insane. They typically get a 10k budget, but becuase the bill at ~400 an hour they only really get 25 or so hours to write it. Add in two hours or so of partner review at 600 an hour plus two hours of rewrites and you are left with maybe 20 hours. That means you have to write about 2-3 patents a week to make hours, That is insane. They tell you not to cut your time, but if you go over budget by more than two hours or so you get screamed at.

Clients keep lowering the flat fee they will pay for a patent, yet the firm keeps raising the associates rates.

65 - Cry me a river. If the practice cannot survive in the BIGLAW model, then it should be cut. End of story.

I agree that offices like Twin Cities should not be $160k + NY bonuses. How would they roll it back, though? Is there precedent for this?

65 - So you are asking other associates to subsidize the prosecutors? LOL

65 - Maybe you are correct, but firms like fish usually see the prosecution paractice as a kind of loss leader that brings in the litigations. You would think if that is true you would cut the pros guys a break.

It is a business 69. If a practice is a loss leader, well....

63 - You are a prince among men.

At least some of the rumors about stealth layoffs are bull. I left Fish on good terms for another opportunity but heard later that some thought I was laid off. I heard this same rumor about two others who also left last year. None of those rumors were true. We each left for our own legitimate reasons, none having to do with being laid off.

That said, I know about one Fish office only (DC). There may have been stealth layoffs at other offices.

3 cheers for the new comment policy. I can finally share my thoughts with other like minded professionals and not be vilified. Truly a great victory for all us with class and professionalism.

Houston Attorney

I liked the Ninja Hauler post - I read this not only for news but for something funny to break up my day. Shame on ATL for "moderating" what is otherwise a depressing discussion of a firm that has a name like one of those annoying TV shows about Boston law firms starring William Shatner, have coed bathrooms and only do work pro bono but still have really cool offices.

Also, while on the subject of funny things, how about a story on that D-bag that NT101L posted the link to. Its always funny when people implode - even better when they are from Harvard!

68 - Not subsedize, merely recognize that if it weren't for the prosecutors the firm wouldn't be able to market itself as having x number of PHD's, scientists, etc., which is what gets the work for the litigators. The litigators also rely on the prosecutors in the office to help them understand the technology and to help understand the prosecution history for a case.

Fascinating!

Doc Brown

Hey 65: I'm doing that same prosecution gig. Except that I deal directly with my clients so there's no anxiety over 'hours' or pressure about cuts. No bloviated partners to put up with either. And drafting one application or so per week works out to, well, you do the math.

It's no surprise these frozen margs on the beach taste so good!

Fish & Chips

10 - Are Darby layoffs news?

Firms let associates go all the time- and no one ever wants to believe it's performance related. And now they have a perfect excuse to continue in their denial.

75 - you have NO idea what you're talking about LOL. Litigators need prosecutors to help them understand the prosecution history of a case!?

It sucks people are getting fired.

However, nobody should complain. This is not an argument based on "every sector of the economy is getting laid off." Rather, it is an argument based on "you were greedy and went to the big leveraged firm." You could have sent resumes to 20-50 lawyer sized firms (not talking Keker & Van Nest firms, I'm talking family law practice, small business practice, insurance defense practice). However, they don't pay $160000, which means you cannot go out to $100/meal restaurants for two and other things that people like to do with their money (referring to the "discussion" on the Latham post). Remember folks - it isn't money for nothing. Taking the high-pay, high-risk, high-leverage job almost always ends in misery. The sad thing is nobody bothered to save any money and assumed the gravy train would run forever. Hopefully future generations of lawyers will learn accordingly.

I would rather lose my job than have to pony up my cash in a capital call.

http://endofesq.com/?p=937

"they do not have enough high end litigation to support the scale."

I don't get how you can make this statement? Fish has the most impressive client IP roster in the country. Microsoft, Google, IBM, Apple, Bank of America......

well said #82

"Fish & Chips"... LOL! good one!

@77, Solo Guy: any room for a part-time EE remote prosecution associate in your sweet gig?

84 - Uh, how does a firm go about representing both Apple and Microsoft.
Go take an ethics class.

53: Those sound a lot like grades to me. Suppose that we instead called them A, B, C and F. Same effect, right?

87- Fish does it (representing Apple and Microsoft).

As to Fish letting 40 associates go, most of these rumors are BS. Fish has let some associates go in the last few months- I think it was the lowest performers (not in terms of hours, but in terms of performance reviews) in each office. There is no way that 40 were cut loose in this way- we would have noticed this. Fish offices are generally pretty small, and 40 would be a substantial amount of Fish attorneys to cut loose in one "stealthy" swath. Bullcrap. I say it's more likely that the worst 2-5 performers in each office were asked to find another job, if even that many.

Fish Associate

Confirming Fish does indeed rep both Apple & Microsoft since as while working for another firm in different matters I saw their name on paperwork for both clients.

clients can waive conflicts as long as they are not directly adversarial.

You could represent both MS and Apple in litigations. Apple and MS don't really enforce their patents, but get sued by trolls. I think their interests would be alligned in the vast majority of the patent cases. It might be hard to prosecute both MS and Apple patents, but if you screen off the prosecutor groups I think you would be ok as long as Apple and MS were okay with it.

Besides, MS and Apple actually do collaborate on some stuff, and they cross-license. There is nothing unethical about representing both.

87 is a law student.

53: Those sound a lot like grades to me. Suppose that we instead called them A, B, C and F. Same effect, right?

These comments are far too childish for this blog.

89 - do the math:

(2 to 5) x 12 offices = 24 to 60 stealth layoffs...

you were saying?

Sure, 82. I'd rather killself than work in family law, low end litigation, etc. The idea that we all made a mistake in working for Biglaw, because 10% of us (mainly on the deal side) are out of work is absurd. In 7 years, I've made well in excess of $1 million more at a big firm than I would have made doing insurance defense at a mid or small size firm. And, I would HATE to do that type of work. I not only get paid way more, but I do work that is more challenging and more interesting.

89 - do the math:

(2 to 5) x 12 offices = 24 to 60 stealth layoffs...

you were saying?

84- what the heck are you talking about? almost every two bit prosecution sweat shop can list off clients like that as well. that doesnt mean they give you litigation, or enough of it to maintain a 160k scale for hundreds of associates in second rate markets. despite what you all want to believe, you are not a top tier litigation firm, never have been, never will be. yes, you end up doing a lot of IP litigation, but your overall litigation numbers are laughable when put next to large market GP firms overall litigation numbers. FR is usually going to be someone's second choice, and more so now than ever. why? because just like every other IP boutique, you guys do a poor job of putting people into decision making positions at large corporations. how many GCs in the fortune 100 came from fish? yeah, you are going to get the second rate litigation, and a good litigation every now and then, but face it, you are an IP shop, not a litigation powerhouse.

now, you got me mad because I think the people at fish are awesome, but that comment had to be put into perspective.

Good point 99. The head of Litigation at Fish is married to the head IP GC at Apple, so they got that going for them.

100- what is a head IP GC? Is that the chief IP counsel at apple or are there more than one GCs at Apple? if it is like most other places, the chief gets to make some decisions, but the GC really determines where the high end stuff goes, usually to his or her buddies in the large, biglaw NYC firms they came from.

89- let's see if you say the same thing after your review in the next few weeks, when you hear for the first time how poorly you've been performing

also, there were quite a few non-equity partners that were let go by Fish (I'm seeing all of their resumes come in). I guess those people magically became poor performers after they were promoted.

anybody know the lawyer accused of stealing from invalids

http://endofesq.com/?p=939

89- let's see if you say the same thing after your review in the next few weeks, when you hear for the first time how poorly you've been performing

also, there were quite a few non-equity partners that were let go by Fish (I'm seeing all of their resumes come in). I guess those people magically became poor performers after they were promoted.

The sky is falling!

To anyone who might know, how f*cked is IP transactional work right now?

- interested 2L

Anyone who claims to be a Fish associate that says there haven't been stealth layoffs just hasn't been paying attention. It has been going on for at least a couple months.

And to say that it is solely performance-based is just plain stupid. Do you honestly think F&R would be laying off 2-5 IP litigators per office (which they are) if it wasn't economics-driven? Even people with poorer performance reviews are still a revenue stream if F&R was flush with work. The fact is, we are slow and have been since October, and that means associates have to go.

84- what the heck are you talking about? almost every two bit prosecution sweat shop can list off clients like that as well. that doesnt mean they give you litigation, or enough of it to maintain a 160k scale for hundreds of associates in second rate markets. despite what you all want to believe, you are not a top tier litigation firm, never have been, never will be. yes, you end up doing a lot of IP litigation, but your overall litigation numbers are laughable when put next to large market GP firms overall litigation numbers. FR is usually going to be someone's second choice, and more so now than ever. why? because just like every other IP boutique, you guys do a poor job of putting people into decision making positions at large corporations. how many GCs in the fortune 100 came from fish? yeah, you are going to get the second rate litigation, and a good litigation every now and then, but face it, you are an IP shop, not a litigation powerhouse.

now, you got me mad because I think the people at fish are awesome, but that comment had to be put into perspective.

99- First off, go fuck yourself.

Second, I never said F&R, in general, was a litigation powerhouse. If you compare, as a whole, any V20 firm against F&R in litigation its laughable- we can't compare.

But to say that we are a second rate IP litigation firm is retarded. F&R will always be a first choice when it comes to a top patent litigation case, on par with firms like Weil and Kirkland, and certainly far before other firms further down the list. I dare you to list 5 GP firms who you would consider ahead of F&R to do your IP lit. There's a reason why F&R always ranks #1 or #2 in patent lit, switching places with another IP shop (Finnegan). In the end, that's all we freaking care about. We handle plenty of top notch patent cases. Recall Alcatel Lucent? A thorough whooping of Kirkland on appeal because of "costly lawyering errors". That was through Microsoft whose general counsel is from Covington and Burling (we also handle the bulk of their IP lit). A fantastic overall firm, but not an IP powerhouse by any means. Having worked in-house at big Fortune 100 company, GC's never get directly involved with their IP litigation practices.

84 has no idea what he's talking about. "84- what the heck are you talking about? almost every two bit prosecution sweat shop can list off clients like that as well. that doesnt mean they give you litigation, or enough of it to maintain a 160k scale for hundreds of associates in second rate markets."

---

IP Law & Business, the leading intellectual property magazine, has for the fifth straight year named Fish the top patent litigation firm in the country. The magazine found that Fish handles more patent litigation than any other law firm. The annual survey, which was published in July 2008, ranks firms by the volume of new patent cases filed. Fish was involved in a total of 98 new cases in 2007, 42 percent more cases than the firm's nearest competitor. "

-- In June 2008, Fish was also recognized by IP Law & Business for handling more patent litigation before the International Trade Commission (ITC) than any other firm in the nation. Fish represented companies in one third of all patent cases filed in the ITC in 2007. The firm has topped this survey in three of the four years it has been conducted.

sorry, meant 109 has no idea...really thoughtful comments he makes however.

108- blinded by your love affair with fish, you missed my point. yes, fish is a big fish in a little pond (IP lit), but that pond is not big enough to support 160k salaries for a bloated number of associates, especially when preps/pros sucks the numbers down.

you can spout off all the IP lit and IP stuff you want about fish. i wont disagree with you, but it is a niche firm trying to run with large firms with much more balanced practice areas with clients that consistently pay top dollar. its just not there, sorry.

and anyway, i didnt want to do it, but we all know why fish is ranked high, and that is because they bought out smaller practices and expanded to a point that just from its shear size, it would be at the top. as someone from a GC practice that has had to try to fix some of Fish's crappy patent applications, I can tell you that the quality does not match up with the quality. there are several smaller IP shops in california and DC who do a better job than your firm, both in lit and prosecution. you never seem them because they act as of counsel to larger GC firms.

so get off your friggin high horse.

oh yeah, and good job with that $30M malpractice lawsuit. I would say that is pretty much the only place you are on par with the GP firms.

and 111- you are an arse.

111, "GC firm"?

You mean GP firm?

You had to fix some of Fish's patent applications? LOL you have no idea what you're talking about. How would another firm see an application before it was filed? Maybe a Fish patent came to you in litigation? But then, you're not fixing it... You sound like an idiot 1L who is talking out of his ass.

I would love to hear how Firm X FIXED an application drafted by form Y as part of their "GC practice" at their "GC firm"... LOLWUT?

111, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

113- you are an idiot. number 1, patents are published 18 months after filing (generally, unless request non-pub, etc.). how many patents are issued before 18months. dumbass point number 1.

number 2, the clients that come to us that are pissed at your high fees, poor customer service, and low quality allow us to file a power of attorney with the pto to take over prosecution, even if the case is not published. dumbass point #2.

wow, you really proved my point as to how bad the associates are at fish. thanks for your help.

Gone fishin'

I am angry that you think your firm is a well respected firm and big player! Argghhh! It is NOT! Please admit to yourself that it is not and that you suck so I can go back to being angry about other things.

111, 115--113 here...

First off I don't work at Fish, just pointing out your foolishness.

Second, WTF does the 18 month publishing have to do with anything I said?

Third, let me see if I got this straight: Company X PAID the "high fees" for Fish, then got upset over said high fees and had the in-house patent knowledge to recognize an error in an application, then in reaction to said high fees hired your "GC Firm" to fix the application? uh huh, that makes perfect sense.

I assume you're a 1L studying for the patent bar and so you just learned 2 cool rules about 18 month publishing and power of attorney?

108 - what are you talking about MIcrosoft whopping Kirkland on the Multimedia Paten Trust cases?? Only two of the string of cases has gone up to the Fed Cir on appeal.
The first appeal Kirkland won (Fed Cir reversed the district court throwing out one of the patents), the second appeal Microsoft won (Fed Cir affirmed the district court setting aside the jury's $1.5 billion verdict against for Kirkland's client) ... but no where in that second fed cir opinion does the court talk of "costly" lawyer errors. In fact, that Kirkland was able to convince the jury of infringement (even though losing on JMOL later) probably just shows that Kirkland whopped on Fish at the trial itself.

I'm not saying Fish is a bad firm, and I know that many of the magazines put them as the Top IP lit firm, but they haven't whopped on K&E. Remeber the $400 million verdict K&E won this fall against Microsoft?

I believe he also said that patent prosecution sucked up money and shouldn't be touched, but here his almighty super GP firm is doing it. What big, bad V20 super litigation firm has a serious patent prosecution practice again? Or are you just an outcast?

this is one of the dumbest chains i have seen. you guys aren't even talking about the same thing. I think the first moron was talking about prosecution and the second moron (only because he actually took the bait) was talking about drafting.

who cares? are IP boutiques (mid to large) a thing of the past?

A loser is a loser... whining about a JMOL doesn't make for some moral victory, it's still worth $0.

120- i dont know why s/he does it, but our firm, which albeit has a limited and "unranked" prosecution group, does it in conjunction with litigation or licensing. we typically dont/cant handle a heavy prosecution practice, but we can take over prosecution to put the client in as good as position as possible for potential litigation and/or licensing, or both. we also do it for possible M&A work (although that practice is having a rough go of it lately). and yes, we admittedly use some of those small ip shops.

also, i dont think IP boutiques of any size are going away. i think fish and finn are going to remain close to the same size, maybe a little smaller. there is going to be a couple of midsize boutiques and the rest are going to be 20 or so people shops.

Anyone saying F&R can't make the 160k payments are being a little silly. That being said, I do think F&R should never have paid people so much more than market in several of their offices. However, I'm sure that helped tremendously in getting talent to those office - which is dumb in my opinion because you can't charge the high rates like in major markets, and you always want your most talented people billing at the highest rate possible.

I don't work at fish, and I found this out like third or fourth hand, but supposedly there was a serious slip up by one of the attorneys that stated something along the lines of "oh, but that inventor just worked on a little part of the invention", as a defense as to why someone shouldn't be considered a co-inventor. Supposedly, that small slip up was taken as an admission since even working on a little part of an invention still makes someone a co-inventor? Supposedly, that screwed Kirkland on appeal. I don't know the exact details.

125 - elaborate. Attorney working for which firm? K&E? This statement was made in court?

"since even working on a little part of an invention still makes someone a co-inventor?"

Not necessarily, working on an invention doesn't per se qualify you as an inventor.

127 is right in a literal sense, but not a patent-law one...you're only a "co-inventor" of an "invention" if your part made it into the claims.

For example, company Y has a product consisting of AB. I invented and contributed A to the product. The company then files a patent which discloses AB but only claims B. I am literally a co-inventor of AB, but I am NOT a co-inventor of the "invention" in the patent because the patented "invention" cannot be more than what was claimed--B.

Thus, if you say "he only contributed a little to the invention," you are still saying he contributed to something which was patented, and the inventor's name should have been on the patent.

Aren't semantics great??? They can turn a sloppy lawyer comment into a multi-million dollar admission!

sorry 127...128 here. I misread your post...you're right on.

125 - regardless of the specifics of patent law, what you said doesn't make any sense, since the only Fed. Cir. lose was affirmance of the JMOL, which held that Microsoft had a license to the patent. So inventorship claims didn't matter on the appeal.

128 - yeah, but you have to contribute to conception of the invention. Just working on a "small part" may refer to reducing to practice, which does not qualify one as a co-inventor

130 - it does if it falls under the simultaneous conception/reduction to practice doctrine, which is true of pretty much all complex chemical patents.

125 here.... dude I just don't know. Maybe you should just ask someone more knowledgeable (about the case and patent law in general)?

130 -- someone who RTP's is NOT an inventor... if 125's words are correct, and the attorney called the guy an "inventor," then he is saying he did more than RTP... so, just like the AB-hypo, courts would still treat that statement as a tacit admission...

...but really this is all irrelevant and has nothing to do with the fact that apparently people here think (1) Fish can't pay 160 unless they fire their pros guys, AND (2) Fish's litigation department needs the pros guys to bring in good litigation business...meaning they're stuck in a catch 22, and 160 is untenable unless something changes...like trimming the fat on support staff!

Fact #1: F&R froze salaries

Fact #2: F&R laid off 30 staffers

Confirmed by F&R apologists: the firm fired associates and non-equity partners AFTER Thanksgiving, a time typically taboo for letting employees go, for "performance" reasons.

How do these points not demonstrate stealth layoffs?

And how do these points not demonstrate that IP is hurting?

Kill the Partners
By Tyrone Green and his Reggae Band

I was laid off from Fish & Richardson,
had to move to a shantytown.
Now we have no money
so we have to sleep on the ground.
I used to patent prosecution. And now I dig a ditch.
My wife she do laundry, life sure was a bitch.

But 'till we killed the partners.
Ooh we gonna make them hurt.
Kill the partners yeah.
But pay my severance first

We sing of fair reviews and equality.
But we really don’t care
we just want money money money.
We want to drive in a big black limousine.
Get so high off ganja we cant even see.

And then we kill the partners.
Ooh we gonna make them hurt.
Kill the partners. Yeah.
Ooh but pay my severance first.

When they come for my review.
We gonna wait outside.
We gonna hit them in the head with a bat
and make them cry.

And then we kill the partners.
Ooh we gonna make them hurt.
Kill the partners. Yeah.
Ooh but pay my severance first.

While I don't work at Fish, anyone who doubts its preeminence as a patent prosecution and litigation firm is a moron.

I think that people are to quick to criticize Fish for paying so much in secondary markets. Fish attorneys bill the same rates in all offices. Several of its prominent attorneys work in secondary markets. In some of these markets, market rate is higher for IP than other practice areas. For example, in Minneapolis $140k is market rate for new patent law associates, while $125k is market at GP firms. Fish is only paying 14% more. If Fish has a national practice and competes for talent with other national firms in major markets, why shouldn't it pay $160k to all new associates? Otherwise, Fish could lose top talent to Kirkland or Weil.

135 makes me happy.

And gives me ideas

How come no one mentions the three malpractice suits F&R lost in the past few years as a cause of cost-cutting? They lost one case to a small sole practitioner who worked out of her garage in sunny CA. I was so happy to see that happen. She hit them hard for $35 million. They did a mad scramble to find a new insurer. Can't wait to see them get hit again for more next time.

First, every firm gets malpracticed, particularly patent firms. Just Google "Kirkland Malpractice" and you'll see the same thing.

But in any case, within the next few hours the rumor re: Fish and Richardson layoffs will be confirmed. All I can say is that, even if I am eventually fired, that Fish is really a special place to work. I worked at a V5 before coming here and the difference is night and day. I'd gladly take a pay cut to stay here. But I guess this old-fashioned law firm model just doesn't really cut it......

Now that Fish has confirmed 49 attorney firings, how do all those morons that started comments by saying "I work at Fish and no one has been fired" feel?

The rumors of attorney layoffs have been confirmed:

http://abovethelaw.com/2009/01/nationwide_layoff_watch_fish_r.php