Are We Ready For What Harvard Law School Is Selling?
America, welcome to your new national nightmare: a country run on the thinking instilled by Harvard Law School.
Noam Scheiber’s brilliant article in the New Republic takes the first stab at capturing what this turn of events could mean for the direction of the country. After pointing out some obvious differences between the Bush 41-Clinton transition and the Bush 43-Obama transition, Scheiber explains:
But part of the explanation also lies in the elite institutions that socialized them—namely Harvard and Yale, their respective law schools. The two schools stand on opposite sides of a cultural chasm in the academic world. Even more than that, they stand for different theories of governing.
Obviously, Scheiber makes his argument by using broad generalizations about the two schools’ methods of education. Yale is portrayed as intellectually curious if a bit absent minded and unstructured. Harvard is austere and disciplined and a place where happiness goes to die.
Individual experiences will certainly vary. As John Matteson offered in the Sunday Times:
I can’t tell whether Barack Obama suffered into self-knowledge at Harvard Law the way I did. Whereas I never discovered an academic comfort zone in Roscoe Pound Hall, he became president of The Law Review — a feat of intelligence and dedication I can regard only with awe.
The generalizations about the two law schools have particular import though. Remember, Obama is seemingly bringing the entire HLS faculty with him to Washington.
Additional thoughts after the jump.
Scheiber explains how the rigors of becoming the president of the Harvard Law Review might give us an insight into the new President:
The law review attracted students of all ideological stripes. But, by disposition, they were invariably the most square. One testament to this was a law-review institution known as the “outline closet,” which housed detailed notes on almost every class. The outlines were believed to possess mystical grade-boosting powers and were passed down from one generation to the next. It was, of course, forbidden to share them with the law school lumpenproletariat.
And Matteson echos that thought in his own way:
Resigning myself to the second tier, I began to define myself as something other than a law student. I taught myself French cooking; for the first time, I fell seriously in love. Instead of taking all my third-year credits at the law school, I enrolled in a pair of superb graduate literature seminars — and began to understand that I was really meant to be an English professor. The self that I imagined on The Law Review never came to be, but I found other answers to my inner riddles.
But the question I’m forced to ask is whether the country really wants the Harvard mindset lording over us for the next four years? Because as an HLS “survivor” let me tell you that I wouldn’t go back through what Matteson calls “the crucible of character” again for any reason whatsoever. I’d move to Canada before I’d put myself through that again.
If you had to be ruled by one law school philosophy or another, wouldn’t you want it to be Yale’s? I’d gladly risk a little bit of global economic inefficiency for a little less Socratic embarrassment.
But that’s just me. Is there a particular law school educational philosophy that you think would be beneficial for the country?
And, does anybody have a good outline for American Life I can borrow?
Crimson Tide [The New Republic]
Ordinary People [New York Times]




Comments
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NYU!!
LOBSTER ASS SQUARE KASH!
Second that NYU vote!
Second that NYU vote! More practical than Yale, but still has an element of humanity unlike HLS.
This would never happen at UVA.
I heard they dress up like mexicans for all their parties at HLS. Does that make Obama racist?
ENOUGH ABOUT HARVARD ALREADY!!! WE GET IT. ELIE MYSTAL WENT TO HARVARD...OKAY WE KNOW.......
Please, stick to the Cahill layoffs
Wait -- is Cahill having layoffs?
First!
7 - you are a sad, sad . . . little (wo)man
So, a post about Harvard just to talk about Harvard. Also, the American people elected Obama, not Harvard. You're such an asshole elie.
7 - you know, people who are confident about the LS they attended never feel the need to attack others when they say that they attended Harvard.
think about it. . . .
All your base are belong to Harvard.
nobody develops character like brooklyn, hands down, produces the finest lawyers in nyc. as does u of chicago, in chicago of course, idiots.
Look up "brilliant" Elie. You'll discover that there is no mention of Noam Scheiber.
GULC! ! ! ! !
Elie, you fat slob. Harvard sucks donkey balls. It is filled with self-loving, entitled pricks who think they are god's gift to the legal world.
Whatever you do, don't mention the Cahill!
I dare you to turn off the lights, look in the mirror, and say "Cahill" three times in a row.
I meant to say "stand in front of a mirror." dammit
Scheiber's article reiterates untruth. Obama didn't need a "conservative bloc" to become Law Review President. http://nymag.com/news/features/39321/index5.html
This is important because so much of his ability to "unite" is premised on his time on the Harvard Law Review. Given the dearth of conservatives at Harvard (never mind on the law review), one would be hard-pressed to believe that there were that many conservatives that Obama had to placate. This is revisionist history and if journalists are going to continue in this direction they should get a list of all the so-called conservatives on the law review. David Lat, the President of the Yale Federalist Society, supported Hillary. How much more conservative does one think they are at Harvard?
i take it that they dont have mexican themed parties at harvard.
What's this I hear about Cahill having layoffs?
Boo on Elie for shutting off the comments on the Mexican theme party post. You didn't even give the poor girl herself a chance to show up and explain / defend herself.
Why were comments disabled on the Tulane thread?
Then again, why was that even a post in the first place? I've seen more politically incorrect parties at the University of Chicago.
boo indeed...lets just continue the party right here....
swabacker must be hating google caching right now. even if they delete the article and posts, it'll stick around through the next few OCI seasons.
lets just use this thread to continue discussing the tulane party. and the fat skanks that threw it
HLS = TTT
ALL LAW SCHOOLS OTHER THAN YLS = TTT
PERIOD.
28
It really doesnt matter. The latino blog is on its high horse, and it is #1 on google. I really doubt they will delete their post.
22 - You think the American people care about what Obama did while in law school?
You're kidding, right?
Besides, Obama doesn't have to be a uniter. The conservatives screwed up the country so badly the electorate took away their seat at the table.
I'm still waiting for Elie's thoughts on a commenter's proposed movie "Black Chicks."
Because White Chicks was not racist at all.
Husband has a degree from Rochville University. Practicing side by side with Harvard grads.
http://www.affordabledegrees.com/?source=Adwords-US&kw=Degree%20usa
"The conservatives screwed up the country so badly the electorate took away their seat at the table."
You mean Carter (CRA) and the Frank/Dodd (Fannie/Freddie) conservatives type?
That's the crazy thing about the internet. When I was in school, I did some silly things that probably would embarrass me if somebody took pictures and they got mass distributed online. But there were no digital cameras then, so everything's cool.
Melissa S. though, will have to live forever knowing that her racism will be the first thing people see when they look for her. Every potential employer for the rest of her life. Her family. Anybody she happens to be dating. Everyone in the entire world, when they hear the name "Melissa S__", will immediately see that she's a racist woman who looks like a pregnant Jay Leno.
Internet can be a great thing. Or it can be a curse.
We've got a Harvard President, we had a Cooley President, what we need is a UVA President. Beer, softball, and fixing all the country's problems in the last three weeks before the election.
All these supposed top lawyers from top schools all over the comment threads all the time, and not one can seriously contrast the philosophies and graduates of two top schools in our country?
That's kind of funny. I thought everyone on here did a joint degree from Harvard and Yale, simultaneously, before deigning to accept a partnership with Cadawalder immediately on graduation?
We've got a Harvard President, we had a Cooley President, what we need is a UVA President. Beer, softball, and fixing all the country's problems in the last three weeks before the election.
Fordham!
30 - only intelligent comment on this site in months
If anyone thinks wearning a sombrero and a fake mustache is racist, said person is such a douchebag that their opinion counts for shite anyway.
Racism has been diluted to the point that it means nothing.
26 - life aint fair. we've all broken the law, but we haven't all gotten caught. she was dumb enough to publicize this stunt and not realize it was an issue.
i'm not racist but we've all said non-pC things before at random times. i wouldn't go sticking it on facebook if i did.
real issue here is her total lack of judgment and fact she didn't realize she should keep her and her friend's ironic humor (benefit of the doubt) to herself. whether or not she is racist, or really un-pc, she clearly is a fool with poor judgment. hth
43 - Exactly. This never would have gone anywhere if she didn't *post it on her Facebook*. If it was just some little party, nobody would ever have heard about it. Once you put evidence of your racism online, you've brought any harm that comes as a result on yourself.
44=racist.
There I said it.
ATL deleting comments = freaking RIDICULOUS.
I'm holding an "ATL" party where we sit around in blackface, stuff our fat-fucking faces, spount nonsense and use horrible grammar, and then lament the fact that even with an HLS dgree we're still unemployable in the field.
Then I'll mail Elie the fucking photos personally so he can blog about how much his feelings are hurt.
I'm holding an "ATL" party where we sit around in blackface, stuff our fat-fucking faces, spout nonsense and use horrible grammar, and then lament the fact that even with an HLS dgree we're still unemployable in the field.
Then I'll mail Elie the fucking photos personally so he can blog about how much his feelings are hurt.
46 - I can understand them deleting the comments that contained M.S.'s name. I'm sure ATL doesn't want to gert sued by the girl's family after she kills herself because she realizes that she's destroyed her entire future.
47, make sure you're doing it for comedic purposes and you'll be all set. Elie loved the blackface in Tropic Thunder, remember.
Dammit TrophyWife, TELL US WHERE YOU GOT THAT PICTURE!
ATL covering the faces in some of the people in the racist party pictures hours after they posted the pictures with faces=stupid
All these supposed top lawyers from top schools all over the comment threads all the time, and not one can seriously contrast the philosophies and graduates of two top schools in our country?
That's kind of funny. I thought everyone on here did a joint degree from Harvard and Yale, simultaneously, before deigning to accept a partnership with Cadawalder immediately on graduation?
52,
That's what happens when you employ an army of unemployable lawyers.
53, you seem to have this place confused with xoxohth.com
52: Those are just poorly photoshop'd sunglasses.
Tulane people should sue Elie and ATL. The original post below wasn't blacked out faces, and now the comments are being edited / deleted. You still published them ATL, and they were still overboard. Defamation suits all around!
51: Trophy Wife? In the words of Jerry Springer "Must've been second place."
@53: You're right, you know. I would call the comments on this site retarded, but I wouldn't want to insult the mentally disabled. The posts aren't much better. There are so many fascinating legal stories right now because of the financial meltdown, but all we jackass readers of this site seem to care about are what law firm gave bonuses, fired people, froze salaries. I mean, are we that f-ing self absorbed that we don't even care/want to show interest in what happens in the rest of the legal world?
There are some truly fascinating legal nuggets about the bailout (financial and auto), bankruptcies, hedge fund managers going missing/stealing everyone's money. In fact, Dealbreaker even posted an article earlier today about priests stealing from the church! Last I checked, that involves breaking the law and should be covered here.
Elie, for the love of god, please, please start covering some interesting legal topics before you lose all your readers to Dealbreaker.
Thanks,
(soon to be non-)loyal Reader of many years
57 - Where are the damages? She's a fat ugly chick with degrees from a glorified community college and one of the worst law schools in America. She had no prospects either professionally or personally to ruin.
57: Sue, Schmue... Check out the link to Guanabee (http://guanabee.com/2009/01/tulane-law-school-racist-party). Pictures are still there (including the "cholo" one). You should check out the comments over there.
60 - emotional distress from even being thought about by Elie.
Yeah the comments at Cindy's website are great, these people would see racism in a Chi-Chi's commercial.
61 - first lesson of law school is???
Always sue the deep pockets.
57 - opinions are privileged.
This post is more racist than Melissa Swabacker.
61: I always thought you get what you paid for. Considering ATL's got Elie, how deep can those pockets be?
65 - Absolutely right. And in my opinion, she's a fat, hideous beast of a girl who probably just ruined her future through a lapse in judgment that she'll want to believe was momentary, but in reality was most likely systemic.
Too much ivy, didn't read.
Anything on Cahill layoffs?
Also, I heard a rumor that the former president of the Tulane Law School Student Bar Association dropped out to take a job at El Pollo Loco. Can you confirm?
ATL has jumped the shizzark.
69: NF; DR. Go back to Dealbreaker.
65 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violation_of_privacy
take your colorable claim pick and sue sue sue!!!
Remember, sometimes a simple filing of a lawsuit or demand letter with a colorable claim can get you what you want (maybe your picture and the article taken down?) - so sue Guanabee and ATL and maybe even Google (now we're talking deep pockets!)
You know what the funny part about the Tulane story is? Try searching for that girl's Facebook page. It doesn't exist.
As for the previous post. It's ridiculous. I am a mexican, and am not offended at all by such a party. So they made fun of a stereotype. I call racists the dudes that shoot mexicans trying to cross the border, or the cops that brutally beat them up, or the courts that say mexicans are not entitled to enjoy the basic human rights.
A party like that? Who cares, we'd be a great world if our racism problems were reduced to that.
I don't have a dog in this fight, and my opinion is one of "whatever...However, if we want to talk about judgment, lets talk about Elie's judgment.
1) Elie, if your balls are big enough to post this retarded story they should be big enough to let the story run its course;
2) If Lat had a hand in the censorship, what does that say about Lat's recruiting judgment?
Personally, though I am a white male, my thoughts are who gives a fuck, however I recognize the opposing opinions. What would be interesting is to find out where the tip came from.
73 - Yes, but she's a graduate of U.C. San Diego and Tulane Law. You rassumption she'd know how to file a lawsuit or write a demand letter -- or, you know, stay inside the lines on Big-Bird's beak in the coloring book -- is probably grossly inaccurate.
73 - Yes, but she's a graduate of U.C. San Diego and Tulane Law. You rassumption she'd know how to file a lawsuit or write a demand letter -- or, you know, stay inside the lines on Big-Bird's beak in the coloring book -- is probably grossly inaccurate.
65 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violation_of_privacy
take your colorable claim pick and sue sue sue!!!
Remember, sometimes a simple filing of a lawsuit or demand letter with a colorable claim can get you what you want (maybe your picture and the article taken down?) - so sue Guanabee and ATL and maybe even Google (now we're talking deep pockets!)
if she offs herself, ATL, mysTTTal and that that Cindy lady at the other site are all going down hard. anyone remember the recent myspace hoax thing? i'm fairly certain that lady is in jail right now.
The people who attended the Tulane party in the garb of a Texas stereotype were exponentially more offensive than the ones in sombreros.
Texas First
Agreed; trophywife please reveal source/name of picture; I must view her beautiful ta tas in full screen glory
80 - That case has absolutely nothing to do with this one. Here, somebody did something stupid and people made fun of her for it. There, a grown woman created a fake identity and LIED for weeks and weeks and weeks solely for the purpose of upsetting an innocent little girl.
Nobody's lied here. And more importanlty, she put the photos online herself. She brought whatever comes down on herself.
65 - explain to me how her suit isn't 12b6'd right out of court? she posted the pictures online and opinions aren't really actionable. pretty sure that keeps her from claiming pretty much anything.
And the sum total of comments basically were that:
1) She's racist.
2) She's got poor judgment.
3) She's ugly.
All of those things are opinions, and I say them to people all the time (well, except the racist part, because I don't meet that many racists) without getting sued.
74: DELETE FUCKING EVERYTHING
84 - I think you could say that facebook pics are not intended to be published to the entire world. Yes, she put them on her facebook profile - but does that give whoever sent her pictures on the right to do so? Not necessarily - to go from limited audience to world-wide audience along with accompanying, not-the-full-story "racist" context could be enough to get you past 12(b)(6).
84 - - unless her facebook page was private and one of her "friends" passed on the photo's for his sloppyness to post in a public forum. This is an invasion of privacy as to the degree of liability between friend and sloppy, I have no opinion.
80: Lori Drew. She was found not guilty on all counts. Driving someone to suicide via myspace isn't criminal, apparently.
87 - "I think you could say that facebook pics are not intended to be published to the entire world."
Perhaps you could say that -- but you'd be an idiot. By definition, when you post something online, it's published TO THE ENTIRE WORLD. You have to exercise judgment and restraint in what you put up, or else you get screwed -- look at all the people who couldn't get job offers because of some embarrassing picture / comment on their Facebook page. Happens every day. This is just one more example.
damn 87; we're good; 84
88 - your explanation made no sense
ATTTL
sorry,
damn 87; we're good; 88
91
90 - but her profile isn't searchable, and it wasn't her profile pic anyway. Plus, facebook's privacy settings allow you to make sure it's NOT the entire world you publish something to. So, you sue the person who gave your picture to the initial blog, and sue the blogs for secondary publication. I'm not saying you're gonna win, I'm saying you have a colorable claim that can get you what you want by being a hassle.
ATTTL
87 - i think 90 is right. you're a moron.
92 - - would my explanation make sense if:
1) I was your friend;
2) you left me your key while you went on vacation
3) I went through your videos and found one of you knobbing your wife (husband)
4) I gave it to Elie to post.
5) using his good judgment, his sloppyness posted it
Would that be an invasion of your privacy? By whom???????
If your answer is no; get back to work by distinguishing what I think happened here. To wit: disgruntled facebook friend had access to photo's and sent an e-mail to Elie informing him of the racism involved.
88
How long do you think until they take her personal email down from the Tulane Law SBA website?
98 - Bad analogy.
Replace Number 3 with:
"You left a video of you knobbing your wife playing on the television with big signs pointing to it, and invited people to comment on how awesome it was."
98 - Bad analogy.
Replace Number 3 with:
"You left a video of you knobbing your wife playing on the television with big signs pointing to it, and invited people to comment on how awesome it was."
100/101 is exactly right.
98 - one of the reasons people join facebook is to post photos so their "friends" can see and comment on them. difficult to say the anonymous tipster was invading her privacy by forwarding them on to others
ahh, but 100 we are talking about 12(b)(6), and the last time I did any research, facts as pled are assumed to be true.
You are probably correct this may have a hard time with a MSJ, but I think the story as it appears to me has enough bones to get past 12(b)(6).
88 and 98
88/98 = retard
sloppyness????? did you learn spelling from mysTTTal?? you made the same pathetic mistake in both posts?
Well, she is a public figure, as president of the Tulane Student Bar Association and former candidate for Vice Chair of the National Student Bar Association. Public figures are entitled to less prvacy protection.
104- I'd give him/her the benfit of the doubt in assuming they meant "Sloppyness" as a kind of title, like "Highness." In that case, it might theoretically be a correct spelling -- think "Sloppy-ness"
i love that the Cindy Casares lady (the mysTTTal of that latin blog) called them "gringos." doesn't that make her racist too? if wearing a sombrero and a fake mustache makes you racist, calling someone a gringo must as well
105 - only a limited public figure. World-, or even nation-wide exposure is probably beyond her "public figure" status.
108 - Well, in this limited forum at least, you could argue that the audience is merely the U.S. legal community (forget that other blog for the moment), and I would argue that her prominence in the U.S. legal community is great enough to make her a public figure to this audience.
102
I don't disagree with you and I have not read the Facebook privacy policy; however, I believe privacy law recognizes an implied right to privacy (haven't done any research on the topic for a while).
If I restrict my facebook photo's to only my friends and then one of my friends copies that photo, sends it to sloppyness and that result in what happened here; I believe my privacy has been violated. Why? Because I had an implied right to privacy by restricting access to my photos and my friend breached that privacy.
Did she restrict her photo's? I don't know. My only point is I think there is a cause of action which can survive 12(b)(6)
88-98
47/48 is easily the funniest comment on here in months. i would actually love to see photos like that. hey TTTLS, another great party idea!!!!
104
think...your wife has much sloppyness.
106
thank you
88-98
110 - so then does the cause of action lie against the friend or mysTTTal/ATL/lating blog? seems like it would be against the friend.
113
Obviously the friend.
Not obvious ATL. I guess it depends on the amount indifference involved. Though you would certainly name everyone in a complaint.
110
114 - Including the posters? John Doe's 1-230?
ATL, I really think you should open up the comments on the Tulane story. M.S. needs to have a forum to tell her side of the story. At least contact her to allow her the opportunity to give some kind of a statement that you can post. And make sure to leave the comments open on that, in case she wants to clarify any questions people may have. She's easy to track down.
116 is right, no point in stopping comments but leaving them and the story up on the site. people can, and have, just continued the discussion in subsequent threads
It is hard to imagine a more inane topic tham the "different theories of governing" from Yale and Harvard. It is just self-obsessed nonsense.
I hardly think these Tulane students will be remembered as long as the "Chamillionaire Four" of Harvard Law fame -- particularly Adora Asonye.
http://harvardlawracehoax.wordpress.com/
How about Judge Halverson and a pregnant Mickey Rourke putting on sombreros and fake mustaches and committing career suicide for no particular reason?
One-hundred-twenty-FIRST!
118, the racism of the Tulane Law School Student Bar Association President is far more inane, and insidious.
118, the racism of the Tulane Law School Student Bar Association President is far more inane, and insidious.
Boy, the stupid party by these Tulane students is NOTHING compared with the Harvard students who tried to create a race incident, and get a laundry list of ridiculous demands approved by the Dean, based on a hoax e-mail. Did any of the Harvard students get punished?
defamation? false light?
Harvard = Overrated.
Stanford is the best law school in the nation.
I'm only saying what all you east coast pretentious posers know in your hearts but will never admit. The west coast runs you ninjas, ask Larry Ellison.
Harvard = Overrated.
Stanford is the best law school in the nation.
I'm only saying what all you east coast pretentious posers know in your hearts but will never admit. The west coast runs you ninjas, ask Larry Ellison.
Harvard = Overrated.
Stanford is the best law school in the nation.
I'm only saying what all you east coast pretentious posers know in your hearts but will never admit. The west coast runs you ninjas, ask Larry Ellison.
MysTTTal graduated from Harvard Law? I'd like to see evidence. Especially since he seems to be uTTTerly incapable of embarrassment, Socratic or otherwise.
113 - secondary publication still gets you liability, I think (i.e. republishing what other people have published). Plus, Elie's additions might change the context in the false light claim enough for a separate one against him / ATL, maybe.
I really think posting this story with names and identifying photos is a far worse offense than throwing the original party.
125: false light requires the publisher to publish something that portrays the plaintiff in a false light, either knowingly or with reckless disregard to the truth.
I don't see anything false. Swabacker threw a party and her friends showed up. Implications of racism are opinion, but i doubt rise to the level of knowingly false. Throw in first amendment protections.. nah, there's not much of a suit available.
131 - the better bet I think is public disclosure of private facts or image appropriation, possibly.
Yeah, unless I missed something, there was nothing defamatory or false posted anywhere in that post or the comments. Accusing someone of poor judgment isn't actionable.
126, SLS gets NYU's runner-up for Dean. SLS equals NYU safety school.
134, SLS is a NYU safety school huh...your first year job prospects out of NYU are laughable at best. NYU is pretty much a tier 2 school in most legal circles (outside of NY). Try going international with that degree they will think it's a community college...come to think of it...it might be...I'll look further into that and get back to you.
Its pretty much 1. SLS 2. HLS 3. YLS 4.UPenn 5. U of chicago and the rest don't really matter...
134, SLS is a NYU safety school huh...your first year job prospects out of NYU are laughable at best. NYU is pretty much a tier 2 school in most legal circles (outside of NY). Try going international with that degree they will think it's a community college...come to think of it...it might be...I'll look further into that and get back to you.
Its pretty much 1. SLS 2. HLS 3. YLS 4.UPenn 5. U of chicago and the rest don't really matter...
you don't think it IMPLIES racism?
Honestly, this "my school is better than your school" stuff is bullshit. Once you're out in the real world, it doesn't make a damn bit of difference. I would love to see the ages of the commenters who get into this school v. school crap. I bet that nobody over 30 has ever made that sort of post.
138 - You live under a rock. Or in someplace like... Allegan Michigan. Same difference.
What school you went to is all that matters when you're sending out resumes, networking at parties, or otherwise presenting yourself to the legal profession. Unless you've successfully prosecuted Microsoft, it matters. It matters to your family, to strangers, to strangers who know your family.
Who the hell do you hang out with? Because they clearly aren't lawyers.
Unsubtle Penn troll @ 134/135.
119, of the 4 Harvard 3Ls, why did you mention Adora Asonye specifically? Did she send the hoax e-mail?
(141 back)
I couldn't resist doing some Googling to try to figure out what's going on -- it seems likely that Adora Asonye was the Harvard law student who sent the hoax e-mail. If you look at the blog which has been linked to, the hoaxer sent an e-mail containing Chamillionaire lyrics from a mysogynist and violent song. Well, it turns out Asonye is a world-class expert on such things. She attended Texas A&M:
http://honors.tamu.edu/Scholarships/Community/UniversityScholars/IndScholar.aspx?StdID=59&Year=2006
While there, she did her senior thesis on mysogynist and violent hip-hop songs -- you can download a copy of it, in Word, here!:
http://txspace.tamu.edu/handle/1969.1/3705?show=full
Contrary to what Asonye said in her e-mail to her Harvard classmates about the Chamillionaire song referenced in the Harvard e-mail being racist and evil, in Asonye's thesis she says that she thinks such songs are valuable -- indeed, romantic!:
"Although many use misogynistic, materialistic, and violent lyrics in attempt to belie the notion that hip hop contains any manifestations of romantic love, I contend that not only is romantic love present in hip hop, but the love exhibited does not deviate substantially from common notions of romantic love in mainstream society."
Contrast this with Asonye's 4/13/2007 e-mail to her classmates in which she uses a bunch of gibberish to attack the Chamillionaire e-mail:
"The use of the words 'hate speech' and 'racist' to characterize the statements, and not the individuals, is something that we can debate. The email coupled with the class discussion can be characterized as hate speech as it is defined. It is important that we make this distinction. It would be great to 'rail against the institution' so to speak, when we speak about racism/sexism. It would be equally great to explore our personal biases and recognize when some statements we make can be offensive. This is also a way to change the institution. I have learned a great deal from my classmates this year: specifically about sexism, gay/lesbian rights, and the bloody GOVERNMENT (anarchy anyone??)."
Two questions:
1. Is anyone else inclined to think that this chick, who appears obsessed with violent, misogynist hip-hop music, is the one who sent the hoax e-mail? Who else would have the background and inclination to send it?
2. Since this main thread is supposed to be about Harvard, not Tulane, what do you think about Harvard having admitted someone who wrote a bizarre senior thesis on hip-hop music, and who doesn't seem able to write proper, intelligible English? Is the bottom of the barrel that Harvard apparently has to scrape, given that all the top prospects still go to Yale, generally this crappy?
(141)
Here's a simpler link to Asonye's thesis:
http://txspace.tamu.edu/handle/1969.1/3705
Check it out -- it's weird stuff.
(141)
Christ, I'm reading Asonye's thesis -- it's almost as bad as Michelle Obama's Princeton thesis! Like (p. 2):
"In addition to preventing essentialist notions about hip hop culture from affecting the African American community, the exploration of love in hip hop culture will reveal that rap music is more than the gangsta rap monolith to which critics diminish hip hop. The rap music of Will Smith differs substantially from the music produced by NWA. The content of rap songs draw from myriad life experiences and situations."
She can't even keep plural versus singular word forms straight. Start of page 3:
"I will examine hip hop productions that contains [sic]romantic love but to the cultural critic may not be conceived as such."
End of page 3:
"If love exists in American society despite the presence of these flaws then the accusations that hip hop is devoid of love because of the possession of the same flaws is [sic] not substantiated."
Have you seen a paragraph lately as unintelligible as this one (p. 4)?:
"Exploring love in hip hop culture does not amass to rationalizing misogyny, violence or any of the aforementioned characteristics; it is a rare exploration of the possessions of hip hop instead of an exploration of its shortcomings. There are problematic elements in hip hop culture, as in any, and many scholars have extended this discussion to include the gender crises in the African American youth culture; this study makes no attempt to address or minimize the perceived problems. This essay contributes to the academy of hip hop specifically, and cultural studies generally, by consciously attempting to illuminate the selective application of logic used to assess the same concept in American society and its subcultures, that pervades the cultural studies of minority populations."
That's it! I can't read past page 4. Maybe someone else can bear to do so, and post anything else of interest . . . .
142, for reasons that should be self-explanatory, readers of this blog are not surprised that Harvard Law School would admit blacks who can't write proper intelligible English.
In fact, ATL readers should be the least surprised of that fact, out of all groups on this Earth.
Mexican isn't a race
Elie should be deported back to Honduras, that dirty mexican
Notice that fat tub of lard Ellie took off the names and faces on the Tulane law school party post.
ELLIE- You are the worst kind of human being, REPORTING ON LAW STUDENTS IS NOT NEWS IT DOES NOTHING TO CONTRIBUTE TO ANYONE'S LIVES. ALL YOU DO IS RUIN THESE KIDS' CHANCES IN AN ALREADY TOUGH MARKET I HOPE YOU GET THE PANTS SUED OFF OF YOU.
I encourage someone to create an anti-ellie site where we post any embarrassing pictures and news of the fat tub of lard.
The Emory Law mentality should rule!
"Whereas I never discovered an academic comfort zone in Roscoe Pound Hall, he became president of The Law Review -- a feat of intelligence and dedication I can regard only with awe."
Wow...this guy needs to get a life.
People at Harvard are dorks.
Only the wanna-be dorks call other people dorks.
3:08, fine, I admit I'm a dork, but I also admit that I have more money than you and that more people will fawn over my alma matter. I have a credential that you will never have. Who's the loser now?
Also, the "Harvard" on my resume means that I will always have a strong resume than you, no matter what.
145: why do you assume Asonye is black? Pretty racist to conclude that just because she's a terrible writer, she's black.
148: Agreed. Ellie, please remove all these individually identifiable comments about Asonye. All you're doing is adding to the Google weight of existing material about her role in the Harvard race controversy. Little if anything of substance is being added. Is that what you want your blog used for?
145 probably assumes Asonye is black because her thesis is about hip-hop music in the African-American culture.
Yes, Ellie, PLEASE remove anything from this blog which would tend to inform your readers of the past stupid actions of any law students and thereby help your readers avoid the effects of these students' future stupid actions. Leaving the material on the blog would be, like, too informative.
156, yeah, but her NAME is "Adora Asonye," not something like Tawana Johnson.
If I had to guess, she's Japanese. Maybe she decided to write on hip-hop as a cultural outsider.
I really think it's racist to assume someone's an African-American just because he or she's at Harvard law yet is a poor writer. Not everyone can be a Barack Obama.
158, Adora Asonye is not a Japanese name. Your Japanese comment as well as the "Tawana Johnson" comment is quite racist.
Asonye is black.
http://honors.tamu.edu/Scholarships/Community/UniversityScholars/IndScholar.aspx?StdID=59&Year=2006
http://honors.tamu.edu/Scholarships/Community/UniversityScholars/Photos/2006/AdoraAsonye.jpg
Adora Asonye
Sugarland, Texas
Education Major: Economics
Minor: Africana Studies
Extra Curricular Activities TAMU Student Government Association
Voices of Praise Gospel Choir
African American Student Leadership Institute
ExCEL Director of Workshops
Honors Invitational Program Leader
Awards and Recognitions University Scholar
Presidential Achievement Award
Dean’s List
Nominee for National Society of Collegiate Scholars
Work Experience Fall 2002: Public Policy Research Institute
Summer 2002: Linen’s n Things
March 2002-June 2002: Kohl’s Department Stores
Summer 2001: Linen’s n Things
Volunteer Experience MEDALS team leader, 1 conference
St. Joseph Hospital, 1 summer
Sugarland Oaks Residence Home
Study Abroad
Hobbies Reading, listening to music, debate, exploring my Christianity, learning about the African American community
10 year Objective
Personal Information After attaining my degree in Economics, I plan to attend law school and practice corporate or sports and entertainment law for about ten years. Afterwards, I plan to diligently focus my time and energy on giving back to the African American community, specifically African American children and young adults.
159, "Adora Asonye" is not a real name. From now on she will be referred to as Amanda Asher, or A.A. for short. Thank you.
""I would rather be governed by the first 2000 names in the Boston phone book than by the Harvard faculty."
William F. Buckley
156: Or maybe 145 assumes Asonye is black because the picture of Asonye on Texas A&M's website, to which 142 linked, shows she's black:
http://honors.tamu.edu/Scholarships/Community/UniversityScholars/IndScholar.aspx?StdID=59&Year=2006
Why are the Tulane comments disabled?? First.
(162) -- Sorry, 159, I didn't see your comment before I posted. Glad someone else noticed she's clearly black, based on the picture she herself had posted by Texas A&M.
Read AA's thesis. This bitch be crazy. mmmhmmmm. *snap*
Elie,
When you delete comments can you please leave in the "comment deleted by moderator". When the comment just disappears it screws up the back and forth because the references to previous comments by number no longer make sense. The Tulane Border Party post comments don't make any sense now (not that most of them made any sense before).
How do we know "Barack Obama" is black? If I had to guess, he's Japanese (due to his last name) and part military brat.
Oh wait, there are pictures of him.
155/158 = deluded liberal, hoax apologist AND racist.
I refuse to believe that Adora Asonye is black. She could be a Japanese woman who painted her face, minored in Africana studies, joined the African American Student Leadership Institute, and talked about giving back to the African American community because after all, humans all came from Africa.
It is inconceivable that Harvard Law School would ever lower its admissions standards to admit a black person who can't write proper English. Remember, affirmative action is when the school chooses between two "equally qualified" candidates and picks the more "diverse" one.
It upsets me that people are still referring to our "president" as "Barack Obama." I thought we agreed that his name should be Barry O'Conner and we should all refer to him as such because "Barack Obama" (1) is not a real name and (2) sounds racist.
168, according to the logic I have learned from ATL comment threads you must be a racist. You have spoken ill of affirmative action, there fore you hate black people and you are a racist. Furhtermore you must also be a conservative and therefore a gun wielding, nascar watching hick.
170, even bringing up the aa- word is racist. It's like using the n- word. You're racist whenever you use it, even if you're just quoting someone else who was opposed to racism.
See, e.g., http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/02/breaking_fulbright_jaworski_pa.php
followed by
http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/02/stepping_in_deep_dukey_maybe_i.php
This board is dominated by racist and sexist trolls who whine about the writers (but never, ever just LEAVE) and who, for the most part, are completely unable to recognize even basic legal concepts. There's no way this bunch ever went to law school. And there's no possible justification for allowing this blatantly aggressive behavior to continue.
The trolls want the board because that's what trolls do. It has nothing to do with free speech, and it is an example of why libertarianism never works in practice. People aren't that bright, ATL. Your commenters are being assholes because you're letting them. Just accept that and develop a real-world strategy to handle it.
172, why don't you stop whining about the board posters and "just LEAVE"?
That's your strategy, right? Everyone with something to say leaves because this really isn't worth it, and you two (or three?) idiots party on with the things you want to say in public but don't have the guts.
I honestly respect the internet and what it can do, but trolls are ruining it for everyone. What do you guys get out of this? Just the fun of being a bully? Some sort of justification that your lot is bad, but not as bad as those other people you can smear? It's very poor-white-in-the-south ignorant.
174, no the "strategy" is to point out that you're somewhat hypocritical, but also most definitely a bigot and racist.
No - the strategy is to hook people into defending themselves from ridiculous claims while clapping your hands over your ears and screeching such sophisticated analysis as "No, YOU are!"
It's basic troll. You say something shocking. You accuse. You act the fool.
155: You're wrong to suggest that Ellie should remove all references to Asonye, so that these comments don't turn up on a Google search of her name.
I think Ellie was right to remove the name of the woman at Tulane law. She did nothing at all to publicly associate herself with any racial issue. All she did was attend a private party, where some photos were taken. Those photos were then posted to a private Facebook or similar page. Someone else then copied those photos on to a blog and then NAMED THE INDIVIDUALS IN THEM. Those individuals did nothing to put themselves out on the internet, by name, as having any involvement in any racial controversy.
Asonye's a totally different case. I googled her and found out that about a month before the racial incident chronicled on the "Harvard Law Race Hoax" blog, on 3/15/2007 Asonye signed a letter (with about 30 other Harvard law students) which appeared in the Harvard law newspaper and which ATTACKED DEAN KAGAN (and other administrators) for a refusal "to acknowledge the strained atmosphere" at Harvard Law, which was (supposedly) experiencing "a troubling racial divide that affects every member of the HLS community, on campus and beyond . . . ." See here:
http://media.www.hlrecord.org/media/storage/paper609/news/2007/03/15/Opinion/Letter.To.The.Editor-2777232-page2.shtml
Apparently that effort fell on deaf ears. A month later, coincidentally or not (some suggest Asonye was behind the hoax), there was a nasty e-mail featuring Chamillionaire lyrics sent anonymously around Asonye's 1L section, which prompted Asonye and 3 others to send another letter to Dean Kagan, one which demanded sweeping institutional changes, based on the "hate speech" incident of which they complained. It's entirely forseeable that another Harvard law student would put her e-mail, and other e-mails on this topic, on a blog, as ended up happening:
http://harvardlawracehoax.wordpress.com/
To perhaps belabor the obvious, Asonye is a public figure, or a least a limited-purpose public figure, who sought and received publicity for her views about the racial atmosphere at Harvard law. Whether or not her concerns have merit, it seems to me that discussion of her -- at least on race issues -- is fair game on this blog or anywhere else on the internet.
177, your post is too long. And there is no such thing as a private internet page. Anyone with 1/2 a brain knows that anything you put on the internet is public. I'm not going to say Tulane Girl's name because my post will be deleted but she deserves to be made public. Guanabee is still the first hit when you google her name with a link to ATL in it. So I think she got what she deserved. I'm not saying she is a racist but she is stupid for posting the pics. I have no sympathy for stupidity.
177:
She threw the party. I
(177) My post was long, 178, because I thought it important to detail how Asonye went public with her racial concerns before she sent around the e-mails which have now surfaced. If she'd never gone public, and had simply sent e-mails within her section, it would be a lot more like the Tulane situation, in my view.
I agree the Tulane girl's stupid, not racist. But I don't think she should have to worry for eternity that this momentary, private stupidity is going to turn up in Google searches, so I think Ellie made an ethical choice to delete her name (though I don't think legally he had to do so).
I heard that Tulane Girl let all of the border agents run a train on her in exchange for tequila shots and a green card. That is one messed up drinking game.
Yeah, and I heard Ellie Mystal is going to delete post 181 in about 10 seconds.
182, I doubt it. 181 is offensive but no more offensive that 100 other posts on ATL. And 181 doesn't identify anyone by name which is the thing that gets your comments taken down. That or spamming with some stupid story or link like that poster who kept posting those same two stupid links but stopped when his posts kept getting removed.
182, 181 is still here becuase it is clearly a joke, and pretty damn funny. And maybe true.
Wait -- you mean Harvard Girl publicly attacked Dean Elena Kagan for being racist (or, at least, for doing nothing to deal with a "troubling racial divide"), and followed that up with a letter requesting specific changes, after which apparently Dean Kagan did NOTHING?
I'm not saying there's anything to Harvard Girl's complaints, but doesn't Kagan have to go through confirmation hearings? If so, is someone going to ask her about Harvard Girl's criticisms?
If you're accused of racism because of you dressed up in a silly costume, take it from me, its a street fight. Create distance, and grab a chair.
Chairs frighten me. And BTW going to Havrard doesn't "guarantee" a higher salary...I mean look at Obama. That HLS grad is only pulling down like 100k.
Chairs frighten me. And BTW going to Havrard doesn't "guarantee" a higher salary...I mean look at Obama. That HLS grad is only pulling down like 100k.
172/174, go back to the unemployment line.
If you're accused of racism because of you dressed up in a silly costume, take it from me, its a street fight. Create distance, and grab a chair.
172/174, go back to the unemployment line.
If you're accused of racism because of you dressed up in a silly costume, take it from me, its a street fight. Create distance, and grab a chair.
As an Irishman, I have to assume from the Tulane stuff that I'm not only permitted but encouraged to kneecap anybody wearing green and/or drinking Guinness on St. Pat's. Because, you know - that's racist.
http://www.amazon.com/Irish-Became-White-Noel-Ignatiev/dp/0415918251
//"Mick Catholic," for the sake of completion here.