I'm f*cking Matt Damon.

"Why do you think the same five guys make it to the final table of the World Series of Poker every year? What, are they the luckiest guys in Las Vegas? "

----

If only this was in any way true. We've had one name pro, and a small name at that, make the final table in the last three years.

This has already been posted on extensively on Volokh - read it there for real legal analysis.

I LLOOOOOOOOOOOVVVVVVEEEEEEE this post. And, I LLLOOOOOVVVVVVVVEEEEEE the new "related stories" section - replete with advertising from AOL's Black Voices. And the AARP Bulletin banner has made my life so much better. All we need now are links to investment opportunities, t-shirts, and porn, to fill the margins on the left and right sides of the content and we will be all set.

Last month I billed corporate America ten hours for reading ATL comments about ASSLOBSTERS.

#6 is a champ . . . just paying it forward.

i was able to pay my rent this year playing online poker. i like to think it's a game of skill, but obviously there is some chance involved.

*nervously hopes the feds don't come after me, although that would make a good atl story*

-nervous T-10 1L
soon to be nervous 1L sa

Claudio the Law Failure:
A Poem

Once upon a time,
there was a boy.

His name was Claudio.
His game was drinking.

He demanded a ride,
And threatened the cops.

And got his poor self sent
to Riker's Island.

He woke up today,
and realized he failed.

He knows he's a failure.
A failure-failure-failure.

Claudio, that's him.
Claudio, the failure.

Playing a set of SNGs at Pokerstars as I read this.

sweeetttt

Choosing a winning horse also involves a great deal of skill (maybe not as much skill as it takes to be a world class poker player). Go down to your nearest OTB and tell me that is good for society.

In the poker game of life women are the rake.....The F&*%ing rake

"This one goes to 11."

Indeed, it also takes skill to get the coin in the slot machine.

Slot machines are good for some societies.

Elie- that a stupid, fat, asshole like you can be paid for ignoront, bullshit comments on a daily basis is evidence that luck is very much a factor in life. If Toby Stock admitted you, it's only right that he was forced out. That decision alone would be enough of a reason, though Stock made a lot of other stupid decisions as well.

11. I'd disagree. I'd say "winning a horse race" requires a great deal of skill -- from both horse and rider. But picking the horse will always be more "luck based" than any poker game because ultimately the outcome is beyond your control.

On the other hand, you can put me in a poker game against novices, give them a steady stream of great cards and give me a steady stream of 3/4 off-suit, and I'm going to do alright. (put another way, you put against professional people and give me rockets every other hand and I'm still going to lose my shirt.)

There's much more skill involved in poker than anything else that is nominally called "gambling."

I think of poker like a poor man's chess.
--Elie

This site they say is filled with hate,
comment authors think they are great.

But when the time comes to pass,
there only remains,
the LOBSTERS ASS.

15: elie, where do you typically play? do you live in dc or nyc? i think it would be fun if we had an "unofficial atl poker tourney" with $100 buy in. or maybe biglaw associates could put their job security on the line, that's worth about $100 bucks.

-nervous T-10 1L
soon to be nervous 1L sa

The distinction between chance and skill misses the point. The reason gambling is bad for society is because it is based on taking from your fellow man without producing or returning anything of value.

18,

Kind of like this blog.

18 - You just described 95% of corporate America...maybe 99%

"The distinction between chance and skill misses the point. The reason gambling is bad for society is because it is based on taking from your fellow man without producing or returning anything of value."
-----
Uh, except the entertainment inherent in gambling. This is like saying Major League Baseball is bad for society, because owners take money from fans without producing anything. They produce the same thing gambling does - a few hours of entertainment.

You could argue there are negative externalities to gambling, but it certainly produces something of value.

21,

I wouldn't say poker was entertaining. But your post certainly was. My goodness - that was AWESOME.

21,

WEEEEEEEE. Gambling - boy what fun. I don't even care if I win anything as long as I can give away my money and be entertained.

Elie, don't worry about the professionals taking your shirt... they'll give it right back when they see your man boobs

21 -

YOU SUCK!

poker is clearly a game of skill.every decent player knows this.the only reason it is even debated over on the legality of it is because the gov't wants to make sure they get their cut.why do you think all the states run a pure chance lottery[poor chance at that].

guest,

just think about how boring it would be on this blog without you. If not for you it would just be nervous and Count Jackoffula. It is so great that so many fucktards can gather in one place to blurt out their random shiznasty.

I am thinking about going to law school - does anyone have any advice for me?

Well, fuck. For once, I can contribute something meaningful here, since I actually dabble in this stuff.

Whether poker is a game of skill or game of chance may be immaterial. The language of the underlying state statute is going to determine whether one can play poker lawfully, not that anyone should care.

Some state laws, for example, prohibit any game "subject to chance." Others explicitly except "games of skill" and employ a "predominance" test to determine whether the game is a game of chance or game of skill.

Most federal laws (e.g. Travel Act) criminalize gambling activity that is unlawful under state law. But some (Wire Act) do not. So it's really one big clusterfuck. Oh, and some asshole named "Dikshit" (no joke) recently pled guilty to a Wire Act violation for running an online casino.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anurag_Dikshit

HTH.

28 - get a second bachelors instead (something useful). That way you have more time, the women are better looking, and you have a better chance of getting a job, and not becoming a loser for the rest of your life.

1, I don't care what anyone says about you. Your comments are honest and particularly wise. You remind me of someone else I know, whose name rhymes with Dalai Lama and Yo-mamma.

Well fuck me running. Once again, I am glad I visited this site. It only took me 20 minutes to read it, so my clients are only out $200.

Fair thee well, my little fairy princesses.

FFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK

California also believes that poker is a game of skill, not gambling. There is an old state attorney general opinion to that effect which is why you have big poker rooms in LA.

Hey Elie,

I've never been a particular fan, though I don't drink the haterade like everyone else. The grammar stuff annoyed me and all.

But I want to say that you have definitely improved in noticeable, tangible ways. The lighter, snarkier tone that we loved in the audition process is back over the heavy handed polemical style and that's more enjoyable. It just seems like you're hitting your stride. So I just thought I'd let you know that on behalf of a silent majority - because we never comment when you do good - and say keep it up. :-)

Elie, good job moderating the idiot comments - this site has become much better to read the last few days. I was never "offended" by the racist/asslobster comments; they just made the comments page impossible to read for those of us looking for some substance.

Elie, good job moderating the idiot comments - this site has become much better to read the last few days. I was never "offended" by the racist/asslobster comments; they just made the comments page impossible to read for those of us looking for some substance.

People arguing against poker/gambling are douches. In law school (when I was broke) the best nights involved a hold em game for a twenty dollar buy in. Everyone would throw another ten for beer and food. It was great and where else can you have fun, break balls and get a buzz for $30? Now, we still do the same thing when it works out, higher buy ins, better food (same beer) and now single malts. Its great. Gambling is not bad for society. Addiction is.

How come ATL has not commented on Cooley's freeze of attorney salaries, (secretarial salaries were not frozen) and half Skadden bonuses?

"On the other hand, you can put me in a poker game against novices, give them a steady stream of great cards and give me a steady stream of 3/4 off-suit, and I'm going to do alright. (put another way, you put against professional people and give me rockets every other hand and I'm still going to lose my shirt.) "
- Elie

I would like to say that this is the single dumbest thing I have ever read. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. Have you ever played a hand of poker in your life? If you get dealt Aces every other hand, there is not a soul on the planet who would beat you. Good God, man. You are either a) delusional, or b) desperate to use the term "rockets", which has not been cool in a decade.

The last person to try and convince me that poker was a skill was a Lehman analyst. He's now playing poker online from his parents' basement, where he can do the least harm to civilization.

39 - so I guess you and your buddies never sought to acheive greatness? You know, like talking to a girl, or--heaven forbid--GETTING LAID?

42 NAILED IT. Efficient poker markets hypothesis.

-Former online poker pro and present T4 law student

39 - "break balls"???? really? you, my friend, are bad for society. wow.

"You know what would be awesome, if the legal system got its claws out of my online poker "supplementary income" program. "

oh please donk. you probably get AJ under the gun at a full table and push all in everytime. I bet you play $2 sngs on stars. lame....

Two separate thoughts regarding this:

1) Columbia used to have a suggested reading list for those coming in as 1Ls -- and there was a Twain short story on the list that the attorneys in these cases should have read when putting on their cases
http://www.readbookonline.net/readOnLine/1540/

2) Big shout out to Tiffany Williamson -- CLS alum -- and kick ass poker player.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiffany_Williamson

http://www.pokerpages.com/players/profiles/65111/tiffany-williamson.htm

Paid for my wife's wedding ring playing on Bodog; paid for my honeymoon with a PokeStars tourney.

There are more idiots playing online poker than posting on ATL.

Paid for my wife's wedding ring playing on Bodog; paid for my honeymoon with a PokerStars tourney.

There are more idiots playing online poker than posting on ATL.

The fact that any gambling is illegal is an absurd anachronism.

Forstooth bitches, fosooth.

40 -- wait, wait, let me guess: you just got back from the club, drunk and you typed whatever came into your mind because you know it's anonymous. For-what-the-fuck? Shit, you are a disgrace.

Matt Damon: James Bond is a "imperialist, mysoginist sociopath."

18, "The reason gambling is bad for society is because it is based on taking from your fellow man without producing or returning anything of value."

I take it you're not a fan of Social Security, welfare and Obama's expansion of "refundable tax credits," right? Right?

every time I meet a "professional poker player" I want to believe in a vengeful God.

"My attitude is that if the economy's good for folks from the bottom up, it's gonna be good for everybody. I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody."

- BHO

Speaking of online pojer, here's a great HuffPo article on the topic:

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gen/58599/original.jpg

18, "The reason gambling is bad for society is because it is based on taking from your fellow man without producing or returning anything of value."

Sort of like having that second, third, and fourth associate read a document for $300/hour to check for typos?

All of us in Biglaw are proud that we get paid way more than we contribute to society. Those of us doing '33 Act compliance know it's a cold day in hell when the lawyers actually catch some untruth and prevent it from entering a prospectus (the purpose for us being paid a fortune), those of us in litigation know it's a cold day in hell when that second year's $1000 reading of a brief, finding an extra comment, wins a case.

Let's not talk about whether contributions to society should be considered in whether something is allowed. We'd all be put out of business.

57, i like the article but i'm not sure how it relates to online poker

Poker?? I don't even know her!

As someone who came in second in a poker tournament with my buddies tonight, I have to say that Texas Hold'em is a game of skill. I got some lucky cards that got me into all the way to the last two guys (a nice play of a flush draw on the river that got me a huge chip lead early in the game). But I was totally outclassed and no longer the chip leader when it was just the two of us. I didn't stand a chance and my opponent knew it. There is a a lot of skill in Texas Hold'em and I know it because I don't have it. Some luck (like I had tonight) can help a bad card player win a bit for a while, but the real card players will clean up in the long run. It is a fun game and if society wants to keep it it illegal society has to give a reason better than it being a game of chance to make it illegal.

61, read some Hold'em books before playing in your next tournament.

@60, ha.

You guys wouldnt believe this weekend. Man oh man do I hope you guys at ATL take today off. (I say guys because we all know women lawyers always take the day off.)

It is the attitude of "taking" involved in poker that is bad for society. Sitting around a table with the attitude of "the only way I can win is if others lose." A win/lose mentality may be good for the individual in the short term but it is not good for society in the long run. 95%-99% of corporate America does NOT follow this model. Corporate America is based on the attitude of "the only way I win is if I produce something that you value enough to make you willing to part with your money in order to get it. It is win/win." And that includes clients valuing the quality (or at least the perceived quality) of due diligence and brief writing performed by top firms at their exorbitant rates.

I may be naive but I don't know of very many poker games that are played just for the pure entertainment of it - no prizes, no money, with only bragging rights at stake. Can't say the same about sports.

Elie,

You must have never put money down on horses or look at handicappers book otherwise you know there is skill in picking the ponies. Any dope can put money down on a horse or shove money into the put prior to the flop. It takes a real skilled technican to review the handicappers daily race form and use that as a basis to compare whether a horse is running up or down in class, whether it is claims or stakes race, how the horse does a particularly track, whether the horse is a mudder and it is raining.

Poker is mostly skill with a little bit of "luck" - although luck is just odds, and there is considerable skill in knowing how often your hand will win in a given situation.

Re: Elie at 15. No one can win without cards. There's a reason most pros won't even play rags unless they have no choice or they can just flip a chip in to call a blind against another blind. A lot of the skill at poker is position discipline where you know what you can play from what position. Bluffing with rags is only moderately safe against the blinds.

Bluffing with rags is actually really dangerous with bad players whom you don't know personally. Because they are bad, they are too stupid to buy what you are trying to sell them i.e. he raised 4x the pot under the gun, he has a big pair or AK. They'll frequently call anything "just to see a flop."

Poker 101: Don't bluff with garbage when playing with bad playing strangers. Don't play with money you can't afford to lose - mostly because it makes you make very bad decisions. Don't drink. Don't plan on leaving the table anytime soon i.e. don't play under time pressure. And don't play no limit games against someone who is much wealthier than you. They can be atrociously bad and still inflict some horrible beats because you can't scare them out of a pot.

66, that may be true, but the odds makers eliminate much of that skill. If you can beat the Vegas odds makers, then you are the man, but very few people can. So while betting on the horses does have more of a skill element than games like blackjack or craps (which, assuming you don't count cards or cheat, are long-run losing games), it still is much more of a luck game than poker where, at worst, your winnings are cut into by the house taking a rake of the pot.

God, I hope the poker fad dies out soon.

The slang is stupid and everyone thinks he's a poker expert. Most of these idiots who brag about their winnings forget to mention how much they've lost (in both time and money).

Card games should be reserved for those serving in the military and those serving time in prison.

68 - you are confusing sports wagering in Vegas with pari-mutuel wagering at the race track. When betting on horses, you only need to be smarter than the majority of the money, which influences the odds. Wagering strategy, as in poker, is of very high value in horse playing.

There are many similarities between poker and horse racing. There are also many differences. The two major differences are that horse tracks take a MUCH bigger percentage (up to 22% of the pool on some of the more exotic wagers) and that horse racing is a much more difficult game to master (i.e. become consistently profitable at) than texas hold 'em.

70 - Agree. That would be because Texas Hold 'em is mostly mathematical and the formidable players you deal with are pretty consistent faces (you need to be good - or very rich - to stay around for a while), whereas there is tremendous turnover in horse racing due to length of career of horse.

There is a lot of turnover in poker rooms as well, but frankly, fish are fish.

68 - House rake and time charges can actually be very difficult to beat, depending on the game. I remember seeing math showing that for the average player, the rake made poker effectively unwinnable, just as much as the long-term house edge in non-advantage player craps or blackjack.

You beat obnoxious rakes, if you have to play them ("only game in town") by playing like a rock moreso than normal. Rake is almost always capped, so if you only play big pots, you pay a lesser % of the rake from the table. Calling everything in a high % rake game is a surefire way to lose money.

You obviously should never play a game that has both antes and a stiff rake. That's just robbery.

The same argument was made in a New Jersey case challenging the legality of pay-to-play fantasy sports a couple of years ago. Ultimately the case was dismissed. A link to an article about the NJ case is as follows: http://jolt.unc.edu/abstracts/volume-8/ncjltech/p59

The same argument was made in a New Jersey case challenging the legality of pay-to-play fantasy sports a couple of years ago. Ultimately the case was dismissed. A link to an article about the NJ case is as follows: http://jolt.unc.edu/abstracts/volume-8/ncjltech/p59

Elie - You said: "But picking the horse will always be more "luck based" than any poker game because ultimately the outcome is beyond your control. "

66's response is right. Furthermore Elie, making control determinative of whether it is gambling or the level of regulation for the gambling activity is a slippery slope --- investing in the stock market is also beyond your control. Most investors have little control over the movement of stock prices --- those that do and still play without disclosure usually end up in jail. Poker, stocks, AND horses can all have an intellecual approach applied to substantially increase the ability to improve your position. They should all be treated as games of skill (with sports betting and perhaps blackjack included as well). Other gambling should be outlawed or at least come with an implied understanding that what you are doing is inherently entertainment as you will lose in the long run and no roulette system or baccharat score keeping can stop that.

Elie - You said: "But picking the horse will always be more "luck based" than any poker game because ultimately the outcome is beyond your control. "

66's response is right. Furthermore Elie, making control determinative of whether it is gambling or the level of regulation for the gambling activity is a slippery slope --- investing in the stock market is also beyond your control. Most investors have little control over the movement of stock prices --- those that do and still play without disclosure usually end up in jail. Poker, stocks, AND horses can all have an intellecual approach applied to substantially increase the ability to improve your position. They should all be treated as games of skill (with sports betting and perhaps blackjack included as well). Other gambling should be outlawed or at least come with an implied understanding that what you are doing is inherently entertainment as you will lose in the long run and no roulette system or baccharat score keeping can stop that.

3, ever heard of alan cunningham. hardly a small named pro

To make money playing poker OVER TIME requires skill, but in a given game on a given night, the "luck of the draw” still predominates. Therefore, poker is a game of chance.

Second, there are too many political and public policy barriers for court's to hold otherwise.

Third, if courts ever did hold otherwise, state and local governments would simply outlaw casino “house” poker. There is too much opposition.

The interesting question is whether or not the federal government will allow legal-gaming states to license internet poker sites available to all 50 states.

Given all of the lost tax revenue and lost regulatory accountability for (and motivation to prevent) on-line cheaters, a compelling case can be made to license on-line poker through domiciling internet gambling sites in legal-gaming states.

I challenge everyone on this board to come up with one actual reason why gambling should be outlawed. I have yet to see any remotely credible arguments (on or off ATL).

I challenge everyone on this board to come up with one actual reason why gambling should be outlawed. I have yet to see any remotely credible arguments (on or off ATL).

There is a skill component to handicapping horse racing as well. (Knowing the horse’s history, watching the horse train, knowing the trainers, visiting the paddock, eyeballing the horses ect. ect. then making a skilled judgment about which horses are most likely to win and in what order.)

And yet, the chance factor is ever present. Ergo, illegal gaming except where specifically allowed.

BTW, the reason that the stock markets, the commodities markets, and the derivatives markets are not illegal gaming is by specific federal legislation.

These are not distinctions driven by chance vs. skill, but public policy and legislative fiat.

Dear 80: You said: I challenge everyone on this board to come up with one actual reason why gambling should be outlawed. I have yet to see any remotely credible arguments (on or off ATL).

Here are two:

(I do not necessarily agree with these reasons, but they are nevertheless “credible”):

1. Crime tends to increase in localities that host gaming; this includes but is not limited to prostitution, theft, and home invasion robbery.

2. A certain significant percentage of the local population that hosts gaming will experience gambling addition so severe that it will destroy the family of the person addicted.