The QE bubble is ready to burst. They won't attract top flight talent if the stories about how poorly they treat associates are true.

This makes no sense. They've had vicious layoffs in every office, as far as I can tell.

QE is doing well because they don't have the LAZY associates that firms doing the layoffs have. PSA- if you're getting laid off, it's because you are A) lazy or B) incompetent so stop whining about it.

STFU

Comment removed by moderator.

What are the QE associates mad about? Were they really surprised that the partners would see a rise in PPP and pay out half-Skadden bonuses? QE is no better than any other firm - partners are in the game to make money, not to maintain and enhance an associate's way of life. Oh, and QE associates are fugly.

and another thing - if you are laid off, but your better-performing coworker isn't, that means your layoff is PERFORMANCE based. Because if you had performed better, you wouldn't have been laid off. Lol Lazies !!!!!!!!!!!!

Um, yeah, wanting to work less than 12 hours a day 6 days a week is "lazy." You sad, ignorant fuck.

Enjoy your life at the office while your wife (if you can manage to find one) fucks the neighbor/pool boy/postman, and your kids despise you other than as a source of blow money (if you can find time to have any, though in any event they're probably the pool boy's).

People like you DESERVE the life you get.

Another proof that associate compensation has nothing to do with the firm's profitability. The salary is established by peers in the market, and (in pre-2008) by alternative workplaces e.g. PE houses and i-banks.

4/8 is a moron.

P.S.--> Yes, that was for you #4.

-- #9

7- Compared to who? The morlocks at Cravath? The asshats at Skadden?

Gentlemen at my exclusive preparatory academy were quite often given half Skadden bonuses for 2100 hours of work as well as reach arounds without lubricant. This mundane activity rarely resulted in so much as a batted eye.

Gentlemen at my exclusive preparatory academy were quite often given half Skadden bonuses for 2100 hours of work as well as reach arounds without lubricant. This mundane activity rarely resulted in so much as a batted eye.

9 - LOL LAZY, proofread your posts.

3 - If you have details on Quinn layoffs, can you please share them? Or, better yet, email ATL about them so they can investigate?

Why do associates EXPECT a windfall, but are not assuming any of the risks of a partner? Law firms don't owe you anything. You work and get paid. If the law firms like you enough, they pay you more. You don't like it, then leave. It's smart that Quinn is uping its PPP. I'm sure its PPP numbers are going to attract a couple of partners from other law firms with a good book of business. When the economy does turn around, I doubt any freshly minted law student is going to know which firms laid off associates, which firms stiffed associates with boni, or which firms were just treading water. The only stakeholder Quinn should worry about regarding its PPP numbers is the client - I can see a couple of clients getting pissed off at their legal bills in the next few weeks after seeing those profit numbers.

This law firm is fictional. I have never heard of such a place.

M. McDeere

What are the QE associates mad about? Were they really surprised that the partners would see a rise in PPP and pay out half-Skadden bonuses? QE is no better than any other firm - partners are in the game to make money, not to maintain and enhance an associate's way of life. Oh, and QE associates are fugly.

Yeah 18 the entitlement philosophy of associates today is ridiculous. For goodness sakes they whine about how hard studying for the bar exam (a MINIMUM COMPETENCY test) was, and act like the world owes them a $200k salary in return.

Quinn did not even pay half-Skadden bonuses. Having to hit 2100 as a 2nd or 3rd year to get market is not the same as either having a 1950 or 2000 billable requirement or alternatively like most elite firms having a lockstep bonus.

Among associates, top performers at OMM made way more money than those at Quinn. If you are an associate, where would you rather be?

@20:

Really? Might want to check your facts there, *especially* re: QE.

Quinn did not even pay half-Skadden bonuses. Having to hit 2100 as a 2nd or 3rd year to get market is not the same as either having a 1950 or 2000 billable requirement or alternatively like most elite firms having a lockstep bonus.

I am offended. PLEASE MODERATE

23 = liar to the Susanth Power!

Are firms delaying start dates for incoming associates?

cahill?

These comments are not intelligent enough. Please remove.

24, I did check my facts, and I apologize. QE associates are WAY fugly.

Layoffs?! Don't talk about layoffs! Are you kidding me? Layoffs?!

only 78 partners at a 400 lawyer firm? sounds like a horrible place for associates to work.

31,
I was referencing a comment now removed. No apology required.
-24

34, I accept your apology. You are a gentleman and a scholar.

Does anybody else have the "Mr. Plow" song stuck in their head?

...call Mr. Plow
cuz thats my name
that name again
is Mr. Plow...

25 is right. QE failed to pay even half Skadden bonuses. You would be better off at not only Skadden, but OMM, GDC, Munger, Irell, and presumably PH, who will announce bonuses in a couple of weeks. I really fail to see why associates continually fall for QE sales pitch. Promise the world, and deliver a regular boring firm job, with miserable hours, less than market pay, and a bunch of ugly co-workers who think its so cool to be able to wear flip flops to work.

Which LA firm has the most attractive associates? partners? staff?

Posting on blogs offends me. Please moderate.

Crass Bobster

JMBM in LA - solid PPP and more partners than associates....go figure that out.

The worst of the worst.

http://www.philly.com/philly/opinion/inquirer/20090128_Editorial__Judges_Sentenced.html

19 = subtle Memphis trolling

I wonder what John Quinn made personally last year. If $3.3M was the average across all partners (including the brand new ones), he had to make at least $10M.

just because ATL hasn't been informed of layoffs doesn't mean that there were no layoffs. there have been layoffs. you'll have to think of another way to suck JBQ's d*ck

40 -- JMBM (Jeffer Mangels Butler and Marmaro) is a joke. Most of the partners are non-equity and not included in PPPs. Last I heard, non-equity partners made LESS total comp. than mid/senior level associates at large firms. So, that is how you can have more partners than associates and PPPs that are OK. You only count some of the partners. (Kirkland has a similar issue.) And JMBM PEPs are way lower than the larger firms in LA. JMBM used to be a player and competitor for top talent, not so much anymore. That said, they used to have some pretty good looking lawyers. Not sure if they still do.

DON'T FORGET THAT MANY OF THESE PARTNERS LOST HALF THEIR WEALTH IN THE MARKET CRASH! associates who are pissed can take solace in that! imagine what it's like to work your butt off all your life, have a nice nest egg, and then lose 30-50% of it in less than a year (not including victims of madoff, which many partners probably are). this has to be driving some of the partner greed lately -- how do they explain to thei wives that they lost half of their savings but are giving 25 y/o punks 36k in bonuses!??

watch for skadden divorces to sky rocket.

What a bunch of whinos...

You got half the bonus of last year. Your partners are making lots of money.

So what? The partners keep the ship afloat so you all have a place to go to work to in the morning. And when you're partners...you'll do the same damn thing.

I hope we can change these profits into tax revenue.
-BHO

47 = fail.

QE is doing well because they overcharge their clients...that will end as clients become more cost conscious of overrated litigation shops reaming them...(i.e. charging ridiculous fees for a IP dispute in Mattell, raping the Parmalat estate, only to get their ass kicked). It should also be noted that Parmalat was part contingency (that has to hurt). QE is a fraud.

34 and 35

....and now they kiss...

Whatever happened to the gentleman who posted nuggets regarding the JUIICY INSIDES of others?

Whatever happened to the gentleman who posted nuggets regarding the JUIICY INSIDES of others?

Whatever happened to the gentleman who posted nuggets regarding the JUIICY INSIDES of others?

Quinn's New York partners are either short-sighted or stupid. Their New York associates will be the first ones to jump ship when the economy starts to recover, and from the four QE associates I know, Quinn's New York Office is the one bringing in all the cash. Their NY Office is very associate heavy, the West Coast is partner heavy.

This reeks of amateur hour. John Quinn still thinks he's running a 20 lawyer firm struggling to find work. Time to pull a Bill Gates and pass the reins to someone with a clue.

Shouldn't this post be entitled "Quinn Raking It In" instead of "Quinn Rolling It In"?

Actually 47, the vast majority do NOT keep the ship afloat, they just sucked the right powers that be well enough & long enough, and were by chance in the right spot at the right moment, to get a slice of the pie.

Most partners are no better than the average senior associate in my experience, they were just in the right place at the right time (e.g., securities or finance types coming up in '05 instead of '09, or litigators coming up right before trial on a leanly staffed case).

QE 4th Year. RE: #55 - TITCR. PC has to know he's going to lose top flight talent and be left with the dregs. Worse, we're going to take a massive hit in recruiting.

17, I wouldn't want to share the juicy insides (names) but, if you spread the Quinn cheeks . . .

According to NALP's numbers as of 2/1/08, Quinn had 440 attorneys firmwide, and had extended offers to 45 of their '07 summer associates. So, not counting attrition, layoffs, or summers taking a year off to clerk, they'd be at 495 attorneys right now. Normal attrition, etc. would probably drop that to somewhere between 440 and 460. Firms generally try not to shrink if they're busy.

But according to Quinn's online directory, they now have about 400 attorneys firmwide, a 9% drop from this time last year.

Also, they had 259 associates last February (according to NALP), plus the 45 incoming summers, but now they only have 218 associates listed on Martindale. And a fair number of those associates are no longer listed on the Quinn website.

So . . . maybe some of the missing quinners were able to find new jobs last year, and maybe some were fired for performance, and maybe some got lost during that retreat in Switzerland.

But if Quinn's doing so well, wouldn't you expect them to at least stay closer to 440 attorneys firmwide?

Quinn has asked a number of associates to leave. The partners offered to keep the affected associates on the firm webpage and allow the associates to keep their email and voicemail. In exchange, the affected associates are to keep quiet about the shortage of work at Quinn. You'll be seeing a lot of resumes from Quinn associates in the coming months.

57 - "right place right time" has been long an excuse for LAZIES. It's funny how hard-working people seem to have better luck than lazies.

Still nobody wanting to discuss JUICY INSIDES?

Still nobody wanting to discuss JUICY INSIDES?

Still nobody wanting to discuss JUICY INSIDES?

If you think Quinn screwed its associates, just ask any associate from Wilson Sonsini and the embarrassing bonuses they annouced individually over there today. Completely shameful.

61 - you are a lobsTTTerd.

65-what do you mean? Were WSGR bonuses bad this year? Did laid off associates get bonuses?

65-what do you mean? Were WSGR bonuses bad this year? Did laid off associates get bonuses?

65-what do you mean? Were WSGR bonuses bad this year? Did laid off associates get bonuses?

65-what do you mean? Were WSGR bonuses bad this year? Did laid off associates get bonuses?

In Quinn LA office have not heard of layoffs. The few people who left recently had plenty of work, and found jobs they preferred. At least as far as I know.
Please let me know if I am wrong.

It does not make you lazy to be pissed off that your firm, despite yet another record profit year for its partners, gave you half the bonus a Skadden associate received for billing upwards of 800 hours more (Skadden minimum = 1600, Quinn only went above half-Skadden at 2400+ and didn't match Skadden until 2600+). Especially when you think about how you could have gone on that vacation, or gone to your kids' little league game, or dated, or not gotten so out of shape, or had some semblance of a life with those hours back. Or let's put it another way -- while QE partners experienced an 11% raise from 2007, associates who billed 2100-2400 experienced over a 60% bonus cut from 2007. I don't know of any law firm that conducts business this way.

The "QE layoffs" people are trolls or something. I don't know of one involuntary associate departure in LAO over the past 3 or 4 months. And I've heard nothing from MANY other people at NYO, SFO, SVO with whom I talk regularly. Maybe you're thinking of the San Diego "office" closing a few years back?

67-70: No, laid off associates didn't get a bonus, and of the scant 60% of associates at the firm left that did get bonuses (ie, 40% saw no bonus at all), they were completely pathetic. Mid levels with hours in excess of 2200-2300 didn't even get close to half-skadden. Laughably low here. And a salary freeze to boot! Yay!

72 is right. There is no glory in billing 2400+ hours, and you aren't lazy for demanding appropriate compensation, even in the current hiring climate, if you've made significant sacrifices that helped produce $3.3m PPP. IMO, QE partners probably feel they can get away with this bc the opportunities for lateralling are not very plentiful right now. A mass exodus of quality associates is therefore unlikely. But, this is shortsighted. Any rational law student will think twice before signing up with a firm that seems inclined to screw you as best it can at the earliest opportunity. Most people QE hires have options and could do much better for themselves by going elsewhere in LA or NY. Someday the economy will rebound and firms again will be anxious to recruit the best and brightest. Memories will be longer than people think....

If this is how Quinn treats associates in the good times, how will Quinn treat them in the bad times?

The few people that left QE involuntarily had performance issues - these departures were not a surprise. Still the LA office has slowed down and the balance of power is shifting a bit to NY and Silicon Valley. This was clear in the breakdown of last year's partner elections. What the future will bring, noone knows, but QE is generally in a better position than most other firms.

47: Actually, when I make partner (and it will not be at Quinn), I would not elect to do the same thing. First and foremost, it strikes me as slimy to cut associate compensation sharply in order to pull in record profits of $3.3 million per partner. I personally would sacrifice my huge profits to compensate the people who worked so hard to generate them. Second, it strikes me as short-sighted. It can hardly be disputed that Quinn is greedy and ruthless toward associates. That's not a reputation I'd want, because in the long run, the success of a firm depends on the quality of its work; the quality of its work depends on the quality of its associates; and the quality of its associates depends on its reputation. Obviously Quinn's actions are logical for an amoral profit-maximizing firm in the short term, but I predict the long-term negative consequences will outweigh the short-term rewards.

77, how can you say "few people"? They went from 440 lawyers in 2008 to 400 lawyers today, unless the nalp data is wrong.

And that's *after* making 45 summer associates offers according to nalp.

So, overall turnover of at least 95 attorneys. Probably more when you factor in the number of laterals who joined the firm last year.

For a firm with only 250 to 260 associates, that's crazy huge attrition. Either the firm is just a horrific place to work, or it's firing people in high enough numbers that it's just not plausible to claim performance.

Quinn 6th-year here.

Unfortunately, Quinn will keep getting away with how it (he) does business. I agree that over the long term this will affect recruiting; but Quinn (at least the NYO) doesn't really grow its own partners anymore. Most partners (again, at least w/r/t to the NYO, which is driving profits) are laterals. Specifically, the rainmakers are handpicked from other firms (e.g., Rick Werder, Mike Carlinsky, Faith Gay, Susheel Kirplani, etc.).

Junior partners don't make anywhere near $3.3M per year. The disparity in partner comp is HUGE. I would not want to be a junior and/or service partner at Quinn. Quinn is great if you're a superstar, but if you're not, you're worked to death and treated as the fungible cog that you are.

Likewise, associates for the most part are just worker bees, billing away. Superstars can get some good experiece - emphasis on the word "can" - and the possibility of huge partner profits will always keep superstars there. Heck, they even pay their superstar associates (i.e., 2800+ billers) pretty well.

If and when Quinn comes back down to earth, it won't be because of mediocre associate recruiting. I see a couple of ways that Quinn's bubble will burst: 1) At some point, they won't be able to sustain throwing hoards of money at lateral partners. For example, Quinn's NYO has ~150 or so lawyers; which doesn't seem like a big shop but in reality it is because it is only litigation. Not too many NY firms have lit departments with more lawyers. 2) John Quinn makes all the decisions. Indeed, the weight of power lies in LA. But the NYO has been driving profits (i.e., it's not a coincidence that PPP has risen in lockstep with the size of the NYO). At some point, egos will get in the way. Or at the very least, John Quinn will retire and the firm will slowly morph into a normal firm.

Does everyone plan on going to or listening to the State of the Firm address? I find it strange that Quinn basically compels us to take part in this. As an associate, hearing about the state of the firm is about as interesting to me as reading an Economist article about the situation in Maldives.

80: I don't agree with you on on one thing. Even if you're not a superstar, that doesn't mean you're fungible. There is a continuum of associate ability and desire like there is in all things in life. I think part of what's wrong is that smart and successful people have been reduced to viewing themselves as "fungible cogs." That's not true. All of us can be great lawyers somewhere.

82 makes a smart point that applies to QE and other firms. If it takes billing 2800 hrs or being a superstar to feel like you are more than a fungible cog, then there is a problem with your employer.

QE LA senior associate here.

The troubling thing isn't the bonus/PPP disparity. It's the fact that making partner seems to be even more of an impossibility than at other firms. Especially if you're home grown (nobody from LA made it this year, last year it was three, all of whom had been up before).

84: This is part of the new strategy to promote to partnership laterals who come in as 'of counsel's or senior associates. There is little opportunity for the homegrown talent.

72 - Not nearly as bad as Latham laying off people who actually made their hours even in this economy!

Remember, unless you're at Latham there is always at least one worse place to work in L.A. Unless you're the master of sucking partner cock and then working all night to make up the non-billable time you spent on it, that is. LLL!

84 & 85, IIRC, back in 2000 the QE NALP form bragged about partnership prospects and assured the the partnership track was "currently 6 years." Something about that "currently" made me uneasy. Rightfully so, as it turns out. Once you become a senior associate, there is little reason imo to stick around a place if there aren't partnership prospects. You're not paid enough to put up with the bullshit. FWIW, starting a firm or going to be a star at a smaller firm seem like better options....

87 -- Speaking of which, anyone know how Baker Marquardt et al are doing? I know they were having trouble getting off the ground profitability-wise. Thought about going the start-up route myself (along with some SLS buddies), but would never have the balls (in this economy for sure).

82 - 80 here. I agree with you; but I also agree with 83. I.e., there is a problem with my employer.

As an associate in the NYO office, I want to say this as clearly as possible to law students: do not accept an offer to work at this firm. You will not receive better experience than at other New York firms. You will not be taught the necessary skills to be a successful litigator. The firm is not interested in spending a single penny on making its associates life easier: Substandard offices, working conditions, support staff, amenities, offices, and colleagues. After the propaganda and the ticker-tape parades for the silliest most insignificant win (and even after some losses), all that is left is a disorganized group of partners fighting over competent associates and wondering when the ponzi scheme that is this firm will end.

88 -- I don't know how they are doing, but I am curious. I've met Jamie. Good guy. FWIW, people I know who have succeeded at going solo have generally been very careful about creating a balance between contingency and billable work, and have watched overhead carefully. It's not easy, for sure, but it's better than killing yourself for no long term benefit...

32 - fantastic underrated post.

Unfortunately QE knows associates will bend over and take it since there aren't many jobs to be had IN THIS ECONOMY.

90 - you must be a joy to work with

Susheel Kirpalani. With an A. Learn to spell, 80.

Loser. WIth an L. Get a life, 94.

80 and 94,

Thanks for the inside scoops. Every other comment is not worth reading.

Is susheel bringing in the bk work? I heard that bk is slow at QE but would like confirmation.

Susheel and his group are VERY busy - he brings in a ton of work

Number 90, there is no way that you work at Quinn. I am certain that you work at one of our jealous competitors who cannot stand the fact that the firm continues to hit the ball out of the park, gets the best associates, keeps rolling in the best litigation work in the country, and has fun doing it.

So, stop your pathetic whinning and send in a resume.

As a longtime associate at Quinn, I can unequivocally tell you that the hype the firm promotes is complete and utter bullshit. Trial opportunities are basically nonexistent and in the rare event that a trial comes up, the partners are the only ones getting real trial experience. Quinn just gave the state of the firm address this week and it turns out that less than 20% of the associates have had any trial experience while at the firm. And keep in mind that being holed up in a war room doing legal research while the partners are trying the case counts as "trial experience."

Run far, far away. Substandard offices, support staff, lack of training, and complete and utter abuse of the associates should send you scampering.

5 out of 5 of my friends from HLS '02 who went to Quinn after law school have left, and all described the experience as horrible. tons of doc review and little real work.

one specifically noted, as the comment above, one friends single "trial experience" was simply writing memos from the shitty hotel they stuck him in.

the cheapness also included extremely tight dinner budgets when you work late, crappy worn-out offices with stained carpets, low quality support staff, sometimes sticking associates in coach even when going cross country, and 2nd rate hotel rooms.

also many partners were "screamers" and the horrible associate/partner ratio is even worst than appears because of the large number of "of counsel" who are essentially senior staff attorneys but do associate work.