spoken buy the guy who is trolling ATL during work

The ship was never afloat...

I have those annoying radio commercials "ya go to B & H" ringing in my head.

Starting your own firm is pretty easy, if you are willing to habla some espanol.

At first I thought it was weird that both Missouri and Kansas have one law school, the University of Missouri-Kansas. Then I realized once again that Elie can't read, and it's the University of Missouri-Kansas City.

#6 - Which is especially ironic considering Elie didn't post this article.

This is a malpractice suit waiting to happen.

My bad, Kash can't read either. This place really is going downhill.

I recently started my own firm after three years at a big firm and am in total support of this. The malpractice insurance is relatively inexpensive. As for clients, I'm defending homeowners in mortgage foreclosure cases. I've gotten more litigation experience in one week than I did in three years. Yeah, it's tough but it's worth it. There are many good web sites that offer solo lawyers decent advice. If you can swing it financially, go for it.

A
Sure
Sign that

Layoffs are
Only
Beginning the
Slow
Truncation of
Excess
Retards

Ah, but 6, this was written by Kas.

Which you would know, if you KNEW HOW TO FUCKING READ!

You missed the best part on page two of the article:

"For now, Buckley lives at home with her parents to save money, and she is looking for a second job. Hutchings has a second job as a hostess at a Country Club Plaza restaurant."

WOULD YOU LIKE FRIES WITH THAT?!?

Kas, really?

I find 11 so stupid that...oh WAIT! That's so neat! I get it! Haha.

They couldn't find work as real lawyers, so they opened their own firm. They don't know ANYTHING.

Welcome to a malpractice suit. Kash says "they might know legal theory" -- I wouldn't even go that far.

Most of your legal education is accomplished by apprenticeship. Taking money from people when you don't know how to do anything is MALPRACTICE.

Great marketing. Hire us as your lawyers! No law firm would but we have a nice sign.

13 - really? you're clowning these people because they're trying to make ends meet? Once the Bigfirm model implodes (which will be soon), you'll be begging people like them for a job.

13... nice work. Kash, seriously, wtf? I expect better from you than from Elie, but you seem to have dropped the ball on this one. She is moonlighting as a Country Club hostess!!! How can you miss that? I demand that you edit the post to add it and give a nice shoutout to Gunner #13.

Also... 11 is really funny.

Best of luck to them.

P.S. The red-headed girl looks like Chris Farley in drag.

Fucking gutless morons, what's wrong with starting you own thing? You can always learn on the fly. Aren't law schools supposed to teach you how to do some reserach, and so one would be able to research how to do something you haven't done before.

It's University of Missouri-Kansas City, you stupid fat fuck. What, are your eyes too fat to see the screen? What the fuck is wrong with you, you retarded fat piece of shit?

$10 says Elie didn't really graduate from Harvard.

What another retard from the future. Where's the Delorean guys. GLITCHES today everywhere on ATL. That malpractice suit waiting to happen just keeps hoppin'

Michael Ray! You've showed a totally inappropriate actual understanding of grammar. I do not approve. Take it from me, that line should have gone:
"Them ships don't never float."
--Elie

11 -- nailed it. (Fight the power, friendo.)

@23 I think it's a feature given this post - it's nice to have the comments always end with "This is a malpractice suit waiting to happen."

Cuts to the heart of the matter

Wow - this is utterly brave on their part. I wish them the best! The website looks pretty good, but there's a frame on the left with nothing in it which is a bit odd.

How come some guys post from the future? If they know the hack into the system, couldn't they also post in the past?
I'd go to every single thread and pwn every first douche poster. Haha, that'd be awsome.

20 - don't forget the David Spade look-alike in the foreground. Is this a real firm or just a way of promoting a new version of "Tommy Boy" in pantsuits and drag....

This is fine if you have rich parents willing to throw money away on office rent and equipment (obviously a waitressing job doesn't cover that).

I was at Office Depot today.

File in the blank legal forms:
Prenups: $30
Incorporations: $50
Simple Wills: $30

Good luck to these girls competing against that.

First, their clients are unlikely to sue them unless them make some very serious mistake (because of the nature of their work and likely clients)

Second, by the time they have litigation-happy clients, they'll have lots of experience.

Takes a lot of balls (a lot) to do this. I tip my hat to them.

6 = EPIC FAILURE IN LIFE.

Would've sounded much better as Hutchings Buckley.

27, it's not "brave" at all. This isn't two lawyers who are leaving the comfort of their partner-track positions at big law firms; this is two women who didn't do well enough in school to actually get hired EVER, but have rich and indulgent parents who are willing to throw money away on an office lease, web design, equipment, and lexis/westlaw subscriptions (after already throwing away three years of law school tuition and living expenses). These girls have risked exactly nothing.

*starts new firm, Bitches & Hos LLC*

33, in point of fact it takes no balls to do this. See the article and picture. Q.E.D.

Is it legal for law firms to be set up as LLCs in Missouri?

Starting your own firm is going to be the wave of the future. 9 months from now cash will be running short for the midlevel biglaw associates that are getting the ax.

Without hookers and blow you might as well represent, well, whoever.

Wow. I'm impressed that they have taken some initiative and are making their own way, all in spite of conventional wisdom.

Are you sure they're lawyers?

“At least we have some place to go every day,” Buckley said.
______________________

Wow, listen to that passion.

@36

I can't speak to the rest of your post, but if you click the link it's clear their parents aren't throwing away much coin on web design.

36: You severely overstate the capital expense. Keep in mind this is Missouri we're talking about. Lexis/Westlaw also extremely cheap for solos, nothing like what we pay in biglaw (much less what we pass on to our clients).

B&H to 190!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I worked for a firm right out of law school. The lawyers there taught me nothing, and threw me into court on my own the first week, and I had to learn how to practice law on my own. There is no apprenticeship, its sink or swim.

B&H to 190!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Best part:

"She is a member of the Kanasas City Metropolitan Bar Association, the Association of Women Lawyers and the American Bar Association."

Where the heck is Kanasas? Not ready for prime time.

Its a little tough doing that right out of school, but if you've been practicing a few years and have some skills, then hanging out a shingle isn't a bad idea. Work less, make more. (Unless you work so less that you make less.)

I hate malpractice suits from the future. Worse than ones from the present.

"Buckley & Hutchings, LLC offers a vareity of legal services at an affordable rate."

I know of a number of biglaw associates who have done this....and each has a spouse who has a job with health insurance. If you are the sole breadwinner, it's a little trickier.

LOL ONE OF THEM WENT TO BALLS STATE

39,

I hope to god you don't practice in or around the state of Missouri.

Buckley & Hutchings #1 in BIG EMPLOYEE LAW!!!!! http://www.buckleyhutchings.com/Services.html

I am all for people trying their hand at their own business but these are a couple of idiots: has anyone else noticed that their website is riddled with typos? For crying out loud, they barely have any text and yet include such beauties as "Kanasas" and "vareity".

You would think they would at least fix typos after the article on the newspaper brought some publicity -- hate to say but these are sloppy sloppy sloppy

I heard that this was how WILDMAN HARROLD got their start.

This is a malpractice suit waiting to happen.

Judging by their website, starting this venture cost a buck fifty and took about twenty minutes . . .

Just want to point out that the vast majority of lawyers in this country are complete and utter dimwits, who handle very simple, relatively low dollar value matters. Not all law happens in biglaw. Not even most law happens in biglaw. Just open up an office near a court house somewhere and you will have work. It may not thrill you. It may be DWI defenses and restraining orders for years. It all pays. These women will be just fine if they work hard. In 20 years they will probably make more money than all of us biglaw associates slogging away for someone else's book of business.

36 - in this economy not getting hired has less to do with bad grades. I am in the top 10% of my class and still do not have a job lined up after graduation b/c I didn't do a summer associate job my second summer, and most firms have frozen hiring. I have many firms say "we love you but just can't hire you right now". So please stop sounding like an ignorant tool.

These women will do fine as long as they start small and simple. It's only malpractice if you cannot LEARN the law that is necessary, and don't get a mentor to help you. I'm sure they know lawyers that can help them with any big substantive issues they have trouble with. I think the majority of you are jealous because you don't have the guts to be your own boss.

The header to their "Staff" page FTW:

"Buckley & Hutchings, LLC is committed to providing excellect service for every client."

http://www.buckleyhutchings.com/Staff.html

If that's the kind of excellectnce I can expect in court, I'll stay pro se.

hmmm . . . if you shaved those two they would like Boy George twins

#36
Bar Associations usually include free westlaw/lexis with their dues.. for e.g. check the NY City Bar assoc. under small law firm center tab.

Office--why bother?..Again you can reserve space 1 day in advance for free at the NY City bar assoc. Or meet the client at their work...it's not like your meeting the CEO of Pfizer, your clients are just everyday people. Or go to regus.com and get a virtual office for a $120/month.

Subscriptions, form books, treatises, etc..again join the your local bar, and guess what its free...all the same same stuff you referred to when the senior associate told you to go figure it out.

Client sources: other small firms, craigslist..yeah it kinda blows, but its a good way to use your severance pay after you get shit canned from Big Law.

But yeah, the paying out of pocket for health insurance thing---sucks ass.

I want to support this, I really do. I have a few great friends from law school who were forced to go this route after graduation, and I wish each and every one of them the best luck.

But in the name of all that is holy... do better than this. Girls let this be a lesson -- when you failed to get your mrs. degree as an undergrad, going to law school to take a second bite at the apple is NOT a good idea.

How do you look yourself in the mirror every evening on your way to the Plaza restaurant where you hostess?

More importantly... if I go into a restaurant (any, I don't care) and see the attorney I just had a free consult with WORKING as a waitress / hostess / manager / cook / anything I'm never ever going back, and I'm telling everyone I know not to call them.

Oh, and shout out to 11. That is taking it to the next level. Good to see someone who puts care into their work.

64, look at the picture stupid. They do indeed have an office.

61: top 10% of your class WHERE?

I, for one, would be entirely comfortable trusting my legal business to a law firm with sixteen months of collective experience.

61, If you're in the top 10% and want a firm job, why in the world didn't you get a summer associate position? The game may be rotten, but you can't change its rules.

they look like Boy George with hair (and I mean the current Boy George. not the 80s version)

I'm living the shingle hanger's dream, in my van, down by the river.

-Pop Bottles

I am a V15 biglaw midlevel and am not sure what is best: not having a job or having a job that sucks ass -- this job, my friends, sucks ass (and keeps me working, even in a recession, until 1 or 2 am every day)

66, the point of 64 is that you can start-up with a relatively small amount of capital--laptop, bar association dues, and malpractice insurance, and an office if you happen to live in a cheap flyover state or a virtual office in an expensive city.

"I have many firms say 'we love you but just can't hire you right now' So please stop sounding like an ignorant tool."

61, if you really believe the bs that every firm feeds the applicants they reject, then you're the one who is an ignorant tool.

Hey, Mystal!

Correct me again and meet the back of my hand!!!

Good luck to them. Shows inititive and a determination to make the most out of a bad economy.

27, the website looks good??? It is one of those DIY jobs from GoDaddy. As for whether or not they are qualified to offer legal services, their bar passage seems to indicate that they are. Whether or not you are wise to use attorneys with absolutely no practical experience is another question. Working a second job is a responsible thing to do--it's not worthy of ridicule.

"Also, running a law firm is closely akin to running a small business."

I would think that running a law firm IS running a small business. What are the differences that only make it CLOSELY AKIN?

I'm all for lawyers going solo or starting their own firm with a couple of partners. But not students straight out of law school. I've seen a few people really flounder doing that.

I think most seasoned lawyers would agree that it takes at least three (but probably closer to five) years to develop enough skill to render advice and counsel that is worth any meaningful amount of money.

When no one will hire you, then you must hire yourself.

You don't even have to start a firm - you can freelance attorney here:

www.elance.com

Check out the Legal tab. Lookout Biglaw partners, the premium you extract from client connections is being threatened.

This is very gutsy. I wish them the best of luck. You don't need years of experience to fix parking tickets or handle a lot of other routine matters. If they can last a couple years, they should be doing fine.

Guys in my high school used to hire themselves all the time. It was no big deal.

I have a new idea for a business: corral the collective power of ATL commenters for spell-checking legal docs. Man, some of you guys are good. Within minutes of the original article you have managed to scour the girls' website and find all their spelling errors. Very impressive.

People on ATL hate on anything that makes them feel insecure. In this case, they know that upper middle-class daddy (my daddy's a lawyer and I'll be a lawyer too! Yay!) and their LSAT tudor can't get them guts and entrepreneurship.

can you practice law as an LLC?

83 +1

it's not gutsy to start your own firm when you have no other job. if they had voluntarily left a well paid and secure job at a medium sized or large law firm to begin their practice, that would be gutsy. this move is desperate.

please please please god don't let me get no-offered at the end of the summer - I can't bear the thought of having to do what these people did

I don't know how it works in Missouri, but here in AZ most counties outsource some of their Legal Aid work for $25/hour (misdemeanors) and $50/hour (felonies) with guaranteed payments of $200 and $350 respectively.

That is guaranteed money from criminal defense clients--not the worst thing in the world, and at 2,000 hours a year that's anywhere between $50,000 and $100,000. Maybe these girls should bite the morality bullet and look into something like that--sure beats the heck out of hostessing.

83 = FAIL

It doesn't take much "scouring" to spot preposterous spelling errors in their page banners. If you're trying to get a law firm off the ground it might help to spell check your website and give yourself some hope that prospective clients buy into the "excellecnt" service you provide

It is clear that the folks making comments have been spoon fed at big name law schools, wined and dined during big law summers and currently (secretly) praying that they don't get fired from their big law jobs. for the vast majority of people who don't go to top five schools, coming out of school and GOING TO WORK is the natural and normal thing to do. Perhaps if the top 5 schools stopped intellectually masturbating long enough to teach their students some real world skills (that they did not have to try to get in a boring ass big law job reading boxes of documents), then YOU TOO could graduate with enough knowledge to go out and create your own destiny (as opposed to praying big law partner remembers your name long enough to try to intervene when the list of purged attorneys comes out...)

Shorter 91:

Law schools outside of the top 5 should become vocational schools and stop pandering to the elite pansies that can get into top 5 schools.

Maybe if you went to a less crappy law school you'd have a job. Mo-K.C.?? That is even weaker than going to Missouri.

Not to mention they are fugly.

80, I am sure big companies like IBM and Bank of America will soon be looking on Elance to find lead counsel for their multi-million dollar cases.

91 (and many others), please read 36 and 87. These girls aren't making a free decision "to go out and create [their] own destiny." They are unable to get hired anywhere, so they are having an as-yet entirely unsuccessful venture (see "second" jobs) subsidized by their parents (as law school presumably also was). Had they gone to a top 5 law school, they would not be in such a predicament (to the extent it is one, given the indulgent parents).

91, how are you inferring that these TTT graduates who have to work as waitresses and live at their parents houses because they can't make a dime lawyering have "graduate[d] with enough knowledge to go out and create [their] own destin[ies]." The clear weight of the evidence suggests the opposite conclusion.

#61...your analysis of what makes out a claim for malpractice is not correct. You're right for what establishes incompetence under the rules of professional conduct, but that doesn't mean that the things you actually do or fail to do meet the standard of care.

#61...your analysis of what makes out a claim for malpractice is not correct. You're right for what establishes incompetence under the rules of professional conduct, but that doesn't mean that the things you actually do or fail to do meet the standard of care.

@40 - There is Kansas City, Missouri and Kansas City, Kansas. The only thing in Kansas City, Kansas is a Nascar track. Kansas City, Missouri contains most of the law firms and University of Missouri at Kansas City school of law.

@89 - There are similar opportunities in Kansas City. Also, the KC bar is very cordial to one other and there are many mentoring opportunities.

94, I appreciate your sarcasm and agree with your underlying sentiment - BoA and IBM will never use a system like Elance.

But the problem is that BoA and IBM are won't be around much longer, because they wasted all their profits on law firms. So who cares if they won't hire you through Elance?

B&H=

Bitch and Ho....lol

Seriously, 90? You think my idea is "fail"? I think it is brilliant. I am the smartest person in the world. Next time I have something that needs to be reviewed, I could post it here and within minutes I could rest assured that the brightest spellers in the universe have certified it to be free of any typos.

You're the fail. You are a spelling egoist AND a dumb ass.

-83

most people here are way too wrapped up in where they went to law school. that matters for nothing after your first job. have you ever met a great lawyer who went to a low-end law school? you will. have you ever met a crappy lawyer who went to a top law school. if you haven't, you've not been doing this job for very long.

Good for them!!!

"[F]reshly minted lawyers may know legal theory, but they rarely know the more practical stuff: how to bill clients, for example, or how to navigate the court system. Also, running a law firm is closely akin to running a small business. Few young lawyers learning the ropes of their profession could handle the added burden of keeping the books and being sure the light bill gets paid."

"Unfortunately, senior management at Thelen, Thacher, and Heller Ehrman weren't able to handle that added burden either."

AH HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA HA

Seriously, good one. Seriously.

AH HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA HA

@1: haha....wrong. I started my own practice when a couple of my clients offered to give me full-time work as a solo. And I did it after many years' experience, but before this sh*tstorm came down that you are dealing with.

Slaving away as an associate, subjected to the whims of irrational partners, stressing about layoffs, bonuses, salary freezes and canceled vacation plans--now *that* is the lazy head-in-the-sand approach! I'm much happier controlling my own destiny, workflow, and billing. I work less, and make more than senior associates (and most junior partners/of counsel), even after the few additional expenses are subtracted. (Business deductions help there, too.)

It doesn't cost that much to set up a small office: a computer, decent printer/scanner/fax, some firm management software, liability insurance, and you're good to go. (Unlimited Blackberry service is only about $20/month, domain/website with lots of custom e-mail addresses is less than $10/month.) Home offices don't take up much space either, so no need to pay rent. The local bar associations often have conference rooms, libraries and other legal research resources available free or for a minimal charge.

Basically, my clients save money while getting my same services and expertise, and for me it's all profit. The bloated excesses of large firms have been cut out. Having time for midday workouts, hanging at the coffee shop to read things, seeing friends and family, traveling.... Sweet. I would never entertain one thought about joining the biglaw grind again. These frozen margaritas taste just too goddamn good.

Enjoy your slave existence, 1. Must suck always wondering if the next pink slip has your name on it.

103, I understand your point (it is true that the best lawyers I've come across have not universally gone to the best schools), but what your comment is still inaccurate. If you want to change jobs any time before you have a portable book of business (but especially in the first 5-6 years), where you went to law school still matters quite a bit.

There is a handful of recent grads in Chicago that started their own firms because the market is so terrible here.

#48 SUCK MY DICK

Anyone who would put down this entreprenurial spirit because they would rather suck the dick of a partner for 9 years at a BIGLAW firm must either be an Ivy grad or so consumed with his/her pedigree that the sight of a courtroom would scare them shitless. HARVARD et al is a joke. I would take a TTT grad over a Biglaw associate any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Get back on your knees and cup the balls. You spineless fuck.

I look at all of the negative comments and all I see are spoiled brats who lack both originality and foresight. While many are meant to be mindless drones working for BigLaw, never dealing directly with clients or not having a clue what people skills are, these two woman took a chance to try something that may lead them in the right direction. It may not be the right direction for many mindless drones in BigLaw, but it may be right for them.

I think we all must remember that measuring success by money, prestige, or power may work for you, but other may have different gauges of success just as worthy and reqarding.

Brava girls, brava.

I look at all of the negative comments and all I see are spoiled brats who lack both originality and foresight. While many are meant to be mindless drones working for BigLaw, never dealing directly with clients or not having a clue what people skills are, these two woman took a chance to try something that may lead them in the right direction. It may not be the right direction for many mindless drones in BigLaw, but it may be right for them.

I think we all must remember that measuring success by money, prestige, or power may work for you, but other may have different gauges of success just as worthy and reqarding.

Brava girls, brava.

83/102 = EPIC FAIL

It's called spell check - your burgeoning solo practice should ditch the typewriter and invest in at least Word 95. They even put squiggly red lines under the words your mongoloid self misspells so you can't miss them.

@ 110/111

You're right. I measure success by how many people I seat each night at the restaurant where I work after I get done litigating overdue parking tickets. Ten tables and I can leave with a smile.

110/111: to accurately characterize what these girls are doing as "taking a chance," they would have to be passing up some other, safer, option. To the contrary: "he Kansas City Star reports that Sarah Buckley and Alexandra Hutchings were UNABLE TO FIND WORK after passing the Missouri bar exam last year, SO they've started their own firm."

BigLaw=Pink Slips and Obama Backers. 'Nuff Said. Enjoy your meager existence.

If you're new, malpractice insurance is cheap.

109: nice. Moderation removed by commenter.

114: maybe so, but opening your own business always entails risk.

117: risk to your parents' investment in your office lease, maybe. these girls are risking absolutely nothing.

@84,

Guts? Yes. But entrepreneurship? Well, just because they went out on their own doesn't mean they have a clue as to how to run a business.

Hey, counselor -- may I have my check, please?

106 -- you're full of it. no way you make as much as senior associates. if that were true, EVERYONE would start their own shop! what makes you so special?

UMKC Law alumni here who practices out of state instead of god-awful MO or KS.

1.) To the comment that these girls didn't do well enough to get hired somewhere, probably not true. First of all, not many firms come to UMKC for OCI so it's near impossible to land a BIGLAW job in KC, let alone outside of the KC area. Mid and small law in KC probably aren't hiring due to the economy.

2.) These girls probably didn't try to find a job anywhere in the country. They probably are just limiting themselves to MO. That's probably why they are forced into this. Even the MO Public Defender, the easiest law job to get in MO, is cutting back on hiring.

3.) This could ONLY be done in crap towns like KC because office space is so cheap there. This isn't an alternative in a major city because office space will kill your profits, if you even have any.

I can't imagine these girls getting much business, and if they do, it will be because they undercut the competition so much that people who are relatively poor go to them for traffic tickets or DUI (they call it DWI, whatever) or whatever.

The thing is, they better have a good malpractice insurance policy. Maybe their parents are paying the premiums. Last thing you want to do is screw up, get sued, get your bar license suspended, and then the job market picks up and they can't believe they tried this idiotic move.

UMKC Law alumni here who practices out of state instead of god-awful MO or KS.

1.) To the comment that these girls didn't do well enough to get hired somewhere, probably not true. First of all, not many firms come to UMKC for OCI so it's near impossible to land a BIGLAW job in KC, let alone outside of the KC area. Mid and small law in KC probably aren't hiring due to the economy.

2.) These girls probably didn't try to find a job anywhere in the country. They probably are just limiting themselves to MO. That's probably why they are forced into this. Even the MO Public Defender, the easiest law job to get in MO, is cutting back on hiring.

3.) This could ONLY be done in crap towns like KC because office space is so cheap there. This isn't an alternative in a major city because office space will kill your profits, if you even have any.

I can't imagine these girls getting much business, and if they do, it will be because they undercut the competition so much that people who are relatively poor go to them for traffic tickets or DUI (they call it DWI, whatever) or whatever.

The thing is, they better have a good malpractice insurance policy. Maybe their parents are paying the premiums. Last thing you want to do is screw up, get sued, get your bar license suspended, and then the job market picks up and they can't believe they tried this idiotic move.

106, not every big law attorney has the skill set to do what you did, much less be as successful as you are as a solo. Don't knock on them, please.

109, I agree with you, but have seen the typos on the Web site? There are only a few lines of text, but words such as "variety" and "excellent" were misspelled, misspellings that would definitely have been caught with a spellchecker.

There is absolutely no excuse for that. I wouldn't trust those two girls to do legal work because they obviously lack the ability to pay attention to detail. If they don't pay attention to their facade, their Web site, why would you think they would pay any better attention to their legal work?

Even worse is the fact that they didn't double-check their Web site before the news story was published! I'm sure they had plenty of warning prior to being featured in a newspaper.

Unacceptable. But still, I wish them luck.

106, if what you are saying is true, then hats off to you. That is the way to go solo. But already having client relationships and "many years" of experience is vastly different than having neither clients nor experience. These girls have no idea how to serve clients. Nor do they appear to have any expertise to offer. Sure, they might eventually make some money. But that means taking anything coming in the door, and learning the business side of things on their own dime.

80, I went over to elance.com, legal tab, and found this gem:

"Nevertheless, once I agree to undertake your project, a high quality, well drafted (or thoroughly reviewed) work product is guarenteed."

Nice.

You heard it here first: Buckley & Hutchings rescinded my summer offer

BuckHutch froze 2009 associate salaries - associates will earn what they earned in 2008 (which was zero)

I just noticed that this was posted in "layoffs." Nicely done.

Also, the typos on that website are hilarious.

-13

They changed their web page from "vareity" to "variety." I guess that means they're reading this. Hmmm

These girls should talk to John Quinn about how to start a law firm.

Oh wait, these girls went to UMKC Law and Quinn refuses to acknowledge anyone who went to a law school outside of the top 25, let alone first tier.

To the dumbass with the "great" business idea of using us as proofreaders...

Have you ever heard of spellcheck?

Why is this a story? Does anyone even care? Is Kas getting some threesome action in exchange for the free advertisement?

Who the hell is Kashmir Hill? Is he a laid-off attorney thinking about hanging a shingle? Anyone know?

121: I know others who have done it.

106: If you care to share, what kind of billable rates do solos get for corporate work? And if you care to share further, geographic area and specialization?

Signed,
Curious

121: I'm billing at about half of my biglaw mid/senior associate rate, and 100% of it goes into my account. Do the math. (You *did* take some math in junior high, right?)

124: I'm not knocking all biglaw attorneys; just the ones who think they're 'better' than lawyers working solo or at small firms. I've worked and interacted with many solid attorneys in a few biglaw shops. I did the biglaw thing, and it is not necessarily the 'elite' experience that certain people boast about. In fact, not one attorney I know who has gone in-house or started up a practice would go back to the biglaw grind. Interesting, eh?

126: I agree completely--experience and client contacts help a lot. But people who take this route also tend to be entrepreneurial and creative, developing and using networks and various resources, and being forced to work harder at learning relevant law without the many layers of cushion that big firms provide. I wouldn't disparage them, as several anonymous people here have done. They're actually setting out to practice law without the huge safety net of a big firm. I think that's respectable.

And, having been in the biglaw grind just long enough, I really do sympathize with the legions of associates, of counsel, staff, etc. who are still there and moreso for those who have been shown the door recently. One reason I post here is to remind people that a rewarding legal career is possible outside of biglaw.

HERE IS A REAL EYE-OPENER FOR ALL YOU BIGLAW DUMBASSES:

In other regions such as Europe, big law firms are an abnormality. Most law firms are what we consider small law firms.

I was once a biglaw dumbass too. I, unfortunately, was condescending to my former classmates who worked in smaller law firms. Now, a few of them make more money than me, and I realize I was the dumbass, not them.

134: It's a story because ATL thinks this is somehow a trend, not recognizing how this is limited to KC, UMKC law grads, or other grads of law schools that BIGLAW doesn't come to visit that are in cities where office space is dirt cheap.

Here is the google map of where their office is:

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=851+NW+45th+Street,+kansas+city,+mo&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&split=0&gl=us

As you can see, it is technically in KC, but really in the middle of nowhere. The office space must be really dirt cheap. And they are UMKC law grads. This is not an ATL story since you can't expect anyone to do this in NYC, hell even "Northern NJ" would be prohibitively expensive. KC is not, and outside of downtown? It's practically a steal.

the incessant posting about the typos is ludicrous. Go be a clerk in a federal court and see how many typos you get in court filings - millions. Its definitely sloppy and doesn't reflect very well on the filing attorney, but frankly, (a) 90% of filed papers have some sort of typo, (b) only the clerks notice, and (c) nobody gives a shit. If the gist of your argument is persuasive, your typos mean absolutely nothing.

Look, its definitely better not to have typos and I certainly wouldn't want a typo on my solo practice website. I doubt they're getting to many clients from webvertising though

What 141 fails to realize is:

1. Court filings are not the only documents a lawyer prepares

2. Having a typo on your Web site is like having a typo in a sales brochure or PowerPoint presentation. Not good.

The girls didn't even double-check their Web site prior to the article's publication.

Will they double-check a court filing or contract before sending it out?

142 has a typo

142, good point. I admit that I am wrong.

- 141

You're wrong, 143.

I love how all the socially awkward risk averse entitled biglaw pussies are full of bitter comments. They couldn't start a law firm so they have to hide away in their little cubicles. Hehehe - you guys are funny.

I love how all the socially awkward risk averse entitled biglaw pussies are full of bitter comments. They couldn't start a law firm so they have to hide away in their little cubicles. Hehehe - you guys are funny.

We have offices, not cubicles, 146/147. Have you never visited a REAL law firm?

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHH...

SHOT DOWN, HARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

These two women must be super excited about this post. It will do wonders for getting clients to know that the attorneys could not get hired by firms and started their own firm as a last resort. This website is so snarky.

148 - let me guess you are a risk averse pussy worried that if you come into the real world you will "be a malpractice lawsuit waiting to happen". That is just too funny.

Hey, any publicity is good publicity!

148 - I have visited a law firm
Have you ever been to a court, before or is your brain calibrated to pure document review and searching for missplaced commas. Please answer the question.
thank you in advance.

It is funny to me that BigLaw associates think they are making so much money and that the entire world envies their prestige.

Start a small business and in 5 years make 5x what a BigLaw 5th year makes. The people that are making the real money are our clients OR plaintiffs' attorneys.

Many plaintiffs' attorneys could care less if their motion has a few typos. They make their money in settlement or in front of a jury who could give a shit less about grammar.

Risk takers make the money in this world. Taking a job at a white shoe law firm is not risk taking. Sure, in 10 years there may be 10% of you that will make partner and earn millions. For the rest, you will never be truly rich, but you will be miserable.

I went to a top-50 school, and know at least three people from my class who hung out a shingle right away. I think this definitely is a trend, and given the uncertainties of the job market right now, I'm looking into it in case I get laid off.

Does anyone know: How much is malpractice insurance? And how much is a Lexis subscription? Or can you do it without Lexis, if you practice in only a very narrow field?

151/153, ha ha, you are hilarious.

Yes, I've been to court many times for both regular clients and pro bono clients.

Please don't get defensive...it's really, REALLY showing. But it's hilarious nonetheless.

Ha ha ha.

154 is also hilarious. Most plaintiff's attorneys do not make much money. Only a few get the big cases.

Also, most small businesses fail within the first couple of years.

According to your worldview, everyone should become a plaintiff's attorney or a small business owner.

Fail.

The two most defensive posters on this forum are obviously the two girls. We know that they're reading this blog because they correct the spelling errors on their Web site as we post them.

Great image. Great image.

(not)

Your inability to let the "typo attacks" roll off your shoulders further demonstrates your lack of a business mind.

everyone here just shut up, the best thing to do is ignore someone you don't like

158 - agree with your general point (and disdain for these people), but can we at least refer to them as "women"? They are law school graduates and attorneys - they might be stupid lawyers, but they are no longer girls

Don't knock what these grads are doing. Taking a second job and moving in with parents is the responsible thing to do if your primary job is still in the early stages.

I wouldn't call it heroics, they are doing what they must to avoid wasting their law degrees. But I wouldn't knock them for it.

Best of luck to them and everyone else in their position. There but for the grace ...

I don't have disdain for these women or other people who hang a shingle right after law school.

I'm just commenting on their apparent lack of attention to detail and how they take things a bit too personally.

They need to have thicker skin.

Like I said earlier, I wish them the best. BTW, I didn't mean any disrespect by calling them girls.

157--You have no reading comprehension--that is why you will never make anything of yourself.

You idiot, I didn't say "everyone should become a plaintiff's attorney or a small business owner." I said that BigLaw associates don't make a ton of money in relation to small businesses or plaintiffs' attorneys. Many BigLaw associates are small thinkers--they don't understand that there are easier ways to make a living. Granted, some are in it because they truly enjoy the work.

The implication being that if select arrogant BigLaw associates are as smart as they think that they are, they could make tons more money at the top of their field as a small businessperson or plaintiffs' attorney.

Ending a post with "Fail" only betrays what little self-esteem you have.

40 years ago this country was filled with risk takers. Most attorneys would have laughed at the idea of working for someone else rather than putting their name and that of a law school buddy on the door and hiring a few secretaries. Now, inside and out of the legal market, this country is filled with corporate robots. Big pussies who think that making a lateral move to the massive company across the street is taking a risk.

Another thing...if you're going to seek publicity in the media, you damn well better be able to handle both the positive and negative comments that will follow.

Awesome story. Just like Abe Lincoln. Smaller towns especially offer great opportunities. Pick a narrow area that can feasibly be mastered and get to know the local courthouse. It's not impossible. How inspiring!

164- yeah yeah yeah and Abraham Lincoln taught himself law from borrowed books by candlelight when he was done working the the fields in the winter. Get real, asshole!

Awesome story. Just like Abe Lincoln. Smaller towns especially offer great opportunities. Pick a narrow area that can feasibly be mastered and get to know the local courthouse. It's not impossible. How inspiring!

Ha ha ha, hilarious!

I purposely misstated your viewpoint and ended my post with "Fail" to get a reaction out of you. And I certainly did get a (long) reaction! Ha ha ha!

You're like clockwork. Hilarious!

162, I for one have not been knocking these women (or rather, I have, but it's been incidental to my main point); I've been taking issue with numerous commenters' characterization of what you correctly describe as these women's "responsible" behavior as somehow "taking a chance," "having balls," or "making their own destiny." You are correct: they are backed into a corner as a result of their poor legal education and the current economic crisis and they are doing the responsible thing rather than just working their current paying jobs (as waitresses) and *not* trying to practice law on the side.

The people who bash biglaw the most are the people who wished they were in biglaw, whether now or when they were starting their careers.

This story will probably lead a to small to mid sized KC firm "acquiring" B & H simply because of the press and goodwill they will receive in and around KC.

Of course, in the acquisition, the women will be associates of the acquiror, but at least they'll get paid a salary.

164, really. The AVERAGE BigLaw attorney makes far more money than the AVERAGE small business owner or plaintiff's attorney. I agree with your point about BigLaw being a more risk-averse path, but if your ridiculous generality was true ("BigLaw associates don't make a ton of money in relation to small businesses or plaintiffs' attorneys") then the across-the-board-high-paying jobs of "small business owner" and "plaintiff's attorney" would be the risk-averse gigs. Get it?

-Not 157

THE TITLE OF THIS THREAD SUMS IT ALL UP:

"Can't find work? Start your own firm."

your all a bunch of imature assholes, if you cant find a job then you ned to take matters into you own hands, in this case it means starting your own firm, whats the alternative to starve, really get a life

besides biglaw is a big scam anyway all you do is work and work, bill bill bill all for a mesly salary when you divide by hrs worked, not such a great deal to think yo are so prestegious in your fancy office doing CRAPWORK all day all night, being your own bos is the real way to go, not being a slaveing associate for other biglaw idiot like those on this mesage board

175 and 176 = Buckley and/or Hutchings. Note the amazing spelling specimens ("your" for "you're," "imature," "mesly," "prestegious," "bos," "slaveing," etc.)

If you truly didn't care about biglaw, then you wouldn't be here spewing your disdain for biglaw attorneys.

For example, I truly don't care about being a Navy SEAL. I didn't fail the tryouts and post messages all over the Internet about how being a Navy SEAL sucks and is a big scam.

I think 175/176 is just some idiot making a mockery of the whole situation.

you really need to get a life and stop with the spelchecks, just leave us all lone and go about your day please thank you

180- hahaha, I'm not getting sucked into your hoax. I have actual WORK to do, I'm not going to sit and and pretend that you're one of those idiots, Buckings or Hutchley or whatever, who can't spell and apparently can't get a job or a clue.

Ha ha ha. I have to get back to work, too.

170, I never opined on *why* these grads are backed into a corner. I haven't read the article and I don't know what their grades were. I also don't think it matters much. I've seen too many people of all stripes get laid off in this downturn to think that there is a strong correlation between your pedigree and your chances of survival.
Granted, if you are laid off from biglaw, you can probably do better than someone who never got in to begin with.
--162

hey, these chicks have an ampersand, they MUST be legit!

The word "opine" should not be used in casual conversations.

178 - if you were truely billing time in your billing work reading documents by the thousands you would not be on this board..... some people have a fun time mocking all the nerdy socially awkward types getting laid off and having to face the "real world".

186 = H & B

173

You need to go see a brain surgeon. Those statistics do not adjust for:
1. law school debt
2. IQ/intelligence/skill

We are not dealing with the average business owner but rather the average business owner with the intellectual ability of a lawyer.
The average Biglaw lawyer could arguably make more than in business than the average entreprenuer.

Now get back to your doc review!! LOL

188, the skill sets of lawyers and business owners are not interchangeable. You're comparing apples and oranges.

A friend of mine started out as an immigration solo right after law school, even before passing the bar. Its been 7 years since and his practice has grown to where he employs 4 other people and any big firm would probably hire him if he were willing to relocate his practice. He however would not hear about it - he's never clerked with a firm, never been "recruited" and so on. And is happy as can be.

Another friend from law school did a short gig with the local DA's office and then proceeded to a solo career in criminal law. Believe it or not, DWIs could be very lucrative if you have a steady inflow month after month. Then he moved onto bigger matters. We have referred matters to each other over the years. He currently makes at least 10x of his DA salary and as far as income is probably on par with a majority of the bigfirm partners.

I did a more standard career track - internships with several firms in town, job with a big firm at one of their largest offices, working nights and weekends, "getting good experience", hating it, the whole thing. Then I quit and went in-house with a Fortune 500 company. Obviously, they did not hire me as their GC. I hated it again, albeit for very different reasons such as corporate bureacracy, massive incompetence, people slow as sh't and so on. I went out on my own about a year ago. I broke 300K in actual collections in less than 8 months during what was already shaping up to be a recessionary economy. I should be on track to earn at least as much this year as well. Better yet, I feel like my practice is relatively recession-proof and I am determined to prove it. Hopefully I can collect 500K or more in 2009. We'll see. Then I can legitimately turn back and say: I tell you what, little monkeys, slaving away at your fancy BigFirm offices, you can all bl0w me.

P.S. You probably will when you come knocking on my firm's door for a job. LOL.

190, I'll pass on the opportunity to "bl0w" you.

What type of law do you practice solo? Where did you get your clients from?

189,

the skills are not interchangeable but not mutually exclusive. One can have the talent to be either a biglaw lawyer or an entreprenuer. IF the biglaw lawyer left his risk averse ways and became an entreprenuer he would probably do better than the majority of business owners.

The average person with an IQ of 130 will have better acument than the average person with an IQ 90. We are looking at two different pools of people.

You clearly belong to the latter group....lol

Not true, 192. Go do your homework.

BTW the skill sets are NOT interchangeable.

what's an acument?

LOL...192 is a fat douchebag.

194 - i commend on you at your spell checking talents. I always knew you would be a misplaced comma searcher one day!

196 = unemployed loser.

BTW, spell checking =/= comma searching

68 - wasn't looking for a big firm job initially, was looking for a government job. So I did a government summer program. With shit economy in my state, there are now hiring freezes w/ government, and my summer job shut me out of big law. You're right, I may have played the game wrong, but if I am unemployed after graduation, it won't be because I had bad grades. And I go to a T3.

68 - I wasn't looking for a big firm job initially, I was looking for a government job. So I did a government summer program. With shit economy in my state, there are now hiring freezes and my summer job shut me out of big law (public interest label). You're right, I may have played the game wrong, but if I am unemployed after graduation, it won't be because I have bad grades.

P.S. - ALL my close friends - which includes people that summered with federal judges and the editor of law review, are in the same boat.

Here are some good resources if you want to go down the solo route:

http://www.myshingle.com/

http://www.susancartierliebel.typepad.com/

I find it fascinating that so many of you "lawyers" have formed a profile, no character assault, of these two women and you have as your only form of evidence an article written by someone who met with them probably for about an hour. It is easy to judge anonymously behind the veil of a computer, and it speaks volumes to your own character that you feel you have to judge them in a public forum. Do you do it because you think it is for "their own good" - if so, who is now the parent?

190 - I call BS. You mean to tell me that one person collected 300k in 8 months? How is that numerically possible?

Great advice from the NALP director. I've got a great idea Leipold, how about finding these two ladies a job before bashing their attempt at surviving, asshole.

Could
Any of you
Have the same
Intestinal fortitude to get your
Law
License and then

Lay out your own
Assets and risk
Your
Own
Financial
Future doing the
Same thing
?

54,

Nope. That's why I ask the question.

-39

87 - It's not desperate, it's smart. Now, they have something to put on a resume...

You sound like a typical Obama supporter (Penny the Moocher e.g.) just waiting for someone else to come along and give you your next free lunch.

I wish these gals the best of luck!

@204

Well played

-11

@204

Well played

-11

I guess it may be hard for a lot of Big Law associates to fathom, but most law school graduates don't go to big firms. In fact lawyers from my parents, both 70s law school graduates, find it hard to understand why I would go to work for a big firm, work so hard, and not make nearly the amount of cash they were able to make starting their own practice.

I guess it may be hard for a lot of Big Law associates to fathom, but most law school graduates don't go to big firms. In fact lawyers from my parents, both 70s law school graduates, find it hard to understand why I would go to work for a big firm, work so hard, and not make nearly the amount of cash they were able to make starting their own practice.

I am utterly shocked at how so few law school placement offices make information available on the solo option in this climate. My own law school does not even carry a copy of my book, Solo by Choice: How to Be The Lawyer You Always Wanted to Be in its placement office.

What do these schools think grads are going to do if they can't find jobs? Maybe solo out of law school is not ideal but it is hands down preferable to doing doc review or going into non-legal work. Maybe the unemployed students can take over the placement offices and NALP and bring some real world experience to those positions.

61 - Top 10% grades with no experience doesn't make you an expert on the practice of law and the skills required to competently counsel clients. Most biglaw associates had good grades at top schools but, after a couple years of practice, would readily admit that they were clueless right after graduation.

#155 - I've gotten quotes of about 2K for malpractice insurance right out of school. Don't have details of coverage, but it was 300K/!M coverage.

Lexis and Westlaw run from 200 and up, depending on what you get. There are cheaper alternatives that provide similar coverage. Check with you school's librarians for recommendations.

And take a law office management class if the school offers one. Mine essentially consisted of working up a business plan for a solo practice. Can't beat that as practice for writing a business plan when you actually open a solo practice.

#155 - I've gotten quotes of about 2K for malpractice insurance right out of school. Don't have details of coverage, but it was 300K/!M coverage.

Lexis and Westlaw run from 200 and up, depending on what you get. There are cheaper alternatives that provide similar coverage. Check with you school's librarians for recommendations.

And take a law office management class if the school offers one. Mine essentially consisted of working up a business plan for a solo practice. Can't beat that as practice for writing a business plan when you actually open a solo practice.

This comment FTW, wonder why it is being ignored:

UMKC Law alumni here who practices out of state instead of god-awful MO or KS.

1.) To the comment that these girls didn't do well enough to get hired somewhere, probably not true. First of all, not many firms come to UMKC for OCI so it's near impossible to land a BIGLAW job in KC, let alone outside of the KC area. Mid and small law in KC probably aren't hiring due to the economy.

2.) These girls probably didn't try to find a job anywhere in the country. They probably are just limiting themselves to MO. That's probably why they are forced into this. Even the MO Public Defender, the easiest law job to get in MO, is cutting back on hiring.

3.) This could ONLY be done in crap towns like KC because office space is so cheap there. This isn't an alternative in a major city because office space will kill your profits, if you even have any.

I can't imagine these girls getting much business, and if they do, it will be because they undercut the competition so much that people who are relatively poor go to them for traffic tickets or DUI (they call it DWI, whatever) or whatever.

The thing is, they better have a good malpractice insurance policy. Maybe their parents are paying the premiums. Last thing you want to do is screw up, get sued, get your bar license suspended, and then the job market picks up and they can't believe they tried this idiotic move.

These two are the personification of TTT. Sorry, no sale.

lol @ their stupid expensive logo sign. they are fucked.

I wish them nothing but luck.

71 -- want to trade places with an unemployed person? No? I thought not. Shut the fuck up and do your work.

Ya go to B&H!

I enjoy ATL but the comments are rediculous! The negativity and incoherent foul-mouthed babble is completely unneccessary. I am a T1 (top 20 + law review) law school graduate and have passed bar exams in a couple of states. The market is terrible right now! With one year of experience (no, I was not laid off), I am either over qualified or under qualified for every position I look at. If I were a 1L or 2L right now, I would quit school and try to do something with my undergraduate degree. I'm not ready to hang a shingle, but I have certainly considered it.

The comments about "malpractice lawsuits waiting to happen" are to be expected... that's one you always hear when someone talks about hanging out a shingle after law school. But I've never heard of an actual case where a new solo made a rookie mistake and got sued for it. Has it ever happened? Oh, probably. Still, all of the lawyers I know who've been sued for malpractice (one of them twice) didn't get sued until they had been practicing for 20+ years.

I'm in Kansas City, just down the street, and I plan to invite these girls to lunch. Reading these spiteful comments sure makes me glad I don't live anyplace near the east coast. God, you people are awful.

They'll be all right, and have made a good decision. So maybe they're doing a little of everything, but simple cases most likely. They'll find a focus and start making more money.

It's not as if there are any jobs in KC for associate lawyers that pay well anyway, not even at what passes for "Big Law" here. Hell, if I had it to do over I'd go out to Wichita and hang a shingle to do oil & gas. I'd probably have been able to quit working by now.

Interesting responses to a fairly common story. Some of you are obviously the types who are concerned about how high your office rent can be and compete with suite mates over who can buy the most expensive rug for your office.

I started my own practice out of law school. I didn't even apply for jobs because I didn't really want one. I had trial experience within my first year and won both for my clients, one a defendant and one a plaintiff. I didn't develop many relationships at the country club or the golf course, why would I? I did develop some, and business leaders are smart enough not to hire the big firm that represents their coprorate interests to handle something small in an efficient manner. A big firm lawyer talking about a big case they're working on is like listening to an architect talk about a structure they designed, when you know they just labored over the window frames or something, but hey, they were there I guess. Or when big firm types seem to try to borrow the prestige of their clients, as if they too had the same power, wealth, and status as the giant company they represent simply by affiliation, when really they may as well be mopping the floor.

Its sad that the law has become so one dimensional for so many. Once that dimension is gone, what will there be for them? Ultimately, the law is a service profession.

I no longer have my own practice, but know I can do it if i chose to. It isn't easy.

I love it when a big firm enters a case. They seem to always want to be the first to bring some new legal dimension, file that scary motion thats just a bit too long. I love arguing cases with these folks, they have no idea what they are doing in a court room. I don't know what they spend time doing, big firms are a mystery to me and I don't mind keeping it that way. The look on their faces when things don't go their way shows the ignorance of their position, the entitlement of isolation, a bit of childish indignation and of course the threat of an appeal or a writ. Glad they don't spend my money.