Cooley Law School Develops More Useless Than Normal Law School Rankings
Thomas M. Cooley Law School’s tenth annual Judging the Law Schools rankings are available. (Hat tip: ATL commenters.)
I was not aware that this school list existed. But now that I’ve seen it, I can’t stay the same. The rationale behind this list is rigorous and powerful:
Imagine that college football teams are ranked each year by the quality of the freshman recruits and the pre-season polls of the press and the coaches. Games don’t count, only what people expect, based upon the potential of the high school players and the pre-season assessment of two groups with some involvement in football. Imagine as well that the rankings for the year are determined just once, before the season begins and those players are tested by competition.
Dude, totally. Keep talking, I’ll roll the next one:
That unimaginable scenario is pretty much what happens when law schools are ranked. The quality of the incoming class and the reputation of the schools according to the academics and lawyers control the rankings.
This is just like that time when we were on that thing, and we saw all those little dudes. And they were running man, remember? But where? Where were they going, man? So fast:
Legal education is one of the last places in America where ignorance is used as a basis of judgment (I never heard of it, so how good can it be?) and where subjectivity and bias are actually valued over objectivity and fair-mindedness (this or that school has a good or bad reputation).
I’m totally wigging out.
You will be shocked to learn that Cooley Law School’s “objective” and “fair-minded” list ranks Thomas M. Cooley Law School 12th best, among the 197 ABA-accredited law schools.
See the top 20, plus some notes on Cooley’s methodology, after the jump.
Here are the top 20 law schools in the nation, according to Cooley:
1. Harvard University
2. Georgetown University
3. New York University
4. University of Virginia
5. University of Texas
6. University of Michigan
7. Northwestern University
8. Columbia University
9. Yale Law School
10. George Washington University
11. University of Minnesota
12. Thomas M. Cooley Law School
13. Fordham University
14. University of California-Los Angeles
15. American University
16. University of Pennsylvania
17. University of California-Hastings
18. Stanford University
19. University of Maryland
20. University of California-Berkeley
I’m all for breaking the monolithic power of U.S. News. There’s a lot more to law school than prestige. But a law school ranking that rates Cooley at 12 and Stanford at 18 has zero credibility. I mean, if you’re going to tell me that gravity doesn’t exist in the way we perceive it, you better drop some M-Theory on me instead of a collection of Superman comics.
If you scroll through Cooley’s methodology, you’ll notice that the size of a school’s law library is really important. Nine of their factors involve the school library. This causes one to wonder if the people at Cooley have ever heard of “the internet.”
But, since UT Law ranks fifth on the list, I expect to hear some inspired defense of this list in the comments.
Judging the Law Schools - Overall Rankings 2008 [Thomas M. Cooley Law School]




Comments
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Elie -
The typos are deliberate, right?
UVA has assured me of a bright future devoid of any sort of ungodly pressure on my sphincter.
"methedology" - intentional, as in they must be on meth to publish this claptrap?
UT to number 5!!!!!!! Hook'em Cooley, hook'em!!!!!!!
These may be the dumbest rankings of anything, ever. Basically there are three criteria:
1) Size of school
2) Minority %
3) Size of library
More or less, that's it. I am shocked Stanford even made #18, their library must be ginormous to make up for the small size and few minorities.
Very first methodology factor is LULZ and shows how stupid this is:
"Total J.D. Enrollment - The total enrollment of a law school reflects its success in attracting students, its appeal to those interested in legal education, and its ability to carry out its institutional mission."
WTF? So because Stanford, Chicago, and Yale limit their enrollment to 170-190/yr they are less successful at attracting students at every Tier 4 school with a 500 students/class.
Don't hurt em, Hammer!
"I mean, if you're going to tell me that gravity doesn't exist in the way we perceive it, you better drop some M-Theory on me instead of a collection of Superman comics."
hahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!
nice post mystal. especially the bit about "the internet" THE TUBES!! THEY ARE CLOGGED!!
Elie, even those of us who went to UT recognize the stupidity of Cooley being six spots ahead of Standford. So don't be an ass.
What an embarrassment. And I mean both these rankings and Elie's misspelling of a word he used for hyperlinking. Wow.
I second 5. The stupidity of this ranking "system" is exactly why you should never hire anyone from Cooley.
"Library Seating Capacity - To study, a student needs a place to sit."
I'm sold.
I needed something to make me laugh today. Thanks Cooley!!!
"The rationale for this list riguros and powerful."
W.T.F. Even I know you are trying to fuck with our heads.
- Cooley '09
It's not the size of your school that matters. It's how you use it.
Listtt
Cooley > > GULC
Tis a pity.
Based on the "methedology", was the top ranked school an Elie typo (i.e., should it have been Howard)?
It's not that Cooley is 12 because it's their list so we expect them to be high enough to tout themselves but not high enough to claim 100% bias (i.e., look we didn't rank ourselves #1 because we have room to improve.) However, ranking GW at #10 is just absurd. I'm not sure GW is ahead of Cooley, let alone Stanford.
"Library Seating Capacity - To study, a student needs a place to sit."
I'm sold.
It's not the size of your school that matters. It's how you use it.
Notice how Cooley ranks by matriculation and not enrollment. This is probably due to the fact that 30% of Cooley students drop out because they realize that their Cooley degree can't get them a job at Costco.
"Cool it with the anti-Cooley remarks, McMystal!"
I went to UTLaw as well...There is no defense to this list.
Besides, why would I want to defend a list that puts UTLaw and Cooley so close together?
Atrocious Cooley Trolling.
Try again Elie:
hint - put a space between "is" and "rigourous", and mate, your mum didn't have 'nough quid to fly you back to Heeeefrough!
- oh, you're not British? Than it is RIGOROUS.
UPENN STATE IS RANKED HIGHER THAN PENN STATE IN THEIR RANKINGS? ROFLCOPTORS!
If it's good to attract lots of minorities to your law school on Cooley's rating scale, why did all those (white hetero Christian) Cooley grads go into the Bush Administration and do everything possible not to hire anyone "diverse"?
Stanford here. We have minorities aplenty. And yes, our library huge (though often overcrowded with undergrads).
I wish for the life of me I could figure out what that ungodly pressure is on my sphincter.
This methodology is dumb on several levels. "Number of networked computers available for student use?" Pretty much everyone requires you to show up with a laptop these days, right?
Mormons = TTT
The big surprise here is that American is in the top 100. It's supposed to be objective and fair-minded, right?
19 nailed it. but why didn't People's College of Law break the T14 this year?
UT actually moved down 2 spots from #3 last year. What a festering TTT in decline.
And congrats to Cooley!--moving up 4 spots from #16!!!
I never knew Cooley Godward and Kronish ranked law schools... how neat!
No one has yet to mention GULC at #2, which is laughable.
An interesting list to see would be from recruiters/hiring committees. I'd pay for a copy of that.
"The total enrollment of a law school reflects its success in attracting students. . . ."
So a school is rewarded on this list for admitting everyone who applies, especially those who won't be admitted elsewhere so they HAVE to matriculate at said school?
GULC to t-5!
(But in real rankings.)
I am a student at TCL. While we may not have the best name rec in the country, we are indeed one of the best law schools in the country. Most of our students don't go to big law firms, but that is a good thing. Our students are every bit as smart as anyone at Stanford. Sure my LSAT is a little lower, but my GPA is just as high. Anyone who really thinks that going to Harvard gets you the best education is an idiot. It might get you the best job or clerkship, but that is a different thing. To all those 1Ls out there, consider a transfer. To the 2Ls, come and visit for a semester. And for the 3Ls, sorry you missed the boat, life is a bitch. TCL # 12 and moving up!
Eat it West Coast! Face it, California is nothing but trial lawyer trash, IP geeks, and immigration scam artists.
When you count Total JD enrollment and Total Minority Enrollment, isn't it unnecessary to count "Percentage of Minority Students" unless you're capturing LLM, JSD, etc., students in one of the minority categories? If you're just looking at JD students, (Total Minority Enrollment) / (Total JD enrollment) = (Percentage of Minority Students), right?
WCL to T-20. Clearly they've heard about our giant library ...
Any ranking system that puts three D.C. schools in the top 15 must be doing something right.
HAHA!!
"Total J.D. Enrollment - The total enrollment of a law school reflects its success in attracting students, its appeal to those interested in legal education, and its ability to carry out its institutional mission. While size alone does not assure quality, it does permit a school to offer its students a greater variety of courses, programs, and activities. All other things being equal, a good big school is better than a good small school."
I cant believe anyone would actually pay to go to this school. even if it did provide a good legal education, when a school puts out something like this, you become a laughingstock of the whole legal community.
This rating has so many things going wrong for it, but lets just take the one in which the school says that the size gives it a greater degree of variety. that is a load of crap. i went to a smaller school (which was ranked much lower on coolaids scale than the USNEWS scale) and we have pretty much equivalent offerings. its just that my classes had around 20 students rather than 300 that cooley seems to think is better. stupid.
1) I actually feel bad for out-of-the-loop prospective students and their families who might actually be duped into thinking that cooley is anything comparable to a peer of those other schools on the list. it is actually really irresponsible of cooley to mislead prospectives like that.
2) based on their methodology, they're basically saying "it's must better to rank a football team on the number of helmets that are available for player use!"
I like this list--AU's WCL is ranked #15!
Poor University of Chicago - clocking in at #4 . . . in Chicagoland, behind Northwestern, Loyola, and Chicago-Kent.
Thomas M. Cooley = TTT
Elie corrected "riguros" to a new typo. What a pathetic moron.
WCL finally gets its deserved recognition as a leader in international law. Lets face it, our alums are cooler! We populate plenty of NGOs, USAID and their brethren , State Dept, PMFs in other agencies, human rights, and other public international legal careers including working for the UN. Its time you toffs in your billable hour hellholes recognized!
this list finally settles it.
CLS > YLS
reminder - Cooley flunks over 50% of its first years and it still graduates a class of 500.
That's right, Cooley admits 1000 1Ls every year. if committing stafford loan fraud (by taking $40K from 500 people who will be flunked out with nothing to show for it in 9-months) Cooley should be at the top of the FBI most wanted list, not the law school rankings.
I went to St Barnabus School of Law in Waco, TX. Does that get me anything?
"The law school is currently one of the few accredited law schools in the U.S. that does not require applicants to hold a bachelor's degree as a prerequisite to admission."
That should explain everything.
Nothing like a Cooley post for a good laugh.
GULC to HYS!
reminder - Cooley flunks over 50% of its first years and it still graduates a class of 500.
That's right, Cooley admits 1000 1Ls every year. if committing stafford loan fraud (by taking $40K from 500 people who will be flunked out with nothing to show for it in 9-months) Cooley should be at the top of the FBI most wanted list, not the law school rankings.
Does anybody know where I can get Knowledge, Skills and Ethics all under one roof for a good price?
31: Cooley isn't a mormon school.
BYU (top 50) is.
As a midwesterner that often hears of how ridiculous Cooley is, this is taking it to a whole new level. It's completely unethical to dupe students to go there, charge them $100+ grand then leave them with no possibility of gainful employment sufficient to pay off the debt in under 15 years.
That being said, I'd put even money that a Cooley grad could probably spell "rigorous" properly by the third time. So much for the "rigurous" Harvard J.D., Elie. Seriously, the red line under a word means it is not in the dictionary.
KICK ME IN THE COOLEY!
ive tried to give Elie the benefit of the doubt when it comes to grammatical errors, but this article pushed everything out the window. Elie is such an embarrassment to lawyers, law students, aspiring law students, judges, and even legal secretaries.
This is fantastic news for Cooley! If you look at the 2007 rankings, they were only #16. Now they're #12!
http://www.cooley.edu/rankings/overall2007.htm
COOLEY HAD OVER 2000 FIRST YEAR STUDENTS in 2006/2007!!!!!!!!!
http://cooley.lawschoolnumbers.com/
ABA NEEDS TO SHUT THEM DOWN!!!
The odds of going from 1st year law student at cooley to passing the bar are less than 25%, factoring in the forced attrition rates and horrible pass rate for the 40% who actually make it to graduation.
Oh ABBA ZABBA, you my only friend.
Cooley
#39 - are you serious??? Good luck out there.
How can the people that go there take it seriously? I am without speech. The least the school could do is have some humility. Glad to see they are smart enough to still rank UVA high. UVA is teh bestest school evar!
Cardozo finally cracks the top 40!!!
@39 Wait, what?!?
"While we may not have the best name rec in the country, we are indeed one of the best law schools in the country. Most of our students don't go to big law firms, but that is a good thing. "
Listen, I'm sorry...but I did go to law school with the explicit purpose of graduating with a high paying BigLaw job. I don't give a fuck if i'm miserable, I'm making money and I'll pay off my loans and be less miserable in a couple of years and then take a good job.
This is nothing but self-serving bullshit.
Love the title of this piece.
2000 first year law students? how can that be legal? how can their students possibly qualify for stafford loans, when over 50% are forced out as first years so they can keep the bar pas rate at a whopping 66%.
Remember folks, the bar is a test of MINIMUM COMPETENCY. wtf. this is criminal stuff.
Alright, you laugh now, but consider this line from the "methodology":
"Law school has always been an avenue for social mobility and the integration of minority groups into the mainstream of American civic and commercial life."
See, Cooley isn't just about world-class facilities, students, and faculty. It is also about feel-good revisionist history. This gem alone is worth the price of tuition.
This is a little bit like Georgetown Law creating its own law school ranking, where the sole criterion is proximity to Union Station. Oh look, it turns out we're ranked #1!
Or Michigan Law creating its own ranking where the sole criterion is having students that are DBAGs. T-10 1L? Yep we've got him - looks like we're ranked #1! Who would have thought?
39: "Anyone who really thinks that going to Harvard gets you the best education is an idiot. It might get you the best job or clerkship, but that is a different thing. "
LOL! What's the point of getting a good education if it doesn't get you a good job? Cooley grads = the smartest waitresses you'll ever meet!
Even if HLS or Stanford doesn't provide the best education, they provides better jobs so...they win!
Cooley transfers: thank you for boosting my grades.
As if the US News has a much better system. Perhaps we should start rating law schools based on their profitability. As a President of a major university told me -- a top ten university with a top 12 law school -- told me, "Law schools are our cash cow. The law school admissions office under estimated our acceptance rate a couple of years ago resulting in over enrollment of almost 40 people. We loved it! It was pure profit!"
Ask GW, GULC, or WCL deans and they'll confirm this attitude.
There are some employed Cooley grads where I practice. They make a mean latte, and my shoes have never been so shiny in my life.
C76 - Cooley would WIN on profitability. They accept over 3000 student per year, and over 2000 enroll. they then force out over 50% in the first year by using a forced curve set just above fail, and expelling those who fail, after taking $40K in tuition from them. how do they justify charging 1000 people $40K to sit in a classroom with a few hundred people and then get flunked out and be left with nothing? there must be a HUGE profit margin for Cooley.
If Madoff were a wise man he would have bought Cooley. Talk about a ponzi scheme that works! And this one is profitable!
31 is clearly trying to deflect attention from his cooley alma mater. Nice . . . let's try and throw the mormon's under the bus. BYU's ranking does suck though, and it's library is 40% of the school's square feet.
How can Cooley be an accredited law school when its students don't even need to possess an undergrad degree? Is this 2009 or 1809?
This school should be illegal.
Interesting. IU has the top law library in the country, yet they are ranked 36th. They must have too many white people?
39: "Anyone who really thinks that going to Harvard gets you the best education is an idiot."
Correct me if I am wrong, but isnt Harvard ranked #1 on your list?
I personally like 39's statement: "Anyone who really thinks that going to Harvard gets you the best education is an idiot. It might get you the best job or clerkship, but that is a different thing. "
Huh?
Getting the best possible job is the point of going to law school. What's the point of a good legal education if the best you can do when you're done is a job as a waitress at T.G.I.Friday's?
Unless you turned down offers from Stanford, HLS and Virginia to go to Cooley, it's probably best if you just STFD.
39: "Anyone who really thinks that going to Harvard gets you the best education is an idiot."
Correct me if I am wrong, but isnt Harvard ranked #1 on your list?
I have an idea for ranking fast food chains.
The factors considered will be as follows:
Number of restaurants.
Number of restrooms.
Number of hamburgers served.
Number of hamburger buns used.
Total square footage of dining space.
Total seating capacity.
Number of chairs.
39: "Anyone who really thinks that going to Harvard gets you the best education is an idiot."
Correct me if I am wrong, but isnt Harvard ranked #1 on your list?
Using the football analogy, I guess the importance of the library relates to the size of the playbook or practice facilities, which can help a team but does not demonstrate a winning record.
39- You might have a good GPA but is is because you are surrounded by total and utter morons. Being the smartest kid with Down syndrome is nothing to be proud of.
39: "Anyone who really thinks that going to Harvard gets you the best education is an idiot."
Correct me if I am wrong, but isnt Harvard ranked #1 on your list?
39: "Anyone who really thinks that going to Harvard gets you the best education is an idiot."
Correct me if I am wrong, but isnt Harvard ranked #1 on your list?
Using the football analogy, I guess the importance of the library relates to the size of the playbook or practice facilities, which can help a team but does not demonstrate a winning record.
Here is the hard data:
http://officialguide.lsac.org/SearchResults/SchoolPage_PDFs/ABA_LawSchoolData/ABA1796.pdf
Some highlights:
-A full 34.1% of students are either a) unemployed or b) have no clue what they're going to do 9 months after graduation
-First year matriculation is 1,580 (prior year's class was 1,810)
-First year attrition, academic and otherwise, is 26.1%
-Transfers out substantially overshadow transfers in (sorry Cooley grad, doesn't look like people are flocking TO Cooley, other way around...) 188 to 6
I think this thread just made me gay.
This list is reminiscent of the list in South Park's Season 11 finale (although Token was a few places higher in that list).
I need to see pictures of this legendary Cooley library.
Wow, according to Cooley's rankings, the school has 3664 students. I didn't realize there were that many stupid law students.
39- You might have a good GPA but is is because you are surrounded by total and utter morons. Being the smartest kid with Down syndrome is nothing to be proud of.
39- You might have a good GPA but is is because you are surrounded by total and utter morons. Being the smartest kid with Down syndrome is nothing to be proud of.
Is there anything the ABA won't accredit?
39: "Anyone who really thinks that going to Harvard gets you the best education is an idiot."
Correct me if I am wrong, but isnt Harvard ranked #1 on your list?
25 = grammar nazi fail
96 - Ask and ye shall receive: http://www.cooley.edu/library/tour/Welcome.htm .
The last time I saw group study rooms like theirs was on "The First 48": http://www.cooley.edu/library/tour/2GroupStudyRooms.htm .
Remember ladies:
"size alone does not assure quality"
105: They failed the pulse test. TCLS added it last year to ensure a competitive 1L environment.
Well played #87
Anyone who critiqued 39's post is an idiot.
Isn't that how college footbally champions ARE determined? Based primarily on preseason expectations and the opinions of two groups that have "some involvement" with football?
Else how did Florida become the so-called national champion?
I call flame on 39.
This list is one of the saddest, most depressing, and yet most hysterical things I have ever seen. But I guess I'm just bitter because I'm a 3L and University of Chicago, and I won't have time to transfer to Cooley before starting work at a V25 in sunny California.
Some Facts about the #12 ranked law school via the TCL website:
* 3,723 students enrolled
* 28% are members of minority groups
* Average LSAT score 147
* Average undergraduate GPA 2.9
* 85% enrolled part-time
I think this is Michigan's Special Education Law Program
# Average LSAT score 147
# Average undergraduate GPA 2.9
You can't make this up: the Cooley Library reading room is called the "Strosaucker Room." I don't know what that is, but it has to be a sexual act of some kind.
Guest wrote:"'Library Seating Capacity - To study, a student needs a place to sit.'
I'm sold. "
Best part about this stat is that per capita, they have relatively few seats (946 for 3600 students). URichmond, for comparison, has 640 seats for 487 students, but Richmond would be lower ranked on capacity because they have fewer seats.
108 = Utah fan
STOP MAKING FUN OF MY SCHOOL YOU IDIOTS!
Hey, Halberstam!
Everyone knows that the LSAT and your U-GPA are not solid predictive indicators of your success in law school.
I find this list to be no less compelling than the tripe that comes out of US News.
-UVA Grad
113, WHY DON'T YOU COME TO OUR LIBRARY? I'LL SHOW YOU WHATS UP.
"Should you choose a school based on what others think regardless of the facts?"
Only if you want a job...
I find this list to be no less compelling than the tripe that comes out of US News.
-UVA Grad
115: I don't buy that you're a Cooley student/grad. There's no way that you would be looking at ATL.
SUFFOLK TO 35!!!!!!!!!!!
RBG has pancreatic cancer and no post?
122, 115 AND 119 HERE. YES WE COOLEY GRADS ACTUALLY USE THE INTERNET. JUST BECAUSE U.S. "NEWS" RANKS US LOW DOESN'T MEAN WE DON'T USE THE INTERNET. I'LL BET THAT IF INTERNET USAGE WERE A FACTOR IN THE RANKINGS COOLEY WOULD BE #1 AND NOT #12. IN FACT, WHY DON'T YOU COME TO GRAND RAPIDS AND I'LL GIVE YOU A "PERSONAL" VIEW OF HOW I USE MY COMPUTER.
122, 115 AND 119 HERE. YES WE COOLEY GRADS ACTUALLY USE THE INTERNET. JUST BECAUSE U.S. "NEWS" RANKS US LOW DOESN'T MEAN WE DON'T USE THE INTERNET. I'LL BET THAT IF INTERNET USAGE WERE A FACTOR IN THE RANKINGS COOLEY WOULD BE #1 AND NOT #12. IN FACT, WHY DON'T YOU COME TO GRAND RAPIDS AND I'LL GIVE YOU A "PERSONAL" VIEW OF HOW I USE MY COMPUTER.
Washington & Lee, bitches~!
122, 115 AND 119 HERE. YES WE COOLEY GRADS ACTUALLY USE THE INTERNET. JUST BECAUSE U.S. "NEWS" RANKS US LOW DOESN'T MEAN WE DON'T USE THE INTERNET. I'LL BET THAT IF INTERNET USAGE WERE A FACTOR IN THE RANKINGS COOLEY WOULD BE #1 AND NOT #12. IN FACT, WHY DON'T YOU COME TO GRAND RAPIDS AND I'LL GIVE YOU A "PERSONAL" VIEW OF HOW I USE MY COMPUTER.
Amazing. There were actually applicants on the Cooley lawschoolnumbers board that got waitlisted. How?
ok, the bit about Superman was genuinely funny. First time I've ever laughed at a MysTTTal joke.
Famous grads include Leroy "Preach" Jackson and Richard "Cochise" Morris .
26 is a joke
26 is a joke of a human being. Not funy, TTT
26 is a joke of a human being. Not funny, TTT
26 is a joke of a human being. Not funny, TTT
MCGEORGE DOMINATES
MCGEORGE DOMINATES
I actually feel bad for Cooley law students/graduates. It must be tough enough to come from a lowly ranked law school without having to come from one that has ludicrous (and public!) delusions of grandeur.
This list offers nothing constructive. It only has the unfortunate effect of opening Cooley students to added scorn and ridicule.
As someone who has ragged Elie in the past, I truly enjoyed the Superman joke. Well played, sir.
Cooley Grad - that key next to your pinkie and next to the A...concentrate and press it. Also, I will take the paper bags. Thank you
seriously question: how bad is New York Law School (not NYU), and is it worth me applying there this cycle?
Cooley is hilarious. They offer everyone a scholarship (or almost everyone), but make the scholarship renewal contingent on maintaining a solid GPA. Their curve, however, is below the GPA needed to sustain the scholarship and so these folks lose their scholarship and their grades are too low to transfer out. It is classic bait and switch! Brilliant for them, sucky for the students who fall for it.
These schools are not fair to their students. The people who are admitted think (naively), "I've been admitted to law school, so I'm going to be a lawyer!" They then borrow tons of money, and at the end of three years, they cannot pass the bar, and even if they can, the jobs they can get allow them to just barely make their loan payments.
The truth is that much of this sorting out of ability should be done BEFORE admission to a law school, BEFORE loans are taken out. If these schools weren't so intent on getting every Joe and Jane's borrowred tuition money, they may be more honest with applicants, and tell them that their records indicate that they probably won't be able to pass the bar.
Schools should not induce potential students to commit 3 years and $150K to something where they don't have much of a chance to begin with. They should put out disclaimers.
I AM GETTING A GOOD EDUCATION AT COOLEY AND ANYONE WHO THINKS OTHERWISE - THAT'S JUST YOUR OPINION. USNWR IS JUST SOMEONE ELSE'S OPINION.
I work at a V10 and there are a couple of NYLS grads in every summer class. There are also a few partners here from NYLS. Make sure you are at the top of your class and only want to work in NYC where the alumni network exists though.
145-
TTT = Third Tier Toilet
The Thomas M. Cooley Law School: Probably Better than Nova Southeastern.
I'm pretty sure Cooley only exists to make 2nd-tier grads such as myself feel better about ourselves.
Now if you'll excuse me, I have to get back to looking for a job.
LET'S HAVE A CONTEST. WE'LL PICK 1 COOLEY STUDENT AT RANDOM AND 1 UPENN ST STUDENT AT RANDOM FOR A CAGE MATCH. I GUARANTEE YOU THEN WE'LL SEE WHY COOLEY IS #12 AND UPENN ST IS #16.
I Second 150. What does TTT mean?
@145/147
http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=TTT
The Thomas M. Cooley Law School: Probably Better than Nova Southeastern.
I IZ A COOLEY STUDANT. I IZ A SMRT HAHDWOOKING PROFEZZIONALLE. HAHVAHD MAKES ME FEEL BAD BOUT MESELF. I IZ AKTUALLEY SMARTT. I MAKEZ MA OWN RANKINGGS. HAHAHA LUK AT ME I IZ AWESSOME! C? I KNEW DAT MA FIF GRAAD TEACHER LADY WAS WRRONGG FO HOLDIN MES BACK!
TTT= 'third tier toilet'...It is a lame way to say something sucks that was predominantly used by idiots who post on law school admission forums and has spilled over to ATL. It is completely TTT to say TTT.
@145: it's that "making sure you are at the top of your class" part that is far from certain. 141 should exhaust his/her efforts on the LSAT and try for the safe route.
These ranks are pretty accurate. It shows how overrated Yale and Stanford are.
MysTTTal, can you get basic facts right in a single post?
There are 200 ABA accredited law school.
kids from my high school went to nova southeastern all the time, it was no big deal.
My crim law professor claimed to have purchased a yacht with the money he made doing bar appeals for Cooley students
MysTTTal, can you get basic facts right in a single post?
There are 200 ABA accredited law school.
I am number one in my own mind, and that's reason enough to pop champagne. After all, I did win the championship game.
-Pop Bottles
39 was a great flame
Indiana's website has a pretty fun tool that lets you reweight the US News factors.
http://monoborg.law.indiana.edu/LawRank/
With the exception of Cooley's inclusion in the top 20, these rankings aren't bad.
What's with the random UT bashing? Not all of us benefit from affirmative action, Elie.
149 -- Sure Cooley would win a Cage match. That's all you guys know to do at the end of three years, cage fighting. Let's see if we put the same two students in court at the end of law school -- you'll be praying your mama to save you frm the judge and your opponent. Get your fact straights, that's one of the basic rules of law school. Seems you failed. On all levels.
#143
Amen.
BUT, it's worse than that. Even schools just outside the T-14 are manipulating their graduates' earnings data to make it look like there's actually salaries of 90-100k out there for the median. This is pure statistical manipulation. Oh, sure, there'll be some jobs like that, but the curve has two bulges, one much higher than that (which fools everyone into attending, because surely THEY will make the top 25%), and one at like the 30-50k range, which is itself much larger. S-C-A-R-Y. go be an Engineer.
COOLEY TO T3!!!! DA REALZ HOLY TRINITY IS HYC BAYBAY!! STANFORD AND DEMZ IZ OVRRATED!!! WHA WHA!!!! BEFO' YOUZ LAFF AT ME FO SAYIN DIS, MAH SPELLIN IZ STILLS BETTA THAN ELIE'S!!!
COOLEY 2011 FO LIFE
What does TTT mean? I keep seeing it used in comments and cannot figure it out. Anyone?
168 -- see 154.
UTLaw grad here. This list is crap. No need to defend it. UT could be top 10 if the Deans could figure out how to raise some money. Until the we'll keep fighting with the other jokers scrambling to get above 15.
"Imagine that college football teams are ranked each year by the quality of the freshman recruits and the pre-season polls of the press and the coaches. Games don't count, only what people expect, based upon the potential of the high school players and the pre-season assessment of two groups with some involvement in football."
Well, that's exactly how college football is ranked in the preseason. Unfortunately, law schools don't have a series of head-to-head match-ups throughout the year to determine the BCS champion. Pretty sure library stats aren't that magical metric to fill out that analogy.
149- Penn participates every year in Philly fight night, so we have a significant amount of kids who can fight. I would guess you'd be knocked out as soon as you said UPenn st. Boosh.
Cooley-bashing thread count to 200!
It is absolute fraud to approve a Cooley student for a loan.
172 ARE YOU KIDDING ME? "FIGHT NIGHT"? LOL BOY. I GUESS YOU'VE NEVER BEEN TO GRAND RAPIDS. HERE WE FIGHT EVERY DAY. FOR REAL TOO, NOT LIKE YOUR LITTLE RICH BOY PANSY "FIGHT NIGHT". COME TO MICHIGAN BOY I'LL SHOW KNOCKED OUT.
172 ARE YOU KIDDING ME? "FIGHT NIGHT"? LOL BOY. I GUESS YOU'VE NEVER BEEN TO GRAND RAPIDS. HERE WE FIGHT EVERY DAY. FOR REAL TOO, NOT LIKE YOUR LITTLE RICH BOY PANSY "FIGHT NIGHT". COME TO MICHIGAN BOY I'LL SHOW YOU KNOCKED OUT.
Cooley should not even be accredited. What a joke. They will let any idiot in the door that can find the money.
Part of Cooley's attrition rate is due to the 1Ls who, upon entering the library for the first time, get lost and are never heard from again. These students are usually billed a full year's tuition, because of the presumed continuing use of a law school facility, and the possibility, albeit remote, that they will reemerge with a basic understanding of the law (whether acquired by passive diffusion or otherwise).
Doing my part to help 173.
Still doing my part to help 173.
175/6- it is precisely that attitude that caused you to wind up at Cooley.
181
DONT BE BASHIN DA COOLEY HOMES IT IS OUR WAY OUT OF DA GHETTO DAT IS DETROITT WHAAA! WHEN I IZ DUN WIF COOLEY I IZ GUNNA GETZ ALL MA BITCH ASS BABY MAMAS OFF MA BAK ABOUT CHILD SPPRT AND MA DAWGS OFF A DEF ROW!!!! AND IZ DOWN WIF DA OTHA COOLEY POSTAH AND WILL STRAIGHT RIDE ON U!!!!
COOLEY 2011 FO LIFE
DEY WAZ GUNNA BUILD A COMMUNITY CENTA FOR DA GANGS IN GRAND RAPIDZ BUT DEN DEY DECIDED TO BLD A LAW SKOOL SO WE WOULD HAF SUMTHIN TO DO AND ALSO SO WEZ WULD HELP ALL DA OTHA BROTHAS OUT AND DEN DEY WULDNT HAF TO PAY FO DAT LEGAL AID BIZNASS!!!!! WORD!!!!!!!!
COOLEY 2011 FO LIFE
RIDE OR DIE!
FO SHIZZLE 182 I GOTS YO BACK COOLEY 2011 IZ WHERE DA BOSSES IZ AT !!!!!!!!!!!!!
This entire time I heard Cooley but was thinking Cardozo...
All TTT's sound the same. Also, isn't cooley in East Lansing...not grand rapids...
178 -
F'ing hilarious.
Mormons = employable. Cooley grads = burden on the state.
I
“U.S. News uses a system that lacks objectivity because it is commercial. Their rankings reflect elitist values, like exclusivity in admissions and the inherent prejudice that comes from heavy reliance on reputation, which is introduced without consideration of knowledge about the law schools among those assessing their reputations.”
-TCLS President Don LeDuc
LeDuc, by the way, has an honorary law degree from (you guessed it) Thomas Cooley Law School.
Bwhahahahahahaha. That is the most retarded thing I have ever seen. Cooley is a HORRIBLE school!!!
Hey guys - the international law school rankings just came out:
1) U Darfur Law
2) Gaza Hebrew Law
3) Belfast Catholic
4) Cooley
5) U Texas
To complete Cooley's ridiculous football analogy, this ranking system is akin to a football ranking (released by a college football program) that is based upon hilariously irrelevant factors such as: number of seats in the stadium, number of lockers in the locker room, total locker room square footage, quantity of gatorade, number of part-time coaches, number of full-time coaches, etc.
This has to be, by far, the dumbest administration in academia.
To make it clear how seriously, this Top 20 should be taken, look at their rankings for California (and compare with the Top 20 above - and note that Cooley lists themselves in every state)
1) Cooley (they rank themselves in every state)
2) UC Hastings
3) Loyola Law School (I assume they mean Loyola Marymount)
4) UCLA
5) Stanford
California isn't the only state where that happens, Cooley managed to do that with other states, as well. Minnesota ranks above Cooley in their overall list, yet is second in the state of Minnesota comparison. For D.C., they list GWU above them in their overall, but claim they are second in the DC list. Same thing with Yale - ranks above them overall, below them just in Connecticut.
The state rankings also make it pretty clear how bad Cooley really is compared to most every law school when you look at their numbers next to the other schools in the state.
Makes one wonder how anyone can possibly consider them competent enough to run a law school since they are not even competent enough to make an internally consistent rankings system.
Brooklyn ranked higher than Cardozo? Damn, these rankings are bogus.
-- Dean Rudinstine
181 IT WAS NOT MY ATTITUDE THAT CAUSED ME TO END UP AT COOLEY. IT WAS MY HARD WORK AND DEDICATION TO MY GOAL OF ATTENDING LAW SCHOOL. DON'T BE HATIN BECAUSE YOU WEREN'T DEDICATED ENOUGH TO ATTEND #12. NOW IF YOU TRULY ARE INTERESTED IN MY ATTITUDE I INVITE YOU TO GRAND RAPIDS FOR A PERSONAL SHOW.
I hear Cooley has a great football team.
Is Cooley's law library housed inside of a football stadium?
Is Cooley's law library housed inside of a football stadium?
I went to Texas Law and grew up 3 miles from Cooley Law School, so interesting perspective here.
Cooley's rankings are absolutely worthless, and so frankly is the school. I believe that it nearly lost it's accreditation a number of times. Also, whoever that idiot was who said she got just as good of an education as at Harvard (I'm too lazy to go up and find out what number she was), needs to be put in check. 1,000 students in your 1L class and you claim to be getting an education comparable to Harvard? Also, heads up, your GPA very well might be the same as mine was, but look who you are competing against. (1/2 of your 1L class fails out!) Also, I bet you actually study, so factor that into your GPA comparison..
I go to Cooley and felt I'd offer my perspective.
Cooley's rankings are a disgrace. I find the school's administration to be borderline retarded. I've spoken out before on other forums, but their blatant cash grab business structure does a disservice to the reputation of the school. As a top 3 student in my class, I see the world class facilities, tremendous library, practical instruction, and top notch support services offset by the fact that I have to attend class with at least 30% of students who have no business being in law school. There is no true "middle tier" student, IMO. My experiences are that the weekend/evening student population and maybe 5% of the weekday population is comprised of exceptional students. We're lured to Cooley by the free education (at $30K a year, that means something) and flexibility in scheduling (while schools like UM wouldn't allow me to work full-time and attend class.) Folks like me balanced the free education and ability to keep my good job (I go to school with a couple of doctors, a neurophysicist, some MBAs, etc.) and decided it outweighed a significant lifestyle change to attend a top tier law school. The placement offices do a hell of a job working for us, and the professors network with you to find jobs with their contacts.
The lower tier student got into Cooley and is there trying to transfer or to just graduate with a JD. They're either going to fail or pass, struggle to pass the bar, and then find themselves in financial woes trying to pay back north of $100K in loans. Cooley has no problem placing them on academic probation, prolonging their stay in law school for 2 more expensive semesters for thousands of dollars more, and then dismissing them. They make a killing with this cash grab method. In order to perpetuate this, the grading scale has to be slightly tougher. I booked a class this past term with about 75 students, and was one of three A's. Only 12% of my class currently has over a 3.0. There's absolutely no incentive for a middle-tier student to select Cooley over a higher ranked 2nd or 3rd tier school like MSU. They'll compete academically in that mid-section of the curve and graduate with a 3.0 from a school with a better reputation.
Personally, I like Cooley. I feel like the education I get there is top-notch, but at times it annoys me having to be in the same class as people who really shouldn't be there. With only 3 semesters left after this, most of them are weeded out. But I do feel as though the reputation of the school doesn't do me any favors. Luckily, the connections I've made professionally and the professors I've spoken to give me options should I choose to change careers after graduating from law school. Prestige definitely matters, but I think at the end of the day, these things help, too. I'm not looking to work 80 hours per week for a big firm, so there's that. If I were younger, and wasn't married with a good job, a house, and a lifestyle I'd like to maintain, I probably would've gone to a top 20 school. It's just a shame to me that Cooley values money over the reputation of the school. Publishing these ridiculous rankings only perpetuates that.
cooley students do perform better than other law students at benefiting the legal profession.
they flunk out in masses, create bankruptcy / delinquent child support / criminal / etc. work for us, and stay clear of social networks because they cannot afford to move out of mom's basement. they're great clients when it comes time to top off our annual pro bono hours.
Good post @200 - I was a top 3 grad from a 4th tier school in Southern California, and I recognize that the worthless student / money grab aspect is probably representative for this type of school. I did meet some interesting and quite accomplished people taking part-time classes who, because they are working full time while maintaining good grades, are getting a free legal education. I managed to graduate entirely debt free, with three V50 offers (but that had more to do with the PhD than the law school I believe)...
Good luck to you, and ignore the elitist haters on this board!
As someone who transfered from Cooley, you have no idea how good it feels to get the hell out of there.
GULC clearly tried to game these rankings by adding a second library.
Fun fact: 75% of panhandlers on University of Michigan's campus are Cooley grads.
(The other 25% are from Ave Maria.)
39 is the most hilarious post of 2009.
I know someone who wrote his capstone paper on why Cooley should lose its ABA accreditation. His basic argument was that Cooley was unethical in its very existence and any licensed lawyer teaching there is violating the cannons of ethics.
Cooley does what all law schools SHOULD do. It makes a list of LAZY law students and tells them to hit the road, while letting the hard-working cream of the crop remain. Graduation rates don't matter if you're not one of the lazies. LOL LAZIES !!!!!!!!
205--I am certainly not an Ave Marie grad, but I will stick up for them. They turn out quite a few COA clerks--I clerked with one of them. I was impressed. They have very smart people top of the class at Ave. Anyway, I surely would not put Ave in the same boat as Cooley.
Plus, didn't Ave move to Florida or something?
mystal is just upset because he would have gone to cooley but for the 'favorable' admission standards at harvard
I'm not sure why this bothers you so much. All law school rankings that claim a particular school is #1, #5, or even #30 are arbitrary. Law schools can objectively be ranked by tiers but US News' rankings are as arbitrary as the Cooley list.
I enrolled at Harvard before even visiting the campus. Once I got to their library I was a little disappointed - when I visited my friend at Cooley and saw their library, I was CRUSHED.
Cooley offered me free tuition. I thought to myself, wtf? what shithole wants me to go there so badly (great LSATs, mediocre GPA - so i liked to party?) that they would offer it free. I saw its ranking and said no thank you, and went with a top tier school
130K later, still no job cause my TTT summer firm is tanking an no-offered me, and I am thinkng a free JD may have been a good idea to make me competitive when I applied to a non-legal job. Because honestly, lawyers are fucking miserable people.
Yale #9
Cooley #12
Stanford - doesn't make the top twenty
Res ipsa
This is the stupidest rating system yet
Oh, yeah - where does Cooley place on percentage of people passing the bar?
The saddest part of all this is that Cooley students ranked first or second in their class (complete with Law Review) can't get an interview at most of the 'big-box' law firms in Michigan. That school is probably the biggest waste of tuition money in the state.
maybe if ut kicked out all the texans added to the class to meet the state resident quota, they would actually move up in the rankings
215 - No, maybe if UT would drop its unbelievable affirmative action policies (hidden... Hopwell right?) it would move up in the rankings. That and start sending under the table payments to rankers out of the Northeast who, in the absence of said payments, won't even give a good southern school a second look. It's a shame, too. I turned UT down because I was accepted into a higher-ranked East Coast school. It sure would have been nice if UT had been comparably ranked; I would have gone in a heart beat.
"I'm totally wigging out."
Hey, at least they make my school (UMN) look good!
I taught poli sci at Michigan State for a couple of years, and it's amazing how brain-locked most of those law-school-bound students are about going to Cooley. I had one undergrad, brilliant, 176 LSAT, excellent writer, funny, hard worker--and when he talked to me about law school and I asked where he was applying, he said "Cooley."
That was it. Like it was the only law school in the world. And despite my best efforts, that's where he went.
213: I've been out of school a while and haven't taken math or statistics for a few years, but . . . #18 is still in the top twenty, right?
They forgot such important factors as:
1. Capacity of parking lot
2. Proximity of Starbucks
3. Square footage of bookstore
AN INSIDE LOOK AT THE COOLEY PONZI SCHEME!!!
Cooley is the anti-christ of law schools! First, they decide who is going to be a dean or whatever of that school based on the amount money that person donates to Cooley. If you look at their bios they were all only attorneys for a couple of years. This is because they each made some sort of major mistake while practicing. Therefore they had no choice but to leave the practice of law and go work at Cooley. This is true for a few of the professors as well!
Second, they COMMIT SERIOUS FRAUD that needs to be reported! Do you know why Cooley has the highest minority enrollment? Do you know why they let everyone in? Well, because they get extra money from the federal government for both of course!!!! They are a private institution therefore off rip they do not receive federal funds.... However, the federal government DOES give them money for each minority student and each student with a disability.
So, they herd in minority and students with below average LSAT scores. Once they are in the school they try to convince both groups to get tested for a learning disability from 'their doctors!' Ironically, these are psychiatrist on a list handed out by the school, these are the only 'psychiatrist' they will accept a learning disability diagnosis from, and they only accept cash......$900 - $2000. The doctors then give the student a note and the school a referral fee. The student brings the note to the school and is given extra time while the school gets extra money!
For every student that does not play this game the school flunks them out........This is why the attrition rate is so high and this is the blatant ponzi scheme they have been getting away with for years!
So, please do not make the mistake of thinking that this school genuinely likes minorities....they don't! They are actually pretty racist! However what they do like about minorities is they get money for them.....
They need to be seriously investigated.
If you been dismissed from Cooley please visit www.dismissedfromcooley.com
A good friend of mine is a Cooley grad. I have to say she really knows her stuff. Unfortunately the career services office at Cooley is useless. They changed her resume multiple times and obviously had no idea how to format a resume. They reposted job listings they found on Monster and never made any effort to bring employers on campus. I would think having a good career services office should be more important than having a big library, no?
Uh, I work wth Cornell law school (tagentially) although I did not go there, I am a lawyer. Cooley's argument is that the USNW rankings are based too much on theory. HELLO?! Cornell ranked by Cooley at 45 or so? Well in 2008 Cornell had 99% first time bar passage rate in NY state (Best of all 15 NY state law schools). These Cooley rankings make no sense.
Uh, I work wth Cornell law school (tagentially) although I did not go there, I am a lawyer. Cooley's argument is that the USNW rankings are based too much on theory. HELLO?! Cornell ranked by Cooley at 45 or so? Well in 2008 Cornell had 99% first time bar passage rate in NY state (Best of all 15 NY state law schools). These Cooley rankings make no sense.
Haha, I saw this rating system, and it is almost completely based on the size of the law library! Rediculous.
Haha, I saw this rating system, and it is almost completely based on the size of the law library! Rediculous.
Cooley is one of the worst law schools in the nation.
The only positive aspect of the school (for law grads who went to other area schools) is that the entire legal community knows what a joke of a school it is. Cooley grads flood the legal market in Michigan, thus enhancing any non-Cooley grad's prospects. Firms can always say, "Hey, at least we didn't have to hire someone from Cooley."
Even graduating #1 from Cooley will open fewer doors than simply graduating from any other regional lawschool, regardless of class rank.
Even people who went there talk about the school with a bit of shame in their eyes.
I always tell me friends to try and find out where their lawyer went to school. If the person went to Cooley, run away!
Cooley is one of the worst law schools in the nation.
The only positive aspect of the school (for law grads who went to other area schools) is that the entire legal community knows what a joke of a school it is. Cooley grads flood the legal market in Michigan, thus enhancing any non-Cooley grad's prospects. Firms can always say, "Hey, at least we didn't have to hire someone from Cooley."
Even graduating #1 from Cooley will open fewer doors than simply graduating from any other regional lawschool, regardless of class rank.
Even people who went there talk about the school with a bit of shame in their eyes.
I always tell me friends to try and find out where their lawyer went to school. If the person went to Cooley, run away!
Shut it down. This is proof that the ABA is worthless.
The irony is that the poor souls who are harmed the most are also completely at a loss for how to get back at the school...like, say, with legal action.
I'm a bit disturbed by the anti-Florida bias of this comments section.
@147--While Nova Southeastern University is by no means a quality university, Nova doesn't pretend to higher aspirations. If nothing else, they have never released their own version of academic rankings. And, they're conveniently located near two bowling alleys, I-95, and a reasonably clean Subway franchise.
@108--UF is the national champion because they won the BCS championship game. The path to the game may have been fraught with politics, votes, and Texas scandal, but then, so was the 2004 Presidential Election. At the end of the day, UF still had to prove themselves. Which is far more than anyone can say for Cooley.
--CLS 3L
If you're surprised (as I am) by Stanford being ranked 18th, then you'll be shocked (as I was) to see Chicago ranked 31st. Even Chicago-Kent did better than that!
Another howler is Cornell at #45.
Btw, I'm not trying to denigrate Chicago-Kent. It's a very good school. It's just not in the same league as Chicago.