Ha! Aint nobody saying "FIRST" this time. Suckaz.

First

this is a great deal for incomming first years- basically get paid 65k to go do whatever you want for a year and then have a job waiting when you come back

S&C next week.

Dear Associates,

HAPPY FIRING DAY!

Today is the day you realize that you will be poor. Very poor. You will never be able to pay off your massive law school debts. Your family and friends will pity you, others will laugh at you. You will never enjoy the career or success you dreamed of in law school.

But you can overcome this setback. There are still jobs to be had in retail. There is no shame in stocking shelves for a living.

For the men among you, this means that you will probably have a hard time finding a wife or girlfriend. For the women, you can still latch on to a man with a job. But be prepared to spend a lot of time on your back, as this is the only way you can "add value" now.

Sincerely,

The Partners who did this to you.

4 -- your job might be waiting for you, but wouldn't you then have a big target on your back if the firm is going to do more layoffs?

Yea, take their 65k and see how quickly you are welcome back with open arms. Might as well be a severance for first years.

I'd hate to be a summer associate at Latham this year. If a lot of incoming associates take the stipend and delay their start date until October 2010, I imagine Latham will be no-offering much of this year's summer class .

I'd already be on a plane to Tuscany where I'd sit around all day, drink great cheap wine, and live an italian life....until October 2010!

Hey incoming Latham associates -

For the love of God, take the deferral program. Stay in your apartment for one more year and get some good experience. Take it from a former Latham associate who started there during the last slow period - you won't get much work during the first year anyway unless a big doc review falls into your lap. Better to delay a year so you don't get a sub-pace year on your record and have your career growth stunted. By the time you get back, hopefully the economy will be better and some of the bitterness from the layoffs subsided. This is a good deal.

Sounds like the Obama plan is making its way to law firms. Pay people not to work. I'm sure it will encourage those that remain to work even harder...or not.

I welcome this change b/c maybe now recruiting will be willing to let crappy summer associates work elsewhere instead of worrying about some bullshit 100% yield goal.

A mid-Dec start date isn't too onerous, and I'd be all over that Deferral Program -- long vacation somewhere with a low SoL.

Interesting move, LW

"vitural"

75K? Travel around the world for 8 months, work with some Int'l NGO.

Sounds like a plan.

How awesome is it that the guy's last name is "Tang." There are so many good jokes that could be made out of that.

62k to pursue "other interests"? Are you kidding me? So can I go back to my parents house and play xbox in the basement all year? Id be all over that.

I reiterate 11 and others' points. Hell, I've been out of law school for a good long time and if someone today offered me 75K to take a year and do something else I'd be gone in a NY minute.

Any 3Ls out there that remember OCI last year? Latham was the SHIT. I didn't get a callback and I was crushed, they were my dream firm. Can't believe what a favor that guy did me.

This is why attorneys are idiots: if you have massive debt from law school and someone offers you $75K, you pay off the debt, you don't travel for a year and piss it all away. Stay where you are and get a job at fucking Barnes & Noble, but put the $75K to paying off loans. Especially since you might never actually work at L&W at this point.
-3L with no loans, suck on it

So basically they're paying for the 6 months severance by saving on 3 months pay for incoming associates and also offering the deferral program. This is a pretty savvy financial and PR move.

Any 3Ls out there that remember OCI last year? Latham was the SHIT. I didn't get a callback and I was crushed, they were my dream firm. Can't believe what a favor that guy did me.

interesting idea 19! i totally agree. anybody think firms could get into that idea?

Crazy biglaw, they think totem pole alive!

Latham was a wannabe player with the real top tier (Skadden/S&C/DPW/STB/Cravath). When I see those guys lay off 200 people, then I will be VERY worried (as opposed to, just worried. I don't think LW is any kind of leader among the firms it seems to consider its peers.

The answer is "no."

2Ls with Latham offers should be VERY scared by the deferral program. Every accepted deferral will likely translate into a no-offer at the end of the summer for some 2L.

Any 3Ls out there that remember OCI last year? Latham was the SHIT. I didn't get a callback and I was crushed, they were my dream firm. Can't believe what a favor that guy did me.

21- Your comment is idiotic. I hardly find working at Barnes & Noble fulfilling. I would take this offer in a minute and be on the next plane. After beginning to practice, one will never have the time, freedom and money to spend travelling for nearly a year again. Loans, on the other hand, can be paid back over the next 30.

Any 3Ls out there that remember OCI last year? Latham was the SHIT. I didn't get a callback and I was crushed, they were my dream firm. Can't believe what a favor that guy did me.

I'm not sure what stigmas they're breaking. Latham was never a Wachtell or Cravath. I can see Skadden using this as an excuse to do layoffs, and no one is immune, but the smaller, more elite firms will still be reluctant to let go of associates. Staff may be a different story...

i say take the offer

step 1-
get a 1 way ticket to europe in september

step 2- ?

step 3-
1 way ticket back from japan/china in may

Any 3Ls out there that remember OCI last year? Latham was the SHIT. I didn't get a callback and I was crushed, they were my dream firm. Can't believe what a favor that guy did me.

Do the December starters receive only 13k? Did L&W give them more? That doesn't seem like much money for a family moving to a new city... especially with no health insurance...

At least they didn't rescind offers. Firms that do that this late are disgusting or in such dire trouble they won't make it much longer anyway, such that they might as well dissolve now!

Hey geniuses: try reading the full memo. They are only offering a certain number of people the option to take the $65k and volunteer for a year ("The number of openings in this Deferral Program will vary by office").

This shouldn't make 2L summers any more worried. More important factors are whether the summer class is oversubscribed, and it sounds like it isn't (rumor has it NY is looking at 25-30, compared with 60+ last summer), and what the economic outlook is like at the end of the summer.

I highly doubt Latham will deviate from the standard offer rate of other firms. If Latham is extending offers to 50% of the class, most other firms will probably do the same because it means the economy is in the crapper.

just wondering, does anyone remember OCI last year? was Latham well regarded? was anyone out there upset when they didn't get a call-back?

21 has a point. Pay of the loans, now. The sooner they are gone, the better your life is (and the less you have to worry about Latham's next round of lay-offs after you start in 2010).

interesting idea 19! i totally agree. anybody think firms could get into that idea?

October 2010 start date: so does that mean a year and a half with no medical benefits?

Hope you don't get sick.

6 - hilarious

'Precedent'? What this 'precedent'?

Is that like the time a did a little white, and that crafty Jew Stern say I don't get to play ball no more, so other people don't go out and do the same?

I hates 'precedent'!

as a 3L going to a big ny firm, i would be ALL OVER that offer.

take $10k or so, travel for a month or so.

take the rest, put a dent in my law school debt.

pick up a job doing something worthwhile at a nonprofit; further pay off my loans.

bum around my parent's place for a year.

omg, give me now.

My firm would never do anyhting like Latham because . . . . Gotta go, the managing partner and head of HR need to see me ASAP.

pearl jam = teh credited band

I'd take the 75k, spend the fall bouncing around Europe, the winter bouncing from beach to beach in Southeast Asia, come back in the spring, spend 6 months working for some nonprofit or writing. I'm getting a little excited just thinking about it.

And now I'm a little disappointed because I'll be behind my desk (hopefully) the whole time.

I'm not sure what stigmas they're breaking. Latham was never a Wachtell or Cravath. I can see Skadden using this as an excuse to do layoffs, and no one is immune, but the smaller, more elite firms will still be reluctant to let go of associates. Staff may be a different story...

Two 3L’s from Seton Hall are driving along the Jersey Turnpike towards Manhattan. The woman in the car looks up from her copy of The American Lawyer as the man slows the car down.
Woman: “What are you doing?”
Man: “Isn’t that Robert Dell, the managing partner of Latham & Watkins, by the side of the road? Maybe he needs a ride into Manhattan.”
Woman: “He has an axe!”
Man: “But he is a BigLaw partner. Maybe if we do him a favor, he will offer us jobs at Latham.”
Woman: “He has an axe!”
Man: “I’m sure there’s a good reason for it.”
The man stops the car, rolls down the window.
Man: “Excuse me, Mr. Dell, but what’s with the axe?”
Dell: “It’s a . . . . . letter opener.”
Man: “Hop in!”

2Ls have several hurdles:

1. Some summer associate offers are likely to be revoked.
2. Fewer SAs will get offers now that there is NO STIGMA to not offering 100% of the SA class.
3. Number of slots for 2010 will be reduced by those from 2009 who defer arrival until 20010.
3. Even SAs with offers may be revoked if economy doesn't recover and further cuts in associates are made.

Uncertainty is equal or greater for the 1Ls. Enjoy!

Sounds like a nice deal, but be prepared to lose your future at Latham. Don't want to win the battle but lose the war.

5- what? S&C?

isnt paying someone $75k to not show up equivalent to saying that they won't be able to bill 250 hours in the entirety of the next year?(assuming a billing rate of $300/hr)
even counting health benefits, etc., i find it hard to believe anyone won't be able to bill 500 hours in any given year, no matter how slow it is.

how does this make sense? am i missing an important variable here? or are things really that slow?

What I want to know is if I can take the clerkship I already accepted for 2009 and somehow get a law firm to pay me to "start" in Oct. 2010.

In other words, I was already going to "defer" my start until Oct. 2010. Maybe I should get paid to do it.

Additionally, getting money now while earning nothing would beat taking the clerkship bonus (assuming firms are still paying them) when working and paying Obama taxes in a few years. Just a thought...

You do know that the stipend is taxable income, so it's not like one could pay off all of their loans with it, unless you only have about $35k in loans.

RE: Loans

Don't payoff your loans now - inflation over the next decade will take care of most of the real economic burden of your loans. When China stops buying t-bills the Fed gets to step in and - voila - printed money.

You do know that the stipend is taxable income, so it's not like one could pay off all of their loans with it, unless you only have about $35k in loans.

What I want to know is if I can take the clerkship I already accepted for 2009 and somehow get a law firm to pay me to "start" in Oct. 2010.

In other words, I was already going to "defer" my start until Oct. 2010. Maybe I should get paid to do it.

Additionally, getting money now while earning nothing would beat taking the clerkship bonus (assuming firms are still paying them) when working and paying Obama taxes in a few years. Just a thought...

If I were an incoming Lathamite, I would take the money, live frugally, and do everything possible to line up other places to land in case October 2010 rolls around and L&W says "oh, right, about that job..."

Spending money to travel or sitting on your ass in Tuscany while you have over $100k in students loans would be, SURPRISE!, a really goddamn stupid idea.

And if you don't have loans but do have an L&W offer, then this isn't the first time that you've had someone give you tens of thousands of dollars at a pop. Nicely done.

How is $13000 supposed to get the incoming 3Ls who don't take the option to December? Pretty tough to survive on that paltry amount when you have to move to a new city...

50 is an idiot.

LW 2L summers already have dates and salary confirmed - no offers will be pulled.

Cravath PPP was down 25% too - so what does that say? If firms aren't cutting costs now, they will soon. LW is ahead of the curve in the V10. Just watch.

As a 2007 law school grad who worked through a slow year before getting laid off, my advice to the incoming people is to TAKE THE MONEY and come back in 2010. Working at a law firm usually sucks, and it REALLY REALLY sucks if you are slow. You will feel like a slacker even if you aren't. Go do something fun and/or meaningful and don't waste your youth hunting around for work assignments. This is probably the only time in your life that someone will pay you $60K to do nothing.

they should have called it a "paid sabbatical" -- 6-months pay for a 1-year sabbatical. keep option on table of rehire, and just fire the lot by text if the economy hasn't improved.

Do you guys think other top firms, such as Skadden/DPW/SC/Cravath will now feel free to lay off some associates? Even though DPW/SC/Cravath are not as highly leveraged as Latham, they still have some usually large summer classes in the past two years.

Do you guys think other top firms, such as Skadden/DPW/SC/Cravath will now feel free to lay off some associates? Even though DPW/SC/Cravath are not as highly leveraged as Latham, they still have some usually large summer classes in the past two years.

How is $13000 supposed to get the incoming 3Ls who don't take the option to December? Pretty tough to survive on that paltry amount when you have to move to a new city...

How is $13000 supposed to get the incoming 3Ls who don't take the option to December? Pretty tough to survive on that paltry amount when you have to move to a new city...

Latham to Public Executions!!!

How is $13000 supposed to get the incoming 3Ls who don't take the option to December? Pretty tough to survive on that paltry amount when you have to move to a new city...

62K = go backpacking for 6-8 months. Not such a bad deal, esepcially if they didn't really want you anyway.

And if they dont want you when you return, its likely you would have been canned in the interrim anyway.

What I want to know is if I can take the clerkship I already accepted for 2009 and somehow get a law firm to pay me to "start" in Oct. 2010.

In other words, I was already going to "defer" my start until Oct. 2010. Maybe I should get paid to do it.

Additionally, getting money now while earning nothing would beat taking the clerkship bonus (assuming firms are still paying them) when working and paying Obama taxes in a few years. Just a thought...

I find it very insulting that they are offering anybody $63k for a "deferral". Thanks a lot, Bob, my infant son appreciates your generosity!

5- what? S&C?

72 - Yeah but this could clear out a lot of younger/single/childless first years and leave more space/work for you. I was a 26YO incoming associate I would probably take the money; screw it, I dont have to even pay rent if Id prefer to travel.

Unbelievable, some of the idiocy I'm reading here about Latham's offer to pay $75K if an incoming fall associate defers for a year and goes to work in the public interest. If a new graduate is not going to use the opportunity to pay down law school debt (which is a fine idea), why he or she, with NO meaningful legal work experience, choose to go on a high-priced year-long vacation instead of getting work experience at a non-profit? Experience which no incoming associate gets in their first year at Latham or any other top tier law firm anyway unless it's through pro bono since 1-3rd years are too low on the food chain to be trusted with any work that could actually make or break a project or case at large firms? Why not actually work with real clients, at a salary 50% higher than what the folks who are doing public interest law for a living start out at? Still keeping the at-least- theoretical promise that there will still be a job in Biglaw when it's all over while improving your standing in the elite-law-firm partnership tournament because unlike other first years with no experience, you've actually practiced some law? What crackhead *wouldn't* take that deal?

Maybe the kind that sees themselves as being entitled to a high-end legal job making more money for knowing nothing from the get-go, such that they deserve the consolation of a paid vacation for a year if they can't have that?

Unless of course folks think they are too good to actually get their hands dirty doing real law for real people for a year merely because they went to a top-tier school?

Thank God I graduated from SLS 20 years ago, when the professors were still teaching common sense career development strategies (as opposed to greed strategies) as part of the law school curriculum.

When did the Latham Summers get their dates? As of last night, my friend who is going there still did not know. Latham told her that they would sent out the dates in mid-March.

Any of you who thinks this is "deferral" is a moron. It's a severance.

61- When did Latham summers get their dates? As of last night, my friend who is going there still did not know the dates. Latham had told her they would sent out dates in mid-March.

No way josay would I take the money. You have 3-4 weeks vacation during the year to travel to Southeast Asia and sip wine in Tuscany, not to mention all the downtime during holiday/weekedns to do whatever you want to do. Your salary will be much more than the $63K being offered (I assume you will get the additional $13K bar stipend), which will allow you to have more money left over to pay down your debt or invest. You will have health benefits. You will begin to add experience to your resume, as well as the opportunity to network like crazy with LW partners in order to begin building relationships. You also have all the benefits of a law firm at your disposal (lawyers, legal assistants, library, CLE, etc.) to learn as much as you can about any given subject or try to publish an article or do pro bono during your downtime. You will market yourself as a responsible professional committed to your job. In other words, accepting LW's offer, I think, would be the STUPIDEST move you can make at this point.

On the other hand, if you hated law school and do not want to be a lawyer, there is not better time to make a change and pursue other interests.

Good luck!

75- Because it would be really, really fun. And it probably a once in a lifetime opportunity.

MAny would say its worth the risk of having a year gap if our qualifications are otherwise excelent.

61- When did Latham summers get their dates? As of last night, my friend who is going there still did not know the dates. Latham had told her they would sent out dates in mid-March.

the precedent is in the opportunities available for laid off attnys. they could combine a small percentage of the severance package for renting commercial space and hiring a small staff of their own. that assumes, of course, that they have the confidence to develop and carry out the simple business model that has exploited and enslaved them during their biglaw tenure. the business plan has been laid out for you.

i know many of you won't agree with that assessment, but that's because you are too broken and unsure of yourselves to conceive of starting your own business and actually turning a profit.

Latham Summers got dates via email this morning, they informed us about layoffs, etc. and sent dates/salary.

We're all good. Not that I was ever worried...yeah right.

75 = cranky tight-ass. Here is a diagram: *

I would take the 6 months and board the next flight to Ft. Lauderdale or Naples.

80 = 22 year old 1L.

80 - As I said, it seems that they have stopped teaching career development strategies as part of the elite law school experience. Credentials, when you have no experience -- and a gap -- go only so far., even in the top tier. Particularly when folks with the same credentials (graduation from a top tier school and no real work experience) will be graduating when you get back from your fun vacation. You will have nothing more to offer than they will, so why would a firm hire a deferred person over a brand new candidate just graduating who was with them this summer? After all, there is nothing in the elite summer associate hiring process that links getting an offer to actual talent practicing law, so a 1st year associate is a 1st year associate. Unless he or she brings something to the table like actual skills, which are developed not in the elite classrooms (and I say that as an elite graduate) but on the ground.

But, to each his/her own, I guess,

2L offer rate should hover between 40-60% this year.

how is 13k supposed to get you to december? i have no idea, but it's better than the 0k that most other incoming first years get

Actually 75, thank god you graduated from SLS 20 years ago, when the average law school debt nationwide was 16k.

80 - If the only thing on your resume is a JD, even from a top tier law school, your "qualifications" are not otherwise "excellent."

HTFH.

90 - You're kidding, right? Try more like 60-75K, for Stanford, unless you had mom and dad to help. Folks today whinge about how bad their debt is, but at the elite schools the debt has been bad for decades.

Clearly the time has past to stop calling Latham a top law firm.

Latham is the new Shearman.

92 - link, check page 5
http://www.abcny.org/pdf/report/lawSchoolDebt.pdf

if you think that dpw/s&c/cravath/ectc aren't already doing stealth layoffs, you're living in fantasy land. they're just much more subtle, gradual about it. it's considered "unseemly" for cravath to layoff 190 attorneys at one time like latttham, but you better believe that they're cutting costs like everyone else (even if they call it "performance reviews" or whatever).

i mean, do the freakin math. the top tier nyc firms overhired just like everyone else. and there's little to no demand right now. dpw was staffed to do several ipos per month. there have been NONE for 6 months! how in the HELL are these firms just gonna sit around and do nothing and watch their ppp dwindle??

my theory: latham is smart to do this. they're shoring up their ppp and positioning themselves to poach top partners from the idiotic, ultra-conservative firms who consider layoffs "unseemly."

93 = will get canned if does not improve grammar

any guesses on the percentage of Latham SA's who get offers this year?

I'd take the 75k, spend the fall bouncing around Europe, the winter bouncing from beach to beach in Southeast Asia, come back in the spring, spend 6 months working for some nonprofit or writing.
__________________________________________

It's $75k, not $750K. And when you have no job in a year, you'll probably want to reconsider all that "bouncing around," Latham PR Troll.

Only way you can pay back some loans with 75k is if you live in your parents' basement and hang out at the local 7-11 with high school dropouts.

92 - I appreciate the link to the theoretical averages, but I know what the debt was that I and many others in my class incurred (class of 1990) and 16K over the 3 years was not even close to what folks were facing - the major reason that, back then, graduates made the same arguments about why they HAD to go to elite firms rather than follow their passions as are made today. Tuition at SLS at that time already exceeded that by a goodly amount. And that's before one takes into account the cost of books and actually keeping a roof over your head unless you lived with mom and dad (and almost nobody did.)

My sympathies go out to those that lost their jobs. However, Latham really stepped up in its handling of the current situation. Six months severance is great and the $62,000 payment to incoming first-year associates is a creative solution. Props to Latham.

92 - I appreciate the link to the theoretical averages, but I know what the debt was that I and many others in my class incurred (class of 1990) and 16K over the 3 years was not even close to what folks were facing - the major reason that, back then, graduates made the same arguments about why they HAD to go to elite firms rather than follow their passions as are made today. Tuition at SLS at that time already exceeded that by a goodly amount. And that's before one takes into account the cost of books and actually keeping a roof over your head unless you lived with mom and dad (and almost nobody did.)

The only firm that I see hiring right now is Weil.

JT would take that deal in a heartbeat.

95, that article's "average debt load" includes TTT schools.

It used to be that elite schools were expensive, while TTT schools were cheap. TTT students wouldn't be able to afford expensive TTT schools. Private lenders would only lend to elite students since they're the ones who can pay it back.

But today, thanks to government-guaranteed student loans, any TTT student can borrow $150k and go to Chapman or Cooley to get a law degree.

But hey, let's make education even more affordable and expand the student loan program even further. It's not like schools are entirely aware of this and raise tuition prices commensurate with the loan increase, in order to capture the entire government subsidy. Thanks Democrats!

I assume someone has already commented on the fact that the $100k cap on severance makes this a lot less than 6 months pay for senior layoff victims.

Just like Nas said: "Biglaw is dead"

77 - I don't think deferral is severance. If the people who take it come back with one year of honed skills be it at legal aid or at an international NGO. Latham would be a fool not to take them over someone without such a gap year. On the other hand anyone who is going to just get drunk in Tuscany, might want to find something, anything, with which to pad their resume, or else risk being "reconsidered" in 2010.

85 - Ft. Lauderdale or Naples?? That's really the choice? Classy.

I'm a third-year at a biglaw firm in NYC. I paid off my law school debt ($130K) in two years. I have friends who did the same or better. I am not telling anyone else how to live or spend their money, just saying we're not rock stars here. There's nothing wrong with maintaining a bit of humility and frugality. It does seem like many associates forget that.

People here need to learn some basic economics: associates are a cost item, not a revenue generator. It's simply false to say that, if an associate could have billed 500 hours next year, it's a bad idea to pay them to defer. That 500 hours they would have billed will get billed by remaining associates, so any dime less than $160,000 paid to associates for a deferral is prudent profit-maximizing (or, in this case, preserving). Adding/losing associates only affects revenue when the current attorney population is working at 100% of capacity, which is far from the case.

I'm a third-year at a biglaw firm in NYC. I paid off my law school debt ($130K) in two years. I have friends who did the same or better. I am not telling anyone else how to live or spend their money, just saying we're not rock stars here. There's nothing wrong with maintaining a bit of humility and frugality. It does seem like many associates forget that.

111/113, bravo. I am on track to paying down my student loans within a year of starting.

People, it is not necessary to pay $2500 for a studio in Manhattan.
Sex in the City was not an economically realistic TV show, as that kind of lifestyle cannot be supported by writing a weekly column for a minor newspaper.

why is it that so few on this site can learn how to type a message and hit post just one time?

LaTTTham is such a TTT. How dare they call themselves an elite law firm. Elite law firms do not have 2000 associates. Moreover, elite law firms do not ruin their 1st year associates' careers.

Good points 103 and 106. Just worried that salaries might eventually be going back down (125k?), while the "elite" law schools have been jacking up tuitions commersurately with recent salary increases. Which leaves the classes of 08-10 pretty screwed.
- 95

Dear 115- the reason being because they are Lawyers!

Western New England School of Law is having a banner year!

79--HaHaHaHaHa...associates taking 3-4 weeks vacation!! That's rich! HoooooHooooo...weekends and holidays to have a life! Wait...wait...stop it, I'm getting a side stich from laughing so hard.

The reason to take the offer is that from the day you enter the firm to the day you escape, your life is over. What I wouldn't give to have the youth back that I sold for 30 pieces of silver.

I made 'em offer they couldn't refuse.

120, you're working at the wrong firm.

Does anyone remember that LW actually laid-off lots of people before today and only provided 3 months severance to those individuals. The percentage of laid-off associates is really more like 22% and the average severance is really more like 4.5 months (less the difference to account for capped seniors in this round).

54's proposal would conflict with the Code of Ethics governing federal law clerks....

If an incoming Latham 3L had connections that gave them an opportunity to bail and go to a healthier peer firm (that hasn't frozen, has normal start dates, etc), do you think they should take it?

I say take the money to buy a ticket to some third world country where your loan creditors will never find you. That's really your only way out of this hole at this point.

If an incoming Latham 3L had connections that gave them an opportunity to bail and go to a healthier peer firm (that hasn't frozen, has normal start dates, etc), do you think they should take it?

Hey 111/113, I would love to hear some details on your monthly budget. I am a first year, conflicted btwn paying off my loans asap or stockpiling cash so that I can survive for a long time if I get laid off.

I am a former Latham associate who jumped before the bloodbath murmurs began. I have to say that I feel awful for my friends (despite the 6 month severance), but I feel far worse for those I helped recruit for summer 2008 & 2009 classes. I guess this is the downside of believing in your firm...sorry former and incoming summer associates.

Hey 111/113, I would love to hear some details on your monthly budget. I am a first year, conflicted btwn paying off my loans asap or stockpiling cash so that I can survive for a long time if I get laid off.

Hey 111/113, I would love to hear some details on your monthly budget. I am a first year, conflicted btwn paying off my loans asap or stockpiling cash so that I can survive for a long time if I get laid off. Right now I save between 5 and 6K a month, though it doesn't seem to amount to much.

125, Latham is actively taking measures to counteract the economic climate. Unless your healthier firm is Paul, Weiss or Weil, I'd probably stay put. Frankly, I'm concerned about my firm. We're roughly in the same situation as Latham, but we haven't done anything about it.

131, I paid off my loans in about 3 years (could have done it faster but wanted to save a substantial amount at the same time, just in case). My key thing was living in an outer boro (rent: $1300/mo). I did go out to a few fancy dinners now and then (and had to take a taxi back, occasionally) but mostly lived frugally. Shopped at sales at mid-range stores. Vacationed nicely, but not at 5 star hotels. I paid around $1500-2000 each month to loans, plus all bonus money.

Over/under on LW's Vault drop:

20

131, my monthly net this past year was somewhere between $8K and $9K (higher in the later months after SS tax maxes out). I live in Brooklyn (which I love) and pay $1275 in rent. Utilities add about $200. I budget another $1500 per month for food, clothes, entertainment, holiday gifts, the occasional trip, emergencies, etc., which is MORE than enough (actually it feels lavish). The remaining $5K - $6K went toward loans, and now they go into savings. Frankly I have no idea how people blow through that kind of money unless they have kids or some kind of crazy medical condition that requires frequent hospitalization. The most I ever spend on a vacation is $2K (once a year or so), and I can't fathom paying $2500/month for a Manhattan apartment. I feel like even $1275 is outrageous, but that's the one downside of NYC in my opinion. -- 111/113 accidental double-poster

My priority is saving, not paying off low-interest, pretty much indefinitely deferrable debt that barely costs me anything and that I can pay off anytime I want with the piles of cash I'm accumulating.

Cash is king in a recession--having no student loans and $25 in the bank isn't going to help you much when you get laid off. Having $25k in deferrable student loans, and $150k in the bank might.

Here's my question:

Let's say Latham does another round of layoffs in six months when the economy hasn't turned around. Is there any realistic chance that they would give less than six months severance to those laid off in the second round?

Perhaps they could call them "performance based" and give three months. But I don't see them doing less than six months if and when there is a second round?

Comments?

CLASSY MY ASS!! MORE LIKE CONNIVING!!

Classy is if the firm actually swallowed losses by provding the 6-month severence. In reality, they just shifted the losses to the incoming 3L by moving back start dates 3 mos. And giving only $13,000 to last till December is a not so subtle hint to defer-and adding that the space is limited - my gosh, such a classic sales tactic.

All in all, by pushing back start dates and encouraging deferral, L&W will save lotsa $$$, allowing them to avoid rescinding offers and provide better severence. What's more, its going unnoticed due to layoffs/ severence package.

A PR GENIUS MOVE. Announce two bad news together and have one pay for the other. No one makes big fuss about the date pushbacks while talking about the great severence. Genuinely, though I'm impressed with L&W's business sense.

Some people on here don't have a clue... Taking the 75 G's and spending 6 months-1 year living in places like Thailand, Argentina, Bosnia, Peru, Ecuador, etc. where you can get an apt. between 200-500/month and live on $1000/month, while learning a foreign language AND working for an ngo on a volunteer basis AND spending weekends on ridiculous beaches or taking side trips all the while paying off your loans w/ the remainder of the money might actually be more beneficial than sitting on your parents couch, watching jenny jones, eating dorritos and losing your mind while you watch the economy tumble. Holier than thou douchebags who yell at others because they think it is not 'prudent' to "waste money travelling" while you have loans have no perspective. Don't listen to these people... they'll probably end up fat and middle aged, in unhappy marriages in some god forsaken subub living perfectly "prudent" lives.

106 - Lets face it legal advice is a commodity and a public good. This is why we should nationalize legal education in America, standardize the curriculum (with a very high standard used), and only allot enough slots as the market would allow. Kinda similar to how medical schools are handled in the UK.

Just like the salary freezes, Latham is setting the precedent for SUCKING COCK. FUCK YOU LATHAM!

138, see comment 22. You're about 3 hours late with this observation.

65,

There are enough comments on this list that sufficiently detail the stupidity of your comment (i.e., that graduates from lower ranked schools should never have been in big law to begin with). As for me, at one of the top international firms in the world and a graduate from SJU, my decision to take the full-scholarship at SJU over some IVY league law schools was well worth it. After all, even you can admit (I’m giving you at least some undeserved credit), that making $160k a year with no debt is better than $160k a year plus $120k a year in debt.

65,

There are enough comments on this list that sufficiently detail the stupidity of your comment (i.e., that graduates from lower ranked schools should never have been in big law to begin with). As for me, at one of the top international firms in the world and a graduate from SJU, my decision to take the full-scholarship at SJU over some IVY league law schools was well worth it. After all, even you can admit (I’m giving you at least some undeserved credit), that making $160k a year with no debt is better than $160k a year plus $120k a year in debt.

84. If that was a Kurt Vonnegut reference, then all I can say is, God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater.

139 . . . werd

I love that these firms will pay 60K to not take the job and someone will find this a horrible thing. 60K to not work right out of law school, that is amazing. The problem is there are too many entitled kids coming into Big Law, shut up and accept that for no reason other than being good at taking exams, you get paid 180K a year. I don't feel sorry at all for any of them.

147: The entitlement comes from the $150K in loans those same students now have racked up. You feel entitled b/c you invested a fucking boat load of money you fucking moron. Where's the payoff...

135's mult-post round of self-applause for paying off her loans early is pretty tiresome. Biglaw associates, unless they have a fierce cocaine habit, both save money and choose to pay the loans over time because it makes economic sense to consume now or invest in other assets rather than effectively buying your own debt that pays you 2-5%, i.e., inflation. The comedy is that you lived like a shopgirl while being young and single and well-off in the world's greatest city. And now you can take your financial freedom and retreat to some grim townhouse in Reston Town Centre and live out your dreams. Bravo.

148: That was YOUR CHOICE!

Hey 148 you fucking idiot, every law student gets that same amount of debt, yet the Big Firm people feel like it is their god given right to make 180K. What other profession rewards people to that extent for doing well in college and then a standardized test. I can't name one. I feel oh sorry for them, they have to take their 70K and be unemployed, cry me a river.

Just heard that 3 Latham NY PARTNERS have been cut: Dave Stewart, Mitch Seider and Bradd Williamson. There may be more. I'm sure they got more than 6 months severance!

This guy Dell might want to revise his bio: Robert M. Dell is the Chairman of the Executive Committee and Managing Partner of Latham & Watkins LLP and is resident in the firm's San Francisco office. During his tenure as Chairman, Latham has experienced tremendous success and has grown from 598 lawyers practicing in 11 offices to its current size of more than 2,300 lawyers in 28 offices, including more than 500 lawyers in Europe and Asia. The firm is now one of the 10 largest law firms in the world.

Just heard that 3 Latham NY PARTNERS have been cut: Dave Stewart, Mitch Seider and Bradd Williamson. There may be more. I'm sure they got more than 6 months severance!

This guy Dell might want to revise his bio: Robert M. Dell is the Chairman of the Executive Committee and Managing Partner of Latham & Watkins LLP and is resident in the firm's San Francisco office. During his tenure as Chairman, Latham has experienced tremendous success and has grown from 598 lawyers practicing in 11 offices to its current size of more than 2,300 lawyers in 28 offices, including more than 500 lawyers in Europe and Asia. The firm is now one of the 10 largest law firms in the world.

Beyond PPP, the only difference between V20 firms is the price they are ready to pay to hide their mistakes. Firms like Cleary and CSM are ready to pay a lot to hide their deadwood (and there's a lot) while firms like LW are ready to pay less. But they all made the same mistakes -- prestige has nothing to do with that.

151=Government lawyer

148 = EPIC FAIL.

Architects, classical musicians, chefs, and TTT law students all have lots of student debt.
Should I get a whaaaaambulance for you?

12: I like the jab at Obama policy, but your analysis is not entirely correct. I don't think those that opt-out of the L&W deferral will work "less hard" just because some of their colleagues are being paid $62k to sit on a beach. They have careers to think about - it's not just about maximizing the $$ paid per hour worked.

But paying $$ into the tax system does not benefit the taxpayer in any meaningful way, let alone further his or her career. People who don't pay taxes don't ever thank those who pay their way.

Rather, they would have us pay even MORE of their way if they could -- and they've elected a president who has pledged to do just that.

That's the difference.

Layoffs & WaTTTkins!

12: I like the jab at Obama policy, but your analysis is not entirely correct. I don't think those that opt-out of the L&W deferral will work "less hard" just because some of their colleagues are being paid $62k to sit on a beach. They have careers to think about - it's not just about maximizing the $$ paid per hour worked.

But paying $$ into the tax system does not benefit the taxpayer in any meaningful way, let alone further his or her career. People who don't pay taxes don't ever thank those who pay their way.

Rather, they would have us pay even MORE of their way if they could -- and they've elected a president who has pledged to do just that.

That's the difference.

159/161, you mean that poor people are greedy ingrates who do whatever is necessary to take as much as they can from others? Who knew!
Next thing you're going to tell me that poor people commit more crime than people like L&W employees. Inconceivable.

Yes We Can!

149, dude, you're still living in the bubble times. Invest in other assets? Yeah, checked your 401(k) lately? I bet your stocks are doing great. Honestly, I cannot understand why anyone with serious debt would decide to pay more than $1500/mo rent. There're lots of alternative options outside Manhattan, and if you really want to go and party until the wee hours, the cab fare a few times a month is still cheaper. Other than rent, I don't really see what the big expenses are going to be when you're young and single, unless you have a drug and/or designer wardrobe habit (and even so you can find some pretty nice Armani and Prada at Filene's Basement). Remember, you're most likely going to make biglaw money only 4-5 years even in the best economy. Don't you want to save something for the future, when you're no longer young and single and childless?

The buzz on Bay is that the 75K will be paid in CND, has anyone else heard this rumour? I asked my trader friends; they seem to think this may be a good thing given that the greenback will likely fall during a recovery relative to commodity heavy currencies like CAD and AUS.

-Bay Street is Awesome!

154 - why would they cut the global co-chair of the insolvency practice? isn't that the type of person you would want to keep around? sounds fishy.

120 - I have no clue where you work, but I've worked at Biglaw for 7 years (multiple firms) and my life has always been mine. This notion of “your life is over” is just not the case. In fact, I don't have any law school friends who would agree with your assessment. If you think that spending a year traveling around, reading, learning a language, goofing off is going to help you achieve your goal of becoming a good lawyer and paying off your loans, you got another thing coming. If your goal is to change careers or eventually end up working for an NGO, then I understand taking the money and pursuing that goal now. If what you want to do is spend some years working at Biglaw, then taking the offer is incredibly moronic. First off, $165K is a hell of a lot bigger number than $63K - in fact, it’s an extra $100K in salary during your first year that you are walking away from. Second, the job of those who stake their claim at LW sooner rather than later is a lot more guaranteed than that of absentees/world travelers who have not established any ties with LW (e.g., the next letter will state “…we sincerely hope that your time in Fiji has been everything you wished for…we regret to inform you that we will have to postpone your starting date indefinitely…please do not contact us as we will be in touch with you in the distant future…). Third, while one won’t bill 2000 hours during the first year, he/she will have some work, as well as exposure to partners and clients to network and create professional relationships (and if you hustle hard enough, you will be able to get lots of work from other departments). Fourth, Latham provides a ton of other perks to take advantage of during slow times (health benefits, CLE/PLI, library resources, relationships with many institutions for pro bono work, etc.). Where is the benefit of traveling the world and spending the little money you have “chilling” or working at an NGO (assuming this is not what you want to do), and walking away from $100K? You want to travel somewhere exotic, take a paid week (or two) vacation and have a blast like the rest of us do.

Exactly what point are you trying to make, and do tell us the name of this ghastly law firm that has sucked the life from you for so many years...

-79

Does taking the deferral come with getting to be a SA again?

f*ck everyone who is saying they paid their loans off in a year and they live in $500/month sh*tholes in NJ. I am a third year and i know absolutely no one who has done that. you're either lying or cheap as f*ck. if it's the later, you just want to feel better about yourself for being so cheap by trashing people who actually live in manhattan, you know the place where you work. when you're working 15 hour days, sometimes it's nice not to have to go home all the way to jersey. and it's also nice not graduating from law school and being a lawyer and having less spending cash than your friends who worked at wal-mart straight out of high school and never went to college.

Scared 3L is, well, scared right now. My firm has confirmed our start date, but I don't trust them.

In all seriousness, should I call them up and ask them what the deal is? I think I have a right to know whether I should be planning on earning $160k vs. $0-75k.

All firms need to take Latham's strategy seriously. At least now it seems less likely that firms will just toss us to the curb, although if things get worse (which is likely), who the hell knows anymore.

79/166

are you kidding me with this advice? yes, by all means tell people not to take the lump sum of 75K, (which i realize will be around 40 after taxes)... it's a much better idea to say no, live off 13K til december and then be laid off jan 1 with no guarantee of any kind of severance package.

ps, if ur life is really that great and "yours" i'd be preparing for a layoff. it doesn't sound like ur on the partner track.

- 168

168, you have some anger management issues. Jealous much?

Sorry you're throwing $30,000 ($50,000 pre-tax) down the drain in rent and city tax every year, bro.

P.S. plenty of rich people, like law firm partners, don't live in Manhattan either. Only poor strivers like you do.

So, you could start in December 2009 at the risk of having no work and getting laid off before October 2010 or take a paid "sabbatical" and be guaranteed a position in October 2010 when, fingers crossed, the economy is doing better? Both are risks, but I think the firm is going to have more loyalty to the ones who deferred (at L&W's encourgaement) than the ones who start in December 2009. As for what to do in that stretch of time, traveling sounds great. If things turn around and you end up being in BigLaw for a good while, you aren't going to have much opprtunity to take such an extended period of time to travel. Even if you don't spend the entire time traveling, the ability to even take 3-4+ weeks to travel is a luxury not much afforded to (non-ballsy) BigLaw associates.

171 - nah, i'm actually not jealous. i was just sick of reading all these stupid comments from people who are obviously jealous of people who went to top tier schools or live in manhattan. and yeah, you're right, partners have mansions in the suburbs - good places for their nannies, wives and kids. since i have none of those things, i don't see the point of bringing up partners here.
thank u for calling me a poor striver though, i enjoyed that.
-168

i think what we can draw from this is

bush=obama=trillions to bankers, cronies and special interests

168, your anger and bitterness will consume you. The world is not so black and white. Jersey? Less spending cash than Wal-Mart employees? $500/month? 15-hour days? Straw men all. There is a huge middle ground where one can live very happily and comfortably, especially if you have the taste to distinguish between what is worthwhile and what is merely expensive... And nobody is trashing Manhattan. I *love* Manhattan, and have lived there many times. It's just not the be-all end-all of the city. For example, much of the best food in the city, especially if you're into authentic ethnic cuisine, is in the outer boroughs.

165 - possibly not. you would be suprised at how slow bk is for some of the top firms. my firm is quite slow in the bk department. yet the bk partners tell everyone in the firm how slammed we are. i find it hilarious. they actually think they are fooling the others. makes them look worse. if my group is slow, i can only imagine how slow the rest of the firm is.

For those people that say invest your money and pay your debts down slowly, you have a much different situation than current law students. All of your debt was at a variable interest rate, which many of you locked in at 1-3%, which makes it smart to pay down slowly. Current law students take out Stafford loans fixed at 6.8% interest rate, which only covers ~24,000 per year, and a large amount of Grad Plus loans fixed at an 8.5% interest rate. We cannot refinance our loans at a lower rate. Currently, it is financially wiser to pay back those loans quickly rather than hope you'll get better than a 6.8-8.5% return in the market.

So did every staff member get 6 months as well? Or was there some threshold they needed to meet? (i.e. 1 year employment?)

Dear Latham,

WE WILL NEVER FORGET

WE WILL NEVER FORGET

WE WILL NEVER FORGET

WE WILL NEVER FORGET

WE WILL NEVER FORGET

WE WILL NEVER FORGET

WE WILL NEVER FORGET

WE WILL NEVER FORGET

WE WILL NEVER FORGET

WE WILL NEVER FORGET

WE WILL NEVER FORGET

WE WILL NEVER FORGET

WE WILL NEVER FORGET

WE WILL NEVER FORGET

WE WILL NEVER FORGET

WE WILL NEVER FORGET

WE WILL NEVER FORGET

WE WILL NEVER FORGET

Dear Latham,

WE WILL NEVER FORGET

WE WILL NEVER FORGET

WE WILL NEVER FORGET

WE WILL NEVER FORGET

WE WILL NEVER FORGET

WE WILL NEVER FORGET

WE WILL NEVER FORGET

WE WILL NEVER FORGET

WE WILL NEVER FORGET

WE WILL NEVER FORGET

WE WILL NEVER FORGET

WE WILL NEVER FORGET

WE WILL NEVER FORGET

WE WILL NEVER FORGET

WE WILL NEVER FORGET

WE WILL NEVER FORGET

WE WILL NEVER FORGET

WE WILL NEVER FORGET

Tax calculator results for a single filer with no itemized deductions in NYC.

Bonus: $80,000.00

Federal Withholding: $20,000.00
Social Security: $4,960.00
Medicare: $1,160.00
New York: $5,880.00
NY SDI: $31.20
City Tax: $3,200.00

Net Severance Payout $44,768.80 ..... vomit

Tax calculator results for a single filer with no itemized deductions in NYC.

Bonus: $80,000.00

Federal Withholding: $20,000.00
Social Security: $4,960.00
Medicare: $1,160.00
New York: $5,880.00
NY SDI: $31.20
City Tax: $3,200.00

Net Severance Payout $44,768.80 ..... vomit

Hey dumb LA LW ASSociateS.

Which one of you dummies wasn't as smart as the 100k woodfired pizza oven that they just installed in the LA Office? We all know pizza makes people happier than attornies but this is ridiculous. How does it feel to have your job outsourced and find more value from a pizza oven? Anyone care to comment? 440 is only the beginning for LW.

I guess you same whiners here feel the same entitlement when you get into politics? Look in the rear view mirror, that's what your attitude gets us.

I guess you same whiners here feel the same entitlement when you get into politics? Look where that attitude got us. pfft

I feel horrible for some very talented friends who chose this place over other top options (I almost did as well). I have to question whether the firm will be around in a year.

Having Latham on the resume is now worse than having PH on it. If Latham remains a V20, then those rankings don't mean shit.

Anyone looking for a top firm on the West Coast should NOT take LaTTTham.

Best of look to those who were let go and those incoming associates who have been screwed. Take the 75K and hit the job market aggressively.

Latham management: Pathetic -- while trying to be a "national" firm, you have become a national disaster. Don't even try to pass your firm off as a top CA player or a V10 firm. Someone might actually have a case for fraud if you do so.

186: i'm assuming you're a 2L? how is having latham on the resume worse than having PH? having poor and short-sighted management doesn't mean the associated are any less talented than they were before.

and just wait until the rest of the firms start doing massive layoffs before you start gloating. if you don't think they're coming you're a bigger idiot than your post suggests.

Oh please. These people chose money over real law firms at which they are trained to be lawyers. Big Law pays outrageous salaries to people to perform glorified paralegal work at hyper-inflated rates. 15-30 lawyers on a case ... really? The billing practices verge on outright fraud. Take the severance and go somewhere were you will learn the profession of law.

168 exemplifies the problem with Biglaw associates in New York. Associates bitch about law school loans, but snap when their ridiculous lifestyle is questioned. As someone pointed out, a 3rd year gets s nearly $9K a month after tax - that is a lot of money. You do not NEED to pay $3000 for rent, spend $300 each time going out every Friday and Saturday, dine at Jean Georges with your gf/bf every weekend, and stay at 5-star hotels on your vacations to Paris. If you live a reasonable life, you can save a good chunk of money every month, even with loans.

The antithesis of the high school dropout who works at Wal-Mart is not Patrick Bateman. You do not need to be living in a $3000 apartment to feel that you are more successful than your lazy, dumb high school friend who didn't go to college. You earn $100K after tax - do not live like you earn $400K.

The party is over folks. Nothing to see here, move along. It sure was great while it lasted, though.

One thing I've learned since graduating is that NO ONE feels the need to trash talk firms that gave them offers. I have nothing but warm feelings for the other firms that were nice enough to try to recruit me (save for guilt for having wasted their time and money), and leave nothing but supportive comments following the posts annoucing layoffs at those firms.

98% of the posters on this blog were, or will be, dinged by Latham. Naturally, they all feel the need to bash the firm now. No wonder the comments on the earlier post hit 500 so quickly...

Best of luck to all those affected by today's layoffs.

Bottom line is that Latham was leveraged to the hilt, 3 associates for every partner is not sustainable and it seems but a stopgap to reduce to 2.7 associates for every partner. We'll see what happens with this one....

Of course those laid off today have nothing negative to say about Latham - they will be receiving a fat check for upwards of $50-60K next week as well as benefits for six months.

Has everyone forgotten about the 70 or 80 stealthily laid off associates from exactly one month ago? They received a 3 month package. And those affected were mostly mid level to senior associates. Perhaps a few of those stealthed were actually performance-related but many were in perfectly good standing until the moment they got counseled out.

I don't begrudge those who were laid off today - getting laid off in this market is very very painful. The job market is airtight, getting smaller everyday. I hope everyone lands on their feet.

However, what Latham management did to the stealthed - to lay many of us off for bogus performance reasons when CLEARLY the economy played a factor, then to tell ATL that the economy did NOT play a factor, then to conduct a second round of supposedly economic layoffs and add more insult to injury by repeating that there were no stealth layoffs and pay the newly laid off double the severance...

LATHAM FUCKED US OVER.

Bob Dell's memo mentions 12%, but if you include the stealth, the number is closer to 20%. OWN UP TO THE STEALTH LAYOFFS MOTHERFUCKERS.

193 - I hear you. I was laid off last month with perfectly good reviews and was told that my hours were too low. It was stressed that my low hours were my fault (despite good reviews) and that my hours could not be blamed on the economy or over-hiring. Funny how now these laid off attorneys can blame the economy and over-hiring and get twice as much money. Total Bull Shit! I actually enjoyed my time at Latham, but this is a huge slap in the face. I was pissed Latham wouldn't admit to stealth layoffs, but this is 100 times worse.

Are you kiddin'? When I was your age, I would lug fifty pounds of ice up five, six flights of stairs.

To all of the above posts:

Yesterday many of you were hating latham saying they better give 6 mths severance or else. well, latham stepped up and not only gave 6 mths severance today but gave 6 mths medical on top of it - and you all have found other reasons to bash latham yet again today.

Get over it! Latham is still standing, did not burn down - its here to stay. You sorry losers are just pissed because you never were offered a job there in the first place or will never have a firm like latham on your resume. Latham will rock on as usual....and you'll all be wishing you were on the money train...but just aren't smart enough.

Get over it - move on - get a life! Latham offered way more than it had to and its the end of the story. Life goes on and so will Latham.

This is a good deal. We live in interesting times. Go ahead and take it. It's less of a risk than twiddling your thumbs as an overpaid no-experience first-year associate. Could be a very exciting year of doing something else you like. Squeeze in another job or internship you would not otherwise have been able to take. Write a book. Work for a cause you care about even if it pays only a modest stipend. If you are NY or DC, there are gobs of nonprofits.

Question: Will L&W pay the malpractice insurance so they can do pro bono for this first year?

To 193 and 194. It's interesting to note that those who accept the severance offered today are required to sign an agreement releasing Latham for any and all liability arising from the laid off workers employment with Latham. Those who were counseled out less than a month ago were not required to sign any such release. I suggest you negotiate with management and ask to sign a release in exchange for the additional severance. If they refuse, sue them -- you probably have enough for a class action.

Once the other firms get through their layoffs - stealth or not - it will be clear that Latham will still the best firm in California.

199-I'm a GC (I worked at Cleary before) and even before this fiasco I didn't consider Latham as the best firm in California.

I'll be $1M that 186 is a bitter PH/OMM/GDC attorney that's lived in LW's shadow his entire career. Stay classy 186!

200: Notwithstanding Irell, MTO, and Quinn...it's pretty well known that LW, for the last 5 years at least, was the best firm in California. How they will rank among their California peers when the dust settles is anyone's guess, but something tells me they'll make out OK.

It was awful in SD today. We seem to have been hit disproportionately hard. A dozen or so associates, mostly 3 year or younger.

Latham will come out of this okay, assuming partners don't bail with their books of business.

But if I were a partner, I'd be pretty pissed that PPP were down 20%, lower than --gasp!-- Paul Hastings. Management claims that Latham isn't a charity, but now they're doling out unprecedented severance packages to 440 employees. Will that even be enough to keep attorneys productive? How many summers will arrive in 2.5 months?

Cleary Welcome Memo:

------------------------------------------------
2009
MEMORANDUM FOR INCOMING NEW YORK OFFICE ASSOCIATES

Re: Welcome To The Firm

Greetings! We are writing to welcome you to the firm. In preparation for your arrival, we have made available to you important information and forms on this Extranet site. This secure Internet site was developed for the private use of the Cleary Gottlieb community. It will keep you informed of news and information concerning your arrival at the firm, provide useful links and facilitate document exchange.

Arrival Dates

Following is the list of Fall 2009/2010 arrival dates:

Monday, September 14
Monday, October 12
Monday, November 9
Monday, January 11, 2010

Please note that in order to gain access to One Liberty Plaza on your arrival date, you will need to present a picture ID at the visitors' desk in the main lobby.

Please plan to arrive at 9:30 a.m. and come directly to the 39th floor reception area.

-------------------------

Maybe Cleary is actually busy / correctly staffed and wants us there?

Look guys, it was a massive debt bubble fueling the corporate sector over the past 30 years. The ponzi scheme is over and done.

I dislike L&W for two reasons:

1. They dinged me. I had offers from every other firm I interviewed at. But I attended a TTT in New York and, even though I was in the top 1% of my class, Latham really didn't want my TTT pedigree on their firm resume. Of course, they were happy to take my classmates who transferred to better schools and removed the "stink" from their resumes.

2. So many of the law students we've recruited over the past several years chose Latham over our firm. Everyone wanted to go to Latham. We've been scrounging after Latham's leftovers. They greedily hired every law student they could get their hands on, and now it's backfired on them.

It really sucks for the talented law students and junior associates whom other firms would have gladly hired. Now they have no experience, no jobs and an uncertain future. What Latham did was incredibly selfish.

I'm one of the staff laid off today in Chicago. I'm devastated. But, the severance package was more than fair. It did soften the blow. But more than my job and money (albeit I'm not sure what I'm going to do) I'm going to miss working with so many really cool people. Let's all face it - the economy sucks more than just the usual sucks and Latham tried really hard to not have to do this. They cut back as much as they could - although I have a few more suggestions (get rid of the donuts, free soda and juice and put a potted plant by reception!) I am keeping my fingers crossed that they'll call me back in the future. Even after this layoff, I'd be happy to go back, and would if asked. I think that all things considered, they handled this situation with grace. Afterall, this had to be awfully hard for them to do as they too are people, even though many whom were laid off today would disagree with me.

19 - You can keep your NY minute. I Texas I can get 4 hours from every one of your NY minutes. Of course, there's nothing to do for those 4 hours, but I do have them.

You should use that $75K to defer your "adult" lifestyle for a year. By that I mean continue living like a student - and not travel like a rich one. And get rid of some of that debt - you can't possibly outearn 8% loans with any "savings" idea you come up with. You also cannot discharge them either, for those of you who did not take bankruptcy.

Safe "savings" at 8%+ is what caused this disaster in the first place. Anyone's first priority should be to scrap high-interest debt. It won't go away if/when you leave BigLaw.

Needless to say, if you are going to defer all the way to 2010, don't move to NYC/CHI/LA until and *IF* you start your real job.

When you get there, don't live like Sex and the City. That lifestyle requires $300K+ salary or independent wealth. You don't have that salary and you have large extra debt in the form of your dear student loans.

79, I'm not sure your advice really is sound. An associate could show up in Dec 2009 only to get laid off in Feb 2010. The severance packages might not be as generous then. An associate that opts for the deferral gets the $ in hand and has the opportunity to do a whole host of things (including as 75 very sensibly suggested, gaining invaluable experience that will help distinguish your resume from the other junior associates that went to the same great schools with good grades, law review, just like you) in a market likely better than anything we are likely to see in 2009.

201 -- There's no Latham shadow to live in. The firm's reputation is in the shitter.

I guarantee that you're a Latham associate who went to a TTT law school and didn't have the credentials to get Gibson, Munger, Quinn, or Irell. (As my post mentioned, I did get a Latham offer and rejected it).

Don't try to act like it's as hard to get a job at LaTTTham as it is at these firms.

Focus on keeping your job (probably hard these days at your firm) and don't talk shit on people for sympathizing with those who have been laid off. Sounds like you should have been let go before the many talented people who were fired today.

---186

196 --- you're a douche bag.

Does anyone remember that LW actually laid-off lots of people before today and only provided 3 months severance to those individuals. The percentage of laid-off associates is really more like 22% and the average severance is really more like 4.5 months (less the difference to account for capped seniors in this round).

656:
Yes, I was laid off from another firm with severance and get unemployment. You can still collect Unemployment Insurance if you got a severance. You can sign up online. One week waiting period, so do it today.

Latham

This cycle will turn, and when it does, I will NEVER EVER refer you to any law student, prospective lateral or an prospective client. We will all LONG remember this.

Latham

This cycle will turn, and when it does, I will NEVER EVER refer you to any law student, prospective lateral or a prospective client. We will all LONG remember this.

Latham

This cycle will turn, and when it does, I will NEVER EVER refer you to any law student, prospective lateral or a prospective client. We will all LONG remember this.

WATCH OUR FOR MORE BAD NEWS FROM LATHAM - THIS AIN'T OVER YET FOLKS. WE TRUSTED LATHAM MANAGEMENT WHEN THEY FROZE SALARIES WITH THE IMPLICIT MESSAGE THAT LAYOFFS WOULD COME - BUT THAT IT WILL BE TOWARDS THE END OF THE YEAR. TO DO IT JUST 60 DAYS LATER LEAVES ONE WONDERING HOW MUCH OFF THE BS THEY TELL US IS TRUE. SCREW YOU LATHAM. I WOULDN'T TRUST YOU AS FAR AS I CAN THROW YOU.

From the Washington Post:

Latham & Watkins Cuts 190 Lawyers
Huge Global Firm Lays Off 250 Others

By V. Dion Haynes
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, February 28, 2009; D01

In a vivid illustration of how the global recession is battering the legal profession, Latham & Watkins, one of the largest law firms in the nation, announced yesterday that it will let go 190 lawyers and 250 paralegal and support staff.

Latham & Watkins, which represents clients such as District-based Carlyle Group, Goldman Sachs, Harrah's Entertainment and UBS, has nearly 270 lawyers in Washington and more than 2,000 worldwide.

The firm is struggling with declining profits as corporate clients slash legal spending because of a reduction in mergers and acquisitions, capital finance and transactions. The job cuts are among thousands that have roiled through the industry in recent months.

In February, hundreds of jobs were cut at firms with District offices, including 243 at Holland & Knight, 134 at Bryan Cave and 29 at Dechert. Officials at Latham and the other firms declined to say how many of the dismissals were in Washington.

Legal experts say 2008, following years of steady expansion and growing profits, was the worst year in recent memory for many law firms. Given the spate of layoffs this year, they expect 2009 to be no better.

"I think in 2009 you'll see that more [firms will experience a lower] profit level than we've ever seen. No doubt about it," said Thomas S. Clay, principal of Altman Weil, which provides management consulting services to law firms. Clay, noting that profits dropped 30 percent at some firms, added: "They could go through another round of layoffs if the work doesn't come back."

Bob Dell, who is Latham's chairman and managing partner and works out of the firm's San Francisco office, said yesterday that the 440 jobs being eliminated represent 12 percent of the firm's associates and 10 percent of its paralegals. The cuts will occur in several of Latham's 28 offices, including those in the District, New York and Los Angeles, the firm said.

In recent years, the firm expanded its hiring of associates, based on revenue that were growing 15 percent annually, Dell said. But revenue declined to $1.9 billion in 2008 from $2 billion in 2007 as transactional work fell off, prompting an examination of staffing levels, he said.

"We had an overcapacity [in staff] for some time. We were willing to live with that," Dell said in an interview. But in talking to clients, "we concluded this is not a normal recession. It will be longer lasting and a slower recovery. We couldn't maintain that overcapacity."

Nationwide, the number of employees working in the legal profession grew steadily during the past decade before taking a turn last year, according to Bureau of Labor Statistics data. Last January, 1.16 million were working in the profession, down from 1.17 million in January 2007. It fell to 1.15 million in January 2009.

Many lawyers have indicated that they think the job cuts will continue this year. In a recently published survey by the ABA Journal, 39 percent of 14,000 lawyers polled said they expected layoffs at their firm this year. Nearly 20 percent said they expected to lose their jobs this year.

Firms also are cutting costs through voluntary reductions. Hogan & Hartson this month offered buyouts in an attempt to reduce 257 support staff positions -- including 149 in the District.

"As technological capabilities evolve, our attorneys are able to generate more of their work product and we're finding out we don't need the same level of support," firm Chairman J. Warren Gorrellsaid.

"We're trying to make sure we're being appropriately cost conscious," he added. "We've been living with overcapacity for some time."

Latham's growth strategy reversed quickly. Just three months ago, Latham announced it had named 28 associates and two other lawyers as partners in Chicago, Hamburg, London and several other offices.

Dell said the workers losing their jobs will be offered a more generous severance package than usual.

The employees will receive salary for six months, instead of two to three months, he said. They also will retain their health coverage for that period, he said.

___

212 - Munger? Irell? Seriously? They're not even in the same league as Latham. All you bashers get over it. I've never even heard of Irell - wait I think I did her in law school.

LathamClassAction@gmail.com

If you have been laid off, counseled out, or asked to leave Latham & Watkins for any reason since January 1, 2009, please email LathamClassAction@gmail.com.

Please indicate your position, class level if an associate, and office.

If you have already signed a waiver of your right to sue, you are not eligible for this class.

LathamClassAction@gmail.com

186/212 - bitter much? Weren't you feeling vindicated just a little while ago?

221 - Seriously. Irell/Munger = less hours, more pay, better work, never review a document, no leverage - not collecting unemployment. And you get to live in Santa Monica or Newport Beach instead of NY.

221, aka Latham loser, a firm's importance is not judged by its Vault prestige ranking. But I guess you realized that by now, albeit a little late.

P.S. Look up the selectivity ranking for Munger.

you losers above still bashing latham? get a freakin' life!!! move on! get over it! Latham is still standing...

"One would hope that these firms, top firms, are making decisions based on their own profits and business projections."

No firms do that and ATL should know better. Why does Stroock pay the same $160 that Quinn does even though Quinn is more than twice as profitable? Because the market sets the compensation. Firms will be LAYING OFF MORE PEOPLE BECAUSE OF THE SENSATIONALIST COVERAGE THAT ATL GIVES TO LAYOFFS.

If somone had no idea what biglaw was about but only read this blog, they would think that every firm is conducting layoffs. This blog gives cover to partners everywhere who care more about increasing ppp than anything else. There is now no stigma attached to indicriminately laying off associates and making up whatever excuse.

Latham partners are still making tons of money. They could have conducted far fewer layoffs than they did and tried to weather the storm.

224: irell/munger = less work / no doc review?

you have to be joking

224/228: Everything 224 said is true except for no doc review. This conversation has been had before, but in California anyone who chooses LW, PH, or OMM over either Irell or Munger is either lazily misinformed, or has been lied to, or is just plain lacking in common sense.

Dude, I work for Irene and Munge. No doc review, and more time to surf...

229 --- What about Gibson over Munger/Irell?

230 - you are a disgrace to the field of law! you would never last at another top tier firm b/c you are L-A-Z-Y.

Am I reading this right that all separated associates and staff received 6 months severance? That seems like a huge financial cost for a supposedly struggling firm (half a year's pay + medical care without the benefit of any services), so maybe reports of Latham's demise are off base.

Also: was there a choice to opt into the plan? I am sure there were a number of associates that would have been pretty confident of their ability to find some type of job in six months--and if they were planning to leave BigLaw at some point in the next year or two anyway, this is a pretty sweet deal.

233 - yes 6 months severance plus COBRA costs for 6 months for associates and staff. No choice, unfortunately. Which kind of sucks, because if they had offered voluntary layoffs with 6 months of severance I'm sure a lot of people would have been happy to take it, and some of the people laid off who really wanted to stay could have probably kept their jobs.

233 - yes 6 months severance plus COBRA costs for 6 months for associates and staff. No choice, unfortunately. Which kind of sucks, because if they had offered voluntary layoffs with 6 months of severance I'm sure a lot of people would have been happy to take it, and some of the people laid off who really wanted to stay could have probably kept their jobs.

what are the chances that latham will do further head count reductions?

any latham representative on here that can truthfully and candidly answer this question.

236- In the WSJ article which covered the LW article, Bob Dell (Latham managing partner) said this was supposed to be a one shot deal, or something along those lines.

hats off to Latham for finding a balance between the marginal COST of each unoccupied associate and the marginal UTILITY in signaling that they value the same associates at higher levels than their peer firms.

In doing so, Latham PWNED! their PEER FIRMS firms who docilely submitted to the INFORMATION CASCADE manifest in the half-skadden trend.

what is most remarkable and precedent-setting about Latham's action here is that it resisted the urge to mimic numerous other firms that, to the unaided, public eye, appeared to be identically situated. its choice here could spell the difference between future inter-competitiveness among its peers. young, talented lawyers will compete more intensely for the Latham job hereafter.

other firms = pwnd!

Staff were escorted out of the building immediately after they were fired. Most were not given the opportunity to pack up their personal belongings and were told that they would be sent to them later. Attorneys and paralegals are given until 8pm tonight to clear out. Extra time would be given if requested. Blackberry and remote access was cut off at 6pm on Friday. Access in and out of the building was also cut off at 6pm on Friday. The firm is staffed this weekend to let people in and out as they clear out.

238 - what is pwnd?

239- true in the new york office, but each office set there own policies. i think in the other offices where not as many people were laid off, they gave both attorneys and staff more time to clear out.

Methinks 186/212 doth protest too much. Why so defensive?

I don't think so 233 - how about the hundred plus people they fired a week or two ago? No such severance was bestowed. Apparently this week's group blew the right people to get a little more money on the way out the door instead of being falsely labeled poor performers by a bunch of lying, duplicitous, heartless fucks.

So, what do people think about the future? On Friday, some of the survivors were already saying there still seems to be too many attorneys.

More layoffs possible?

244 - I'm guessing no more layoffs, although that's just an educated guess. My logic is that if they're going to do more layoffs, it probably won't be for another 4-6 months - otherwise, why not just include them in this round of layoffs? It's horrible for morale to keep doing cuts every two or three months. And if they don't lay people off for another 4-6 months, that means that with a six-month severance those associates wouldn't be off the books until early 2010 - i.e. right about the time the economy is projected to start turning around. Granted they could give less than six months' severance next round, but that would risk a huge PR hit and would crush morale internally. So I'm cautiously optimistic that Latham cut as many as they felt they'd need to cut this time around. But that's just my guess, and I wouldn't necessarily rule out another round of performance-based cuts in the next review period.

Best of luck to those who were let go - you will be missed.

245- When is the next review period at Latham?

I agree with everything 245 said, but with a caveat - there was rumor that part of why they did these cuts so close to the performance cuts was to leave enough time to do one more round of cuts, if necessary, before the summer program starts. I don't think it's the intention to cut any more people though. And I believe the next review period closes around May...can't remember.

I'm curious what people think about the chances of the incoming class of first year associates (ie those who are now 3Ls) who choose to start in Dec 2009 instead of deferring under the deferral program, being fired shortly after starting.

It seems like a gamble not to take the deferral program, risk getting fired a few months after starting if the economy hasn't picked back up, and then not having the $75K and not having a job. Thoughts on whether they would actually do this, as opposed to no-offering more of this year's summers or rescinding the offers of those who defer to 2010? Thanks.

247- Interesting. So basically from an economic standpoint, it would cost the firm the same thing to cut more people after next reviews, right? (Assuming a 3 month notice period after May reviews)

248- Nobody can reasonably speculate on that. I think what the events of the previous week have shown us is that ANYTHING and EVERYTHING is on the table from now on.

It was not that long ago that we though big firms firing 1st years was taboo. Now it's fairly common and part of any layoff.

248: It depends on how many take the offer. I'm an incoming first year at Latham NY and the rumor trickling down to us is that NY is looking for a 50% defer rate. If that number is not met, then there is a significant chance that we might be laid off to meet the 50% (or whatever their target is). If their target is met, then I think we'll be safe, assuming no further deterioration in economic condition. Other offices might have different percentage targets.

Ellie and Lat: Once we have a better idea of how these layoffs shook out, could we have a follow-up post on the distribution of layoffs by office?

I thought the next review period wasn't until the summer? People were just counseled out in January, and reviews are done every six months, so wouldn't the next review period be closer to June or July?

Regarding the deferral, I'd probably take it if it were me, although that's just personal preference - I have no inside information on this. Ever been asked what you'd do with your life if money were no object? This would basically give you a year to answer that question, because you'd be getting $75k to do whatever your heart desires. Personally, I'd go someplace with a dirt cheap cost of living and do something fun like volunteer with an NGO or teach English. You could pick up another language, have an amazing experience, and of course $75 grand goes REALLY far in developing countries. And I'd be shocked if Latham laid off people who take the deferral before they even work a day. I mean, they seem to be promising to hold your spot in return for taking the deferral, so wouldn't it be a breach of contract not to?

252 - I can tell you it was just around 80 in NY.

Ditto 252. I'm curious about how the non-NY offices were affected (and how the layoffs were distributed among the different classes).

254 - you are either stupid or a liar. It was less than 40 in NY. Hint: look up attorney profiles on lw.com, you will find 192 associates who have webmaster@lw.com as their email address.

256 - lw website has not been updated to reflect the laid off associates. all of them are still appearing on the external website. i don't know what you are basing your calculation of 40 on, but it is incorrect.

254 - i had heard 95 associates in new york were affected by the layoffs.

Wrong, 256. It was much more than 40 in NY. And I checked; there's no correlation between who has "webmaster" as their email address and who was let go (although I did notice that someone who was counseled out in January had the "Webmaster" email address).

- Not 254 (and not stupid or a liar either)

247 - did you hear the rumor that more layoffs are possible prior to the next review period from a credible source?

should we start working on plan b?

Isn't it ironic that LW announced 190 Layoffs and there are 192 people with WebMaster as their e-mail address...are we sure there is no coloration. Anyone let go on Friday that does now have Webmaster as their e-mail address on their profile?

Isn't it ironic that LW announced 190 Layoffs and there are 192 people with WebMaster as their e-mail address...are we sure there is no coloration. Anyone let go on Friday that does now have Webmaster as their e-mail address on their profile?

Isn't it ironic that LW announced 190 Layoffs and there are 192 people with WebMaster as their e-mail address...are we sure there is no correlation. Anyone let go on Friday that does not have Webmaster as their e-mail address on their profile?

260 - the folks that have a webmaster email address have it because they preferred to keep their email addresses confidential. we have the option to publicly display our pictures, phone numbers and email addresses. some folks prefer not to have their personal information available on the website. in order to reach those folks, you have to contact the webmaster and the email would be forwarded to the correct person.

263 thanks for the insight

I can confirm the webmaster address has nothing to do with those fired. Just looked up about 5 people who weren't fired and they all have it.

259 - absolutely not from a credible source. Just untraceable rumor heard from some associates who heard from someone who heard from someone.

249 and 253 - that is an interesting point about performance layoffs in the summer, with a presumed 3 month severance, not having a very different economic impact. I think the review period closes around May (for work done through May) and by the time you get your reviews turned in and read to you, it's summer. I am completely drawing a blank as to what month the mid-year reviews have been in for me in the past., but even a 3 month severance would probably take you a month or two beyond August depending on when ascomm gets around to the counsel out.

Isn't it strange that someone who had a public email address last week now has a webmaster email address? It's unlikely that multiple people made that switch over the course of a few days.

266 - let's quit with this line of thinking -- you are making stupid comments now. there are folks on the lw website that were laid off that have their direct phone number and direct email address listed on the lw website. meanwhile there are very senior well respected rainmaker partners with the webmaster email address.

the laid off folks will not be removed from the lw website until at the earliest march 6th. when they are removed, their profile will be removed in its entirety. it will not be that their email address is disguised.

Why would anyone not take the $75k?

The start of partner defections...from L&W to Gibson

http://www.gibsondunn.com/News/Pages/OutsourcingTechnologyTransactionsLawyerDanMummery.aspx

Latham screwed us.