You’re a 2L? I want to say one word to you. Plastics.
While the bad news continues to rain down on practicing attorneys, law students are the ones sitting there with a “deer in cataclysmic meteor event” look on their faces.
It’s been a while since we gave law students a chance to vent their frustrations, so here we go.
Today, NALP is out with actual statistics showing how 2Ls are seeing their jobs disappear in a pyroclastic flow. From a synopsis in the National Law Journal:
The median number of offers to 2Ls for summer associate positions at firms of all sizes fell from 15 in the fall of 2007 to 10 in the fall of 2008. The decline was even steeper at firms with 700 or more attorneys, where the median number of summer associate offers fell from 30 in 2007 to 18.5 in 2008. Additionally, fewer callback interviews yielded summer associate offers in 2008. In recent years, about 60% of callback interviews led to summer associate offers. Last fall, however, only 47% of callback interviews led to offers.
And after scrolling through the 20-page NALP report, we also noticed the shortening of summer programs:
Summer programs were typically 10 to 12 weeks long, regardless of firm size. Over three-quarters of offices reported summer programs of either 10, 11, or 12 weeks, although the lengths reported ranged from 6 to 19 weeks. For the vast majority of offices (80%), the 2008 summer program length was the same as in 2007. About 11% reported that their program was one or two weeks shorter compared with 2007; however, about 5% reported that their summer program was one or two weeks longer.
More numbers, statistics, and reasons to trade in your J.D. for a certificate of attendance in refrigerator repair, after the jump.
As tipster Artie Bucco might say:
2Ls are experiencing, nothing but constant ass rape.
As a result, TaxProf Blog highlights the only obvious move:
Not surprisingly, the offer acceptance rate also jumped. At 32.5%, it is the highest rate recorded since 2002.
And just to make sure that nobody carries a false hope that this storm will pass any time soon, the National Law Journal adds this little tidbit:
“This is sort of what we expected,” [Judith Collins, NALP’s director of research] said of the survey’s gloomy findings. “It’s probably going to continue, but we have no way to project how long and how severe the declines will be.”
/ wrists.
NALP: There Are Far Fewer Summer Associate Positions for 2Ls [TaxProf Blog]
2Ls seeing far fewer offers for summer associate positions [National Law Journal]
Perspectives on Fall 2008 Law Student Recruiting [NALP]
(231) 
Comments
Comments hidden for your protection. Show them anyway!
First Republican response!
UPENN STAAATE UPENN STATE UPENN STATE UPENN STAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATE
UPEN NSTATE UPENN STAAATE UPENN STATE UPENN STATE UPENN STAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATE
UPEN NSTATE UPENN STAAATE UPENN STATE UPENN STATE UPENN STAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATE
UPEN NSTATE UPENN STAAATE UPENN STATE UPENN STATE UPENN STAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATE
UPEN NSTATE
poopin in a hat.
LOL @ 2Ls with no job offer. Enjoy your lifetime of crushing debt.
This tells us nothing we didn't find out firsthand last fall.
OCEANS RISE
CITIES FALL
FEAST ON THE REMAINS
the wrist thing? kind of not funny.
LULZ MAO @ 2 OMG. Philly campus! Joe Pa is the dean!
this post is useless....2Ls are screwed, what about 3Ls still with no offer? what options do these really screwed ones have?
If you are not in a first tier school, you should seriously consider dropping out now.
"The night [you leave], you may feel a slight sting. That's pride fucking with you. Fuck pride. Pride only hurts, it never helps."
and why do law schools continue to increase the size of each incoming law school class?!?!
PONZI anyone???
right now, law firms are like overcrowded life boats. Throw off enough attorneys or the whole ship will sink, drowning everyone. How can these firms be expected to accept more dead weight? It ain't gonna happen because it simply can't work.
The market is merely reallocating douchebags to their proper place.
God Bless Capitalism!
God Bless America!
Anyone who's a 2L is already painfully aware of this.
Ellie, you are second on this: http://blackbooklegal.blogspot.com/2009/02/firms-giving-fewer-offers.html#comments
As I mentioned in the Latham post at roughly 223 thereabouts .......
I wuz gonna say, "the ship be sinking..."
but deze mo'fuckas ain't even gettin' to ride on da boat!
LOL ellie got scooped by a bunch of moron 2Ls hahahah
At least all 2Ls can rest assured that no matter what position they are in they are nowhere near as f*cked as White & Case 3Ls who are heading into the worst economy with a class size 3x the size of the previous year.
Those numbers are horrible. Offers down between 33 and 50%, acceptences slightly higher. Guess what happened to most of those students...
The breakdown by school will be interesting. With Harvard and Chicago unhappy about how recruiting went, you can just imagine what it was like for the rest of T1.
I'm a 3L at a 2nd tier school and I have no employment prospects whatsoever. I thought about dropping out, but decided instead to shell out another 19K just to finish what I started....can someone please hand me a razor. / ing wrists now.
this post is useless....2Ls are screwed, what about 3Ls still with no offer? what options do these really screwed ones have?
My screening interview was August 19th, and I haven't had a callback yet; do you think I may still hear from them? Give me some %s.
Thanks!
this post is useless....2Ls are screwed, what about 3Ls still with no offer? what options do these really screwed ones have?
Very glad to be a 2L headed to Skadden who expressed an interest in Restructuring last fall.
I wouldn't say Ellie got scooped; he just paralleled an earlier post -- which apparently has the same quote blocked
11% report shorter summers? People are being fired left and right, who gives a shit about 10% of summer programs being shorter?
I may have some openings for eager 2L's with solid grades and experience. This is only because I am such a nice guy, and also because my DeLorean won't wash itself.
25-
mere. semantics.
ATL needs to start a list of oversubscribed firms
My offer was revoked!!!
-Nervous T-10 1L
ATL needs to create a list of oversubscribed firms, ASAP
Yeah, all 2Ls have been told the size of their firms' summer programs. We should have an open forum to figure out which firms are effed in the A.
I here the Cochran firm is hiring.
Many who go to top 20 law schools do so under the dream to work in their interpretation of "big law." They want to make $160 th or so coming out of law school and expect they will work their ass off in pursuit of making the cut and ultimately being under consideration for partnership. Think about that for a moment. How many of us went to law school because we were introduced to the data summaries on the AmLaw 100/200 lists?!?
There will be books written about this someday. Poor dumb bastards all of us chasing some bizarre and disturbing dream of prosperity in the law profession.
Must suck being a 2L/3L with no job prospects.
I would say I feel for you, but I don't...and don't be mad at me, be mad at the stupid law schools that keep churning out lawyers into an already overcrowded market.
34...speak for yourself...i just want to help people find justice
2009 OCI is going to be worse.
So, what about 2Ls with summer offers at V10 firms (Latham is now V-a-billion, so forget them)? Are we really that screwed?
If you are a 2L splitting with the same firm but different offices when do you usually find out if you have received an offer/no offer from the first office? Is it at the end of your time at that office or do they wait until you have finished at the second office? Thanks
4,
If there is a just god in the afterlife, you will burn in hell. You probably don't have any 2L friends because you're an anti-social weirdo.
-3L with a federal clerkship
39, you get it (if you get it) at the end of the summer, at the same time as anyone else the firm might be giving offers to.
4 is a subhuman.
Why hire summer associates? Why spend 40K recruiting them? Wait and hire them, if necessary, as 3Ls. You don't think they will still take the jobs? You don't think they will still be available? You don't need to pay them as useless lunching interns anymore.
When Cravath skimps on bonus and Latham does layoffs, no more bullshit kids at TTT schools saying they are too good for V50.
Honestly, what 3L wouldn't take an offer at Latham or Cadwalader or Pillsbury or Paul Hastings now? Who is too good for a fucking JOB about now? You can't eat prestige and right now some 3Ls can't put food on the table.
40 - your credentials are embarrassing, please refrain from ever posting again.
- 3L with Supreme Court clerkship, 10 in. dong, baby blue eyes, mensa membership, 2 model girlfriends
34,
It's because of people like you that so many lawyers hate being lawyers: you're only in it for the money instead of the task at hand. You may make a buttload of money, but it won't be enough to make up for you hating your life.
ATL:
For the last time, please do a piece on law firms that are hiring. Would be a nice change of pace and informative. I know few are, but that is the point.
Thanks
43,
Firms hire summer associates as 2Ls to make sure they aren't complete fuckwits. A lot of people graduate from schools like HLS with passing grades but can't form a complete sentence. Just look at Elie.
No excuses, play like a champion
45 - all of these firms are in it for the money. why do you think all the overleveraged firms are canning associates now? ride them for profits on the way up, throw them overboard on the way down.
49
I didn't say firms shouldn't be in it solely for the money; I said attorneys shouldn't.
-45
The real question is what the offer rate in August/September is going to be. Considering how many firms were caught with their pants down thanks to the tanking economy and new NALP 45 day rule (i.e. with their classes full before they even did OCI at Harvard or Yale), as demonstrated by the soft rescinding of offers (the "please consider accepting somewhere else" letters and calls)
I want to have sex with 40.
(and his girlfriends).
Yeah, the / wrists thing is pretty fucking tasteless for the post author. Oh wait, I remember...suicide is funny. Ha ha. Douche.
47 - then maybe firms should do a more legitimate hiring process, as opposed to paying someone $30K to eat lunch?
It's not like they weed out most of the fuckwits anyway, particularly if they are top credentials from top school.
46 -- are you serious?
Hiring? In, like, America?
You're funny.
--Elie
UPennState is finished if this keeps up. The employment numbers for their satellite campus in Philly were already borderline for ABA accreditation. This will sink them for sure!
31, 32 - Maybe the problem is that 2Ls don't want to post their disturbing class sizes and have ATL confirm just how fucked they are?
I know that the emphasis is on the average dropping, but it's just sad that the median number of offers was 10 and the tenor is so inflammatory. Oh no, I only have 10 firms to choose from rather than 15!
People at my V30 would be thrilled to have the luxury of choosing between offers.
Most 2L's are too busy lying their butts off to their peers about where they are working or how many callbacks and offers they got, or how many people at their school got jobs.
Can we put that BS to rest now? It's okay to admit you didn't get a job. Really. It's not your fault either.
don't hate the playa, hate the game.
UPennState is finished if this keeps up. The employment numbers for their satellite campus in Philly were already borderline for ABA accreditation. This will sink them for sure!
The boat sank two years ago. I was unemployed for 13 months after the bar thanks to the sinking economy (May 07-Sept. 08)...thank god for prison.
Can somebody explain to me the UPenn State schtick?
Can somebody explain to me the UPenn State schtick?
Can somebody explain to me the UPenn State schtick?
58 is illiterate.
That's how many offers a firm gave, not how many a student got.
The best part is that this year's 2L's wil already be in the mid/small law niche when the economy recovers. So when the big firms start hiring again, it will be through OCI. So there is going to be a "lost generation" of about 2-3 years worth of law students that never had a chance.
I'm one of them!
2L here. Not going to out my firm until we get a full-blown open thread on this, but the firm-wide summer class is roughly 55% smaller and the main office summer class is 1/3 of what it was last summer.
Can somebody explain to me the UPenn State schtick?
2L summer programs should (i) be cut to 8 weeks, which is still plenty of time to get to know the people at the firm; (ii) not provide free $50+ lunches to summers, as they don't care to eat fancy lunches every fucking day ; and (iii) involve substantive work so that the firm can make an accurate assessment about the student's abilities.
There is A LOT of fat that can be cut by making the summer programs just a tad bit less excessive. Law students no longer need to be sold anything; a $3,000 per week paycheque will do all the selling.
The Market will Provide...
58 proves that V30 firms fail to weed out fuckwits over the summer.
7 is a tool. / wrists was a great line, good work Elie.
68 - Thanks. Vault range?
66, 58 here - umm...yeah....that was my point...
I'm an idiot.
10, unfortunately, is absolutely right. All joking aside, if you're a 1L, finish this semester (doing your absolute best), then leave law school for 3 years. Return in 2012. NO ONE will be giving offers this fall for summer 2010 clerkships.
If you're a 2L, see if you get any of your tuition back by taking an incomplete this semester (if you were really smart, you would have done this mid-January so that you wouldn't have an incomplete on your transcript--the writing was on the walls). Same advice as above.
You'll pray you had taken my advice.
74 - V40-60
46, the law firm of My, Balls & Shaft is hiring. We can only pay you in pearl necklesses
Well-played, 77. My V20 has the same class size as last year, and come August promises to be a cold-offer blood orgy.
My V10 still hasn't announced summer dates. It's making me antsy.
69 - UPenn State is not a "schtick", rather it is a third tier law school in Carlisle, PA, with an uppity satellite campus in philly that often tries to disassociate itself by dropping the "state" from its name (nobody buys it though).
78, that job sounds like a pain in the ass
82, it's not. It's a VERY small firm.
Thx., 78
69: What is there to explain? There is a poster here (see 2 and 61) who does not like the University of Pennsylvania School of Law, which is part of an Ivy League university in Philadelphia. In an effort to disparage the university, the poster refers to the school as "UPenn State", inviting confusion with the public school system in Pennsylvania, where the schools are called "Penn State."
If the poster had even a modicum of creativity, he would ask how the Nittany Lions at UPenn were doing. Or he would ask if there are good law firms in University Park for UPenn students.
Alas, the poster is dumbass who is likely graduating towards the bottom of his class at Penn, and resentful of the same.
In point of fact, UPenn is awesome. Benjamin Franklin laid more women than Mr. 2 could every dream. Furthermore, 2 is not housebroken.
80 - Give us a class size, relative last year.
84 - just because 2 peed on your rug doesn't mean he isn't housebroken.
My NYC V10 firm is keeping a twelve week program, and has reduced the summer class by 40 compared to last year. Offers for everyone!
85 -- Don't know class size, am a 2L.
55/Elie:
Yes, I am quite serious. I am at a V20 firm and have seen people move to other firms over the past few months. Few but some. Lovels IP department has hired some (first hand knowledge) as has Kasowitz (same), and Morvillo (same).
Moreover, Elie, I don't appreciate the sarcam. I stick up for you when posters refer to you as an ignorant fat a*s, so don't pony up up the attitude simply because the question posed actually asks you to do some real work aqnd not just rip off posts from other sites.
55/Elie:
Yes, I am quite serious. I am at a V20 firm and have seen people move to other firms over the past few months. Few but some. Lovels IP department has hired some (first hand knowledge) as has Kasowitz (same), and Morvillo (same).
Moreover, Elie, I don't appreciate the sarcam. I stick up for you when posters refer to you as an ignorant fat a*s, so don't pony up up the attitude simply because the question posed actually asks you to do some real work aqnd not just rip off posts from other sites.
55/Elie:
Yes, I am quite serious. I am at a V20 firm and have seen people move to other firms over the past few months. Few but some. Lovels IP department has hired some (first hand knowledge) as has Kasowitz (same), and Morvillo (same).
Moreover, Elie, I don't appreciate the sarcam. I stick up for you when posters refer to you as an ignorant fat a*s, so don't pony up up the attitude simply because the question posed actually asks you to do some real work aqnd not just rip off posts from other sites.
-46
84 = winner.
Of course, I am a Penn State U grad....
55/Elie:
Yes, I am quite serious. I am at a V20 firm and have seen people move to other firms over the past few months. Few but some. Lovels IP department has hired some (first hand knowledge) as has Kasowitz (same), and Morvillo (same).
Moreover, Elie, I don't appreciate the sarcam. I stick up for you when posters refer to you as an ignorant fat a*s, so don't pony up up the attitude simply because the question posed actually asks you to do some real work aqnd not just rip off posts from other sites.
-46
55/Elie:
Yes, I am quite serious. I am at a V20 firm and have seen people move to other firms over the past few months. Few but some. Lovels IP department has hired some (first hand knowledge) as has Kasowitz (same), and Morvillo (same).
Moreover, Elie, I don't appreciate the sarcam. I stick up for you when posters refer to you as an ignorant fat a*s, so don't pony up the attitude simply because the question posed actually asks you to do some real work and not just rip off posts from other sites.
-46
55/Elie:
Yes, I am quite serious. I am at a V20 firm and have seen people move to other firms over the past few months. Few but some. Lovels IP department has hired some (first hand knowledge) as has Kasowitz (same), and Morvillo (same).
Moreover, Elie, I don't appreciate the sarcam. I stick up for you when posters refer to you as an ignorant fat a*s, so don't pony up the attitude simply because the question posed actually asks you to do some real work and not just rip off posts from other sites.
-46
55/Elie:
Yes, I am quite serious. I am at a V20 firm and have seen people move to other firms over the past few months. Few but some. Lovels IP department has hired some (first hand knowledge) as has Kasowitz (same), and Morvillo (same).
Moreover, Elie, I don't appreciate the sarcam. I stick up for you when posters refer to you as an ignorant fat a*s, so don't pony up the attitude simply because the question posed actually asks you to do some real work and not just rip off posts from other sites.
-46
55/Elie:
Yes, I am quite serious. I am at a V20 firm and have seen people move to other firms over the past few months. Few but some. Lovels IP department has hired some (first hand knowledge) as has Kasowitz (same), and Morvillo (same).
Moreover, Elie, I don't appreciate the sarcam. I stick up for you when posters refer to you as an ignorant fat a*s, so don't pony up the attitude simply because the question posed actually asks you to do some real work and not just rip off posts from other sites.
-46
55/Elie:
Yes, I am quite serious. I am at a V20 firm and have seen people move to other firms over the past few months. Few but some. Lovels IP department has hired some (first hand knowledge) as has Kasowitz (same), and Morvillo (same).
Moreover, Elie, I don't appreciate the sarcam. I stick up for you when posters refer to you as an ignorant fat a*s, so don't pony up the attitude simply because the question posed actually asks you to do some real work and not just rip off posts from other sites.
-46
55/Elie:
Yes, I am quite serious. I am at a V20 firm and have seen people move to other firms over the past few months. Few but some. Lovels IP department has hired some (first hand knowledge) as has Kasowitz (same), and Morvillo (same).
Moreover, Elie, I don't appreciate the sarcam. I stick up for you when posters refer to you as an ignorant fat a*s, so don't pony up the attitude simply because the question posed actually asks you to do some real work and not just rip off posts from other sites.
-46
Execute 89-96
Does anyone know if 46 is serious?
89-96 - We get the point. Stop multiposting like an ignorant fat a*s.
AAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
46 got her feelings hurt :'(
UPennState is finished if this keeps up. The employment numbers for their satellite campus in Philly were already borderline for ABA accreditation. This will sink them for sure!
UPennState is finished if this keeps up. The employment numbers for their satellite campus in Philly were already borderline for ABA accreditation. This will sink them for sure!
UPennState is finished if this keeps up. The employment numbers for their satellite campus in Philly were already borderline for ABA accreditation. This will sink them for sure!
How long before firms start inviting 2L's for unpaid summer internships? Or even start charging 2L's for summer apprenticeships?
FYI - the navy is hiring sailors. Free inside cabin shared with geographically diverse cabinmates on round the world cruise, all meals and non-alcoholic beverages included, no gratuities required.
Have no idea if 46 is serious but it is a reasonable Q. S/he should learn how to post, but still, the point is worth making. Out of all the pot shots people take on Elie, why did Elie choose 46 for sarcasm. Obviously, not EVERY laid off attorney is still looking for a job. Some may have ended up on their feet. How would Elie know unless he investigates.
-Not 46
You guys do realize that the streets of Manhattan are FLOODED with experienced, recently laid off attorneys who wouldn't actually need to be trained or coddled upon hiring? Let's see, which of these would I rather do: Recruit a 2L, pay them $30K to eat lunch and watch other people work for a summer, wait a year, then bring them on to do no work and have to train them on everything from how to use a photocopier to why it is that NY Court of Appeals cases carry more weight than NY Supreme Court cases... Or hire somebody RIGHT NOW who actually has a year or two of experience and knows what they're about.
Hm...
You guys do realize that the streets of Manhattan are FLOODED with experienced, recently laid off attorneys who wouldn't actually need to be trained or coddled upon hiring? Let's see, which of these would I rather do: Recruit a 2L, pay them $30K to eat lunch and watch other people work for a summer, wait a year, then bring them on to do no work and have to train them on everything from how to use a photocopier to why it is that NY Court of Appeals cases carry more weight than NY Supreme Court cases... Or hire somebody RIGHT NOW who actually has a year or two of experience and knows what they're about.
Hm...
UPennState is finished if this keeps up. The employment numbers for their satellite campus in Philly were already borderline for ABA accreditation. This will sink them for sure!
UPennState is finished if this keeps up. The employment numbers for their satellite campus in Philly were already borderline for ABA accreditation. This will sink them for sure!
UPennState is finished if this keeps up. The employment numbers for their satellite campus in Philly were already borderline for ABA accreditation. This will sink them for sure!
107 - you're wrong. Every single one of them is still looking for a job.
109, yeah but a summer getting drunk and sleeping with me is the ONLY action I get all year...
111:
Am at a large firm that has conducted open layoffs. Of those laid off, some landed at other large firms while others went into government or are still looking.
-107
2L here at main office of a V20-40. Class reduced by a 1/3 from 2008's.
111:
Am at a large firm that has conducted open layoffs. Of those laid off, some landed at other large firms while others went into government or are still looking.
-107
All 2L's are screwed!! Good luck working for your local public defender.
Ah, shaddup and get over it 46/107. Baby.
Get over what?
Why is it so difficult for some on this site to understand that people can agree? Just because posters agree with each other, does not make them the same person. Smarten up, 117, you can do better than that.
-107
Here's an idea: How about 2Ls try hustling for work rather than waiting for employers to come to them? Believe it or not, most lawyers don't work at BigLaw firms or firms that subscribe/submit info the NALP. If the past year hasn't taught you anything, it should have taught you that BigLaw sucks.
Seriously. If I could do it all over again, I would have found a boutique in my practice area and offered to work there for free during the summers. Would it suck to give up the income and excuse yourself from "I'm more prestigious than you!" battles? Probably. But when your V10 friends are hiding under their desks and stealing hours from each other, then you'd be happy. You'd also being going home at a reasonable hour and doing more than document review and memos as a junior associate.
118 is wrong!!!!
I guess that means I am not 118?
2L going to a V20 this summer. Pretty sure my incoming class is 40% larger than last year's.
How are any of you without jobs going to pay off your loans? Seriously. How is it even possible?
109: nobody cares what you would do. The lateral market is dead, and some summers will still get offers.
118 - Hail, my 3L OCI => Unemployment brethren!
122 - It's not. That's why job loss usually results in foreclosure. Student loans are about the size of a decent mortgage.
Unfortunately, student loans have zero collateral and are not dischargable.
2L going to V10 this summer. Same size as last year.
2L Here: At a V20 - 30, and we have 190-200 summers in our class. That must be an increase.
I heard that Mayer Brown's incoming summer class is approx. 60% of last year's.
Can someone confirm when the new data goes up on NALP as far as individual firms? Right now everything is current as of Feb. 2008.
When you post repeatedly about the same non-issue, it cerrtainly suggests that (1) you either the same person or (2) equally idiotic to the sock puppet you're supporting. Either you (both, all) need to get over it.
To all those 1Ls at non t30 schools staring down the barrel of $100,000+ in loans: look at the NLJ's "Go To Schools" list, the numbers don't lie. You MUST play the odds and TRANSFER this summer. Face it, it is more important than ever to have a top tier degree. OCI this fall will be brutal and you need every advantage you can get. This holds true not only for those interested in BigLaw. The competition will be tougher regionally as well, since people with top tier degrees will be forced to cast a wider net and there are, unfortunately, a lot of excellent lawyers who have been laid off and are looking for jobs. You owe it to yourself to put yourself in the best position possible for success, especially given the money you are spending. Transfer!!!
Cry me a river, so this means that clueless summer associates will no longer be grotesquely overpaid for doing admin level work (and eating $50 lunches) as prep for an equally “challenging” full-time position where they will be even more grotesquely overpaid, just to have 50% freak out and leave the firm 2 years later…
To all those 1Ls at non t30 schools staring down the barrel of $100,000+ in loans: look at the NLJ's "Go To Schools" list, the numbers don't lie. You MUST play the odds and TRANSFER this summer. Face it, it is more important than ever to have a top tier degree. OCI this fall will be brutal and you need every advantage you can get. This holds true not only for those interested in BigLaw. The competition will be tougher regionally as well, since people with top tier degrees will be forced to cast a wider net and there are, unfortunately, a lot of excellent lawyers who have been laid off and are looking for jobs. You owe it to yourself to put yourself in the best position possible for success, especially given the money you are spending. Transfer!!!
122 -- You do what you can. I didn't get a Biglaw job from my non-T14 T1 school when I graduated eight or nine years ago, and so first I put my loans in deferrment while I found a job, and then, when I did find a job paying $36K / year, I paid more than half my take-home to make the minimum payments on the loans. It's doable, just not particularly attractive.
As a 2L with an offer from CSM, all I can say is...
THIS IS EXCELLENT NEWS FOR JOHN MCCAIN!
130/132 is right. The law school business is one of the largest scams in academia--but there is a way to improve your odds--transfer to a T10 (or at the very least T20) school.
If you're in a school that is ranked worse than 25 on the US News and World Report rankings, definitely take 76's advice.
I'm at Brigham Young University. Am I totally f*ckt?
136, most definitely. Pretty sure the market is not entirely to blame for your lack of job prospects.
Sorry, but true.
135.
136 is lying. A BYU student would have said, "Am I flippin muffed?"
136--
Yes, but not in the good way with multiple wives.
michael ray richardson finally made me laugh.
2L going to a V20. 2009 summer class is about the same size as 2008 class.
If your on a full ride and only going to have 30K in living loans, isnt it better than not getting a job period in this shitty economy and thinking of a way to hide your T50 degree when applying to nonlegal employers in 2010/2011
Wow, 133, that is a tough story. I hope that your situation has since improved and that you are prospering. I just hope that the day soon comes where the law schools, the student loan industry, and, frankly, the Congress are called out for engineering such a predatory system. I'm not suggesting that it's a conspiracy, but I think that soon enough there will be a critical mass of people whose lives have been sufficiently derailed and whose thoughts are haunted by these debts that they will demand better consumer protections for these loans. For example, I read that it is not possible to refinance student loans after an initial consolidation, likewise, it can be very difficult to obtain temporary relief when hard times roll around. I have yet to begin paying back my loans, but I'm already losing sleep over them and I'm fortunate enough to have a job (at least for now).
Kent Brockman: Professor, without knowing precisely what the danger is, would you say it's time for our viewers to crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?
Professor: Yes I would, Kent.
Good point 136. I should not have drawn that totally artificial line in the sand, still, this is ATL and such things seem to matter around here. Anyway, I think the multiple NLJ articles on the topic speak for themselves. Hopefully Heavenly Father will forgive my arbitrariness. I think you get what I mean though-- transferring is an option that people must consider seriously if they want to improve the odds. Now, excuse me as I return to family home evening.
130/132
The lateral market may be dead, but I know two transactional friends who survived by jumping on that in-house job before the axe dropped. Three or four 100-hour months was enough for them.... Just a thought. Only really works if you're fourth-year or above though.
136 - You were dry f'd before the economy went to sh**!
Do summer associates who attend T10 law schools stand a better chance of receiving a full time offer?
136 - You should consider going to a "reeducation" camp to reverse the lack of intelligence you were born with. That might improve job prospects. I hear you guys are great at "reeducating."
148--I've been wondering that too. Obviously I don't know what the story will be with offers this summer, but I do think that there is an argument that firms spend a lot of time and money developing relationships with key feeder schools and they likely would not want to jeopardize those investments/relationships. Juxtapose this with firms that simply "collect" resumes at certain schools or conduct OCI and take only one or two of that school's students per year. It might be less "costly" long-term to piss off the latter. Likewise, firms that have lots lawyers, particularly partners, who are alums of certain schools might be more inclined to protect those schools should the offer rate drop this summer. Then again, I'm sure there is compelling argument that says I'm wrong (anyone???). One thing is for sure...we'll all find out soon enough.
130
2L at V30. class is 25% smaller. I'm glad.
143:
Yes... but still cast the net far and wide. I hope that you are seriously not considering only non-legal jobs. Kind of makes going to law school on a full ride pointless, IMO.
148 - Yes. Law students that attend T10 law schools should never worry about anything related to law firm employment. You have the golden ticket. In fact, nearly every single partner at V100 firms holds a degree from a T10 law school. Just do the research. T10 law school = Excellent attorney. No exceptions.
I'd say good luck, but you don't need any luck.
By the way, go f*ck yourself.
and this huge drop in the overall stats all occurred b/c of last couple months of recruiting, after firms went from "everything's OK" to "oh shit" 3/4 of the way through the 2L recruiting season.
Even if the market rebounds a little (yeah, right), chances are the #s will go down more next year because firms will be recruiting the full year with more accurate legal market projections
@ 148, 150:
I love how law students - for some unknown reason - develop the idea in their heads that firms live and die by recruiting law students (i.e. "consider" how to navigate OCI so as to not "piss off" certain "feeder" schools). Right now, law firms couldn't give two sh*ts about the summer class, 3Ls, 2Ls or "feeder schools." Honestly, at a time like this, it'd be better if law students and summer associates didn't exist.
Partners worry about client development, client retention etc. They don't spend much time thinking about whether they ding someone from a "collect" school or a T10 school.
Figure it out.
-Partner that hates this site, but can't stop reading this sh*t.
2L going to V50, our class is about 50-60% of last year's.
148, how is anyone supposed to answer that? When's the last time the entire corporate finance system melted down?
Of course, you, being a T10 law student, knows absolutely nothing about why capital markets impact the level of corporate work.
108: your logic is flawed for many reasons. First, there is a presumption that those that are laid off are not the best associates. Second, why the fuck would say Cravath hire someone who got laid off from Mayer Brown and pay them like a 3rd year? Just because they have "experience".
Why are so many people assuming that 148 goes to a T10 school? Maybe he implied it, but I didn't assume that when I read it.
I hope you change your mind about being a lawyer and consider becoming a community organizer.
- BHO
155 - Get back to work before your fellow partners can your ass.
Implied 159, or implode?
155 speaks the truth. Partners don't care about associates or law students. We are going to enter a terrible profession with tons of debt.
148: Going to a T10 basically means you will always be able to get somebody to pick up the phone, but that is about it. The T10 degree means people will assume you are smart, hard working person with a lot of potential; however, people from T10 are fully capable of blowing that assumption to their disadvantage.
In my summer class last year, only 2 people did not get offers that I am aware of and both were from T10 schools. I am not sure why they ultimately did not receive offers, but they were known in the summer class for speaking with associates and partners in an unprofessional manner.
FYI: The other really great way to get a no offer is to tell any partner or anyone in HR that you are really only interested in practice group x. I highly recommend not doing that, as the process of being selected/selecting a group is competitive. Once again, being from a T10 school gives an advantage in this area, but it alone will most likely not be determinative.
139 and 149--please don't tell me you practice law with the same lack of understanding in which you comment on religion.
When a poor schmuck from BYU exercises poor judgment by revealing his/her lack of job prospects on this board, there are MUCH wittier ways to poke fun. Follow 145's lead, for example.
If the comments you shared are the wittiest things you could come up with on the fly, I'd be concerned with your job prospects as well.
165--Amen
poor byu schmuck
166 LOL
155--Well, I guess that's part of the other side of the argument. Law students care about getting hired for the same reason that partners care about client development--survival. That really surprises you? Regardless of your evident disinterest, should there be an increase in no-offers this summer it will still be interesting for some people to see if there is any discrimination between "collect" schools and T10, not because of a sense of entitlement or a sense that the legal world revolves around law students--obviously it does not--but because, like it or not, these kinds of questions matter both to some people in law school and to some future law students deciding where to go (and invest over $100000). Also, while you may justly not spend much time thinking about who you'd like to "ding," which, in any case, you likely do not have the outright authority to do, I do not believe for a minute that your colleagues on the hiring committee or the professionals in your firm's recruiting departments are so cavalier. In many cases they have spent years developing and tending to relationships with law schools, from which you yourself might have benefited at one point, and should firms be faced with the reality of no-offering students this summer, I believe these relationship might play a role in their decisions. That's how I figure it.
Honestly, I heard that the 2L pool is just much less qualified than 2L pools from previous years. I don't think the economic situation is to blame.
169, thanks for sharing your opinion on how the current 40,000 2Ls stack up to the 40,000 2ls of years past. Also, please think whoever did that research.
2L here going to a V30 firm this Summer.... Summer class is 65% smaller than last Summers'. I'm really happy my firm did their homework.
Headed to a V10 where the summer class in my office is 50% less than last year.
2L going to a V50 firm. Summer class is 33% larger than last summer.
Time to scrap the NALP guidelines and summer associate programs entirely. The current situation requires firms to forecast their employment needs more than two years in advance. That's hard for anyone to do, much less the piss-poor BigLaw managers.
Nope, time to adopt the BigBusiness model and go with low-to-minimally-paid internships. Instead of wooing associates with lavish summer programs, recruit them with (a) job security and (b) a big fat signing bonus.
158, there's a presumption that the people who got laid off weren't quite as busy or, in fairness, weren't quite as good as those who didn't get laid off. In this economy, there's no presumption that they were bad lawyers.
And you got the question wrong. The question isn't "why would Cravath hire a laid off Mayer Brown 3rd year and pay them like a 3rd year," it's "why wouldn't Cravath hire a laid off Mayer Brown 3rd year and pay them like a 1st year?" You think the Mayer Brown guy would bitch about taking a pay cut when he could get a job? Any job?
I've had first years laid off from V20 firms submit resumes to me for paralegal positions. PARALEGAL POSITIONS! The market isn't what you think it is.
108, 109
2L going to V10 firm where this year's summer class is about 30% smaller than the 2007 figures listed on NALP.
3L headed to V20, summer class was 300% of last year.
The education bubble continues its rupture. For a preview on the legal education biz bust up read about the Silver State Helicopter debacle. Way more helicopter pilots being trained than could ever be employed. Way more lawyers being matriculated than can ever be put to good use. The result's the same too - lots of students with massive loans, lost time, dashed dreams, starting over. It's sad.
Why do people say it is harsh to fire first years rather than more senior associates? Sure it is hard for anyone to get fired, but I think it is more harsh to fire someone who has given years of loyalty to a firm.
When will the new NALP charts be published?
QUINN REMAINS
are there 2008 summer class size lists anywhere?
@178 That's NOT an accurate comparison.
@179 Loyalty is a disease of the dogs
@2L's You're not screwed, it's just more competitive
This would never happen to a UVA grad. Too solid of a foundation.
150 -- You might as well argue that firms want diversity. V10 firms all have their fair share of YHSCCN students. They may prefer to keep the three or four Brooklyn top-of-the-class grads who actually perform rather than the bottom Harvard guy.
-- a YHSCCN student
2L SA at the regional office of a V 40-60. When I asked about summer start dates, they told me that the national office would be in touch shortly, then they would release more information on their summer program. Not sure if it's me being paranoid, but that sounds a little off. Any thoughts?
at my v10 our office had only 2 no-offers, both from T6 schools.
So no, being a T10 student doesn't protect you. You're all on an even playing field in the summer, so work hard and be professional.
155 - I spend a great deal of time worrying about how best to recruit fresh young talent.
Love,
Mrs. Robinson
160 - I can't become a community organizer . . . I don't know how b/c I didn't go to Harvard.
2Ls without jobs are fandangoed in their mandingos.
187 - What type of TTTV10 no offers?
188, Do you want to go home or go to jail?
46, 89-99, you really want ATL to post about the (few) firms that are hiring? Why, so everyone can send their resume and you have less of a chance of getting hired there? Why not try to make personal contacts instead, have the people who are listed under your references call people at firms, go on "informational meetings", etc. I don't understand what good would come from firms who might be hiring a few attorneys being inundated with random resumes.
Is it better to be in the Top 5% of a T20, or should that person transfer and try to get into a T10?
-Curious 1L
Externing for a federal district judge this summer, hopefully they aren't firing judges soon. But in this economy, who knows.
194 -- Hard to say. 2L from a T30 here, was top 15% of my class and still got a job at a V10 for this summer.
QUINN REMAINS
QUINN REMAINS
QUINN REMAINS
QUINN REMAINS
QUINN REMAINS
QUINN REMAINS
I have an idea: let's lobby Congress for some of that sweet bailout money so we can all save our jobs. I'm sure this would be a hit politically. The only thing people love more than Wall Street types, is lawyers.
On a serious note: can all the posters who love to hate on people that just got fired or had their offers revoked, please go / your wrists. Your BS "serves you right" atitude is less than ideal. It sucks for everyone, dont be a douche. You know if you could have you would have taken the same job if offered to you.
Also, can someone explain more how this affects students going to UPenn State, I heard that they might lose their accredidation. Is this really true?
XOXO
Bitter 3L in Big Firm Limbo (hoping for Feb 2010 start date and job at Applebees for 6 months)
I have an idea: let's lobby Congress for some of that sweet bailout money so we can all save our jobs. I'm sure this would be a hit politically. The only thing people love more than Wall Street types, is lawyers.
On a serious note: can all the posters who love to hate on people that just got fired or had their offers revoked, please go / your wrists. Your BS "serves you right" atitude is less than ideal. It sucks for everyone, dont be a douche. You know if you could have you would have taken the same job if offered to you.
Also, can someone explain more how this affects students going to UPenn State, I heard that they might lose their accredidation. Is this really true?
XOXO
Bitter 3L in Big Firm Limbo (hoping for Feb 2010 start date and job at Applebees for 6 months)
King Lear:
Quinn, behind: "homina, homina homina homina, homina
#196, in front, on hands and knees: "Oh! I hurts so good! Drive it home big daddy!! You're soooo big!!! Make me your naughty little associate biatch slave!!!
The rest of us: "Suin's just another word for, nuthin' left to lose, nothin', I mean nuthin' honey if it ain't free..."
For a GOOOOOD time call Amanda Becker at 213-229-5303.
law students are douchebags. big deal.
The new NALP forms should be up by April
The new NALP forms should be up by April
king & spalding is revoking offers to 2Ls
UPennState is finished if this keeps up. The employment numbers for their satellite campus in Philly were already borderline for ABA accreditation. This will sink them for sure!
204 - details?
there are, unfortunately, a lot of excellent lawyers who have been laid off and are looking for jobs.
__________________________________________
Nonsense--everyone laid off has been a poor performer or from a TTT firm!
Curious 1L-I am a 2L at HYS and transferred from a T25 law school. It was the best thing I could have done for myself and had my choice of the V10 for this summer. I highly recommend that if you can transfer to HYSCN you do it.
Lol!!! This is why we are moving back in with his parents! He's definitely going to get laid off within a year and we will be Screwed! How silly are these 3L's looking for an APT in nyc right now. Last thing you need to be doing is spending $3000 per month on rent when you should be paying loans!
-Wife of a 3L with a job offer at a top firm.
"time to adopt the BigBusiness model"
Because that's working soooo well.
Lol!!! This is why we are moving back in with his parents! He's definitely going to get laid off within a year and we will be Screwed! How silly are these 3L's looking for an APT in nyc right now. Last thing you need to be doing is spending $3000 per month on rent when you should be paying loans!
-Wife of a 3L with a job offer at a top firm.
Lol!!! This is why we are moving back in with his parents! He's definitely going to get laid off within a year and we will be Screwed! How silly are these 3L's looking for an APT in nyc right now. Last thing you need to be doing is spending $3000 per month on rent when you should be paying loans!
-Wife of a 3L with a job offer at a top firm.
Lol!!! This is why we are moving back in with his parents! He's definitely going to get laid off within a year and we will be Screwed! How silly are these 3L's looking for an APT in nyc right now. Last thing you need to be doing is spending $3000 per month on rent when you should be paying loans!
-Wife of a 3L with a job offer at a top firm.
Lol!!! This is why we are moving back in with his parents! He's definitely going to get laid off within a year and we will be Screwed! How silly are these 3L's looking for an APT in nyc right now. Last thing you need to be doing is spending $3000 per month on rent when you should be paying loans!
-Wife of a 3L with a job offer at a top firm.
I call shenanigans on 204's post.
There are a lot of summer associate slots that are going to be cancelled in the next few weeks, and SAs getting actual offers will be only around 50%. Best way to stand out: OFFER TO PICKUP THE CHECK IF INVITED TO DINE WITH A PARTNER OR EVEN A SENIOR ASSOCIATE. You will be remembered.
Free advice for new law school grads: go to work for a small firm that pays peanuts, stay just long enough to learn how to manage a particular type of case (bankruptcy, divorce, small commercial disputes, etc.)from start to finish, then leave and start you own practice. Most of you could be up and running in your own firm in less than a year after graduation. Within three years you'll be making as much (or more) as a fourth-year associate at a large NYC firm. Your upside is unlimited, you are your own boss, etc.
As a 2L, I cannot help but think: this is not what I signed up for.
We 3L's won't even have a chance to prove ourselves. Our careers will be ruined before they even get started. At least you 2L's have a year to wait out this economy. We 3L's are going to be 'starting' during the worst of it.
Government is my only hope. Anyone have a good website with government job listings? Seriously.
We 3L's won't even have a chance to prove ourselves. Our careers will be ruined before they even get started. At least you 2L's have a year to wait out this economy. We 3L's are going to be 'starting' during the worst of it.
Government is my only hope. Anyone have a good website with government job listings? Seriously.
Don't lose your sense of perspective just because times are hard.
Much depends upon future economic developments. If the economy recovers, so will law firm recruiting, although there may be a lag of a year or two before firms feel sufficiently confident in the staying power of the economic recovery to restore their recruitment offers to prior levels. Even if the economy does not recover, law firms will still have some need to replenish their ranks from time to time, so there may still be some job offers to law students, although they will probably be fewer and farther between than they are now.
Current uncertainties apply across the board, and are not limited to those at mid-ranked schools. I spoke last evening with a 2L who is a law review editor at an HYS school, received multiple summer offers, accepted one of them, and promptly declined the others so that those could go to other 2Ls. The firm made many fewer summer offers than it had in prior years, and subsequently laid off a number of associates and staff, but confirmed that the summer offers it had made were still valid. That 2L has strong credentials, and a job for the coming summer, but the broader situation is not especially reassuring, and that individual faces some of the same concerns and uncertainties as others posting comments on this thread.
These are hard times, and there is considerably more competition and uncertainty than there has been in the past, even for students with strong credentials at top schools. That does not mean that the world has ended, however. Students should not drop out of school, abandon hope, or contemplate suicide. Students should, instead, work as hard as possible, learn as much as possible, conduct themselves in a mature and professional manner in any 2L summer jobs they are fortunate enough to receive, and prepare themselves to face a more arduous 3L job search process than their predecessors enjoyed just a couple of years ago.
Those who succeed will do so because they stay focused, work hard, don't assume that anybody owes them anything, and refuse to give up, even in difficult circumstances.
Doing those things will not guarantee success in hard times. Some of those who fail will do so despite efforts that would have assured success in easier times. Simply put, life is not fair.
Those who give up and drop out of school, or who get so discouraged that they no longer bother to study hard or work hard at jobs, will not succeed.
Making one's life count means far more than drawing a large salary at a prestigious firm. Many of those who get jobs at large corporate firms will do little more than make money, will contribute little of value to their families or society, and will be miserable people despite their incomes. Many of those who do not get such jobs will nonetheless find ways to enrich their families and society, morally as well as financially, and will make their lives valuable to others as well as themselves.
Don't lose your sense of perspective just because times are hard.
Much depends upon future economic developments. If the economy recovers, so will law firm recruiting, although there may be a lag of a year or two before firms feel sufficiently confident in the staying power of the economic recovery to restore their recruitment offers to prior levels. Even if the economy does not recover, law firms will still have some need to replenish their ranks from time to time, so there may still be some job offers to law students, although they will probably be fewer and farther between than they are now.
Current uncertainties apply across the board, and are not limited to those at mid-ranked schools. I spoke last evening with a 2L who is a law review editor at an HYS school, received multiple summer offers, accepted one of them, and promptly declined the others so that those could go to other 2Ls. The firm made many fewer summer offers than it had in prior years, and subsequently laid off a number of associates and staff, but confirmed that the summer offers it had made were still valid. That 2L has strong credentials, and a job for the coming summer, but the broader situation is not especially reassuring, and that individual faces some of the same concerns and uncertainties as others posting comments on this thread.
These are hard times, and there is considerably more competition and uncertainty than there has been in the past, even for students with strong credentials at top schools. That does not mean that the world has ended, however. Students should not drop out of school, abandon hope, or contemplate suicide. Students should, instead, work as hard as possible, learn as much as possible, conduct themselves in a mature and professional manner in any 2L summer jobs they are fortunate enough to receive, and prepare themselves to face a more arduous 3L job search process than their predecessors enjoyed just a couple of years ago.
Those who succeed will do so because they stay focused, work hard, don't assume that anybody owes them anything, and refuse to give up, even in difficult circumstances.
Doing those things will not guarantee success in hard times. Some of those who fail will do so despite efforts that would have assured success in easier times. Simply put, life is not fair.
Those who give up and drop out of school, or who get so discouraged that they no longer bother to study hard or work hard at jobs, will not succeed.
Making one's life count means far more than drawing a large salary at a prestigious firm. Many of those who get jobs at large corporate firms will do little more than make money, will contribute little of value to their families or society, and will be miserable people despite their incomes. Many of those who do not get such jobs will nonetheless find ways to enrich their families and society, morally as well as financially, and will make their lives valuable to others as well as themselves.
"the median number of summer associate offers fell . . . to 18.5"
Really, the MEDIAN was 18.5? which law school did the half-summer go to?
Elie, here's my problem with this thread: it attracts more law students to this site.
2L going to a NYC V50 firm with a 2009 SA class 65% smaller than last year. During recruiting they said they wanted to ensure offers for all SA's and anticipated reducing the class size because of the economy.
Wow. I am not a lawyer but I started reading this board after my husband's firm did a massive lay off - he survived but salary cuts have been promised. I would be scared too if I had those student loans. We only paid off ours about 8 years ago - and it was daunting.
Big Law is helpful for getting rid of loans. Many of his friends from the NY area bunked back with mom ad dad just to get rid of them so they could go on to a better place quickly. Most realized early on that it was hard to make partner (everybody leaves thinking they are going to but soon you find that some are rainmakers and others are worker bees (I owned a worker bee), you get hired at the wrong place and the wrong time his second firm - which he stayed at for 8 years had boasted when he was hired of their high number of senior associates that had made partners). So it shouldn't have been a surprise that no one else made partner for the next 8 years except for a lawyer whose parents were Asian missionaries. Their Asian Rim work was growing and he was fluent in Japanese and Chinese. Though my husband was well known for his speciality, that particular field has dried up for the time being and only a little work in that area comes his way so in the end you need to develop a broad base of skills to survive. He is grateful that his mentors exposed him to several areas - and hopes that having several skill sets will keep him employed. By the time he had hit his third firm (with a promise of partnership in the next year or two) they merged with a giant firm- killing off that prospect. But though a lot of people said crap about said firm after the lay offs, he actually turned down more money to stay with them. They were the first firm that understood you could be a lawyer and have a family. It was the first firm he actually thought about spending the rest of his career with.
Most people hate Big Law. It amazes me about how knowledgeable everyone is on this board about life in Big Law. I have watched a man live it for 20 years, with its ups and downs and it is nothing like law students describe it. And back then it didn't come with gigantic first year salaries that you guys get- though I think he wracked up about 85K in law school debt. He turned down an Ivy League undergrad and went to a state school so he could afford a good law school. Law school was easy and fun compared to life at a big firm when the economy was in full gear. Still, he actually loves it.
He came with a wife who didn't complain when their honeymoon was cancelled by a major bankruptcy, late picking me up after surgery because a client needed him, when he stepped by for 20 minutes to see the birth of his third child (mom had to sneak out of hospital to buy a car seat and cabbed it home with kid alone), and made it at the last minute for every anniversary dinner (we were married on New Year's Eve) because of those pesky last quarter filings. He really loves his job.
1) What would happen if all the non-employed law students filed for bankruptcies at once - would the character judges have to be more forgiving?
2) My husband was hired during the last recession in the early 90's. He went to a top 10 - only the top 2/3 of his class had job offers. He ctually thinks to many lawyers at mediocre school wanted to do Big Law have been produced of late. He blames the middle ranked schools and their tuitions for this mess. His friend, who is a law professor at Hofstra, thinks they should refund tuition to all those who can't get a job after law school.
After graduation he went to DP. They were pretty selective about who came in the door. 56 came in - and only 4 were left four years later. The partners definitely favored their alma maters. It was rare to find a lawyer who had not graduated from Harvard, Yale or U of M in those days. They fired people really nicely - you basically had a year to clear out - they would just decrease your salary every couple of months. Of the 4 first years who remained by year 3, 2 switched firms (the hours were brutal) and the other 2 became partners. It was tough even then to stay alive at DP. It was just less brutal and no one was technically fired. Will these firms continue such a nice policy? The lesson to be learned is that if you get hired, and you are really talented, you will probably keep your job at a Big Law. The trick is getting in the door. showing off your brilliance (having a math major really helped in corporate finance - my husband is surprised how many "Ivy" league grads can't do a simple rte of return formula these days) and getting noticed.
3) The best thing about being hired during the recession? You were actually mentored. By the time he was a senior associate everything was so crazy that he wasn't even allowed to take the summer associates to lunch. DP partners took the time to train him to be an excellent lawyer. He feels sorry for many of the recently laid off lawyers - many of them were shoved into one type of work (think Caldwalder) and never learned to do anything else. Because of them, he had an amazing skill set. So for those that get a job it could be a lucky time for them. I even yelled at him to take the surviving first year in his department under his wing - she is going to need that extra support right now.
4) If you do get a job - look busy and stay late until the senior associate/partner tells you to go. One first year that got the boot thought that since there was no work crossing his desk he could skip out at 4:30. Though he wwas a good lawyer, his attitude was not appreciated. especially by the senior associates/counsels who were sitting at their desk waiting to see if there was some last minute call. Many of the other first years were skipping out at 5 or 6. One did not. She is known now as face-time girl. She just sat and sat - sometimes until 8. But she was there when the partners/associates called. At 160K , you don't get to leave at 4:30 - learn to look busy. If the associate/counsel/partner that you are working for is there - you sit there too unless they tell you to go home. And no, as far as he knows, no one is stealing doc review from first years. But he did end up doing some first year crap because he couldn't find a first year to do it after 6:00 (except for face-time girl). It wouldn't have saved all of them - but she was the only one who survived. She was also the only one who showed up to do a silly volunteer project that a senior partner volunteered corporate for. He had made it clear that they should all be there and that he was driving back from the Hamptons to do this. To be fair, it was a couple of weeks before the first years arrived and she was already in NY. It was basically a home improvement project for a charity, she came and pulled out a hammer with the rest of them. Half of the department arrived but she was the only incoming first year who was there. There were fewer ways to get to know the partners, and there being a work shortage doesn't help, in an informal setting. A day of sweat and charity was a great way to be noticed. He thinks all the second years (a hard working group) survived.
5) Stop yelling at the partners and counsels for not getting off their asses and finding new business. It is not for lack of trying. It is hard to find new clients. My husband lucked out with some new ones (mostly because he has some odd set skills). THERE IS NO BUSINESS RIGHT NOW. It wasn't have this bad during the 90's. Billables are down all over. The ABA just did a whole issue comparing the entire cycle to the early 90s. The 90's were kinder.
6) When I asked him about some of the comments on this board - like shouldn't the senior counsels get fired to make way for the associates - the truth of the matter is that the clients like the senior associates/counsels. One famous CEO used to drag my husband (then a senior associate) everywhere - my husband was not exactly the night life type either - he would introduce him as his lawyer. Even though I think a younger associate would have preferred hitting all those places, he took my overweight , prematurely graying husband with him. He was very perplexed by their relationship. When he was young, the phone calls came from the partners. As he got more and more senior, they came from the clients directly. They call him up at all hours of the day and night (especially the international ones). During the last holiday weekend, the partner was away with no internet access. Husband was in town and had access to the documents. It was very complicated. Partners like to have fun and go on vacation, etc. They rely on senior associates and counsels to cover them during these times so that their clients are happy. How is a first or second year supposed to handle that? I have overheard many a conversation where lawyers are bouncing ideas off of each other - you usually need a decade or so experience with similar cases to have such facility with the law. The partner isn't usually looking for a first or second year to do that, as brilliant as you all may be. Senior associates/counsels also deal with weird crap (some of it very personal). Somehow a middle aged man does not want to have to explain his messy life to a 26 year old - they prefer someone who has a little more life experience. Also, whether you like it or not, the senior counsel may have been there for years. First and second years are still a crap shoot. One fourth year that survived the cut had took a long time to develop. Had the layoffs been a year ago - he would have been gone. Somehow he blossomed last year, and the senior attorneys were very proud of his progress. Believe it or not, they actually enjoy watching someone turn into good lawyer who you can start to trust with more difficult work. A senior counsel who has survived three Big Law firms through famine and fallow may be worthier of keeping than a new hire. They have the brand name law school and also the fortitude to handle the long hours when work picks up again. Also - remember all firms don't hold to the Simpson Thatcher pay scale. A senior counsel at my husband's firm is only making 80K more than even a fifth year at his firm. And they have already begun to cut counsel's salaries - so in the end, they are even worth more. One is very capable of running a deal without a partner looking over their shoulder - the other may/or may have not mastered that skill.
Also, it takes a young associate several hours to do something he can do in one. It doesn't change the clients bill. Sometimes, he has time to hand it off and review and sometimes they need it done right there and now - especially when the first years started taking off at 6:00 at night when there was no work to do. But please get the hoarding fantasies for doc review out of you head - it is not that bad -yet.
The other thing is to network more. When my husband switched to his last firm he was shocked when the partners called him into their weekly meeting during his first week. He thought he had something wrong. Instead he had come up with a solution to a non-legal firm wide problem. He was very frustrated at a problem they had with their computers. Numbers were coming out gobbly gook from one program to another. He went down to the IT department and complained. They said they could do nothing about it - it was a program translation problem. Everything that was coming from another firm (they used Macs) had to re-typed into their system. This was before all of these parallel programs. He is a real computer geek so he went in over the weekend and fixed whatever the problem was. He then showed the IT guys what to do and went back to his desk. The partners were thrilled that they not only got a lawyer but a computer nerd to boot. There was great joy in the room. Now, all the partners come to him when they have a computer problem, need there various Blackberries and iphones set up set up or they are going to purchase a new computer. He has jokingly said he was going to set up a 1-800 number and charge them for it. He wasn't even a computer major - so use those hidden talents and get noticed.
Well, I for one (as a 2L) have a Summer Associate position lined up... but my firm is apparently laying people off now.
Things look bleak. At least I'll make a little cash this summer.
226=Stepford wife. You make me worry for the day that I might get married and you instill fear in in the hearts of man about the institution of marriage. You are a glofied recording device. A lap dog. A pooch with a pouch. I cannot fathom your stupidity because it is alien to me.
This husband of yours wasn't at the birth of his children because he was f*cking his secretary. He missed his wife's surgery because he was f*cking her sister and paying her off not to talk about it. Which is ironic, because he had her gagged during sex.
This website has some dellussion on it, but we are alert to them. You, on the other hand, lead a disturbing life full of the unknown unknowns.
God speed and never, ever, come to this site again.
226, thanks for your insights. i thought that your comments were interesting and appreciated a different perspective.
228, calm the f down.
216's advice is the worst advice EVER. if you are invited out by a senior at your firm, offering to pay for a business lunch would be RUDE and you would look ignorant and unprofessional (not to mention insecure about your job.)
a much better idea would be to order less expensive menu items and save the firm a little money that way (it would probably be more the thought that counts, but show them you understand the economic realities and don't have this sense of "entitlement" everyone accuses lawyers of possessing.)
155- Dead on
168- Clearly a 2L
You really think a Top 10 School is going to reject a Top 10 firm in 3 years because they axed a bunch of their kids this year? You REALLY think your school cares about you that much? Good Stuff...